Mr. LAWSON. He was the local agent.
Mr. DULLES. Agent in Dallas. This morning when Agent Bouck testified,
he left with us some memoranda, Commission Exhibit 762, setting forth
10 cases which had been looked into by the Dallas office during the
period October 25, 1961 to October 30, 1963.
I note that a good many of these cases are marked closed, but I
wanted to ask whether the reports of these cases were brought to your
attention either before you left or after you got to Dallas, or are you
familiar with them?
Mr. LAWSON. I am not familiar with them, but if they are active cases,
people that----
Mr. DULLES. In some cases it is stated, "Investigation completed." This
particular case, CO2-34007, says:
"Investigation completed on December 12, 1963, by the Dallas office in
Texas."
That means that this case at least was closed after the assassination.
You don't recall that.
This is a report from a student at the university about a subject that
made derogatory remarks against the President. You don't recall that
case having been brought to your attention?
Mr. LAWSON. I know that Special Agent Howlett told me. I believe this
might be connected with one of those informant things outside of Dallas
that I was speaking about, but I don't know this--I know it was Texas.
Whether this is the same one or not I don't know. But I would only have
knowledge of something that was brought to their attention that the
President's life was threatened, and I was given no information that
such had occurred.
Mr. DULLES. And so you don't recall any of these 10 or 9 other cases
here? A good many of them are noted as closed. That situation would not
be brought to your attention?
Mr. LAWSON. No; they would not.
Mr. DULLES. Would not?
Mr. LAWSON. No.
Mr. DULLES. In some cases it is noted, "Subsequent activity none." It
is stated, "Periodic checkups were not deemed necessary. Prosecution
was declined."
This was the case of a remark made by a gentleman at a bridge party.
You don't recall that case?
Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; I wouldn't have any occasion to know what cases
have come into PRS.
Mr. DULLES. Even if they related to Dallas?
Mr. LAWSON. Only if they related to Dallas, and I have been told that
these individuals were in the active file, it was an open case, and
that we should be watchful of this particular individual, but I was
given none of this information.
Mr. DULLES. In your case when you left Washington you weren't given any
cases that you considered dangerous in the Dallas area?
Mr. LAWSON. No, sir.
Representative FORD. When they do give you the name and the case of an
individual such as in the instance of Buffalo, what do you get? What is
given to you, I mean?
Mr. LAWSON. You are given the name and the number of the case, and then
there is a file in Buffalo just like there is a file in Washington, and
you can review that file there, and depending on the circumstances you
would again have the person followed, or try something to keep him away
from the President.
Mr. DULLES. I see. You are simply given the name and the file number.
Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Of the individuals?
Mr. LAWSON. You might be given some other information, like what it
concerns, but I mean you wouldn't sit down and read the whole thing
because you could get that in the Buffalo office or wherever.
Mr. DULLES. What would have been your normal practice so far as you can
judge if you had been informed that a man, an American had defected
to the Soviet Union and had returned to the United States and was
living in Dallas and was working in the Texas School Book Depository,
would that have been sufficient cause alone to cause you to make an
investigation or report it to the Dallas police?
Mr. LAWSON. If I had had that information--again this is supposition.
Mr. DULLES. I realize that.
Mr. LAWSON. But I probably would have asked advice on it from either
the PRS section or the White House detail ahead of it; yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Supplementing a point that was raised earlier, I find that
President Kennedy's visit to Texas was reported in the Dallas Morning
News as early as September 26, 1963, and the pertinent sections of this
press report--it is headed, "Kennedy to Visit Texas November 21-22,"
and there is also included in the heading, "Dallas Included." The first
two paragraphs of this story reported from Jackson Hole, Wyo., that
area, where the President was then on a visit:
"White House sources told Dallas News exclusively Wednesday night that
President Kennedy will visit Texas November 21 and 22.
"The visit will embrace major cities of the State including Dallas."
That is just to check on the point of the date when it was first
published. So it was published sometime before you were notified of
your assignment.
Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; I was doing the Billings advance. He left
Billings to go to Jackson Hole, Wyo., and then returned the next
morning again to Billings.
Mr. DULLES. You don't recall having heard that though?
Mr. LAWSON. No.
Mr. DULLES. In connection with your work with the President's party on
that trip?
Mr. LAWSON. No.
Representative FORD. Will you proceed, Mr. Stern?
Mr. STERN. To conclude the advance work, Mr. Lawson, would you describe
the advance work for the Dallas visit as the same as or different from
typical advance preparations for a trip of this nature?
Mr. LAWSON. I don't know if that is too general, but I would say that
it was quite a typical trip.
I tried to do everything I could think of to make the advance run
smooth, and this trip work all right.
Mr. STERN. The length of time you spent doing the advance, the contacts
you had, the time spent by other people, this was typical of this kind
of trip?
Mr. LAWSON. Sometimes you go out earlier than other times. Actually
this was out just a little bit earlier than usual.
An average, if you have to give an average, I would say you are out
about 7 days ahead of time. But like I say, some fellows left this
morning for a trip tomorrow.
Mr. STERN. Now on the period up to November 22, as I said before, we
will rely substantially on what is in your memorandum. If there is
anything now that you would like to add or correct in the statements
you have made there, anything you would like to add to your testimony
so far today before this Commission, will you do so?
Mr. LAWSON. I can't recall any.
Mr. STERN. I would like to move then to the actual events of November
22. I show you first a two-page document marked for identification
Commission Exhibit 771. Can you identify that?
Mr. LAWSON. I can.
Mr. STERN. Will you tell us what it is and why it was prepared?
Mr. LAWSON. It was a statement prepared by me on request of inspectors
in the chief's office as to my knowledge of the event of the shooting
of President Kennedy itself, and I prepared this the day after I
returned from Dallas, which was the 23d of November.
Mr. STERN. I now show you a five-page memorandum marked for
identification Commission Exhibit 772. Could you identify that for us
and tell us how it was prepared?
Mr. LAWSON. This is a statement that I gave about as many of my
activities, official activities concerning the President's visit the
whole day of November 22, and until I returned to Washington early on
the morning of November 23, as I could.
Mr. STERN. Mr. Chairman, may these be admitted?
Representative FORD. They may be.
(The documents marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 771 and 772 for
identification were received in evidence.)
Mr. STERN. So that 772, the memorandum prepared on December 1 would
include everything that you put in your memorandum of November 23 which
was done immediately upon your return?
Mr. LAWSON. Yes.
Mr. STERN. Turning to your memorandum of December 1, Commission Exhibit
772, it mentions on page 1 discussion of weather conditions and the
decision whether or not to use the bubble-top on the Presidential
automobile. Could you expand on that for us and tell us what happened?
Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; it was quite rainy early in the morning of the
22d in Dallas, and I received a phone call from the Assistant Agent in
Charge Mr. Kellerman, who was in Fort Worth with the President, asking
about weather conditions in Dallas, and what they probably would be,
and discussing whether to use the bubble-top on the President's car or
not. I was told the bubble-top was to be on if it was raining, and it
was to be off if it was not raining.
Mr. STERN. And then what happened? Did the weather clear?
Mr. LAWSON. The weather cleared quite fast. I can't recall now. It was
approximately an hour or 45 minutes before the President was scheduled
to arrive, and we had purposely put off changing the top until the last
minute when we could find out what the weather was going to be.
But it cleared and the weather became quite sunny all of a sudden.
Also I received a phone call from Fort Worth from Agent Hill, who was
assigned to Mrs. Kennedy, asking what the weather was and whether the
top would be on or not. I suppose that was so he could let her know
whether she had to wear a hat or something because of the weather.
I told him that it looked like it was starting to clear, but we still
had not made up our minds whether to have the bubble-top on or off at
the point of his call. But I told him if it was raining it would be on,
and if it was clear it would be off.
Mr. STERN. Were you involved in the final decision respecting the
bubble-top?
Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; the weather was clear so I told them to have it
off.
