Mr. CURRY. The prisoners' elevator.
Mr. HUBERT. That leads all of the police department down into the
basement into the jail?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir; go ahead.
Mr. CURRY. So, we warned them not to try to interfere with him or
anything else and we would let them see him. We did take him down and
let them briefly see him--this was just a very short time.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you present then?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; I was.
Mr. HUBERT. Who else was present, among the police officers you recall?
Mr. CURRY. I don't recall--I think Fritz was--I don't know that he was
in the room, and there was a couple of detectives who brought the
suspect in. Henry Wade and Alexander were in the vicinity--they were
not right there with me, so when we brought him in, the news media
started then to trying to talk to him and he was only there for a few
seconds and we removed him.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see, during the time you were in the assembly room
that you have just been speaking about, the man you now know as Jack
Ruby in that room?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I didn't. I understood he was there, but I didn't
see him, and would not have known him had I seen him.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, that's correct, but now that you do know him?
Mr. CURRY. I didn't recognize him.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't recognize him?
Mr. CURRY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Your present memory doesn't associate the man you now know
as Jack Ruby with being in that room?
Mr. CURRY. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, can you tell us why Oswald was moved for the purpose
of charging him in the case of Tippit, and subsequently in the case of
the President?
Mr. CURRY. I don't know in the case of Tippit. I wasn't there. I
mean, I wasn't present when he was charged, but he was charged with
the murder of the President--he was charged in the lobby of the
identification bureau, which is on the fourth floor of the police
department, and he was brought out of the jail into the identification
bureau and the charge was read to him by Judge David Johnston.
Mr. HUBERT. What I am trying to get at is what security measures were
observed with reference to him during the time that he was moved
through these crowds of people?
Mr. CURRY. Officers surrounded him. We had officers in front and in the
back and by the side of him as he was moving--usually two detectives,
two or three uniformed officers, when he moved through the crowds.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand you said that there was a huge crowd on the
third floor?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And I would take it that there was a rather large crowd in
the assembly room?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; there were several--a good many there.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to say that other than on the third floor, when
he was being moved and when he was in the assembly room, he was not
exposed in any way?
Mr. CURRY. No; he was not.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, there were no persons around him but police
then?
Mr. CURRY. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, when he was moved through the hall, however many times
he was at the third floor--of course, you had this mob of newsmen and
there were a group of newsmen in the assembly room?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What I am getting at--what security measures were taken,
if you know, with respect to who was in that crowd of newsmen of the
people in the assembly room?
Mr. CURRY. I don't know, other than on the third floor. I know that
there was some police reservists and a police sergeant who was
screening people who came up on the third floor.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, how would they screen them?
Mr. CURRY. As they got off of the elevator, I would observe that they
would check them, apparently asking for identification.
Mr. HUBERT. The elevator would be the only way to get up there?
Mr. CURRY. The stairway, they could get up the stairway. The officers
were so located that had someone come up the stairway they would have
seen them too.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the officers checking the elevator could
also check the staircase?
Mr. CURRY. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether any instructions had been given to
those officers?
Mr. CURRY. I don't know of my knowledge, but I observed them checking
the people who came in.
Mr. HUBERT. Whose responsibility would it have been to post those
officers for the purpose of checking there?
Mr. CURRY. Usually the captain on duty in that building--that would
have been Captain Talbert, I believe, but it could have been someone
else. Had they observed the need for it, they could have issued orders
to get someone else.
Mr. HUBERT. Obviously, someone must have posted two men there?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you say you have in the department any standard
operative procedures to cover a situation like that?
Mr. CURRY. Not exactly this type incident.
Mr. HUBERT. So, in any case, you observed that that was a security
check going on?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Is the same thing approximately true about the group that
was in the assembly room when Oswald was brought down?
Mr. CURRY. Well, now, I don't know that they were all checked as they
went into the assembly room.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you give any instructions about the security of Oswald
there?
Mr. CURRY. No; I just told them to keep the newsmen--and I told the
newsmen they would have to stay back inside the confines of the room
and not approach the prisoner.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me put it this way--generally speaking, did you give
any specific instructions regarding the security of Oswald, during that
period we are talking about?
Mr. CURRY. No, not this period--no.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what system of checking for identification was
being used by the officers on the third floor guarding the elevator and
staircase?
Mr. CURRY. I don't know of my own knowledge. I could see them checking
the people to see whether they were up to do police business or whether
they were newsmen trying to cover the incident. We were carrying on
the normal business we would conduct, and this would bring a great
many people to the third floor, relatives of prisoners, complainants,
various people that would come to the other bureaus.
Mr. HUBERT. Normally, there would be no police checking those two
elevators?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. So that, I suppose it is fair to state, isn't it, that the
main function of that check was to keep curiosity seekers out of the
way?
Mr. CURRY. That's right--that's right.
Mr. HUBERT. And to check also to see if anybody had any legitimate
business there?
Mr. CURRY. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I think we can just continue on then.
