Mr. CRAFARD. He knew them. They were acquainted.
Mr. HUBERT. They were acquainted?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You could tell that from the conversation?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, they just walked up to each other and shook hands and
called each other by the first name.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the substance of the conversation?
Mr. CRAFARD. Mostly the conversation had to do with a twistboard
exerciser that Ruby was trying to promote.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, go ahead.
Mr. CRAFARD. And he was there for about a half, 45 minutes that
evening, and it was 2 or 3 days later before I saw him again.
Mr. HUBERT. Before you go on, would you tell us how long after you
joined the fair did you first see this man Ruby?
Mr. CRAFARD. About 2 or 3 days, about 2 days after I joined the fair.
Mr. HUBERT. That would be about 2 days after the fair opened.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And the second time you saw him was about 3 days after that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the occasion of seeing him the second time?
Mr. CRAFARD. He came out there to talk to Mr. Miles and Mr. Craven.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you overhear that conversation?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what was the purpose of the conversation?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe Mr. Miles--he had brought some props, a couple
of prop chairs, some chairs used for props and a mirror used for a prop
to be used.
Mr. HUBERT. Jack Ruby brought that out to them?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What was his interest in this fair?
Mr. CRAFARD. I had no idea.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any financial interest?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had some financial interest there.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Mr. Craven had told me, we had been talking and he told me
that Ruby had some financial interest in it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate what it was about, how much?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, did Ruby put up money?
Mr. CRAFARD. From what I understood he had put up some money.
Mr. HUBERT. How much?
Mr. CRAFARD. I have no idea.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear Mr. Craven or Mr. Miles talk about what
percentage he might have in the interests of the project?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; whenever I was around Mr. Craven and Mr. Miles I
was pretty busy working most of the time.
Mr. HUBERT. And you lived in the tent all the time?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any friends in Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. There was a few people that I know there.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you name them?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, at that time there was as far as I knew my
brother-in-law, John Case, lived in Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. He still did?
Mr. CRAFARD. And there was a few members of the church my wife and I
went to still in Dallas there.
Mr. HUBERT. Who were they?
Mr. CRAFARD. Brother Lee Cooksey and Robert Roskydall I believe it is.
Mr. HUBERT. Who else?
Mr. CRAFARD. And that was about the only ones I knew around there right
then. I met some people during that fair.
Mr. HUBERT. As to these people you have named, how close a relationship
did you develop?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just church members together.
Mr. HUBERT. What church was that?
Mr. CRAFARD. General Assembly and Church of the First Born.
Mr. HUBERT. Where is it located?
Mr. CRAFARD. Out North Dallas is all I can give you.
Mr. HUBERT. Was this State fair project called, “How Hollywood Makes
Movies,” a success financially?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; it was an absolute failure.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean people didn’t flock to it?
Mr. CRAFARD. We went bankrupt, they went broke.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean they closed before the fair closed?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; it was only open for about a week. I had heard
rumors to the effect that Mr. Craven had wrote a lot of bad checks to
start with.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you paid any salary by them?
Mr. CRAFARD. Mostly about all I got from them was expenses. It was
supposed to be $5 a day but about all I got was my meals and cigarettes
furnished.
Mr. HUBERT. You got money from them?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, did it actually close its doors and stop operating
before the fair closed?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; about a week, it only ran about a week.
Mr. HUBERT. And the fair lasted how long?
Mr. CRAFARD. 2 weeks. When they left it was another outfit come in
there with a dance band.
Mr. HUBERT. When you say, “come in there,” you mean took over the space?
Mr. CRAFARD. Took over the space in the same tent.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you stay with that outfit?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I stayed with that outfit.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the name of it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe they even had a real name for it.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us some of the people who were connected with it.
Mr. CRAFARD. Let’s see. I can’t even--there was Big Jess, he was one of
the big shots around the State fair there.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he a musician?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; he owns two or three rides on the fair grounds,
permanent rides on the Dallas Texas State Fair Grounds.
Mr. HUBERT. How was he connected with the organization that took the
place of the other one?
Mr. CRAFARD. He took up the lease, the rent on the tent, on the space,
and had this other outfit come in.
Mr. HUBERT. The other outfit I take it was a band?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; musical band.
Mr. HUBERT. How many pieces were there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Let’s see, I believe it was three- and four-piece band.
Mr. HUBERT. How was it supposed to make money?
