Mr. LAWSON. The following morning.
Representative FORD. It was announced in the newspapers?
Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. It was Tuesday morning, isn't it the 19th.
Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; Tuesday morning.
Mr. STERN. Is this a normal amount of advance publicity for this kind
of motorcade, regarding the actual route?
Mr. LAWSON. Well, it depends on how much notice you have that the
President is going there. It was announced this morning that he is
taking a trip tomorrow on Appalachian poverty, so we sent agents out
this morning. Naturally even if they wanted to publicize the motorcade
route they wouldn't be able to do so in this instance. But on other
occasions it had been announced sooner than that or about as soon in
various areas; yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. Did you set up the areas at which the press would be located
at Love Field and at the Trade Mart?
Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; I did, with the approval of Mr. Hawkes from the
White House staff, when he made a trip a little bit later. Time was of
the essence. Sometimes we do it all when they do not send out someone
to represent the press office from the White House, and sometimes they
do it. In this case, because telephone lines, power lines, various
engineering data would have to be disseminated and fixed up, we had to
know where the press areas were going to be before Mr. Hawkes was able
to come.
So I told them that I would set it up in the belief that I knew what
they usually wanted from the White House press office, but that he
would have the power to overrule me, and I requested assistance of a
local TV technician as to the angles and what not that the cameramen
would like.
Mr. DULLES. May I ask one question there. Do you know whether any
consideration is now being given to withhold the announcement of the
actual route to be followed by the Presidential party until say the
morning that the trip is actually taken?
Mr. LAWSON. Does this go into the realm of what we were talking about
before as to what we are going to do in the future?
Mr. SMITH. It might. Do you suppose, sir, that that is one of the
things that----
Mr. DULLES. One has to do it in time so that those who want it could
get it, but it seems to me that say if the party was going to move here
about noon, now if the morning papers gave that that would give people
plenty of time to get to the positions they wanted, but wouldn't give a
prospective assassin very much time to prepare.
Mr. SMITH. Sir, I don't know what the answer to that question is, but
the question arises as to whether this isn't in that area where, you
know, we are sort of deferring because of the sensitive nature of it. I
don't really know what the answer is, and I don't know whether it is
sensitive or not. Apparently Mr. Lawson thinks that it might be.
Mr. LAWSON. No, just from your previous things, I can give you an
off-the-record answer and you can tell me if it is.
Representative FORD. Why don't we make the same arrangement on this as
we had on the previous. Why don't you state for the record what you
know and then we will have the same arrangement in this case as we had
in the other.
Mr. SMITH. Sir, I don't want to quibble but that was sort of an
after the fact arrangement in the sense that that it came out in the
testimony there after the fact. I was a little bit concerned about it.
I am not sure we would want to make this arrangement on questions and
then reserving on the handling of them, because that isn't completely
in accord with what I understand to be the present arrangement with the
Chief Justice.
Representative FORD. I suggest we do it this way then. Mr. Lawson now
shouldn't answer but I suggest that Mr. Stern in the questions that are
being prepared, for which answers will be given, that this question be
included.
Mr. DULLES. That is entirely satisfactory to me.
Mr. SMITH. I am sure you are aware we have no desire to withhold any
information whatsoever. It is just a question of procedure here.
Representative FORD. This question is among those that are to be asked
in this interrogatory. Then the issue can be raised at that time.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. STERN. Mr. Chairman, if you have questions to ask, or Mr. Dulles,
about the advance preparation up to the time of November 22, I think
this would be an appropriate time to cover it.
Representative FORD. Do you have any, Mr. Dulles?
Mr. DULLES. I don't think of any at the moment; no. It has been very
well covered.
Representative FORD. Mr. Lawson. I would like to clear up in my own
mind some details. You were notified November 4 that you had this
assignment for the Dallas trip.
Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. Who actually notified you?
Mr. LAWSON. Mr. Boring called me. He is assistant agent in charge of
the White House detail, one of two.
Representative FORD. That was November 4?
Mr. LAWSON. November 4; yes, sir.
Representative FORD. Do you recall the time of day?
Mr. LAWSON. I believe it was late in the afternoon.
Representative FORD. What did you do next after being notified?
Mr. LAWSON. He told me that there wouldn't be any information available
of any consequence until about the 8th. So I still had my regular
duties and I was working.
Representative FORD. What was the first thing you did officially in
reference to the Dallas trip?
