Q. Officers of----

A. Our division staff officers. And General Loud was there at about the

time the conversation commenced. I think General Matthews joined us

afterwards. There was several of the staff there, and I was there, by

authority of the position which I occupied on the staff, ready to

receive any instructions that might be given.

Q. Was the division all right when Colonel Norris and you overtook

General Brinton?

A. The brigade that was marching in advance was halted, waiting for the

other to close up; the other was staying back in order to give the men

with the Gatling guns time to get up the hill--the brigade in the rear

wouldn't go on and leave the men with the guns back there unprotected.

We had to halt several times, during our march, on that account. Halted

the head of the column, and let the others close up.

Q. Did General Brinton and Colonel Norris sit down and have a

conversation together, upon a bank or a log? Do you recollect that?

A. I don't think they exactly sat down. I think they surrounded, or

stood around, a log or stone, with one foot on it, or grouped

together--pretty close together--and four or five of us lounged around,

waiting for those to close up. I couldn't specify the exact position I

was in. There was nothing said without my hearing it, unless some

whispering, and I didn't notice any.

Q. Did the carriage remain back?

A. Some little distance back of where we were. The driver came up close

to us, when Colonel Norris went to get in again. The carriage

approached us. I don't know exactly the time; and he went away.

Q. Did Colonel Norris say anything about Captain Aull's having an order

for General Brinton?

A. I didn't hear Captain Aull's name mentioned. Never heard of such a

man until long afterwards.

Q. Did he say anything to General Brinton about returning and joining

Colonel Guthrie at Torrens?

A. I didn't hear anything about joining him. General Brinton asked

questions about where the other troops were. Talked to Norris, and made

inquiries where the other troops were, and why they didn't come to his

relief, and how disappointed they were that they didn't come, and

matters of that kind.

Q. Did he tell Colonel Norris that General Latta had given an order to

Captain Aull.

A. I didn't hear anything of the kind. Didn't hear anything said about

orders.

Q. Were you present during the whole of the time that they were

together?

A. I was not more than four paces away all the time they were together.

If anything was said that I didn't hear, it must have been purposely

said in an undertone to avoid being overheard.

Q. Did you know Mr. Stewart, who accompanied Colonel Norris?

A. Didn't know him. Never heard of the man before.

Q. Did you see any person in the group not an officer in the command?

A. No, sir.

Q. Do you recognize Major Stewart here as being the man who came up

with Colonel Norris?

A. No, sir; I didn't recognize him. If that was the man, he looked very

different on that occasion.

Q. Did you see him?

A. I don't remember of seeing him before.

Q. Do you remember of seeing any person?

A. I saw a man in the carriage with Colonel Norris.

Q. Did he accompany you, or did he come up afterwards and join the

group?

A. He must have kept in the background--might have kept back behind

us--didn't crowd up into the group.

Q. But did Brinton and Colonel Norris have any conversation by

themselves?

A. Didn't appear to have any.

Q. Or in an undertone that could not be heard by the others?

A. Didn't hear anything of the kind going on. There appeared to be no

effort to conceal what they were saying from any of the staff. They

talked above an ordinary tone of voice.

Q. Have you given all the conversation that took place as near as you

recollect it?

A. I couldn't give the exact wording of the conversation, as I never

expected to be questioned about it; but the whole tone and manner of

the conversation was as I have stated--asking for information on both

sides, and an expression of disappointment on the part of General

Brinton, why the troops had not joined him, his intentions as to

procuring rest and food for his troops, and his desire, in answer to

Colonel Norris' question what he should do, that Norris should go back

and assist in getting provisions to him, and if there had been any

order given it should certainly have been made known to me at once.

By Mr. Means:

Q. Will you state to this committee what transpired with the troops

during that night in the round-house, and what took place there during

the night--about their going out of the round-house--you were there. I

believe you said that you were about the last man leaving it, didn't

you?

A. Yes; the orders given me require me to be the last man to leave.

Q. If you please, just state to this committee what transpired during

the night about their leaving the round-house, and what condition the

troops were in when they left it, and what condition the round-house

was in?

A. Commencing with after we were stationed in the round-house, the mob

commenced to gather around, and, in a short time, they began to fire

pistols, and throw stones into the windows, smashing all the windows,

and breaking the furniture inside with the missiles they threw in. Shot

the sentinels at the gate, wounded other men inside, most of them not

seriously. We didn't know at that time whether they were seriously

injured or not. Finally, a large number made their appearance with

muskets, and commenced firing with rifle balls.

Q. That was the crowd outside?

A. The crowd outside. Along about dusk this thing got warm.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Was this immediately before retiring from the round-house?

A. Saturday evening about dusk. That had begun to get right hot, balls

commenced to come in very thick and heavy, and some of the rioters

emboldened by our not returning the fire, which we were ordered by

General Pearson not to, had come up to the gates pointing out at the

head of Twenty-eight streets, and commenced sticking their pistols

through the gates, and shot two sentries stationed there.

Q. Soldiers standing there?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Were they Philadelphia soldiers?

A. Yes; they shot those two men. They were dragged away by their

comrades. Still they would not allow us to fire. While this was going

on, we staff officers busied ourselves in making preparations for the

slaughter of the crowd, which we thought was bound to come, and was the

proper thing to do to extinguish the rioters, and stationed soldiers at

the different windows, and got the artillery in proper position--brass

pieces and two Gatlings--gave instructions to the infantry not to fire

until the artillery opened, knowing, of course, the artillery wouldn't

fire without orders from proper authority. When the fire got pretty hot

and the sentries were shot down, General Brinton got pretty warm about

it, and insisted upon being allowed to fire, and went up to one of the

offices where General Pearson made his head-quarters.

Q. Did you go to General Pearson?

A. Went to General Pearson. I followed him in, and he explained the

necessity of being allowed to open fire on the rioters, that he could

not stand this thing any longer, that the men were being shot down in

cold blood, and now was the time; and Pearson says, "No, no; we must

hold on a little longer; the thing must quiet down a little; don't let

us have any more bloodshed"--some such thing as that. General Brinton

replied, that it was only getting worse, the longer we put off the

worse it would be, and Pearson said, "No; we might kill more innocent

people. There might be some innocent women and children killed," and

made replies of that kind to justify himself in not allowing the

firing, which the staff officers standing by--I think about four in

number were present besides the general--they were of opinion it ought

to be done, and still he would not allow it, and several of us made

some remarks on the subject--several of the staff officers.

Q. Be kind enough to state what those remarks were?

A. They were to the effect, that if we were going to do any shooting,

now is the time to do it, and the remark I made to him was, if we were

going to kill anybody--at first I said there were no women and children

in that crowd.

Q. Was that remark made to General Brinton?

A. I made this to General Pearson, in the presence of General Brinton

and some two or three or four other officers.

Q. You were addressing General Pearson?

A. I addressed General Pearson, right over General Brinton's

shoulder--alongside of him. My rank did not justify it, but my old army

rank did, and I presumed to advise him. Says I, "If we are going to do

any killing, these are the men to kill. There are no women and

children--they are all active rioters;" and he replied, "No, don't

fire. You do not know who you will hurt; the artillery will shoot clear

through the crowd." Just at that time the men in charge of the Gatling

gun again moved it nearer the gate, and he saw the motion outside, or

heard the wheels of the gun, and he jumped up and went to the window

and motioned not to fire. "Don't fire, don't fire, don't fire," he

said; "if they fire, the balls might shoot some innocent woman on a

doorstep a mile away down street." That disgusted me so, I sneeringly

remarked, if they were afraid of killing people so far off as that, let

us fire with infantry, that won't hurt any a mile away, by shooting out

of a second story window; and he said, "No, no; don't fire; it will all

quiet down; you will kill some innocent people." Then I turned away in

disgust, and left him. He went down stairs, and was about three

quarters of the opinion to go down in the shadow of the building and

give the command to fire anyhow. I changed my mind, for fear that the

Pittsburgh troops might be coming around the corner. I am sorry

afterwards that I did not give the order.

Q. Were you in the service during the late rebellion?

A. Yes; five years and one week.

Q. What rank?

A. I went in as a private and came out as a colonel and brigade

commander.

Q. As a military officer, what should you have done under the

circumstances?

A. I should have opened fire with every weapon we had, at just about

dusk, from the most available points at the time that General Brinton

asked him to allow him to do so. The mob was so dense at that time they

could hardly have got out of each others way. They were composed of

very different material from the mob at Twenty-eighth street, where the

first conflict occurred, the better class having disappeared, and the

worst came to the front. The criminal classes, vagrants, bummers, and

tramps of every kind, and such men as we call night owls--never seen in

day time, were conspicuous in front, urging each other on. A class of

the population that would benefit the community by fertilizing the

soil. I think at that time, if we had killed those men, it would have

silenced the whole riot.

Q. As a military man and having military experience, do you believe

that General Brinton had force enough there to have cleared that track

and taken possession of the railroad property.

