PITTSBURGH, _Friday, February 22, 1878_.
The committee met, pursuant to adjournment, at ten o'clock. Mr. Lindsey
in the chair. All members present.
* * * * *
Mayor W. C. McCarthy, _affirmed_:
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Where is your residence?
A. My residence is 95, Robert street, Eleventh ward.
Q. What official position did you hold in this city last July?
A. I was mayor of the city.
Q. How long had you occupied that position?
A. Since the 1st day of February, 1875--the last time--I occupied it
before.
Q. When did you first learn of any disturbance at the Pennsylvania
railroad?
A. On Thursday, the 19th of July, in the forenoon.
Q. About what time?
A. That I am not able to say, but I suppose it was in the early
forenoon.
Q. How did you learn of the fact?
A. Mr. Watt came to me in the mayor's office, asking me if I could
furnish him with ten men. I told him no. By and by--before I come to
that, I will give you the police force and the disposition of it. Every
person connected with the police force consisted entirely of one
hundred and twenty, having a supervision over twenty-seven square
miles. Five of them were simply lamp watchmen, leaving one hundred and
fifteen policemen. They were divided as follows: One captain, one
chief, two turn-keys at the central station, eight station-house
keepers, eight front office men. These eight men were all the men we
had in daylight, all told, the rest were put on night duty. One night
watchman at the city hall, two roundsmen. These roundsmen are men who
perambulate the whole city, for the purpose of having an eye to the
different police, that they were attending to their duty, and we had
one corner man--a man stationed at the corner of Fifth avenue and
Smithfield street--and nine lieutenants, and eighty-two patrolmen.
These eighty-two patrolmen are men whose metes and bounds were set out
to travel. We had one hundred and fifteen police of all kinds, classes,
and individuals.
Q. How much ground was covered by each one of these patrolmen?
A. Some less and some more, if you knew the city I think you would know
it. Well, take for instance, starting at the corner of Fourth avenue
and Smithfield street, go following the cars down to the river;
downwards, go down Fourth avenue in that direction and you cross Wood
street, and you cross Market street, and you come to Ferry street, then
you go along Ferry street, which may be called the lower end of town,
to Second, then you reverse and come up this way, you come to
Smithfield street, and you walk up to the corner of Fourth avenue and
Smithfield street, the place of beginning, a route that really would be
too much for two men, one man had to do it.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. How much ground would a man have to cover taking in all the side
streets?
A. He would have to cover six squares, and extraordinarily large
squares at that, and I think that it would take him over twenty minutes
to rapidly walk it.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. These police were night watchmen then all of them?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Had you before that had any day police?
A. Oh, yes. Previous to that, altogether the whole police force of
policemen, including ten lamp-watchmen, consisted of two hundred and
twenty-six men, and in consequence of the heavy taxation, and the
absolute inability of the treasurer to pay for the policemen, they were
compelled to cut it down one hundred and eleven men, or rather one
hundred and sixteen men altogether--I am talking about policemen, I
leave the lamp watchmen out--and then there was a deficiency of sixteen
to eighteen thousand dollars for the year.
Q. When was that done?
A. That was done on the 1st of July, or thereabouts, maybe a little
before that.
Q. You may state what occurred when Mr. Watt came to your office, on
Thursday, the 19th?
A. Mr. Watt came and stated that he wanted ten men. I told him I
couldn't furnish him ten men. I would furnish him with what we could,
but if he would pay for them, we could pick up some of those discharged
policemen who were not employed, and he very promptly answered that he
would pay for them. So I told Detective McGovern and some others to
take what they could, and all our own men, and fill up with the idle
policemen, and that the policemen would be paid by Mr. Watt. Mr. Watt
requested me to go up with them, which I declined to do. I couldn't see
any reason why the mayor of the city of Pittsburgh should go to the
Pennsylvania depot to take cognizance of a disturbance that only
required ten men, in his own opinion, and I sent a very faithful and
one of the best officers in charge of the men, Detective McGovern, a
very clear-headed man.
Q. What did he say as to the extent of the disturbance up there?
A. He made no remarks about that.
Q. Did you ask him anything about it?
A. No, sir. Gave him what he asked for.
Q. Was any report made to you by Officer McGovern.
A. Oh, yes. We had reports all the time from that until this morning.
Officer McGovern reported to me--I cannot say whether it was McGovern,
or who it was--but the first intimation I had of any violence was a
report come to me that a man by the name of McCall had struck Mr. Watt;
that he was arrested and taken to the station-house by the police. Then
I heard afterwards from this time out--what I have got to say about
Thursday will be hearsay. You can produce evidence and substantiate
whatever I may say--I heard there was a train somewhere about three
o'clock to go out, and the police aboard the train told the engineer
they would protect him. The track was clear, and the engineer refused
to go on, and got down and left the engine in the possession of the
police.
Q. What police was on the train?
A. That was in the afternoon.
Q. What police was on the train?
A. I cannot exactly tell you, but I think that Mr. Motts, Mr. Coulson,
and some others were there.
Q. How did you obtain this information?
A. From the police.
Q. An official report from the police?
A. Oh, no. We didn't have that much red tape about these things. The
only red tape we had was the morning report of the different
lieutenants. I can produce the men; I suppose you will want them to
verify it.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. They would report to the lieutenant would they?
A. No; they were in charge of Mr. Watt. The truth is, these men are
under the control of the officers of the Pennsylvania railroad, and I
felt it my duty to send as many men as I could there, who were paid by
the city, and the others had to be paid by the railroad company, as I
told you, but all the men we had in July was nine men.
Q. Did you send any of those nine men?
A. Oh, yes; McGovern and White and some more of them--I am a little
mixed; and there was another order given for men as I understand. I
started Mr. Davis to get them, but on that I am not so clear--I am a
little mixed on that; Mr. Davis, however, can tell. He told me he met
me on Fifth avenue and told me an order had come for more men, and I
started then from Fifth avenue to get them.
Q. Did you receive any word from Mr. Watt after he left you with the
ten police?
A. Directly from Mr. Watt?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. No; not a word.
Q. Did you receive any telegram from him calling for fifteen more men
or twenty-five more men?
A. I didn't receive anything of the kind; but I guess that must be the
word Mr. Davis speaks about when he says he met me on Fifth avenue, and
I told him to get the men.
Q. Didn't your clerks or any of your subordinates notify you that such
a telegram had been received from Mr. Watt?
A. I don't know what Mr. Davis says he told me on Fifth avenue.
Q. For fifty men?
A. No, sir; I took supper at Castle Shannon. I left at a quarter to
five, and came back at eight, and then there were some persons from the
Pennsylvania had been there for policemen, and the Pennsylvania
railroad got all the policemen they wanted. They got so many that they
sent back word that they did not want any more.
