Mr. LAWSON. On a moving route.
Mr. STERN. It is not a question of your instructions? You could if you
wanted to, I take it? It is just a matter of your discretion and your
training, is that correct?
Mr. LAWSON. I don't believe it is discretion. It is just that to my
knowledge only inaugurations or when a foreign president or king
comes to Washington, like that where it is a motorcade route known
practically for years in advance of how you are going to go do we
check, start out with enough men, enough time ahead of time to check
the whole route up to that time.
Mr. DULLES. Is there any practice of going to the superintendent
of a building and putting any responsibility on him to see that
strangers don't come into the building at that time, or assuming any
responsibility at all with respect to the inmates of the building? I
don't know what the practices are.
Mr. LAWSON. As I stated, sir, there was for inaugurations here in
Washington--we have done building surveys of buildings that overlook
the White House, that overlook the grounds, that overlook areas where
the President goes quite often or where he might be out or something
like that. Yes, sir; we keep those quite up to date. Out on a trip away
from Washington, I have never requested building superintendents to do
this. This was not the usual practice.
Mr. SMITH. May I ask a question there, sir. Is any of that information
that you just gave the type of thing that is not supposed to be known
publicly? I just don't know how necessary this is to the record, I mean
about checking the buildings around the White House and so on. Is there
anything about that that is sensitive?
Mr. LAWSON. I would assume that most of the people thought that we did.
Representative FORD. I think that is the general impression.
Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. SMITH. I can check on that. If there is something in there I might
want to come back on.
Representative FORD. I think as far as we are concerned if you do check
on it and find that it is something that ought to be left off the
record we could certainly do so.
Mr. DULLES. It might be declassified as a whole or lower the
classification, so I think it is well to put in the record what you
have said, that this part of the record should be reviewed by the
Secret Service, and if it is a security matter I think they ought to
raise it. I don't think we want to ever disclose anything that the
responsible agency thinks would imperil the life of any President.
Mr. SMITH. I have in mind what he said and I will check on it right
away. Unless I come back and make some point about it, why you can rest
assured that there will be no problem.
Representative FORD. Will you call the attention of the Commission to
what you find out, whether it should or should not be in the record?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, I will. May I tell Mr. Stern?
Representative FORD. Surely.
Mr. STERN. Were you aware of a suggestion that a vehicle with
representatives of the Dallas homicide squad be in the motorcade, I
believes behind the Vice President's car, a decision that was changed
just before November 22?
Can you tell us anything about that?
Mr. LAWSON. I believe I recall some mention of them asking--I don't
remember if they asked if there should be a car or not but I believe
there was some mention that there be a car, that they could have a car
in the back there. This was not usual procedure. In New York it is, and
on foreign trips it is.
Mr. DULLES. I understood that car was to be between the lead car I
think and the President's car, was it not, or is it between--no,
between the lead car and the President's car.
Mr. STERN. I haven't yet seen the transcript of yesterday's session,
sir, and I am not quite sure.
Representative FORD. My recollection is that it was to follow the
President's car, either behind the followup car or behind the Vice
President's car.
Mr. DULLES. We can check that. It is somewhere in there. I have a
feeling it was ahead of the President's car but I may be wrong.
Mr. STERN. I understand we have been advised that at one point there
was such an arrangement and that this was changed, and that Captain
Fritz, the head of the Homicide Division, who was to ride in that car,
went instead at someone's request to the Trade Mart where he was to
participate in security at the speaker's table. Do you know anything
about that?
Mr. LAWSON. I remember it being mentioned. Whether it was a request or
whether they had already laid it on I do not know, but I do remember it
being mentioned that they could have a car if it was so desired.
Mr. STERN. If they desired?
Mr. LAWSON. I don't recall if it was that they would put it in if we
wanted it or if they said that they definitely would put it in or what.
But it was mentioned, and I hadn't thought of this since. That is why
I am a little hazy on it. But I don't know even who cancelled it,
whether they did or whether we had just said well it is not the normal
procedure so that they did. But as far as Captain Fritz going to the
Trade Mart, I don't know anything about that.
Mr. STERN. But you did say, I take it, it is normal procedure in New
York?
Mr. LAWSON. In New York, New York has a special squad of people. One
of their main functions is protection of foreign dignitaries when
they come to visit the U.N. or for any other reason. These people are
used----
Mr. DULLES. Do we give more protection to foreign dignitaries than we
do to our own Chief of State?
Mr. LAWSON. Is that a question for me?
Mr. DULLES. That is a question.
Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; I don't believe we do. I don't believe the
security, the advance security arrangements, are quite as stringent.
Mr. STERN. This New York procedure is something you have worked out
with the New York authorities?