A. At that time, if we had acted at that time, at dusk, we would had no

more trouble.

Q. Do you believe that if General Brinton had the privilege to have let

his command fire on that mob, could he have taken possession of the

track and of the railroad property?

A. Yes; if General Pearson had allowed us to fire at the time General

Brinton wished to do so, we would have destroyed the mob, and could

have taken possession of anything around that neighborhood. All that

would have been left of the mob would not have made any fight.

Q. I understand you to say in your testimony, that the round-house was

on fire before General Brinton's command left it?

A. Yes; all the buildings. We not only occupied the round-house, but

several other buildings that form a yard between them.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Wings of the round-house?

A. There were shops. There is a round-house, and engine houses, and

machine shops, and there was a wood-working shop, and a car repair

shop, and an upholstery shop, and then the company's offices. They are

all connected together, and form a small yard in between them.

Q. Were they attached to the round-house?

A. One came in direct contact with the round-house, or within two or

three feet of it, and another within ten feet of it, and there was a

space wide enough for two teams to pass between them. We had artillery

in this yard and in towards the gates, and the different detachments of

troops occupied the different buildings--men were stationed at the

windows.

By Mr. Means:

Q. One more question, and I believe I am done. What kind of discipline

were the troops under while in the round-house?

A. I considered, for militia, uncommonly good discipline. They obeyed

every order I heard given. I will say this: very much to my surprise,

from the time I left Philadelphia, there never was an officer or

soldier under me that refused to obey an order I gave him. Further than

that, I would say, their obedience to the order not to fire, under the

aggravating circumstances in the round-house and on the street the next

day, when they were fired at constantly with pistols, was one of the

most remarkable exhibitions of good discipline I ever witnessed in all

my military experience. That is a test of discipline.

Q. Do you know of any arrangement, or any effort made, to furnish the

troops with provisions at Torrens station, or at any other place, after

you left the round-house?

A. The first I knew about the provision business, was what I have said

about Colonel Norris and General Brinton talking, and then, again, in

the evening, when Major Barr overtook us, near the poor-house. He was

sent back to arrange about provisions, and we got provisions in the

night. We got some provisions at the poor-house.

Q. What was the messenger's name in the carriage with you--that rode in

the carriage with you? Did you not say there was a party rode in the

carriage, when you met General Brinton? Who was with Colonel Norris?

A. I do not know who the gentleman was that was with Major Norris. I

was not acquainted with him, and never saw him before. Do not know

anything about it.

Q. Do you know if he got out of the carriage and walked up with you?

A. Did not see him get out of the carriage. I could not say positively

that he got out of the carriage at all. He might have done so. I did

not look back to see.

By Mr. Larrabee:

Q. Did you say that the troops had orders not to fire upon the men that

were following them, firing, on Sunday morning.

A. That was in order not to bring on a conflict as long as we could

avoid it--to pay no attention to them. They were firing with pistols,

and I did not reply to them, until they commenced to fire with

rifles--a number of men.

Q. Did General Brinton give orders to that effect?

A. I do not know who the orders came from. I got orders from my brigade

commander, General Loud.

Q. That the troops were not to fire upon the mob that were following

on?

A. It was not so much on the mob following, as people on the sidewalk,

and in the doors and windows of the houses, firing with small pistols?

Q. At the time there was firing by the troops?

A. After a time, when the rioters in different places, under cover,

generally, at the windows, and behind signs, and around corners of

buildings, commenced firing with rifles, then we returned that fire. In

some cases the men standing on the sidewalk deliberately pulled out

pistols, and fired at the rear of the column, just as we got by there.

In one case I saw a man standing within four feet of a policeman on one

side of him, and a squad of policemen, about ten or twenty feet on his

other flank--saw this man, who was in citizen's dress, take a revolver

and fire into our ranks, and no reply was made to him.

Q. No effort made by the police to interfere with him?

A. No; they looked on as if it was a dog fight.

Q. Did that shot hit any of the soldiers?

A. One shot I know took effect. They fired just as the rear of the

column was getting by.

Q. At the police station?

A. It was right near a police station or an engine-house.

Q. Where the police were standing?

A. A group of them standing there. It was a municipal building. I think

it must have been a fire station from the appearance of it. I looked

back--we had just got by--and I judge, from the appearance of the

building in Philadelphia, that it was a fire station. I was told since

that it was. Those policemen were in uniform--quite a number of

them--certainly seven or eight. There might have been a dozen of them,

and no large crowd near to interfere with them in case they had chosen

to arrest the man. I heard other firing at the same time, which, I

believe, has been testified to by others as being done by policemen. I

did not actually hear a policeman fire. There was more than one man

fired--firing from the other side. I noticed this one man,

particularly.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Where did this firing come from, parties on the sidewalks or from

houses?

A. Some from sidewalks, houses, and doorways and cellars, from down

street, in our rear, men from the corners of the streets we had just

passed from behind projecting signs, in front of stores, boxes in front

of stores. Saw some of them shoot.

Q. By pistols or muskets?

A. Those that fired from the rear were firing with muskets. All that I

saw fire from doorways were pistols. Those from the windows were partly

muskets and partly pistols.

Q. Were the police drawn up in line as you passed them?

A. Just standing on the curb-stone--that would naturally put them in

line--they did not appear to be drawn up purposely.

Q. What was the conduct of the troops as they retired from the

round-house?

A. They went out in as good order as from parade--regular formation.

The only men out of place were three sharp shooters I had under my

charge in the upper story of the building to keep men away from the

cannon in the street. I was ordered to keep that gun quiet until the

troops got out of the building. I had a detachment of men there that I

held until nearly all the troops went out, and then dismissed all but

three of them to rejoin their companies, and those three men remained

out there Sunday until the last moment, and I got down opposite the

passage-way through the building, and as the last file of men marched

out of the building--the last file of the division marched out--I

signaled for them to fire and come down. I fired at the corner of the

building around which the rioters were sharp-shooting, to get at the

cannon. It chipped off the corner of the building, and we made a run

for it and got off before they made a shot at us, and the building that

it was from was blazing at the time.

Q. The round-house?

A. The round-house and this office building, smoke pouring from the

building at the time.

Q. Could you have remained in that round-house for any length of time

after the time you retired, in your opinion?

A. Ten minutes afterwards every man's clothes would have been burnt off

him if he had stayed there. As we marched around we made a sort of half

circle. We went out Twenty-fifth street afterwards, went north to Penn

street, and then east along Penn street, and as we passed Twenty-sixth,

Twenty-seventh, and Twenty-eighth opposite the buildings, a square

away, we saw the buildings, and that the fire had made great progress.

The buildings were in complete blaze. Could not have stayed there ten

minutes.

Q. Was your command supplied with ammunition to hold out against a mob?

A. We had very little ammunition then. During the night or just towards

morning, I went around and made inquiry among the men and found most of

them had from three to seven cartridges left. Here and there I found a

man who had a large number, one man as many as twenty-eight, that had

been obtained by some sharp practice--he would not tell me how. He

would chuckle over it because he was an old soldier and knew how to

take care of it.

Q. Was there a considerable amount of men that followed you as you

retired from the round-house out Penn avenue?

A. When we looked back at some of the street corners, quite a crowd

would make their appearance. They would not follow directly on the

street, they would run down side streets and come up cross streets and

come up on the corner at us. If we made a show to fire they would

disappear--they would seem to follow the streets parallel with Penn

street.

Q. Where did Colonel Norris overtake your command?

A. A short distance east of Sharpsburg, on the hill-side, in the edge

of the timber, I think, about a mile from Sharpsburg. I do not know the

exact distance.

Q. He got out of the carriage and walked along with the general. How

far did he march with your command before he stopped?

A. The head of the column had stopped when he arrived.

Q. Was General Brinton marching at the time or was he walking along?

A. General Brinton was resting at the side, on the slope of the hill

overlooking the stream. He sat down on something at the side of the

hill. Colonel Norris approached and he got up to meet him. General

Brinton had been marching at the head of the column, and halted at the

head of the column, in order to get time for the guns to pull up.

Q. Was the entire command at rest when Colonel Norris reached there?

A. The leading brigade was resting. The other was marching to overtake

the leading one. On account of difficulty in hauling the guns, quite a

gap intervened between one brigade and the other.

Q. Did Colonel Norris walk with General Brinton with his command for

any distance?

A. When the brigade with the guns overtook us the order was given for

the whole column to move forward. By that time Brinton and Norris

closed their conversation, and we walked along a short distance. We all

walked along together a little ways talking, and he decided to go back,

and the carriage turned around and Norris got in and rode back.

Q. What was the distance he marched with General Brinton?

A. I could not state the exact distance. I do not remember the exact

distance. It was not a great distance. Did not pay much attention to

that.

Q. When General Brinton and Colonel Norris met, was there any

considerable excitement in the party?