Q. Did they send any such word to you personally?
A. No; I can prove it.
Q. I want just what they said about--the next that took place between
you and the officers?
A. I got no communication directly from the officers of the
Pennsylvania, from the time Mr. Watt had been there in the forenoon.
Q. Did you receive any telegram from Mr. Watt calling for fifty police?
A. I didn't.
Q. Were you notified by your clerks or subordinates that such a
telegram had been received at your office?
A. Not in the shape you put it.
Q. Did you see Mr. Watt after he left with the ten men?
A. No, sir; I don't think that I did. I have no recollection of it
whatever. I don't believe I did.
Q. Where were you from eight o'clock Thursday night, during the balance
of the night?
A. I was at the office, and in the neighborhood.
Q. Were any reports made to you during the night, from the policemen?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In regard to the situation?
A. Yes; that everything was quiet.
Q. From what men?
A. I cannot name them, but I can bring the men here who were there to
testify. Let me tell you what the police told me--the men that were out
there.
Q. It is hearsay evidence. I think it is hardly proper?
A. Hear my statement, then, for your own guidance.
Q. I understand you to say that you didn't receive any dispatch from
Mr. Watt, calling for fifty men, nor it was not communicated about in
that form?
A. No, sir; it was not. Nothing of that kind occurred. He may have sent
a dispatch, but I think I can very conscientiously affirm that I never
saw it.
Q. Do you allow your clerks to act upon intelligence received at the
office, without instructions from you?
A. Most undoubtedly. When I am away a riot or disturbance ought not to
be going along until I come back. They know the general rules I act
upon.
Q. Communications, in the shape of letters and dispatches, are they
placed on file in your office, when received in your absence?
A. No, sir; not placed on file at any time. They are attended to and
thrown away.
Q. Attended to by your clerks?
A. Yes; the chief of police and the clerks. If I am up in the Eleventh
ward, they would have to wait an hour and a half until I got down.
Q. If a dispatch was received at your office, notifying you of a
disturbance in one part of the city, and you are in another part of the
city?
A. It would be attended to.
Q. It would be attended to without notifying you of the fact?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You have telegraphic communications to all parts of the city, I
suppose--stations?
A. With the station-house. We have got one station-house in the
Thirty-sixth ward, Thirtieth ward, one in the Twenty-first, and one in
the Second, or rather the telegraph is in the Third, one in the
Eleventh, one in the Twelfth, and one in the Fourteenth, one in the
Seventeenth, and one in the Nineteenth.
Q. Did you receive any reports during the night--Thursday night?
A. Yes; and everything was quiet.
Q. What officer had charge of that part of the city near Twenty-eighth
street--what police officer?
A. Lieutenant Coates had.
Q. Did you receive any reports from him during the night?
A. I do not know that I did.
Q. Were there any affidavits made before you against parties--against
any disorderly conduct?
A. There was on Friday forenoon.
Q. Did you issue warrants for that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. For how many?
A. Well, I guess there was eight or nine, maybe more--I have forgotten.
Q. In whose hands were those warrants placed to execute?
A. I cannot tell distinctly, but I think it was in the hands of Mr.
McGovern.
Q. Did he execute the warrants? What instructions did you give him
about that?
A. I told him that in consequence of the calling out of the soldiers
that the public mind excited, and it would be very dangerous to act as
we usually acted, and for him to be exceedingly cautious, and cause no
disturbance.
Q. When you placed the warrants in his hands, what instructions did you
give him?
A. That is what I gave him.
Q. Had the soldiers been called out?
A. Yes; I was perfectly astonished when I took up the newspapers. Here
was a whole lot of telegraphic dispatches, that had been flying from
one end of the State to the other.
Q. On Thursday morning or Friday morning?
A. On Friday morning.
Q. You did not tell him to make the arrests?
A. Absolutely?
Q. Yes?
A. No, sir; I knew too much for that. The policemen at any time create
a riot in the street by going at it brashly, and after the soldiers
were in it, I thought it very dangerous.
Q. Why?
A. Because they were under the control of men who were rather of the
narrow gauge pattern, about 2×3.
They were men who knew no law but the law of force, and had no
knowledge that truculent defiance always begets truculent defiance. Had
the force been in the hands of men who thought with Coleridge, when he
said:
"He prayeth well who loveth well, Both man, and bird, and beast."
Had it been in the hands of men, who had any idea like Coleridge, there
would not have been a life lost, nor a dollar of property destroyed, in
my deliberate opinion.
By Mr. Means:
Q. You speak of those two or three, do you allude to the military now?
A. I allude to the men assuming charge--that had control of the force
after I was displaced by the military and counsel.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Did you not have charge of these in the beginning of the riot or
disturbance?
A. No, sir.
Q. Why not?
A. Because Mr. Watt came over and asked for ten men, and they were
given to him.
Q. He asked you to go out, didn't he?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You refused?
A. I did, for the reason that I could see no reason from anything he
said that the mayor should start out to take charge of ten men, and
control it--it must have been a very small affair.
Q. You received notice that another call had been made by Mr. Watt,
didn't you?
A. No, sir; I have reason to believe, from what I heard--that Mr. Davis
informs me--that I told him to go ahead and send them.
Q. Didn't Mr. Watt inform you that your presence could do a good deal
towards quelling the disturbance there?
A. Not that I can remember.
Q. Would not it have had that effect, in your opinion?
A. Indeed, I do not know. I think a disturbance that in Mr. Watt's
opinion only required ten men, didn't require the city to go there in
the person of the mayor, because it was a very slight affair, as he
represented it--it made no impression upon me.
Q. A man, such as Mr. Coleridge described in that quotation you have
made, would have had that effect?
A. No, sir; he would have been called upon, and if he had been asked to
call for troops, it would have come in. Let me say about calling for
troops, that if Mr. Mackey and Mr. Hartranft--but I should say Governor
Hartranft and Mr. Mackey--had been in Harrisburg, there would not have
been a troop brought here, and peace would have been preserved, but,
unfortunately, neither of these two gentlemen were there. Let me tell
you, sir, we had a puddler's strike here, and that I had some hand in,
and the peace of the city was preserved; and notwithstanding the peace
of the city was preserved all the time, some person, I don't know who,
sent a request to the Governor for troops, that the peace of the city
was disturbed and it could not be preserved. Mr. Hartranft did not know
what to do, so he sent for Mr. Mackey. Mr. Mackey came to him and told
him, says he, "Wait a few minutes, and I will let you know what to do."
Mr. Mackey told him----
Q. Are you testifying to facts within your knowledge?
A. Within my knowledge. Mr. Mackey telegraphed to a gentlemen that I
know very well, as to what the condition of affairs was. The gentleman
telegraphed back that it was idle and futile to send soldiers here, and
it would only create a disturbance. They could keep them away. They
were kept away, and there was not a man killed, and not a dollar's
worth of property destroyed.