Mr. CRAFARD. Charged 50 cents to get in.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean to listen to the music?
Mr. CRAFARD. Mostly listen to the music.
Mr. HUBERT. What else?
Mr. CRAFARD. They had some couples on stage dancing.
Mr. HUBERT. They had some what?
Mr. CRAFARD. They had some couples on stage dancing.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean couples from the audience?
Mr. CRAFARD. At first and then they wouldn’t allow them to have couples
on the stage from the audience any more so they hired a couple of
dancers.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did they hire them from?
Mr. CRAFARD. Girls around the fairgrounds.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they get any from Ruby’s place?
Mr. CRAFARD. One of the girls came out from Ruby’s place.
Mr. HUBERT. What was her name?
Mr. CRAFARD. Joy Dale.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Dale?
Mr. CRAFARD. Dale. I don’t know her real name. Her first name was Joyce
from what I understood.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you recognize the name Joyce McDonald?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was her last name, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But her stage name was Joy, not Joyce?
Mr. CRAFARD. Joy Dale.
Mr. HUBERT. What kind of a dance did she do?
Mr. CRAFARD. About all she done was worked out front. She would get out
front and more than anything just stand around out there. She would
come out originally to help this “How Hollywood Makes Movies” setup.
They used her as an attraction piece.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Ruby bring her out there then?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe the first time she came out there I believe Jack
brought her out there and introduced her to Miles and Craven.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack have any interest in the second organization?
Mr. CRAFARD. To my knowledge, no. Except that he knew the man who was
managing the setup there.
Mr. HUBERT. And you have given us his name, I think already.
Mr. CRAFARD. Dusty was the name of the guy who was managing it. He was
another carnival, carnie. He was managing it, Jess was backing it but
Dusty was managing it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know Dusty’s last name?
Mr. CRAFARD. I can’t recall it.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did he live?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know--let’s see, I think his home was somewhere in
Ohio.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he stay with the organization until the end of it?
Mr. CRAFARD. He stayed with the organization until the law closed them
down.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that.
Mr. CRAFARD. The stage dancers got, the last day they was getting,
pretty wild.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean the last day of the fair?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; the last day they was open. It was 2 or 3 days before
the fair closed, they were getting pretty wild.
Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean by that?
Mr. CRAFARD. With their dancing; it was getting real sexy.
Mr. HUBERT. It wasn’t a striptease, was it?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; more than anything they were using the “Dirty Dog,”
and it can be made so filthy that it will almost turn a person’s
stomach if they do it right.
Mr. HUBERT. Do they actually use dogs in this dance?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; it is a dance called, “The Dog,” but they have got
what they call, “The Dirty Dog,” too.
Mr. HUBERT. How many girls were involved in that?
Mr. CRAFARD. There were two girls and one guy.
Mr. HUBERT. One of those girls was the girl called Joy Dale?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. What was she doing at that time?
Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I know Joy was just working at the club,
Carousel Club at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. She wasn’t connected with the show at the fair?
Mr. CRAFARD. She hadn’t been out there but about one time after the
dance outfit took over.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the names of the girls on the stage?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember their names.
Mr. HUBERT. Had they come from Jack Ruby?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that?
Mr. CRAFARD. They met them on the fairgrounds. They put an ad and the
girls contacted them.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Ruby come around to that second thing?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was around a couple of times.
Mr. HUBERT. A couple of times?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he stay very long?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I could notice.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was he with?
Mr. CRAFARD. Mostly by himself when he came out there.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you get to know him?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, just a couple of times talking to him around the
fairgrounds there and he gave me a free pass into his club any time I
wanted to go in.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go in?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not until after the fair closed when I went to work for
Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. How much money did you make at the fair altogether?
Mr. CRAFARD. Altogether at the fair all I made was expenses.
Mr. HUBERT. As I understood you had very little when you got there.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. So that when the fair closed you were just about flat broke.
Mr. CRAFARD. I was flat broke.
Mr. HUBERT. What happened after the fair closed?
Mr. CRAFARD. Ruby hired me then to tear some lumber down, a stage he
had had there at the tent. He brought the lumber out of it and he had
me tear that down and clean it up.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course, the thing had been closed for 2 days before the
fair closed itself?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And I don’t suppose it reopened in any other fashion?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did it take you to do the job that Ruby hired you
for?
Mr. CRAFARD. About 4 hours all told.
Mr. HUBERT. And this stuff was moved?