A. The only excitement was on the part of Colonel Norris. He was very

much excited, and seemed to be full of expressed emotion. We were all

very cool. We got over our excitement and cooled off. Got out of the

fire, and we were not half as much excited as outsiders.

Q. What was the language used by Colonel Norris at that time to General

Brinton?

A. Expressed great gratification at seeing him sound and

well--something to the effect that he never expected to see him again,

and glad to see him--an expression of great gratification, great

friendliness.

By Mr. Larrabee:

Q. Did General Brinton say to Colonel Norris he would be damned if he

would go back to Torrens and form a junction with Colonel Guthrie?

A. There was no language of that kind used on any one's part, no

violent language of any sort, no obstinate language, everything was

pleasant, in the friendliest manner, the whole conversation the whole

time they were together.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Were you present, within hearing distance, during the time that

Colonel Norris and General Brinton were together?

A. Yes; the whole time. They could not have said anything unless they

had whispered without my hearing, and I saw no sign of whispering. I

might add that we were all very much interested in what Colonel Norris

had to say, what was going on in Pittsburgh, what was the situation in

the city, and Colonel Norris described the events that had occurred, so

far as he had seen or heard what was going on in Pittsburgh, and we

were intensely interested in listening.

By Mr. Larrabee:

Q. What errand had Colonel Norris--what specific reasons, if any, did

he make known that he came for?

A. I did not hear him specify any particular reason for his coming. I

supposed, as a matter of course, he came out to see where we were, and

hear what was necessary to be done, the proper thing for a staff

officer to do; ascertain the whereabouts and condition of the troops.

He seemed to want to know what we wanted and what could be done for us.

Q. Did he say he had been sent there by anybody--been ordered to go out

and find General Brinton?

A. Didn't hear him say anything of the kind. I assume, as a matter of

course, that he had been sent to see what had become of us.

Q. That you presumed?

A. Yes; that is, military custom did not require any statement. The

proper duty of a staff officer, when any troops are scattered is to

hunt them up and see what is the matter with them.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Did you hear General Brinton say what he intended to do, and what

course he intended to pursue?

A. He said he wanted to get a place to give the men a chance to sleep,

and get his men something to eat. They were entirely exhausted, and

remarked that they were fit for nothing until they had that.

Q. Did Colonel Norris ask him to go back to Sharpsburg, where he could

be supplied with ammunition and rations near the railroad?

A. Didn't hear anything of that kind said. It would have aroused me if

I had. There was no ammunition at Sharpsburg, and no way to get it

there. It would have been an absurd suggestion.

Q. The reason I ask that question, there was some testimony heretofore,

that he had been asked to go back to Sharpsburg on the railroad, where

he could be supplied with rations and ammunition. I want to know

whether there was any suggestion of that kind on the part of Norris or

any one else?

A. I did not know how we could get ammunition to Sharpsburg if we could

not get it to the round-house. They might get it to us in the country

just as well. They had to wagon it wherever they took it.

Q. Did Colonel Norris propose to furnish you with ammunition or

rations--propose to furnish General Brinton with ammunition or rations

for his command, or say anything about ammunition or rations?

A. The word "proposal" hardly covers it. He said he wanted to know of

General Brinton if he wanted to go back for supplies, or whether he

wished him to stay with him. And General Brinton said he thought it was

better to go back for supplies. He particularly needed provisions right

away. They might have used the word "supplies" two or three times, but

he laid great stress on the fact that the men were nearly starved. That

was spoken of two or three times. We were in a pretty desperate

condition for something to eat; hadn't eaten anything for twenty-four

hours. I know that made an impression on my mind and on my stomach.

By Mr. Larrabee:

Q. What time was it when Colonel Norris arrived?

A. When Colonel Norris arrived it was along about ten o'clock. It might

have been from half past nine to half past eleven.

Q. You had something at the Union depot within twenty-four hours?

A. I had not. I sat down to the meal after the others had had their

sandwiches, just before two o'clock, and was called away when I was

putting the first mouthful in my mouth. I never got back. I was sorry

my politeness kept me from putting it in my pocket.

Q. Where did you get your first provisions?

A. Along in the afternoon a man overtook us in a buggy with some loaves

of bread, which General Brinton purchased, and broke up in pieces and

gave to the men. Some of the men didn't get any.

Q. Did anybody in Sharpsburg furnish your men with provisions and water

as your men passed through?

A. The men helped themselves to the water.

Q. Any of the citizens furnish provisions?

A. Some one came out that evidently recognized one of our captains, and

came along to inquire for him, and handed him a bundle of cakes and

crackers, which he scattered around among a dozen or twenty

men--perhaps it might have been twenty-five. The men that got the

crackers and cakes broke them up and passed them around. There was only

a few got those.

Q. In marching out Penn street, after you left the round-house, at what

gait did the troops march?

A. They marched rather slower than ordinary quick marching time, on

account of pulling the guns, which necessitated their moving slow.

Q. Was there any haste at any point in the line of march?

A. There was a sort of break or stampede at one point before they

reached the arsenal, where there was an unusual amount of firing. There

was a sudden fusillade of musketry and pistols out of the doors, and

out of the windows. A great many came from the second story windows at

one time, or windows having the ordinary outside blinds.

Q. Shutters?

A. Slat shutters. Most of the houses at that time became two stories

high. The shutters were bowed, and there came a volley of pistol balls

and some rifle balls, and some from the rear. More than half of all the

men that were hit during the commotion, were hit within five minutes,

in that block. The firing was so sudden and unexpected, and two men

were killed at the time, and one mortally wounded, and several others

wounded slightly, that the men instinctively stopped. That was in the

second brigade, in the rear. The others were beyond it, immediately

where this firing took place. I believe I mentioned that all the

attacks were made on the men in the rear. They would wait until we just

passed before they fired, and fired from behind, alongside of the rear

column. The first brigade continued to march on. Our brigade halted,

and the men, by common impulse, without any order, commenced to fire in

these windows, from which the smoke came. Of course, it stopped the

firing from the windows. Some of the men fired from back down the

street, and we opened the Gatling gun and fired down the street. The

moment we commenced firing with that, we could not see a living thing

down the street. Saw a dead horse, and two or three dead men, some

smashed signs, and then we succeeded, by loud talking, in getting the

men to cease firing, and just at that moment I noticed that the first

brigade, or the first regiment, was double-quicking the men in the rear

to their regiment, to close up the gap that had occurred in the

straggling marching, and that had an appearance as though they were not

marching away. The men at the head of the column were marching; in

ordinary quick time, and in marching, the men would straggle out. It is

very important, in a fight, that they should be together and touch

elbows, and they were closing up, and some men in our brigade suddenly

remarked, or raised the cry, that "the first is running away!" in the

frightened tone of voice. It had that effect, and several others took

it up and looked around, stopped firing, and saw that the first brigade

was a block away from them, and with a common impulse, there was a sort

of stampede or rush after them. The officers rushed around in front and

could not stop them, and when they overtook the first brigade, they ran

up into them in confusion. That was all the stampede there was. It was

settled in a few minutes and got into shape again.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Do you know of any orders, written or verbal, urging General Brinton

during the time he was in the round-house, or after he retired from

there, within twenty-four hours, from General Latta, as to his course

to be pursued after he left the round-house?

A. I do not know as I am a competent witness on that. I heard it second

hand.

Q. Just what you know of your own personal knowledge?

A. I didn't see the order. I was informed through my brigade commander

that the orders were to go east out Penn street, that was in reply to

my expression of opinion that we ought to go to the Union depot and get

our ammunition and supplies there. He told me General Brinton had

orders to go east out of Penn street when we left. Of course, like a

good soldier, I shut up. I supposed that was sufficient knowledge of

the order.

Q. Any orders to General Guthrie to your knowledge?

A. I did not hear of any. All that was explained to me was that the

order was to go east at Penn street when we left.

* * * * *

James H. Stewart, re-called:

By Mr. Means:

Q. Were you an officer in command of a regiment or brigade--a field

officer or commissioned officer?

A. I was not, sir.

Q. I mean a commissioned officer at that time?

A. No, sir. I was not.

Q. What position did Colonel Norris occupy?

A. I do not know, I understood on the Governor's staff. I don't know

whether he held a commission or not.

Q. Do you know whether he was commissioned or not?

A. No, sir; I did not.

Q. Do you know of any arrangement that was made through the colonel to

have the troops rationed at any place or at any time?

A. Of the first division?

Q. Of Colonel Brinton's command?

A. Yes; I know something about it. I know we used every effort--do you

want me to explain why?

Q. I want to know the whys and the wherefores.

A. Every effort was made to ration Brinton's command, whilst he was

opposite to the round-house. We used everything in our power to do

that. I myself had secured an engine from Cassatt, the vice president

of the Pennsylvania railroad, and some gentlemen communicated with the

Governor. Colonel Farr and Colonel Quay, and quite a number of us,

carried on some tubs of sandwiches, and I having learned that the fire

had taken place on Liberty street, we then telegraphed out, and found

it was west of Twenty-eighth street, consequently, we could not get the

rations, and we abandoned that. I afterwards went out myself to the

general, carried an order, both written and verbal. I then returned to

the Union Depot hotel. Every person connected with us, was very anxious

to get the general's command furnished with provisions.