Q. When was that?
A. It was two years ago.
Q. You say that you acted in attempting to keep and preserve the peace
here and keep down violence until superseded by the military?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is not the military always in subjection to the civil authorities?
A. The Constitution says so, but the facts of the case are otherwise.
Q. Had you not entire authority and control, at all times, within the
limits and jurisdiction of the city?
A. Not when the sheriff comes to the front. He is the chief peace
officer of the county, and has the whole county at his beck and nod.
The mayor is simply the city.
Q. Is not it the duty of other head officers to coöperate with the
sheriff?
A. That depends upon circumstances. I could not coöperate with the
sheriff, because the matter was under control of men who were acting
entirely different from any way that I would have acted in the case,
and I could not assume responsibility in a state of facts that I
believe would lead to what was the ultimate result.
Q. Is not your power as magistrate, within the city limits, identical
with those of the sheriff?
A. They are.
Q. What hindered you from acting then?
A. Because the sheriff took possession of the case, and called upon the
troops. Had the sheriff come to consult me, instead of going to the
Pennsylvania Railroad Company's office, and assumed control in calling
for troops, the result would have been different. But I was thrown
aside. I didn't suit.
Q. You were asked to go up to the scene of the disturbance, were you
not?
A. No, sir.
Q. Didn't Mr. Watt ask you?
A. Not that I know of.
Q. Did he at ten o'clock, on Thursday, ask you to go to the scene of
the disturbance?
A. He did.
Q. And you refused to go?
A. Yes, for the reason that I told you, that he asked for ten men, and
I knew no reason--when he got all the men he asked for, and it was only
ten men--I didn't see any reason why the mayor should go up there.
Q. Did you go up to the scene of the disturbance at any time during
Friday?
A. No, sir.
Q. Friday night?
A. No, sir.
Q. Saturday?
A. No, sir.
Q. Saturday night?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. At what time?
A. Well, I think when I got out there, it must have been ten o'clock.
Q. What did you find there?
A. I found a howling mob, many of them armed.
Q. Did you know that this firing was going on all this time between ten
o'clock Thursday and ten o'clock Saturday night, when you went to the
scene of the disturbance?
A. I knew nothing of the disturbance at all. I heard that the soldiers
had fired upon the crowd.
Q. You knew that there were crowds there, didn't you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You knew they prevented freights from running?
A. I did not.
Q. You know that they prevented freight trains from going out?
A. No, sir; I believe the fact is otherwise. I believe the fact is that
after the police got possession of a train, on Thursday afternoon, that
the engineer deserted, and that the Pennsylvania Railroad Company
didn't attempt to put another freight out--that is what I heard.
Q. That is hearsay, isn't it?
A. That is, and I guess it is very true, too.
Q. You had come out then to see?
A. No, sir; I didn't.
Q. On Friday, did you increase your police force any?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you increase them any on Friday night?
A. No, sir.
Q. On Saturday?
A. No, sir.
Q. Saturday night?
A. Saturday night, when we heard of the shooting I directed the
officers to go round and inform the proprietors of the gun shops of
what had taken place, and to put themselves in a state of defense, and
to get their arms out of the road; for they might be assailed, and
directed the chief of police to insert an advertisement in the Sunday
papers, calling upon the discharged policemen to appear at the mayor's
office for duty. My idea of that was that there might be a necessity
for these men performing police duty in the streets. I had no idea,
until at that time, that where the city and county authorities had a
thousand men under their command, in the Twelfth ward, that any
policemen would be required or needed on the property of the
Pennsylvania railroad, but I did think there would be very great
excitement, and it would be necessary to have a force on the streets,
not knowing what would happen, and I directed a call to be made for an
immediate meeting of the police committee, on Sunday morning.
Q. Were the day force placed back on duty on Sunday morning?
A. Let me go on, as nigh as I can, in a chronological order of events.
My mind, as to hours, after I got in the Twelfth ward and saw the state
of affairs there, is a blank. I could not give you an hour from that
time up to Monday morning, but I was on deck all that time. I went up
to the Twelfth ward, saw a crowd there, and mixed in among them. Had a
talk with quite a number of them, and tried to dissuade them from acts
of violence and disorder, but I was talking to a lot of crazy men.
Words were nowhere. Somewhere, as nigh as I can guess, I was in front
of the Twelfth ward station-house, immediately above Twenty-sixth
street or Penn avenue, and I was too late. It struck me then that there
must be some cars set on fire. I left there and went up to the corner
of Liberty and Twenty-fifth street, and saw a car on fire immediately
above Twenty-fifth street. I looked at the situation, and turned back
to the corner of Twenty-eighth and Penn streets, and I there met a
policeman, who I think was Mr. Scribner. Says I, "Has the box been
pulled?" Says he, "No; the crowd won't let us, but the alarm has been
sent down to the police telegraph." I then waited there a very, very
long time, expecting the fire department to come. When I stayed there
long enough, and hearing nothing of the fire department, I came to the
conclusion that the message sent by the police telegraph had failed. By
this time Alderman Barclay was along side of a police officer, and a
large man, whom I knew by sight, but not by name, and I said to the
alderman, says I, "Can't we send an alarm in on this box." The alderman
said, "We can try it." He went, I think, into the drug store and got a
key, and four of us went to the box, and nobody interfered with
us--there were very few up at that corner, and the alderman opened the
box, and this man, I believe, he pulled it. We waited another long
time--a very long time--and heard nothing of the fire department. Then
I began to make inquiries, and I ascertained that a portion of the fire
department had come up Penn avenue, and for reasons satisfactory to
themselves, had stopped immediately below the Independence engine
house, on Penn avenue, somewhere about Twenty-first or Twentieth
street--I cannot give you the number--and that they had been stopped
there, and were afraid to go on. I do not know what reason they
had--they had some reason. I then went to the station-house; but, by
the by, I may say here, when I left the lower end of the city the mob
was still going through the streets, and I should have stated before,
chronologically--what I forgot--that I issued orders by telegraph, and
the men met at eight o'clock in the evening, at the station-house,
after having lit the lamps.
Q. Saturday evening?
A. Saturday evening. I ordered all the policemen from the first,
second, fourth, seventh, eighth, ninth districts, to leave their
station-houses, and to come at once to the central station, as soon as
the men would come to the station-house. These men came between eight
and nine o'clock, most of them nine o'clock, may be later. Some of them
had to walk a distance of two miles, and they were put on duty
immediately through the streets, and when I thought that I could leave
things safely to the direction of the police, I went to the Twelfth
ward to see how things were standing. That was the position of matters.