Mr. STERN. Then from your memorandum you visited, early on the morning
of November 22, the Trade Mart?
Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. And checked the final arrangements there, returned to Love
Field, checked the final arrangements there?
Mr. LAWSON. Yes.
Mr. STERN. The President arrived. You might tell us a bit about the
reception and the President's greeting the crowd.
Mr. LAWSON. Yes. The press plane came in. It was the first plane in,
and some agents that were on the press plane that were coming in early
were sent to their respective posts at the Trade Mart.
The traveling press that comes with the President were shown the press
area, were shown where the plane would be, and so forth, told a little
bit about the arrangements there.
The transportation staff and people from the White House press office
were told a little bit more in detail about what would happen at Love
Field, and the motorcade, and the press arrangements down at the Trade
Mart.
Ordinarily you need to provide transportation to the function for the
Presidential Seal, the flags, heavy sound equipment that comes on the
press plane and all that, and it was arranged for station wagons and
trucks to take that.
But they told me upon arrival that they had sent these direct to Fort
Worth since it was so close and that we didn't need those. Shortly
after this, the Vice President's plane arrived, and I went out to greet
it with the agent from the Vice Presidential detail, and showing people
where to go if they wanted to get in their cars, and telling them where
the President's plane would be, and making myself useful to the people
coming off the Vice Presidential plane.
While it was stopping, the Presidential plane was landing and taxiing
over, so that they went practically directly from their plane, those
people who wanted to greet the Presidential plane, to the rear ramp,
where he would be arriving. The President's plane stopped and the
greeting committee and the Vice President and Mrs. Johnson and any of
those people on the plane that had wanted to greet the President, local
Congressmen, et cetera, were over at the President's rear ramp and then
I was at the rear ramp across from the greeting committee and the other
dignitaries when he arrived.
He went through the greeting committee. I was on his left, the opposite
side of the greeting committee, and the other dignitaries. He walked
toward the fence. At that time I made sure that the motorcade was all
ready to go, and the drivers were in their cars, and told people that
were in the motorcade to please get in their cars because as soon as
the President was ready, and we didn't know if that would be 1 minute
or 10, and as soon as he was in the car, why they would go.
And gave instructions for moving the press ropes out of the press area,
because of the tightness there. We had to move part of the press area
before our motorcade could drive by. And in general doing all of these
little last-minute things.
Then went over to the fence and went along with the President,
watching the crowd and talking to a few of the agents on some of their
responsibilities, and went to look to see if the lead cars and the
other police cars were about ready to go, and saw that the President
was not yet, so went back to him, and then got him to his car and ran
for my lead car and the motorcade proceeded from the airplane.
Mr. STERN. Is it typical that the advance agent rides in the lead car?
Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. Why is that?
Mr. LAWSON. I suppose for various reasons. No. 1, the Presidential
driver, although you might have given him a route or all that, he
wouldn't really be familiar probably with the streets and all that, and
this is the car that has the command police officials in it, and the
Secret Service agent that knows the most about the start.
So in any emergency situation the Presidential car will follow that
lead car if possible unless told otherwise. It is the best place for
an agent, and also he controls the motorcade speed, and so forth, from
there.
Mr. STERN. Was there anything unusual in the motorcade until you got to
Main and Houston?
Mr. LAWSON. Not unusual. There were crowds along the way, sometimes
heavier than others in about the spots that it was expected to be that
way.
Mr. STERN. What was your impression of the attitude of the crowd
generally?
Mr. LAWSON. It looked quite friendly, not as hopping and skipping as
much as some other places, but very friendly and sometimes people just
jumped up and down and screamed and yelled. This one seemed to be a
quite friendly group by and large.
On one occasion I noticed a sign, I can't recall what it is right
now, but it was an out-of-the-ordinary sign, a sign designed to catch
someone's attention, and I thought right then that probably it would
catch the President's attention if he was looking to the right-hand
side of the car, which he was, and he stopped there, which is not
unusual.
