The testimony of Chief Jesse E. Curry was taken at 9:15 a.m., on April
15, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr.,
assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Jesse E. Curry of the Dallas
Police Department.
Mr. Curry, my name is Leon Hubert. I'm a member of the advisory
staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission. Under
the provisions of Executive Order of the President, No. 11130, dated
November 29, 1963, the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and
the rules of procedure adopted by the President's Commission and in
conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have
been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Mr. Curry.
I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry
is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the
assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of
Lee Harvey Oswald.
In particular, as to you, Mr. Curry, the nature of the inquiry today
is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any
other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry of the
security of Oswald, the transfer of Oswald, and so forth.
Now, Mr. Curry, I think you have appeared here today by virtue of an
informal request----
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. By the Commission's General Counsel to appear here. It is
my duty to state to you that under the rules adopted by the Commission,
every witness who appears before the Commission is entitled to a 3-day
written notice before his deposition can be taken. The rules also
provide, however, that the 3-day written notice can be waived if a
witness wishes to waive it and go ahead and testify, so I ask you now
if you are ready and willing to testify now and are willing to waive
the 3-day notice?
Mr. CURRY. I am.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you raise your hand and stand, sir, so that you may be
sworn?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before
the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?
Mr. CURRY. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you state your full name?
Mr. CURRY. Jesse Edward Curry.
Mr. HUBERT. Your age, please, sir?
Mr. CURRY. Fifty years of age.
Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside?
Mr. CURRY. 2508 Loving Avenue.
Mr. HUBERT. Dallas?
Mr. CURRY. Dallas, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your present occupation, Chief?
Mr. CURRY. Chief of Police, Dallas Police Department.
Mr. HUBERT. And how long have you been occupying that position?
Mr. CURRY. Since January 20, 1960.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department
altogether?
Mr. CURRY. Since May 1, 1936.
Mr. HUBERT. And how did you begin?
Mr. CURRY. I began, I believe, as a traffic police officer--well, I
worked in a squad car a few days as a patrolman, and then worked as a
traffic officer for several months.
Mr. HUBERT. How old were you when you began?
Mr. CURRY. Twenty-three--I lacked a few months being twenty-three.
Mr. HUBERT. What education have you, Chief?
Mr. CURRY. I graduated from the Dallas high schools--Dallas Technical
High School. I did not go to college. I studied a short time--optometry
a short time after that, after graduating from high school.
Mr. HUBERT. What employment did you have between leaving high school
and joining the police force?
Mr. CURRY. I worked a short time for Vitalic Battery Co., as I recall,
and at the time I entered the police field, I owned a small cleaning
and pressing shop out in East Dallas, which I owned and operated.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you married?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; I am.
Mr. HUBERT. You have a family?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you state who they are, how many children?
Mr. CURRY. I have three step-children--no, it's two step-children, one
son of my own and one daughter of my own.
Mr. HUBERT. I take it that you're practically a lifetime resident of
Dallas?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; I moved here when I was less than a year old.
Mr. HUBERT. It appears to me from what you have said that you began at
the bottom of the ranks in the police department?
Mr. CURRY. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. And would it be fair to say that you worked your way
through, as it were?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Up the line?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; I worked in practically every assignment the
police department has, and through civil service examinations was able
to gain promotions to a detective, sergeant, lieutenant of police,
captain of police, inspector of police, and inspector of police is the
highest civil service rank obtainable.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you attain that rank, Mr. Curry, roughly?
Mr. CURRY. I believe it was about 1951, along about that as
inspector--I don't recall exactly.
Mr. HUBERT. Does the obtaining of that rank in the civil service system
involve special studies?
Mr. CURRY. Well, you must make some special studies in order to
compete with the other men who are trying to reach promotion through
examination. During these years I won a fellowship to Northwestern
University Traffic Institute and attended that school in 1945-46. I
graduated from there. In 1951 I was sent to the FBI National Academy in
Washington, D.C., and I graduated from that school.
Mr. HUBERT. I wish you would tell us other schools or training sessions
you have attended.
Mr. CURRY. Well, I've been to several schools conducted in the Dallas
area. I have been to 2 weeks training school by the department of
public safety in Austin. I have been to several schools conducted by
Southern Methodist University and the FBI here in the Dallas area
through the years. I have also taken correspondence training courses
from the City Managers' Association, and I believe that's about the
extent of my training.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you in service during the war, sir?
