JOHN HARRISON, examined.
16,426. What are you?-I am a merchant in Lerwick.
16,427. Have you been for a long time a partner of the firm of
Harrison & Son?-Yes, since 1856.
16,428. I understand you have had large experience in the
management of the Faroe fishing business?-Yes.
16,429. Have you also had some experience with regard to the ling
fishing?-Not a great deal; but I have had some.
16,430. Has your firm had any connection with the management of
land or property in Shetland?-None whatever.
16,431. Have you neither been tacksmen nor proprietors?-My
father is a proprietor to a very small extent.
16,432. But you have not been in any way dependent for your
supplies of fishermen upon any interest or connection with
land?-In no way whatever.
16,433. Did you find the absence of that connection with land to
be any inconvenience to you in the management of your business,
with regard to getting fishermen?-None whatever; but men have
been hindered from engaging with us, in consequence of being
under the power of tacksmen or landlords, who wished to engage
them for themselves, although they would have preferred to have
gone into our service.
16,434. Has that occurred in many cases?-I cannot state the
number of cases, but it has occurred in many, and within recent
times.
16,435. Can you give an instance of that without mentioning
names?-I could not particularize the instances at the present
moment, but if I had time I am prepared to bring forward more
than a dozen instances within a period of between two and four
years back.
16,437. Are you now speaking with regard to your supply of Faroe
fishermen?-Yes.
16,437. Is it not the case, that where tenants are bound fish for
their landlord or tacksman, that obligation only applies to the ling
fishing if they engage in it but that they and their families are
quite free to go to the Faroe fishing or the whale fishing if they
please?-Under the system which obtains in Shetland, it makes no
difference what fishery a man may go to. He is bound to do what
the landlord or the tacksman wishes; if not the result is merely the
service of a warning to the parents; and of course, in consequence
of the injury which that would do to them, the children, out of
their kindness to them, must submit to any rules which may be
laid down for their observance.
16,438. The evidence which has been led before me before, of
fishermen and of proprietors, has been to this effect, that the
obligation upon a man to fish for the proprietor or tacksman
extends only to the ling fishing, if he is engaged in it, and that if
he chooses to go to the Faroe fishing he is at perfect liberty to do
so?-I know of no such obligation.
16,439. Has your experience been different?-Entirely different.
16,440. Does your experience not apply to cases where the tenant
may have been in debt?-When the tenant is in debt, it is utterly
impossible for him to go and serve another man. But I was
referring to the case of parties who were quite free of debt, and
who had money in their own possession.
16,441. How many of these cases have come within your
knowledge within the last two or three years?-I could not
particularize them. There have been several cases which have
come under my own notice, or the notice of my firm, although
I could not state the number; but from hearsay, and from the talk
of men who are serving other owners, I am led to believe that a
very great number of these cases has occurred. I do not mean to
say that there was actual straightforward force put upon the men;
but there were certain innuendoes, by which they knew perfectly
well that if they did not do as the tacksman or landlord wished, the
result would be that they would be warned out.
16,442. Can you mention the circumstances of any particular case
in which men have been prevented from going to the Faroe fishing
in any of your vessels?-I can particularize one instance which
came very vividly before me. There were two brothers, who had
been with my firm since they were boys. I had rather a respect for
them both, because they were honest men and capital fishermen.
One of the boys came to me and said, 'I find that I cannot go in
the vessel I wished to go in this year, because I am told by the
tacksman that my parents will be warned. My brother can go; but
if he does, he will have to pay so much for the liberty of going in
the vessel that he wishes to go in.' I had no reason to doubt the
correctness of that statement, because, notwithstanding his evident
anxiety to get into the vessel belonging to us, in which he wished
to go, and in which he had been serving before, he did not go in
her; and it was the evident pressure that had been put upon him
which hindered him from going.
16,443. Is that the most striking case of the kind that you have
come across in your business experience?-I cannot say that it is
the most striking case, but it is the case which appears at the
present moment most patent to me, because we were so directly
interested in it ourselves.
16,444. How long is it since that happened?-Three or four years
ago; I cannot say precisely.
16,445. Is that the only way in which your not having connection
with land has interfered with your business; or do you find it a
disadvantage with regard to the manning of your own vessels, not
to have landed property under your control?-No, I don't find that
to be a disadvantage; I find that we have been the most successful
owners of fishing vessels in the Faroe trade of any in the country;
and the reason is simply this, that the men who come to us are free
men-men who are not bound, neither will be bound, by tacksmen
or landlords but men who have been able to earn money by
superior energy; but we have had to do a great deal in order to
obtain such it class of men, and we have had to lose a great deal
of money which other people perhaps have put into their pockets.
16,446. Do you mean that you have lost it great deal of money in
order to secure this superior class of men?- Yes.
16,447. But has not the fact that you have procured them, proved
remunerative to you in the end?- [Page 416] Of course it has. It
has been a gain to the men, and it has also been it gain to us.
16,448. Do you find that a man who is in debt is its good a
fisherman, in your experience, as one who keeps clear of debt?-
By no means. My experience has been, on more than fifty
different occasions, that although men were due us from £5 to
£18 or £20, we would not engage them again if the captains of the
vessels said they were not fishermen who were worth being taken,
and would rather lose the balances against them in our books than
employ them.
16,449. Then you consider it an erroneous statement, that it is
advantageous for a merchant in Shetland to obtain a great number
of debtors?-I consider it to be the most erroneous statement that
ever was made.
16,450. You are aware, I suppose, that that statement was made in
the evidence of a witness who was examined in Edinburgh?-Yes,
I read something of that kind in the evidence; but I think it was
erroneous. I suppose Mr. Walker, when he made it, thoroughly
believed that the parties to whom he referred believed that having
a number of debtors was the best thing they could possibly have;
but my impression is quite different, because the fishermen who
are in debt do not have the same energy, nor do they exert
themselves so much in procuring fish as other men who are free.
If the fishcurer who had so many debtors had called them in and
said to them, 'Now men, I will strike off the balances against you,
and you will get no more supplies until you bring fish ashore,' I
have not the slightest doubt that at the end of the season the result
would have been it great gain to him, and a great gain to the
fishermen.
16,451. But you think that other parties in Shetland may have
acted upon the principle referred to in Mr. Walker's evidence,
although you do not approve of it?-They may have done so, and
I have no doubt they have, because it is a common axiom in
Shetland that if once you get a man into debt you have a hold over
him. No doubt you have a hold over him, but it is simply a hold
over a very unwilling slave.
16,452. However, you have acted upon a different principle?-I
have always endeavoured to do so as much as possible.
16,453. And you think you have been justified in doing so by the
results?-Decidedly.
