Mr. HUBERT. Because, I had meant to restrict this inquiry as to the
number of times you had seen her between the time you went to work and
the assassination.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Very few times--very few.
Mr. HUBERT. Then, we have to revise, I think, to some extent, what your
testimony has been, because I have been thinking that you had seen her
some 50 times during the period between May 1962, and November 24,
1963, but apparently I was wrong on that.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I hadn’t saw her over 10 times on that.
Mr. HUBERT. So, there are about 10 times you have seen her in the
period of time prior to the assassination?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. And where would that have been usually?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I would say three times at the Vegas and the other
seven times at the club. I would say she came in the club seven times
and these times would be on a Monday night, I would say, about seven
times she had been in that club.
Mr. HUBERT. Why do you say 7 instead of, for instance, 12 or 5?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I’m just saying I remember seeing her 3 times--I
can almost pinpoint the times that I saw her. Let’s see--she came
there--Monday, Tuesday----
Mr. HUBERT. Well, we need not go into the details--apparently you have
some reason you remember seeing her at the club?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I was going by the times I saw her with a certain
person.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was that certain person?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I know that I had saw her with a little waitress
named Susie--the first time I saw her at the club.
Mr. HUBERT. At the Carousel?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right. The next time I saw her at the Carousel she
had come in with some people that I never saw before, and she always
introduced me to whoever she was with if I don’t know them, and the
next time she came in, I think it was the accountant, Mr. Klinman, and
then again she came in with some more people that I didn’t ever know
before.
Mr. HUBERT. Different from the first group?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Different from the first group and again she came in by
herself about three times--three times--I’m sure--by herself, alone.
Mr. HUBERT. That makes about seven or eight times?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. At the Carousel?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. At the Carousel.
Mr. HUBERT. And at the Vegas you saw her three times?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Three times--I was at the Vegas Club three times, I
think, and saw her there.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, during the period beginning from the time you first
began to work there and until the assassination, how many times did you
speak to her by telephone?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Three or four times a week.
Mr. HUBERT. What was that about?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, nothing much--you see you--she would call you and
forget what she called you for, or, just to talk about her troubles.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it about the business of the Carousel?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, no, just about her troubles--just to talk about
her troubles. She will call me, if she needed anything fixed, she
wanted me to tell Howard to stop over and do some repair work for her.
I have called her about something I might need for a second night and
I couldn’t get it and if she had it I would send someone out for it
or she would send it over to me, and things of that nature, but the
biggest part of the time she called me was when she and Jack were in a
row with each other.
Mr. HUBERT. Did that happen very often?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. They both--she would cry on my shoulder and he would cry
on my shoulder about each other.
Mr. HUBERT. Did that happen very often?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Very often.
Mr. HUBERT. How often during the time you were there and until the
assassination?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Every other week I would say.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I don’t want to pin you down to anything mathematical,
but during the period of 18 months, that’s pretty often.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I would say so.
Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about something like--that would be 70
weeks roughly, and 18 months, and every other week would be about 35
times they had rows you know of?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I would say about 35 times, if that’s the way the
calculation is there.
Mr. HUBERT. How did these rows come to your attention?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Because they would always tell me. If it was something
she didn’t want to do--if it was something she wanted to do and he
didn’t want to do it, a lot of times it would maybe happen on the
telephone from the club. It was sometimes--difference of opinions,
about something.
Mr. HUBERT. Apparently they patched those things up too, didn’t they?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, apparently--they would always be back on good
terms--it was just like, well, they were before, on the same key. In
other words, Jack would get riled up and you will think he was going to
walk off of this building and the next minute he was just as sweet as
he could be and she was the same way.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the relationship of the club and Jack to the
police department and the individual members of it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I think that the club had a good record and as far
as policemen--there was no relation. There was not ever any certain
policemen come into the club. We had patrolmen stop in for coffee
sometimes, never the same one--hardly ever.
Mr. HUBERT. Would they be in uniform?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. In uniform--just like they do all the other clubs, and
you would have the vice stopping in just like they do the rest of the
clubs, walking around, looking around, never sit down.
Mr. HUBERT. Wasn’t there some special arrangement with reference to
what they would be charged?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, the policemen always paid the same price as
newsmen and their boys, which was 40 cents on beer, policemen,
bellboys, hotel clerks and things like that and newsmen.
Mr. HUBERT. They all had a cut rate?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. They all had a cut rate.
Mr. HUBERT. That was true of members of the vice squad too?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. That included members of the vice squad. Of course, I
never seen any members of the vice squad take anything to drink, any
beer or anything like that.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you mentioned one particular member of the vice
squad called Gilmore?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Mr. Gilmore.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about him?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, Mr. Gilmore is a man that will, I believe and
everybody else believes, and Jack was afraid of Mr. Gilmore--I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you know he was afraid of him?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I know he was afraid of him because he was nervous
whenever Mr. Gilmore was in the club.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you he was afraid of him?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No--he would show it.
