Mr. HUBERT. Or does that term have any significance in police work?
Mr. CURRY. Well, it means to satisfy yourself that they were people who
had a legitimate reason to be there when you screen them.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, within the organization of the police
department, the word "screening" is understood so that you were
satisfied that there would not be people there who were not supposed to
be there?
Mr. CURRY. Any unauthorized people.
Mr. HUBERT. Just one more point on that--under the system, who would be
considered as unauthorized persons?
Mr. CURRY. I think I specifically stated that only newspaper reporters
or police officers would be allowed in the basement.
Mr. HUBERT. Only the news media?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Television people--would be included, too?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there any discussion of the route to be taken?
Mr. CURRY. Not at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. All right; let's go ahead.
Mr. CURRY. Then, I went on upstairs and a little while later I went
to Fritz' office and they were interrogating him--they--there were
several people in there, some I recognized as FBI agents, some were
Secret Service agents, some were Dallas detectives, and Captain Fritz
was talking to Oswald at the time, I believe, and I stood around a few
moments and when there was a lull in the interrogation, I asked Captain
Fritz if he was about ready to transfer Oswald and he said, "Well, no;
they were still talking to him," so I left the room.
Mr. HUBERT. That was about what time?
Mr. CURRY. As I recall, it was probably 10:30, but I didn't care when
they transferred him at all. It didn't make any difference to me. The
arrangements had been made to transfer him and then when it was brought
to----
Mr. HUBERT. What arrangements had been made?
Mr. CURRY. That we would transfer him to the sheriff, but at that time
we did not have any armored cars down there. We were just at that time,
I believe it was--understood that we would just put him in the car and
drive him down there.
Someone asked me if I had heard of the threats that had been made
against him, and I had. They had called me at home about it, and I
called Sheriff Decker, I think, from Fritz' office, and when Fritz said
they were ready to transfer the man, and this is something after 11
o'clock--probably a little after 11, and Decker said, "Okay, bring him
on," and at that time I said, "I thought you were coming after him."
Decker said, "Either way, I'll come after him or you can bring him to
me," and I thought since we had so much involved here, we were the
ones that were investigating the case and we had the officers set up
downstairs to handle it, so I told Decker--I said, "Okay, we'll bring
him to you."
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, at first your security precaution in the
basement was to take care of the situation of either your having to
move him from the jail or Decker coming after him?
Mr. CURRY. Or Decker coming after him; that's right. Then, I saw Chief
Batchelor, and I believe, Chief Stevenson, and we discussed the threats
that we had had.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, that was, of course, after you had heard about the
threats and after you had talked to Decker?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And I think you mentioned you talked to Decker a little
after 11 o'clock?
Mr. CURRY. Well, it was probably before that.
Mr. HUBERT. I wanted to bring that to your attention because it seems
to me it must have been earlier than that.
Mr. CURRY. Yes; it was. Because we had to get the armored car in there
after that. Anyway, after it was determined we would move him, Chief
Batchelor, I believe, and Chief Stevenson and myself discussed this
security and we decided it would be best to get an armored car down
there in the event some one, some group tried to take our prisoner away
from us, it would be better to have him in an armored car.
So. Chief Batchelor called the man, I don't recall his name now, that
runs the armored motor service here in Dallas, and requested that we be
furnished with an armored car, and I was told later that they had two
sizes, an overland truck and a city truck and they would send them both
over there when they could get the drivers and we could use whichever
one we wanted.
Well, as I understand it, during this time the questioning of Oswald
continued up in Captain Fritz' office, and I believe it was about a
quarter to 11 or around 11 when we were told the armored cars were
there and they backed them into the basement and they wouldn't go all
the way down because of the height of the vehicle, and one of them was
parked on the ramp and officers were placed on each side of it. In the
meantime, I understand that the basement had been completely cleaned
out of any unauthorized persons.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell me why it was that the Commerce Street exit
was chosen to put the armored car in and for the cars carrying Oswald
to leave in, rather than the Main Street exit?
Mr. CURRY. Because Commerce Street is one way east and all the traffic
comes in on Main Street.
