Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. That he had been mistreating her, based on your own
experience?
Mr. GREGORY. Later when I heard about this in Dallas, well I thought
maybe it could have happened back there then.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are there any other reasons on which you base your
opinion that he had a bad temper?
Mr. GREGORY. No, just personal judgment. He seemed to be a small person
that is always ready to flare up. We always had very good relations. We
were very friendly.
Mr. LIEBELER. Other than the fact that you think he had a bad temper,
is there any other reason why you think the Soviets would not recruit
him as an agent?
Mr. GREGORY. As I say again, I don't think he was very smart.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are there any other reasons?
Mr. GREGORY. No. Then, of course, his animosity which he expressed
toward the Soviet.
Mr. LIEBELER. Towards the members of the Communist Party?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes. He didn't quite enjoy life over there, and it just
didn't enter my mind that he could have been.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did it ever enter your mind?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. It is only after the assassination that you considered
this question; is that correct?
Mr. GREGORY. Even then I never considered it seriously.
Mr. LIEBELER. But my question is: When did you consider it at all?
Mr. GREGORY. Only after, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. After?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes. I think this might be important. More or less
his philosophy, which I think came out, is that at the time I was
interested in going and studying in the Soviet Union in our exchange
program. We have an exchange where our University sends over students
and they send over to ours, and I was interested in seeing how it was,
how life would be, see if it would be too hard, and he says, he told
me, "Just go over there. Don't get on a waiting list. You will never
get there."
He said, "If you want to do something, go ahead and do it. You will get
involved in red tape." And I think that was possibly the way he thought
about everything.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever form an impression of Oswald, based on
your association with him, form an opinion prior to the time of the
assassination that he was mentally unstable, too, in any way?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You did not? He did not appear to be that to you?
Mr. GREGORY. Let's say, I wouldn't classify him as--evidently he was,
but at the time I didn't think he was. I just thought he was, as I say,
fairly hot tempered and not extremely brilliant.
But I never did think of him as mentally deranged. Maybe I saw him
mixed up. He must have been mixed up to do what he did, as far as the
assassination, but just going over to the Soviet Union----
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you consider this question prior to the
assassination? The question is, tell us in your own words what opinion
you formed of Oswald and what you thought about him at the time you
knew him in 1962?
Mr. GREGORY. I never minded him. I always enjoyed being with him. I
enjoyed Marina more than Lee. She was a very pleasant person, very
pleasant to be with, interesting. I can't say that I disliked Lee. He
had bad qualities, but I mean, when we were together, I think he more
or less put on his best front, because I think he considered me someone
he could talk to. Because I think he considered other people beneath
him, and he thought that everyone was judging him.
I think he felt that his brother--this is a personal opinion--that they
were sort of taking him in out of the goodness of their hearts.
And I never expressed any judgment on it or even asked him or faced
the matter as to why he had done what he did. Therefore, our relations
were always good. But still I classified him as hot tempered, not very
smart, and slightly mixed up. And I am sure about a good many other
examples, but I am not a psychiatrist or psychologist.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you are saying not very smart, are you talking about
what your impression of what his intelligence or what his level of
education?
Mr. GREGORY. I am thinking of academic sense, inability to grasp things.
Mr. LIEBELER. Basically a function of his IQ rather than his formal
education?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you ever interested in his formal education, or make
any inquiries on that?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes; I was interested in it as to whether he finished
high school, and that he had expressed to me desire to go on in higher
education.
Mr. LIEBELER. We have already covered that.
Mr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate to you, or did you ever form the
opinion, that he was capable of violent acts?
Mr. GREGORY. No; I didn't think he was. I would say maybe I could only
picture him getting into a fight or something. Judging from the type of
person he was, if someone would insult him, I think he would get into
a fight, but as far as the major violent act, I couldn't picture him
doing.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you consider that question prior to the time of the
assassination?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. It just never occurred to you?
Mr. GREGORY. No. Just an automatic judgment like I make, a general
judgment about all people, I figured he was the type person, if you go
downtown with him and someone would say, would insult him, he would
probably get into a fight or something like that. That is just my
general judgment of him. He never did in my presence, or nothing ever
happened. It is just a general judgment.
Mr. LIEBELER. The kind of judgment you would make about many people, is
it not?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. There never was anything peculiar about Oswald that
caused you to form a peculiar judgment about him or think he was
peculiar in any way?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. But he was the kind that easily flared up, although he
never did it in your presence, he was the type that would, and you did
think that about Oswald?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes. But as far as any violence, I couldn't picture him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever indicate to you that the world situation
was not due to the people in the world, but was caused by the leaders
in the various countries?
Mr. GREGORY. I think so. Once or twice he made that exact statement,
and I can't remember if it was Marina or Lee. That is the exact words.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was that translated into any animosity against the
leaders of the two countries, either Khrushchev or Kennedy?
