The testimony of Paul Roderick Gregory was taken at 4 p.m., on March
31, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler,
assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you rise and I will swear you as a witness?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. GREGORY. I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. I would like to advise you that my name is Wesley
J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's
Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. I have
been authorized to take your deposition by the Commission pursuant to
authority granted to it by Executive Order 11130, dated November 29,
1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.
I understand that Mr. Rankin wrote you a letter either last week or the
week before last, with respect to your appearance to give testimony.
I believe that he included a copy of the Executive order and the
Resolution of Congress, as well as a copy of the Commission's Rules of
Procedure relating to the taking of testimony; isn't that right?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. I want to inquire of you today concerning your knowledge
of Lee Harvey Oswald and Marina Oswald, which we understand you gained
as a result of your association with the Oswalds, basically during 1962.
Mr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?
Mr. GREGORY. Paul Roderick Gregory.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are presently a student of the University of
Oklahoma; isn't that right?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What are you studying at the University of Oklahoma?
Mr. GREGORY. Russian language and literature.
Mr. LIEBELER. What year are you in at the University?
Mr. GREGORY. First year graduate student.
Mr. LIEBELER. You already hold a degree from the University?
Mr. GREGORY. I have a bachelor's degree in economics.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are now pursuing a master's or doctor's?
Mr. GREGORY. A master's degree.
Mr. LIEBELER. In the subject you have just indicated?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes; Russian language and literature.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are the son, are you not, of Peter Paul Gregory?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where does he live?
Mr. GREGORY. 3513 Dorothy Lane, Fort Worth, Tex.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your father is originally from somewhere in Siberia, is
that not correct?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And he came to the United States approximately when, do
you know?
Mr. GREGORY. I would guess about 1920, or '21, or '22. I am not sure of
the exact year.
Mr. LIEBELER. He has engaged in business as a geological consultant, is
that correct?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. When is the last time you were home in Fort Worth?
Mr. GREGORY. I can't tell you the exact date. It must have been
February the 10th, I believe, or February the 9th, because it was right
around my birthday, which is February the 10th.
Mr. LIEBELER. What year were you born?
Mr. GREGORY. 1941.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you had occasion to speak with your father over the
telephone or to exchange letters with him since the time he appeared
before the Commission in Washington.
Mr. GREGORY. I spoke with him approximately three times since that, I
guess.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss with him the testimony that he gave
before the Commission?
Mr. GREGORY. No. He only said that he mentioned my name. That is the
only thing he said about the testimony.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when you met Lee Harvey Oswald and
his wife, Marina?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us when that was and the circumstances of
that event?
Mr. GREGORY. I met Lee and Marina Oswald in the summer of 1962. I would
suppose in the middle of June. I met them both at Lee's brother's house
in the western part of Fort Worth. Lee Oswald had become acquainted
with my father a week or two weeks earlier. I think he came to him with
the desire to get some kind of paper showing his ability in the Russian
language; I think he wanted to get a job as interpreter or something;
some kind of work which would have something to do with his ability to
use Russian.
I think he came in my father's office twice. I am not sure, because
I wasn't there, and gave him the address of his brother where he was
staying at the time.
And I don't know, he may have said, "Come see us." And my father and
I were both interested in meeting his wife who was Russian, we heard.
So, I believe my father found out their address and we went out for a
visit, purely social visit. That was, as I say, probably in the middle
of June, 1962, and that was the first time I ever met either Lee Oswald
or Marina Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know that at some time, in about June of 1962,
your father invited the Oswalds to come to your house?
Mr. GREGORY. Oh, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was that before or after the time that you mentioned?
Mr. GREGORY. That was at the end of the summer. They had actually been
at our house twice. One time about a month before this dinner at our
house. I just drove by with them for a few minutes. That was the first
time they had ever been to our house. And the second time was at this
dinner which you mentioned.
Mr. LIEBELER. When was the dinner?
Mr. GREGORY. I can't give you the date. It was near the end of the
summer, I imagine, in August, 1962.
Mr. LIEBELER. So the first time, then, that you met Oswald was at his
brother's place in Fort Worth?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who was present at that first meeting?
Mr. GREGORY. His brother's name, I think, was Bob Oswald. Bob Oswald's
wife and their children, I think they had two or three young kids, Lee,
and Marina, and June Lee, their baby, those were the only people there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Plus your father and yourself?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us, to the best of your recollection, what the
conversation was at that time?
Mr. GREGORY. I remember they brought out pictures which they had taken
in the Soviet Union and showed us where they had lived in Minsk, and I
believe they might have had pictures of Leningrad. I am not sure. And
then this evening there was something said about their trip back, how
they passed through Poland and Germany. And then my father wanted to
know how, what Marina thought of Russia, if it had changed after all
the years. And that was the general tone of the conversation.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember any details of the conversation about
the Oswalds' life in Russia?
Mr. GREGORY. At this time I did not. Later on we had quite a bit of
discussion about it, but not this time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you go through the period of time that you knew the
Oswalds, and to the best of your recollection tell us the approximate
number of times that you saw them and the circumstances under which you
saw them, and the dates that you can remember, from the first time you
met them at Robert Oswald's house at Fort Worth, to the last time that
you saw them?
