<Present>-MR GUTHRIE.
<Mr. Guthrie>.-As I have been detained here longer than I
expected, owing to the state of the weather, I have held this
sitting to-day in order to examine some witnesses who were
formerly suggested to me by gentlemen in Lerwick, and whom
I was not able to call before closing the previous sittings, and
also some others who I think may be useful in supplementing the
evidence already taken.
Lerwick, February 5, 1872, Mrs. JOAN WINWICK or FORDYCE,
examined.
16,038. Do you live in Chromate Lane, Lerwick?-Yes.
16,039. Is your husband alive?-Yes. He is a pensioner. He was a
carpenter to trade, but he does nothing now.
16,040. Do you knit worsted work?-Yes, I knit, but for myself
only. I knit with my own wool, and sell the goods.
16,041. Have you never knitted with merchants' wool?-No.
16,042. To whom do you generally sell your hosiery?-I always
sold it to Mr. Robert Sinclair since he became a merchant. I
always knit haps or coarse shawls.
16,043. What do you pay for the worsted which you use in
knitting?-When I buy the worsted it is 2d. per hundred; but
when I buy the wool and spin it myself, it comes to be a great
deal dearer. We cannot get proper worsted to buy, and we have to
manufacture it with our own hands.
16,044. Is the worsted which you buy at 2d. per hundred the kind
which you use for a hap of ordinary quality?-Yes.
16,045. At what price do you sell a hap two yards in size made of
that worsted?-Perhaps about 10s.
16,046. Have you any of these haps in hand just now?-No.
16,047. Have you sold any lately?-No; I have not sold any this
winter. I have not been knitting this winter to sell. I have just
been doing things for my own family.
16,048. What else have you knitted besides haps?-I have knitted
nothing but haps for a good while. Since I could not see to do
finer work I have been spinning worsted and making frocks for
my husband, and stockings and things of that sort.
16,049. Where do you buy your worsted?-I have not bought
any worsted for a long time. I always bought the wool and spun
it myself, because I could not get the worsted to buy.
16,050. Where did you buy your wool?-I buy skins from the
women who sell the sheep, and get the wool ru'ed off the sheep
when they are killed.
16,051. Are there women who go about and sell wool in that
way?-They sell mutton, but they will sell wool to us when we
go to their houses and ask them for it.
16,052. Do these women buy the whole sheep?-Yes, they buy
them alive; and when they have killed them, they sell the mutton
to any person in the town who will buy it.
16,053. Are there many such women?-I suppose there are a few,
but I cannot say how many.
16,054. Is that the way in which many people get their supply of
wool for spinning?-I think it is, because we cannot get wool in
any other way.
16,055. How much wool do you buy at a time?-I have bought
10s. or 12s. worth at a time,-just the skin as I could get it.
16,056. How much do you think you pay for the wool per lb. in
that way?-I have seen it cost me 2s. and 16d. and 18d.; but it has
been higher of late since the wool became so dear.
16,057. Is not that a very high price for it?-Yes.
16,058. Is it not more commonly about 1s. per lb.?-Yes. When I
came to Lerwick it was 1s., 8d., and 6d.
16,059. Is it not still to be got at 1s. per lb.?-Perhaps it may be in
country places, where they have plenty of it; but I cannot get it for
1s. unless it is very coarse, and a great deal of refuse in it.
16,060. How much wool does it take to make a hap two yards
square?-About 2 lbs. That would be 16 hundreds or cuts.
16,061. Are you speaking all this time of a hap of the ordinary
quality?-Yes, the ordinary quality.
16,062. Do you know what a woman gets for knitting a hap of that
kind when it is given out?-I cannot say exactly; but I think they
give some knitters for plain work only 2d. per hundred, or perhaps
a little more. That is what they say they get for knitting plain
work.
16,063. Do they count the payment of the knitting by hundreds?-I
suppose some of them do, but I have never put out any to knit
myself, or taken any in to knit.