Mr. CRAFARD. Moved to the Carousel Club, downstairs in the Carousel
Club where it was stored.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have anything to do with the moving?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; helped move the lumber and clean it up.
Mr. HUBERT. Then your original employment by Ruby was for that job
alone?
Mr. CRAFARD. When he hired me he said he had that for me that I could
do and then he said I could stay, he wanted me to stay at the club that
night, and the next day he talked to me and he had me stay with him.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about your arrangement with Ruby?
Mr. CRAFARD. Mostly, there was no set salary, any time I needed salary
I put a draw slip in the till and take it out of the till.
Mr. HUBERT. What were you supposed to do?
Mr. CRAFARD. Help clean the club up, work the lights on the girls on
stage, answer the phone calls, answer the phone when he wasn’t there.
Work on the bar if they needed me or anything like that.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you did almost anything you were asked to
do?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you live at that time?
Mr. CRAFARD. I stayed at the Carousel Club.
Mr. HUBERT. What accommodations did they have for sleeping and so on?
Mr. CRAFARD. We had a room with a cot in it.
Mr. HUBERT. Whose room was it?
Mr. CRAFARD. It had been at one time a dressing room for one of the
stars he had in there, Jada, a stripper by the name of Jada.
Mr. HUBERT. Was she there when you first went there?
Mr. CRAFARD. When I first went there; yes. At that time I slept in
Jack’s office.
Mr. HUBERT. Then when you first went to the Carousel you slept in
Jack’s office?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there a cot there, too?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had a couch in his office.
Mr. HUBERT. When you first went there it was the day the fair closed or
the day after?
Mr. CRAFARD. The day after the fair closed.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the date of that?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t remember the date.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay--strike that.
How long did you sleep in Jack’s office?
Mr. CRAFARD. For about a week.
Mr. HUBERT. And then you moved into Jada’s room?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Or dressing room, that is after she had gone?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, after she had gone.
Mr. HUBERT. And you stayed there until you left finally?
Mr. CRAFARD. I left the 23d of November, I believe it was.
Mr. HUBERT. What were your hours there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Any hours. I would just get up, I usually got up about
8 o’clock in the morning and I would be lucky if I would get to bed
before 3:30, 4 o’clock.
Mr. HUBERT. How come you would get up so early?
Mr. CRAFARD. Get the club cleaned up.
Mr. HUBERT. Wasn’t there a man to help?
Mr. CRAFARD. I took care of that mostly myself.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Howard who used to do that
stuff?
Mr. CRAFARD. Howard was a maintenance man.
Mr. HUBERT. What did he do?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just maintenance, upkeep of the building.
Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t do the actual janitorial work?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Cleaning up the cigarettes and that sort of thing?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had a young fellow by the name of Andrew who was his
assistant manager.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that Andrew Armstrong?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. When I first went there, Andrew was doing the
cleaning up and then I started helping him, and then I had been there
for about 2 weeks and I was doing all the cleaning up by myself.
Mr. HUBERT. The club usually closed you say about 2 or 3 in the morning?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; the club usually closed, I believe it was 1:30 or 2
o’clock in the morning the club closed.
Mr. HUBERT. You would get to bed about 2:30 or 3 o’clock?
Mr. CRAFARD. Before everybody got out of there it would be 2:30, 3
o’clock.
Mr. HUBERT. Then you went to bed?
Mr. CRAFARD. Then I went to bed.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did the cleaning up job usually take?
Mr. CRAFARD. If I started cleaning up at 9 o’clock I would be finished
by 11:30.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you had 2½ hours?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you then usually free?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. Jack would come in about 11:30 and be there 2 or 3
hours. After he left I had to stay there and answer the phone.
Mr. HUBERT. The club wasn’t open then, was it?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, the club didn’t open until 7:30 at night.
Mr. HUBERT. So your duties were to clean up as soon as you got up and
that took 2½ or 3 hours and then just to stay there answering phone
calls?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go to eat?
Mr. CRAFARD. Most of the time I eat at the Walgreen drugstore
catercornered across the street.
Mr. HUBERT. And you say you just took some money out of the cash
register for that purpose?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack permit you to do that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, he told me; otherwise, I wouldn’t have done so.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any limitation on how much to take?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. How much did it amount to?
Mr. CRAFARD. It usually amounted to $4, $5, maybe $6 a day, what with
my cigarettes and what I ate.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any time off for yourself at all?