Sometimes he would stop for certain groups, certain types of people
at certain places unannounced, if there was something that caught his
fancy or caught his eye, and he did there. And of course the crowd
pressed around, and the other agents got off the followup car, got
around his car.
Mr. Kellerman got out. I was a little bit more ahead than I had been.
We back up, stopped the motor car, told everybody by radio what was
happening, the other police that we were stopped. Before I was out of
the car to give any assistance, why we were moving again.
Mr. STERN. Was that a built-up area with high buildings or were you
still in the suburbs?
Mr. LAWSON. No; that was a suburban-type of area, a shopping
center-type of area out away from the downtown area.
Mr. STERN. I think perhaps now you could tell us what you observed and
what transpired from the time your car turned into Houston Street off
of Main.
Mr. LAWSON. As I have said previously today, right around that corner I
gave this radio broadcast that we were 5 minutes away.
Mr. STERN. Was this while you were on Houston or had you turned?
Mr. LAWSON. We had turned the corner. We were either at the corner, I
believe we were just about at the corner when I asked the question if I
shouldn't give about a 5-minute signal now so we must have been around
the corner then when I actually finished broadcasting. It doesn't take
long.
Mr. STERN. Around the Houston-Elm corner?
Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; right in front of the Book Depository Building,
and then a little ways away from that probably by the time I had
finished broadcasting.
I noticed a few people along the right-hand side I can recall now, and
more people on the right-hand side than out in the center strip median
which is there, a grassy center strip. There weren't many people on the
left at all.
I recall thinking we are coming to an overpass now, so I glanced up to
see if it was clear, the way most of them had been, the way all of them
had been up until that time on the way downtown, and it was not. There
was a small group, between 5 and 10 that looked like workmen. I got the
impression, whether it was wrong or not I don't know, that they were
railroad workers. They had that type of dress on.
And I was looking for the officer who should have been there, had been
requested to be there, and I noticed him just a little bit later, that
he was there, and I made a kind of motion through the windshield trying
to get his attention to move the people from over our path the way it
should have been.
But to my knowledge I never got his attention, and I have said in one
of these statements that we were under the bridge, and I have said in
another one that we were just approaching this overpass when I heard
the shot. I really do not know which one is so, because it was so
close, but we were about at the bridge when I heard the first report.
Mr. STERN. Now just to finish up with the people on the overpass, were
they in a crowd together, or spread out?
Mr. LAWSON. They were spread out 1 or 2 deep, and as I say, between
5 and 10 of them to my knowledge, and I noticed the police officer
standing behind them about in the middle of the group.
Mr. STERN. And as far as you can remember now, in a position to observe
all of them? Were they in close enough a group?
Mr. LAWSON. Oh, yes; observed them from the back.
Mr. STERN. Observed them from the back. Did you notice any unusual
movement?
Mr. LAWSON. I did not.
Mr. STERN. Did you know whether the policeman saw your signal or
acknowledged it?
Mr. LAWSON. I didn't have any acknowledgment of it, and I don't know if
he saw the signal or not. At least the people didn't move, They still
stayed there in the middle.
Mr. STERN. Were you able to see the sides of the overpass, apart from
the area directly over the lane you were traveling in? Could you
observe more?
Mr. LAWSON. I am sure I could have, but I can only recall the people.
My immediate problem was right up there on the bridge, and I was
concentrating right there. I don't recall anything on either side of
the embankments.
Mr. STERN. Or any people?
Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; I do not recall any.
Mr. STERN. Just this group?
Mr. LAWSON. This group up on the bridge.
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question there. I think you testified just
now that your car was very close to the overpass.
Mr. LAWSON. I believe it was.
Mr. DULLES. And yet your car was only--well, how many feet ahead of the
President's car was your car at that time, roughly?
Mr. LAWSON. I am not sure because I wasn't looking back right at that
time at the President's car. I was looking at the bridge because of the
people up on the bridge.
Mr. DULLES. What was the normal distance?
Mr. LAWSON. I think it was a little further ahead than it had been in
the motorcade, because when I looked back we were further ahead.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. STERN. Then what happened?