When I found that the fire department had not or could not come, I went
to the station-house--the Twelfth ward station-house--and telegraphed
down to the central station to send up all the police that could be
spared. That was done, and as these policemen came up, two or three or
four or five or six, &c.--there was a great quantity of stealing going
on.
Q. How many policemen came up?
A. I will get at that in a few minutes. As they came there was a great
deal of stealing going on, and as fast as they came to the
station-house, I started them out on to Penn street, to arrest the
people that were carrying off goods. They continued at that work until
such times as I thought I had enough policemen to assist the firemen,
at which time possibly I may have had fifty or sixty, may be forty. I
do not suppose I had over forty or fifty. When I thought I had enough
to protect the firemen, I told officer Coulston to go to the fire
department and tell them that we now had police sufficient, I thought,
to protect them, and to come on, and we would do the best we could.
Coulston started off with that message. After a lapse of sufficient
time he came back and told me he had informed the parties in charge, of
my message, that they replied to them that they would not move until
they were ordered by the chief of the fire department and the fire
commissioners, and I supposed, that at that time I may have had, all
told, fifty or sixty--about fifty policemen--the fifth district and the
sixth district had not been called in. The fifth district and the
Lawrenceville district immediately adjoining the point where the
Allegheny Valley railroad runs through, they were not called in because
I supposed they would have as much to do in their own districts. The
sixth district was not called in because Torrens station and the
stock-yards were in that district, and I thought it altogether likely
that the police of these two districts would be wanted to take care of
things there for the reason I have given you.
Q. How long did you keep those policemen there in the Twelfth ward?
A. They were kept there until their regular time of going on duty.
Q. What time was that?
A. Well, the regular time was six o'clock, but they were there long
after that.
Q. Sunday morning?
A. Yes, sir. I will tell you about that. I stayed up there until
somewhere in the neighborhood of daylight. The soldiers, I had
supposed, that had taken refuge in the houses there, that their
strategy was to stay until daylight would come, and then they would
come out upon the railroad track and take possession. That is what I
supposed--nobody communicated to me what they would do.
Q. Did you make any effort to communicate with General Brinton or
General Pearson?
A. No, sir; I did not. I thought those gentlemen had the matter in
their own hands, and didn't want any advice from me; and about
daylight, or thereabouts, I came down town, and somewhere in the
neighborhood of seven o'clock, or thereabouts, it might have been a
little after seven--might have been half an hour, but I just name that
at random, approximate it--I received a telegraphic dispatch from the
Twelfth ward station that the soldiers were on Penn avenue, marching
past the Twelfth ward station-house. That struck me that it was an
admirable strategic movement. I thought they had come off the railroad
property with their full strength, five hundred or six hundred strong,
to march through the streets, to intimidate the crowd, and I was highly
delighted at that idea, and I requested Mr. Davis to go and get a buggy
that we might go up and witness the effect of it. He came with the
buggy, and we both started out, and after we got a considerable
distance up town, in the neighborhood of the Twelfth ward, I received
information that these men were retreating from the city--six hundred
armed men. It sent my heart down about my thighs. I could not
understand it. I could not believe it. Then the idea struck me that
these men were not retreating from the city, but they were following a
line of march by which they had two roads to go to East Liberty. I
thought they were going either one of those two roads to join the
forces out there, and possibly to come in together. When I got as far
as the car stables, in Lawrenceville, just about Forty-second street, I
think, I bethought myself it was hardly worth while to make that horse
pull two hundred and ten pounds unnecessarily, and I stopped the buggy
and got out. I told Mr. Davis to go on after the troops, and not to
return until he knew where they had gone to. They might have gone by
Stanton avenue to East Liberty, from the upper side of the cemetery, or
they might have gone by the Morning side road up to the Sharpsburg
bridge. I told him to go on, and not give it up until he could locate
them, and then to come back to the Twelfth ward station-house, and
report to me, and I then got in a street car at the car stables and
came down to the Twelfth ward station-house. Then I telegraphed down to
the central station to detain all the police that were there, and send
them to the Twelfth ward, and I got tired waiting on Mr. Davis, and
knowing that the police committee was to meet, I went over to where the
firemen were at work, for the purpose of seeing the chief engineer, and
concert with him some plan of action by which I could assist them. I
could not find the chief engineer, high nor low. I asked the firemen
where he was, and they didn't know, and I took that the work upon the
fire--this was not on the railroad property, but on the opposite side
of Liberty street where they were at work. I thought the work was
ineffective, and I spoke to the firemen about it, and they told me the
reason of it was that the water in the basin was low. I thought that a
little strange, because it was a rule with the water department, with
which I had been connected a great many years, to always have it full
on Sunday, but I determined to see about that. Failing to see the chief
engineer, I could not waste my time in hunting him, and I came down
town. On my way down, I met the superintendent of the water-works, and
I says to him, "Jim, the firemen complain they cannot work effectively
up in the Twelfth ward, because there is no water in the basin," I
think that is the way I put it to him. Says he "I think they are
mistaken; the basin is full of water." I think it was at Eleventh
street I met him. I came down to the central station, and, on the
pavement, I met the secretary of the fire commission, Mr. Case. I says
to him, "Frank, the firemen tell me that there is no water in the
basin"--I meant a small quantity of water in the basin--"I saw Jim
Atkinson on my way down, and he tells me the basin is full. You take my
buggy at once, and go up and tell them that the basin is full, that
they need not be afraid of the supply of water, and you leave the buggy
at Rosewell's stables." He departed, and I suppose gave my message.
Q. What time did the fire commence on Saturday night?
A. It is a guess with me, but I think it must have been about eleven
o'clock. I don't think I am far wrong.
Q. You stayed there during the night?
A. Yes; I was going through the crowd during the whole night.
Q. When you got fifty policemen, did you make any effort with those
policemen to drive the crowd from the cars that were burning?
A. No, sir; I did not.
Q. Your efforts were simply confined to arresting men that were
carrying off plunder?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Your policemen armed?
A. Some are and some are not.
Q. They are all armed with maces, I suppose?
A. Yes; they all have maces.
Q. Why didn't you make some effort to stop the burning?
A. Because, in my judgment, it could not be done.
Q. How many men would it have taken to have stopped that that night?
A. Lord knows! I can't tell. I think it would have taken a good many.
Near a thousand men cooped themselves up in some houses, and cooped all
those men up in those houses after having done the firing. It was
yielding to the mob. It was just saying plainly, that the mob was
stronger than the soldiers, and that forty or fifty policemen, who had
never been in a disturbance of this nature or kind, would simply have
been suicidal?
Q. After coming to the central station, Sunday morning, did you return
again?
A. Yes, sir; I did.
Q. What hour?
A. That I could not tell you. As I told you before, I took no note of
time. It was after I had seen the police committee, and had talked with
some of the citizens, with regard to a citizens' meeting, I went up on.
