Mr. HUBERT. I mean first of all when he woke you up.
Mr. CRAFARD. 20 or 25 to 12.
Mr. HUBERT. To 12?
Mr. CRAFARD. Or after 12, to 1, I mean. I think it was something like
that. I’m not sure. I didn’t have a watch on. I didn’t have a watch at
that time.
Mr. HUBERT. You began looking at the television. I suppose from the
time that you woke up plus the time it took you to get dressed, or did
you get dressed?
Mr. CRAFARD. As soon as he woke me up he went in and turned the
television on while I was putting my pants on, putting my clothes on.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what was the first thing you saw on
television?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it a news commentator?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember which one?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the station it was on?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t remember what station it was on, either.
It was one of the local--I believe it was 12 that Dallas-Fort Worth--I
believe that was the station.
Mr. HUBERT. It was a Dallas station or a Fort Worth station?
Mr. CRAFARD. It is one there they call the Dallas-Fort Worth, WWTV12, I
think it is.
Mr. HUBERT. KLRD, is that what it is?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know what station it is. I am not sure whether it
was WWTV.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay there watching?
Mr. CRAFARD. We turned it up real loud where we could hear it and then
listened to his radio, too, where we would hear both of them.
Mr. HUBERT. Go ahead, what happened next?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall exactly what was said except the fact that
the President had been shot.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you continue to watch it?
Mr. CRAFARD. We watched it right up until--most of the day, I think, we
had the television on there, then, most of the day.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you do any of your work?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, I started to clean up. When Jack come in he said not
to. He said, “We’re going to close the club for the weekend.”
Mr. HUBERT. What time did he come in?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was about 2 or 2:30, something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. About 2 hours after, do you think?
Mr. CRAFARD. About that; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what happened, how he looked, what he said and all
that, when he came in?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was like everybody else, shocked.
Mr. HUBERT. How did he manifest that shock?
Mr. CRAFARD. How is that?
Mr. HUBERT. How did he manifest the shock? What did he do or say that
gave you the impression that he was suffering from shock like everybody
else?
Mr. CRAFARD. About the same thing as any of us said. We couldn’t really
believe it.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he crying, for example?
Mr. CRAFARD. He seemed to be very nervous. As far as really being
crying, I couldn’t say for sure he had been crying. He wasn’t crying at
the time, anyway.
Mr. HUBERT. Was his nervousness, or his shock greater than, say, that
which you could observe in Armstrong?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe it was. He was much nervouser than Andy or
I, either one was.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, how did that come across to you, by what he said or
did?
Mr. CRAFARD. It come across that it struck him pretty deep that Kennedy
had been assassinated, had been shot.
Mr. HUBERT. You see you have to get that impression from him in one of
two ways. Either he said something or he did things, and that is what
I want to find out, what he said or he did that creates an impression
that now remains in your mind as being one of more shock than anybody
else, and as you put it, extreme nervousness. You don’t get that
impression except what you saw or you heard.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now that is what I want to find out, because it is one
thing to have your impression but it is another thing to have what
caused your impression.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. He couldn’t believe it had happened.
Mr. HUBERT. He said so?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What else did he do that was out of the ordinary?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was trying to think.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he cry? You said a moment ago he did not.
Mr. CRAFARD. He said it was an outrageous crime, that it would ruin the
city of Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say why, in what way it would ruin it?
Mr. CRAFARD. The fact that the President had been shot there in Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. Would ruin it how?
Mr. CRAFARD. As far as nightclubs, nightclub activity was concerned,
for all nightclubs concerned, it would pretty well pull a lot of the
conventions away, and such as that.
Mr. HUBERT. So that when Ruby came back and expressed his concern about
the shooting of the President, he adverted to the fact that that crime
would hurt Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Would hurt the convention business and would hurt his
business?
Mr. CRAFARD. He just said all nightclubs. He said the nightclub
business in general, I believe, more than his personal business.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he specifically advert to how that would affect the
Carousel and the Vegas?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall.
Andy and I both, I believe it was myself that made the statement that
the guy, whoever had done that, had ought to hang, or something to that
effect, and we was all pretty much in agreement on that subject. Our
agreement on that was about the same.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, in this conference, I call it conference, I
mean meeting that you and Andy and Jack had together, which commenced
about 2 hours after the President’s assassination, you discussed the
fact that it was a terrible crime, that it would hurt the city and the
nightclub business and that the man who did it ought to be punished?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And Jack was a part of that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; we was all pretty much in agreement on that. We
agreed to the fact it would----
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know at that time who had done it or who was
suspected of having done it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that earlier on the news, or something, I
believe they suspected Oswald.