Mr. LAWSON. I heard this very loud report which at first, flashing
through my mind did not say rifle shot to me. It sounded different than
a rifle shot. It sounded louder and more of a bang rather than a crack.
My first impression was firecracker or bomb or something like that. I
can recall spinning around and looking back, and seeing people over on
the grassy median area kind of running around and dropping down, which
would be this area in here.
Mr. DULLES. I might just add the witness is now referring to an aerial
photograph.
Mr. STERN. Indicating the area between Elm Street and Main Street, the
grassy area between the two streets.
Did you observe anything on the grass strip to the right of Elm Street?
Mr. LAWSON. No; I didn't, and it is my impression that my car was in
this direction, so that when I looked back, that is why I saw this
particular area here and not things over here that we had actually,
see, started this curve so that when I looked back I was looking this
way.
Mr. STERN. You were looking to the grass strip?
Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. In between Elm and Main and not to the grass strip across
Elm Street?
Mr. LAWSON. That is correct.
Mr. STERN. North of Elm Street.
Mr. DULLES. The curve you referred to is the curve to the right.
Mr. LAWSON. It curves to the right just as it starts at the underpass,
and continues to the right.
Representative FORD. Why did you look back? Is that the direction of
sound?
Mr. LAWSON. The direction of the sound and the direction of the
President.
Representative FORD. Are you sure that the sound you heard came from
the rear and not from the front?
Mr. LAWSON. I am positive that it came from the rear, and then I spun
back that way to see what had occurred back there.
Mr. DULLES. Could you tell at all whether the sound came from above you?
Mr. LAWSON. No; I could not. It was quite a general loud bang, an
echoing-type bang.
Representative FORD. At the time of the sound you were within 15 or 20
feet of the overpass approximately?
Mr. LAWSON. I was quite close to the overpass, yes, sir; but I don't
know exactly how close.
Representative FORD. You are sure that the sound didn't come from the
overpass?
Mr. LAWSON. I am in my own mind that it didn't. It came from behind
me. Then I heard two more sharp reports, the second two were closer
together than the first. There was one report, and a pause, then two
more reports closer together, two and three were closer together than
one and two.
Mr. STERN. What else did you observe when you looked back?
Representative FORD. May I ask a question here. Had you turned around
by the time the second and third shots had been fired?
Mr. LAWSON. Yes; I had.
Representative FORD. Did you get an impression from where they came?
Mr. LAWSON. Again just behind me is the only impression I got, but in
relation to behind me, where I do not know.
Representative FORD. Certainly not in front of you?
Mr. LAWSON. No.
Mr. STERN. You were in a closed car?
Mr. LAWSON. Yes; I was. The windows were open.
Mr. STERN. And you were on the right-hand side in the front?
Mr. LAWSON. The right-hand side; yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Could you see the President's car when you looked back?
Mr. LAWSON. Not that first time. As I looked back I looked right
straight and saw the grassy median. Then the second and third shots,
reports, I noticed the President's car back there, but I also noticed
right after the reports an agent standing up with an automatic weapon
in his hand, and the first thing that flashed through my mind, this was
the only weapon I had seen, was that he had fired because this was the
only weapon I had seen up to that time.
The events after that are a little bit jumbled, but I recall seeing
Agent Hill on the rear of the President's car receiving a radio message
that we should proceed to the nearest hospital. The nearest hospital
was a continuation of our route.
Mr. STERN. Did you know that or were you told that?
Mr. LAWSON. I knew that. Let me make a correction. I don't know if it
was the nearest hospital, but I knew that it would be the fastest one
that we could get to under the circumstances of where we were going
under this freeway.
Mr. STERN. Did you know as part of your preparation or did you merely
observe it in the arrangements you were making?
Mr. LAWSON. I had observed this from all the times I had passed the
hospital going over the route; yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. But it is not ordinarily a part of your advance work, or is
it, to locate hospitals?
Mr. LAWSON. This is not a part of our report, but quite often in my
own report in other times I have listed hospitals and so forth, bed
facilities in some of my other reports. I did not in this case, but I
had noted this hospital.