Mr. GREGORY. Okay. We have already gone through the first meeting, and
right after the first meeting I left town for about a month. I visited
in San Francisco. I returned and then we decided it would be a good
idea if I would take Russian lessons from Marina, and it would be quite
a big help.
Therefore, the second time I saw them was in June, the middle of June,
a month, and to the 10th of August, let's say, just as a guess, we went
over to their house, my father and I.
We had to go somewhere, and therefore we only stayed for about ten
minutes. And we said, "Paul would like to take Russian lessons from
Marina," and she said, "Fine." And I set up dates to go twice a week, I
think Tuesdays and Thursdays, or Tuesdays and Fridays--I can't remember
the exact dates. Therefore, I was at their house two times a week from,
say, the middle of August until I went back to school which was in the
middle of September.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you also present at the dinner which your father
gave for the Oswalds?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who else was present at that dinner?
Mr. GREGORY. Myself, my father, the Oswalds, George Bouhe, Anna Meller,
her husband, I can't remember his first name; then Mrs. Clark and Mr.
Clark. I can't give you their first names.
Mr. LIEBELER. You clearly remember that they were there?
Mr. GREGORY. I think they were there. I could be mistaken. There is a
possibility they weren't. I can't remember exactly.
Usually, the reason is, whenever we have the Russians over, they were
there. Now that I think about it, they weren't, because I believe
my mother was the only one that didn't understand, and Mrs. Clark's
husband didn't understand Russian. Therefore, I guess they weren't
there. Then my mother was there and June Lee was there.
Mr. LIEBELER. The Oswalds' little girl?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes. I believe that was all. And I saw them once more,
if you are interested. That was probably the Friday or Saturday after
Thanksgiving of 1962.
Marina called up. I was home for vacation. And she said that she
and Lee were at Robert Oswald's house for Thanksgiving dinner, or
something, and she wanted me to come over and pick them up and have the
visit, and I would take them down to the bus station, because they rode
the bus over from Dallas.
They had since then moved to Dallas. And I went and picked them up and
brought them back to our house and we had sandwiches, and I took them
down to the bus station, and that was the last time I saw them.
Mr. LIEBELER. You just left them off at the bus station and they went
and got on the bus, and as far as you know, went back to Dallas?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't pay for the bus tickets, did you?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You let them off at the bus station in Fort Worth?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You let them--did you ever give any money to either Lee
or Marina Oswald?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes; I gave Marina a check. As I remember, it was around
$35 or $40, something like that.
This was for the Russian lessons which she did give me. As I remember,
$35, something like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that all the money that you gave to either of them?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that check was made out to Marina Oswald, is that
correct?
Mr. GREGORY. Marina.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever lend the Oswalds any money?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see anybody else ever give either of the
Oswalds any money?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of anybody else ever giving them any money?
Mr. GREGORY. I believe Mr. Bouhe gave them money. I know he gave them
gifts, playthings for their daughter, and possibly clothes. I heard he
gave them clothes, but I, myself, did not see this, so that is hearsay.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did either of the Oswalds ever spend any money or pay any
bills while in your presence?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes. I often took them--I believe the second day I would
go over in the week was Friday, and I would usually take them shopping
and we would go down to a Leonard Department Store where you could get
groceries cheaper, and they would buy their groceries at this time. But
the only articles they were purchasing in my presence was food.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of approximately how much
they spent on food?
Mr. GREGORY. It was very little. I recall I was amazed at how little
they bought, and that Lee would always be very careful with the meat.
He would be sure to get the cheapest possible cut he could get, and
he would haggle and make sure they gave him the best. I mean, that he
would get the better cuts and things like that. I remember they bought
very little though.
Mr. LIEBELER. Other than the groceries, you never saw them spend any
money or pay any bills; is that correct?
Mr. GREGORY. No; never.
Mr. LIEBELER. You did not see them? I suppose the answer should be,
"Yes; I did not see them"?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes; I did not see them paying any bills.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did the Oswalds ever discuss their finances with you, or
discuss their finances between themselves that you ever heard?
Mr. GREGORY. Not that I can remember. There is something faintly about
them saying, "Well, if we had this money, we would buy something for
June Lee," but I can't think of any specific instance.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, taking all of your experiences with the Oswalds
together and all of the conversations that you had with them, would
you relate to us what they told you, and differentiate between Lee or
Marina, as best you can, about the whole Russian episode, why Oswald
went to Russia; what he did when he was there; how he met Marina; why
he decided to come back; and how he came back, and so on?
Mr. GREGORY. On one of the questions I can't answer very well because I
never discussed with him why he went. I personally never asked him.
At this dinner, I am sure you have already heard an account of it,
he explained that he went because he was disgusted with the American
system or the capitalist system where everything is run by money and
the desire to get money. That seemed to be his only objection, that I
ever heard, and his only reason as to why he left.
Let's see, what was the other. Oh, according to Lee, then also he was
very disgusted with the Marines, how the Marines had treated him. I
don't know if you could classify that as a reason for him leaving and
going to the Soviet Union. Maybe it was.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did he tell you about that?
Mr. GREGORY. Oh, I just asked him--I knew he had been in the
Marines--what he thought of it. He would never speak of it. He was
sort of--look disgusted and say, "I don't want to talk about it," or
something like that. Those are the only two reasons which I heard, and
the second one would be one which I am not sure of.