Mr. HUBERT. How would he show it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. By--making sure that everything was perfect and if it
was close to curfew then he would say all the glasses and bottles have
to be off of the table by 1:15--12:15 week nights and 1:15 Saturday
nights. If Mr. Gilmore was in the club at that time you would see Jack
out in the audience hustling glasses and bottles off of the table,
because he knew that if Mr. Gilmore saw anything or anybody drinking in
there, he was subject to getting a 5-day suspension or a ten-day.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, when Gilmore was in the club he enforced
the rules more strictly than when Gilmore was not in the club?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Watch over it more strictly, which is something that
most club owners do when there are vice squad members in the clubs.
Mr. HUBERT. Then, was the relationship between Ruby and Gilmore
different from the relationship of Ruby and any other member of the
vice squad?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; you see, the only time--no; not any different,
because if there was any other member of the vice squad in there, which
Mr. Gilmore is the only one I know by name, is because he is the one
that most people fear.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean he has the reputation of being tougher than any of
the other members of the vice squad?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I guess that’s what it is. It’s just something
you pick up. You never saw him arrest anyone, you never saw him close
anyone’s club up----
Mr. HUBERT. Was he a captain or what was his rank, do you know?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. A lieutenant, I think.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know his first name?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I don’t know his first name.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack ever tell you anything about him?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; he just said that some of the old time
waitresses--we had one up there by the name of Alice and Jack and some
other girl who was discussing Mr. Gilmore and they were discussing his
reputation, and Alice mentioned the fact that Mr. Gilmore would arrest
his mother if he caught her doing wrong.
Mr. HUBERT. What is her last name--what is Alice’s last name?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Her name is Alice Alexander.
Mr. HUBERT. She was what?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. She was a waitress.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know anybody by the name of Alice Nichols?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I talked to her about twice on the telephone--no, no;
not Alice--this was Mrs. Blackmon, I’m sorry. Alice Nichols?
Mr. HUBERT. Alice Reeves Nichols.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I heard the name.
Mr. HUBERT. You have never met her?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I have never met her.
Mr. HUBERT. You have never talked to her?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I want to get to the events and your activities,
and the activities of others that you observed during the period
just preceding the assassination of President Kennedy and for a few
days thereafter. Now, first of all, did your routine follow the
usual pattern that you have already described until the date of the
assassination of President Kennedy?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything you can think of that was not ordinary
during that period of time?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. That I can think of that was not ordinary?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No--everything was as usual.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to Jack about the forthcoming visit of the
President?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; we didn’t discuss the visit of the President. As
a matter of fact, I got behind on the date. I was planning on being
downtown that day--that morning myself.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, didn’t you ask Jack to adjust your schedule in
such a way that you could go and see the parade and see the President
pass by?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, my schedule of the President was already passed by
when I got downtown.
Mr. HUBERT. I’m talking about prior to the time--to November 22--a day
or two before, didn’t you discuss with Jack about going to see the
parade?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I think I mentioned it to somebody that I would be
over to see the parade.
Mr. HUBERT. Didn’t you talk to Jack about it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I don’t know for sure--it could have been Jack--now.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall any comment that he made about going to see
the parade?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to be interested in the President’s visit?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I remember there was something about a conversation
going on between him and someone that--I was passing by on the way to
the bus--and it was that he seemed delighted that the President was
coming to Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you overheard Jack say something to someone
to the effect that he was glad or delighted that the President was
coming to Dallas?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember how long before the assassination you heard
Jack say that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I don’t--sure don’t.
Mr. HUBERT. Were there any special plans being made in the club in
connection with the President’s visit?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, suppose you start off with your activities on the
night before the President was shot, say the 21st--did you go home at
the usual time?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. At the usual time.
Mr. HUBERT. Which is to say--1 o’clock?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. 1 o’clock.
Mr. HUBERT. And your time for reporting would have been when?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. My time for working was 1 o’clock the next day.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you report at 1?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; I was there a little before 1.
Mr. HUBERT. How long before 1?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, you could say--let’s see, I stopped and got a
haircut and I must have been on the 12 o’clock bus from out where I
live.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did you get up that day?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. It was pretty early, I think I must have gotten up about
10 o’clock or 9:30--about 9 o’clock.
Mr. HUBERT. Then you went to get a haircut?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I went to get a haircut.
Mr. HUBERT. And that’s all you did between the time you got up and the
time you got to the club?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. That’s all I did.
Mr. HUBERT. And you got to the club about what time?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. It must have been about 12:15--12:20, or something like
that, because when I got downtown I could see portions of the parade,
you know, like I got off of the bus at Main and Field--at Main and
Akard, I’m sorry, which is the usual stop, I always get off at Main and
Akard, and further down you could see portions of the parade, but I
felt that I had missed the parade--I didn’t realize that I had missed
the parade until I was in the barber shop and thought, well, maybe I’ll
get downtown, I said to myself, and I will see some portion of it, but
when I got downtown I was surprised to see that the parade had already
moved forward--further down.
Mr. HUBERT. Just for the record, what barber shop did you go to?