Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to Ruby about it afterwards?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear Ruby say anything about it afterwards?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; Wally and I discussed it.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the nature of that discussion?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I was teasing him about his right hook.
Mr. HUBERT. His what?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. His right hook.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean he hit the guy pretty good?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. You see, Wally split his hand open and I got some
band-aids and bandaged it up a little bit and helped him clean it off.
Mr. HUBERT. Where is Wally Weston now?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Where is he?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I don’t know--he was working at the Club Montemarte,
but he’s not there any more and I’m sure he’s not in town now, so he’s
probably on the road some place.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember any other people who were there that night,
such as George Senator or Ralph Paul?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; things like that I don’t try to remember.
Mr. HUBERT. When did Weston leave, do you remember?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, let’s see, Wally left in September, I think.
Mr. HUBERT. And how long had he been there?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He had been there since about June 1961--no, 1962, I’m
sorry.
Mr. HUBERT. He was there about 15 months, but you thought that it was
in the last month that he was there?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; somewhere right around the last few months he was
there.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, if he left in September--you thought earlier than
that--it might be, this incident might have occurred in August, if
that’s the case, it wouldn’t be then?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, when he left there--he still had that scar--it was
still sort of open a little bit on his hand, and it hadn’t been healed
up--well, it had healed, but it was such a big gash and you could still
see the print where they took the stitches out.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have to go to the hospital?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He had some stitches taken in his hand.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us anything from your own knowledge, that is
having heard or seen things at the club, which would throw light upon
Ruby’s attitude toward the race question, the Jewish question, and so
forth?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever heard him fussing with his entertainers who
cracked jokes about Jews?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he didn’t like for the entertainers to crack any
jokes about Jews or to tell any Jewish stories.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he told me himself.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what he told you.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, you see, Wally and some of the other M.C.’s have
some pretty good jokes about Negroes and Jack told me once----
Mr. HUBERT. Who told you?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Jack asked me once--did Wally’s jokes offend men in
any kind of way, and I told him “no”. So, he said--well, there was
something about it he didn’t like--the reason why he didn’t like his
M.C.’s to tell any Jewish jokes was something about the Jews have
already had enough problems and enough troubles already or something
like that.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he sensitive about being a Jew?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I don’t think so--I wouldn’t say that he was proud
of being a Jew, I wouldn’t say he was not proud, because I don’t know.
He never showed anything to give me any kind of reason to form an
opinion about that.
Mr. HUBERT. When Larry Crafard left and you found out about it, what
was your reaction?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I didn’t have any reaction.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you think about it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Nothing; just plumb nothing.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, weren’t you surprised that this man should go off
like that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Why not--it was rather strange conduct just to pick up and
leave?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I didn’t give it any thought--he left the way he
came. He came unexpectedly and he left unexpectedly. It didn’t bother
me one bit whether he stayed or whether he left.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you, prior to the shooting of Oswald, give any thought
to the possibility that maybe this man Crafard was getting out of town
for some reason?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know how he was getting out of town?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I didn’t--I didn’t know how he was leaving.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever found out?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I didn’t ask him when I saw him at the trial.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about what conversation you--there was between you
and Crafard at the trial of Ruby?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No conversation at all. He did most of the talking.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what he said?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he didn’t say anything, but he said something
about--he was surprised when he heard about Jack--the shooting of
Oswald, and Jack, and that the FBI had contacted him, and I just told
him that I had found the letter from this girl Gayle and had given it
to the FBI and that was about all there was--that was about it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you where he had been?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; he didn’t tell me where he had been. He said he had
a job in some kind of mine somewhere up in Missouri or wherever he was,
and he left there to come back here to the trial.
Mr. HUBERT. He told you that he had come to Dallas for the purpose of
attending the trial?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; for the purpose of testifying.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember where it was you spoke to him?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. In the county courthouse downtown.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean just in the hallway?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Downstairs--just as you come in the door.
Mr. HUBERT. You only had one conversation with him?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; that afternoon I was on my way back after recess
and he was on one side of the street and I was on the other side of the
street and he saw me and he came across the street and he said, “You
remember this suit?” It was the suit that Jack bought him, and I said,
“Yes.” And he said, “This is all I’ve got--that Jack bought it for me.”