16,064. Then for a hap like that, if there were 16 hundreds in it,
the knitter would get only 2s. 8d. for the knitting?-Yes; but I
think that for knitting borders they get a little more. It is for plain
frocks that they say they get 2d. per hundred.
16,065. Are you always paid in goods for your work?-Mr.
Sinclair always gave me what I asked. When I asked a little
money I got it, and when I required goods for my family, such
as soap, soda, or tea, I got them too.
16,066. But I suppose it was understood that you were to be paid
in goods?-Yes, that was the custom of the place; but he always
trusted me with anything I wanted, if I happened to be due him
something at times.
[Page 408]
Lerwick, February 5, 1872, Mrs. ROSINA DUNCAN or SMITH,
examined.
16,067. Do you live in Lerwick?-Yes.
16,068. Is your husband alive?-Yes. He is turning an old man
now, but he was at the sea at one time.
16,069. Has he got a pension?-No.
16,070. Do you employ yourself in knitting?-I knit a little for my
own family.
16,071. Have you given up knitting for other people-Yes.
16,072. Did you knit for Mr. Sinclair at one time?-I sold him a
few haps last year.
16,073. Did you sell him a great number before that-I did not;
but when I had any little things I sold them to Mr. Joseph Leask,
and got money articles for them.
16,074. Did you ever sell so many as half a dozen to Sinclair?-I
cannot say, for I did not count them. The last one I sold was to
him.
16,075. What did you get for it?-12s.
16,076. How much wool was in it?-I cannot say, for I spun it
myself, and wrought it until it was done.
16,077. Do you not know how many cuts of worsted were in it?-
No; I did not count them.
16,078. What was the size of it?-I suppose it would be about two
yards.
16,079. Was it made of fine wool or ordinary wool?-It was just
the ordinary wool that is used for haps.
16,080. Were you paid in money or in goods for it?-I was paid
mostly in goods, but he gave me money without my asking for it.
16,081. How much money did you get?-1s. or so. I could not
exactly say how much, but he gave me what I required. I got the
goods which I required, and he gave me that money, and he also
gave me tea, which was the same as money, because if I had had to
buy it I would have had to pay for it.
16,082. Could you get money for the tea?-I did not sell it; I kept
it for my own use.
16,083. Did you ever sell anything that you got for hosiery?-No.
I always required anything I got for my own family.
Lerwick, February 5, 1872, GRACE SLATER, examined.
16,084. Are you a knitter in Lerwick?-Yes.
16,085. Do you do anything else?-I keep lodgers. They are
generally workmen, such as masons.
16,086. Do you knit a good deal?-No; all that I do in that way is
very trifling. It is generally fine veils that I knit.
16,087. Who do you sell them to?-Mr. Sinclair; I work for him;
he gives me the worsted. It is Scotch worsted that I get, but I don't
know the quality of it, nor the price.
16,088. Have you got any of these veils in hand just now?-Yes, I
have a few that I am knitting.
16,089. Do you knit with your own wool at all?-No, I only work
for him.
16,090. How much do you get for knitting one of these veils?-
From 16d. to 1s., according to the quality as it is coarse or fine.
16,091. Do you get more for knitting one of fine worsted than one
of coarse?-Yes.
16,092. Will you bring one of the veils that you are knitting just
now and let me see it?-Yes,
Lerwick, February 5, 1872, ELIZABETH MALCOMSON, recalled.
16,093. Do you live with your mother in Baker's Close,
Lerwick?-Yes.
16,094. What do you do?-I sometimes knit, and sometimes sew;
but I mostly knit. My mother knits sometimes, and does the
house-work.
16,095. Do you support yourself mostly by knitting?-Yes, almost
entirely.
16,096. What kind of knitting do you do?-Fine veils and shawls.
16,097. Are you paid for them in money or in goods?-Always in
goods.
16,098. Do you sometimes get a little money?-No, I never asked
for it.
