The testimony of Sheriff J. E. (Bill) Decker was taken at 10:44 a.m.,
on April 16, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office
Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert,
Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of J. E. (Bill) Decker.
Mr. Decker, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory
staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission under the
provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the
joint resolution of Congress 137, and the rules of procedure adopted
by the Commission in conformity with the Executive order and the joint
resolution. I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from
you, Sheriff Decker. I state to you now that the general nature of the
inquiry of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and to
report upon facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy
and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.
In particular as to you, Sheriff Decker, the nature of the inquiry
today is to determine what facts you may know about the death of Oswald
and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry,
including the security of Oswald, and the method and so forth by which
he was killed.
I think, Sheriff Decker, that you have appeared here today by virtue of
a letter written to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin?
Mr. DECKER. Yes; I think that's correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is the General Counsel of the staff of the President's
Commission?
Mr. DECKER. I know there was a letter--anyway, I am here due to that
reason.
Mr. HUBERT. I had the impression you had a letter, but let me say this,
that in any event, you are appearing here by virtue of a request made
to appear here?
Mr. DECKER. I was notified by the U.S. Secret Service to appear here
and I presume that was a summons.
Mr. HUBERT. Then, that would be because we did not wish to go through
the formalities here?
Mr. DECKER. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. In that case, however, I must state to you that under the
rules and regulations of the Commission, every witness is entitled to a
3-day written notice before appearing.
Mr. DECKER. I understand.
Mr. HUBERT. But the Commission does provide that the witness may waive
that 3 days' notice and I now ask you if you are willing to waive it
and testify now?
Mr. DECKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand up, please, and I will administer the oath?
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. DECKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your name?
Mr. DECKER. Bill Decker.
Mr. HUBERT. Your age?
Mr. DECKER. Sir, 66.
Mr. HUBERT. And your residence?
Mr. DECKER. 6302 Palo Pinto.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?
Mr. DECKER. I am sheriff of Dallas County.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been sheriff?
Mr. DECKER. Since January 1, 1949.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you have been reelected a number of times?
Mr. DECKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. How many times?
Mr. DECKER. I am serving my 16 years--I had two of those--one of those
terms for a 4-year term, but we caught 2 years prior to that--that
makes 4 from 16, leaves 12, 3 and 1 is 4 terms and I am coming for my
fifth now.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your occupation prior to the time that you became
sheriff?
Mr. DECKER. I was chief deputy sheriff for Dallas County 14 years prior
to that. Prior to that I was chief deputy constable since 1924, prior
to that I was in the courthouse as a court clerk and prior to that I
was elevator operator in the courthouse. Now, that's it--that's my life.
Mr. HUBERT. You started really at the bottom you might say, and went up?
Mr. DECKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You are married, of course?
Mr. DECKER. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You have a family?
Mr. DECKER. I have one adopted son.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I--as I understand it, it is your responsibility to
operate the State or county jail for those prisoners who are either
serving terms that may be served there, or who are awaiting a trial in
Dallas County and do not make bond, is that correct, sir?
Mr. DECKER. That is correct. I am keeper of the county security
building, of the county jail, which maintains the prisoners.
Mr. HUBERT. That is located where?
Mr. DECKER. 505 Main Street, the corner of Main and Houston, and it
extends to the corner of Elm and Houston in the rear.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, when prisoners are put in your custody or you take
them into your custody who are awaiting trial, where are they placed,
in cell blocks or something of that sort?
Mr. DECKER. Oh, yes; we have a jail there with a capacity of 750
prisoners.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you have what might be called maximum security there?
Mr. DECKER. Yes; I do--there are many maximums--I have 450
maximum-security cells that's the latest that can be built. The others
are built in the old jail which was built in 1913. Of course, my steel
isn't so good in that old jail.
Mr. HUBERT. By maximum security, you mean, of course, maximum security
from the standpoint that the prisoner can't get out?
Mr. DECKER. It is tool proof steel, one, and two, it is the modern
locks. The man who maintains it--the opening and closing of the doors
to it is in a cell block where the prisoners could not get to him
unless he did as a couple of my boys did the other day, I'm sorry to
say. You don't need to put that in there. They are no longer with me.