Mr. LIEBELER. He never discussed with you beyond the extent you have
indicated, his experience in the Marine Corps?
Mr. GREGORY. No; he was disgusted with it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate anything about his discharge from
the Marines?
Mr. GREGORY. No; he never did. I think a lot of things which he told
me were like the way he talked, that he graduated from high school,
from the same high school that I had gone to, and I read in the papers
that he was only there a month or so. So, possibly a lot of information
which he had given me would not be right, but he never did speak of a
discharge.
Mr. LIEBELER. Whether it would be right or not, it is important that
you tell us what he told you. You indicate now that he did tell you
that he graduated from Arlington Heights High School, is that correct?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you believed that until after the assassination and
you read in the newspaper that he had not, in fact, graduated from
Arlington?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what kind of job he had in the Soviet
Union?
Mr. GREGORY. He was in some kind of factory. Evidently, according to
him, it had something to do with radio equipment, because I remember
asking him once about thievery in the Soviet Union, because I always
read or had thought that factory workers take what they need and barter
because they don't get enough or are not able to make enough money to
buy all they need. And he said that he himself had stolen a radio and
phonograph. From that I know it was some kind of a shop and he ran
some kind of a machine. Because he told me of some incident when he
had to--the shop had to be changed, or they moved the equipment into
another building, and the first thing they moved was the picture of
Lenin and later they moved the equipment. It was heavy equipment, and
they set the machines so that the men could work facing Lenin. And
then they decided Lenin had to be hung in the most favorable place
in the shop, and the Commissar came in and inspected the next setup
and decided Lenin wasn't in the right place, and, therefore, they had
to come back in and completely remount all the machinery and turn it
around to face Lenin's new position.
He brought that up as a--I would ask him about what the people in
the Soviet Union think of a person who is a member of the Communist
Party. And he seemed to classify all members of the Communist Party as
opportunists who were in it just to get something for themselves out
of it, and he brought up this incident here because it was a Communist
Party man who came in and said you have to put Lenin back there, and
therefore you have to completely re-do all the machinery. He thought
it was stupid. And he said all the members of the Communist Party
were always the ones that shouted the loudest and made the most noise
and pretended to be the most patriotic, but he seemed to have quite a
disgust for the members of the Communist Party.
Mr. LIEBELER. He indicated quite a disgust for them?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes; he thought they were opportunists and it was my
impression that he thought they were ruining the principles which
the country should be based on. In other words, they were not true
Communists. They were ruining the heaven on earth which it should be,
in his opinion. That might have been a personal interpretation on my
part.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you anything more than the kind of place that
he worked and what he did?
Mr. GREGORY. Just that he worked in a shop that I mentioned. I remember
his main complaint about his life there was that he didn't get enough
to eat, that he had to go, either he or Marina, would have to go stand
in line in order to get anything, and he seemed to have only potatoes
and cabbage while he was there. And he would always speak about how
poorly he ate. That seemed to be his great objection to the Soviet
Union, that he didn't eat very well.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate that the same was true of other Soviet
citizens, or----
Mr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. They all had the same trouble?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate in any way that he might have received
more favorable treatment as compared to other Soviet citizens who held
similar jobs?
Mr. GREGORY. No. I think he was under the opinion that he possibly
received worse than just average treatment, because I think in the
Soviet Union, as I understand it, the methods of the bestowing of
favors is to give somebody a good apartment, because of the housing
shortage. And he complained that he did not get good housing. He lived
in a poor apartment, and that he was unable to change his job or leave,
because he had no place to go.
If he would leave or go to another factory, he would not be able to get
a new apartment. And I think I asked him a question about are people in
the Soviet Union free to change jobs and travel from place to place,
and he said maybe technically but they can't because it depends on the
apartment.
Then, as to whether he got special treatment, I asked Marina. I said,
"Was he the center of attention in Russia," and she said he was quite
a, I wouldn't say freak or oddity, but something quite unusual, and I
am sure he enjoyed this fact that he was the center of attention. She
said she met him at a dance, I guess in Minsk, and she didn't know
who he was, and she danced with him or something, and thought he was,
because of his accent, thought he was from the Baltic States, and later
somebody called her aside and said, "I guess you don't know who he is,"
and so forth, and I guess they more or less left him alone.
I know he mentioned having several friends in the Soviet Union. One was
some young fellow, I think his name was Pavel, and possibly another
fellow, and I know after he was in the United States he continued to
correspond with these people over there.
He showed me letters which he had written to them or which he was
getting ready to send, and letters which he had received. I believe one
was the son of a highly fairly influential person.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would that have been Pavel?
Mr. GREGORY. I think. I just remember something about him, about him
being a general's son or a colonel's son.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember his last name?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think you would remember it if I mention it to you?
Mr. GREGORY. There is a possibility. I believe they let me read one
letter which was harmless. There was no--I mean it was a personal
letter. Maybe I would.
Mr. LIEBELER. G-o-l-a-c-h-e-v [spelling], would that be the name?
Mr. GREGORY. It might be. To tell you the truth, the first name Pavel,
I am fairly sure of the Pavel part.
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; I think that is correct.
Mr. GREGORY. That is the only name I remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember the name of this other fellow?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald let you read any letters other than the one
you just mentioned?