Q. During the day, on Sunday, how many policemen had you in the
vicinity of the riot?
A. That I can't tell. I did not suppose, that all told, so far as I
could guess or know, there were not more than thirty or forty.
Q. Did you make any demand to recruit your police--demand upon men to
serve on the police?
A. That had been done by advertisement in the Sunday morning papers, by
the chief of police?
Q. Did you issue an order calling on men, demanding them to join your
police force?
A. Which, on Sunday?
Q. At any time?
A. Nothing, except that on Saturday morning for the police.
Q. It was in the shape of a request, was it not?
A. Yes; it was an order.
Q. It was not a command such as would be a command under the laws of
the Commonwealth?
A. I don't think it was. I didn't see it. I didn't look for it.
Q. It was placed in the papers by your clerk?
A. By the chief of police.
Q. When you went to the scene of the riot on Saturday night, did you
use efforts yourself to suppress the riot or stop it?
A. I went into the crowd and talked with them, but I might as well have
talked to the moon.
Q. Who did you talk with?
A. There were several that I talked to that I did not know. I only met
one man that I did know, and he had been a lieutenant of police.
Q. He was engaged in rioting?
A. He was there with the crowd and very muddled.
Q. How long before that had he been lieutenant of police?
A. He had been lieutenant of police, I suppose, as near as I can judge,
some three weeks before.
Q. And discharged under the order discharging the day force?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you meet any other persons that had been members of the police
force?
A. No; not in that position?
Q. What replies did you get from the men when admonishing them to
desist?
A. Everybody was filled with the idea that the troops the citizens
causelessly, and that had excited the indignation and made men wild. It
was a fearful sentiment on Saturday night.
Q. I understood you to state that the reason why you did not go to the
Twelfth ward during the Friday and Saturday before, was that you had
been superseded by the military?
A. Yes; and because I was perfectly satisfied that the influence that
controlled would be disastrous, and that I could not prevent it, and I
was not going to permit myself to be compromised by it.
Q. You did go to the scene on Saturday night?
A. I did.
Q. Or rather on Sunday?
A. I did.
Q. Had you gone there on Thursday, or Friday, or Saturday morning, and
made use of the police that you had under your command, could you not
have prevented the disturbance?
A. Permit me to say again that it was impossible for me to have any
connection with the men who had charge of that, because I could not
control them. They are men that would not listen to me, and that I
could have no influence with.
Q. Whom do you refer to?
A. I refer to the leading officers of the Pennsylvania Railroad
Company.
Q. You had control of your police force, hadn't you?
A. I had.
Q. You have control of the affairs of the city.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the organization of the police?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You could have control of the force--you are the peace officer of
the city?
A. Yes, sir; and there is the sheriff.
Q. Why did not you then assert your rights as peace officer?
A. Because I recognized the fact that I have no right to come in
conflict with the sheriff and the military. I was utterly hostile to
their movements and to their plan of operations, and I felt satisfied
that it could have no other end than the end that was reached. I,
surely, under those circumstances, would have been of no more use than
a painted ship upon a painted sea. They would not listen to me.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. Did you go to them and talk with them, or did you try and see
whether you could cooperate with them in any manner?
A. No, sir; I knew the men. That was enough for me.
Q. Do I understand you to say that there was an antagonism between you
and the sheriff of the county?
A. It could not be otherwise in this matter, because they had adopted a
plan of action that I could have nothing at all to do with.
Q. Were you called on first by the railroad officials?
A. Yes; and gave them all they wanted, and gave them so many men--I
will prove to you that they said they didn't want them.
Q. You were asked to go to the scene of the disturbance?
A. Yes; we have talked that matter over several times.
Q. Did you receive any communication from Mr. Scott, the solicitor of
the road, on Thursday?
A. I did not.
Q. On Friday?
A. I did not.
Q. Did he make a request to you that you would order the saloons of the
city closed?
A. I got a document on Saturday afternoon--I don't know, some time on
Saturday it was, according to my recollection--it was by Mr. Thaw, I
think by Mr. McCullough, and I think by Mr. Quay, and I think by Mr.
Latta, requesting me to request the saloons to be closed, which
request, on my part, was complied with.
Q. At what time?
A. That I could not say. I had no right to compel the closing of
them--none whatever. I could only request.
Q. You had a riot and disorder in the city then. Do I understand that
you had no right to order the saloons closed?
A. No, sir; I have no right to order them closed, under any
circumstances, except upon Sunday or upon election days. Then the laws
forbid them to be open.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Did you have any knowledge of the disturbance, and the extent of the
disturbance during Thursday, Friday, and Saturday, out in the vicinity
of the Union depot, on the railroad?
A. I did not know of any disturbance occurring.
Q. During any of those days?
A. None of those days, except what I told you as having occurred on
Thursday. I had reason to believe that there was no disturbance from
Thursday afternoon until Saturday afternoon.
Q. Didn't you know of a large collection of people in that vicinity?
A. Oh, yes, sir. I knew they were coming there--went there to see the
soldiers--what was going on. People went there as they would to a
county fair or a boat race, to see what was to be seen. Men with their
families, women with their children, even children in their arms, went
there from curiosity.
Q. Don't you know that there was a large crowd there before the
military arrived?
A. No, sir.
Q. No knowledge of that?
A. No knowledge of what we would call a large crowd. I know there was
quite a crowd there on Thursday. I know from what I am told, there was
a crowd there at the time of the alleged disturbance with Mr. Watt and
Mr. McCall.
Q. Hadn't you been told by citizens and others, that there was a large
crowd there--likely to be trouble?
A. No, sir.
Q. Hadn't any idea?
A. I had an idea that there was to be trouble, because when the
military came out they were subject to the thousand contingencies that
would produce disturbance.
Q. Had you any intimation of trouble before the military were ordered
out?
A. As much as I told you occurred on Friday, after the arrest by the
police of this man who was alleged to have struck Mr. Watt. Think there
was no disturbance after that during the whole of Thursday night, and
to Friday morning, when the police were dismissed.
Q. Did you go to any trouble to ascertain the extent of that
disturbance, on the first disturbance on Thursday?
A. Of course, I knew the extent of it from what the police told me.
Q. You were shortly informed of what was going on--made all efforts
necessary to ascertain?
A. It came to me without an effort.
Q. Didn't require any effort to ascertain?
A. No, sir; I inquired what going on, and ascertained what was going
on.
Q. Didn't your police inform you that the mob had overpowered the
police, and also the railroad authorities, on Thursday?
A. Why, no! they didn't overpower them. I proved that here. They were
not overpowered.
Q. They had every control of their railroad and their rolling stock
without interference?
A. I will prove it to you by the police.
Q. I want to know what you were informed of the situation of
affairs--what you know of your own knowledge?
A. I was not there. I don't know anything of my own knowledge. I can
tell you what can be proved by the police.