Q. Then the sum and substance of it was, you didn't succeed in

furnishing them with rations?

A. We could not, it was utterly impossible.

Q. Were there any other arrangements made to furnish General Brinton's

command with rations, after they arrived at the round-house, and after

they got away from it?

A. We would have furnished him, if we had known where the general was.

Q. I ask the question, and I expect an answer plain, whether you did or

didn't?

A. Whether we had sent any rations to them?

Q. Whether you did furnish them, and whether there was an arrangement

made to get rations to them?

A. We had made arrangements--if he had turned his column back from

where he was, beyond Sharpsburg, we had made arrangements to send

rations up by the West Pennsylvania road.

Q. Where to?

A. To Sharpsburg. I supposed we might meet him there.

Q. Then you had no definite place that you expected to furnish these

troops rations at?

A. No, sir.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Does the West Pennsylvania road run through Sharpsburg?

A. Yes, sir.

By Mr. Means:

Q. Now. Mr. Stewart, in short, what arrangements did you make to

furnish them with rations at all?

A. Where do you mean?

Q. At any place after they left the round-house.

A. After they left the round-house?

Q. Yes.

A. We made no arrangements, for the very simple reason, that as I said,

we could not find out where General Brinton's command was. You will

remember, the telegraph lines were cut. We learned accidentally, that

the general was retreating, and we would have used every effort in our

power to get the command furnished with rations, and could have done

it, if he had turned the head of his column back. And in this

connection, I want to just state here, that so far as the First

division is concerned, they were a valorous set of troops, and did good

service for the county of Allegheny, used every effort that they could.

I believe, that so far as my own personal knowledge is concerned, that

General Brinton did everything that he possibly could to help along the

trouble that occurred. He was posted there in the round-house all

night, and I do not blame him, really.

Q. Do you mean just what you said: that General Brinton did all he

could to help along the trouble that occurred?

A. Oh, no.

Q. I wish you would explain this; give an explanation.

A. What I want to say is this: the general in command did everything he

possibly could to protect the citizens of Allegheny county.

Q. And suppress the riot?

A. And suppress the riot.

By Mr. Means:

Q. And the railroad property?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. I would like you to be a little more explicit--a little more

definite in regard to these rations. When you intended to transport the

rations to these troops, and how you intended to get them there, and if

you intended to get them there at all?

A. In the first place, we didn't know where the first division were

retreating to. We understood that they had left the round-house, and

were going north. We then could have made--did make--some arrangements

to send rations to them, as I said before in my testimony.

Q. What arrangements did you make--put them on cars, or take them by

wagons--how did you intend to transport them over there?

A. If he had come back south of the Allegheny, we would have sent them

out the West Pennsylvania road--if he had made a junction with Guthrie,

as we wanted.

Q. As who wanted?

A. General Latta.

Q. Did you say as you wanted?

A. I didn't say as I wanted.

Q. As the commander-in-chief wanted?

A. The Adjutant General; the commander-in-chief was not there.

Q. General Brinton, or who?

A. If General Brinton had come, and made a junction with Colonel

Guthrie, we could have fixed the rations for him--could have done so if

he had stayed in Sharpsburg.

Q. Now, in what way could General Brinton have made that connection

with Colonel Guthrie?

A. How do you mean?

Q. By what road did he or could he have made it?

A. When he left the round-house, it was as easy for him to go to

Guthrie's command as it was to march out to Sharpsburg.

Q. As you appear to know something about these arrangements, I would

like to know what arrangement was made to get General Brinton's command

any ammunition?

A. What arrangement?

Q. Yes; or if any?

A. I do not know that General Brinton's command had been exhausted of

ammunition. We could have furnished him with all the ammunition that he

wanted; as Colonel Norris told him, if he would turn back the head of

his column, and make a junction with Guthrie, we could furnish him with

both ammunition and rations.

Q. Now, do you know that Colonel Guthrie had ammunition, and plenty of

it?

A. He had enough for his troops.

Q. How do you know that he had?

A. Having been out there in the morning, before daylight, furnishing

Colonel Rodgers' command with some ammunition, I happened to know that

Colonel Guthrie had plenty of it, and then we had more of it at the

Union Depot hotel, and could have furnished the general's command with

all the ammunition that he wanted.

Q. Had you any arrangements by which you would transport that

ammunition to General Brinton's command--from the round-house, I mean?

A. After he left the round-house?

Q. From the Union depot?

A. O, yes; we could if we knew exactly where General Brinton was.

Q. Did you have any arrangements made to do that?

A. Well, we knew just exactly how we were handling our own stuff there.

Q. You did not know exactly what you were doing?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you know from the commander-in-chief that General Brinton was

short of ammunition?

A. From the commander-in chief? The commander-in-chief was not there.

The Adjutant General was there. I knew from what General Brinton had

told us on his route north of the Allegheny that he was short of

ammunition.

Q. Did General Latta know that, to your knowledge?

A. Not until we returned from seeing General Brinton.

Q. And when General Brinton had marched north, you say then you

supposed him to be retreating, and you gave up all hopes of furnishing

any provision or anything else--when General Brinton, you say, went

north, out Penn avenue--I believe it is north?

A. North-east; yes, sir.

Q. Then, after you found he crossed the Allegheny river you gave up all

hopes and quit making any efforts to furnish him with either provision

or ammunition?

A. No, sir; we did not. I believe that every effort was made to furnish

his men.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. I would like to ask Mr. Stewart in what capacity he was acting?

A. As a volunteer aid of the Adjutant General.

Q. And did what he directed you to do simply?

A. At what time?

Q. While you were acting as volunteer aid?

A. You don't want me to tell everything I know?

Q. No, sir; my question is, you did what he directed you to do?

A. Everything, of course.

Q. That was all?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You did not assume to do anything on your own responsibility?

A. No, sir.

Q. Were you a member of the National Guard at that time?

A. I was not. I had been a major on the staff of General Pearson.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Of the National Guard?

A. Of the National Guard.

Q. And you went out with Colonel Norris because you were directed to go

out there by the Adjutant General?

A. Directed to go by the Adjutant General.

Q. And all you know about ammunition or provisions is what you were

directed to do in relation to it?

A. Of course that is all.

Q. In your testimony heretofore you stated that Brinton made a remark

that he would be God damned if he would return to Pittsburgh again. Are

you certain he made that remark and used that language?

A. I am under oath, am I not?

Q. Refresh your memory and see whether he made that remark?

A. The general knew Colonel Norris better than he knew me, and of

course, was speaking to him.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Mr. Yutzy asks you whether you are certain that he made that remark?

A. I most positively assert that General Brinton made that remark.

* * * * *

Major Lewis D. Baugh, re-called:

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. State whether you were with General Brinton's command on Sunday

morning on their retreat?

A. No, sir; I was not.

Q. State what knowledge you have of the dispatches sent by General

Brinton to General Latta during the night of Saturday?

A. I cannot, without my memorandum. I was present when the dispatches

came in, several of them, two of them brought in by a scout, I think.

Q. From whom?

A. From General Brinton.

Q. To General Latta?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You were in General Latta's office?

A. I was in General Latta's office.

Q. When two of them were brought in?

A. I think one or two, I cannot recollect. I was there when the scout

came in.

Q. When the first dispatch was brought in?

A. I think so, yes, sir. I came in the room and found him there. If I

had a report here I could talk more plain.

Q. You mean the Adjutant General's report?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Can you state the nature of the dispatch?

A. If I saw the book I could state which dispatch it is.

Q. Did you see any other one than those that are published in the

Adjutant General's report?

A. I don't recollect of seeing any other. I was in General Latta's

head-quarters off and on during the evening, being cut off from my

division, and naturally went to the next head-quarters, and I was in

there during the evening, trying to get my rations out to the troops. I

was commissary of the first division, acting quarter-master at the

time, I had some ammunition there as well as rations, and I was in the

room and out of it until pretty near midnight, and then I attempted to

join General Brinton by myself, and went up street in citizen's

clothes.

Q. Did you succeed?

A. No, sir; could not get to the round-house, found that I would get

shot very likely by our own men as I was in citizens clothes, and

looked about as much like a rioter as any of the rest of them.

Q. Did General Brinton complain of being short of ammunition in any of

those dispatches?

A. I think he did, short of ammunition and short of provisions.

Q. Do you recollect what he said about it?

A. No, sir; I do not, because it is all written down, and I had the

report.

Q. Are all the dispatches that you read or saw, as coming from General

Brinton that night, published in the Adjutant General's report?

