A. What was occurring at the moment. I think from all I could gather
from the railroad men, that they were averse to what took place.
Q. Had you noticed any influx of people in the city, prior to this
time--within a few days?
A. No, sir; I had not, but there was one thing struck me with surprise,
that I did not know the faces of vast numbers of people. I was born and
raised in Pittsburgh, and I know an immense number of faces. I almost
think I can tell a Pittsburgher when I see him, but on that day there
were vast numbers of people I could not recognize. I got into close
quarters with them twice. By the by, I have not told you that I came in
contact with them at the head of the platform of the Union depot, but,
like Doctor Donnelly's men, in about ten seconds I was placed _hors
du combat_. They invited me to take a little walk--one fellow struck
me. A good man in the crowd interfered, and told me they did not want
to hurt me, but if I stayed there I would have to take the consequence.
I looked around at Officer Jones, who went into the crowd with me, and
I saw him looking pretty black, and he made up his mind to the
situation, and he left. He came over to me, and says, "Mayor, you had
better get out of this." I was disposed to kick. I did not feel very
afraid of them. I am not a man of courage. He gave me a nudge, says he,
"Get out quick." And I thought I had better go. With that the mob
picked me up and carried me from the head of the platform and landed me
out in front of the depot, and Alderman O'Donnell and Dan Hall, and
four or five policemen then came up, and I was led into the Union
depot.
Q. What time was that?
A. I cannot tell the time--it was when the mob was coming down the
Pennsylvania railroad yard, smashing up cars and things.
Q. Some time Sunday?
A. I got a little angry, and lost my head. I did not care what I did,
and Jones and I, and two or three others, I do not know who they were,
went in.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. I would like to ask a few more questions in regard to the sheriff
and military superseding the mayor?
A. Never ending and always beginning. Do you expect to put me in the
hole, Mr. Yutzy?
Q. Not at all. I would like to know why you considered yourself
superseded by any other authorities here in the city, the disturbance
having commenced?
A. I have tried to impress that upon you half a dozen times.
Q. Were you informed, by either of those parties, that you were not
needed?
A. I have told you two or three times _no_, and I shall have to
continue answering it _no_ every time you ask me.
Q. Did you not consider it your duty to make an effort to suppress the
riot and disturbance after they had made an effort to do so?
A. After they had made an effort and abandoned it, I did make an
effort.
Q. During the time you were making that effort, did you not consider it
your duty also, as chief officer of the city, to suppress any riot or
disturbance?
A. I think I told you several times.
Q. Answer that question?
A. I say I have already told you several times, that they pursued a
course so diametrically opposed to anything I would have done or could
have approved of, and having a firm conviction that no persuasion of
mine could alter the determination of the authorities who had it in
charge, that I could not interfere.
Q. You made no effort, then, to disperse or suppress the riot?
A. No, sir.
Q. After they had made an effort?
A. After they had made an effort, I did.
Q. During the time they were making an effort?
A. No, sir.
Q. Made no effort?
A. No, sir.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. And not until after they had failed, in your judgment?
A. Yes, sir. What more evidence would you want than that everybody had
run away--they had left. I do not charge the soldiers with running
away--do not understand that. I meant among the men who said the
Philadelphia troops murdered the people there. I am not among those
men. I believe they were murdered, but the Philadelphia troops are not
responsible for it.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. During the time that the sheriff or the State authorities were
making an effort to suppress this riot and disperse the mob, was it not
your duty, just as much as if they had not been here, to preserve the
peace, and make every effort in your power to the same end?
A. I have already answered that question half a dozen times. I answered
it a moment ago.
Q. Will you please answer that, yes or no.
A. Under the circumstances, I do not think that I had anything to do
with it.
Q. I would like you to answer that question. It may not be so very
material, but I would like to have that question answered, yes or no?
A. I have answered it?
Q. Can you answer it, yes or no.
A. I have already answered it. Under the circumstances, I do not think
so.
Q. The sheriff and the military, or even the United States Government,
attempting to suppress a riot unless there was military law declared,
did you not consider it your duty to make every effort in your power to
preserve the peace and prevent any disturbance in your city?
A. I would consider it my duty to do so if there was nothing to
interfere with me.
Q. Was there anybody interfering with your duties by any manner of
means?
A. I have already said that I considered I was relieved by the sheriff
and the State authorities.
