Mr. HUBERT. Let’s do it this way--can you tell us how long after you
saw the rerun that you called Paul?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I don’t know whether it was before I went down to
the club or after I went down to the club.
Mr. HUBERT. You said you had called from your home?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes--you see, when I went down to the club I wasn’t gone
but an hour.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you go down to the club for?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I went down and fed the dogs, because I knew that they
would be down there all day long without any food, and Clipper, I was
crazy about and I didn’t want him going hungry--that was the only two
dogs there, so I fed the dogs--went down and fed the dogs and there was
a newsman in front of the club and he tried to grab me when I came out.
Mr. HUBERT. The police did too?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; just the newsman, but I didn’t give him any
statement or anything. I had called a friend of mine to bring me
downtown and I went and got in the car and went on back home.
Mr. HUBERT. So, you are not sure whether you called Paul from the club
or from the house?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I know I called him from home, but I don’t know if
it was before or after--it was around 12 o’clock, I imagine, when I got
downtown--somewhere along in there, but when I did call Ralph, I said,
“What are you going to do, open the club up?” He said, “Meet me down
there Monday,” and I did meet him down at the club Monday and decided
to keep the club open.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any conversations with anyone else during the
course of Sunday?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you interviewed by the FBI Sunday?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not Sunday.
Mr. HUBERT. You were not interviewed until Monday?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not until Monday.
Mr. HUBERT. Where were you when they interviewed you then?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. At the club--Monday night.
Mr. HUBERT. The club was open then?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. You were managing it for Ralph Paul?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I wasn’t managing it--he managed it himself.
Mr. HUBERT. You met him there Monday--Paul?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it during the daytime?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. It was during the daytime.
Mr. HUBERT. He decided to keep on running it and asked you if you would
just keep on with it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes--oh, yes; I did call Eva Grant.
Mr. HUBERT. Who?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Mrs. Grant.
Mr. HUBERT. What day was this?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. On Sunday--no, no--on Monday.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not speak to her on Sunday?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I called her on Monday and told her Jack had fired
me--this was Monday morning. She said, “Well, nonsense, you know how
Jack is. Go on down to the club. Mr. Ralph said he would meet me down
there.” And she said, “You know how my brother is, he was disturbed, he
didn’t know what he was doing anyway.”
Mr. HUBERT. Paul had just simply told you to meet him at the club?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He didn’t know anything about the firing, but I told him
at the club--Monday. Now, when I told him, he said, “How many times
does that make?”
Mr. HUBERT. Who said that--Ralph Paul said that to you?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; I said, “I don’t know, about a hundred, I guess.”
Mr. HUBERT. How long did the club continue to operate?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. It continued to operate until February, I think it was,
the last of February--the last Friday in February.
Mr. HUBERT. Who decided to close it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. The vice squad decided to close it.
Mr. HUBERT. For what reason?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I mean, the Liquor Control Board.
Mr. HUBERT. Because the license hadn’t been paid?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Because the license was in Jack’s name and it was
obvious he had violated those liquor licenses when he shot Oswald.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever seen anybody at the club that looked like
Oswald?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; never did.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen Oswald himself in the club?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever tell anybody that you had?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Specifically, did you ever tell Larry Crafard that you had?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Billy DeMar?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is he?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He was an M.C.
Mr. HUBERT. He also had a memory act, didn’t he?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, he did.
Mr. HUBERT. You have heard the story, haven’t you?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; I have heard the story.
Mr. HUBERT. That he said he had seen Oswald in the club?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. That’s what he told me--he said he thought that he saw
somebody that could have been Oswald.
Mr. HUBERT. When did he tell you that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. That was later--he said--he was walking around every
night saying that the newspaper misunderstood what he had said. He said
he definitely did not state the statement that they had in the paper.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think it is possible that you told Larry Crafard
that you had seen him, that you thought you had seen somebody that
looked like Oswald in the club?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, it isn’t possible--no.