Mr. CURRY. Well, after Oswald was arraigned, I went back to my
office--I went home a little while after that and that was, I believe,
Saturday night.
Mr. HUBERT. No; that would be Friday night.
Mr. CURRY. Yes; Friday night, yes; and Saturday morning I came
down to the office and I don't remember any particular outstanding
incident that occurred during the day. It was a rather routine
investigation--there continued the investigation from the homicide
division section on the murder of the President.
Mr. HUBERT. Was the crowd of newspapermen still there?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; they stayed there.
Mr. HUBERT. Were the security measures you have described still in
force?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; they stayed.
Mr. HUBERT. It was neither more nor less?
Mr. CURRY. It was about the same. I had several conferences during the
day with various staff members and I was kept informed of the progress
of the investigation. Late that evening, the different members of
the press, news media, began to ask me when we were going to transfer
Oswald because he had been filed on, and I told them I didn't know,
that this was something that would be left up to Captain Fritz because
he was conducting the investigation and the interrogation, and usually
he would be the one to determine when he was ready to transfer the
prisoner.
Mr. HUBERT. When a prisoner is formally charged, as Oswald had been,
what is the normal procedure to transfer the prisoner to the State
prison?
Mr. CURRY. There are two ways it is done. Sometimes the bureau
transfers the person to the sheriff's office, and sometimes the
sheriff's office sends up and gets them.
Mr. HUBERT. And either type is usual?
Mr. CURRY. Either one is acceptable.
Mr. HUBERT. Had Decker made any request to you to deliver what, in
effect, was his prisoner?
Mr. CURRY. Not at this time.
Mr. HUBERT. So, on Saturday night, that would be the 23d, you were
asked, I think, by the newsmen?
Mr. CURRY. When we were going to transfer him and I told them I didn't
know.
Mr. HUBERT. All right; go on from there.
Mr. CURRY. And some of them asked if "They are going to transfer him
tonight?" And I said, "I don't think so." Then, I talked to Fritz
about when he thought he would transfer the prisoner, and he didn't
think it was a good idea to transfer him at night because of the fact
you couldn't see, and if anybody tried to cause them any trouble,
they needed to see who they were and where it was coming from and so
forth, and he suggested that we wait until daylight, so this was normal
procedure, I mean, for Fritz to determine when he is going to transfer
his prisoners, so I told him, "Okay." I asked him, I said, "What time
do you think you will be ready tomorrow?" And he didn't know exactly
and I said, "Do you think about 10 o'clock," and he said, "I believe
so," and then is when I went out and told the newspaper people, the
news media that we were not going to transfer him that night and some
of them asked, "When should we be back, when are you going to transfer
him?" And I said, "I don't know," because I didn't know when we were
going to transfer him. Some of them said, "When should we back?" I made
the remark then, "I believe if you are back here by 10 o'clock you will
be back in time to observe anything you care to observe."
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us whether on Saturday night any plans had
been made for the transfer?
Mr. CURRY. Not on Saturday night, I don't believe.
Mr. HUBERT. Then, you went home?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Then, let's pick up with the 24th.
Mr. CURRY. On Sunday morning, I came down to the office, and, as I
recall, it was probably 8:30 or 8:45 when I got to the office, and as
I parked my car in the basement of the city hall and started up to
our office, I noticed that a large camera had been set up out in the
hallway between the jail office and the end of the corridor immediately
in front of the jail office, and it was in the way of traffic, and
Lieutenant Wiggins came out and I told him--I told Lieutenant Wiggins,
I said, "You are going to have to move this camera out of here," and
then I told Wiggins, I said, "Now, if the news media come down here and
want in, put them over behind the rail." There is a rail separating
the ramp that comes down in the basement from the parking area. There
were two cars in there, I believe a patrol wagon and a squad car and I
told him to move those vehicles out and if the news media came down and
wanted to observe from the basement, that they were to be placed back
over in this area.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to state, then, that in your own mind, you had
determined that the way to move him was through the basement area?
Mr. CURRY. Yes. I believe about this--Chief Stevenson and Chief
Batchelor approached me--I think they had been there earlier, and I
told them I thought the best thing to do was to set up our security
down there and bring Oswald down there and transfer him on to the
county jail.
I went on up to the office and Chief Batchelor and Chief Stevenson, I
think, remained in the basement a while and Captain Talbert was down
there.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you delegate to any specific person the security of
Oswald?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I could see that he was being taken care of by the
captain on duty, Captain Talbert, and Lieutenant Wiggins was assisting
in it, so I didn't see any need to particularly call some officer
over there and say, "Look, you are in charge of this security in this
basement." It was being taken care of, I could see.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, for the record, will you tell us what you saw that
satisfied you that it was being taken care of?
Mr. CURRY. Officers were being stationed at the strategic points in
the basement to screen people coming in, and they were moving out the
vehicles as I asked them to, so I went on upstairs and I told Chief
Batchelor and Chief Stevenson that we should clean out everything in
the basement and screen everything that came back in.
Mr. HUBERT. When you ordered everything to be "screened" did you give
any specific instructions?