Mr. STERN. But it is something you pay attention to yourself?
Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; it is. Again we depend upon the police knowing
the city even better naturally than the advance agent to get us to a
hospital depending where we are or anything like that, that would occur.
Mr. DULLES. What was the lead car doing at this time?
Mr. LAWSON. The car that I was in, sir?
Mr. DULLES. I thought you were in the second car.
Mr. STERN. The pilot car.
Mr. DULLES. The pilot car, not the lead car.
Mr. LAWSON. The pilot car was up ahead of us, so appeared other things
I recall noting a police officer pulled up in a motorcycle alongside of
us, and mentioned that the President had been hit.
When the Presidential car leaped ahead, although there was quite a
distance, not quite a distance but there was some distance between the
two cars, they came up on us quite fast before we were actually able to
get in motion. They seemed to have a more rapid acceleration than we
did.
Mr. DULLES. Did they actually pass you?
Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; they never did. We stayed ahead of them. The route
was clear to the Trade Mart anyway, which was part of the route that we
used to get to the hospital.
And then from the Trade Mart on, the route was going to be policed
after we arrived at the Trade Mart, so that on the route from the Trade
Mart to the Parkland Hospital, which isn't very far, we had to do some
stopping of cars and holding our hands out the windows and blowing the
sirens and the horns to get through, but we made it in pretty good time.
I also asked Chief Curry to notify, to have the hospital notified that
we were on the way. I heard Chief Curry broadcast to some units to
converge on the area of the incident down by where it happened. I don't
recall how he phrased it, so that they would know to go to the Texas
Book Depository area. He told them to converge on a certain area, and
that is what it turned out to be.
When we arrived at the hospital, as our car pulled up and was still
moving, I jumped out and a couple of the motorcycle policemen that had
arrived there ahead of us, I asked them to keep any crowd back, any
press people back, etc., as I went running in the building.
I was looking for the stretchers that might be coming our way, and
didn't notice any at first until I looked quite a ways down the
corridor and saw two stretchers being pushed my way, and I ran down,
turned around, put one hand on each one and then as they pushed and I
pulled, we ran outside.
The stretchers had to be placed in tandem because of the ambulance area
and Governor Connally being ahead of President Kennedy was placed on
the first one and taken immediately away. President Kennedy was placed
on the second one by myself and some other individuals, and we went
into the emergency room area and were shown into a particular emergency
room.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. STERN. Mr. Lawson, your memorandum is quite complete on the events
from arrival at the hospital to your return to Love Field. If there is
anything you would like to add to that, please do so, or to anything
you have told us from the departure from Love Field to the arrival at
Parkland Hospital.
Mr. LAWSON. I can't recall anything.
Mr. STERN. I would like then to cover with you just a few points on
your opportunities to observe Lee Harvey Oswald following his arrest.
As I understand it, you returned to the Dallas Police Headquarters
with Chief Curry and other police officials after he was informed that
a suspect has been arrested, and arrived at the police headquarters
somewhere between 3:30 and 3:45; is that correct?
Mr. LAWSON. I believe the Presidential plane took off at 2:40
something, 2:47, so that I didn't leave Love Field until after that. It
was probably at least 10 minutes after that that we left.
We made certain that the agents had all arrived back from the various
places that they were to return to Washington, and that the White House
staff, none of them had been left any place, and that the Air Force II
was going to pick up any stragglers. The press was going to depart on a
press plane, and so forth, so it was probably a little after 3 o'clock
before we left.
I recall that it was very bad traffic in the downtown area. We were
bumper to bumper and didn't move a few times because apparently the
chief thought everybody was converging on the downtown area to see
this, plus all the people who had been there when it happened and just
stayed there. I arrived sometime quite late.
Mr. DULLES. You were still with Chief Curry?
Mr. LAWSON. I was. I was told by Chief Rowley rather than to come back
to remain in Dallas. It was quite late in the afternoon we arrived at
police headquarters.
Mr. STERN. What were the conditions at police headquarters when you
arrived?
