Mr. HUBERT. What was her name?
Mr. CRAFARD. I can’t remember that girl’s name. I can’t remember the
girl’s name. She was a woman of about 29 years old, she had a real nice
personality and was a wonderful person to talk to, all it was, just
nice person to talk to and relax and just have an enjoyable time away
from the club.
Mr. HUBERT. That was the one who was the waitress?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; she was a cocktail waitress at the club. I knew
her and her one girl friend were from back east somewhere and I met
Norma back at the club.
Mr. HUBERT. Had Norma ever worked for the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. Jack was trying to get her to work for the club, was
trying to get her to work as a stripper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is Norma the girl you dated or saw quite a bit of?
Mr. CRAFARD. I saw her on two or three occasions before this other girl
went to work for Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And Norma is not a native of Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. She is a native of the Dallas area. Her home is about 20
miles north of Dallas, Carrollton, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever go out there?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I never went out there.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you know it was out there? How did you find out?
Mr. CRAFARD. She give me her address, address and phone number.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have that in the book you maintained for Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. That was the reason for getting the phone and address. She
called and inquired for a job, and I got her address and phone number
which I do with all girls who come for a job.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you know Jack tried to get her to be a stripper?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had her at the club on several occasions talking her
into being a stripper. He got her a job with Ralph Paul and he give her
clothes and he gave her money and I went over with her to one store
where to buy clothes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack bought her the clothes?
Mr. CRAFARD. He give me the money to buy the clothes.
Mr. HUBERT. How much was the amount?
Mr. CRAFARD. $10 bill, I believe, at that time. Two or three times he
bought clothes for the girl.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Ten dollar bill?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. She couldn’t buy much with a $10 bill.
Mr. CRAFARD. She needed certain kinds of clothes, slacks and a blouse
to work in when she went to work for Ralph Paul.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what work she had been doing before she came
to work for Paul?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; all I know she had been on several occasions in the
club with Jack. They were pretty thick for a while, and then something
happened between them to where she wouldn’t have anything to do with
Jack.
Mr. HUBERT. But you don’t know what it was that happened?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I have no definite knowledge.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have some idea?
Mr. CRAFARD. I have an opinion; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us an idea?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was making a big play for her, and my opinion is he got
out of hand and she put a stop to it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything else said by someone else that led you
to believe it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Mostly she referred to it. She inferred it happened.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What would be getting out of hand in that situation, would
it be simply Jack wanting to go to bed with her or would it be some
unusual kind of sexual relations?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I would say wanting to go to bed with her as far as my
knowledge. From what I knew of Norma she was a pretty decent girl. She
was a little wild but she was a fairly decent girl.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How old a girl would you say she was?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe Norma was 18. She was a very friendly person,
easy to like.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have a girl who worked at the Eatwell Restaurant
that you dated?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. But you did go to the Eatwell Restaurant on Main Street, I
think it was?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was on Commerce.
Mr. HUBERT. Commerce.
Mr. CRAFARD. I went there most of the time for my meals. It was, meals
were cheap, nice place to go to, it was close, and I sat around there
and joked with the girls and the one guy who worked in there I got
acquainted with him a little bit.
Mr. HUBERT. How many girls in the club went there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe the girls in the club went there to eat
often.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Huey Reeves?
Mr. CRAFARD. The name isn’t familiar to me.
Mr. HUBERT. Would it help you if I suggested that he worked at the
Nichol’s Garage next door?
Mr. CRAFARD. That would be the colored boy, I believe.
Mr. HUBERT. No; this was a white man.
Mr. CRAFARD. On a couple of occasions I sat in there and talked to him
a couple of nights. We would sit in there and talk, maybe have a beer
or two.
Mr. HUBERT. Beer or two where? At the Eatwell?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; the garage. In the office.
Mr. HUBERT. While you were there, who do you think were Ruby’s best
friends other than his business acquaintances?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, man, the man I seen him with mostly was Senator, that
I know of him being was Senator, and Ralph Paul.
Mr. HUBERT. What about girl friends?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had one girl, I believe her name was Linda or
something, she was a blond, she was a real nice looking girl that he
went with quite a few times.
Mr. HUBERT. Was she a stripper?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; she didn’t work for him.
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know her first name?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not positive of her name. I don’t recall her name.
Names is something to me that doesn’t mean much. I meet so many people.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the two fellows who ran the Eatwell
Restaurant?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not too well.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there a couple of older men?
Mr. CRAFARD. One older man that worked behind the counter in the
evenings.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack also eat at the Eatwell?
Mr. CRAFARD. He didn’t eat there when I was there with him, after I
went to work for him. I understood the guy knew Jack real well, in fact
he got in the habit of calling me Jack Ruby, Jr., or Little Ruby, in a
kind of teasing manner. He was a very friendly person.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that the older man?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was an older man; I believe the oldest man that I saw
there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t recall his name, first name, do you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t recall his first name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was one of the fellows in there called Jimmy, that you
recall?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I recall. There is one of those messes of
pictures I would like to get hold of. There is one side of them I would
just as soon get ahold of and tear up.
(Brief recess.)
Mr. HUBERT. You previously mentioned that there was a girl that Jack
went out with socially.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did I understand you correctly that you said she did not
work at the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. How often did he go out with her, to your knowledge?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know how often. It was quite often.
Mr. HUBERT. How would it come to your attention that he was going out
with her?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, usually he would bring her in to the club with him
before they would go, and after his club closed he would take her out
to dinner.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go out to dinner with them?
Mr. CRAFARD. On one occasion, I was at the Vegas, we went over to the
Vegas Club, and then the three of us went afterwards and had dinner.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you know other than that one occasion when he went
out with her that he took her to dinner?
Mr. CRAFARD. He would say that they was going to be taking her out to
dinner.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see her at his apartment?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever indicate in any way that she did go to his
apartment?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; not to my knowledge.
Mr. HUBERT. I am going to show you what I am marking five photographs
on which I am writing as follows: “Washington, D.C., April 8, 1964,
Exhibit 5200-A, Deposition of C. L. Crafard.” And I am signing my name
below there. On the next picture I am also marking, “Washington, D.C.,
April 8, 1964, Exhibit 5200-B, Deposition of C. L. Crafard,” and I am
placing my name below that. The third picture I am marking “Washington,
D.C., April 8, 1964, Exhibit 5200-C, Deposition of C. L. Crafard,”
and signing my name below that. On the fourth picture I am marking
“Washington, D.C., April 8, 1964, Exhibit 5200-D, Deposition of C. L.
Crafard,” and marking my name down on that; and on the fifth picture I
am marking “Washington, D.C., April 8, 1964, Exhibit 5200-E, Deposition
of C. L. Crafard” and signing my name.
(The pictures referred to were marked Exhibits Nos. 5200-A through E
for identification.)
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I ask you to look at the pictures which have been
marked for identification as follows: Exhibits 5200-A, 5200-B, 5200-C,
5200-D, and 5200-E, and I ask you if in any one or all of those
pictures you can see the girl we have just been talking about, to wit,
the girl that Jack took out to dinner and otherwise met socially?
Mr. CRAFARD. Her picture is in every one.
Mr. HUBERT. Her picture is in every one?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you identify the one that you are talking about by
referring to her dress?
Mr. CRAFARD. In Exhibit A it would be the middle girl wearing a red and
white striped dress.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember if it was red and white?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t remember the color, but it seems to me it
would be a stripe, something that people would wear.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, do you remember ever seeing that girl in a red and
white dress similar to that dress?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe she was in the club one time with a red and
white checkered dress on.
Mr. HUBERT. Not stripes like that?