Mr. CRAFARD. A couple of nights after the club closed we went out
to, he took us out to, the Vegas Club. We were out there until about
3 o’clock in the morning. And I had a couple of times I could, Andy
was around the club and I could take off in the afternoon if Andy was
around the club.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the purpose of keeping you around the club after
your cleanup job was over?
Mr. CRAFARD. So far as I understand just mostly answer the phone.
Mr. HUBERT. Were there many phone calls to be answered?
Mr. CRAFARD. There was quite a few that would come in--generally,
usually, people calling in, would start calling in about 1 o’clock for
reservations.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack give you any instructions as to how you could
handle the phone calls?
Mr. CRAFARD. He told me to answer the phone and ask them what they
wanted, and if they had a message for Jack so they could give me a
number for him to call back. If they had a reservation, how to take a
reservation.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have to make notations about it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, I had a notebook there at the club.
Mr. HUBERT. So that when he called in you would just tell him who had
called?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he sometimes give you instructions as to things you
were to do?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not unless it was--a couple of times he told me to feed
the dogs or something like that--when he would call in, he would ask me
if I fed the dogs.
Mr. HUBERT. Where were they kept?
Mr. CRAFARD. They were kept in a room behind the kitchen area, a
storeroom.
Mr. HUBERT. How many were there?
Mr. CRAFARD. When I first went there he had two dogs at the club and
then his Sheba that he kept with him all the time.
Mr. HUBERT. You say when you first went he had that many dogs, did that
change during the time you were there?
Mr. CRAFARD. About a week before the assassination, a man that he had
given the dog to brought the dog back and Jack gave me instructions to
check the freight prices to California, a friend of his out there had
wanted the dog, and he was going to send it out there. So he gave me
instructions to check the freight, how to ship it, and about the crate
and food and everything for the dog--to ship it.
Mr. HUBERT. For a period then there were three dogs there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that dog ever shipped to California?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not while I was there; no, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what the man’s name was who the dog was to be
shipped to in California?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what place in California?
Mr. CRAFARD. Los Angeles, I believe it was.
Mr. HUBERT. You had to check that to get the rates?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you ever seen that man to whom it was to be shipped?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not as far as I--I am not positive I had seen him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have some idea you might have seen him?
Mr. CRAFARD. There was a couple of friends of Jack’s there from
California while I was there and it might have been one of them.
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know their names?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t remember their names.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when they were at Jack’s place?
Mr. CRAFARD. As I say, I believe it was about the second or third week
I was there with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there--you say there were a couple of fellows?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Two or three or how many?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think they come at different times, I believe there
was one guy come in one time and then about a week--3 or 4 days later
another guy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But they were both there together for a while?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Do you remember anything about the first man who
came?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I couldn’t even identify him if he was to stand
in front of me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he spend a lot of time around the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. He wasn’t there too much during the day.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would he come as a patron or was he working when he was
there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he came in as a guest of Jack’s, a house guest.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you introduced to him, ever introduced to him?
Mr. CRAFARD. Jack introduced me to him the day he came in. I don’t
remember his name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever learn anything about what he did for a living?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The second man who came, were you introduced to him?
Mr. CRAFARD. More likely I was, but I don’t recall him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall at all what he looked like, the second man?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall at all what the first man looked like?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don’t; I saw so many people around the club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The second man who came, how long did he stay?
Mr. CRAFARD. Saw him around, I think, two different days, two days in a
row that he was in the club with Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he come at night or during the day?
Mr. CRAFARD. During the day that I saw him. He might have been there at
night but I didn’t notice him if he was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you pick up that his business might have been
there?
Mr. CRAFARD. All I figured, all I knew, was that he had come to see
Jack.
Mr. HUBERT. You never heard them conversing?
Mr. CRAFARD. When Jack was talking to somebody I pretty much made it a
habit to step back where I couldn’t hear the conversation.
Mr. HUBERT. Why did you do that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I have done that every since I can recall. When I was
younger I worked for a fellow and he started talking to somebody and I
would stay right there and he got kind of angry a couple of times; so,
since then, I have made it a habit to step back where I can’t hear the
conversation that is being held.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear from Andy Armstrong or anybody else
anything about either of these two men?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall.