16,454. Can you give me any particular instance in which you
proved the superiority of men who were free from debt to those
who were in debt?-I can give general instances of that. In an
island called Hildesha, belonging to my father, the men were
accustomed to cast their fish, as it is called, green, and to get
payment at so much per cwt. when they were landed green on
shore. I found, after three or four years' experience, that at the
settlements the men were getting into debt, although they were
very good fishermen; indeed there were no better fishermen on the
west side of Shetland. When I asked them the reason they said,
'Will you give us liberty to cure and dry our fish, and to sell them
to you, or to Messrs. Garriock & Co., when they are dry?' I said,
'Certainly, if you think that will better your condition. Our house
is an exporter of fish to Spain, its well as Garriock & Co., and I
expect that you will not give them the fish at the same price which
we will give you for them, but that you will rather give us the
preference, seeing you are tenants of my father.' The men said
that of course I should get the fish immediately they were dried,
and they thought that would be an advantage to them. The result
of that was, that the men reaped a great benefit; and although some
of them afterwards, left the island in debt to the extent of £50, the
best of them are now free men, and have money of their own in
bank.
16,455. Is it long ago since that happened?-It is more than four or
five years since they left the island.
16,456. How long is it since they paid off their debts?-I think not
more than three years ago, some of them.
16,457. Was that not binding the tenants to deliver their fish to you
in the same way as proprietors do, whose method you disapprove
of?-Certainly not. I stated distinctly that if they offered their fish
to Garriock & Co., and could get more money from them, then
they were at liberty to sell to them. There was no stipulation
whatever to the effect that these men were to deliver their fish to
us.
16,458. Except that they were to give you the preference?-That
was not at all stated. They simply gave us the preference, because
they had a notion-a very foolish notion-that we might have
acted in the same way as other parties would probably have acted
if they had not done so: that was, by giving them a warning and
turning them out of the island.
16,459. Did you not say that you stipulated with the men for that
preference?-No, I did not stipulate for it. When I said to them
that I expected they would give us the preference I did so not in
the way of a threat, but, seeing that the men were tenants of ours,
and that they had no reason to be dissatisfied with any supplies
which they might receive, from our house during the time of the
fishing, I felt that they were right in giving us the fish. I don't
deny, however, that there was a certain sort of coercion upon
them, from the very fact of my father being their landlord.
16,460 Have you considered the existing system in Shetland with
the view of suggesting a remedy for the grievances which are
alleged to exist?-I have thought it great deal over it, and our firm
has suffered a great deal in consequence of the existing state of
affairs, in the way I have already referred to; but certainly the
remedy one can hardly point out
16,461 What do you consider to be the principal evils which
exist?-The principal evil in Shetland arises from the system of
land tenure, whereby no man has a lease; or if he gets a lease and
if he is a fisherman, that lease is such that it is impossible for him
to continue to be a fisherman, and to prosecute the fishing with
energy. It is those who have no leases who are so bound down that
they cannot do anything in the least degree contrary to the wish of
the landlord or tacksman. I may give one instance of that, which is
rather ludicrous. I was down at Sandwick parish the other day,
and I was very anxious to bring up some fowls to town if I could
get them to buy. I sent a man round to see if he could get any for
me, but he called back saying that although I had offered about
twice the value for each of the fowls, he had found it quite
impossible to purchase them, as it was an agreement between
landlord and tenants, although the tenants had no leases whatever,
that they had to deliver so many fowls about the month of
February to the landlord. I don't know whether the landlord gave
credit for these fowls and took the value of them off the rent; but
my impression is that it was something over and above the rent, as
a present for being allowed to sit without leases.
16,462. Was not that just part of the rent as kain was formerly
paid, and is now paid in some parts of Scotland?-I don't think
it was, because there is no account of rent in which that item is
marked down, so far as I know.
16,463. But I suppose the obligation to fish which is imposed
upon yearly tenants is the principal objection which you have to
the present system of landholding?-Decidedly.-
16,464. It what way does it operate injuriously this way: that
neither I, nor any man who has any amount of capital, can come
forward and by competition enable these fishermen to get a larger
price for their fish.
16,465. But the arrangement with these fishermen all cases is
stated to be, that they get the current price at the end of the
season. Would that current price be any higher than it is now if
the tenantry of Shetland were not so bound?-I am speaking just
now of the benefit to the fishermen, not of the benefit to the
fishcurers. I think the current price at the end of the year might
in many cases be less, even with greater competition, if the parties
bought the fish green from the fishermen, all the fishermen being
free, because several of them no doubt would be obliged to sell
their fish at an early period of the year when they might not obtain
a good price. That would therefore bring down the market, and
the result would be that the fishermen [Page 417] in that way
would get less money if a current price were fixed then. But with
regard to the benefit to the fishermen, I think that if there was a
system of cash payments the competition would ensure the highest
price to the fishermen; and of course the parties who bought would
have to take the risk, the same as every merchant does who buys
an article in every other trade in the world.
16,466. If you were introducing a system of cash payments, how
would you propose to work it in the ling fishing?-That is a very
difficult question to answer. In the case of the ling fishing, as well
as in other fisheries, the only way would be to pay the men when
they came on shore, as the fish were weighed out of the boat.
16,467. Would you pay them the whole amount according to
a price fixed at the beginning of the season or at the time of
delivery?-At the time of delivery, not at the beginning of the
season.
16,468. Then that price would vary according to the state of the
market?-Yes. If the price were fixed at the beginning of the
season, and if one boat or twenty beats fished to one man, the
result would be that that party would have the power over these
men, so that no other competitor could come forward, although the
markets might rise to the extent of from 1s. to 2s. 6d. per cwt.
16,469. Then you would not only have the price fixed at the time
of delivering the fish, but you would give up the existing practice
of engaging a boat's crew to fish for the whole of the season?-
Decidedly. In the case of the ling fishing I would leave power to
the boat's crew to sell to whom they liked.
16,470. In that case would there be any choice but to deliver to any
fish-curer whose station happened to be most convenient for the
crew?-The distances in Shetland between the different stations
are sometimes very considerable, and of course a fisherman would
be obliged to deliver his fish to any party who had a station near
his house, if no other person came forward, but by the existing law
any person who wished to go into the trade could come forward
and erect a booth on the shore, and put up all the paraphernalia
necessary for the curing and drying of fish, no matter on whose
ground it might be. There are plenty of beaches in Shetland; and if
the fishermen at a station came on shore and found that they could
get a higher price from any competitor who came forward, other
than the person who had a booth erected on that beach, they would
be quite entitled to sell their fish to that other party, who could
cure his fish on the beach, seeing that the party who held the beach
did not have any fish to cure on it himself, no matter to whom the
property belongs.
16,471. Is it not the practice in Shetland for proprietors to let their
beaches?-It has been the practice, but it is not legal. The practice
has generally been to charge 1s. per ton for the curing of fish on
the beach; there is no such thing in Shetland as a beach let, but the
tenants or small crofters who want to eke out their incomes can
cure fish, or rather dry them, for themselves on paying perhaps 1s.
per ton to the landlord or to the tacksmaster, for the privilege of
drying the fish on the beaches below the crofts which they occupy.
16,472. Is it within your knowledge that 1s. per ton is generally
paid by every crofter who cures fish on the beach adjacent to his
holding?-That is quite within my knowledge, because our firm
have paid it to more than twenty small crofters who have been
drying fish for us, and they have then had to pay it to their landlord
or tacksman.
16,473. Do you mean that that charge has been made by the
crofters against you?-No, not made against us.