A. I think they are. There may be some more that I did not see. I read

it over, and found it pretty near as I knew. I tried my best to get

provisions to him, and I delivered ammunition--four boxes--to somebody,

to take out to some other station to some other troops.

Q. Torrens station?

A. Torrens station, I think it was. I recollect going down in the

cellar of the hotel and getting them out; it was pretty hard work for

some one or two people, besides myself, to lift them up. The elevator

was stopped.

Q. You were the commissary of General Brinton's staff?

A. Yes, sir; I am regular commissary of the First division--General

Brinton's division.

Q. And as such were in consultation with the general during the night?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you know of any supplies being provided to General Brinton's

command during the night, or at Torrens station?

A. No, sir; not that I know of. There were some supplies I sent down

there, but whether they reached or not I do not know; I don't think

they did. Some started out there. The supplies went out in a wagon; I

did not send those out--out to the round-house. When General Brinton

started, he directed me to remain there and make arrangements to ration

the troops in the evening and following morning. I made the

arrangements, and after getting through with that arrangement I went on

the track, and found there had been a fight.

Q. You say you were not with General Brinton when Colonel Norris

reached him?

A. No, sir.

Q. When did you see General Brinton after that?

A. I think about three o'clock in the afternoon, as near as I can

recollect, without having any watch on me.

Q. Of Sunday?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did General Brinton say anything about having seen Colonel Norris?

A. I do not know that he did--I do not recollect it.

Q. Did he tell you anything about Colonel Norris having been to see

him?

A. I don't think he did. As soon as I found they had left the

round-house, I heard they had gone to the arsenal. I heard Captain

Breck say to somebody that they had gone to the arsenal. I drove there,

and found they were not there, and somebody said they had gone to the

right. I followed out, and crossed the railroad track, and came to the

hospital, and down to the hotel again. I found they had gone to

Sharpsburg. I hired another carriage, and drove out to Sharpsburg; and

when I got to Sharpsburg, I was bothered which road to take, and I

daresn't ask anybody. I found the mark of the shoes that the column had

moved in the road, and I followed up that road some distance.

Q. General Brinton did not mention the fact of Colonel Norris having

met him that day?

A. I don't recollect of it.

Q. Did he say anything about having received any orders from General

Latta?

A. No, sir; he asked me for orders as soon as I got there. I told him I

had none. Then I went back to General Latta for the orders.

Q. Why did you go back?

A. He wanted orders.

Q. Did General Brinton send you back for orders?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where did you go?

A. Drove down the river road to the bridge, about opposite to the

Monongahela House; crossed there, and went to the Monongahela House,

and went to General Latta's room, and found him, and delivered a note

to General Latta.

Q. From whom?

A. General Brinton.

Q. What did General Latta say in reply?

A. Asked where General Brinton was, and I told him back on the hills

about the poor-house, as near as I could tell, being a stranger there,

then he gave me written orders to give to General Brinton.

Q. When did you tell this to General Brinton?

A. When he gave me the written orders, I asked him about provisions,

and he says, I was commissary and it was my business to feed them. Says

I, "Yes, but it is your business to give me some stuff." They had not

time, and they left me there. Major Lazarus, one of the special

officers, was in the room all the time, and there was a captain of the

first regiment. I took them down with me, and turned around to Lazarus,

and says I, "You read these orders. In case I do not reach General

Brinton, or you see him first, give him these orders." Then there was

two of us, in case one got picked up then the other would deliver the

orders. When I crossed the river at the West Pennsylvania depot, he

drove down and delivered the orders. As soon as I got out in the

morning, I overhauled General Brinton and gave him the written order.

Q. Do you know what those orders were?

A. If I had a report here, I could tell you, sir.

Q. They are published in the Adjutant General's report?

A. Yes, sir. The substance was to proceed to Altoona.

Q. What is the date of the order--can you give that?

A. Sunday night, about nine o'clock, when I received it.

Q. You may give the substance of the order, as near as you can

recollect?

A. To proceed to Altoona, and Mr. Creighton would furnish

transportation. When I went back General Latta gave me orders that

General Brinton should have it to-night. I went out, and jumped in a

wagon, and started over.

Q. While you were at the Monongahela house, did General Latta say

anything about General Brinton having disobeyed his orders?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did he say anything to you about having sent orders to General

Brinton?

A. Not to me. Didn't hear him say a word about it.

Q. Did he mention having sent Colonel Norris or Captain Aull with

orders?

A. No, sir; didn't say a word to me about it. I took General Brinton a

note in, and handed it to him, and he then dictated an order. The order

was written out, and handed to me, and delivered to General Brinton.

Q. Do you know whether Colonel Norris had returned?

A. I don't know anything about him.

Doctor J. E. Mears, re-called:

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. State whether you were at the Union depot on Saturday morning, when

Colonel Norris was sent by General Latta and General Brinton.

A. I was, sir.

Q. You may state what conversation took place between General Latta and

Colonel Norris?

A. I don't know that I can state positively the conversation. I came to

the hotel about eight o'clock on Sunday morning, went to General

Latta's room, and reported that the troops had left the round-house,

having learned that fact at the hospital, where I had spent a portion

of the night, and said to him that I proposed to purchase some medical

stores, and join him at once, and asked him where I should go to join

him, and he told me to go to the arsenal. At that time, Colonel Norris

was making preparations to join General Brinton also. What their

conversation was, I cannot state positively, or what the nature of the

instructions given to him were. I knew that he was going to see General

Brinton, and, at the time, my impression was that he was going to see

him in a friendly way. I knew that he was not officially connected with

the National Guard, and the impression I had arrived at, at that time,

was, he was simply going out to see him in behalf of General Latta, as

a friend of General Brinton, to see what had happened and what

condition they were in, but I didn't understand, at the time, that he

was going officially to him.

Q. Was Captain Aull there, at the time?

A. That I cannot state positively. I went into the dining-room of the

hotel, and had a conversation with Captain Breck. That I remember, but

I don't remember of meeting Captain Aull, at the time.

Q. Did you see the major, Saturday?

A. I didn't, sir. I may have seen him not to know him.

Q. Did you see Colonel Norris when he started in the carriage?

A. I didn't; because Colonel Norris started before I did. He took a

hack, and I was going to a drug store to get some medical stores, and

also going to a livery stable to get a conveyance, and Colonel Norris

left the hotel before I had left Pittsburgh. As I said in my testimony

before, I met once, after he had seen General Brinton.

Q. State what conversation you had with him?

A. I took with me, at the suggestion of Captain Breck, a man who had

acted as scout during the night, a member of Murphy's cavalry, I

believe. He went with me on account of my being a stranger in

Pittsburgh, and showed me the way to the arsenal. When we reached the

arsenal and found the troops were not there, and when I was denied

admittance by the guard at the gate, or refused to be permitted to go

near the gate or have conversation with him, I drove on, and the crowd

knew nothing at all about the country beyond that point, so that the

way was ascertained by asking persons, of course very cautiously, so as

not to let them know what our object was. I followed the command by

watching the road and seeing the foot-marks across the bridge going

through Sharpsburg, and got through Sharpsburg and passed into the

country, turned to the left, and I should think, not more than a

quarter of a mile from the point at which I met Colonel Norris

returning to the city. He was in a carriage with another person whom I

did not know, and to whom I didn't pay particular attention. I got out

of the buggy and halted them. They didn't seem to be very desirous to

be halted, because it was not desirable that it should be known who

they were in that portion of the country. I asked the colonel where the

command was, and he told me it was about a quarter of a mile beyond, on

the hill. That was the only conversation I had with Colonel Norris. As

I said before, he wasn't desirous of stopping very long to give me any

information. His words and manner was such as indicated that it was not

desirable that we should be seen conversing together, or holding any

communication which would indicate that they were in any way associated

or connected with the troops, as there were persons along the road that

had followed up the command. I joined the troops, certainly no more

than a quarter of a mile beyond. I found them resting in good order.

Q. When you joined the troops and met General Brinton, did he say

anything about having received any orders from Colonel Norris?

A. No, sir; he didn't.

Q. Did he say what he intended to do?

A. I asked him the question, and he replied that he was going to the

poor-house to get a place to rest his command, and also to get food,

and I asked him whether he knew where the poor-house was, and what his

information was, and he said that a citizen or some person at

Sharpsburg had directed him, and told him to go there, that he could

get food there, and get an opportunity to cook his rations.

Q. Did Colonel Norris say anything to you as surgeon of the division

about having the column halted at any point?

A. No, sir; he didn't.

Q. To dress any wounds?

A. No, sir; not a word. It was as much as I could do to get him to halt

them enough to ask him what I regarded as a very important question,

where the command was, that I should join him.

Q. Did he say anything about what his business had been to the command?

A. Not a word; no, sir.

Q. Was there anybody in the carriage with him?

A. There was a person, sir, whom I didn't know. They were sitting--both

of them--back in the corner of the carriage very closely.