They opened the door when they had no business to and they lost their
jobs and I lost five prisoners.
Mr. HUBERT. Does maximum security as it operates with you include
considerations of security to the prisoner himself?
Mr. DECKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you consider it to be your function, not merely to
secure the prisoner so that he may be brought to justice or acquitted,
but also so that his personal security will be maintained and he will
not be injured, either by other prisoners or by outsiders?
Mr. DECKER. Well, I even go further than that.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, will you tell us about that?
Mr. DECKER. A prisoner that is delivered to me--when the crime is
committed, he is then delivered to me and when he is delivered to me,
from then on I am his keeper. I must furnish his food, his clothing,
get his medication and all the necessities of life required. I must
protect him from a violent prisoner and I also must protect him from a
citizen who would desire to do harm to him.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you consider that your physical set up, and by that I
mean, bricks and cement and steel as well as personnel is adequate to
accomplish the purposes that you have described as maximum security?
Mr. DECKER. We feel that our men are qualified from the training that
is given to them, one; that the jail has passed Federal jail inspection
on many occasions; and we feel that our jail is so constructed that the
prisoner is protected.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, of course, you are aware that a man by the name of Lee
Harvey Oswald was in the custody of the Dallas police?
Mr. DECKER. Yes; I had some officers present when he was arrested.
Mr. HUBERT. From the sheriff's office--sheriff's officers were present?
Mr. DECKER. Yes; sheriff's officers were present in Oak Cliff at the
time. They responded to the assassination of the killing of Tippit, the
same as others. You see, I was at the scene of the assassination of the
President.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. DECKER. When my officers were dispatched there, I also told some
other agencies to send their men over there.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, what is the custom with respect to prisoners who are
captured or taken into custody by the city police when there is no
warrant of arrest?
Mr. DECKER. Most prisoners taken in custody by the city police are
arrested within the corporate limits of the city of Dallas and they in
turn are moved to the city jail, which is located at the corner of Main
and Harwood, or better still, in the 2000 block of Main Street, and
there confined until their period of investigation is completed.
Mr. HUBERT. How long is that?
Mr. DECKER. Well, now, that's a problem I couldn't--there would be no
way to answer that--how long does it take to make some investigation?
Mr. HUBERT. What I had in mind was whether there was any rule,
regulation, or law?
Mr. DECKER. No; someone said once you couldn't hold them over 24 or 36
hours, but where it is, I don't know. The city ordinance under which
most municipalities work is--they have a right to arrest and hold for
investigation until they could determine if a crime has been committed.
That leaves it pretty blank.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, let's assume that a man has been formally
charged and that there has been a capias or warrant----
Mr. DECKER. It's a warrant in this case.
Mr. HUBERT. Of arrest, which authorizes you to arrest the particular
prisoner?
Mr. DECKER. I or one of the constables.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your custom--are there any rules or regulations or
laws?
Mr. DECKER. No; there's no rules or regulations--only this--when a
warrant is issued--when a complaint is filed with my district attorney
or the magistrate, which is the justice of the peace, the warrant
is issued and delivered to the agency. If it is a felony and in the
justice court, it goes to the constable, which this offense we are
speaking about was a felony and should have gone to David Johnston,
justice of the peace, precinct 2, and the warrants were delivered to
the city police.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you are talking about the charge with respect to
Tippit, are you, or the death of the President, or both?
Mr. DECKER. Well, I rather think it was both.
Mr. HUBERT. The warrants then were not put into your possession at all?
Mr. DECKER. No, sir; not at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. And that is in accordance with the custom, too?
Mr. DECKER. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What would normally happen in circumstances such as we are
dealing with here, where warrants were issued about 7 o'clock in one
case, as to Tippit, and a little later about 11 o'clock on the 22d of
November, as to the death of the President, what would be the normal
situation as to your getting control and custody and your becoming the
keeper of these prisoners?
Mr. DECKER. The whole thing would be that if we, if those warrants had
come through the regular channels to us, we would have contacted--I
imagine we would have contacted Captain Fritz because it was a homicide
and that is in his division, and asked him about the prisoner and
discussed with him if he was ready for transfer--if he was going to
transfer or did he want us to transfer. That would have been the normal
procedure with us.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it is normal to have them transfer the
prisoner to you, rather than for you to go and get them, or both?