16,474. But they have made that charge, and you have agreed to
pay it as part of the price of their fish?-When I first went into the
trade 12s. per ton was paid for drying fish to the crofters to whom I
refer. After a short time they complained about the 1s. per ton
for the use of the beaches and our firm then raised the price of
curing to 14s. per ton, which we paid, if I mistake not, for two or
three years when no other firm in Shetland paid it. Now, as I
understand, other firms in Shetland are paying the same money,
14s. per ton for curing; but 12s. was the original price when I
entered into the trade.
16,475. Is that for drying also?-Yes.
16,476. If a price were fixed at the time of landing the fish, and
were paid in the way you mentioned, by one of several competing
purchasers, do you see any difficulty in the way of a fisherman
continuing to live and support himself, as an operative in any trade
has now to do?-There would be very great difficulty at first,
because the greater proportion of fishermen in Shetland are
dependent on the supplies which they receive from the fish-curer
to whom they fish. At many times the weather is so bad that
they have not sufficient to live upon, and are obliged to go to the
fish-curer and ask him for the necessaries of life for themselves
and their families.
16,477. But in a time of slackness in the iron trade, or any other
trade the same difficulty might beset the operative?-Yes, he
might be in want of supplies. I have no doubt that the operatives
in Lancashire and the manufacturing districts often suffer what our
Shetland fishermen have no conception of. I thoroughly believe,
however, that any sufferings which they might be exposed to in the
first instance might be relieved in some way, which I cannot at
present suggest; but still afterwards their condition would be
greatly improved, because such a system would give them a great
deal more self-reliance, and the knowledge that they were simply
getting payment for what they delivered would make them more
independent and more energetic. I believe the result would be a
greatly increased fishery in the islands, and the throwing over of
that serf spirit which exists at present among so many of the
tenants in the islands who fish.
16,478. Is it not the case that the Shetland fisherman has an
advantage over the operative in the south, in respect that he has
got a piece of land, which of itself is often sufficient to support
him and his family during the greater part of the year?-Generally
speaking, the crofts would do so. It would be a very poor croft
indeed which would not support them for at least six months a
year. In such a case the piece of ground must be very small, or at
all events it may be their own indolence which leads them not to
make the most of it; but in that way the Shetland fishermen have
a great advantage over the operatives in the town, who, if they do
not earn a day's wages, cannot get a single farthing's worth of
food, except from the charity of others.
16,479. But then it is said that the fishing is it more precarious
trade, and extends only over it period of the year in Shetland.
Does that not counterbalance any advantage which the fisherman
derives from having a croft?-It is true that the fishing is a
precarious trade, but we have always found that whenever the
weather permits, energetic men can make a very fair earning from
it. Of course, when the weather does not permit, it is impossible
they can do anything except in the way of inshore fishing; but
unless the weather is very bad indeed, if a man will only try he will
get as much from that as will save his family from starvation. I
think the advantage he has by his croft will compensate for any
disadvantage to which he is exposed by the occurrence of periods
of bad weather; and therefore I consider that his position is
infinitely superior to that of an operative in a time of strike or it
time of bad trade, when manufacturers are obliged to cast off their
hands from want of sufficient work to keep their mills or their
manufactories going.
16,480. Do you consider he would be better even if a system of
cash payments were introduced, and he did not fall back or
could not fall back upon the fish-curer when he was in want of
supplies?-I consider it would be much better.
16,481. Would a system of cash payments be an insuperable
obstacle in the way of a man of steady and respectable habits and
good repute, obtaining advances in provisions from any merchant
in his neighbourhood?-I believe it would help him very
considerably. I consider that if it system of cash payments was
introduced, [Page 418] a man would find a great deal more facility
in getting goods at the lowest possible price from any person who
might wish to put up a store in his neighbourhood.
16,482. Are you aware that a great amount of apprehension exists
among fishermen in Shetland lest any change in the present system
involving payments in cash should deprive them of the support
which they derive from the fish-merchants in bad seasons?-I am
aware that that is a very prevalent idea among them, and several
instances of it have come under my notice during the last two or
three years.
16,483. Are you of opinion that that apprehension may have had
some effect in making the fishermen unwilling to come forward
and to give evidence freely before this Commission?-I have
not the slightest doubt that that has prevented men from coming
forward who would have been able to have given the best possible
evidence with regard to the questions you have asked me.
16,484. Are you now speaking from your knowledge of the people
and of the system for many years?-I am speaking from my
experience of the people and of the system, which experience has
extended over more than 20 years.
16,485. Would it be possible to introduce a system of cash
payments in this way, by allowing the fish to be paid for at the
current price at the end of the season, if the parties so agreed, and
arranging that at delivery a certain proportion of the price should
be paid in cash: for example, that three-fourths of the average
price for the last five years should be paid them, leaving the
remainder of the price to be paid according to the current price
as ascertained at the end of the season, thus giving the men the
benefit of any rise which might take place in the market by that
time?-I am afraid that if such a system were adopted, the party
who got the fish from the men even on one occasion, and paid
three-fourths or two-thirds of the value of the fish delivered
according to the contract price, would have such a power over
the men, that, even supposing a competitor came forward, say in
a month afterwards, to buy their fish, they would not be able to sell
to him although he offered a higher price, because the knowledge
that there was a balance standing in the hands of the merchant to
whom they had sold in the first instance would hinder them from
taking advantage of the increased price from the other, for fear
they might not be treated in the way in which they ought to be at
the settlement.
16,486. But the question which I put assumed that the engagement
of the fishermen was for the whole season?-I cannot see how in
that case it would alter the system. It would remain the same as it
is at present, because, if the engagement was entered into for the
year, although there might be no contract or obligation on the
fishermen to take supplies from the man who bought their fish, yet
there would be a certain feeling on their part which would force
them, as it were, to go with their money which they had received
as part payment, and buy goods with it from his place. Therefore
the merchant might have the same monopoly which he at present
enjoys.
16,487. But if the men had the cash, would that monopoly be in
any way injurious,-if you can call it a monopoly where the men
have the choice between two shops, and voluntarily prefer that of
the fish-curer?-Under the present system of land tenure it would
have no effect, because whoever the landlord favoured, if the
landlord was not a fish-curer himself, would of necessity have the
preference in the dealings of the fishermen, as they would know
that under the present system they are liable to get forty days'
warning and be turned out of their farms at Martinmas.
16,488. Do you mean that under the present system the fishermen
would consider themselves bound to deal at the shop of the
landowner or tacksman if he were engaged in fishing?-If a
system of money payments were adopted they might not consider
themselves bound to do so, but there would be so many petty
vexations put upon them, that the men, out of regard for their
own comfort, would decidedly give the preference to the
tacksmaster's or the landlord's shop, if he happened to be in the
trade, notwithstanding that they might have to pay a trifle more for
the goods which they got at his shop.