Mr. HUBERT. Main Street is two-way traffic?
Mr. CURRY. It is two-way traffic and the exit is one way east, so the
vehicles were placed there.
Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of geographical fact, except for the fact that
you would have been going the wrong way, up the Main Street ramp and
that you had two-way traffic on Main Street, the actual closest route
would have been to go up the Main Street ramp, turn left up Main Street
and go down?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; it would. It would have been about three or four blocks
closer, because when we came out of Commerce you had to go east to the
second block and make a turn one block and make a turn back west.
Mr. HUBERT. Chief, have you any comment to make as to why the longer
route instead of the shorter route was taken?
Mr. CURRY. Well, just because ordinarily we don't violate traffic rules
and regulations in the transfer of prisoners and we thought this was
the normal route that should be taken and that's the reason it was set
up that way.
Mr. HUBERT. The original decision, as I remember it, was to go through
the Commerce Street exit and then turn left up to North Central?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And then turn left again and go to Elm and then go on down
to the county jail?
Mr. CURRY. When I went back up into the homicide office and told Fritz
about our plans of transferring the prisoner, he was not particularly
pleased with the idea of putting the prisoner in the armored car.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say why?
Mr. CURRY. He said if someone tried to take our prisoner, he felt like
we ought to be able to maneuver and he felt that this would be too
awkward in in this heavy armored car and he preferred that the prisoner
be transferred in a regular police car with detectives.
Mr. HUBERT. Was a policeman to drive the armored car?
Mr. CURRY. No; not the armored car.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that a factor, too--I suppose--it wouldn't be a member
of the police force under your control driving that car?
Mr. CURRY. No; but he felt like--Fritz said if anyone tried to take
our prisoner we should be in a position to be able to cut out of the
caravan or to take off or do whatever was necessary to protect our
prisoner.
So, I didn't argue with him about it--there was some merit to his plan,
so I told him, "Well, okay, but we would still use the armored car
as a decoy and let it go right on down just as we had planned and if
anyone planned to try to take our prisoner away from us, they would be
attacking an empty armored car," and that his vehicle with the prisoner
in it would have cut out of the caravan and proceeded immediately to
the county jail and the prisoner would be taken into the county jail,
and the way we figured it, he would be there before the other caravan
got there.
Well, he asked me if everything was ready and I said, "Yes, as far as
I know, everything is ready to go," and this was a little after 11
o'clock and I said, "Well, I'll go on down to the basement," and was
en route to the basement when I was called to the telephone and Mayor
Cabell was on the telephone wanting to know something about the case,
how we were progressing, what was going on, and while I was talking to
him they made this transfer and Oswald was shot in the basement, and
he was rushed to Parkland Hospital and I was notified that he had been
shot in the basement.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know about his being shot before he moved to the
hospital in the ambulance?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, they called me from the jail office and said he had
been shot and an ambulance had been ordered.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, after the shooting, what action did you take--that is,
the shooting of Oswald?
Mr. CURRY. Well, I don't recall any particular action I took. I was
told the man who shot him was in custody and was up in the jail. I
think I notified the mayor that the man had been shot while I was
still on the telephone with him and then I waited up in my office for
word from Parkland Hospital, and about 1:30, or I believe about 1:30,
we were informed that he had expired, and during this time I had been
informed that the man who shot him was a nightclub operator named Jack
Ruby, and that he was in custody up in the jail.
After I was informed that Oswald had died, I made an announcement to
news media that he had expired and that we had the man who shot him in
custody and as I recall, that's about the extent of my activity on that
day.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether on Sunday, November 24, it came to
your attention that Ruby had stated that he entered the jail through
the Main Street ramp?
Mr. CURRY. I heard that, but I don't know who told it to me. I just
heard a rumor that he had come in through the Main Street ramp. I
understood that he told some more people that up in the jail.
After this happened, I immediately set up an investigative team to try
to find out what happened.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you say "immediately," you mean on the 24th?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And who was that?
Mr. CURRY. Inspector Sawyer, Capt. O. A. Jones.