Mr. DECKER. No; it is normal but it is not too much--they transfer
maybe one-tenth of maybe 1 percent, but as hot a piece of merchandise
as this prisoner was, chances are Captain Fritz and his men would have
attempted to bring him from the city hall to the courthouse.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, except in rare instances, meaning a
situation of this sort, you send your men to the city jail to get them?
Mr. DECKER. Day in and day out. We have a paddy wagon for that purpose
and a driver for the purpose and uniforms and insignias and all on it.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, when did you make any efforts to take custody of
Oswald?
Mr. DECKER. I can't tell you that as to when--the homicide occurred
and the boy was taken in custody in the afternoon and that was on a
Friday--I'm not going to tell you for certain because there was so much
and on Friday afternoon we were taking statements in my office--you
know--this thing happened, occurred just across the street from my
office and we moved all the witnesses when we were on the ground there
at the scene, all the witnesses we could locate--I was working there
and I had Inspector Sawyer, who is there with me, and also Heitman
of the FBI and my assistant chief deputy, and every witness, just as
we picked up a witness that had any information at all, we sent him
directly across the street to my office and reduced his statement to
writing. Then, I talked to Fritz after he arrived.
We had by then located the gun and the ammunition, my officers had
located it in the building, and was awaiting the arrival of the scene
searchers and also the arrival of my scene searchers and Fritz arrived
and then I talked to Fritz and then we went across the street and he
phoned and that's when I learned Oswald had been formerly employed
there at that building.
And, Fritz went to the city--now, here's something I'm uncertain
about--whether I talked to him that afternoon or the next day about
this removal, I cannot tell you because there was so much happening and
so much press in our hair, I couldn't say, but I did discuss with him
and advise with that I wished to be notified when he started to move
this boy, so that I would have my security in shape to receive him when
he arrived there.
Mr. HUBERT. You think that was no later than Saturday, the 23d?
Mr. DECKER. Oh, no; it wasn't. I don't think it was any later than
that--no.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, as I understood you, you couldn't tell
whether it was on Friday or Saturday, but it could not have been Sunday?
Mr. DECKER. No; it wasn't Sunday. I remember there were different
conversations on Sunday, different conversations on Saturday and
different conversations on Saturday night.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, perhaps if you can, you can tell us about these
various conversations, if you remember them--who they were with and
about what time?
Mr. DECKER. Well, on Saturday, the homicide, I believe, if I'm
correct--now, the date of the homicide of Oswald was what?
Mr. HUBERT. It was Sunday the 24th.
Mr. DECKER. The 24th--Sunday. Friday, after we had completed our
investigation and gotten our files together to some extent, we then
closed shop, shall we say, and went back into our routine work, and on
Saturday arrival at our office we then again, I'm reasonably sure that
was the day, we talked about moving Oswald but I just don't remember.
That's one of those things you just don't remember the date.
Mr. HUBERT. But you talked to Fritz?
Mr. DECKER. That's when I talked to Fritz.
Mr. HUBERT. What did Fritz tell you, do you know?
Mr. DECKER. He said he would notify me when he was ready to move.
Mr. HUBERT. He wasn't ready at that time?
Mr. DECKER. He wasn't ready at that time, witnesses were being brought
in, he was still interviewing witnesses. Now, then, later that
afternoon the rumor was out that they were going to bring him down--of
course, we had rumors, rumors, rumors all the day, because we had
worldwide press and they were in the city hall, you couldn't get in the
city hall for them and they were running back and forth down to our
pressroom, and this word was here that they were coming, so late that
afternoon, on Saturday, Jim Kerr was the first man that brought me the
date of the 10 o'clock transfer Sunday morning. Jim Kerr is associated
with channel 5, and there were several of the pressmen in my office and
members of my staff and we were discussing it and later in the evening,
later about 9 o'clock it was getting on to be, and he notified us they
were going to move in and I think I then confirmed that with someone in
the city and they said yes--the next morning at 10 o'clock and then I
went to my home.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they say "Next morning at 10," or not before 10?