Mr. LAWSON. I am not aware of the policy arrangements that were made.
I do know that there is a detective car used in New York quite often
filled with this special detail of men.
Mr. STERN. Do they have a special responsibility in the motorcade?
Mr. LAWSON. They act as Secret Service agents act in the motorcade.
They help out if there is a stop and we need extra men and so forth.
But I am not aware of why they are there. It wasn't my decision that
they be there.
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question right there. Whose duty is it,
whose responsibility is it to decide how many of these cars will be in
the motorcade, how many protective cars let me say? I am not speaking
of cars for dignitaries or press and so forth, but how many protective
cars are in a motorcade? Does the Secret Service decide that or do
the local police decide it to some extent or do you decide it in
consultation?
Mr. LAWSON. We have our usual motorcade, and usually it is in
consultation. They take our recommendations quite frankly.
Mr. DULLES. Have you been giving any consideration to reviewing that
procedure to see whether the existing procedure is the best from the
protective angle?
Have you any suggestions to give us on that?
Mr. LAWSON. I believe that the chief's office is, but I am not in a
position to say what they are going to do.
Mr. DULLES. I think it would be interesting if that was being done.
Maybe it should be done, just to have a good look at it. If you could
advise us as to whether that is under consideration, it might be
helpful.
Representative FORD. I think it was my understanding that the Treasury
Department is making a review of this whole setup, are they not?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, I understand so. I understand that we have discussed
with the Chief Justice an arrangement, sort of a question and answer
thing to begin with on this because of the sensitive nature of this
information, to see if adequate information for your purposes can be
developed that way, and then at that point or at some point in the
future it will be decided how this question of the review and new
procedures will be handled. That is my understanding of it.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. SMITH. I am Fred B. Smith, Deputy General Counsel of the Treasury
Department.
Representative FORD. Will you stand and be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give is the truth,
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
Mr. SMITH. I do.
Mr. DULLES. I wonder if the witness would just repeat.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. STERN. On the record.
Representative FORD. Would you repeat what you indicated a moment ago,
Mr. Smith?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; I have been informed that an arrangement was
worked out with the Chief Justice with respect to the question of
improving procedures for the protection of the President that certain
information would be provided in the form of questions and answers,
and that after that procedure had been fulfilled, consideration would
be given as to such questions as the necessity of further testimony on
such questions and appropriate security arrangements with respect to
such information.
This is on hearsay. I haven't been involved in that myself. I would
like to ask Mr. Stern if that is in accordance with his understanding.
Mr. STERN. It is my understanding.
Mr. DULLES. If it is appropriate I suggest that maybe this question of
the number of protective cars in a motorcade of this nature might be
one of the questions you would be willing to consider, or whoever is
considering this matter would be willing to include among the subjects
of consideration.
Representative FORD. Will you proceed, Mr. Stern.
Mr. STERN. I would like to finish on this special New York practice
with you, Mr. Lawson. If an incident were to occur during a motorcade
in New York, is it your understanding that the responsibility of these
New York officials, detectives, would be to investigate the incident or
to stay with the motorcade as the Secret Service would?
Mr. LAWSON. I am afraid I couldn't answer that. I don't know.
Mr. STERN. Is there something special about the New York circumstances
that makes it desirable to have these additional detectives that you
don't ordinarily have?
Mr. LAWSON. Again I don't know. I conceive myself personally--where we
go through quite often--I believe there are more people in the State of
New York than there are in Billings, Mont., and you might have more of
a chance of something occurring in New York. But again I don't know
why it is in New York and not usual in other places.
Mr. STERN. Was the organization of the motorcade in Dallas typical,
apart from New York?
Mr. LAWSON. Yes. Quite typical.
Mr. STERN. Would it be the same in Billings, Mont., or would you have
additional strength in the motorcade in Dallas?
Mr. LAWSON. As far as escorting people, there were more people in
Dallas.
Mr. STERN. More celebrities?
Mr. LAWSON. No; by escorting people I meant motorcycles or something
like that. Again it depends on where you are, even if they have
motorcycles or how many they have. But the makeup of the motorcade
vehicles itself, again depending on who is coming and how many cars
you have is pretty generally the same. A pilot car, a lead car, the
President's car, motorcycles if you have them, some motorcycles if you
have them along the side of the motorcade to help keep it intact or if
it gets split up as it has on occasion to be able to catch them up and
rear vehicles to keep them from passing the motorcade, et cetera.
Mr. STERN. And the one Presidential followup car.
Mr. LAWSON. And the Secret Service followup car; yes, sir. This was my
first movement with the President and the Vice President all at the
same time. That was quite out of the ordinary.
Mr. STERN. And there you added a Vice-Presidential followup car?
Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. Performing the same function as the Presidential followup?
Mr. LAWSON. That is correct.
Mr. STERN. But apart from the motorcycles, I take it if you had been in
Billings, Mont., the organization of the motorcade would have been the
same; is that correct?
Mr. LAWSON. Just about the same; yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. I would like to touch briefly on the selection of the Trade
Mart and the security measures there, having in mind that your three
memorandums cover this in great detail. If you could just highlight
and indicate if in any respect your memorandums are inaccurate or
incomplete. The record will rely primarily on your memorandums.
Mr. LAWSON. I don't know of any incorrectness in it. There might be.
Mr. STERN. Or any detail that you would want to add?
Mr. LAWSON. No; I can't. If you have some specific questions.
Mr. STERN. Why don't you just summarize then how the Trade Mart was
selected, your participation in it, the consideration of alternatives,
the decision ultimately to use the Trade Mart, whether you had any
particular preference between the Trade Mart and the other building
that was considered. Take that part of it first.
Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir. The morning after we arrived in Dallas, late in
the morning, we, Mr. Sorrels and Mr. Puterbaugh and myself and another
agent from Dallas, Agent Stewart, went to Mr. Cullum's office who is
the president of the Dallas Chamber of Commerce, a local businessman
who was acting as subcommittee chairman I guess for the local host
committee.
Mr. STERN. I don't think we need this much detail because we have your
memorandum. If you could just tell us in general terms where you went
and the considerations.
Mr. LAWSON. Some of us went to Mr. Cullum's office and after talking
with him there for a while we went to the Trade Mart, met with
representatives of the Trade Mart, the general manager of the Trade
Mart, and were shown generally around the building, told how they
usually handled luncheons or dinners or dances that are held there.
Mr. STERN. Were there particular security problems that the Trade Mart
presented?
Mr. LAWSON. There were balconies there and also it was a building that
would be used by other people that day. However, this is somewhat good
because it wasn't exactly a public building where anyone could wander
in. The lessees of the showrooms there or their customers have to be
checked in. You either have to be a lessee or a bona fide customer of
a showroom in order to even get in the building. They have kind of a
semisecurity of their own that way. So it was good in that respect.
There were hanging bridges and balconies, as I have said, side
corridors and what not. After we left there, we went to the Women's
Building at the fairgrounds, to look that over, and in this particular
case the food would have had to have been brought in because there
isn't any kitchen there, which was a plus at the Trade Mart. They had
a regular cafeteria there and a catering service, which the Women's
Building didn't have. The Women's Building is on one floor, quite low
ceilinged, and the press coverage that is usually quite in evidence
when the President is anywhere, both from the traveling press with him
and the local press would have required their usual press coverage, and
it would not have been as good in the Women's Building, because of the
low ceilings.
They usually like to be up at least as high as the President or higher,
1, 2, or 3 feet. So we could put them in a balcony at the Trade Mart
but we could not do so, at least get them any higher because of the
low roof at the Women's Building. There were numerous columns in the
Women's Building that would have blocked everybody's view of the people
at the head dinner table, guests, and the guests there. So there were
pluses and minuses for both buildings, and I so informed people in
Washington and Mr. Puterbaugh informed people in Washington also.
Representative FORD. Who made the decision as to the Trade Mart or the
Women's Building at the fairgrounds?
Mr. LAWSON. That was made in Washington, sir.
Representative FORD. By whom, do you know?
Mr. LAWSON. I am assuming by the White House. I know that Mr.
Puterbaugh was in contact with the National Democratic Headquarters
people, and they were in contact with the White House and with the
various groups down in Texas, the Governor's office as well. When the
decision was finally made, we were told that it had been made but not
to tell anyone yet because the announcement would come probably from
the Governor's office.
Representative FORD. Do you make a report in writing in this kind of
a situation, the relative advantages and disadvantages of the two
buildings?
Mr. LAWSON. No, sir.
Representative FORD. From a security point of view?
Mr. LAWSON. No, sir.
Representative FORD. How do the people in Washington make the decisions
then?
Mr. LAWSON. Mr. Puterbaugh told the people he was in contact with and I
told Mr. Behn's office what I saw.
Mr. STERN. Who is Mr. Behn?
Mr. LAWSON. Mr. Behn is the agent in charge of the White House detail.
What I saw in both buildings. As I say the decision was made back here
in Washington.
Representative FORD. You summarized your views on this kind of a
situation to Mr. Behn?
Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. Who is your superior. By telephone, not in writing?
Mr. LAWSON. No, sir.
Representative FORD. Is this the case in all instances?
Mr. LAWSON. Well, it usually doesn't happen. Usually I know when you
are going some place if the function is to be at the Statler Hotel or
something like that.