Mr. HUBERT. Is that the only other time you spoke to him?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. That’s the only time.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did the conversation last?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not longer than a few minutes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, after Ruby shot Oswald, did you give any thought to
the possibility that Crafard’s sudden departure the way he went might
be linked up with the shooting of Oswald by Ruby?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You never have given any thought to that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, no; not at all.
Mr. HUBERT. Prior to the shooting of Oswald, and now that you look back
on it, can you tell us anything that indicated that he might have been
thinking of doing it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. That Jack might have been thinking of doing it?
Mr. HUBERT. You understand I don’t mean that you knew prior to the
shooting that he was going to do it, but now that you look back on
those days.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I know what you mean.
Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything that you can remember?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. That might throw some light on what he was thinking about
in that regard?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I don’t believe he was thinking about it until
after he did it. The reason why I say that, because you’ve got to know
Jack--he always did things on the spur of the moment, you know. He
always blowed up just like that [snapping his fingers], if something
disturbed him, he would always just crack up. He was charming one
minute and the next minute he was all riled up.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you interviewed by the Dallas police concerning this
matter?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; never.
Mr. HUBERT. Never?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Never.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you interviewed by the district attorney?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Or any of his staff?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you interviewed by Jack Ruby’s attorneys?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You were subpenaed to go to the trial?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I was subpenaed to go to the trial.
Mr. HUBERT. Did anyone ever talk to you about the nature of the
testimony you were expected to give?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; the only someone I talked to is Belli. He came up to
the club the first night, the second day he was in town, and he asked
me what did I think of Jack Ruby, when I was letting him in the office,
he hadn’t gotten in the office good before he asked me that, and I told
him, and he said “Okay,” and nobody ever talked to me since then.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you tell him?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. The same thing I told you--about him cracking up--he
just--everything he did, he did it on impulse.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ask you about that or did you volunteer that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; he asked me--he just popped up and asked me.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he pop up and ask you, “What do you think about Jack
Ruby?” Or, did he ask you “Does he pop up and flare up suddenly?”
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; here’s the exact words he asked me, “Why do you
think Jack shot Oswald?”
Mr. HUBERT. And what did you tell him?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Just that he did it on an impulse, is the only reason at
all--just cracked up and shot the man.
Mr. HUBERT. But Ruby never carried a gun around on his person, did he?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. He had a gun that day with him, though? Would that
influence your thinking somewhat?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. And from what I understand of your previous testimony, the
that fact that he would have a gun on him would be unusual; wouldn’t it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Coming in and out of the club, yes; but I don’t know
whether he carried it on him or not when he was not coming in and out
of the club. In other words, I was stating that if he did carry a
gun--when I saw him with a gun, it was always in a bag, never on him,
but when he was away from the club--I don’t know where he had this gun.
Mr. HUBERT. But your impression was that he didn’t carry it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Therefore, when you found that he did carry it on the day
he shot Oswald, didn’t that rather surprise you?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, no; my wife asked me, “What was Jack doing with a
gun?” And I said, “I don’t know. He might have just had it in the car
and didn’t want to open the trunk because he had that money in there,
probably, and just stuck it in his pocket and wasn’t in his senses that
he had been in all the time.”
Mr. HUBERT. Your wife, in fact, was curious about the same things I’m
asking you about?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Why would she have been curious about that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, it was because that she never knew that he carried
one and she didn’t like guns, so when it come to the question of a
gun, she, by being a woman, and you know how women are about being
curious, she asked the question, but she asked a whole lot of other
questions about things she never knew.
Mr. HUBERT. So, your testimony is that when you found that Ruby had
shot Oswald, you were not surprised that he was carrying a gun?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I wasn’t surprised.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever talked to any members of Ruby’s family about
the man?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. About the gun?
Mr. HUBERT. No; about Ruby’s case.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; not other than Mrs. Grant called me and talked to
me and she would do most of the talking--this and that and it’s always
about the same thing and it just bugs me, you know.
Mr. HUBERT. You have only spoken to her by phone since Ruby shot Oswald?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I spoke to her in person. I have seen her at the
club a couple of times. She has been up there and I have seen her down
at the courthouse and I saw her a number of times up to the club after
the club had been closed, down at the club trying to sell it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she ever talk about the case itself?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; not to--not any more than any other sister would say
when her brother was being locked up or committed a crime.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, when you were subpenaed, did you ever ask her or
anybody what they were calling you for?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I didn’t ask anyone.