Q. Did they interfere with you?
A. It just comes down to this; that is my platform, and that is what I
believe, and you happen to think differently.
Q. I wish to ask you the question whether they interfered with you by
any manner of means in the performance of your duties?
A. They did not.
Q. And still you suspended your operations or your efforts to suppress
this riot and keep the peace?
A. Because these gentlemen superseded me and took possession.
Q. In what way did they supersede you?
A. By dismissing the police that they had in charge, the railroad men,
and by the sheriff going there and performing his duties as sheriff,
and by calling out the State troops.
Q. Who dismissed these police?
A. The railroad men.
Q. Are you subordinate to the railroad authorities?
A. No, sir; I am not subordinate to them, not by a long slap. There
cannot be two kings where I am one.
Q. Still you regarded the railroad company as superseding you when they
dismissed your police?
A. No, sir; I did not.
Q. Did they supersede you at any time--the railroad authorities?
A. Why, certainly they did.
Q. By calling upon the sheriff?
A. By the sheriff undertaking to order the crowd to disperse at
Twenty-eighth street, and then immediately coming to the conclusion
that the civil power had become exhausted, and then sending a dispatch
by Senator Scott calling for the troops, and the troops being ordered
out--that superseded me, suspended me. I went over that a dozen times.
I am on this stand doing the swearing, and I am swearing for myself.
Q. I would not ask you any question that I did not think was a proper
one?
A. I don't think that, but we differ.
Q. There appears to be a conflict of authority in this matter between
the city and the county and the State authorities?
A. Not a particle of conflict of authority. I took pretty good care
that there should be no conflict. When the county and the military and
the railroad authority undertook to follow a course which I would have
nothing to do with, that I could not approve of, that I believed would
end in disaster, as it did, I stepped aside and let them have their
way, because I could not control these men.
Q. We want to know where the responsibility should rest--which of those
authorities should have taken command?
A. You have a right to form your opinion from the evidence before you.
I have given my evidence, what I thought about the matter.
Q. For that reason I ask you the question whether you considered
yourself superseded by other authorities, and should refrain from
making any effort?
A. I have told you I thought so, and gave you my reasons for it.
Q. During the pillage and the carrying away of goods at the Union depot
and in that vicinity, from the railroad, did you see any of the
citizens carrying away any of those goods?
A. Oh, yes; there must have been citizens--they must have been
citizens--it was not the fellows who were stealing that there was any
danger from. It was the fellows standing around with their hands in
their pockets.
Q. Did you know anyone in particular who was carrying away goods there?
A. I did not.
Q. Did you see any of the policemen carrying away any goods?
A. I did not; and don't believe they did.
Q. Did you see any of them taking cigars or anything of that kind?
A. Yes; I know what you are coming at now; I had forgotten all about
it. We have not been going on chronology, we have been switching off. I
saw a number of police throwing what I supposed to be segars, in fact I
might say I know, to the mob. The circumstances were these.
Q. Thrown by the police to the mob?
A. O, yes; precisely that and nothing else. You will remember that I
said that I telegraphed to detain the policemen, and send them up there
on Sunday morning. I got up there pretty late, and the policemen were
waiting on me. I hadn't much confidence in any person we had, because I
knew that the retreat and dispersal of the soldiers had emboldened the
disorderly, and they thought when the soldiers would leave the mob,
that the citizens had no chance, and the community were demoralized. I
got about twenty policemen, I think, and I thought it would be a good
thing to put them to light work and put a little spirit in them. I took
them around and told them to go up the wall and drive those thieves
away. I didn't get on the wall, I walked down alongside the wall to
witness their operations. As soon as the police mounted the wall and
the thieves saw them--I kept down with the police the great body of
them; I followed on the street and they upon the wall, and the wall was
clear for a very few minutes, and I happened to turn my eye up, and I
saw a policeman with a bundle of those soft felt hats that are piled on
top of one another, and he was throwing them down to the crowd in the
street, and I rushed up for him, and shook my fist at him, and used
some choice Italian, and then he stopped, and after talking a little
string to him I turned, and down the line I saw a couple of policemen
jump into a car and throw things out--they were cigars--and they threw
things down to the crowd. I rushed down there and bellowed like a mad
bull at them, and they stopped finally, but the moral effect of their
previous conduct was gone, and the crowd mounted the hill like so many
rats, and that was the end of that business. The men engaged in that
were two lieutenants, and I am free to say there were not two better
men in the force, but they lost their heads; they were completely
surrounded by fire, and they thought those things would burn up, and as
they would be burned up they just thought they might mollify the
crowd--a very mistaken idea--by throwing these things to the crowd. It
was from no desire to help the mob, but they had ignored the moral
principle involved that they had no right to touch anything, except for
the sole and only purpose of preserving it for its owner, and no other
purpose. They had forgotten that part of their catechism.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. In other words, the police were demoralized as well as the citizens?