Representative FORD. Do you know whether or not Mr. Behn made any
recommendations on this?
Mr. LAWSON. I have no idea.
Representative FORD. You gave him your observations and your
recommendations?
Mr. LAWSON. I don't know if I gave it to him. I gave his office. Now
there were at that time two assistants.
Representative FORD. Did you make a recommendation one over the other?
Mr. LAWSON. No; I did not. I said that I was sure we could effectively
handle both situations. Again the motorcade was to be taken into
consideration also. If you went to the Trade Mart you would have
certain ways to go and if you went to the Women's Building you would
have certain ways to go. And so they had to decide, someone had
to decide whether they wanted the Trade Mart or certain motorcade
specifications also, in the 45 minute time lapse.
Mr. STERN. On the basis of your experience, if you had had a strong
preference from a security point of view for one building over the
other do you think that would have been followed in this case?
Mr. LAWSON. I could have only told them what I thought, and how much
weight it would have had I don't know.
Mr. STERN. Can you tell us roughly the total number of police,
sheriff's office officials, and Secret Service agents that were engaged
in protecting the President in Dallas and break them down if you can as
between people at the Trade Mart, people on the motorcade route, people
at Love Field?
Mr. LAWSON. I can give you what I was told was going to--that the
police were going to provide but I won't be able to tell you exactly
what they did provide, and also inform you that I was told that certain
police were going to be shifted from one spot to another. I understood
that as we went by a certain part of the motorcade some of those police
then would be shifted perhaps over to the motorcade route on the way
back in the intervening 1-1/2 or 2 hours that would still elapse. And I
have that in my report if I can turn to it.
Mr. STERN. Yes; why don't you tell us in total numbers at each location.
Mr. LAWSON. But again I cannot tell you if these police figures, being
the ones that they gave me, show that these are the same amount of men
that were shifted or if these are separate men, because they were going
to use part on the motorcade and shift them to another spot.
Now, whether that would double it or what I do not know. At the Trade
Mart 108, and I believe this includes out in the parking lots and on
there. That doesn't mean they were inside the Trade Mart. Along the
Route 90. And escorts 20. Love Field 55, cruising 100.
Mr. STERN. Cruising?
Mr. LAWSON. Chief Curry said that naturally they have the rest of the
city to protect and we can't go in and take every policeman that they
have so that someone knows that all the police are going to be involved
and it would be easier to commit certain crimes. But in addition to his
regular police coverage of police cars throughout the city, there were
also going to be some other police cars fairly close to our motorcade
area, so that they could be called in if they had to be.
Mr. STERN. I see.
Mr. LAWSON. Detectives, 40; department of public safety uniformed, 40;
rangers, 5; plainclothes, 16; Dallas County Sheriff Department, 14;
fire department, 26; the White House detail agents, 20; agents from the
Vice President's detail, 4; agents from the Dallas office, 4.
Mr. STERN. So there were 28 Secret Service agents involved?
Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. At the various locations. Do you know whether the Dallas
police who were used were full-time policemen or were auxiliary
policemen?
Mr. LAWSON. I do not know.
Mr. DULLES. Do you happen to know the circumstances under which there
were some certain changes made as to the location of the motorcycle
escort that went close to the President's car?
Mr. LAWSON. I know that their position varied, depending on the crowds.
Mr. DULLES. No, I mean apart from that, apart from the crowd situation
do you recall that any orders were given by or on behalf of the
President with regard to the location of those motorcycles that were
particularly attached to his car?
Mr. LAWSON. Not specifically at this instance orders from him. Just
what I know to be the case from other advances, that unless it is
necessary, it was my understanding that he did not like a lot of
motorcycles surrounding the car. That is why we had four just back
of the President's car, so that they could come up and intercept
anyone running out from the sides easily, or we could call the other
motorcycles back to him if we had to.
But if there are a lot of motorcycles around the President's car, I
know for a fact that he can't hear the people that are with him in
the car talking back and forth, and there were other considerations I
believe why he did not want them completely surrounding his car.
Mr. STERN. Can you summarize for us briefly the security arrangements
at Love Field?
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question about the car before we get to
Love Field. There has been testimony here that the back seat, the
seat in which the President and Mrs. Kennedy had sat, could be raised
or lowered I believe by the President himself, could be raised so he
could get a better view of the surrounding people, and then it could be
lowered and put in a normal position. Do you know anything about that
or how that mechanism worked and who worked it?
Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; I am not familiar with his car except for the fact
that I know that you can raise or lower the seat. Now whether that
is done by him or in the front seat, we do have people that would be
competent to tell you that, however.
Mr. DULLES. You don't know whether that seat was raised at this
particular time?
Mr. LAWSON. No, sir.