Mr. GREGORY. No. It may have just arrived or he was explaining
something about how you address a letter differently. How you put where
it is going at the top, and the return at the bottom. He was showing me
something, and as I recall, I read the letter, but it was just personal
matters. I can't even remember the contents.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have no recollection of the contents of the letter at
this point?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anything in it, as far as you can remember,
that would indicate that it was secretive or anything of that sort?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. On this question of whether Oswald thought that possibly
he was treated less favorably than other Soviet citizens, there has
been some testimony that he perhaps felt disenchanted with the Soviet
Union because he was not given the kind of job that he expected to be
given when he got there.
Mr. GREGORY. Yes; I remember something now. He expected--I think he and
I got along well because he considered me fairly smart because I was
interested in the Soviet matters, and therefore our discussions were
quite a bit about academic matters, and he pretended, or possibly was,
fairly well educated. He seemed to read quite a bit. But he expected to
go over there and get into a Russian university. He made an application
for the Peace University or one of these universities for the foreign
students, I think, and he was quite disenchanted when he was not
accepted into this. That was his first idea, I believe, to go over
there and go to school. Then after he was not accepted, they sent him
somewhere to work in a little factory, and I guess he didn't quite like
this.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that one of the reasons he had gone to
Russia was to enter college or university there?
Mr. GREGORY. I don't know as that was one of his reasons for going, but
that seemed to me, according to him, the first thing he did was make
this application.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever mention to you anything about an application
to the Albert Schweitzer College in Switzerland? Did he indicate to you
in any other way that he was dissatisfied with the treatment he had
received by Russian authorities?
Mr. GREGORY. Well, there was. He said when he wanted to return, it was
touch and go whether Marina would get to come back with him, and he
felt that she had been discriminated against, because he told about
meetings which they had held in the factory or place where Marina
worked denouncing her as a traitor, et cetera, because she wanted to
leave the country. And I think this went on for weeks and weeks where
they put pressure on her not to go with him, and he expressed amazement
for the fact that they did allow her to return with him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any more of the details about what he
said about that?
Mr. GREGORY. About these meetings?
Mr. LIEBELER. About the meetings and his expression of amazement as to
why they did let Marina come back.
Mr. GREGORY. I think he said something about it was just an accident
where maybe 1 out of 10 just happens to get through where they allow
it. He seemed to think there was no special reason that they let her
go. It was more or less an accident.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say that to you?
Mr. GREGORY. Or an exception, yes, as I remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. So that he indicated to you his surprise that Marina had
been permitted to leave the Soviet Union with him?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. He explained it basically in terms of an accident or
something that he couldn't readily explain?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he offer as a suggestion as to why they had permitted
Marina to come back anything to the effect that it was a time of
reduced tension between the Soviet Union and the United States?
Mr. GREGORY. Not that I can remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember anything else that he said about the
subject of Marina being able to come back with him?
Mr. GREGORY. No. Marina spoke of it as being a very horrible time with
all her friends putting pressure on her, and it was very unpleasant for
her.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she indicate that she had had any nervous
difficulties as a result of this?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you learn at any time from either of the Oswalds that
Marina had gone to the hospital as the result of the pressure that was
put upon her by her friends?
Mr. GREGORY. No; I did not.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she mention to you, or either of them mention to you,
that Marina went to Kharkov on a vacation at one time?
Mr. GREGORY. No; I asked them about travel that each of them had done
in the Soviet Union, and the only other place that they mentioned
as having been, or one of them as having been, was Leningrad, which
was the city where Marina received her training as a pharmacist. And
I don't know if Lee had gone to Leningrad or not. Of course, Lee
would always tell me about his trips to Moscow and his trips to the
mausoleum, and going to all the museums and factories. He seemed to
speak as if he were a regular tourist then, because they assigned him
an interpreter, and evidently he paid the regular tourist fee.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you when this was?
Mr. GREGORY. No; he may have told me. I am sure it was in winter,
because he said--no, I am not sure. Put this down as something I don't
remember well, but I think that he said that it was cold and that the
Russians let him get up to the first line because he was an American.
It could have been someone else, because I have had several friends
that--I can't remember if that was Lee or not.
When he did speak of, I believe when we were having our conversations
was after--I can't remember when the de-Stalinization was, when they
took Stalin out of the mausoleum, but it happened before Lee came back,
and I asked him about that. That was another thing he seemed to get
quite a laugh out of. He looked at it very skeptically and thought the
Russians should be laughed at for doing things like this, where the
street signs would change overnight and no one would mention Stalin's
name any more, and he thought it was highly comical. I am saying this
to show that, in my opinion, he wasn't--never mind.
Mr. LIEBELER. No; I would like to hear your remarks.
Mr. GREGORY. Well, I don't know how to put it. In other words, he
looked at things critically over there.
He was not one who would say Khrushchev said this, therefore it is
right. He always was more or less critically observant of everything he
saw over there.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you say critically, you mean, as I understand now
your use of the word, he attempted to observe things objectively and
perceptively? He just didn't follow things because somebody handed it
out?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't mean to use the words in the sense that he was
just complaining about things, do you?
Mr. GREGORY. I could say you can use it in both senses. My main point
was that if Khrushchev says this, well, any good party man or anyone
who would be a conformist, if Khrushchev says that is fine, he was not
that type. He always expressed a great admiration for Khrushchev. He
seemed to think he was quite a brilliant man. And he said you cannot
read a speech of Khrushchev's without liking the man. He said he was
a very rough man, a very crude man, but he thought of him as a very
brilliant man and very able leader.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember anything else that he might have said
about him, Mr. Khrushchev?