Mr. CURRY. I was in what was called the CPA, Civilian Pilot Training.
It was a program that was open to people who were over combat age--in
the Air Force. We did not receive any pay when we first went in. We
volunteered our services and we were taught to fly. We attended ground
training school; I was assigned to Gainesville Junior College and flew
out of Gainesville, out of the airfield there. I was then sent to TCU
in Fort Worth where I continued my studies at TCU and flew out of
Meacham Field, and then I was sent to Amarillo Air Force Base. We were
not on the base, but we were assigned in that area and we waited there
for, it seemed to me like 2 or 3 weeks and never received any training.
We were then notified that we had an opportunity to either ask for
release or discharge from the service because we understood--because of
an oversupply of pilots, or else to remain in the program and be sent
to various branches of the Air Force for various assignments.
At that time, I, along with my buddy whose father advised us that he
thought it was best for us to get out--we applied for a discharge, and
I was discharged, so I was in this about 11 months, at which time I was
discharged and I returned to Dallas and I reported back to my draft
board, and that's the last contact that I had with my draft board.
Mr. HUBERT. And you went back to your duties?
Mr. CURRY. I went back to my duties as police officer. I was assigned
as a detective at the time, and I worked for undercover a few months;
I was then assigned as a sergeant in the traffic division; promoted to
lieutenant of the traffic division; subsequently promoted to captain of
the traffic division. I was then assigned to a police training school.
I attended the FBI school then.
Upon my return from the FBI school, I completed an examination for
promotion to inspector of police and was able to obtain the No. 1
position and was promoted to inspector of police, and assigned to the
police training school.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, that examination and that promotion was civil service?
Mr. CURRY. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. Under the laws of Texas?
Mr. CURRY. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. And perhaps it would be better if you would just continue
testifying--to tell us the various stages.
Mr. CURRY. I was assigned to the various training schools, had charge
of the police training, and also personnel investigation. I was then
appointed assistant chief of police in charge, which assignment is
actually the second in command of the police department--that was in
October of 1953.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, that is a non-civil-service position?
Mr. CURRY. That's an appointive job.
Mr. HUBERT. Who appointed you to that job?
Mr. CURRY. Well, the chief appointed me, I'm sure, on the approval of
the city manager.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was the chief at that time?
Mr. CURRY. Carl F. Hansson [spelling], H-a-n-s-s-o-n.
Mr. HUBERT. All right; go on.
Mr. CURRY. I served in that capacity until Chief Hansson resigned, and
at that time I was appointed chief of police. I was appointed acting
chief of police in December and when his name was removed from the
rolls in January 1960, I was appointed chief of police.
Mr. HUBERT. He resigned voluntarily?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; he did.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it because of old age?
Mr. CURRY. I don't know exactly why he resigned. He left us to go
as executive secretary of the Citizens Traffic Commission here in
Dallas, and he served in that capacity for some year or so and resigned
from that capacity, and then he went as chief of the Mesquite Police
Department and remained there a year or two and at the present time is
in an advisory capacity at Richardson, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you were second in command at the time you were
appointed chief of police?
Mr. CURRY. That's true.
Mr. HUBERT. And you had been actually for some time?
Mr. CURRY. About 7 years.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was the city manager who appointed you?
Mr. CURRY. Elgin Crull, I believe he was at the time I was appointed.
He was when I was appointed chief of police, because I recall--I
don't recall exactly who was city manager at the time I was appointed
assistant chief. I believe Chuck Ford, I believe, was.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course, as you said, the assistant chief of police and
the chief of police, are non-civil service?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you still maintain civil service status in the event of
a reduction?
Mr. CURRY. In a reduction?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. CURRY. In rank; you are supposed to return to the rank where you
were when appointed.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you, of course, as chief of police, have under you a
number of assistant and deputy chiefs of police and then captains of
the various divisions and so forth. Who made those appointments?
Mr. CURRY. They are under civil service except for the assistant chief
and the deputy chiefs and I make those appointments.
Mr. HUBERT. You made those appointments?
Mr. CURRY. Yes. Now, I didn't make all the appointments, because some
of them were in those positions when I was appointed chief. I appointed
Batchelor as assistant chief of police and I appointed Fisher, who is
in charge of radio patrol, as deputy chief of police, and I think the
rest of them were in their positions when I was made chief and I left
them there.
Mr. HUBERT. You had the authority to move them, I take it, but you
chose to leave them there?