Mr. HUBERT. We have been going for 3 hours, and let’s adjourn for lunch.
(At this point the proceedings in the deposition of Andrew Armstrong
were recessed for lunch and resumed at 1:35 p.m. on the same date,
April 14, 1964, as follows:)
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Armstrong, you understand that we are continuing the
deposition which we started this morning, and which we adjourned at
about noon, and you understand that we are continuing it under the same
oath and conditions upon which it was begun. You understand further
that you are under the same oath you took this morning at the very
beginning of the deposition?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you consider yourself to be under that same oath?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me clarify one point before I go further--with
reference to the gun or pistol that you have already testified about,
can you give us a description of it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Let’s see--it was not a large gun, a small barrel on it,
I guess you would call it a snub nose.
Mr. HUBERT. I notice you were holding your fingers apart there?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And would you say you were holding them about 5 inches
apart?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. About 5 inches, I would say.
Mr. HUBERT. And that’s the whole length of the gun from one tip to the
other?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; I would say so.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it a revolver?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; I think it was a revolver.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what kind of barrel it had on it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, it had a little short barrel.
Mr. HUBERT. But I mean, what color was it; black, blue, steel?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, it was--I don’t remember--I only saw the gun, you
know, in sight--you know I saw the bag a jillion times, but the gun
only a couple of times, I would say.
Mr. HUBERT. What kind of handle did it have on it; do you remember?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I think it had a brown handle on it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Mr. Ruby have a holster for that gun?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I never saw it with one--I never saw a holster.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, by a holster, I am including both types of holsters,
one that is worn on the belt around the hip and one that is worn slung
around the shoulders and the gun is usually in the armpit, you know
what I mean?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You never saw either type?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact, as I understood your testimony, you
never saw him actually carry it on his person at all?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Either in his pocket or stuck in his belt or otherwise?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whose gun that was?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I assumed it was his gun.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear any talk about whose gun it was?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; he asked me where is my gun--the few times he came
in and left it in the kitchen and asked me about it and I would say,
“You left it in the kitchen, or some place like that.”
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Turning to another subject--did you ever observe
any particular interest on the part of Ruby with reference to police or
police work?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Any particular part or effort?
Mr. HUBERT. Any particular interest on his part in police or police
work--generally?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever in your presence express any views toward the
police--good or bad?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, the only views he ever spoke was good views.
Mr. HUBERT. Could you give us an example?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, just that he didn’t like to hear anyone knocking the
police department.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear anyone knock the police department in his
presence?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, no, not direct--saying any bad things about the
police department, but someone might have made a statement about the
police department and he would not like it.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, are you drawing on your imagination for that, or
do you remember a specific instance in which he indicated that he did
not like a person speaking in a bad way about the police?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I don’t remember--in my mind I was trying to
remember--to recall an incident, but I don’t remember an incident, but
there was an incident, I’m sure.
Mr. HUBERT. As I understand you, then, you definitely have the
impression that he did not like people talking badly about the police?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t remember any specific instance which you can give
us as an example of how you formed that impression?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. But the impression, nevertheless, is in your mind?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever heard him discuss politics?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. What opinion do you have concerning his interest in
politics?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. His interest was that--I have heard him say--I have
heard him say this, that anybody that was elected to hold a certain
office must be responsible and capable of taking care of that position
or they wouldn’t be elected.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, that is a specific instance that you remember?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us when it was?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I don’t remember when it was, but I remember that
incident--I know who he was talking to--it was just a conversation and
I happened to be there and to hear this party.
Mr. HUBERT. His view, generally, then, was that an elected official
should be respected, is that the idea?