Mr. GREGORY. Well, he might have spoken of him several times, but that
was the general idea. And while we were on Khrushchev, whenever he
would speak about Khrushchev, Kennedy would naturally come into mind,
and he expressed admiration of Kennedy.
Both he and Marina would say, "Nice young man." I never heard him say
anything derogatory about Kennedy. He seemed to admire the man, because
I remember they had a copy of Life magazine which was always in their
living room, and it had Kennedy's picture on it, or I believe Kennedy
or someone else, and he always expressed what I would interpret as
admiration for Kennedy.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you recall any specific details concerning his
remarks about Kennedy or the conversation that you had with him
concerning Kennedy?
Mr. GREGORY. No; just that one time, as I can remember in their
apartment that we did look at this picture of Kennedy, and Marina said,
"He looks like a nice young man." And Lee said something, yes, he is a
good leader, or something, as I remember, was a positive remark about
Kennedy.
Mr. LIEBELER. He never expressed any adverse feelings or made any
adverse remarks about President Kennedy in your presence?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear of him making any such remarks in the
presence of anyone else?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever mention Governor Connally?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear through any other source that he made
any remarks about Governor Connally?
Mr. GREGORY. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. As far as Marina was concerned, you indicated that she
too expressed a kindly feeling or a good feeling toward President
Kennedy?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would that indicate to you that Oswald had probably
indicated such feelings to her, since she was not able to read English
or understand English?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Or didn't you think about that?
Mr. GREGORY. I didn't think about it, and would not think that would be
true. I couldn't answer the question.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any opinion of Marina's ability to speak
English during the time you knew her?
Mr. GREGORY. Very poor. She knew two or three words.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was that true throughout the entire time you knew her?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes; the very last time I ever saw her was at Robert
Oswald's house and all she could say was "excuse me," because she would
go sit in the corner while everyone else ate.
Mr. LIEBELER. While everybody else what?
Mr. GREGORY. Ate.
Mr. LIEBELER. She didn't eat with you when she was sitting in the
corner and all the other relatives were sitting around the dinner table?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes; evidently she had eaten before I got there, just in
time to take them by, but every time I would go over I would ask, "What
have you learned in English," and she would always say, "I haven't
learned a thing." I personally gave her some vocabulary which I had
used to study Russian, which she could use in the reverse manner to
study English words and I assumed that would help her. I don't know if
she used them.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever think that Marina was deceptive as to the
extent to which she could understand English?
Mr. GREGORY. No; I don't believe so. Well, she never spoke English with
me, or never attempted to speak English. She would say, "How do you
do," something like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. What about Oswald's proficiency in Russian?
Mr. GREGORY. He spoke a very ungrammatical Russian with a very strong
accent.
Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of accent?
Mr. GREGORY. Well, I can't tell you, because I am not that much of a
judge. You would have to ask an expert about that. It was this poorly
spoken Russian, but he was completely fluent. He understood more than
I did and he could express any idea, I believe, that he wanted to
in Russian. But it was heavily pronounced and he made all kinds of
grammatical errors, and Marina would correct him, and he would get
peeved at her for doing this. She would say you are supposed to say
like this, and he would wave his hand and say, "Don't bother me."
Mr. LIEBELER. He indicated that he didn't care to have Marina correct
him as far as his use of the Russian language was concerned?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any discussion with them as to why
Marina did not learn English?
Mr. GREGORY. I said I thought it was kind of strange that she was not
picking up anything, but her expression was that she had to stay home
and she had no opportunity to speak. I did not observe any obvious
attempts on Lee's part to hold back her English, but I guess there was
an attempt since he would not help her himself. Evidently he didn't
help her.
I knew that later on George Bouhe tried to teach her English. He would
send her lessons and she would send them back and he would correct
them. I don't know to what extent these lessons went on, but these
lessons started after I had gone away to school.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any opportunity to judge Oswald's
ability to write the Russian language? You mentioned that you had seen
this one letter. Did you notice any misspelled words in it?
Mr. GREGORY. No; I did not see any letter that he had written.
Mr. LIEBELER. This was a letter that he had received?
Mr. GREGORY. I couldn't say at all. I imagine he would have quite a bit
of difficulty, because I don't think he had any understanding of the
grammar.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that his proficiency in Russian was
particularly good, or about average for the length of time he had been
in the Soviet Union?
Mr. GREGORY. I couldn't judge. All I think is, he was fluent and he
could read well in Russian. Probably he did have a better grammatical
knowledge than I thought, because of all of the reading which I saw him
do, excepting for a few books, was in Russian.
I mean, if he would sit down to read a book, he would be reading in
Russian.
Mr. LIEBELER. How much did he read?
Mr. GREGORY. I couldn't say. He was always going down to the library
and coming back with all kinds of books. Usually he would not read
in my presence, because we would all sit around and talk. Toward the
end, I was writing a paper and I needed Marina's help to correct the
grammar, and we would go over to one side and work on that, and he
would sit and read. He read Lenin. I can't remember which book it was,
but that is the only thing I have really seen him read. And then he
always spoke about his, he said, this great love of history.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see him read any books other than this book
about Lenin?