Mr. CURRY. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, everybody else was in his position by
virtue of civil service?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I would like to direct your attention to the time when
the Dallas Police Department first arrested Oswald, and, I assume,
became responsible for him and for his security. I believe that it was
that he was arrested at the Texas Theatre?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And almost immediately moved to the Dallas Police
Department offices?
Mr. CURRY. So I understand; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us what you know about the matter from that
point on, and it may be just as well if you will tell it in a narrative
fashion. I will ask you some questions as we go along, or perhaps wait
until the end to fill in. We will see how it works out. Briefly, what
we want to know is what you know about the whole thing.
Mr. CURRY. Well, on November 22, I was in the lead car of the
Presidential caravan. With me were Secret Service Winston Lawson and
Forrest Sorrels, and the sheriff of Dallas County, Bill Decker, and
we were nearing the triple underpass in the western part of Dallas,
and which is near Stemmons Expressway--it was necessary for us to move
to Elm Street in order to get on the Stemmons Expressway to get the
President's caravan down to the Trade Mart where they were going to
have a luncheon.
I heard a sharp report. We were near the railroad yards at this time,
and I didn't know--I didn't know exactly where this report came from,
whether it was above us or where, but this was followed by two more
reports, and at that time I looked in my rear view mirror and I saw
some commotion in the President's caravan and realized that probably
something was wrong, and it seemed to be speeding up, and about this
time a motorcycle officer, I believe it was Officer Chaney rode up
beside us and I asked if something happened back there and he said,
"Yes," and I said, "Has somebody been shot?" And he said, "I think so."
So, I then ordered him to take us to Parkland Hospital which was the
nearest hospital, so we took the President's caravan then to Parkland
Hospital and they were--the President, the Vice President and the
Governor--were taken into the hospital and I remained at the hospital
for--oh--some hour or so.
At about 1:15 that day--this first incident occurred about 12:30 or so,
and about 1:15 I was notified that one of our officers had been shot,
and a few minutes later was told that he was dead on arrival at the
hospital.
At that time we didn't know who shot him. I was just told it was in
Oak Cliff. I was still at the hospital at this time and I was told by
some of the Secret Service people, I don't recall who, to get my car
ready and another car ready to take the President--we were informed
that President Kennedy had expired--and we were asked to have two
automobiles standing by to take President Johnson to Love Field.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me stop you and ask you this: When you had the news of
the death of Tippit, or the shooting of Tippit, did you associate that
in any way with the President's assassination?
Mr. CURRY. No; I didn't at the time.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir; go on.
Mr. CURRY. In a little while President Johnson came out, and some of
his aides, and got into my car and some of his other people came and
got into another vehicle driven by Inspector Putnam of the Dallas
Police Department, and we were instructed to go to Love Field, to
get there by the nearest route with the least amount of noise, but
to go there as quickly as we could. So I drove to Love Field and
the President got out of the car with his group and went aboard the
Presidential plane.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any idea about what time you left the hospital
to go to Love Field?
Mr. CURRY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, perhaps you can arrive at it this way; you know the
time you arrived there?
Mr. CURRY. It seemed we were there about 30 minutes at the hospital--30
minutes or so, and we probably got there a little after 12:30, so that
would have been around a little after 1:15, I believe.
Mr. HUBERT. It was a little after 1:15 that you started to move to Love
Field?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you know Jack Ruby prior to that time?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. HUBERT. You had never seen him?
Mr. CURRY. If I had ever seen him, I didn't know it. I might have seen
him but I didn't recognize him.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course, now, you know who Jack Ruby is; you have seen
him?
Mr. CURRY. I have seen him in the courtroom.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us whether or not among any of the people that
you saw at the hospital anywhere, whether Jack Ruby was at the hospital?
Mr. CURRY. If he was, I didn't know it.
Mr. HUBERT. That's what I'm asking--you didn't see the man that you now
know to be Jack Ruby?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a reporter from the Washington, D.C., newspaper
who is called Seth Kantor?
Mr. CURRY. I believe he used to be in Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. I believe he was, and moved on to Washington.
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him out there?
Mr. CURRY. I don't recall who all I saw out there--I saw a number of
people out there. If I saw him, I don't recall it. I very easily could
have seen him out there.
Mr. HUBERT. And it follows from what you said before, of course, that
you did not see Kantor with Ruby?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. So, let's go back then to the point we left off, and that
is to say--the arrival at Love Field.
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; we arrived at Love Field with the President and
his party and they got out of the car and got on the plane.