Mr. LAWSON. Quite a bit was happening. I got the impression they had
squads of detectives doing all kinds of things, people working on the
Presidential assassination, people working on the Tippit killing. I
know that they had squads of men going out doing various things and
coming back, and it was quite hard just to keep abreast of things
that were breaking as to what each group was finding out as it was
happening, and quite often we were way behind.
Mr. STERN. What about the appearance of the press and television
reporters and cameramen at that time?
Mr. LAWSON. At least by 6 or 7 o'clock they were quite in evidence up
and down the corridors, cameras on the tripods, the sound equipment,
people with still cameras, motion picture-type hand cameras, all kinds
of people with tape recorders, and they were trying to interview
people, anybody that belonged in police headquarters that might know
anything about Oswald----
Mr. STERN. Can you estimate how many reporters?
Mr. LAWSON. There were quite a few. The corridors, up and down the
corridors towards the chief's office to the right of the elevator,
around the elevator landing and down the corridors to the left of
the elevator towards the homicide area were quite packed. You had to
literally fight your way through the people to get up and down the
corridor.
Representative FORD. Did you stay with Chief Curry most of the time?
Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; I was in various rooms and with various people for
the rest of the evening. I saw Chief Curry quite often that evening.
Mr. DULLES. Who was in command at that time of the Secret Service
detachment in giving the orders and coordinating the Secret Service men?
Mr. LAWSON. Sorrels. My advance as such, was over, and I was just
another Secret Service agent.
Mr. DULLES. He was in command?
Mr. LAWSON. Sorrels would be in command of any Secret Service activity.
Mr. DULLES. Subject of course to orders from Washington; I realize that.
Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; and we understood that Inspector Kelley, on one
of our frequent phone conversations with Washington, we were told
that Inspector Kelley, one of our inspectors, was being sent out to
coordinate the Secret Service investigation and to be the overall
commander of the Secret Service out there, and he did arrive at
approximately 11 o'clock that evening and was met by an agent.
Mr. DULLES. Does the Secret Service have a facility for commandeering,
getting airplanes when it needs them fast?
Mr. LAWSON. In certain instances, sir, I believe we use the Air Force
and the MATS people for advance trips, or if the Presidential airplanes
are full and they still need agents to go some place, why they will put
on another airplane for us. Sometimes we use Air Force transportation,
sometimes commercial.
Mr. DULLES. You have adequate facilities, have you, to get around in
time of emergency like this, quickly?
Mr. LAWSON. I wouldn't be in a position to answer that, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Chief Rowley would probably be the one.
Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. When did you first observe Lee Harvey Oswald, Mr. Lawson?
Mr. LAWSON. It was early in the evening of November 22. He had been in
police headquarters for a little while at least before I first saw him,
and they had already interrogated him as I understand it, and various
detectives, police officials, and Mr. Sorrels and a couple other agents
and myself saw Lee Harvey Oswald when he was brought in for Mr. Sorrels
to talk to at Mr. Sorrels' request.
Mr. STERN. Did you interrogate him?
Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. STERN. Did Mr. Sorrels handle the interrogation alone?
Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; that particular one.
Mr. STERN. What were the questions and answers as best you can recall?
Mr. LAWSON. He asked information as to name.
Mr. DULLES. Who is "he" now?
Mr. LAWSON. Mr. Sorrels in asking the questions already had some
background on Mr. Oswald before he started questioning Mr. Oswald. The
detectives or other individuals had told them what they knew up to
this point about Oswald, his name, that he had been out of the country
previous to this time to Russia, and a few other things. It was known
at the particular time, perhaps 6 or 7 o'clock.
Mr. STERN. I take it you had phoned his name to your headquarters in
Washington as soon as you knew Oswald's name?
Mr. LAWSON. I didn't. Perhaps Mr. Sorrels did.
Mr. STERN. Did your office advise you whether they knew anything about
Oswald or had found out anything about Oswald?
Mr. LAWSON. Not me personally.
Mr. STERN. That you know of?