Mr. GREGORY. I could not say. I would not think so, because of what I
have already said about the fact that Lee had expressed admiration of
Khrushchev and had expressed that positive feeling toward Kennedy.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now that I have called to your attention and you recall
that either Lee or Marina did make a remark about the world troubles
being caused by the leaders and not the people, does that cause you to
reflect on your prior testimony?
Mr. GREGORY. No; I don't think so. There was no animosity in the
statement. It was more or less----
Mr. LIEBELER. Philosophical opposition--no personal animosity expressed
at all?
Mr. GREGORY. No; no such animosity.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of any connection between Lee Oswald and Jack
Ruby?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any knowledge of Oswald's drinking habits,
as far as alcoholic beverages are concerned?
Mr. GREGORY. He never drank in my presence.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not Oswald was interested in any
other women during the time that you knew him?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear that he was?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever express an interest in guns to you?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever observe any firearms in his presence?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Or in his possession?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Or discuss the subject of firearms?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. During these lessons that you received from Marina in the
Russian language, was Oswald usually present or usually absent?
Mr. GREGORY. Usually present. In fact, he was always there. The first
time I was ever over was the time that he was away somewhere, and he
came back, say, 10 minutes after the lesson started.
Mr. LIEBELER. That was the time he had been to TCU?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear of any attempt on Oswald's part to
commit suicide?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. The same question as to Marina?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know James Martin?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never met James Martin at any time?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you meet him in Oklahoma?
Mr. GREGORY. No; I never met him in Oklahoma.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know anyone by the name of James Martin?
Mr. GREGORY. The only persons I ever met in Lee's presence are his
brother, and Thanksgiving when I went to pick him up there was another
half brother and his wife.
Mr. LIEBELER. The name was Pic, was it not?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes. I learned that after the assassination.
Mr. LIEBELER. After the assassination did you learn that there was a
man by the name of James Martin who became Marina's business manager?
Mr. GREGORY. I believe I read the name in the paper.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you never met him either in Fort Worth or Norman or
any other place?
Mr. GREGORY. Never heard of him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Just never met him--any individual, who appeared to be
Marina's business agent, whether or not his name was James Martin or
anything else?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversation with Lee or Marina about
Marguerite Oswald?
Mr. GREGORY. No. He never mentioned the fact that he even had a mother.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever observe Lee Oswald driving an automobile?
Mr. GREGORY. No. I asked him if he could drive. He said, "Yes." But if
we ever went anywhere, I drove.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything more about that? Was that just a
simple statement?
Mr. GREGORY. I just simply said, "Do you know how to drive?" And he
said, "Yes."
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you ask him that?
Mr. GREGORY. I don't remember whether we were going out to some grocery
store or something like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you never saw him drive a car?
Mr. GREGORY. No. He would walk great distances without thinking about
it. I mean, what is in our estimation a great distance. And then he
rode the bus quite a bit. But I never saw him drive a car or heard of
him driving a car.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised when you learned that Oswald had been
arrested in connection with the assassination?
Mr. GREGORY. Very.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us something about your state of mind at
that time?
Mr. GREGORY. Well, my first impression was, I saw him on television
when they first brought him in, and they didn't mention his name. And
later they said the first suspect being brought in is Lee Oswald. I
felt sure he had not done it. I felt that they probably brought him in
because of his record in the Soviet Union and thought maybe he would be
a likely person, but I did not think he had done it.
The only time I decided he may have done it was when the Secret Service
talked to me and said the evidence looked----
Mr. LIEBELER. Talked to you?
Mr. GREGORY. Yes; it was on a Saturday after the assassination, and
said it looked like he was the one. And my--I more or less reoriented
my thinking that he was the one.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who from the Secret Service talked to you; do you
remember?
Mr. GREGORY. I can't remember. Real nice fellow. Oklahoma City.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Nielsen?
Mr. GREGORY. I think that was it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he outline the evidence to you relating to Oswald's
alleged guilt?
Mr. GREGORY. No; he just said something that, I think something came
over the radio that the chief of police said he was the one, and then
he made a phone call and he said it looked like he was the one, or
something like that. Something that he identified the gun or, I can't
remember the exact words.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any organizations of which Lee Oswald was
a member during the time you knew him?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear of any organizations to which he
belonged?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of the names of any people with whom he
associated?
Mr. GREGORY. No; besides his brother and myself. That is it. Oh, then
the Dallas Russians who I have mentioned.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a gentleman by the name of Gary Taylor?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know George De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. GREGORY. I think I heard my father mention the name De
Mohrenschildt. I think he is from Dallas.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you do not know him personally, however?
Mr. GREGORY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. I have no further questions. If there is anything that
you would like to add to the record, we would like to have you do it.
If there is anything you think I should have asked you about that I
haven't, I would like to have you mention it and we will put it on the
record now.
Mr. GREGORY. No; I think you have covered it.
Mr. LIEBELER. In that case, we will terminate the deposition. I want to
thank you very much, Mr. Gregory, for driving all the way from Norman
to Dallas to give us your testimony. The Commission appreciates it very
much.