Mr. GREGORY. No; it was not about, it was Lenin writings, and Lenin was
all.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the name of any books that Oswald brought
home from the library that you saw in his apartment?
Mr. GREGORY. I can't remember. It would have been nothing extremely
interesting. I can't give any titles.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss with him the nature of his love of
the study of history?
Mr. GREGORY. No; I always--my opinion of him was that he was not very
smart. I thought maybe he would read a lot, but not absorb it. That was
my opinion of him.
He just said he always had this love of history, and he several
times--one evening he went out to TCU and another time he went out to
get the catalog for Arlington State to try to get some night school or
something, and this evidently was a pure dream on his part, seeing he
did not have the high school degree. And he always spoke that he wanted
to go back to school and get a degree and study economics and history
and philosophy and things like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. He went out to TCU? Did he tell you that he went out to
TCU?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. For what purpose, did he tell you?
Mr. GREGORY. To look for night school.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember approximately when that was?
Mr. GREGORY. It was the first time I ever went over there to have a
lesson, he was gone. And he returned after, say, 15 minutes. He said he
was at TCU, and he had a schedule of their classes. And another time
I took and I would take them out to look at the town. One night we
went to TCU, and he asked me, do you think the director of the evening
classes or some official, if they would be in at this hour, because he
wanted to go see, and I said, "No; I am sure no one will be there."
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever tell you that he talked to any of the
officials at TCU concerning the night school program?
Mr. GREGORY. No; he evidently must have talked to someone if he came
back with a schedule, because I remember looking at the schedule.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he come back with the schedule before or after the
occasion on which you were driving in your car to TCU?
Mr. GREGORY. No; it seems the first evening I went over there he
referred to the schedule.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, it was after that that he asked you during your drive
whether you thought anybody would be present at TCU?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your first Russian lesson was approximately when?
Mr. GREGORY. I would say August 10. I would hit it within a week either
way. All this time I thought he had his high school degree and I was
encouraging him to go back. I said, "Why don't you?" And he used as an
excuse that he had to work. And he never did tell me that he did not
finish high school.
Mr. LIEBELER. Going back to the statements that he may have made about
his activities in Russia, did he ever indicate to you in any way that
he had a source of income in the Soviet Union other than the income he
received from his job at the factory?
Mr. GREGORY. No; he never did. He always spoke as if he didn't have
enough money over there but he never indicated another source of income.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how much he was paid for his work at the
factory?
Mr. GREGORY. He told, but I don't remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember any discussions about his source of
income and what he did with it? I know you cannot specifically remember
the amount that he was paid.
Mr. GREGORY. No; the only discussion as to how he spent his money was
the tremendous difficulty he had buying food and buying enough food. It
seems to me as if the way he spoke, he spent all the money on food and
he had several articles of clothing which he brought back with him, of
which he seemed to be very proud.
I think he had a pair of boots or something like that, and he had a
closet full of junk.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever show you his boots?
Mr. GREGORY. I think so.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything about them?
Mr. GREGORY. I am not positive about the boots. I remember he had one
article of clothing which he showed me; said it was made in the Soviet
Union, and he seemed to be proud of it. As I remember, it was boots.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have no other recollection about it than what you
have just expressed?
Mr. GREGORY. No; I think a lot of his clothes were from the Soviet
Union, but I can't identify the articles.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever mention anything about assistance he might
have received from the Red Cross while he was in the Soviet Union?
Mr. GREGORY. No; the only financial spot which he mentioned to me was
the money he got through the U.S. Ambassador to Russia.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did he tell you about that?
Mr. GREGORY. He just said he went in and told them he wanted to return,
and the fellow gave him something like $300. And then after that, he
spoke of his trip back. He went through Poland and East Germany.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he had stayed for a time in Moscow
before leaving the Soviet Union to return?
Mr. GREGORY. The only time I know of his being in Moscow was when he
was there at the very first as a tourist, and that is the only time I
heard him mention being in Moscow.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you anything about any difficulties that he
encountered in obtaining the necessary papers for him and Marina to
return to the United States?
Mr. GREGORY. The only difficulties which I have heard are the
difficulties I have already brought up about the pressure put
on Marina. But as far as paperwork, I can't bring anything out
specifically.
Mr. LIEBELER. He never mentioned any difficulty that he encountered
with the U.S. authorities in that regard?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an impression as to the feeling he had about
the U.S. officials concerning his return?
Mr. GREGORY. He mentioned that they had given this money to return.
Mr. LIEBELER. I thought you mentioned that he told you they had loaned
him money to return?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes; I am saying he never expressed an opinion one way
or the other. It seems to me that normally a person in that situation
would say he was very glad they gave him the money. He seemed to expect
this money as if it was something that was due him, and he never
expressed any gratitude toward the Ambassador or whoever it was that
gave him the money.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he express any resentment toward any of the
Government officials concerning his return?
Mr. GREGORY. Completely neutral.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you whether or not he returned the money to
the State Department?
Mr. GREGORY. No; he never told me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any opinion either from your discussions
with Oswald as to whether or not Oswald was well liked in the Soviet
Union, and accepted by the people in the community in which he lived?