Mr. HUBERT. What were your instructions to them?
Mr. CURRY. To interrogate everyone that had anything to do with this
and find out what they knew about it, what had happened and how and why
and how it occurred.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to state that your instructions were then to
find out exactly the truth?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; absolutely.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you did receive a report from them ultimately?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, I did.
Mr. HUBERT. And I take it, of course, that you studied it?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. As I remember the report, it made certain specific findings
as to how Ruby entered and so forth?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, according to the report he did come down the Main
Street ramp.
Mr. HUBERT. From your study of the report and all the statements that
you got, are you satisfied with the conclusions reached in the report?
Mr. CURRY. I believe this is the way he came in. I don't believe the
officer at the top of the ramp where he came in, I don't believe
that he knew that he went by, but I do state this, that I think the
proper security was set up, and that had each officer carried out his
assignment, I believe the transfer would have been made safely, and
while I, as head of the department, have to accept responsibility for
the security, I can say this, that the proper security was set up.
It was a failure of one man to carry out his assignment properly that
permitted this man, apparently, to come into the basement of the city
hall.
Mr. HUBERT. And that man you mean is Roy Vaughn?
Mr. CURRY. Vaughn--Officer Vaughn, the officer assigned to the Main
Street ramp.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there any kind of influence of any sort whatsoever or
suggestions exercised upon you or made to you concerning the transfer
of Oswald by either Mayor Cabell or City Manager Crull?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; they left it up to me.
Mr. HUBERT. Chief, as you know, there has been some suggestion that a
desire to satisfy the press dictated the time of the movement and the
route. I think you ought to have an opportunity at this time to recall
your own observations as to what influence, if any, considerations of
pleasing the press entered into any of these plans?
Mr. CURRY. Well, I would only say this, that we were trying in the
police department to let the press have an opportunity to observe the
proceedings as they were. This is an event that had not been--the like
of the event had not been seen or heard, I think, in this century.
I didn't have any particular ones to come to me and insist that this be
done in this manner. I saw no particular harm in allowing the media to
observe the prisoner, and with no laws against it, and no policies that
had ever been set up stating that the news media would not be allowed
to see a prisoner.
There was no way for us to take the prisoner from the homicide office
to the jail and back without the news media seeing him. I was besieged
actually by the press to permit them to see Oswald. They made such
remarks as, "The public has a right to see, to know," I didn't want
them to think that we were mistreating Oswald; that we were carrying on
this investigation in a normal manner, and that this case was handled
as probably any other case would have been handled, although this had
more national appeal, you might say, and had some curiosity to it, than
some of the other cases we have handled.
But certainly the fact that the news media was permitted to see him and
to take pictures of him was not anything unusual. This has always been
done, but not to this extent because we didn't have this much press
present.
Mr. HUBERT. As I understand what you are saying, it is that had it
not been for the fact that the victim was Oswald, if it was Oswald,
and it was the President involved, this would have been quite normal
procedure, that is to say, the press would have been allowed to see
him, you would have told them when he was going to be moved?
Mr. CURRY. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. And allowed them to take pictures?
Mr. CURRY. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. Was any suggestion made to you by anybody that it would be
best to disregard those considerations with respect to the press and
use another route in making the transfer at another time?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; not that I recall. Fritz and I, I think, discussed
this briefly, the possibility of getting that prisoner out of the
city hall during the night hours and by another route and slipping
him to the jail, but actually Fritz was not too much in favor of this
and I more or less left this up to Fritz as to when and how this
transfer would be made, because he has in the past transferred many
of his prisoners to the county jail and I felt that since it was his
responsibility, the prisoner was, to let him decide when and how he
wanted to transfer this prisoner.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you didn't, in any case, give him instructions not to
transfer the prisoner at a time when he could not be observed by the
press?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; that's right.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to state that had he done so, it would have been
satisfactory to you?
Mr. CURRY. I would not have complained about it.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether Fritz' decision not to move him prior
to the time that had been announced to the press was motivated by
considerations of the press?