Q. I ask you the question, what reports you got from your officers?
A. That everything was quiet and peaceable after the arrest of McCall.
Q. Did you receive any reports from your officers on Friday, that
everything was quiet?
A. On Friday morning I received word that the police had been dismissed
by the Pennsylvania railroad men.
Q. Who informed you of that fact?
A. I can't tell you.
Q. An officer of your force?
A. I presume so; in fact it must have been; that state of facts I can
prove here and demonstrate.
Q. Did you at any time deem it necessary to increase your force of
police?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. But did you do so?
A. Done what I could to increase.
Q. To what extent did you increase your force?
A. It was increased upwards of one hundred men, by the order of the
committee of public safety, and after I got about one hundred, their
orders were that I should increase the force to three hundred, but I
came to the conclusion that that number of men were not needed, and I
didn't employ any more. I suppose we had altogether about two hundred
and forty or two hundred and fifty men.
Q. Did you increase your police force before you were ordered to do so
by the public committee?
A. Yes; to the extent of ordering the police who were unemployed to
report to the city hall for duty on Sunday forenoon. A portion of them
came, not many. They considered they had been very badly treated, and
they did not care about risking their lives under those circumstances.
Q. Could you have demanded citizens to serve as police on your force?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And did you do so?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you have all you needed?
A. No, sir.
Q. Why did not you make this demand?
A. Because I had no time to do it. My time was fully occupied. I had
met several gentlemen in the morning, and they called a citizens'
meeting for the forenoon, and I expected them to make arrangements to
go out, in what we might call, in a non-legal way, in a posse, but
instead of doing that they thought it more advisable to send a number
of gentlemen up to address the crowd.
Q. Who thought so?
A. The meeting.
Q. Citizens' meeting?
A. Yes, sir; they were there and addressed the crowd from the upper end
of the platform of the Union depot, but it was of no avail, talking was
of no use. Then they were to have a meeting in the afternoon. I came
down to that meeting and met the committee at the city hall, talked a
little there, and then they adjourned to meet on Market street, and
there was considerable talk. Doctor Donnelly was there, he was one of
the spokesmen, and he talked there about having offered, with the
permission of the mayor, a company. He is slightly mistaken as to
having formed a company; it was I who formed it.
Q. A military company with arms?
A. No, sir; a company of citizens.
Q. Armed citizens?
A. They were not armed. They had nothing.
Q. You subsequently armed them, didn't you?
A. Yes, sir. To properly understand the spirit with which I was
actuated, with permission of the committee, I will read two extracts,
one from the _Post_ of Monday, and one from the _Gazette_ of Monday
morning, these extracts are not literally reported, but to show the
spirit that was there, and with permission of the committee, I will
read them.
Q. Are they long?
A. No, sir; they are not long. This is from the _Post_ of Monday, July
23, 1877.
Q. An editorial?
A. A local report. This is the extract: "An enterprising individual
here endeavored to throw cold water on the spirit of the meeting, by
saying they needed a thousand men; but he was suppressed. Mayor
McCarthy rushed to the stand, and said there was no use of any more
fooling. 'Let all who wanted to save their city fall into line, and go
at once to the mayor's office, and be sworn in as extra policemen. The
fire was spreading, and the incendiaries were still at work, and we
must act now.'" Then the reporter puts in this: "This suited the
meeting, and a portion of the meeting formed in line, and, under head
of the mayor, marched off." That is from the _Post_.
Q. Before you go any further, did you command that force?
A. I led them; went at their head. I will give you a history of that.
Q. As commander of them?
A. Yes; they were not going into action. There is a history about this,
which I will give you after reading this. This is from the
_Gazette_ of Monday, July 23, an extract: "There was now a
loud call for the mayor, who was in the crowd. He stepped to the front,
and said, 'The city is on fire. There is no time to be lost. I want
every man, who is ready to help me, to go up here to join this band to
go and put down incendiaries.' Mr. Henry Pilipps, junior, said, 'Let us
go to the city hall at once, and be perfectly organized as a vigilance
committee, and let the mayor swear his policemen in.' The mayor then
said, 'I can swear them in now,' and suiting the action to the word,
the mayor made his way to one end of the crowd, and countermarched
through them. The ranks were quickly filled up, as soon as the movement
was understood. The meeting adjourned to call of the chair, and the
company proceeded up Fifth avenue." Now this company that I formed
there. Doctor Donnelly was present, and he had been spoken of as a fit
person to command. I intended to have taken them down Diamond alley to
Gregg's store, and arm them with axe-handles or pick-handles, or
whatever could be got; but the large majority of them were indisposed
to do that, and we started off to the university building, across the
way here, and two or three portions of the building were broken in in
search of some drilling arms that the cadets in the university use.
After a considerable waste of time there, they couldn't get the arms.
We succeeded in getting them into line again, and we marched off to
Gregg's. Mr. Gregg opened the door, and the line formed outside in the
street, and some men went into the store, and they carried enough of
those ax-handles to arm the crowd. When that was done, I turned them
over to Doctor Donnelly. In anticipation of the formation of this
company, I had given orders for a number of police to collect at the
city hall, to the end that they would lead this company and precede
them, and in that position go and attack the rioters. When I had put
Doctor Donnelly in charge, I told him to bring his men to the city
hall, and I would give him a police force to precede them and march at
their head to go to the scene of the riot. I don't know whether the
Doctor understood me or not; but his police force did go. His company
didn't go to the city hall, and right here, permit me to say that you
have heard a great deal about fifty men squelching this mob, and a
hundred determined men. I suppose Doctor Donnelly thought he had
determined men, and he didn't go for police assistance. Possibly he
expected he could accomplish it all without the aid of police. He went;
he was repulsed horse, foot, and dragoon. The next thing I saw of them
they came to the city hall in a demoralized condition. I said to the
doctor when he came there, says I, "Doctor, keep your men here. I
understand that there is a company of soldiers on a steamboat at the
lock. You and I will go up and see if we can get them." He got into the
buggy, and we went up there. We saw the lady of the house at the lock,
and she told me that these men had had orders to go into camp at the
poor farm. We came back to the city hall, and was informed that Doctor
Donnelly's troops had gone to their supper, and would be back after
supper. After supper there came some eight or ten of them--they were
there ready for action. That was all that came back, and so you see
what fifty determined men could do.
Q. Did this company of Doctor Donnelly's go up there armed with
anything else but pick handles?
A. I don't know. I think that after I left them ready to come to the
city hall, that they went some place and got some arms, because they
came back to the mayor's office with some instruments----
Q. Muskets?
A. I guess there were some muskets the university had used. I know the
university authorities created quite a disturbance about their not
being returned to them.
Q. You spoke about different parties coming there to suppress this
riot. Who were those parties, besides your officers--I mean outside of
the city authorities?