A. At that moment they were. I don't think these men would ever do a
thing of that kind again.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. What was done with those policemen for that act?
A. I dropped them. I could not do anything else.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Discharged them?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Are they on the force now?
A. That I can't say. I do not know anything about the present force?
Q. Did you discharge them permanently?
A. They left, certainly, and were never on again. They were on again
for some days afterwards, for I had too many things to attend to, to
attend to them just at once. I pitied the men, because I knew them to
be good men, and I am very confident they will never do so again. It
took the starch out of me. I was demoralized by it. There are some
things you haven't asked me questions about. There was some talk here
the other day about protection to the fire department.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. There has been some testimony that citizens, about the time they
were breaking into these gun stores, came and offered to be
sworn--state what you know about that?
A. That was by Follensbee. Mr. Follensbee came there and offered. He
came to the office very much demoralized.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Just state the fact whether he offered his services, and then
whether you accepted or not, and then give the reason why you didn't
accept him?
A. I don't know whether he offered his services or not. There were more
men, during these two or three hours that I was assigning these men to
duty--there were more men who came in there, in the capacity of
military strategists, than would be enough to run the United States and
Confederate army during the rebellion, and I was annoyed to death with
every man coming in there who had some plan. I could not get my wits
together. This Mr. Follensbee came there. I have no recollection
personally of what he said, but I do know that he was very sadly
demoralized with something stronger than I am going to take now. He is
a good gentleman, as honest a man as ever lived.
Q. You did not swear him in?
A. No.
Q. Was that the reason why you did not?
A. Oh, yes.
Q. Did any other gentlemen with him offer their services?
A. Not that I know of. There was so many people came in and talked
about so many things, and how this, that, and the other thing could be
done, that I thought of getting a stuffed club to beat them out with.
Q. Did you send any policemen to Mr. Bown's store?
A. Undoubtedly. I suppose there was a dozen there. They were
over-powered by the momentum of the mob, and Lieutenant Chalfant was
knocked down, as I was told by the policemen a few days afterwards,
when we began to gather up our wits. I was told that some of the
policemen that were there tried to keep the pavement clear, and took
out their pistols, and citizens who were there requested them to put
them up, and not use them--that they would be murdered.
Q. Just state what you know--what came under your own observation?
A. Nothing came under my observation there. You won't know how to probe
this thing, unless I told you what can be shown.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. I am inclined to think that anything in the police officers'
reports--the police officers reporting to you, in an official
capacity--would be testimony?
A. Now, about Follensbee. The city clerk was down in front of Mr.
Bown's, and there was not a very great many people. They had been
trying to keep the people moving. Mr. Follensbee was standing there,
and the city clerk appeared to go that way----
Q. We have had the city clerk's report of that, from himself, which is
much better evidence than coming from a second party. All we want to
know, is just what came under your observation, and what was officially
reported to you by your policemen?
A. I sent men there, and I know they went there.
Q. You say you sent about a dozen policemen there?
A. I suppose there must have been a dozen, and I know, from the report
of the police to me, that they endeavored to keep the crowd back, and
did keep the crowd back, and that one man in the crowd counted one,
two, three, four, and up to ten--they are no count, and the whole crowd
made a rush at them, and Lieutenant Chalfant was knocked down, and the
momentum of the crowd carried the crowd out of sight. They had thrown
stones at the heads of them, and broken the windows.
Q. You didn't make any effort to get any greater number of policemen to
send there?
A. We had to ... half a dozen places at the same time. We just done the
best we could, and possibly might have done better, if there had not
been so many strategists coming there to bother us.