Mr. CURRY. I don't know whether it was or not. I think this--that he
didn't know how long he would be interrogating. I don't believe Fritz
wanted to move him at night. I think he wanted to move him in the
daytime so that he could see anyone that might be trying to cause him
any trouble.
Mr. HUBERT. Your thought is that, therefore, Fritz' decision not to
move him at night was dictated by considerations of security?
Mr. CURRY. I believe so; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Chief, I believe that I ought to offer you the opportunity
to state for the record here as an overall proposition what you
consider to be the cause of what was obviously a security breakdown?
Mr. CURRY. I think the cause of the breakdown was the fact that
Officer Vaughn left his post to assist this Lieutenant Pierce, and I
believe Sergeant Dean, and I don't know who else was in the car, as
they left the basement of the city hall going the wrong way on the
ramp, and Officer Vaughn stepped across the sidewalk which he had
been instructed, so I am told, to guard that ramp--to let only police
officers or bona fide news media enter there. He momentarily stepped
away from his assignment and while he was away from this assignment,
our investigation shows that Jack Ruby went behind him and entered
the ramp and went to the bottom of the ramp and stood behind some
detectives and news media.
Mr. HUBERT. Concerning the security at the top of the Main Street ramp
where Vaughn was, what observations have you to make about that means
of entry being guarded by one man only instead of, say, more?
Mr. CURRY. Well, actually, this seemed to be the least risk in our
security plan. All of the crowd and vehicles and everything was over on
Commerce Street and there was very little over on Main Street, actually
very little activity at all. It was only about a 12-foot ramp there
that he had to guard.
Mr. HUBERT. And he was standing right in the middle of it?
Mr. CURRY. Had he stayed on his assignment, I don't see how Ruby could
have gotten in.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course, when the Pierce car came up, he obviously had
to move away, but your thought is he moved too far away from his
assignment?
Mr. CURRY. He moved too far away from his assignment. He apparently
was assisting this vehicle to get across the sidewalk, I think it was
10 or 12 feet wide, and into the street. Actually, he should have just
stepped to one side and let the vehicle come by.
Now, this officer was put on a polygraph to determine whether or not he
knew that Ruby went by him and according to the test, the results of
the test, he did not realize that Ruby went by him.
Mr. HUBERT. Chief, in addition to your testimony, I have shown you
two documents which I think you have read, and I am marking for
identification as follows, to-wit: The first one is a report of an
interview of you by FBI Agent Vincent Drain on November 25, the
document consisting of two pages, and I am marking on the first page
"Dallas, Tex., April 15, 1964, Exhibit 5313, deposition of Chief J. E.
Curry," and I am signing my name on that, and on the second page I am
placing my initials.
With respect to the second document, it seems to be a copy of an
interview of you made by FBI Agent Leo Robertson on December 10, 1963,
and I am marking on the margin of the first page, as follows: "Dallas,
Tex., April 15, 1964, Exhibit 5314, deposition of Chief J. E. Curry,"
and I am signing my name at the bottom of that page, and since the
document has a second page, I am placing my initials at the bottom of
the second page.
Now, I am going to ask you if you would mind signing your name where
my name appears and your initials where my initials are, so that the
record will show we both are talking about the same document?
Mr. CURRY. Okay.
(Signed document as requested by Counsel Hubert.)
Mr. HUBERT. Then I am going to ask you whether you have any comments to
make about those two documents? Would you initial the second page, too?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; I will.
(Witness Curry initialed instruments as requested by Counsel Hubert.)
Mr. HUBERT. Now, Chief, have you had an opportunity to read both of
those documents?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; I looked them over.
Mr. HUBERT. Do they represent the truth so far as you know of the
interviews that they purport to cover?
Now, if you have any comments to make or deletions or modifications or
changes, or if you find that those documents are incorrect, I would
like for you to say so, because what we will have to do is to get into
the record what is correct and not what is not correct.
Mr. CURRY. [Examining instruments as referred to.] Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Are they correct, sir? Do you have any comments or
deletions?