Q. Would you recognize the person now?

A. No, sir. I didn't see anybody in the room whom I should recognize as

being with Colonel Norris. I didn't closely examine the person. My

business was with Colonel Norris, because I knew him, and desired

simply to get the information from him.

Q. Did you know Colonel Norris?

A. I knew him by sight, having met him with the Governor's staff on one

or two occasions. I had seen him at the hotel before.

At this point the committee adjourned, to meet to-morrow morning, at

Reading, Pennsylvania.

* * * * *

READING, _April 19, 1878_.

The committee met at the Mansion house, at eleven o'clock, A.M. Mr.

Lindsey in the chair. All members present except Messrs. Reyburn,

Larrabee, and Yutzy.

George S. Goodhart, _affirmed_:

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. State whether or not you were coroner in July last, at the time of

the difficulties here among the railroad employés?

A. I was coroner; yes, sir?

Q. Still holding that position?

A. Still hold that position. I was elected at the same time that Samuel

J. Tilden was elected--elected, I say, that is my opinion.

Q. Can you state what day the first difficulty among the railroad

employés broke out here, or commenced?

A. No; I cannot. I cannot state the day. I presume it was within a week

or somewheres about the 16th--15th or 16th of July. I would date it

about a week anterior to the time these men were killed, which was on

the 23d, Monday. The excitement ran very high throughout the day of

Sunday.

Q. Will you please give us a history of how it first started, and then

trace the extent of the difficulty and troubles along up until you come

to the date of the conflict between the strikers and the militia?

A. Well, I don't know that I can answer that question with much

accuracy. There had evidently been for some time before considerable

contending between these engineers who were suspended and the Reading

Railroad Company. It is that, I presume, that led to the difficulty.

Q. What time were the engineers suspended by the railroad company?

A. That is more than I can say.

Q. Was it some time prior to this difficulty--outbreak?

A. Yes; certainly it would be prior to this.

Q. How many of them had been suspended?

A. That I cannot say--a large majority of them, I think, that were on

the road were suspended.

Q. Were there a large number of them suspended, and were without employ

in and about the city of Reading?

A. It was generally so supposed.

Q. And the first dissatisfaction was among that class of men, was it?

A. Yes; and those who sympathized with them. There were differences of

opinion among the citizens here. Many sympathized with the railroad

company, and many, also, with these employés, and the feeling during

the day of Sunday was very much against the Reading Railroad Company.

Q. That was Sunday, the 22d?

A. Yes; the 22d, and on Monday the general impression was here, with

those that I had interviews with, that property and shops would be set

fire to that night.

Q. The railroad shops?

A. Yes; during the day of Sunday, there was a good deal of excitement

on the street here, on Penn street, and a great many people congregated

out about the corner of Sixth and Penn and Seventh and Penn.

Q. What class of people generally gathered?

A. They were mostly workingmen, men thrown out of employment.

Q. Men from the manufacturing establishments?

A. Manufacturing, yes, sir; mechanics and laboring classes,

principally.

Q. How large a number assembled?

A. I presume I saw as many as fifty to seventy-five, probably one

hundred at times during the day on Sunday.

Q. What day was the railroad bridge across the Schuylkill burned?

A. It was burned that same night.

Q. Sunday night?

A. Yes; sometime during the night, about midnight, I think.

Q. This assembly of men on Sunday, was it composed of railroad

men--were they actually engaged in running trains then--or was it men

who had been discharged?

A. I am not prepared to answer that question, because I know very few

of the engineers on the road. I do not know that I can point out a

single man of them.

Q. Did the Reading railroad continue to run their trains?

A. They did on Sunday, I think, and a part of the day on Monday. On

Monday, towards evening, some of the trains were stopped here in the

city by some parties. It seems some of them were boys. Young men got on

to the trains, on to the locomotive. At one time, I understood a

boy--however, I don't know that I can say that, either, it was so

stated by some of the witnesses, that a certain boy got on to a

locomotive, and moved it back and forth, just about as he would a

little wagon--made a plaything out of it.

Q. Drove the engineer from his engine?

A. Yes; they got off some way.

Q. You did not see them?

A. No; I did not see them. In fact I did not go on Seventh street at

all on that day. I don't think I was on Seventh street on the Monday.

Q. Did the crowd remain together during the night of Sunday night, or

did it disperse during the evening?

A. That is more than I can say, but I should suppose that it did not

disperse very early--I think it highly probable that they kept up

looking round for news.

Q. What street were they on on Sunday?

A. Principally, Penn street--corner Sixth and Penn streets.

Q. What was the character of the crowd, as being demonstrative?

A. Well, they were anxiously looking for news from other quarters, from

Pittsburgh and Baltimore, where they had been on the strike, and, as a

matter of course, they would congregate in front of the telegraph

offices. Well, the news came pretty direct to the _Eagle_ office,

and they looked there to the bulletin boards for exciting news, and

they came around for that purpose, and there was some of them, no

doubt, were hard cases, and ready for any emergency.

Q. Were they noisy and boisterous?

A. I cannot say that they were.

Q. Did you have any conversation with any of them?

A. No; I did not.

Q. What seemed to be their troubles and grievances. Did they make them

manifest in any way?

A. Well, the main grievance among them, that I could learn, was the

depressed state of things, being out of employment, not able to get

any-anything to do, and want generally.

Q. Who did they seem to blame for that state of things?

A. There was a good deal of censure placed upon the Reading Railroad

Company, more than perhaps any other.

Q. On Monday morning was that crowd still in the streets?

A. Yes; there were some there on Monday morning.

Q. How large a crowd?

A. Probably not so many. I do not think there were so many there that

morning as there were on Sunday evening and during the day on Sunday.

Q. Had the news of the burning of the bridge reached you then?

A. Well, not until during the night. I heard the fire alarm bell, but I

did not get up. I did not go out at all.

Q. The fire alarm was sounded, was it?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Were there any efforts made to extinguish the fire by the fire

companies or civil authorities of the city?

A. Well; yes, sir. They went out, as was stated, before the

inquisition--before the inquest; the firemen went out, Chief Boyer was

there and a number of others, and it appears they could not do anything

towards arresting the fire in any way. Some of the cars, I think, were

set on fire, some box cars they had out there. Afterwards, it appears,

that the report came that the bridge was on fire--that was stated

before the inquest, that the mob was so great that they threatened the

engineer, the chief of police, and other parties there that intended to

suppress the flames--to put down the excitement.

Q. The mob would not permit the firemen to work?

A. Would not permit them to work--to put any water on the fire at all.

Q. Did they use any violence towards the firemen?

A. Not that I could learn.

Q. Did they make any efforts?

A. Not any that I know of.

Q. Do you know whether the police of the city were there--any of them

to protect the firemen?

A. The chief of police was there, and no doubt he had a number of the

police with him.

Q. Did you see the crowd during the day? How large a crowd was there

during the day on Monday?

A. I suppose it would vary, likely, from one hundred to one hundred and

fifty.

Q. Where were they mostly during the day?

A. Between the Keystone house, and the _Eagle_ office.

Q. They still continued to gather around the bulletin boards?

A. Yes; around the bulletin boards. Some of them would come over,

occasionally, to look at the _Times'_ office, but most of the news came

through the _Eagle_ office, and the consequence was, the most of the

crowd were in front of the _Eagle_ office, there and at the Keystone

house.

Q. How was it at the railroad depot, and about the railroad offices?

A. I don't know, for I didn't go there at all.

Q. Do you know how large a crowd was there?

A. No.

Q. Do you know whether there was any efforts made by the civil

authorities of the city to disperse the crowd during the day?

A. Well, there was an effort made, at least it so appeared in the

inquisition, that parties went to the sheriff, with a view of getting

him to render some assistance. One party, a man by the name of Miller,

proffered to suppress the mob with fifty men. Said that if the sheriff

would allow him to, that he thought he could procure that number of

men. This was sometime during the day of Monday that this statement was

made. The proffer was made to the sheriff.

Q. Made by Mr. Miller himself?

A. By Mr. Miller, in company with Mr. Wood.

Q. What reply did the sheriff make to that offer?

A. I don't know the exact words--I have all that testimony down.

Q. Give us the substance of it--of his reply?

A. He did not feel disposed to do anything. They said they would get

arms and ammunition, and everything that was necessary, to put it down,

if he would give his consent, which, it seems, he declined to do; and

when they said they would get the arms or guns, he said the rioters

have guns, too; and he also said to them that he would not go to do

anything by way of suppressing it, for fear that he would be shot the

same as the sheriff was at Pittsburgh.

Q. You had received news, then, that the sheriff of Allegheny county

was shot, had you here?

A. Yes; at that time.

Q. Which afterwards proved incorrect. Was that the only reason that he

gave for not accepting the proposition of Mr. Miller?

A. I am inclined to think that was the only plausible reason he gave.

He didn't believe in going out and being a target to fire at.

Q. Did he make any effort to arrest the parties who were in the

disturbance during Monday?