Mr. HUBERT. What makes the visit of these two men a part of your memory
now?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just that it was shortly before he had the dogs brought
back to him, and he asked me to make arrangements to ship them to
California. I believe they were from Los Angeles.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the fact that you were making preparations
to ship the dogs to California, and that they were from California, is
the fact that causes you to associate the two, and to remember those
two men?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that all?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is all I can think of causing the association.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall, Larry, if at any time Jack had a
photographer at the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; he did for publicity purposes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where that photographer was from?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any--how long was this photographer there?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was around there for 3 or 4 days in the evening before
the show was going on. I believe he was from a magazine.
Mr. HUBERT. Was his name Eddie Rocco?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this one of the two men you have been talking about
from California or were these two men different, from California?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall; it might have been. He might have been
from California. But these two men were not photographers. They come
in, it looked to me, it appeared to me to be businessmen, fellows----
Mr. HUBERT. Did they have long conversations with Ruby?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not in my presence. Not when they were around the club.
They was never in the club with him more than 5 or 10 minutes when they
were there.
Mr. HUBERT. What would happen, they would come in and talk to him?
Mr. CRAFARD. They would come in and he might have some phone calls to
make or something and they would stay there while he made the phone
calls and then they would leave.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where they went?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack would go out with them?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice how long they stayed?
Mr. CRAFARD. I wouldn’t know how long they would stay with Jack. He
might take off at 11 o’clock in the morning and wouldn’t be back all
day.
Mr. HUBERT. What I mean is, do you have any recollection of seeing him
leave with one of those men or either of them and then come back with
them?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall him doing so. He might have.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you any recollection that having left with one of
those men he came back alone and particularly at what time or how much
longer did he come back alone, how much later did he come back alone?
Mr. CRAFARD. I have no recollection of that either. He was--people
would come to the club to see him, he would go downstairs, leave with
them, and sometimes he would be gone the rest of the afternoon or
sometimes he would come back.
Mr. HUBERT. What we would like you to tell us is, what there was about
these two men from California that makes their visits there still a
part of your memory.
Mr. CRAFARD. Just the fact that shipping the dogs to California, I kind
of more or less associated the fact and that they were from Los Angeles.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever gather where they were staying while they were
in Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. Who usually woke you up in the morning over there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Jack would usually call me in the morning.
Mr. HUBERT. About what time?
Mr. CRAFARD. Anywhere from 8 o’clock on.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any other way of waking up?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not unless Andrew would come by.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there an arrangement that one of them would wake you so
you might commence your work?
Mr. CRAFARD. Jack would usually call me in the morning as soon as he
got up.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Armstrong call you sometimes?
Mr. CRAFARD. A couple of times Andy would call me.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Ralph Paul?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you come to know him?
Mr. CRAFARD. Jack introduced me to him at the club.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he there often?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was there about six or seven times that I can recall. I
believe he was a business associate of Jack’s.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you find that out?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had a drive-in setup, drive-in cafe.
Mr. HUBERT. Where?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was out northeastern Texas, somewhere,
Dallas, northeastern part of Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. And you say Jack told you he had an interest in it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Jack said they were associated. He called him his partner
all the time.
Mr. HUBERT. Did the man come on particular days of the week or just at
random?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. Never knew when he was going to come.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see Jack give him any money?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it correct to state then that all you know about whether
Paul was or was not an associate is what Jack told you?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. You observed nothing of your own that would indicate that
the man had some property interest in that club or some financial
interest?
Mr. CRAFARD. Other than the fact that when he did come Jack and him
would go into the office, almost every time he would come they would be
in the office, from a half hour to 2 or 3 hours at a time talking.
Mr. HUBERT. But you didn’t know about what?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, I didn’t know about what.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack keep any books?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of books did he keep?
Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I know it was just his receipts and regular tax,
regular books, business books.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean ledgers?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Who made the entries in them?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was either Jack Ruby or Andrew. He had an accountant do
all his bookkeeping.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember who he was.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he was over the place one time while I was there
during the day.
Mr. HUBERT. But you don’t know his name?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. He asked for the books?
Mr. CRAFARD. Andy give him some papers.
Mr. HUBERT. Papers or books?
Mr. CRAFARD. Some of the receipts, bar receipts and door receipts.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see Jack and Ralph Paul go over any books
together?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. I just says whenever they was together like that they
would be together in the office, the office door would be locked and
they would do talking. It was usually during when--during the evening
when the club was in operation and I would be out front.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Eva Grant?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is she?
Mr. CRAFARD. She was Jack Ruby’s sister.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you come to meet her?