Q. Did you send any policemen to protect the fire companies?
A. Why, yes, sir.
Q. Whom did you send?
A. I was there myself, with fifteen policemen.
Q. Whom did you offer assistance to?
A. Let me tell you.
Q. Just answer the question?
A. We can get to that better.
Q. Whom did you offer assistance to?
A. To the man in charge.
Q. Who was he?
A. I don't know what his name was.
Q. What street was it?
A. It was, as I think, at the corner of Twentieth and Liberty. You
can't understand this, unless you let me tell the story.
Q. At what time?
A. I can't give you any hour. I know nothing of time.
Q. You offered assistance to the man in charge. What was he doing?
A. He was throwing water on French's spring works. You better let me
tell the story. You are cutting it up.
Q. What did he say?
A. He says to me, says he, "I won't do it--I am not going to risk my
life--if you want to take charge of this thing you can do it."
Q. He was throwing water at that time without any molestation from the
mob?
A. Certainly; and the police was stationed across the street to protect
them. Whether they would have stood fire or not, I can't tell.
Q. What assistance did you offer him?
A. The police that were there within thirty feet of me.
Q. If he was not molested by the mob at that time, he wanted no further
assistance?
A. You won't let me tell this story straight. If you let me commence at
the beginning you will understand it.
Q. Did you offer assistance at any other time than the one you speak of
now?
A. I told you that I offered assistance on Saturday night, and it was
refused.
Q. To whom did you offer the assistance on Saturday night?
A. I sent Officer Coulson to the fire department to tell them to come
and aid the police.
Q. We have had Officer Coulson and his story?
A. On Sunday morning, when the fire had crossed Liberty street, I went
to hunt the chief of the fire department, and could not find him, to
concert measures with him. That is the time I talked about the water
arrangement. Then a man connected with the Pennsylvania railroad came
to me, and says he, "If I get an engine at the corner of Twentieth
street to throw water on the railroad cars will you have the police
force there to protect me?" Says I, "I will." I immediately went and I
gathered about fifteen policemen, as nigh as I can guess, and had them
at the corner of Twentieth street. I think it is at the lower end of
French's spring works. I had them there a very long time, and no
engine appeared. John Coyle, a member of the bar here, came along and
spoke to me, and I said to him, says I, "John"--I told him the
facts--"come along with me, I want to hunt this thing up," and we
went up to find the chief, and we didn't find him. We found
Commissioner Coates, the man that had a pistol at his head and lived
to tell the tale. He said he had an engine. I left Mr. Coyle and came
down. Coyle went about his business; and I saw an engine coming down
one of the cross-streets--Penn street--and I went over to see where
it was going, and it went away down town. I went back to where I had
the police stationed waiting for the engine to come. After a very
great delay, the engine came and attached to a fire plug; but instead
of throwing water upon the burning cars, opposite to this street
where we were, he commenced throwing upon French's spring works. Then
Mr. Houseman I think it is--the gentleman who had made the request of
me--I went to him and said something to him, and he came back to me
and said, "These men won't do anything. You come and see what you can
do." I went over to him, and the answer he made was he was not going
to risk his life, but if I wanted to take charge of it I could do so.
But I didn't do so. Then the police--they were few in number, and not
able to do anything--I just told them to go and do what they could.
Then I went down town, and knew the result of the citizens' meeting.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. You said you did not agree, nor could not agree with the plan
adopted by the sheriff and the troops, or the officers of the troops,
in charge of matters, and at the same time the directions you gave your
police was to be careful, and not excite the crowd, and not make these
arrests. Are we to infer from that, that your plan was that you must
not oppose force to them, you must handle them gingerly and tenderly.
Is that what we must infer?
A. No, sir; every occasion presents its own line of action.
Q. The troops and the sheriff were trying to oppose the crowd by force
and stop the riot, and you say you did not agree with their plan of
action?
A. I don't. I think that the military force is only to be used in case
of the very last resort.
Q. In ordering your policemen not to make these arrests, are we to
infer----
A. Infer and understand this, that in ordering these policemen to be
careful how they made arrests, it was after I had considered I had been
superseded, and I wanted them to make the arrests when they made them
in such a way as not to create any disturbance.
Q. Are we to infer from your evidence upon that point that your manner
of managing such a mob would be to give way to them, and not oppose
force to the crowd?
A. I have said nothing, I think, to indicate that.
Q. What would be your plan in such a case?
A. I would have policemen to do it. I don't think the policemen would
create such a truculent feeling as an arrest by the use of military.