Mr. LAWSON. I went to Mr. Behn's office and called to Mr. Kellerman on
the 8th of November, and got the information that they had up to that
time, the proposed itinerary for the Texas trip, the time my airplane
left, the name of some contacts and so forth, and then after that,
went to the Protective Research Section, picked up this paraphernalia,
called the Dallas office that I was coming, and so forth.
Mr. DULLES. Were you advised that this information should be kept
secret or is that just understood, when you were first given the
information about your assignments? That was kept entirely secret?
Mr. LAWSON. Well, I wasn't advised that it should be kept secret.
Mr. DULLES. But you never would give out this information.
Mr. LAWSON. No, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Until it is actually published.
Mr. LAWSON. That is right. I believe it was published before that
though, however, anyway.
Mr. DULLES. It was published that the President was going to Texas
before you went?
Mr. LAWSON. That is my recollection, but it is in the newspapers.
Mr. DULLES. Do you remember the date of that? Don't delay on this
account. Go right ahead.
Representative FORD. Approximately how many such trips had you handled
prior to this one?
Mr. LAWSON. I had assisted on some with a more experienced agent, and I
had had a few of my own responsibility with people assisting me. I had
assisted in Berlin.
Representative FORD. Will you speak a little louder please?
Mr. LAWSON. I had assisted in West Berlin in June. I had assisted
in Cincinnati on one of the congressional campaign trips in October
before they discontinued because of Cuba. I assisted in Albuquerque,
N. Mex., on one of his AEC trips. My responsibility, where I had the
responsibility myself, had been Cherry Point, N.C.; Billings, Mont.;
Little Rock, Ark.
The Billings one was in September of 1963, and the Little Rock stop
was in October, the month before the assassination. Those were my two
responsibilities. I assisted in San Diego. That was my first assist.
Then I have had other assists and responsibilities here in Washington,
fund-raising dinners or speeches, lunches.
Representative FORD. I gather then you had the principal responsibility
in five?
Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. Or thereabouts?
Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. In each of those cases was the procedure the same
as far as PRS is concerned?
Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. You would go to the PRS and get a list of the
names of individuals and this other equipment?
Mr. LAWSON. That is correct.
Representative FORD. Now in the five or thereabout times that you did
this in the past, what was your experience with PRS?
Mr. LAWSON. I was told in Buffalo, N.Y., of a couple individuals, a
couple of nuisance-type individuals more than actual threats. Also
told that there were a couple of individuals that came up after I had
left Washington on the Little Rock advance. Subsequent to the time
that I left, they notified the field office that things were under
investigation.
Representative FORD. But only in the one instance, Buffalo, were you
actually given the names of a threat, prior to your departure?
Mr. LAWSON. Yes; I believe that is so. The other ones were subsequent
to that time.
Representative FORD. And in the case of Little Rock you subsequently
received----
Mr. LAWSON. Yes.
Representative FORD. A name or names?
Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; and also in Buffalo there were some phone calls
to the office that there was a threat involved.
Representative FORD. In the case of Buffalo you had a name or two
before you went?
Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. But in the other cases where you had the
responsibility?
Mr. LAWSON. Nothing.
Representative FORD. The PRS gave you nothing?
Mr. LAWSON. That is right.
Representative FORD. Do you know from your own knowledge, conversation
with others who have similar responsibilities, whether PRS normally had
names to give to the agent in charge?
Mr. LAWSON. Yes; there have been occasions when that has happened, and
they are constantly sending over things in Washington, for example. If
we are just going out to the Sheraton for a dinner, you always call
up and say is there anything particular right now that we should know
about, a recent escapee or anything like that that we might not know
of yet. They put out lookout notices, send us a notification of people
who have lost their White House passes, etc.
Representative FORD. Now, when you actually went to Dallas, who in the
Secret Service was under your jurisdiction, or what individual did you
work with down there in the Secret Service?
Mr. LAWSON. I worked with Mr. Sorrels. He wouldn't really be under
my jurisdiction because he was the local agent in charge, and he had
various agents, also. On the day of the event his agents would be under
my jurisdiction, and also his, because he is normally their boss.
Representative FORD. Howlett; what is his responsibility?
Mr. LAWSON. He is an agent of the Dallas office.
Representative FORD. Responsible to Mr. Sorrels?
Mr. LAWSON. To Mr. Sorrels; yes, sir.
Representative FORD. You got to Dallas when?
Mr. LAWSON. The evening; Tuesday evening, the 12th.
Representative FORD. When did you make the decision to investigate this
group of extremists down there?
Mr. LAWSON. I heard that there were films available, I believe, on
Wednesday, or Thursday. I believe it was Wednesday.
Representative FORD. That would be November 13?