Mr. CRAFARD. I first met her at the fairgrounds, Jack first introduced
me at the fairgrounds and then later I met her at the club.
Mr. HUBERT. How often did you see her?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I saw Eva about four times.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you get to know her as a person?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not too well.
Mr. HUBERT. On those four occasions how long were you in her company?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just for a few minutes at a time.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she have any interest in Ruby’s affairs?
Mr. CRAFARD. She managed the Vegas Club for Jack.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she have an interest in the Carousel so far as you know?
Mr. CRAFARD. So far as I know; no.
Mr. HUBERT. Jack never told you that she did?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; as far as I knew the Carousel Club was Jack’s as far
as I knew.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us a physical description of her, how tall
was she, how heavy was she?
Mr. CRAFARD. She is an oldish woman, probably weighs maybe 130, 135
pounds, stands probably right around 5′6″, I would say.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So she is not a heavy woman?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not exceptionally heavy, no. For her age she is a real
nice-looking woman.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know her age?
Mr. CRAFARD. How is that?
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know her age?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, but I believe she is Jack’s older sister.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you get that information, from Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, from the way he talked. He had one older sister and
a younger sister, and I met the family, the rest of his family at the
trial and the other sister was younger than Jack, I knew that.
Mr. HUBERT. You have been to the Vegas, haven’t you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, yes; I was in the Vegas Club on several occasions.
Mr. HUBERT. You worked there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Two nights that I run the Vegas Club myself. One night I
was the only one there. The next night I had a waitress there with me.
Mr. HUBERT. You stated that she was the manager of the Vegas Club for
Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you get that information?
Mr. CRAFARD. Jack said she was managing the club for him.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you there when she was there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was there a couple of evenings after the Carousel Club
closed we went over there to Vegas Club and she was there.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of George Senator?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was he?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was a friend of Jack’s he was with Jack quite often.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, how often?
Mr. CRAFARD. He would come into the club with Jack three or four times
a week anyway.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean when they would come in at night or in the
afternoon this man Senator would be with him?
Mr. CRAFARD. It would be maybe during the day or maybe in the evenings.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you give us a description of him?
Mr. CRAFARD. He is a kind of heavy-set fellow about 5′4″, 5′5″.
Mr. HUBERT. A very short man?
Mr. CRAFARD. Fairly short. Wasn’t much taller than Jack. He probably
would, I would say, probably would weigh about 180, 185.
Mr. HUBERT. Fat or husky?
Mr. CRAFARD. Kind of on the fat side.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a limp?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he did, I am not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything else about the relationship between
him and Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe him and Jack, he was rooming with Jack, I
believe.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you ever at Jack’s apartment?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was over to Jack’s apartment on two different occasions.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see then any evidence that they were living
together?
Mr. CRAFARD. The only thing I knew for certain when I was over there
there was a two-bedroom apartment living room, kitchen and two bedrooms
and he told me that one bedroom was George’s room.
Mr. HUBERT. Ruby told you that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see George at the apartment?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall.
Mr. HUBERT. You only went there twice?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I was there three times all told. I was there
for a few minutes and then leave.
Mr. HUBERT. And you never saw Senator at the club--at the apartment?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if Senator had any financial interest in Jack’s
affairs?
Mr Crafard. Not that I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he work for Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he was on the door a little bit, several times.
Mr. HUBERT. What does working on the door mean?
Mr. CRAFARD. He took the door price, he took the cover charge at the
door.
Mr. HUBERT. How about a man named Bill DeMar, do you know him?
Mr. CRAFARD. Bill DeMar was a comedian.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he there when you were there?
Mr. CRAFARD. He came in while I was there, Jack hired him to come in.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did he stay?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think he was there yet when the club was closed, I
believe.
Mr. HUBERT. What sort of a fellow was he?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was kind of an easygoing guy. Like most of your real
good comedians, he was cracking a joke all the time.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I gather from what you have told us about your life
you can size these people up pretty well.
Mr. CRAFARD. I haven’t only been wrong with my opinion once. I formed
an opinion of a person with the first six or seven words they say and I
have never been wrong in my life but once.
Mr. HUBERT. What do you think of Bill DeMar as to his truthfulness?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was a kind of a likable guy but to me he just didn’t
strike me, I didn’t like him. I got along with him, I associated with
him at the club but I wouldn’t want to associate with him as a close
friend.