The testimony of Ira Jefferson “Jack” Beers, Jr., was taken at 9:15
a.m., on April 14, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post
Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W.
Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.
Mr. GRIFFIN. First of all, let me introduce myself. My name is Burt
Griffin, and I am with the advisory staff of the General Counsel
staff of the President’s Commission investigating the Assassination
of President Kennedy. I want to tell you a little bit about the
Commission, what we are authorized to do and so forth before we
actually get into the deposition. The Commission was set up pursuant
to Executive order of President Johnson on November 30, 1963, and also
pursuant to a joint resolution of Congress which was enacted about the
same time. Under these two documents, the Executive order and the joint
resolution, the Commission has been authorized to promulgate certain
rules and regulations, and under those rules and regulations I have
been specifically designated to take your sworn deposition.
I want to tell you a little bit about the general nature of our
inquiry. The Commission has been set up to inquire into and evaluate
and report back to President Johnson upon the facts relating to the
assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent murder of Lee
Harvey Oswald, and particularly as to you, Mr. Beers, we are interested
in what you know about Jack Ruby and about the events of November 24.
You have been interviewed by the FBI, and we have these interview
reports before us, so we have a place to start anyhow in talking about
this matter.
You have been asked to appear here by virtue of an oral request which
was made by Special Agent Sorrels of the Secret Service. I don’t know
whether he made it to you personally or to your employer or how it
actually happened. Under the rules of the Commission you are entitled
to have a 3-day written notice before you are obligated to appear here.
Mr. BEERS. I did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, you got it.
Mr. BEERS. He changed the date and asked me to come this day.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right; fine. But I did want to make clear to you that
if there have been any irregularities or anything that you prefer to
have a different time, we could discuss that. But I presume that you
are satisfied since you are here?
Mr. BEERS. That is all right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Fine. Also under the rules of the Commission you are
entitled to appear here with an attorney, and we actually encourage
people to have attorneys, if they so desire, although many of the
people, in fact most of them, don’t appear with an attorney. I see
you are not here with an attorney, and I take it that is because you
don’t desire one. But if you do for any reason feel you would like
an attorney, please let us know and we can defer your deposition
or interrupt it, whatever the case might be. I ask if you have any
questions about what is involved here before I ask you to be sworn?
Mr. BEERS. I have no questions whatsoever.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay, would you raise your right hand, then.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. BEERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state for the record your full name.
Mr. BEERS. Ira Jefferson Beers, known as Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us when you were born, Mr. Beers?
Mr. BEERS. July 14, 1923.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live presently?
Mr. BEERS. I live at 10913 Joaquin Drive.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that here in Dallas?
Mr. BEERS. Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your occupation?
Mr. BEERS. Photographer with the Dallas Morning News.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been employed with the Dallas Morning
News?
Mr. BEERS. A little over 14 years.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you have been a photographer?
Mr. BEERS. Since 1942; yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now I want to hand you a document which I have marked
Dallas, Tex., April 14, 1963, Ira J. Beers’ Exhibit 5350. This purports
to be a copy of an FBI interview report. The interview took place,
according to this report, on November 30, 1963, between you and two
Special Agents of the FBI, Mr. Pinkston and W. Harlan Brown. I want to
hand you this and ask you if you have had a chance to read it?
Mr. BEERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any additions or corrections that you would
want to make in that. What I am referring to here right now in
particular is whether you feel that that report accurately reflects
everything that you told the bureau on the date of that interview?
Mr. BEERS. With one minor exception. Shall I just read?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you read the sentence that you feel is wrong?
Mr. BEERS. “He is acquainted with Ruby both by name and by sight since
about 18 months ago. He was assigned as a cameraman with Dale Bayse, a
reporter for the Dallas News, on a story Bayse was doing on a stripper
school being run by Jack Ruby.
“This story was for a magazine ...”--I would like to make clear this
was not an assignment by the Dallas News.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.
Mr. BEERS. That is the only thing I think of in this particular report.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Fine. Now I am going to hand you what has been marked
Dallas, Tex., April 14, 1963, Ira J. Beers’ Exhibit 5351. This is also
an FBI interview report. This interview took place on December 3, 1963,
here in Dallas, and purports to be a report of an interview between you
and two other Special Agents of the FBI, Mr. James C. Kennedy and Will
Hayden Griffin. I am going to hand you this Exhibit 5351, and ask you
the same question as I asked with respect to 5350?