I was informed by someone a little later that Judge Sarah Hughes was
coming out to swear in the President, to give him the oath of office,
and we stood by and when she arrived I escorted her onto the plane and
into the presence of the President and was there while she gave to him
the oath of office. Immediately after he was given the oath of office,
as I recall it, the President said, "Let's get out of here." And I left
the plane with Judge Sarah Hughes and returned to my car and in the
meantime while we were at Love Field, Mrs. Kennedy and some others came
and they loaded the casket onto the plane and she went into the plane.
After I got off the plane, I talked to Mrs. Cabell and to Mayor Cabell
and I waited until the planes left Love Field, and then I went to the
city hall.
Now, as best I recall, it was probably around 4 o'clock when I got
to the city hall, and I started to my office on the third floor, and
when I got off of the elevator there I could see that there was just
pandemonium on the third floor. There was dozens and dozens of newsmen
just crammed into the north end of the corridor. There were television
cables running from down the halls, from the administrative office, and
I went to my office and talked with some of my staff--I don't recall
who all was in there at the time--about what was going on, and I was
told by someone, I believe Chief Stevenson that they had a man named
Oswald whom they believed to be the murderer of Officer Tippit, and
they had been questioning him in Captain Fritz' office.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they advise you at that time, or did they know to your
knowledge that he was also a suspect in regard to the assassination of
President Kennedy?
Mr. CURRY. Someone mentioned that he was also a strong suspect in the
assassination of the President.
Mr. HUBERT. That was at that same time?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. When you got back there?
Mr. CURRY. After I returned from Love Field.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you say Captain Fritz was carrying on the
interrogation?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; that's his responsibility, to investigate murders,
robberies, and rapes, and extortions and things of that kind.
Mr. HUBERT. It's fair to say, then, that the interrogation of Oswald
with respect to either the death of Tippit or of President Kennedy was
in accordance with the normal procedures of the department?
Mr. CURRY. That's correct.
Mr. HUBERT. How long had Captain Fritz been in that position, sir?
Mr. CURRY. A number of years--I don't recall exactly when he was
appointed to his position with the homicide division--probably 15 years
anyway.
I had received a call from the FBI or someone in the FBI, I don't
recall whether it was Shanklin or who, and they were requesting that a
representative of their Bureau be allowed to be present when Oswald was
interviewed.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you agree to that?
Mr. CURRY. I called Fritz in his office and told him we had this
request, and Fritz said, "Okay; we'll let them in."
At that time I understood there was a representative from Secret
Service already in the room and the representative from the FBI went
in--one or two FBI representatives.
It was some time before I ever went to the homicide office myself.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you receive any message around that time or a little
later relayed to you as it were, through FBI agents, that Mr. J. Edgar
Hoover, the head of the FBI, wanted you to know of his concern about
Oswald's security?
Mr. CURRY. Specifically, I don't remember anyone coming to me and
telling me that.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, let's see--I think the last statement you made
was that it was sometime before you actually went to Fritz' office
yourself. Is there anything that happened of significance or that you
want to put in the record with reference to what happened between the
time you got there around a little after 4 and the time you did get in
to see Oswald?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I wasn't particularly interested in seeing him
or interfering with the investigation in any way. I stayed up in the
administrative offices most of the time. I had a number of calls from
various people, I don't recall just who all I talked to. I conferred
with some of my staff during that time and I was kept informed of the
progress of the investigation.
Mr. HUBERT. How were you kept informed?
Mr. CURRY. Usually through Chief Stevenson.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you would move from Captain Fritz'
office----
Mr. CURRY. Either by telephone or go down to the office and talk to him.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, go ahead.
Mr. CURRY. Well, nothing of significance that I can recall occurred.
Later in the evening someone told me that they had enough evidence that
he had been identified as the slayer of our police officer.
Captain Fritz thought he had better go ahead and file on him and I
think it was about 7:30 on the day they did file on him, and I think he
had been down--had been to the showup a time or two--there were some
witnesses who had identified him, so I was told, as being the man who
shot Tippit.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Oswald then, or when was the first time you saw
him?
Mr. CURRY. I don't recall exactly the first time I saw him, but I
believe it was in the evening--in the early evening. When I did see him
I remember that he impressed me as being a sullen, arrogant individual,
and he didn't seem particularly perturbed with the fact that he was
being interrogated or that he was causing such a commotion--he was
pretty cool.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't question him yourself, did you?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. So, he was filed upon about 7:30 with respect to Tippit?