Mr. GREGORY. As I said before, it seems to me as he was treated as an
outsider, and the only two people I ever heard him speak of were the
two I mentioned besides Marina. Evidently Marina was a special case,
that she did pay attention to him.
He evidently must have been fairly militant over there, or fairly,
could I say not friendly, because he told me of one instance where
the fellows at the factory were studying night course in English or
something, and they came to him and wanted him to help them, and he
helped them once or twice, but then he came to the conclusion they were
lazy and he threw them out and told them he didn't want to help them
any more. Evidently, he wasn't too friendly over there, so I doubt if
he had too many acquaintances.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that all he told you about the incident when the
fellow factory workers were trying to learn English?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes; and I think one fellow, Pavel, he came to Lee to help
him with his English and he said this fellow was a good student, and he
evidently gave him quite a bit of help.
Mr. LIEBELER. Lee gave quite a bit of help to Pavel and Pavel was
trying to learn English?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes; but the other fellows he thought were lazy and
refused to pay attention.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate whether Pavel gave him any assistance in
learning Russian?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Or whether he received any other training in the Russian
language while he was in the Soviet Union?
Mr. GREGORY. The only thing he said he learned in the factory when he
went over there, he said he didn't know anything, and when they just
stuck him in a factory, he said he picked it up there, and Marina
helped him quite a bit.
Marina told me that Lee's Russian when I was with him was bad compared
to the Russian Lee spoke while he was in the Soviet Union.
In fact, I have Lee's dictionary which he gave me. He gave me his
Russian dictionary and he told me, "I don't need it any more," and
therefore he gave me the dictionary.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have that at the present time?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where is that, in Norman?
Mr. GREGORY. In Norman; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. I wonder if you would make that available to us?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes; I looked through it to see if there is any writing
and there is no writing. There is something, he wrote a name up there
or something.
Mr. LIEBELER. If you would make it available to us, we would appreciate
it. We will have somebody from the Secret Service or FBI contact you
in Norman and obtain it, or if you want to mail it to us at the
Commission. How do you want to handle it?
Mr. GREGORY. Either way.
Mr. LIEBELER. We will have somebody from the Secret Service.
Mr. GREGORY. I don't know of any writing.
Mr. LIEBELER. We will make arrangements for someone to pick it up and
we will eventually return it to you.
Mr. GREGORY. Yes; okay. I have a card also which he sent me, if you
are interested, which was written to inform me a change of address to
Dallas, which was dated on November 1, approximately, 1962. Those are
the only two things I have that belonged to him or were from him.
Mr. LIEBELER. We would like the card too, if you would make that
available.
Mr. GREGORY. All right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald mention anything to you about hunting trips
that he went on while he was in the Soviet Union?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he mention any access that he might have had to
firearms?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any opinion, or did Marina tell you anything
that would indicate the reason why Marina seemed to take a special
interest in Oswald, or seemed to be a special case, I think you used
that terminology?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes. I could tell you--this is a personal opinion--but
evidently she was kind of a rebel or nonconformist herself, and she met
quite a bit of opposition because she did see Lee. And I am not sure,
but I believe her family gave her quite a bit of trouble about that,
too.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember any specific situation that she may have
said about that?
Mr. GREGORY. All I know is that when she returned--she said she had
written her relatives--she had an uncle and aunt and sister, and they
refused to answer, and she never received an answer from them.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you infer from that that they gave her
difficulty in connection with her marriage to Lee Oswald, or that they
disapproved her decision to come to the United States?
Mr. GREGORY. I assume it was both. It is an assumption on my part.
Mr. LIEBELER. Marina never indicated specifically any difficulty that
she had with her relatives?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any opinion, or did Marina ever indicate to
you that possibly she married Oswald to get out of the Soviet Union?
Mr. GREGORY. No; I don't believe so.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you never formed that opinion?
Mr. GREGORY. I never formed that opinion. She seemed quite interested
and quite enthusiastic about a new life in America, and she seemed to
me that she wanted to take part in it, but she got over here and it
was, she was just in one room and never got out, and she always kept
saying, "When I learn English, it will be different."
She always expressed a desire to learn English, and, "Do you think I
will ever be able to learn it?" And I said, "Yes." And she seemed quite
enthusiastic about America.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think it was strange that she seemed interested
to learn English but apparently made no attempt to learn it? Did you
discuss that with her at all?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes; I would always ask her, "What have you learned," and
she would say "Nothing." And I said, "Well--" we really never went into
it completely why she hadn't. I just assumed that either she didn't
want to or else she really didn't have the opportunity to get out, or I
can't answer specifically.
Mr. LIEBELER. She never indicated a desire to you that you should help
her learn English in connection with her attempt to teach you Russian
or to improve your Russian?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss with Oswald the reason, or with
Marina, for that matter, the reason why Oswald decided to leave the
Soviet Union and return to the United States?
Mr. GREGORY. Well, let's see, I have brought up why he was
dissatisfied. Well, of course, he didn't get enough food. That seemed
to be one of his major things.
And evidently he lived fairly poorly over there. Then I am sure he
went over there thinking this would be the heaven on earth, the
workers' paradise, and he quickly found out that wasn't so. This
might be a personal judgment on my part, but I think he felt that
they are making a mess of things over there. Maybe he did believe
in communistic principles which I don't believe he understood if he
believed in them. But he felt that the present administration like the
party boys and the people in power were just making a mess of things,
that they didn't know what they were doing. He felt like, he said they
were opportunistic. No; he never came out and said, "I left because
so-and-so and so-and-so."