Mr. CURRY. No; I don't have any comments. As far as I know--as far as I
can recall, this is about what happened.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, have you ever been interviewed by any member of the
Commission's staff prior to this time?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I had a little conversation with you over in my
office.
Mr. HUBERT. That was about 2 weeks ago when I was present in Dallas?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there anything that occurred during that conversation
that has not been covered here?
Mr. CURRY. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, finally, is there anything at all you would like to
make a matter of record concerning this whole thing? You are at liberty
to say anything you want to say.
Mr. CURRY. No; the only thing I would like to say is that I deeply
regret the incidents that occurred and I feel like we did everything
that could be expected of us as a police department to set up the
security of the President and to cooperate with all agencies that had a
responsibility in this matter, that we certainly would have liked for
Oswald to have remained alive and faced trial.
According to the information that was given to me by the homicide
bureau, we had developed a very good case on him and would have been
able to, I'm sure, would have been able to convict him in a court of
law.
Jack Ruby--I do not know, I did not know. It has been intimated that a
great many of the Dallas police officers did know him, but from what
I've been able to find out, there were some police officers who knew
him, but most of them knew him because of the fact they had conducted
police business with him at his place of business. There were a few,
perhaps, that knew him and had gone to his place of business for social
activities, but it was certainly not--he is not known by the majority
of the police department.
Mr. HUBERT. Chief, perhaps you would like to comment on two
things--one, is that, as you know, there has been some talk or rumor,
of course, that the police department cooperated, or some members of
it, with Ruby for an opportunity for Ruby to shoot Oswald.
Have you looked into that, and if you have, would you give us your
observations about it?
Mr. CURRY. My instructions to the investigating officers were to go
into every facet of this incident and to uncover any information that
might indicate that any police officer cooperated in any way with
letting Ruby get in a position to where he could have an opportunity to
shoot Oswald.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you find any evidence that would indicate anything?
Mr. CURRY. No evidence whatsoever were we able to find.
Mr. HUBERT. You were looking for such?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; we certainly were.
Mr. HUBERT. Chief, what was your intention had you found such evidence?
Mr. CURRY. Proper action would have been taken.
Mr. HUBERT. And by that you mean what?
Mr. CURRY. The officer, if criminal negligence had been established, he
would have been filed on by us.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, there has been also the rumor that while the police
did not actively cooperate, that they saw Jack Ruby there, didn't pay
much attention to him, were really appalled when he did what he did,
and then after that, engaged in a cover-up activity to preserve the
reputation of the police department. Can you tell us whether your
investigative efforts were directed toward uncovering any evidence
which might throw light on that matter?
Mr. CURRY. This investigation which was conducted was a completely
impartial investigation.
We in the police department for a number of years have felt like if
there is anything wrong in our department, we want to know it, and if
actions of the officers are improper, an examination of our records
through the years will show that we have taken whatever action was
indicated, whether this be filing on a man for law violations or for
improper conduct or whatever it might be. The seriousness of the
offense is certainly not covered up and through the years we have a
reputation for a high standard of conduct and the integrity of the
department has not been questioned.
Mr. HUBERT. You are satisfied that from all you know that there has
been no effort to cover up?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; not to my knowledge, and had there been and it had
come to my knowledge, I certainly would have done something about it.
Mr. HUBERT. You are satisfied that the evidence shows that really Ruby
came through one man?
Mr. CURRY. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. And that was Vaughn?
Mr. CURRY. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you anything else to say, chief?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I believe not.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, sir, on behalf of the Commission and myself
personally, I want to thank you very much for coming here and being
frank and contributing, I think, a great deal of the permanent record
in this matter.
Mr. CURRY. Thank you, sir, if there is anything that I might know that
I haven't brought out, I will be happy to. The only thing I can say is
that our security broke down at one place. I can't deny that, and I
don't think it intentional on the part of the police department to have
this thing occur.
Mr. HUBERT. I think that's covered. I wanted to ask you those questions
and I think they are going to be asked and we are going to have an
answer to them now and you are the man to do it. Thank you very much,
chief.
Mr. CURRY. All right. Thank you.