Mr. HUBERT. And you just hung around the court during the entire time
of the trial?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not the entire time of the trial; the last week of the
trial--Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday.
Mr. HUBERT. Those were the only 3 days you were there?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Just those 3 days.
Mr. HUBERT. You received your subpena after the trial began?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you were there for 3 days?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Three days.
Mr. HUBERT. The trial ended on Saturday, I think?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Who excused you?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Phil Burleson.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you why?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He just said--I asked him the second day--I ask him, I
said, “Well, listen, when are you going to use me, because I’ve got a
job and these people are not going to hold off--they are going to hire
somebody else.”
And he said, “We are going to put you on tomorrow, in fact we will get
to you tomorrow,” and Belli changed his mind about using me on account
of the record I have.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you find that out?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Phil Burleson came out that afternoon and told me and
I kept asking him--no, that was after the judge had recessed for that
day, I asked him, I said, “Listen, I’ve got to go to work tomorrow,”
and he says, “Well, go ahead, Belli is not going to use you on account
of your record,” and so, to my surprise I lost my job by not being able
to work those 3 days.
Mr. HUBERT. Who were you employed by then?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I had just started with Yardell Construction Co.,
they build houses--homes.
Mr. HUBERT. Other than the time you spoke to Belli at the club and he
asked you what you thought about Jack or why he killed him and you
told him, did you ever speak to Belli or anybody else about what your
testimony would be about?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; never.
Mr. HUBERT. So, that as far as you know, they were going to question
you about your opinion about Jack?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; that’s what I thought.
Mr. HUBERT. And then, Burleson told you the reason they couldn’t use
you was because of your record?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen pictures of Oswald?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. In the paper?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I guess you saw pictures on TV and some of the famous
pictures that were published at the time he got shot?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Does he bear any resemblance to that man that had the fight
with Wally Weston?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; this gentleman that had the fight with Wally Weston
was sort of a young loudmouth, a smart alec--he had kind of a full
face--a handsome fellow.
Mr. HUBERT. You are willing to state that it was not the man whom you
have come to know through pictures as Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And you would be positive about that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Positive.
Mr. HUBERT. You worked for a man by the name of Roland Davis one time?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Roland Davis?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; I think he was connected someway with the El Rancho
Hotel.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You worked there in 1961?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; that was right after I got out--I have forgotten
about that--right after I got back.
Mr. HUBERT. What kind of work did you do there?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I was a night clerk at the motel.
Mr. HUBERT. Who hired you?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Mr. Davis.
Mr. HUBERT. Does Mr. Davis have other lines besides running the motel?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not that I know.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he engaged in selling--in dealing with Jeeps?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I never saw any Jeeps. The only cars I saw he would
own was a Cadillac and a station wagon that had “El Rancho” on the side
of his station wagon.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if Ruby was ever involved in trading in
automobiles with Jeeps?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You never heard that at all?
Air. Armstrong. He just could get a car, from what I gather.
Mr. HUBERT. What was that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He just could get a car from what I get.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I wasn’t thinking of his buying Jeeps for his own
use, but trading in them. That is to say, as a business.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a Nancy Jo Mooney?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Nancy Jo Mooney; no.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, did you know one by the name of Betty MacDonald?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear of a girl who had worked at the Carousel
as either a waitress or a stripper who committed suicide about the
middle of February of this year?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. By hanging herself in jail?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. And she was arrested.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You have never heard anything about that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. And any of those names--Betty MacDonald or Nancy Jo Mooney
mean nothing to you?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. There was a girl named Nancy who worked at the club for
a few nights or a few weeks--I don’t recall. There were so many girls
came there--some of them I don’t even remember their names, but I don’t
know whether it was Jo Mooney or what her last name was--as a matter of
fact, I don’t even recall how she looked, but I remember writing the
name Nancy as a waitress.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they have a Polaroid camera at the club?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What was it used for?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. To make pictures of the twisting, customers doing the
twist on the stage, which the M.C. would use to make a joke with
them--and give the customers the picture.
Mr. HUBERT. Who operated that camera?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Larry Crafard do so also?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. One Sunday night, I think he did--I remember showing him
how to operate it.
Mr. HUBERT. Were those the only pictures that were allowed to be taken
in there?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear of any other photographer?