Mr. BEERS. Yes; I have seen this report.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any additions?
Mr. BEERS. Yes, sir; there is a couple in here. Let me locate them.
One, which is probably a minor one, speaking of myself: “He also stated
that there were two armored vehicles, one in the basement and one
near the driveway from the Commerce side.” I think possibly the agent
misunderstood what I said there. There was only one armored vehicle.
That was in the basement driveway near the Commerce Street side. There
was another vehicle, police car, parked in the basement right near the
entrance.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now that is a runover sentence from the first page of the
report to the second page of the report, is that right?
Mr. BEERS. Yes; that’s correct.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you want to correct the sentence?
Mr. BEERS. “Beers did not know Ruby prior to the shooting, nor did he
know Oswald ...” et cetera. This is contradictory to the first report
that you just handed me a moment ago. Apparently the agent must have
misunderstood me or misread his notes or something. I did know who Ruby
was prior to this shooting.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I wonder if you would want to make a change in ink in that
sentence which would reflect accurately what you said, then initial the
change that you make and date it?
Mr. BEERS. Let me ask you a question here. Shall I say this sentence is
contradictory to that report, or just change it to that I did know Ruby
prior?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. BEERS. [Making change.] I have written here “I did know Ruby prior
to the shooting, as stated to the FBI in report dated November 30,
1963, Exhibit 5350.” Would you like me to initial this?
Mr. GRIFFIN. If you would, please, and then date it?
Mr. BEERS. [Initialing.] This is April 14?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; are there any other additions or corrections?
Mr. BEERS. So far as I can see, there are no further corrections.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Well if we go along and something occurs to you, we
can change it even further. Let me ask you, Mr. Beers, where were you
at the time President Kennedy was shot?
Mr. BEERS. I was on Dallas News property between the parking lot
probably and my photographic studio.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you heard that President Kennedy had been shot, what
did you do?
Mr. BEERS. I was in my photo lab in the process of finishing films of
the arrival at Love Field, and a lab man who works with us told me that
the President had been shot, and I immediately thought he was making
some sort of joke and I continued to turn out my picture of his arrival
at Love Field. And I told the fellow, “Well, go ahead with your joke.”
And he said, “No; that is right, the President has been shot.” And he
just turned around and walked out. And I still didn’t believe him. In
a few minutes our intercom between the city desk came on, and I was
told to report to the Texas School Book Depository Building, that they
thought they had the man that shot the President in the corner there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go to the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. BEERS. A few minutes later, I did. It sort of stunned me. I guess I
didn’t quite realize. I said, “Okay,” and I kept standing there working
on my prints. And just a couple or 3 minutes, our city editor came back
and he said, “Get the hell out and go over to the Depository.” And I
arrived at the School Book Depository about 5 minutes later.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What time would you say it was when you got there?
Mr. BEERS. I don’t know. It would be shortly after noon sometime. I
have lost complete track of time for a good length of time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About how long would you say it was after you first heard
the President had been shot?
Mr. BEERS. Probably 20 minutes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you got there, did you go into the building?
Mr. BEERS. No, sir; I did not. As I arrived, there was quite a crowd
of people gathered around the building, and so some officers brought a
disheveled looking man from the building, and I thought this probably
was the person, so I ran over and made a picture, and then went over
to the building. This time the building was sealed off and no one was
allowed to enter.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain there at the School Book
Depository?
Mr. BEERS. I remained at the School Book Depository for 2 or 3 minutes,
and I heard the report that an officer had been shot in Oak Cliff. I
ran back to my car, which was parked on Main Street directly across the
street from the county jail building, and notified our office by 2-way
radio that there was a report of a shooting, that a police officer had
been involved, and asked them if they had any information, or if this
would probably be linked to the President’s assassination, and they had
no information.