16,489. Then is it your opinion that, without altering the system of
land tenure in Shetland, a system of cash payments would be
unavailing to improve the condition of the people?-If no landlord
and no tacksman under a landlord was in the fishery trade, then
an improvement might be effected, but so long as landlords and
tacksmen-who have power over the land sometimes to a much
greater degree than the landlord himself can exercise-are
fish-curers themselves, it is impossible that a system of cash
payments can have any effect in ameliorating the condition of the
fishermen as it now exists.
16,490. In what way do you think it possible to modify the system
of long settlements now existing with regard to the Faroe
fishing?-The only way possible, seeing that the voyage to Faroe
extends to six or nine weeks on an average, would be, that when
the agreements are made out a contract should be entered into
between the owner and fishermen along with these agreements,
providing that they are to deliver their fish at a certain price per
ton weighed out on their arrival at a port in Shetland, whatever
port they may agree to deliver them at.
16,491. Then, in the case of the Faroe fishery, you would suggest
that the price should be known before the vessel sails, and not,
as you propose with regard to the ling fishery, at the time of
delivery?-No, I don't say that. The difference is, that the owner
of a Faroe vessel, according to the present agreement, has the risk
of the vessel and of the outfit, and also of the salt and of materials
necessary for the prosecution of the fishery. In most cases, indeed
in all cases, he requires to give advances to a certain extent to the
crew, say from at the lowest to £7 or £8 in other cases. If he did
not have the power of getting the fish in his own hands, by having
a
contract from the men to deliver their fish to him at a certain
price rather than to others on their arrival after the first voyage the
men would have the power to deliver their fish perhaps to another
competitor, and the result would be, as is sometimes the case in
the Greenland trade at present, where the men are paid at the
Custom House, that his advances would not be paid to him at all.
The difference appears to me to consist in this, that the fish-curer
who gets the fish is the owner of the Faroe fishing vessel, whereas
in the ling fishing the men who fish in the boats are the owners of
them. That, in my opinion, makes a great difference.
16,492. It is part of the agreement in the Faroe fishing that the
merchant should have delivery of all the fish, and that he is
entitled to it, because he is the partner of the men in all that
they take?-That it is the agreement
16,493. Then you think it would be possible, and perhaps
expedient, that a settlement should take place at the return of
the vessel from each voyage?-I believe most of the owners
would agree to that; but my impression, from the feeling which
I know to exist among the fishermen, is, that they would have a
notion that they were lying under a disadvantage by making a
contract before the fishing commenced.
16,494. Do you think the fishermen get any advantage in the Faroe
trade from having their fish paid for at the current price at the end
of the season?-They get a very considerable advantage in that
way. We have been in the habit for several years of purchasing
fish from vessels owned by Englishmen, and manned by English
fishermen from Grimsby and Hull. We pay them a certain price
per ton, cash down, when the fish are landed on the beach, and we
are supposed to make, and I may say that we do make, a profit
upon these fish when they are sold in a dried state. Our fishermen,
generally speaking, get within a commission of the price that we
receive for these Englishmen's fish, which fish are quite as good
as our Shetland fish, and therefore they have the difference of the
profit which we make on the price we pay for the fish in a green or
wet state and the price that we receive when the fish are dried.
[Page 419]
16,495. Then, if the settlement were to take place at each landing
of the fish, in whatever way it was made, you think the men would
lose that advantage?-I don't say they would lose in all cases. In
some cases they would gain. We have often lost in buying fish in
that state, because the markets at the end of the season have fallen
so very heavily.
16,496. Would there be any objection, in your opinion, to bringing
the vessels employed in the Faroe trade under the regulations of
the Merchant Shipping Act applicable to foreign-going ships?-
There would be very great objection to that. It would ruin the
fishery altogether if there was the slightest restriction upon the
vessel sailing at any moment: a great part of a fishing voyage
might be lost. In my opinion, a delay of twenty-four hours has,
in many cases, hindered a crew of mine from gaining £100.
16,497. When a vessel comes in from her first Faroe voyage, how
long does she usually remain in harbour?-That depends very
much on the energy displayed by the men in getting the fish out
and getting on board their supplies of salt and other fishing
material requisite for the next voyage. I know vessels which have
taken a week, and I know other vessels which have been off again
in forty-eight hours. It cannot be done in less time than that.
16,498. I believe the vessels on their return don't always come
to Lerwick?-No; the most of them go to the west side,-to
Scalloway and the adjacent places in the islands.
16,499. So that it would be necessary to have a Custom House
officer in each of these places, if any such regulations were
adopted with regard to the Faroe smacks?-It would be necessary
to have a Custom House officer in at least eight different places in
Shetland.
16,500. Do you mean that there are eight places frequented by
these Faroe vessels where they are in the habit of landing their
cargoes?-There are eight places where the vessels go, no matter
at which place they land; but there are more than thirty or forty
different places in the islands at which they land their fish. I am
simply referring to the places where the owners of the vessels live,
and where the vessels go in order to receive stores and salt after
the fish have been landed.
16,501. Then the fish may be landed at a different place altogether
from where the vessel has afterwards to receive her stores and
salt?-Yes.
16,502. But they do go to one of these eight places invariably
before starting on their second voyage?-Yes.
16,503. What are these eight places?-Voe, Vaila Sound, Skeld
Voe, Reawick, Bixter, Tresta, Whiteness, Scalloway, and Lerwick.
16,504. Do you think it is advantageous for the fishcurer, as a
matter of business, to have a shop for the supply of his fishermen;
and do you think that a system of short payments or of cash
payments would be consistent with the fish-curer remaining
also the keeper of a shop?-I don't consider that it would be
advantageous for a fish-curer to have a shop where there was
sufficient competition to cause him to sell at the low rates of profit
which obtain in all places where there is a proper amount of
competition, because he undertakes a risk which otherwise he
would not do. He takes the risk of supplies to men who go to the
fishing, and who may come back without anything whatever.
Then, if he is not a landlord or tacksmaster, he knows perfectly
well that he has not power over these men to force them to serve
him for another year; and therefore I consider that if there was a
system of short payments, and if the fish-curer had no advances to
make to the men, he would be in a better position than at present,
if he is a man of capital, and was able to lie out of his money until
he could get the fish dried and prepared for market. There is no
doubt that fish-curers in Shetland would require to have more
capital than they do have if a system of short payments were
adopted, because they get credit, perhaps for months, for the goods
supplied to the fishermen; whereas if they had to pay cash they
would be placed in quite a different position.
16,505. Do they get longer credit on their purchases of goods than
merchants in any other parts of the country in consideration of
them having to make these advances to fishermen?-I don't say
that they get longer credits, but they get sufficient credit perhaps
to enable them to get forward so much of their fish. And even
suppose they wished a longer credit, they could, from the
creditor's knowledge that they had such fish in their possession,
obtain a renewal of their bills.
16,506. Are you aware that it is almost the invariable practice for
men employed by a fish-curer to take part of their supplies from
the shop of their employer?-That is the invariable practice.
16,507. Do you think the men in general have any option as to
whether they are to do so or not? I am not speaking of your own
business merely, but of the trade generally throughout Shetland?-
In the case of men who are in debt they have no option whatever,
because other parties would not supply them, knowing that they
are bound to deliver the proceeds of their fishing to the fish-curer
for whom they fish. But I must also say, that notwithstanding that
there are a great number of men who have plenty of money to pay
for their advances, whether it is from a knowledge that they can
obtain them at the same prices as they can from others, or from
carelessness to look after the matter, they generally take advances
to a small extent from the party for whom they are fishing.