Mr. LAWSON. The 13th; yes, sir. And I kept it in mind so that I could
talk to the local office about that. I asked individuals in the local
office, Mr. Sorrels and also Special Agent Howlett, if they had any
knowledge, if they had done any informant-type work, if they had any
knowledge of anything that was going to go on that we might not know in
PRS, because PRS would only know of definite trips by the President.
But they might know of something else that might occur. And also at
another time I talked to Special Agent Howlett and asked him if he
would view the films of this.
Representative FORD. You arrived there on the 12th, Tuesday?
Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. You met with Sorrels when?
Mr. LAWSON. On Wednesday morning.
Representative FORD. Wednesday morning?
Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. Did you bring up, or did he bring up, the problem
of so-called extremist groups?
Mr. LAWSON. I believe I brought them up, but I am not sure I brought
them up that morning. It was sometime later.
Representative FORD. Sometime that day?
Mr. LAWSON. It was that day or the next day that we talked about it. We
talked about these extremist groups off and on, of course, all the time
that I was there.
Representative FORD. Did you limit it to so-called rightwing groups,
or did you have a broader view than that, about groups that might be a
problem on this trip?
Mr. LAWSON. I believe that I specifically talked about the rightwing
groups; yes.
Representative FORD. Did you ever have any responsibility for a trip to
New York at any time?
Mr. LAWSON. No; I did not. I just assisted in one, the World's Fair
opening yesterday, but at that time I had not.
Representative FORD. This would have to be hypothetical under the
circumstances, but if in the time prior to November 22 you had the
responsibility of a Presidential trip to a community where you knew
the Fair Play for Cuba Committee was active, would you have taken any
special interest in that group?
Mr. LAWSON. I don't know. If at that time I had ever heard that they
were particularly, might be any threat to the President, a particular
group, if I knew that there was a particular group that advocated the
killing of the President, yes. If it was just a political group of
one kind or another, no, I probably wouldn't unless I had definite
information.
Representative FORD. Did you have any evidence that the groups you
investigated in Dallas had any program or interest in killing the
President?
Mr. LAWSON. No; I did not.
Representative FORD. You had this investigation made of this group in
Dallas because of the Stevenson incident?
Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; I didn't have the investigation made, because I
don't think I would be in the position to have it made. Mr. Sorrels
or PRS or something like that could have. I asked, since we knew that
there were these individuals, and an incident had occurred in the past;
although no threat to the President was known, perhaps we had better at
least try to find out if they were going to do anything, which is what
I did.
Representative FORD. When you go on with responsibility to a particular
community, do you normally inquire of groups of one kind or another
that have a reputation for political activity of one sort or another?
Mr. LAWSON. Not for just political activity; no, sir.
Representative FORD. I meant political activity in the broader sense;
not one political party versus another, but political extremist groups.
Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; usually, if there is going to be any picketing, an
extremist group or something like that, it will come from the police
sources or another Federal source. They will tell us that they have
heard that certain individuals are going to hang signs from a window as
we go by, or demonstrate, or something like that.
Representative FORD. Did you ask the Dallas police or any other local
authorities if they knew of any individuals or groups that might be a
threat to the President?
Mr. LAWSON. I knew that Special Agent Howlett had been in contact with
them, both about the informants and going over to view the films. I did
not, except when I saw this one piece of literature, and asked them if
they knew anything about it.
Representative FORD. Did Special Agent Howlett report to you of
what contacts he had made with the Dallas police or other local
law-enforcement authorities on this point?
Mr. LAWSON. In generalities, yes, sir. He told me that he had seen an
informant outside of the city of Dallas, and that this informant had
been active in some of the movements; that he had quit because he was
afraid, but to his knowledge there was nothing going to occur.
Representative FORD. Do you when you have this responsibility rely on
somebody else to ask the local people, or do you ask the questions
yourself of any groups that they know of or any individuals that they
know of locally?
Mr. LAWSON. I believe it would depend on the circumstances. In this
case I knew that Special Agent Howlett was in contact with them. At no
time--you usually ask the police if they know of anything that is going
to occur, but, as I said, just regular political groups, unless I know
that they have anything to do with the President, I have never done so.
Mr. DULLES. Would that include the Fair Play for Cuba Committee or
Communist groups or extreme rightist groups?
Mr. LAWSON. It would have up until that time; yes, sir.
Representative FORD. Certainly the Fair Play for Cuba Committee was one
that took violent exception to this country's policies, and they were
active in a number of communities, including New York, as I recall. It
is my recollection that the President, prior to the assassination, had
been to New York at a time that this organization was active. What I am
trying to find out is, if the PRS doesn't provide you with information
about an individual or an organization, is it your responsibility to
actually make extra checks locally, based on your own knowledge or your
own experience?