A. None that I can learn.

Q. Did he make any effort at any time?

A. I think not.

Q. Did he call for any posse to assist you in any way?

A. He swore in the next day quite a number of deputy sheriffs, but on

Monday I don't think he called on any. He issued his proclamation and

called and put it up, I think, in the evening, about five or six

o'clock.

Q. On Monday?

A. On Monday.

Q. Now, can you give us the substance of the proclamation?

A. No; I cannot. I didn't see it.

Q. Didn't see it?

A. No.

Q. Was there any call made for the militia to come out, by the sheriff,

to preserve the peace?

A. No.

Q. Do you know how the militia happened to come here?

A. Well, it was said afterwards that they came here by the order of

General Bolton.

Q. Monday night--go on and describe the situation of affairs, if you

will--where the crowd was, and what took place on Monday night?

A. The main crowd was up at the corner of Seventh and Penn, and where

there are always quite a number of men congregated, particularly at

that hour, shortly before dusk, and about that time. There had been

large crowds there for some weeks or so, who frequently congregated

there, and on that night, as a matter of course, it would be expected

there would be more, in consequence of the transactions that took place

during the day. People went there to see the excitement, and so on, and

it was with a great deal of difficulty, as I understood from the

testimony of Chief Cullen, that they could keep the pass-way clear, to

allow people to pass up and down the street. I think, if I mistake not,

Mr. Cullen had nearly all his force there. He was chief of police, and

once or twice, I think, he stated he got the pass-way cleared. It was

soon blocked up again. Just about dusk, or a little after, it appears

that General Reeder arrived with some men at the outer depot. Mr.

Paxton, in communication with him, told him where the rioters were, and

where one of the cars were that they wished to release from the mob.

That was at the commencement of the cut there. The general ordered his

men right there to release that car, and I suppose, passing through the

cut. He concluded to force his men right through. I don't know what

acquaintance he had with the surroundings of the cut, but it strikes me

very forcibly, even now, and has all along, that if he had sent a dozen

men on either side of that cut, and his main body of men through the

cut, that there would hardly have been a drop of blood shed. As these

troops moved up the cut, they were met with volleys of stones and

missiles, pistol-shooting, &c., from above either side, as they were

passing along; and, indeed, I cannot see how they got through there and

escaped with so little injury as they did. It looks to me almost a

miracle. Have you observed the cut--have you been up there?

Q. Only in passing through it.

A. The testimony came in that they would throw stones large

enough--well, too large for one man to handle--take two men--at one

time two men were seen to get hold of a large stone, and push it right

over, apparently on to them. They were treated in that way, until they

got to the lower end of the cut, and they marched up the tracks on

either side, I think, principally, on the west side. When they got

about two thirds of the way through the cut, they fired forward,

killing a number of men right at the corner of Penn and Seventh. One

man was killed about two squares--better than two squares--below. He

was on his way up town, somewhere. A man by the name of Trace, I

believe.

Q. A citizen of the city?

A. Yes, sir; a citizen. Two or three men were killed on the southeast

corner or near the southeast corner of the street, near the gutter. One

or two of them were on the sidewalk. I think it very remarkable,

indeed, that these men would come through there, and when they met with

these missiles on either side of them, that they would fire forward,

and being attacked as they were, it would appear as though they would

fire in almost any direction for relief, and get out as speedily as

possible.

Q. After they passed through the cut, did they encounter the mob at the

end of the cut?

A. Some of them. Those that were throwing these missiles, on either

side, I dare say, didn't organize in front of them; but there was some

of the parties--some of the same mob--there.

Q. Was there any firing there, after they had passed through?

A. No; not after they had passed through.

Q. What street did they come out on, in passing through the cut?

A. Out on Penn street, and then down Penn.

Q. There was no firing, as they passed through the cut?

A. No; not after they had got on to Penn, west of Seventh.

Q. Did the troops accomplish what they were sent to--started to

accomplish--gaining possession of the car?

A. Yes; they did that.

Q. How long did the troops remain in the city, then?

A. Well, during the night, I think. I think they left the next morning.

Q. Do you know where they went to from there?

A. No; I don't; but I learned that they had gone back to Allentown or

Easton.

Q. Were any troops left at Reading, at all?

A. Yes; there was some left at the outer depot.

Q. To guard railroad property?

A. To guard the property of the railroad company.

Q. Was there any disturbance occurred after that Monday night?

A. None, that I could learn.

Q. Was the mob dispersed by the firing that took place?

A. Effectually.

Q. Did they ever rally, or come together again?

A. No; no rallying there.

Q. I wish you would give us the number of killed--the number that was

actually killed--so far as you can?

A. There were ten killed--then another one subsequently died, about six

or eight weeks, I think, afterwards--Corbett--from the wounds received

at the same time.

Q. Making eleven in all?

A. Making eleven altogether.

Q. Were these all citizens, or a portion of them soldiers?

A. They were all citizens--no soldiers.

Q. Were any of them actually engaged, or were they citizens who had

congregated there out of curiosity?

A. The larger part of them were there out of curiosity. Two of those

that were killed were said to have had something to do with this

matter, and were not innocent. The others--that is, taking it for

granted that they were innocent, by being there, which the law, I

believe, doesn't grant, either--may be said to have been innocent.

Trace was, perhaps, the least censurable of any of them, for he was far

away from the scene where this was transacted.

Q. I understand you to say this: of the killed there were only two who

were actually engaged in the riots?

A. I would say, whose record was not altogether clear--free from

censure.

Q. Now, how many persons were wounded, so far as you could ascertain?

A. That I cannot ascertain; but I presume there were as many as six or

eight more that were wounded--probably more.

Q. Do you know how many of the soldiers were wounded?

A. No; I didn't learn, but I understand--I think that there were but

two or three that were in any ways seriously hurt--none mortally.

Q. Now you may state what efforts were made by the sheriff on

Tuesday--Monday night and Tuesday to preserve the peace?

A. The only effort that he made then that I know of was that he sent

notice to quite a number of the citizens to call at his office and be

sworn in as deputy sheriffs. What instructions they received from him I

don't know.

Q. Do you know how many offered themselves or responded to his notice?

A. I don't know, but I understood there was some five or six hundred

citizens that were sworn in by him or his deputy.

Q. What efforts did the mayor make, if any, to preserve the peace

during the entire disturbance?

A. The mayor was not here at the time, but returned the night, I think,

shortly before these troops left. He afterwards went out to the depot

and was in communication with General Reeder, if I mistake not. I don't

think that anything further was done to suppress the mob, for

everything was quiet then.

Q. The chief of police was on the ground was he?

A. He was on the ground, and I think manfully did his duty.

Q. How many police were on duty at the time in the city?

A. I suppose there were about twenty-five or thirty, I forget the

number.

Q. Do you know what authority the mayor has in case of riot and

disturbances, given by the charter of the city or the laws relating to

the city?

A. I have never read them. I have never read the charter of the city;

but my own judgment would tell me that he had power of suppressing--the

same power of suppressing a riot that a sheriff would have.

Q. Was that matter discussed, or taken into consideration by the

citizens at the time? Did you hear any expression by legal gentlemen as

to what the power of the mayor was?

A. I cannot say that I did; but the matter was discussed pretty freely

among citizens, and some seemed to think that the mayor ought to have

suppressed the riot. I presume he would if he had been here.

Q. Did he arrive here before the firing took place in the cut?

A. No.

Q. Not until after?

A. Not until afterwards.

Q. Did the chief of police make any arrests, to your knowledge, prior

to the conflict between the troops and the mob?

A. No; they made no arrests so far as I could learn. It seems they were

under the impression that they were almost entirely powerless with the

meager number they had to arrest them.

Q. They didn't feel strong enough to cope with the mob without greater

assistance?

A. No, sir.

Q. Were any arrests made that afternoon?

A. Yes; a great many arrests.

Q. By what authority--by whom?

A. Well, by the chief of police--they made the most of the arrests.

Q. Were any arrests made by the sheriff?

A. I think not. I don't know of any.

Q. The arrests then were mostly made by the chief of police on warrants

issued by the mayor?

A. I think they were issued by the mayor.

Q. What was done with those persons who were arrested?

A. Some of them were taken up to jail. Others were released on bail.

Q. How many have been tried?

A. I suppose there were between forty and fifty that were tried--they

were to have been tried. Whether they have all been or not, I don't

know.

Q. How long is this cut?

A. Well, it is nearly two squares.

Q. How soon after the soldiers were in did they begin to attack them?

A. Within about probably fifteen or twenty minutes.

Q. Did they continue to fire on them then until they got down on to

Penn street, where the cut runs down level?

A. No, not quite. I don't think there were any stones thrown after they

had passed Court street, within just half a square from Penn.

Q. The firing didn't commence until they got on to the cut?

A. No; it was before the firing on the soldiers you mean?

Q. Yes, sir?

A. It was not, I think, until after they passed Court street--about

that.