16,508. You say that a man who is indebted has no option; but a
man who has no cash, although he may not be indebted, may be
equally without option, may he not, on the same grounds that you
have stated?-I should say that he has little option, unless he is a
man who is well known, and who has perhaps dealt with some
other shopkeeper or grocer previously, and paid him honestly.
16,509. Are you aware whether it is common for the fish-curer
to make advances in cash to fishermen during the course of the
season, with which they can go and purchase their goods where
they please?-I cannot say that, to my knowledge, money has been
advanced to fishermen during the course of the season in order that
they may purchase goods where they please. I don't think that any
of the fishermen coming to ask for money would tell the fish-curer
from whom they were asking it for what reason it was being
required, unless it was to help to pay rent, or to buy meal or some
other necessary article for the house.
16,510. Could he not get the meal at the shop of the fish-curer?-
In some cases he may not be able to do so.
16,511. You say that fishermen frequently prefer to take advances
from their employer although they may have money of their
own?-I don't say that they prefer to take it; but I know in my
own experience, that, without any solicitation on the part of our
firm, men who have plenty of money always do take advances to a
certain extent.
16,512. Do you suppose they do that in order to save them from
drawing their own money from the bank?-I believe that is the
case.
16,513. Has it come within your observation whether a practice
of hoarding exists to a great extent in Shetland among the
fishermen?-I believe it does.
16,514. Even among men who appear upon the books of the
merchant with whom they deal to be in his debt to some extent?-
I have known several cases of men who have allowed balances to
stand over against them year after year, when I knew perfectly well
that they had more than sufficient money in their possession to
have paid off the debt.
16,515. How do you account for that?-I account for it in this way,
that the system has obtained so long of fishermen requiring
advances, or rather taking advances, that they cannot see or do not
understand, why they should take their own money in order to buy
the necessary supplies before they proceed to the fishing. I have
no doubt that they have also this idea, that the fish-curer takes a
sufficient profit upon the goods supplied, and they consider they
have a right to keep [Page 420] their money and not to pay for
them until the end of the season.
16,516. Have you or your firm had any connection with the agency
for Greenland ships?-None whatever. The only Greenland vessel
we ever had any connection with was a Dutch vessel, sent out by
an Amsterdam company last year, for the prosecution of the finner
whale fishing at Iceland.
16,517. Is there any additional observation you have to make?-
The only other observation I have to make is with regard to the
evidence given by Mr. Walker at Edinburgh last year relative to
the payments to fishermen and their earnings. As the answers
which have been given by my firm in the circular sent in to you,
refer at least to one of the smallest years with respect to the men's
earnings, I should like to make a statement with regard to the gross
earnings, and the sums paid at settlement to the fishermen in the
previous year, that is, in 1870. For 81 men and boys employed by
us that year, after all the supplies which they had received during
the season had been paid by them out of their earnings the average
payment to each was £23, 15s., and in many cases those who had
the greatest earnings did not take up more than one tenth part of
them in supplies during the course of the season. Those men who
were free men, and who were not bound to fish in any direction
except where they wished, were the men who took up the least
advances. I now exhibit a statement for the year 1870, proving
what I have stated. It refers to six vessels. The gross earnings
of the 81 men and boys in that year were £3022, 18s.; the total
amount paid in cash was £1923, 0s. 3d., or an average of £23, 15s.
16,518. You mentioned that certain men left your father's island
after having cleared off their debt: where did they go?-They went
to various other places; they entered chiefly into the Faroe fishing.
16,519. Did any of them return to fish for tacksmen, and deliver
their fish green as they had done formerly?-None of them.
16,520. Is it not the case that some of them went to Burra and
resumed fishing, and delivered their fish green to the tacksmen
there?-The father of the family went to Burra.
16,521. Did you refer to one family consisting of a father and
several sons?-Yes.
16,522. Did the father resume his old system of fishing Burra?-
Yes.
16,523. Why did he return to Burra?-Because the boys got
dissatisfied with the system under which they were fishing, and
the old man, of course, finding himself without the help of his
sons, could do nothing else than take a croft of land, and try to eke
out a living in the best way he could.
16,524. Then, although the men cleared off their debt in the way
you have described, by drying their own fish and selling them to
you in a dried state, the boys became dissatisfied with that system
of fishing?-They became dissatisfied with it, because it was not
sufficient to keep them.
16,525. Although it cleared off their debt?-No, they had not
cleared it off at the time they left. They cleared it off in
consequence of going to the Faroe fishing or elsewhere.
16,526. Then the system of fishing that you refer to, and curing
their own fish, did not enable them to clear off their debt?-It did
not; but they might never have been in debt if they had been more
economical.
16,527. But you referred to that change in their mode of fishing, as
showing the effect produced by the difference in the green price
and the dry price for fish?-Yes; and if they had remained long
enough, I have no doubt they might have cleared off their debt as
well as others.
16,528. Then you think they did earn more under that system than
under the other system?-Yes.
Lerwick, February 6, 1872, WILLIAM ROBERTSON, examined.
16,529. Are you in the employment of Messrs. Hay & Co. in
Lerwick?-I am.
16,530. I believe you desire to give some further evidence on their
behalf, with regard to the mode of dealing with men engaged for
the seal and whale fishing?-Yes.
16,531. You have prepared a written statement, which you wish to
give in as part of your evidence?-Yes.
[The witness put in the following statement:-]
'I am in the employment of Messrs. Hay & Co., and have been for
upwards of 28 years, during which time I have had the chief
management of their ship-agency business, and particularly
as to that part of it connected with the whale ships. It was my part
to bring the men and the masters together, and attend to the
engagement of the crews. The masters invariably chose the men
themselves and fixed their wages, and without any regard
whatever as to whether the men had any connection with my
employers or not, or might happen to be indebted to them. The
masters generally selected first those men who had been with him
the previous voyage and that pleased him, and it was no
uncommon thing for men to go with the same master for many
years. When the men were engaged they always had the option of
getting their first month's advance in cash, even before the recent
regulations of the Board of Trade; and if they wished it, they also
got allotment notes, but they seldom took the latter. In the cases
where they did not take all their first month's advance in cash, it
was when they required a much larger advance in the shape of
warm clothing than the advance could obtain for them. Men going
to Greenland require various articles that are not wanted by home
fishermen, and which have to be prepared for them specially.