Q. You think then that the police are the proper force to use on such
occasions?
A. Until you ascertain you can do nothing with them, until all other
means have failed, and then, and not till then, are the military to be
used.
Q. Did you attempt at any time on Sunday to gather your police force in
a body so as to have an organized force large enough to accomplish
something?
A. I could not get any force on Sunday large enough.
Q. You got fifteen--you say there was fifty or sixty policemen--did you
undertake to gather that body?
A. I did not say there was fifty or sixty policemen. I am talking now
about the night before.
Q. I think the question was asked you how many there was about there on
Sunday?
A. I could not tell how many were there. I know only a small body of
them could be got together, and then they began to collect the men who
had went home in the morning before we knew that the soldiers had been
withdrawn--they began to gather in before dark--then we had a pretty
good force, and then with such assistance as citizens gave, we broke
the back of the riot--we knocked them right and left.
Q. Hadn't whisky helped a good deal at that time to place them _hors
du combat_?
A. I don't know about it myself, I do not drink it.
Q. I did not ask you as a connoisseur.
A. I think it had the effect to make the crowd vicious. I thought so
when I was in their hands.
Q. This Sunday night and Monday morning was when you first began to
regain some control there?
A. We got control--from dark on Sunday evening we had control.
Q. The mob had kind of petered out then?
A. Yes, and they had been licked out by the police and citizens.
Q. Where had there been any set-to where the mob had been licked--at
what place?
A. At the Fort Wayne depot, at the intersection of Tenth and Liberty
street.
Q. What police had had the set-to with the crowd at the Fort Wayne
depot?
A. There was eight or ten policemen went there when the car was afire,
and they put that out, and they were assisted by citizens also.
Q. How large a crowd did they find to contend with?
A. I don't know, it was an accomplished fact. The mob began to break in
stores, and commenced at the corner opposite to Tenth on Liberty
street, and the police and the mob had the battle there.
Q. How many police were there engaged in that battle?
A. There was a considerable number.
Q. Do you know how large a crowd there was there?
A. I am told the streets are full.
Q. What kind of a crowd was it?
A. Breaking into stores.
Q. The same crowd that had been burning cars?
A. I don't know.
Q. What was it composed of--this crowd running about the streets?
A. They were composed of men and boys. We had another battle with them
at Seventeenth.
Q. This crowd that was plundering was easily dispersed at any time?
A. Easy. They were not people to be afraid of.
Q. Who were the people to be afraid of?
A. Those standing around doing nothing.
Q. Was there an apparent organization among them?
A. I don't know.
Q. Could you judge?
A. I don't know whether there was an organization; there appeared to be
a common feeling. I was astonished from the fact that I didn't know
them.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. They appeared to be strangers?
A. They were strangers to me, I did not recognize them.
Q. In your intimate acquaintance with the people, you would take them
to be people from elsewhere?
A. I thought I knew the people about Pittsburgh, but I didn't know
these. I don't want to swear that they were strangers. I don't know
that I know. I was recognized, and I thought I ought to recognize a
great many of them.
Q. Those that were engaged in the act of rioting and police?
A. I am speaking more especially of those who captured me in the
railroad yard, and carried me out in front of the depot.
By Mr. Engelbert:
Q. They did that systematically, did they?
A. Oh, yes; carried me right out.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Did you, at any time during the riots, employ your night force in
the day time?
A. Such of them as we could get. Understand this, my idea of this
matter was that the soldiers, having possession of the railroad
property, were cooped up for the night, and that when daylight would
appear they would go out into the open ground, and take possession of
things. My idea was, they went into this place to prevent being pushed
back during the night. The great body of the police force went off at
six o'clock in the morning. I, supposing that the police would have
nothing to do, except to do street duty under this excitement, and had
instructed the chief of police to call upon the discharged policemen,
supposing that he could get plenty of them, but that expectation was
not realized, and not expecting that the soldiers would leave the city
at the time they did, had given no orders to keep the night policemen
on duty that morning; but when I found that the soldiers had all
dispersed, I telegraphed down to the central station to detain such
policemen as were there--and there were some there--and they were
detained, and they were on duty all day.
Q. Did you make any effort to re-assemble the night police after you
ascertained they had left?