Mr. LAWSON. Well, I believe it would be my responsibility if I knew of
any organization that did advocate the killing or the harming of the
President.
Representative FORD. There was no specific information that you had in
this case that the so-called rightwing extremist groups----
Mr. LAWSON. That is right.
Representative FORD. Had that in mind?
Mr. LAWSON. That is right; that is correct. It was also my
understanding that, if anything was known about some of these other
groups going to plan anything to embarrass the President or hurt
the President, we would be notified by the people whose jurisdiction
it is to look into those matters or who might have a little bit more
knowledge about them than the Secret Service.
Representative FORD. When you got to Dallas, did you personally check
with the local FBI office about any individuals or any groups?
Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; I did not. All the liaison either would be handled
from the local SAC's office or through Washington.
Representative FORD. That would be between some Secret Service
office----
Mr. LAWSON. Either Mr. Sorrel's office and the local FBI office or from
our office to the FBI headquarters in Washington.
Representative FORD. In the ordinary course of events that information
would be given to you?
Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. In this case there was none?
Mr. LAWSON. I did find out that the police had sent over a couple of
copies of these pamphlets, but that is the only information that I had
of any liaison locally between the two.
Mr. DULLES. Are you referring to Commission Exhibit No. 770?
Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; I am.
Mr. DULLES. Do you know what action was taken with respect to this
pamphlet by the Dallas police?
Mr. LAWSON. No; I do not, subsequent to that time.
Mr. DULLES. How long before the President's visit to Dallas was this
brought to your attention; do you remember?
Mr. LAWSON. Yes sir; Thursday afternoon.
Mr. DULLES. Thursday afternoon; Thursday before the Friday?
Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. In this preliminary report dated November 19,
which is Commission Exhibit 767, I notice there is no information in
here about this extra effort that was made down there over and above
the PRS.
Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. Is the format for this laid out in advance?
Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; it is.
Representative FORD. Do they give you an opportunity to add anything to
it if you want to or feel you should?
Mr. LAWSON. It could be; yes; I am sure it could.
Representative FORD. Was there any reason why you didn't indicate in
this preliminary report what you had done in this regard?
Mr. LAWSON. No; that belongs in our PRS section of the report. If this
had occurred in September or October, and this report as it is here
now, the final report had been sent in early, that would have been in
there.
Representative FORD. I don't understand that.
Mr. LAWSON. Approximately a month before the Dallas trip, we changed
the reports, if there was time, of course, on all these. In Washington,
D.C., for an on-the-record movement we have a report made up like this
final one, only it isn't called final. It is a survey report, and it
has everything in the introduction, PRS, and everything right in it,
and then a supplemental report. For our out-of-town trips they had a
preliminary survey report, and then a final survey report, so that
if the report had been done in September, let's say, that would have
been in it, because it is in the regular format under PRS. You put in
under the PRS section anything containing any untoward incident, any
information that you receive from PRS or anything that developed later.
Representative FORD. This report I have here, final survey report,
Commission Exhibit 768, does include that information?
Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; it does.
Representative FORD. Do you know whether or not Mr. Kellerman had this
preliminary report prior to his departure for Dallas?
Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; I prepared this Tuesday, late afternoon, and
Tuesday evening, the 19th, and made arrangements to have it flown by
airline to Washington, and then have an agent from the White House
detail pick it up from the airplane, which is normal procedure both on
the preliminary report, and when we use it to send the complete report
ahead of time.
Then I called to make sure that it arrived, which it had.
Representative FORD. This was prior to Mr. Kellerman's departure with
the President?
Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; it had to be done that early because they were
gone out of Washington the day before they got to me.
Representative FORD. Are your current regulations for preliminary
report different now than they were at this time?
Mr. LAWSON. I believe for out-of-town trips we have a preliminary
report and a final survey report.
Representative FORD. Is the current format any different now than it
was November 19?
Mr. LAWSON. I don't believe so. Again, there are things that you can
add here, certain stops; you might have a motorcade list and you might
not, if there isn't any motorcade.
Representative FORD. I believe that is all. Do you want to proceed?
Mr. DULLES. I have one or two questions that were brought up by your
own questions. Did you have any discussion with the Dallas police about
General Walker's activities?
Mr. LAWSON. No; I did not, but I knew that he was in this rightwing
group and that Special Agent Howlett was pursuing this.
Mr. DULLES. Was following its activities?
Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.