Previous to the year 1867 a large proportion of the crews shipped
here were young lads from 16 years old and upwards, and the
wages from 15s. to 25s. per month. A month's advance could
go but a small way in procuring the clothing necessary for such
a voyage, and an allotment note could not help them, because
sealing voyages were generally short, seldom exceeding two
months. The agents had therefore to trust to their getting
oil-money and to their honesty in repaying the second year what
they could not pay the first. Without such assistance these young
men could not go to Greenland; and the consequence of the recent
regulations of the Board of Trade having been to prevent them
getting the necessary clothing, few of them are now shipped. Of
the four crews, consisting of 97 men, shipped by us in 1871, only
three lads were under 19 years of age; while in 1866, of the four
crews of 67 men, 19 were under that age. Before 1867 I was able
to do the greater part of the work of engaging and settling with the
crews myself, but since then I have had to be assisted by one or
more of the other clerks in the establishment. My employers, that
year, foreseeing the extra trouble that would arise from the new
regulations, and that the ship agency would interfere with their
ordinary business, arranged with the other agents to insist on
getting a higher rate of commission, add intimated to the owners
for whom they acted, that they would in future charge 5 per cent.
instead of 21/2. They were induced to depart from this, because the
agreement was not adhered to by some of the other agents; but
they have continued in the trade with much reluctance, and chiefly
at my instigation, and from friendly feelings for certain of the
masters, for whose fathers and grandfathers even the firm had
acted. In 1867, and since then, the men have always got their first
month's advance in cash at the Shipping Office; they have also
been paid in cash the balance owing to them at the end of the
voyage whenever they chose to ask it, irrespective of any advances
that had been made to them for clothing; but, as a rule they always
came promptly and voluntarily to pay their accounts when so
settled, and I am not aware of any case where they required to be
compelled to do so. The men are very seldom in debt, and we do
our [Page 421] utmost to prevent their being so instead of
encouraging it, as has been stated in a report made to the Board
of Trade. Whenever the ships came to Lerwick on their return
voyage, we always endeavoured to get the men to wait and be
discharged in a body, but even then could not always effect it; and
when they were landed at other parts of the islands we found it
quite impossible. It is not true, so far as Hay & Co. are concerned,
that they ever took means to prevent the masters coming to
discharge their men at Lerwick. On rare occasions, when the ships
have come in, and the masters have been anxious to get away
again without waiting to attend at the Shipping Office, I may have
written at their request a letter of excuse to the shipping master,
but certainly never advised them to go away. It is quite true that
when I have paid off men before the shipping master, who had
accounts to settle, I have told them to go down to the office and I
would follow. Once or twice men have offered to pay me at the
Shipping Office, and particularly on one occasion when a man had
a trifle to pay he offered it there, which seemed greatly to offend
the shipping master, who appeared to dislike the trouble of having
to take the men separately. I have been told that a larger
proportion of advances in clothing is made to the Peterhead men
than to our people, and that such is charged in the masters'
accounts there, although not permitted here.'
16,532. You say in that statement, 'The masters invariably chose
the men themselves and fixed their wages, and without any regard
whatever as to whether the men had any connection with my
employers or not, or might happen to be indebted to them. In
point of fact, were the men engaged by the masters not generally
indebted to the agent?-The masters knew nothing about that.
16,533. But were they not so in point of fact?-They were not, in
most cases.
16,534. Had they not arranged in most cases, before going on
board the ship or going before the master, to take part of their
outfit from your firm?-No; they came and asked that after they
had been engaged.
16,535. Did they not purchase their outfit until they had been
engaged?-No.
16,536. Had you many cases of men who were engaged by masters
through you purchasing their outfit from other shops?-I cannot
say. Sometimes I believe that was the case; but of course I could
not know what they did in other shops.
16,537. Did all of them come to your shop for part of their outfit
at least?-Generally for part of it; but I have seen men who had
nothing from our shop except what are called mess things-things
which the men have to provide jointly.
16,538. I understand you collect the men and take them before the
captains?-Yes.
16,539. Do you make any selection of them before doing so?-No;
the captain selects his own men. If the men are strange to the
captain, he may ask me if I could find a good man for him, and I
may do so, and have done it; but that is the only kind of selection
have made.
16,540. But before the men are taken before the captain at all, is
there no negotiation on your part as to the men who are to go?-
No. If the man has gone in a ship before, he will come and tell me
that he wants to go again in that particular ship.
16,541. Do you present a list of the men to the master?-The
master generally has a list of his last year's hands, and if he likes
them he will take them again, or any part of them he chooses; and
if any of them are not suitable for him, he selects the rest from the
other men who come forward.
16,542. But do the men that the master selects all come up before
him without any list of their names being made beforehand?-He
generally has a list of his former crew there to look at.
16,543. Is there any list of the other men besides those of his
former crew?-No.
16,544. Are the names of the men wanting engagements not
entered in your books?-No.
16,545. Do you not keep a list of the men who come to you asking
to be engaged?-We never do that. The men are always there, and
I just tell them to be at the place when the master comes, and then
he takes his own men.
16,546. But if a man comes in from the country or applies to you
for an engagement before the vessel arrives, would you not take a
note of that?-No. I merely tell him to be there at the time, and
see if there vacant berth that will suit him.
16,547. Do you go up with him before the master?-He goes along
with the rest.
16,548. Do you, as acting for Messrs. Hay, ever refuse the
application of any man who comes wanting Perth?-We cannot
do so, because we always leave that to the master, who can take
any man he chooses.
16,549. Do you ever refuse to suggest a man to the master, or to
bring him before the master?-I never refused to do that, unless
he was a useless man that I knew was of no use.
16,550. Then you have refused to suggest a man in such a case?-
Yes; if a man was not a good hand, or the like of that, I would tell
the master so, and then he could take him or not as he chose.
16,551. But have you ever said to a man when he came applying
for a berth, 'I cannot take you,' or 'I won't take you, before the
captain?'-Not to my recollection.
16,552. Then a man might as well go to the master at once as
apply through you for an engagement?-The master comes to
the place to select his own men, and some of them go on board
and apply to him themselves.
16,553. If you make no selection at all beforehand, is there any use
for them applying to an agent? Might the men not go to the master
at once and be selected by him, without your intervention at all?-
They might; but the master wants an agent to assist him in
collecting his men.
16,554. What assistance does the agent give him?-He helps him
in engaging them. For instance, the articles are all filled up by
the agent, except the names, before going to the Custom House,
so as to facilitate business there. Perhaps there may be a number
of ships lying here at one time, and there are a number of
arrangements to be made. The agent carries through all that,
and the master has merely to attend at the Custom House and
see the thing completed.
16,555. That is to say, you give the master certain assistance after
he has selected the men?-After he has selected the men we take
down their names, their places of birth, and so on, and enter them
in the articles.
16,556. But before he selects the men the agent has done
nothing?-No further than that if a man comes wanting an
engagement, the agent will tell him that the master will be on
shore at a certain time, and the men are told to be there.
16,557. Is that the statement which is invariably made the men
applying for berths to you, without exception?-Yes, invariably;
except it is a man that I know is of no use and then I may tell him
that I can say nothing for him.
16,558. How many men out of 100 applicants might you say that
to?-Not many. I never turn any away if the man chooses to go
and take his chance; but if I know that the man is not a suitable
hand, I tell him that he cannot expect me to recommend him. But
there are very few men of that kind.
16,559. Do you remember any cases in 1871 in which you
intimated to the men that they were of no use, and that they
would not get a berth?-I don't recollect any.