A. This meeting of the citizens.
Q. Who else?
A. I don't know any others.
Q. The sheriff and the county authorities?
A. I saw nothing of them on Sunday.
Q. You were speaking of those parties attempting command or change of
affairs in trying to suppress the riots. Did you have reference to the
citizens' committee?
A. No, sir.
Q. Was it the sheriff's posse?
A. I have reference to the county authorities, the Pennsylvania
railroad, and the military.
Q. Then what was it you had reference to--the citizens?
A. No, sir.
Q. Nor Doctor Donnelly's command?
A. I think Doctor Donnelly's command went in good faith, to do what
they could--they were not able.
Q. You said you were utterly hostile to all those parties in their
efforts?
A. I said I was hostile to their plan of operations, because I didn't
think it was called for at the time it was done, because I believed it
would end in disaster, which it did.
Q. Did you make any effort to have any conference with these parties to
agree on some plan that would be effected?
A. No, sir; they went to work independent of me, and had called out the
troops without consulting me at all. I was at my office all night
waiting if anything would occur, and I knew nothing of this movement to
call troops out until I saw the dispatches on Friday morning.
Q. Do I understand you that because they did not consult you, you put
yourself in hostility to all these parties?
A. If you understand me that way, you understand me entirely wrong.
Q. I want to know that?
A. I have time and again here to-day stated that I was utterly hostile
to their plan of operations, and that I had nothing to do with them,
because I knew I would be powerless with these men.
Q. You made no effort to see them or converse with them, and had no
conference with them?
A. No, sir.
Q. Made no attempt to have any conference with them?
A. No, sir; I did not. I am satisfied they did not want me.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Was it not your duty as mayor of the city, to take charge,
notwithstanding these men, and if they put themselves in your way, to
take them and make them behave themselves?
A. No; I could not do that. The sheriff is the leading officer.
Q. Here among the powers, I find set forth is, "To prevent riots,
noises, disturbances, or disorderly assemblages--" that is a part of
your powers.
A. I will show you something stronger than that there. That is very
weak--wishy-washy. Do not understand me as being offensive--you have
got a pretty good-natured face, and I like to talk to you. There it is,
"The mayor of the city, shall be its executive officer, and the
conservator of its peace. He shall have and exercise within the city
limits, the powers conferred on sheriffs of counties, to suppress
disorder, and keep the peace.
Q. That is what I meant. Was it not part of your duty to take charge
yourself, as mayor?
A. Not under the circumstances. I had been superseded by the power that
had the whole county at its beck, who had without my knowledge, and, as
I thought, entirely unnecessary, laid out a plan of action I could have
nothing at all to do with.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. I would like at this point, for the mayor to explain why he
considered himself superseded, having acted without his knowledge.
A. Why I considered I had been superseded?
Q. You say that they acted without your knowledge. I want to know why
you considered yourself superseded?
A. I did not consider myself superseded because they acted without my
knowledge. If I said anything of that kind I have been misunderstood. I
have time and again tried to express myself upon that point, and that
is this, that the sheriff of the county, together with the military,
had taken possession of this matter, and superseded the mayor.
Q. Had you been so informed?
A. I was superseded by the dismissal of the police on Friday morning,
and the taking possession by soldiers who had been called out by the
State authorities.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Do you know the fact of your own knowledge that the police had been
dismissed?
A. I know that fact from the statement of the police--made to me and to
the office.
Q. That is the only way you know that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You received no intelligence of that fact from the railroad
officials?
A. No, sir; I did not.
Q. Is it their prerogative to dismiss the police, or have you got
control of them?
A. They were under control of the railroad authorities. They directed
them where to go, and according to their orders they went.
Q. Have they got control, equal to yourself, with any police in this
city?
A. Under the circumstances they had.
Q. You delegated that power to them?
A. They were sent there for that purpose, to do just as they said for
them to do.
Q. You delegated the power to the railroad officials to have charge of
these men?
A. I cannot say that I delegated them, because there were not over four
or five that were under my control.
Q. Did you consider, under all the circumstances, that the railroad
officials or anybody else had the right to dismiss police without
consulting you, or had any control over them?
A. Under those circumstances, I did.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. Was that dismissal anything more than a mere taking of those
warrants from the hands of the police, and putting them in the hands of
the sheriff?
A. There was nothing of the kind took place, and now understand me:
policemen, at the suggestion of the Pennsylvania Railroad Company, were
sent there during the afternoon and the night. They were there under
the control of the railroad authorities, and when the railroad
authorities did not want them any more, they dismissed them, which was
on Friday morning.
Q. You understand they gave them a formal dismissal, and told them
their services were not needed to keep the peace any longer?
A. I do not know in what form it was done.
Q. Was it not merely taking warrants from their hands, and telling
these policemen they would put the warrants that were in their hands
for execution into the hands of the sheriff to execute--was not that
all the dismissal there was?
A. At that time no warrants had been issued.
Q. On Friday?
A. On Friday morning, when the police were dismissed by the railroad
authorities, no warrants had been issued--no information had been made.
Q. After their dismissal, did you think then you had no further
occasion to keep the police force there?
A. Not because they were dismissed, but because I had been superseded
by the military and the county.
Q. I want to know why you thought you were superseded--were you so
informed by either of those parties, either the sheriff or the mayor,
or anybody acting for them?
A. No, sir; I was not informed by them.
Q. Why did you consider yourself superseded? Simply because they took
action to suppress the riot?
A. They took possession of the whole business. There was no room for
me.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. Would not your police force which you could have gathered together
have been some assistance to them in keeping the peace?
A. If the sheriff had asked me for the police as a posse to help him I
could have given a hundred men.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. I want to ask you this question, if you think that you can be
superseded by the military?
A. If I am not?
Q. Yes; can you be superseded by the military in your powers and
duties?
A. If I had charge they would not supersede me.
Q. Is it not your duty to take charge?
A. That duty had been performed by the sheriff.
Q. Is it not your duty to take charge of your police and put down any
riots or disturbance within the city limits, regardless of any power on
earth?
A. No, sir; in the event that the sheriff does not interfere, it would
be. If I got possession first I would hold.
Q. Were you not called upon first by the railroad officials?
A. I was called upon first by the railroad officials to furnish them
with ten men.
Q. And you acted?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Why did you not keep control?
A. Because they had taken it out of my hands by dismissing the police,
calling upon the sheriff, and the sheriff called upon the State for
troops.
Q. Then I understand you to say that the sheriff superseded you, in
your judgment?
A. That is what I said a dozen times.
Q. Did the military supersede you?
A. Certainly they did.
Q. I want to know if you think the military can supersede you?
A. Mr. Chairman, you are getting too hair-splitting here. If I had
charge the military could not supersede me--it would not be in their
power.