Mr. HUBERT. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Because they had been elected by the people?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear him discuss the President of the United
States?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I’m sure I have--everybody has, but I don’t know of what
nature or what subject, but I’m sure I heard him discuss the President.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, of course, you know that in this country as perhaps
all over the world there are different views about government,
and society normally called “isms” left or right or communisms or
pro-Castro or anti-Castro or things of that sort?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever heard Ruby express himself in areas of
thought such as those?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I know he threw a guy out of the club once for
speaking as a Communist.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you tell us about that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, it was just that this guy was heckling with the
MC, Wally Weston, and he was coming on like he was a large portion of
the Communist Party.
Mr. HUBERT. This man was--this patron?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; and Wally stepped off of the stage--he made a
remark that----
Mr. HUBERT. When you say “he” do you mean Wally?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; the customer made a remark that Wally could be--made
a remark something similar to Wally could be a Communist or something
like that too, in other words, “How do I know, you may be a Communist,
too,” or something like that. And, Wally stepped off of the stage and
said, “Don’t you call me a Communist,” and he hit the guy and by the
time he hit him Jack had him and was rushing him out the door, and told
him, “Never come back in this club no more.”
Mr. HUBERT. Did he push him out of the door?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He pushed him out of the door--he pushed him up against
the wall and told him to go out the door.
Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t hit him?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; he didn’t hit him--Wally hit him.
Mr. HUBERT. And Jack hustled him out?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. When you go out the door, you are going to face a
wall--in other words, the stairways come up like this [indicating], and
the door is here and you’ve got to turn and go down the stairway and he
shoved the guy right on into the wall.
Mr. HUBERT. Then he walked down the stairs?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Then he hurried down the stairs.
Mr. HUBERT. When was this incident?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. It was--I would say around the last of September or
somewhere along in there or October.
Mr. HUBERT. What makes you fix the date?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, it was toward the last part of the summer, I’m
sure.
Mr. HUBERT. This man had been in the audience boasting, you say, that
he was a big shot Communist?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, not a big shot, but he come on like he was a big
portion of the Communist Party.
Mr. HUBERT. What sort of looking man was he?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He was a young fellow with two other young couples from
Arlington State College--I think that’s where he said he was from.
Mr. HUBERT. Who told you that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, that’s what they said--that’s what they had said,
Wally had asked them where they was from and he said he was a student
at Arlington--I’m sure they said Arlington.
Mr. HUBERT. At where?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. At Arlington College.
Mr. HUBERT. At Arlington State College?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where is that located?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. In Arlington, I guess.
Mr. HUBERT. And you say there were two couples?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; there were two men and a lady.
Mr. HUBERT. And it was one of the men who was going on like he was a
big Communist?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. The other man and the lady were quiet?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. They were quiet and never said a thing and they
apologized for his behavior after Jack had put this other guy out.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they stay on?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; they said--Wally said, “Are you going to follow
your friend?” And they said, “No; we couldn’t say he was a friend of
ours, and we just happened to be together.” And then he dropped out.
Mr. HUBERT. How was this man dressed, do you know?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he had a suit on.
Mr. HUBERT. How old a man was he?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, about 21 or 22, I guess.
Mr. HUBERT. How tall was he?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. About 5 feet 9, something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. What would be your estimate of his weight?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not much over 150 or 160.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a tie on?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; he had a tie on.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a mustache?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No mustache.
Mr. HUBERT. What color was his hair?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I think he had dark--I don’t know whether it was black
or dark brown, but it was dark.
Mr. HUBERT. I would like, if you could, for you to fix the time of that
incident a bit closer than you have been able to do it so far.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, no; I couldn’t--the air conditioners were running.
Mr. HUBERT. The air conditioners were running?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. And it was around the last of August--it wasn’t
too--well, if you could ask Wally he probably could give you a better
date than I could when it was.
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t remember the night of the week?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I sure don’t.
Mr. HUBERT. Would it be helpful if you tried to estimate how long
before the assassination of the President this all happened?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Was Crafard there then?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; he came after.
Mr. HUBERT. That was before Crafard came?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. About how long was it before Crafard came?