16,560. Do you remember any particular cases of that kind in the
year previous?-I do not recollect any.
16,561. Have you ever intimated to any man who was owing you
an account that he was of no use, and would not get a berth?-No,
not to my knowledge.
16,562. In what way do you know that a man is of [Page 422] no
use?-By being told by masters that he was of no use.
16,563. Have you a general knowledge of the men's abilities from
their reputation?-Yes, from what I hear from the sailors who
have gone in the same ship; or if the master has found them not to
be suitable hands, he tells me not to send them to him again. But
there are very few instances of that kind; perhaps not one out of
100 or 200.
16,564. Was that the mode of selecting the men which was in use
five or six years ago?-They were all selected in the same way by
the master; he was always present.
16,565. But had not the agents more power in selecting the men
some time ago than they have exercised lately?-Not so far as we
were concerned. I cannot speak for others.
16,566. When a man went to another agent for employment, being
in debt to Hay & Co., was it usual for that agent to enter the men's
debt to you in his books, in order to obtain a settlement of it for
you?-Not lately; but sometimes it has been done.
16,567. Was it done on the application of Messrs. Hay?-Yes.
16,568. Does the captain apply to you for some opinion as to the
qualifications of the men?-Yes, if he does not know them
himself.
16,569. You have told me that you have generally made yourself
pretty well acquainted with the men's abilities?-Yes.
16,570. Then I suppose only a certain proportion of each crew
shipped at Lerwick consists of men who have been in that
captain's employment previously, perhaps one third?-Sometimes
they had almost all been in the same ship before, but they changed
agents occasionally. Perhaps sometimes one half of them might
re-ship.
16,571. But very often the captain would secure one half or one
third of new hands?-Yes.
16,572. In that case you must be consulted a good deal about the
qualifications of the men?-Yes. I tell the master about them, so
far as I know; and in some cases, perhaps if he ships a man, that
man may be able to recommend another to him.
16,573. But I suppose the captain attaches considerable weight to
your recommendation?-Perhaps he does.
16,574. Have you any reason to doubt that he does?-I have not. I
would not recommend a man if I did not know him to be a good
hand.
16,575. Has a captain ever refused to follow your recommendation
and to take a man whom you had recommended?-When he had
plenty of men of his own, of course he would take no others than
them.
16,576. But when he was in want of men, did he generally follow
your recommendation?-Sometimes I have seen him in doubt
between two or three men whom I have recommended, and he
selected any one of the three that he liked himself.
16,577. If you recommended one man in preference to another,
have you ever seen him take a man of whom you disapproved?-
In some instances I have seen him take a man who had been
recommended to him by another that he had engaged, instead of
a man that I could recommend. The man had sailed with him
before, and he recommended another man with whom he was
acquainted, and the captain engaged him.
16,578. In that case he might suppose that the shipmate had a
more intimate knowledge of the man's abilities than you could
have from hearsay?-That is very likely.
16,579. But if there were no such influences as that, have you ever
known the captain refusing to follow your recommendation?-No.
If he asked me for good man, and I could bring him one and did it,
he took him.
16,580. Has any captain complained that you, or those acting for
Messrs. Hay & Co., had suggested men who were not preferable
on account of their abilities, but who were owing accounts, or
were likely to incur accounts to Messrs. Hay?-It is very seldom
that I had the chance of recommending men who were in debt to
us. I never studied that in recommending a man to a master.
16,581. Was that because you had so few accounts with the
men?-We generally had accounts with them all when they
went out but there were a few that we had no accounts with.
16,582. Have you any doubt that the men were under the
impression or had an understanding that they ought to get their
supplies and their outfit, to a certain extent at least, from the
agent who engaged them?-They expect that the agent will
supply them.
16,583. But does the agent expect that they will give him their
custom?-There is no force in that case.
16,584. I am not saying there is force, but does the agent expect
that?-We must provide for it, whether they want it or not.
16,585. What must you provide?-We must provide clothing for
the men in case they want it.
16,586. But does the agent expect that the men whom he engages
for the Greenland whale fishing will come to him for their outfit,
or part of it?-Yes, because they had generally done so; but they
have never been forced to do so.
16,587. I am not saying that they are forced, but does the agent
expect that?-Of course he does, and he is prepared for it.
16,588. Do the men know that he expects that?-I daresay they do.
16,589. Was not that the principal consideration in inducing the
agents to undertake to carry on the agency?-I cannot say what it
was in former times, because there was an agency in the house
before my time, and I came into it after it was established.
16,590. But is it not the case that you are giving up the business
because the 21/2 per cent. commission is an insufficient
remuneration for your trouble?-Yes, it is insufficient for
the trouble we have; and I daresay if it had not been for the
circumstance that the present masters are sons and. grandsons
to masters who had been coming to the house long ago, we would
have given it up sooner.
16,591. Have accounts for outfit and supplies for men employed in
the Greenland fishing become less in recent years than they were
ten or a dozen years ago?-I daresay in some cases they have.
16,592. Is it not the case that they have done so upon the whole?-
Yes, because there are not so many green hands taken now as there
were then.
16,593. You have found it necessary to restrict your credits to
them?-On the short voyages we have. A voyage of two months
is not like one of five or six months.
16,594. You have therefore lost part of the profit which formerly
accrued upon these agencies?-Of course if the outfits are less, the
profits must be less.
16,595. Is that the reason why you have found it necessary to give
up the business?-That is not the reason. It is because of the
trouble we had with them. I believe we have perhaps sold as much
to the men this year as we did when we had the agency.
16,596. Even when you had a great number of green hands?-
There are not many green hands going now, because the outfits
cannot be given to them. That has been the experience of the last
few years.
16,597. But, apart from green hands, is not the amount of out-takes
by these men less than it was ten or fifteen years ago?-With some
men it is as much, and with others far less.
16,598. Do you think that upon the whole it is less?-I have not
looked into that, and I could not be sure about it.
16,599. Have you any general impression about that matter?-
When there were some green hands going of course they required
a larger outfit than they require now.
16,600. I am putting the green hands out of view altogether; I am
referring to the able seamen. Do you think that their accounts
altogether are not less than they were formerly?-In some cases
they are.
16,601. Are they not less upon the average?-I daresay [Page 423]
they are, because men do not require so much now as they used to.
16,602. Is it not the case that you have been less willing to make
large advances to any class of seamen since the regulations of the
Board of Trade in 1867 or 1868?-We would give some men what
they required, and to others we would not.
16,603. Do you mean that to men you knew you would give what
they required?-Yes, but to strangers we would not.
16,604. Is that because your security in the case of strangers is
much less than it was formerly?-Yes.
16,605. Is not that one reason why you are giving it up?-No.
The chief reason is that the commission is small, and the trouble
is great. We cannot get all the men together at one time for
settlement, or else it would be soon done.
16,606. But if you had the same returns from the men's accounts
which you had formerly, would not that be sufficient remuneration
for your trouble?-It would not.
16,607. Would you require larger accounts now than you had
before, even at the most flourishing time?-No, not larger
accounts; but we would require a better commission.