Q. It was still in the cut?

A. Still in the cut.

Q. Then they got out of the cut on to level ground, and then it was

that the firing was done, and when the mob was dispersed.

A. Yes; there was firing done there, and at Penn street. They couldn't

fire up and down Penn street without being very close to it.

Q. And this stone that took two men to throw down--did that hit

anybody?

A. That is more than I know; not directly, evidently, or it would have

killed them.

By Mr. Means:

Q. Was the sympathy of the people of the city of Reading with the

strikers, the discharged employés of the Reading railroad?

A. Well, there was sympathy on both sides, evidently; and during the

day, on Monday, I am inclined to think, quite a number of the people

sympathized with the strikers, rather than with the railroad company.

Q. You say on both sides. Now, I would like to know what you mean by

both sides?

A. I mean the Reading Railroad Company and the dismissed engineers of

the road.

Q. Then, in your opinion, the sympathy of the people of Reading was

with the employés of the Reading railroad in striking and destruction

of property?

A. No; I couldn't say that.

Q. My question was simply this: that I wanted to know if the citizens

of the city of Reading were in sympathy with the strikers, or the

discharged employés of the Reading road?

A. I should say no; although they had a good many to sympathize with

them here in the city.

Q. Well, then, Mr. Goodhart, were they simply discharged employés of

the Reading road that participated in this destruction of property?

A. That question I cannot answer, because, as I stated before, I don't

know any of the engineers of the road now.

Q. Did there appear to be any tramps or any strangers connected with

this party who were with the engineers or employés of the Reading road?

A. So far as I know they were all strangers to me, and I have very

little hesitation in saying, that a good many of them were strangers,

coming here from a distance.

Q. From a distance and from other sections of the country?

A. Yes, sir. I think a number of them were strangers, not citizens of

the place, nor had they been in the employ of the Reading Railroad

Company.

Q. To your knowledge, do you know whether or not, the mayor of the

city of Reading ordered out his police to suppress these rioters?

A. Not to my knowledge.

Q. When the mayor was not here, was there any person in authority?

A. The chief of police. Chief Cullen, he has stated, took his men up to

the corner of Seventh and Penn that evening, and I presume did his

utmost to clear the pass-way there, and suppress the mob. What effect

it would have had upon them had they arrested two or three or half a

dozen of these men I am not prepared to say, it might, possibly, have

dispersed the mob.

Q. Well, then, Mr. Goodhart, in your opinion, what amount of men would

it have taken to suppress this mob and restore order and peace?

A. I should think that one hundred and fifty or two hundred men would

have done it, properly armed.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. What other property was destroyed beside the destruction of the

bridge?

A. There was a few houses that were burned.

Q. Any freight in them?

A. I think there was some, and then there was some property destroyed

right on the road here in the city.

Q. Private property?

A. No; that was cars loaded, and there was one car filled with tobacco,

that was broken into and a great deal of it being carried away.

Q. Was there any property beside railroad property destroyed?

A. No, I think not; not that I know of.

Q. What day was the other property destroyed--before or after the

destruction of the bridge?

A. That was afterwards.

Q. The bridge then, I understand, was the first thing?

A. No. These cars, at this side of the bridge, were the first, I

understood, that were burnt, afterwards the bridge, and then, on

Monday--this was on Saturday night--and on the Monday, there was some

property destroyed on Seventh street; coal trains were arrested, and

the coal was dumped down right on the track, at different places. The

watchman's house was turned upside down.

Q. Now, I understand you to say that the citizens, some of them,

sympathized with the railroad employés who had been discharged, and

some sympathized with the railroad company? That is the way you put it,

I believe?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Well, now, was there any sympathy manifested by the citizens of

Reading for those strikers or employés after they began to destroy

property--or, in other words, in sympathy with the destruction of

property?

A. None whatever, that I could learn.

By Mr. Means:

Q. There was no disposition on the part of the rioters, Mr. Goodhart,

if I understand you, to destroy any property except that which belonged

to the Reading railroad?

A. Yes; just so.

Q. Not outside of it?

A. Not outside of it.

Q. Where did you get your information in regard to Mr. Mullin having

proffered his services to the sheriff?

A. Got it from his own testimony.

Q. Before you at the coroner's inquest?

A. Before me; yes, sir, and through Mr. Wootten, also. He testified to

the same thing.

* * * * *

E. F. Evans, _sworn_:

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. You were mayor of the city of Reading during the past summer?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You may tell us, if you please, where you were when the difficulties

in July occurred?

A. On the Friday morning preceding the riot in this city, which

occurred on the Monday, or rather the burning of the bridge, took place

on Sunday night. What was known as the riot, followed on Monday night,

and the firing of the troops, and so forth. I left this city for four

or five days, and went down to Ocean Grove, following the example of

the Executive of the State, the mayor of Philadelphia, and the mayor of

Scranton, to spend a few days there, intending to return the following

week, and at that time I did not dream or apprehend of any danger here

with a strike or anything of that kind. On the following Monday

morning, at the Grove, I received a telegram about half past ten or

eleven o'clock, from the chief of police of this city, that a number of

cars were on fire. At that time it said nothing of the bridge, in fact

that had not been fired, I believe, at that time. I picked up my

things, and left in the first train, which was shortly after twelve

o'clock. After reaching Allentown that night, at probably seven

o'clock, I was informed that the train had been taken off the East Penn

road, and I could not reach home. I then telegraphed to Mr. Wootten. I

stated my position in the telegram that I could not get home. He then

ordered a train to bring me over--a special car and engine was placed

at my disposal--and we started out and ran here, probably at half past

ten or eleven o'clock. That was on Monday evening--on, I believe, the

23d, if I mistake not; at any rate, it was Monday evening.

Q. Monday evening was the 23d?

A. I reached this city after the firing had taken place, and these men

had been wounded. I came in from the depot and came down to my office,

issued a proclamation requesting our citizens to uphold the authorities

of the city. Had it published that night, or rather in the morning

paper. I then went up to the depot and remained there until two or

three o'clock in the morning, requesting during that time that if there

was any trouble, the military being out there, that they should take

charge, my police officers then, five or six of them being wounded, and

they had been on duty Sunday night, and all day Monday and Monday

night. On the following day, then--I think it was the following day--I

swore in probably from one hundred and twenty-five to one hundred and

fifty men, furnishing them with maces, to go on duty if any further

danger was apprehended. There was but little occurred after Monday

night. I believe the tracks were torn up in some places on Seventh

street, but not to any extent. Didn't amount to anything, and that was

about the closing of what I--we did everything we could after I

returned home--the city authorities--to suppress any further violence

or outbreak.

Q. And succeeded in preserving the peace?

A. After that there was nothing occurred.

Q. Did the citizens respond heartily to your call?

A. As a general thing, as I have stated, probably one hundred and

twenty-five or one hundred and fifty were sworn in, and they were

willing to do duty when called upon.

Q. Was there any question about your authority to call out a posse of

citizens?

A. It was voluntary. It was supposed, that the sheriff, having

unlimited power, should have acted, whether in my absence or not,

particularly in my being absent, and should have called on parties up

there. I do not know when he reached here. There was a train or engine

sent for him to bring him back to the city. He resides somewhere below

the city. Of course, hearsay evidence does not amount to anything, but

they said he didn't act as promptly as he should have done. That is

what I heard after I reached home. When I reached home on Monday

evening, I learned he had issued a proclamation sometime that evening.

Q. Everything was quiet on Friday, as I understand you, when you left?

A. I didn't apprehend any danger at all. There was nothing spoken of

riot or any outbreak, or anything of the kind--didn't dream of such a

thing.

Q. Was there any larger number of idle men, discharged men, in the city

at that time than usual?

A. Not that I know of. I passed around portions of the city, the

greater part of it, and I found nothing that would be necessary to call

into order the police officers after I returned home.

Q. How large a police force had you at the time?

A. That I cannot exactly tell. At that time it was reduced, either

before or after that, I think, however, before that--amounting to some

twenty-six or twenty-nine men.

Q. Did you make any arrests after?

A. There were quite a number of arrests made. I think in all to be

probably fifty--forty or fifty, or along there.

Q. Did you learn what the cause of the outbreak was?

A. Only from hearsay.

Q. What did the men themselves assign? What did they give as their

reasons?

A. I didn't converse with any of the men on the subject.

Q. Did you form any opinion of yourself?

A. In reference to the outbreak?

Q. In reference to the cause of the outbreak.

A. I didn't. Nothing more, than I presume it was stimulated by the

action taken in other portions of the country. There was then an

outbreak, I believe, in some portions of Maryland, if I mistake not,

near Baltimore, and perhaps in Pittsburgh, or near there.

By Senator Torbert:

Q. The bridge was burned down before you returned?

A. Yes, sir; I believe Stokley left the same day I did, and also the

Scranton man.

At this point, the committee adjourned till half-past one o'clock, this

afternoon.