Mr. LAWSON. Not me personally.
Mr. STERN. Were any other questions asked?
Mr. LAWSON. Yes; I recall Mr. Sorrels asking if he had been out--where
he had been living, where he had been employed over the last years, and
other information Mr. Sorrels already knew about.
Representative FORD. What was his attitude? What was the attitude of
Oswald during this period?
Mr. LAWSON. Oswald just answered the questions as asked to him. He
didn't volunteer any information. He sat there quite stoically, not
much of an expression on his face.
Mr. DULLES. Quite what?
Mr. LAWSON. Stoically.
Mr. DULLES. Stoical?
Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. Was he belligerent?
Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; he didn't seem to be belligerent at all.
Representative FORD. Did he resent the interrogation?
Mr. LAWSON. I didn't get the impression that it was a great resentment.
He just answered the questions as they were asked of him.
Mr. DULLES. Did he answer all the questions?
Mr. LAWSON. I believe he did.
Mr. DULLES. These were questions that Mr. Sorrels put to him?
Mr. LAWSON. Yes; of course, Mr. Sorrels, I don't believe at that time,
as I remember it, didn't ask him everything that we knew about him.
Representative FORD. Was there a transcript kept of this interrogation?
Mr. LAWSON. I don't know.
Mr. STERN. Do you recall any other questions that were asked?
Mr. LAWSON. I don't. At this time they were just general-type questions.
Mr. STERN. What was his physical condition?
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question there? The question wasn't asked
him at this time, at least while you were present, whether he was or
was not guilty of the attack on the President?
Mr. LAWSON. This I do not recall. During this I recall I was called out
for a phone call a couple of times. We were given information from Mr.
Max Phillips, who was in our PRS section, and I believe it was during
this that someone, an agent, was wanted on the phone, and I went out
and answered this, and they gave us some information on people that it
might have been--a case that wasn't Oswald.
Mr. STERN. What was his physical condition?
Mr. LAWSON. He was quite, well, unkempt looking, and I recall that he
had a few bruises on his face.
Mr. STERN. A few bruises?
Mr. LAWSON. I believe over an eye, a bruise or two. I can recall that
he had a bruise over an eye or on a cheekbone, or someplace on his
face, in looking back. And had a shirt and a pair of pants on. He
wasn't very tidy looking, a little unkempt in his appearance.
Mr. STERN. Was he handcuffed, do you recall?
Mr. LAWSON. I don't recall. I know I saw him handcuffed around police
headquarters quite a bit, but during this interrogation I don't
remember if he was handcuffed or not.
Representative FORD. How long did this interrogation go on?
Mr. LAWSON. This was not long.
Representative FORD. Five minutes?
Mr. LAWSON. Five to ten minutes at the most; yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. Then what happened? Did Mr. Sorrels finish?
Mr. DULLES. May I ask one other question there? Was there an
interrogation just conducted by Mr. Sorrels, or were there others in on
it, the police or the FBI?
Mr. LAWSON. I don't know if there were FBI agents there. There were
other plainclothesmen there, and a few uniformed officers.
Mr. DULLES. Mr. Sorrels conducted the investigation?
Mr. LAWSON. Mr. Sorrels was asking these particular questions,
general-type questions, and when he finished the police took him back
to another area.
Mr. STERN. When did you next see Oswald?
Mr. LAWSON. I recall seeing him in another room in homicide
headquarters with a couple of plainclothes people and their talking to
him. I saw him later in the evening, perhaps 9:30, 10 o'clock, when he
was brought down to a showup room, because we had information that a
gentleman had seen someone at a window, and so--
Mr. STERN. Do you know who that was, the witness?
Mr. LAWSON. I do not know; no, sir.
Mr. STERN. Could it have been someone named Brennan?
Mr. LAWSON. The name doesn't mean anything to me. Mr. Sorrels had sent
an agent out to bring him down to police headquarters to talk to him,
and he informed us he had seen someone in the window, but he had also
seen Lee Oswald on television in the meantime, and he didn't know of
how much value he would be.