16,608. But larger accounts would serve the same purpose, would
they not?-I don't know. We have so much trouble in bringing the
men together and getting them settled, that the commission is not
sufficient for it, and in fact our people wished to give it up in
1867.
16,609. In what respects is the trouble greater than it formerly
was?-Because the men don't come together, and we have
perhaps to go up with one and then with another, until we get
the whole crew discharged.
16,610. Do you mean that formerly you settled at your own
office?-Yes. We did so before the Board of Trade regulations
were adopted, and we could take the men at any hour in the day
and settle their counts with them; but when we have to go to the
Custom House, we can only do that in the Custom House hours,
and that entails a great deal of extra time and trouble.
16,611. I suppose that in the case of each ship that may involve a
dozen visits to the Custom House?-Possibly it may; sometimes
more and sometimes less. We try to get as many of the men
forward as possible when the ship arrives, if she comes to Lerwick.
16,612. Will each of these visits to the Custom House occupy an
hour?-I would not say that it would occupy an hour.
16,613. Could you do it in half an hour?-Possibly we might.
16,614. You would not have more than twenty visits to the Custom
House in the case of any ship?-I could not say the number. I
have known sometimes that we had to go to the Custom House
with one man, and when we came down to the office we found
another man ready, and we had just to return again.
16,615. You say in your statement that you are not aware of any
case where the men required to be compelled to come forward and
pay their accounts?-No. They have always come forward after
coming from the Custom House and paid their accounts.
16,616. I suppose the men understand that they are expected to pay
their accounts at that time?-Yes, when they get their money.
16,617. Is that the understanding upon which the advances are
made to them?-Yes, they know that.
16,618. What would be the consequence if they did not pay at that
time?-We would just have to take steps to get payment; that
would be the only consequence.
16,619. If a man declined to pay at that particular time, would you
have any objection to get him a berth next year?-We could not
refuse him, if the master chose to take him.
16,620. But would you help a man to get a berth if he was in debt
for the previous year?-I would not care much for that,
16,621. Could you not prevent him from getting access to the
captain along with the other men?-No. The place is open for
any one to come in, and I could not prevent him.
16,622. But he would have to apply directly to the captain?-Yes,
he would have to apply to the captain for a berth; but they all do
that.
16,623. But I understand the captain only takes the men who are
secured by you?-No; I never said that. The men come to the
place themselves, and they know the place as well as we do,
because it is always crowded with men, and the captain chooses
from among them, what men he wants.
16,624. Are there usually more men than berths?-Yes.
16,625. And I believe there is often a great crush to get into the
presence of the captain?-Yes, generally.
16,626. Do you tell me that a man who is in discredit with you,
and who has not your good word, or rather who is in your black
books, has any chance of getting a berth from a captain?-We
never had any experience of such a case, because the men have
always paid their accounts.
16,627. Don't you think they have done that under the
apprehension that they would not get a berth in the following
year, if they did not do so?-I don't know that.
16,628. Might not that be a reasonable explanation of the
punctuality with which they come down from the Custom
House and pay their accounts?-It might be, but I cannot say.
They never expressed anything of that kind to me and I have no
reason for thinking so. The men whom we trust are honest men,
and we knew they would pay their accounts. If we thought they
were not honest men, who would come down and pay their
accounts, we would not advance them.
16,629. Would you not give them advances in goods?-No. We
always give them the first month's advance in cash.
16,630. But you would not advance them goods if you thought
they would not come direct from the Custom House and pay their
accounts?-No, not unless they came on their return.
16,631. Have you any doubt that if the master of the ship and the
agent concurred in telling the men to go up to the Custom House at
once, and have their accounts settled, the men would attend to that
direction?-I have done that myself. I have asked the men on
board ship before they left it to remain in town until they were
discharged at the Custom House, and I could not get them to do so.
16,632. If you told them that you would decline to pay them
afterwards, would they not do so?-They knew we could not do
that. I remember once making the remark to the shipping master
that the law should be imperative upon the men as well as upon
the master or agent; and unless that is done I believe the system
will never be other than it is.
16,633. When did you tell the men to remain in town until they
were discharged?-I have done that several times in late years.
16,634. Did you fix a day when they were to attend?-They know
that they should do so within twenty-four hours. For instance if
they landed today, we would settle with them tomorrow.
16,635. Would you have any difficulty in doing that?-None.
16,636. Have you ever had any conversation with the men when
engaging them with regard to the outfit or supplies they wanted?-
Yes. I have had such conversations with them in the shop after
they were engaged. They generally go to the country after they are
engaged and come back again; there is a certain time allowed to
them.
16,637. Had you ever any such conversations with them before
they were engaged?-Not about supplies.
16,638. Or about outfit?-No. We don't know what they want
until after they are engaged.
16,639. Have you not asked them what they wanted, in order to
know?-No. I suppose they can hardly tell themselves until after
they begin to inquire.
16,640. But have you never had any conversation with them [Page
424] on the subject before engaging them?-We don't know
whether they would be engaged or not until after the engagement
was made.
16,641. Have you never had any conversation about what they
might want in the event of their being engaged?-I don't recollect
doing anything of that kind. It is generally afterwards that any
conversation takes place about supplies.
16,642. I suppose, as a matter of course, there is some
conversation about that after the men are engaged: they always
want something?-When they come to town again before they
sail they must have some warm clothing, because men going in
that employment require warmer clothing than in any other
climate.
16,643. How long is it after the men are engaged before they come
back?-They may come back next day, or two days afterwards, or
any time the minister fixes for sailing.
16,644. Does the vessel usually lie in Lerwick for some days?-I
have sometimes seen her sail on the following day, or sometimes
two or three days afterwards. The master fixes the time when the
men have to be on board, and they must all be in Lerwick, able to
go on board the same day.
16,645. So that in that case there is not much time to arrange about
outfit or supplies?-No; I have known men engaged on one day,
and go to sea the next.
16,646. Did you give any allotment notes?-We always paid them
in cash at the Shipping Office.
16,647. Did you generally give such notes?-Yes, on long
voyages, but on sealing voyages we did not.
16,648. Were these notes taken in name of the man's relations?-
Yes; of his wife, or father, or sister, or brother.
16,649. Were they not sometimes taken in the name of the agent
who was giving them supplies?-No; they were addressed to the
agent, to be paid by him.
16,650. But were they not also taken in the name of the agent or of
some of his clerks?-Not that I am aware of.
16,651. Was that never done by Hay & Co.?-Not to my
recollection.
16,652. Would you be surprised to learn that it had been done in
other houses in Lerwick?-It may have been done, but I cannot
tell.
16,653. In the conversations you have with the men about their
outfit or supplies, is it not usual to suggest what they should take,
and where they should get it?-No. We ask them what they want;
but sometimes, if it is a man we are doubtful about, we refuse to
give him all that he asks.
16,654. But if it is a man you are not doubtful about, do you
always ask him what he wants?-We have done that, but he
knows what he wants without being asked, and he takes what is
necessary.
16,655. Is there any other person here who wishes to make any
further statement, or to tender additional evidence?-[No answer.]
Then I adjourn the sittings in this place.
<Adjourned>.