Mr. HUBERT. Had he been mentioned by name?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he had; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That was prior to the time Ruby came in?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so, I’m not definite on that, but I believe so.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, Ruby came in, you are quite sure, about 2 hours after
you heard of it?
Mr. CRAFARD. About 2 hours, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you heard of it at a little after 12:30?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; just shortly after it happened.
Mr. HUBERT. So Jack told you that there is no use cleaning up?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. He said, “We’re going to close the club for the
weekend.”
Mr. HUBERT. What did he propose to do about the cleaning up job as to
the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just leave it go until Monday.
Mr. HUBERT. Just let it stay as it was until Monday?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And he so told you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Had he made up his mind at that time to close the club for
the entire weekend?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he just said for Friday and Saturday night at
that time. He said something about cleaning up later on, or something,
and then he come back later and he left.
Mr. HUBERT. Let’s see, how long did he stay, before we get to this
point?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was there maybe a half hour or 45 minutes.
Mr. HUBERT. What else did he do there besides converse with you as you
have already testified?
Mr. CRAFARD. That was about it right there, I guess.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any phone calls?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he called his sister. I’m not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember that, yourself, or do you think perhaps you
picked that up from reading about it somewhere?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I believe that he called his sister on the phone right
by the front door.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean that is the public phone?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. We had three business phones on the same line in the
club.
Mr. HUBERT. The same number, you mean?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, with the same number.
Mr. HUBERT. But there were different lines, you could make different
calls from them?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. There was one phone with three extensions then?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Two extensions?
Mr. CRAFARD. Two extensions.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there a public phone there, too?
Mr. CRAFARD. The public phone was in the back in the hallway. I believe
he called his sister from the front door phone there and talked to her
and he told her he was coming over, or something.
Mr. HUBERT. You overheard that?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was either at that time or later in the afternoon when
he come back.
Mr. HUBERT. On that first time that he was there, which was from 2:30
to about 3:15--would that be a fair estimate?
Mr. CRAFARD. About 3:15 or 3:30, or something.
Mr. HUBERT. Let’s do this. You mentioned a moment ago that he came in
about 2:30 and stayed about a half hour to three-quarters of an hour.
He came at 2:30 and left at about 3:30.
Then there is a possibility he stayed there an hour on his first visit.
Mr. CRAFARD. He might have been there anywhere between a half hour and
three-quarters of an hour.
Mr. HUBERT. Anyway, roughly between 3 and 3:30 is when he left?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And during that period he made one phone call, or you are
not sure of that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not positive. I think he did, but I am not positive.
Mr. HUBERT. If it should turn out that he did not call his sister on
that occasion, do you recall any other phone calls that he made during
the first visit?
Mr. CRAFARD. I’m not sure. It seems like there was a phone call to his
brother or something that he called long distance either then or later
in the day or something.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you know he had called long distance?
Mr. CRAFARD. Because he had me get the address, get the number or
something. He had me give him the phone number.
Mr. HUBERT. Of which brother?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was the brother in Chicago--in Detroit, the
Cobo Laundry.
Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about Earl, aren’t you?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that is right.
Mr. HUBERT. He did not have Earl’s number?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had it, he had it in his book at home, and I had it
wrote down in the book of phone numbers there in the office.
Mr. HUBERT. And you then gave him the number, or dialed for him?
Mr. CRAFARD. I gave it to him, I believe, and he dialed it.
Mr. HUBERT. You were present when he dialed?
Mr. CRAFARD. Andy and I were both there in the main part of the club
where he was at.
Mr. HUBERT. There was no one else in the club at that time?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; just Andy and I.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know why he didn’t use his office phone?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I have no idea, except that during the day when there
was nobody else there he would more frequently use the front phone
than he would the office phone. We’d been out there talking. We could
all three--he’d have the table space to work and everything, count his
money out, figure out the papers, and everything.
Mr. HUBERT. You are unable to fix the time of that call to his brother,
is that right?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. When did he come back after having left at, roughly,
between 3 and 3:30?
Mr. CRAFARD. He come back about, I believe, about 4:30 or 5 o’clock.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to say that he was gone about an hour to an hour
and a half?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I would say so. He asked me if I wanted to go to his
sister’s with him. He made quite a point of it, and I told him I’d
prefer to stay at the club.
Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean by making quite a point of it?
Mr. CRAFARD. He asked me two or three times about it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did it strike you as odd?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; it just struck me as if he kind of wanted me to go. He
thought it wouldn’t be--didn’t think it would be very good for me to
stay there at the club by myself.
Mr. HUBERT. Why not?
Mr. CRAFARD. I have no idea.