I checked the police dispatcher, and the dispatcher didn’t have
enough information to tell us, so I was told to remain at the Texas
School Book Depository, which I did until sometime quite late in the
afternoon, at the time the police had finished their investigation
there in the building, and then admitted the press to the building, and
we were taken to the sixth floor and allowed to photograph the area
where the rifle was found, and shown and allowed to photograph the area
in and around the window and make pictures from the window where the
assassination was supposedly--where the assassin was supposed to have
fired shots from.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us an estimate of what time that would have
been when you were up there taking the pictures on the sixth floor?
Mr. BEERS. This would be strictly a guess, an estimate. It would be
sometime around the vicinity of 4 o’clock. It was quite late in the
afternoon. Probably later.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now in your pictures that you took, were any of the
objects that were allegedly found up there on the sixth floor
photographed, such as the position of the rifle and the placement of
the boxes and other materials in the window from which the assassin is
believed to have shot?
Mr. BEERS. Yes. Prior to admitting us to the building, I made pictures
of a sack, very long narrow sack type of affair that was brought down
from there, and a pop bottle and some pieces of chicken, and I also
made a picture of the rifle which I believe it was Lieutenant Carl
Day from the Dallas police crime lab brought that. And upon going in
the building, I photographed the area where the rifle was found. I
photographed the area around the window from which the assassin was
supposedly seated, and I moved into that area and made a picture from
the window, supposedly the window from which the bullets were fired,
that showed a little corner of the boxes which possibly the rifle
rested on. It shows the street down below where the automobile was
traveling when the President was killed.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The photographs that you took up there in the window and
on the sixth floor would not at that time have shown the rifle on the
sack or the pop bottle, or the chicken?
Mr. BEERS. No, sir. That was shown outside the building.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Do you still have copies of the photographs?
Mr. BEERS. I do not have copies of the photographs. The negatives are
in custody of the managing editor, Mr. Jack Krueger, managing editor of
the Dallas News.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what the newspaper policy is going to be with
respect to retention of those negatives?
Mr. BEERS. We planned to keep them in our permanent file. Not with the
ordinary run of the mill day-to-day negatives, but they are filed in
and will be filed for how long, I do not know, in the managing editor’s
office.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it from what you have said then, there is perhaps a
general file of negatives or photos that were taken on the day of this
assassination and the 2 days thereafter, which are going to be kept in
a separate spot in your building?
Mr. BEERS. To the best of my knowledge; yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know, for our information, and I don’t know whether
we are interested in this or not, do you know if the newspaper has any
policy with respect to making those available, if it should turn out
the Commission would like to see them?
Mr. BEERS. We have made available everything that we have been
requested to so far; yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Fine. Is my understanding correct, that what you have in
that file is negatives and not developed photographs, or do you have
both?
Mr. BEERS. Primarily negatives. It is possible there are some
photographs that are filed either in our biographical file in the
managing editor’s department, which we consider to be second prints.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are these negatives such as they could be easily examined
to determine whether they might be of use to us without having to
develop them or print them?
Mr. BEERS. That would depend upon whoever examined them; their ability
to read negatives.
I am sure, I, or whoever made the pictures, would be glad to sit down
and go over and explain to you what is in the negatives and what they
show.
Mr. GRIFFIN. After you left the School Book Depository on the 22d,
where did you go next?
Mr. BEERS. I returned to the office and turned out my afternoon work.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain there?
Mr. BEERS. Until approximately 7. Maybe 8 o’clock that night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have occasion to perform any more work for the
newspaper that day?
Mr. BEERS. No, sir; we had pretty well closed up for the day by then. I
believe this was the day--I am not sure--that--no; I am sorry. This was
November the 24th that I was thinking about--referring to.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On the 22d, were there any photographers from your
newspaper at the police department?
Mr. BEERS. On November the 22d?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; the day that the President was shot?
Mr. BEERS. I believe that night when Mr. Oswald was apprehended, we had
a photographer dispatched to the police station to make photographs up
there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who?
Mr. BEERS. Mr. Bill Wentfre.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you and Mr. Wentfre the only news photographers?
Mr. BEERS. No, sir; we have approximately 10 news photographers at the
Dallas News.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it that all of the photographs that were taken by
all 10 of you photographers that day which had anything to with the
assassination would either be in the file that is in your managing
editor’s office, or else the negatives to the photographs would be
there?