A. Could not do it.
Q. Did you make any effort?
A. Could not do it.
Q. Could not you find them?
A. You couldn't get a man to go after them--the great body of
them--until night would come. You would get them just as soon by
waiting until they came on duty.
Q. Didn't you have the address in your mind?
A. Yes; and knew where they lived. We had plenty to do without doing
that.
Q. Any more important duty to perform than to get these men to
assemble?
A. That would depend altogether upon what the man in charge thought. I
thought the most important duty was to have the police up there--all we
could get--and let them do what they could.
Q. Without calling on the night police?
A. If we had means of calling on the night force to gather them in, it
would have been done, but, to do so, we would have had to abandon
everything else for the time being. Possibly, that might have been as
well, though. When I went to the corner of Seventh and Grant streets, I
found the firemen playing there, and the police having charge of the
ropes--keeping the crowd away from them.
Q. Did you employ all your powers during these riots, regardless of any
other efforts adopted to subdue the riots, in preserving the peace?
A. What do you call during the riots?
Q. The time from Thursday until Sunday?
A. Because I didn't think there was any riot before five o'clock on
Saturday.
Mr. Lindsey: That question requires a direct answer--yes or no.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Did you exhaust all your powers during the riots, irrespective of
these other parties?
A. I say there was no riot until four or five o'clock in the morning,
when the soldiers charged bayonets on the crowd.
Q. Including all within the time from Thursday until Monday, did you
exhaust----
A. I knew of no riots until the soldiers charged bayonets on the
people. I have answered that question a dozen of times.
Q. Answer it yes or no?
A. I will not answer it yes or no. All my powers were exhausted in
preserving the peace so far as I thought I could exercise them. That is
the answer to that question.
Q. Have you any call--is there any call to assemble the police, by
telegraph or otherwise?
A. We have a police telegraph from each station-house. We send messages
on it every day.
Q. There is no particular call by which you assemble your police?
A. There is no alarm.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. I want to ask the mayor a question in connection with his answer to
this. He says he used all his powers in preserving the peace, so far as
he could exercise them. Was there anything to prevent you from
exercising your powers as mayor?
A. Yes; the ground had been occupied by the State military and the
sheriff, and occupied in a way that it was utterly impossible for me to
act with them.
Q. And it was the only thing that prevented you from exercising your
powers?
A. I will say that there was a party went down to the depot--the
Duquesne depot--Sunday afternoon, stating he was going to set it afire.
That man was arrested by the police, assisted by some citizens, and
taken to the lock-up.
Q. You know that there was an assemblage of men at or near
Twenty-eighth street during the day, on Friday, don't you?
A. I presume there was, or Mr. Watt would not have come down there and
asked for police?
Q. For the purpose of protecting trains going out?
A. No, sir; I didn't know that. I don't think I knew that.
Q. For what purpose were they assembled there, so far as you know?
A. I only knew about them from Mr. Watt, and what he told me, I have
forgotten now.
Q. You have forgotten what he told you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you take any measures to ascertain what the purpose of the
assemblage was?
A. I think Mr. Watt must have told me what it was, and I judge so. The
first thing I heard after the police went there, was that a man had
struck Mr. Watt.
Q. I want to know if you don't know that during the day on Friday, and
during the day Saturday, there was a large assemblage of men at or near
Twenty-eighth street?
A. I knew that by common report, and hearing the police talk.
Q. Was not that an unlawful assemblage of men?
A. It may have been an unlawful assemblage of men.
Q. Didn't you know it was an unlawful assemblage of men?
A. I don't know, I presume it would have been an unlawful assemblage. I
presume that they were there for an unlawful purpose.
Q. You did not take any pains to disperse that assemblage?
A. Have I not answered that question a dozen times?
Q. What is your answer? Did you take any measures to disperse that
assemblage?
A. I didn't for the reason that I have given you--for the reason I
repeated a dozen times to different other questions, in different
forms. There is a good deal more I would like to tell you.
Q. You say on Thursday you sent police officers there, and they got on
a train, and they attempted to run that train out?
A. And couldn't run it out.
Q. Why didn't they run it out?
A. Because the engineer stepped down and out.
Q. Why did he step down and out?
A. Because he wanted to.
Q. Was there any men taken by force?
A. Oh, no.
Q. Was there a crowd there at that time?
A. I suppose there were a great many people there. I have no doubt
there was.