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate a desire to have his children raised
in the United States?
Mr. GREGORY. I can't remember if he did.
Mr. LIEBELER. You told us a moment ago that Oswald at one point told
you how he had left the Soviet Union and gone through Poland and East
Germany. I would like you to tell us everything you can remember about
that.
Mr. GREGORY. I really can't remember anything specifically. I just
asked him how he came out, and he said he was on the train, and
something or other happened in Poland, I didn't quite understand it,
where there was some incident in Poland where they bought something, or
some person sold them something black market and--I can't remember it,
but they never gave me a travellogue of their trip out of the Soviet
Union.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he eventually went to some point in
Holland and boarded a ship and came back to New York?
Mr. GREGORY. He did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection about that other than what I
have just stated?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how he got from his landing point in the
United States to Texas?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you where he landed in the United States?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know that now?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate any dissatisfaction with the
conditions here in the United States other than the ones that you
previously indicated that he expressed? That is, that everyone seemed
to be concerned about making money? Did he ever indicate that he
thought particular institutions ought to be changed in any way?
Mr. GREGORY. No; his only objection that he ever voiced to me was about
the money everyone was out for themselves, and evidently he never
had much money, and I guess he felt persecuted on account of this. I
remember one evening I gave him a tour of the town, and I took them
to, you know, drove by all the big mansions. I figured they would be
interested in seeing that, and it seems like there if he would really
have any strong feelings, they would have come out then.
He said something about how horrible it is that here people are living
in these big mansions, and I think just before that we had seen a bad
part of town where the colored people lived, but he made no comment
there. I think he just said, "Well, I never want to be rich like that."
Mr. LIEBELER. He indicated no particular animosity toward people of
wealth and position?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Going back to his experience in the Soviet Union, did he
ever tell you that he had ever been in the hospital there?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you any of the details about his marriage to
Marina, as to any difficulties they experienced in getting permission
to become married, or anything of that nature?
Mr. GREGORY. No; I don't think so. As I remember, it happened quite
fast. I believe they were married 2 or 3 weeks after they met.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else that he ever told you
about his experiences in the Soviet Union that we haven't already
covered?
Mr. GREGORY. Not at the moment.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever discuss any subject concerning Russian
military movements or the presence of troops, concentration of
equipment, aircraft and that sort of thing?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Never mentioned it at all?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You told us before that you held a bachelor degree from
Oklahoma University and that you majored in economics?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss economics with Oswald?
Mr. GREGORY. I never discussed it with him because I don't think he
knew anything about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did the subject ever come up between you?
Mr. GREGORY. He would always say that is my great love, history and
economics.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say about it? I am interested in this,
because I gained the impression from others that he didn't know very
much about it. In my opinion you probably do know more about it than
most of the men that I talked to, so I would like to have you tell us
as much as you can.
Mr. GREGORY. He never said anything, and that is the reason I got the
impression he didn't know anything about it, because if he knew, he
would want to talk about it. I never approached the subject because
he seemed to not want to get into it. I thought from an interview
with him, when they were having all this on TV, that they asked him a
question, something about comparative economics, and he gave some kind
of stupid answer and more or less confirmed my opinion that he didn't
know too much about it. But we never did have a specific discussion
about economics.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss with Oswald any contacts between him
and agents of the Soviet Government in connection with any attempt on
their part to recruit him as an intelligence agent or as open activity
of the Soviet Union?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss it with anybody else?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did it ever occur to you that Oswald might be an agent of
the Soviet Union?
Mr. GREGORY. No; I was always fairly positive that he wasn't, because
I figured that if the Soviets wanted to get someone, they could get
someone a lot more reliable. They would have a lot more sense than to
get him, because I think he was, personally had a bad temper, I think.
Mr. LIEBELER. What makes you say that?
Mr. GREGORY. Well, he would always, he never really didn't get mad, but
he would--I never did figure out if he and Marina were arguing or just
talking, but he would always shout, and I remember one evening that we
went out, were going to the grocery store, and Marina had June in her
arms and she stepped over and fell off the porch, and boy he got mad.
You know, the baby fell on the ground. He really got mad. And that was
the only time I ever saw him real mad. I guess maybe he had reason to
be mad, because Marina had dropped the child.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she fall out of her arms?
Mr. GREGORY. They both fell. She hurt her back. I thought she had.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did he do?
Mr. GREGORY. He went over and picked up the baby.
Mr. LIEBELER. Then what did he say?
Mr. GREGORY. He got real mad, and then they ran in and they had the
medical book written in Russian about baby care, and they went through
it and I think the baby had a cut on its head, and Marina had a cut
on her knee or something, and everything quieted down and we went out
again, but it was a real hot moment.
Mr. LIEBELER. Other than the fact that you noted, is there any other
reason why you said you thought he had a bad temper?
Mr. GREGORY. I heard afterward, after the last time I saw him, I heard
reports about him beating her, from the Dallas acquaintances.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never saw any evidence of that yourself?
Mr. GREGORY. No. One time I went over and she had a black eye. At this
time I had no suspicion, that--but possibly I never asked her where did
you get the black eye.