Q. Did you not have charge at the commencement?
A. At the commencement I had, but on Friday morning I was thrown to the
dogs. In the night they had sent for the sheriff. They did not come
down to the mayor's office, where I was ready and waiting to hear what
was going on there the whole night, but they went for the sheriff and
they took him out.
Q. Did they not telegraph you for fifty more additional police?
A. Did I not tell you half a dozen times that I knew nothing about
that--I received no dispatch--how often must I repeat that?
Q. Was it not received at your office?
A. I was told that they sent there for more men, and that they got
them.
Q. Did they get fifty more policemen that they called for?
A. No, sir. Wait a moment, and I will prove to you that at supper
time--after supper--they sent word from the outer depot to the inner
depot that they would not furnish transportation to the policemen that
went there--they had enough, and they did not want any more.
Q. You did not send them the fifty policemen?
A. I do not know anything at all about it. They got all they wanted.
Q. Now, in not getting them, they called upon the sheriff?
A. No, sir. I will prove to you they got all they wanted. They said
they wanted no more, and they would not furnish transportation to the
men at the Union depot; but if these men wanted to go they would have
to walk.
Q. They did not get the fifty policemen. You have stated they sent for
fifty policemen, and they did not get them?
A. I do not know that they sent for fifty policemen, but I have a moral
conviction they sent for more men. How many I do not know. It may have
been fifty. I have a moral conviction that more men were sent to them
than they wanted, for they said so. Whether it was fifty men, I do not
know. I do not think it was fifty.
Q. You were not at your office, and did not receive that dispatch
calling for fifty men?
A. I was not at the office from quarter to five in the afternoon until
eight in the evening. From eight in the evening I was there all night.
Q. I understand your position, Mr. McCarthy, to be this: that you may
be superseded by the sheriff of the county, but not by the military?
A. No, sir; that is not my position, by a long slap. My position is
that the military were sent here at the request of the sheriff--that
the sheriff took possession of the business, and that the police were
dismissed, and then I had nothing more to do with them. That is my
position.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. That is, when the sheriff takes possession that then there is no
further call on you or any further duty for you to perform--is that the
position?
A. Under the circumstances as they existed at that time.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Why, then, did you assume command on Saturday evening?
A. Because I had reason to believe from what I saw that outside of the
railroad property there was work to be done.
Q. It was not then for the purpose of protecting the railroad property
that you acted on Saturday?
A. My good conscience, didn't the railroad company and the sheriff have
one thousand men right on that ground, or thereabouts.
Q. It was not for that purpose, then, but it was for the purpose of
protecting the city you acted on Saturday?
A. Yes; outside of that.
Q. What time was the information made by Mr. Watt before you on which
the warrants were issued for these nine or ten men?
A. Sometime during Friday forenoon.
Q. Made by Mr. Watt?
A. I do not know. May be it was.
Q. Warrants were immediately issued, were they?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Placed in the hands of your policemen?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long were they kept by the policemen?
A. Until Saturday morning.
Q. And no arrests were made?
A. No arrests were made.
Q. And then what was done with them?
A. They came there and wanted to take the information away--the law
authorities--I think Mr. Housey was one of them. We would not give them
the information--would not let go of that. Then they wanted the names
of the men who were implicated in it for the purpose of getting out
bench warrants, and they got the names. We gave them to them.
Q. Why were these men not arrested on Friday?
A. Because a troubled state of feeling had been existing in the
community by calling out the troops, and I instructed the policemen to
be very cautious, and if they made any arrests, an arrest any time
before the meeting of the grand jury would be sufficient, simply for
the purposes of this information.
Q. Did you not understand these persons were the leaders in the
disturbances on Twenty-eighth street?
A. I would understand they were engaged in it.
Q. That was the charge contained in the affidavit, was it not?
A. No, no; it was not a charge. I think that the information was made
under an act of Assembly, passed within the last two or three years,
about people interfering with the running of trains. I think that was
it, though I am not quite sure.
Q. Would it not have been better to have made these arrests as soon as
possible, before the arrival of the military?
A. No, sir; I think, under the circumstances, it would have been a very
bad move to have made these arrests. I was conscious, at the time I
gave the warrants to the officer, that it was a dangerous thing, on
account of the public excitement that had been created by calling out
the troops, and I told him to be very cautious about what he would do,
and I was satisfied he would be cautious, as to rush pell-mell, right
up there, and snatch these men right out, would have created a
disturbance at once. At least, I thought so.
Q. On Saturday night, when you went out and ordered all the police you
could get, consistently, to the Twelfth ward, I understand you to say
that it was not for the purpose of protecting the railroad property,
but to protect the city particularly?
A. I conceived that the railroad property had eight hundred or nine
hundred--at least eight hundred men there, for that purpose.
Q. You took these policemen, you say, to arrest men that were carrying
off railroad property?
A. Presumed to be railroad property.
Q. Or carrying off plunder?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How many did they arrest?
A. I could not tell you. I suppose there may have been about a hundred.
Q. What was done with these men?
A. They were taken to the station-house, and Alderman Butler, I
believe, who was in charge--I was not in charge for a week; I had
something else to do--I believe they came to the conclusion that they
could not be convicted of larceny, from not being able to identify what
goods they had. All things were thrown together in the hurry of the
moment, and they could not identify them nor the goods, and I believe
they came to the conclusion that an action of larceny would not lie,
and it would be troublesome to prove it, and he fined them.
Q. How many of them did he fine?
A. Indeed, I cannot tell. I never looked to see.
Q. Did he discharge any of them?
A. That I do not know. I had too much to do, to look after them.
Q. Was any record made of it?
A. Oh! yes; they have their names down in the watch-house docket.
Q. You never examined the record?
A. No, sir; I never examined it because it was a trifling matter
compared with other things that had to be done, and I paid no attention
to it.
Q. Had you any intimation from any source prior to the appearance of
Mr. Watt on Thursday at your office of an outbreak among the railroad
employés?
A. No, sir; but on the contrary, I happened to know from the president
of the Trainmen's Union that when he was told that, eleven o'clock that
day, he disputed the accuracy of the statement. He knew nothing of it,
but when he was assured in such a way that he thought there must be
something in it, he left the corner of Eleventh and Liberty streets for
Twenty-eighth street, to know what the facts were. He himself did not
believe it.
Q. You had no reason at all to anticipate anything of the kind?
A. No; I never dreamed that there would be an outbreak such as there
was.
Q. That there would be a strike at all on the railroad?
A. Oh, no; had no idea of it at all. I very seldom come in contact with
railroad men.
Q. In the conversations that you had with the men who went out in the
Twelfth ward, did they give you any reasons for the outbreak and the
strike?
A. No, sir; never entered into a critical examination of the question
there at that time.