Q. Don't you think it was an unlawful assemblage, and that it was your
duty, as mayor, to have gone there, and have dispersed that crowd?
A. The police were there preserving the peace. They were there and
preserved the peace to such an extent, that the police say that they
were on that train, and that train could go out. There was nothing to
hinder it, if the engineer had stuck to his post; but, instead of that,
he stepped off his engine, and left the police in charge. That is the
report of the police to me?
Q. Wasn't it your duty to disperse that crowd there, as mayor of the
city?
A. No; because I knew nothing of the details of that, at this time;
because Mr. Watt got all the police that he needed, and they got more
than they wanted--said they had more than they wanted, and they had the
direction of them there, and the presumption is that the police did
just what they wanted them to, and the only breach of the peace that
occurred there was that of which Mr. McCall was arrested for--striking
Mr. Watt--and taken to the station.
Q. Was not the train uncoupled? When they attempted to start that
train, didn't they rush on and uncouple the cars?
A. I guess you are talking about the trains they attempted to run early
in the morning, before the police came there. That is what I think. It
was on that occasion that Mr. Watt came down after the ten policemen.
Q. Didn't Mr. Watt tell you of the circumstances?
A. I suppose he did.
Q. Didn't you have knowledge then that there had been a riot, or, at
least, a disorderly crowd there, and wasn't it your duty then to
protect those people?
A. And for the purpose of doing that, Mr. Watt came and asked for a
certain number of policemen--for what he thought was sufficient--and
they were soon there?
Q. And still you allowed that crowd to remain there?
A. That is not a fair way to put it.
Q. I want to get at the reasons that actuated you?
A. I didn't know anything of the nature of that crowd. I knew nothing
more at the time than that Mr. Watt wanted ten men, and ten men was
sufficient to control it. That was sufficient. They were there, and
there was only one breach of the peace, and that man was arrested, and
when this train, between three and four o'clock, undertook to be run
out, it could have been run out.
Q. Did the crowd intimidate the engineer in any way, do you know?
A. I understood the police that he was not intimidated--that he could
have gone out with the train, if he thought proper. They were there to
protect him in so doing. They told me he could have gone out, if he had
chosen. I don't know who he is, anything about him. I guess it was the
last effort made to run a train out.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Did you consider at any time until the military arrived that the
crowd that assembled there was an illegal crowd?
A. Oh, no; I didn't think it amounted to shucks.
Q. You consider there was no riot or mob nor illegal assemblage at any
time before the military arrived?
A. I knew that there were men in a crowd.
Q. Answer that question now. You consider there was no illegal
assemblage, mob, or riot previous to the arrival of the military?
A. I think that in the ordinary acceptation of the word mob and riot,
there was no mob and riot previous to the military coming there.
Q. Or illegal assemblage of people?
A. I think any persons that go on the Pennsylvania Railroad Company's
ground, don't obey their lawful orders and proper orders, that it is an
unlawful assemblage.
Q. Was there any illegal assemblage?
A. I have no doubt there was.
Q. Were you aware of that?
A. I must have been aware. It could not have been otherwise.
Q. Did you make any efforts to disperse them?
A. Yes; I gave the Pennsylvania Railroad Company all the police they
asked for.
Q. Did you drive them off?
A. I don't think they were driven off, but the Pennsylvania railroad
got all the police they asked for.
Q. You didn't give them the officer they asked for?
A. In asking for me?
Q. Yes; you?
A. No; I was not going up to head ten policemen.
Q. You required them to pay the police also?
A. No, sir; you put your statement too broad. These policemen--we took
what policemen we could belonging to the city and filled up with the
others who were not in the pay of the city.
Q. And those others were paid?
A. I think there must have been about twenty-nine policemen outside of
such of the city folks as were considered.
Q. The extras were paid off by the Pennsylvania railroad?
A. Yes; they were paid by them.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. You didn't call on any of the night force to go at that time?
A. No, sir; we couldn't do that. Nothing but the most imperative
necessity would require that. We only had patrolmen to cover
twenty-seven square miles. At the riot on Saturday night every man was
called in from the first, second, fourth, seventh, eighth, and ninth
districts; they were left entirely unprotected.
At this point the committee adjourned until this afternoon, at two
o'clock.