Mr. BEERS. Yes, sir; to the best of my knowledge, we attempted to
collect all of those negatives and control them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any photographer who was assigned to the
Dallas Police Department on a regular basis during those 3 days, the
22d, 23d, and 24th of November?
Mr. BEERS. No, sir; we have a photographer assigned there most of the
time, but it was not any one single photographer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you work on Saturday?
Mr. BEERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The 23d?
Mr. BEERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where you were working that day?
Mr. BEERS. Yes, sir; I worked hours 10 to 7 on Saturday, and I received
an assignment to go to the city hall, third floor of the city hall
near Captain Fritz’ office, homicide bureau, and to stand by there to
photograph whatever might take place or whoever might be brought in or
maybe any pictures of Mr. Oswald as he was going up and down the hall.
I arrived there roughly at 10:30 and remained there until roughly 1
o’clock, 1 p.m.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In the afternoon?
Mr. BEERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, during the period that you were there, did you see
Jack Ruby?
Mr. BEERS. No, sir; I didn’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have occasion to return to the police station that
day, Saturday?
Mr. BEERS. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you spend the remainder of Saturday?
Mr. BEERS. I think, I can’t remember exactly where I spent the
remainder of Saturday, but I think just on general assignments out of
the paper there. On Saturday afternoon it is usually rather quiet, and
I possibly, I may have had one or more assignments, but I don’t think
so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, before you left work on Saturday, did you have any
instructions as to what you were to do the next day, Sunday?
Mr. BEERS. No; I did not. It was approximately midnight anyway when I
left work Saturday night. I had no instructions. And at midnight, I
was called to the telephone and told to report to the basement of the
city hall Sunday morning at 10 a.m., to photograph the transfer of Lee
Harvey Oswald from the city jail to the Dallas County Jail.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What time did you actually arrive there?
Mr. BEERS. I arrived at the city hall just about 9 o’clock.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you go when you came in?
Mr. BEERS. I went to the basement of the city hall, and then on through
the basement out into the police parking area in the basement of the
city hall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you station yourself some place in the parking area?
Mr. BEERS. Yes; I did. I went into the parking area and was in general
conversation with various and sundry members of the press who were
there for a short while, and I discovered that there was an area along
a railing which is on the east side of the driveway that goes through
the basement of the city hall, next to some television cameras that
would permit one cameraman to be in this area without obstructing the
view of the television cameras, so I went to this railing and I stayed
there, sitting on this railing until the transfer had started.
When I stood up on the railing and made photographs as Mr. Oswald was
being transferred, which included the pictures of Mr. Ruby shooting Mr.
Oswald.
Then I remained standing on the railing and shot three or four or so
further negatives of the scuffle that was going on.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you--I will turn this around--I am
going to hand you what is a diagram of the basement area in the
municipal building. I have marked this diagram “Dallas, Texas, April
14, 1964, Ira J. Beers’ Exhibit 5352.”
Let me try to explain it a little bit to you. Here is Commerce Street
along the right-hand side, and Main Street along the left-hand side,
and near the bottom of the page, is a ramp which says, “down ramp
leading from Main Street into the basement area,” and following on up
towards Commerce Street you see something marked, “up ramp.”
In this area here is the parking area of the garage. Here is the Police
Department Building. Here is the jail office. This is the hallway that
comes out from the public elevators near Harwood Street so that if you
enter from Harwood you come down to this area, and you go up in the
elevators here and walk through this hallway through some double doors,
and you would be in the ramp area at the bottom of the basement floor.
Now can you, taking your pen, at the time you took your position on the
railing, would you show us where the TV cameras were placed? Can you
mark that in rectangles of some sort?
Mr. BEERS. [Marking on map.] These were live TV cameras that I have
marked on the east side of the railing, and there was a sound on-film
cameraman leaning against the railing right there [pointing].
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now this sound on-film camera, is this something that
requires a tripod of some sort?
Mr. BEERS. It may or may not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if that one did?
Mr. BEERS. He had a monopod or a unapod, which is a single leg support
for the camera.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who that man was?
Mr. BEERS. Mr. George Phenix with KRLD-TV.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you put a figure 1, at the spot on the railing where
you stationed yourself first?