Mr. CURRY. Somewhere around in there--I don't know exactly when it was.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, go ahead.
Mr. CURRY. Then, after he was filed on for this offense, I believe
it was Captain Fritz who told me that they were working now on the
possibility that he was the same suspect or the assassin of the
President, and they began to, when I say "they" I mean Captain Fritz,
principally, told me of some of the evidence that was piling up against
him. In fact, he told me that he worked in this Building and that that
morning he had carried a package into the Building.
Mr. HUBERT. This information was being relayed to you?
Mr. CURRY. Relayed to me by Fritz--just summing up what they found out
about him. He told me that, as I recall, he told me that Oswald had
been in the Building on this day and that one of the Negro porters
had seen him go to the sixth floor, I believe, at lunch time, and
that after the shooting, some of our officers went into the Building
and they saw Oswald at a lunch counter or in the recreation room
and started to approach him or question him and they were told by
Mr. Truly, who is the Building manager, that this was one of their
employees, and I think the officer passed him on up and went on
upstairs to try to determine where these shots came from.
In the meantime, I believe Inspector Sawyer was several blocks away
from there, from that location, and when he heard what was happening,
he immediately went to the location to take over all security and
searching there.
Chief Lumpkin and some of his party went on to Love Field with me
and they went back to the Texas School Book Depository. So, several
minutes elapsed from the time of the shooting until anyone could have
gotten--any officers could have gotten actually to the Building.
As soon as it was feasible or possible, they did seal off this Building
and also that they had checked all of the employees of the Building and
found out that there was one missing, and I think this is when they
suspected him of being involved in the fatal shooting of the President,
and from the description, I believe they began to tie the two suspects
together--the suspect of the shooting of the officer, and all this was
told to me by people of the homicide bureau.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, when we last talked about Oswald, I think it was when
he was being charged with respect to Tippit, and then I gather that the
information you are giving us now is the background for charging him as
the assassin of President Kennedy?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And you were aware of that too--you were still in the
Building?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall a meeting--it has sometimes been called a
showup or a lineup--I don't know that that is accurate, but it took
place in the assembly room.
Mr. CURRY. And some of the members of the press were there, yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, can you tell us what that was about? About what time?
Mr. CURRY. I don't recall exactly the time it was--it was in the
evening, sometime after they had interrogated, I think, Oswald. I think
he had been in the showup once or twice previous to this for witnesses
to observe him, and there were so many newsmen in the halls that they
were not all of them able to see or to get any pictures or any thing
else in the north corridor of the third floor, and some of them asked
me to--sometime during the evening--when they could see Oswald, how
does he look, can we see him?
At this time Henry Wade, the district attorney, was up there and
Alexander was up there.
Mr. HUBERT. He is the assistant district attorney?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; and something was said about--how about letting us see
him or could we see him?
Mr. HUBERT. That was said by Wade or Alexander or by the newsmen?
Mr. CURRY. By the newsmen.
Mr. HUBERT. In the presence of Wade and Alexander?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; as I recall it, I asked Henry Wade, "Do you see
anything wrong with it," and as I recall, he told me, "Not that I know
of, I don't see anything wrong with it." And, so, we told them if they
would go to the assembly room that we would let them see Oswald.
Mr. HUBERT. Is the assembly room located on another floor?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, in the basement; we were on the third floor.
Mr. HUBERT. And the assembly room is in effect--it is a room, as I
recall it, that might seat 50 or 75 people?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And it has a little stage with the usual showup apparatus?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, there is gauze in front of the prisoners,
so that the audience can see them, but the prisoners can't look out.
And there are markings on it as to height and their numbers?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That's the room we are talking about?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, that's the room he was taken to. He was not put on the
stage, he was just put in front of the stage for the showup.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he was not put behind the gauze?
Mr. CURRY. Not this time, I think he was on previous occasions.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; when there was a real lineup for identification?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But this was not an identification lineup?
Mr. CURRY. No; it was the news media clamoring to see him, and they
wanted to know when they could look at him or when they could observe
him, and on the third floor when he was brought to and from the
interrogation room, which was Captain Fritz' office, they had to go
about 20 or 25 feet, and they almost mobbed him every time they would
bring him through.
Mr. HUBERT. You are saying they had to go about 20 or 25 feet to get to
the elevator?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That is the inside elevator, not the public elevator?
Mr. CURRY. That's right.