16,099. Do you get money for your sewing?-Yes. I sew to
private people, and they always pay me in money.
16,100. Where do you buy your provisions?-From any shop I
like. I don't go to any one in particular.
16,101. Where do you get the money for that?-From my sewing.
16,102. Do you get all the money that you require for provisions
by your sewing?-No. We generally keep a lodger or two when
we can get them.
16,103. Would you not prefer to get some money for your
knitting?-Yes; but it never was the practice to ask for it,
and therefore I never thought of doing so.
16,104. Would you not be better off if you had money for your
knitting, which you could spend upon provisions?-I think I would
be; but I never thought of asking it, as it is not the usual thing.
16,105. What kind of goods do you get for your knitting?-Tea,
sugar, soft goods, groceries, or any kind of goods that are in the
shop.
16,106. Do you get most of the dress for yourself in that way?-
Yes.
16,107. Do you knit a greater number of articles than are sufficient
to supply yourself with dress?-Yes.
16,108. What do you do with them?-I buy anything that is
required for the house.
16,109. Do you sometimes get goods for your friends if they want
any?-No, I generally require all I get for myself.
16,110. You don't get provisions for your knitting?-No.
16,111. Do you get enough money for your sewing and from your
lodgers to supply you with provisions all the year round?-Yes; it
has always done so in time past.
16,112. Is there anybody living in family with you except your
mother?-No.
16,113. What is the usual price that you get for your fine
shawls?-We generally get 10s. or 12s., but that is not the
very finest worsted either.
16,114. Are these shawls knitted with the merchant's worsted?-
Yes.
16,115. It is always given out to you, and you keep an account?-
Yes.
16,116. Do you know what quality of worsted it is that you knit
one of these shawls with?-It is usually Shetland worsted. The
price of it is 31/2d., and some of it 4d. per cut; at least I would think
so, judging by the fineness of the worsted.
16,117. Have you sometimes bought worsted yourself?-Yes,
sometimes.
16,118. Have you bought it often enough to know the quality and
price?-Yes.
16,119. What size of shawl is it that you get 12s. for?-About 21/4
yards. That, is, 25 scores on each border, and there are four
borders in the square.
16,120. Then you could say quite positively that for a shawl of 25
scores, knitted with 31/2d. worsted, and measuring 21/4 yards, you
got 12s. in goods?-Yes.
16,121. Do you ever sell shawls to any persons except the
merchants?-No.
16,122. When did you last take any veils to the shop?-I think
it was the week before last. I got 9d. each for them; they were
knitted with Scotch wool. When they are coarse, there is less paid
for knitting than when they are fine.
16,123. Were these coarse veils?-No, they were ordinary quality.
The worsted was not the very coarsest.
16,124. Do you know what was the value of the worsted per
cut?-I cannot say.
16,125. Who did you sell them to?-To Mr. Robert Linklater.
16,126. Do you know what you would pay for them at the shop?-
I think it would be about 2s. or 2s. 6d.
16,127. Would you go and buy one of them and bring it to me
here?-Yes.
[Page 409]
Lerwick, February 5, 1872, GRACE SLATER, recalled.
16,128. [Produces veil.] Is that one of the veils you are knitting for
Mr. Sinclair just now?-Yes. It is his own worsted that I am
working it with. I think I will get 16d. for it. I have got that for
veils of the same quality.
Lerwick, February 5, 1872, ROBERT SINCLAIR, recalled.
16,129. Do you wish to make any explanation with regard to what
the witness Grace Slater has now said?-The only explanation I
have to make is, that the veil she has now produced belongs to the
same class of goods as that with regard to which Mr. Linklater and
I were previously examined. The veil which she has produced is
quite a good thing, but in the same class of goods there are a great
number of job articles which tear in the dressing.
16,130. What is the selling price of such veils?-From 2s. 6d. to
2s. 9d. That is the highest price we get for them.
16,131. What quantity of worsted is in one of them?-About 6d.
worth of worsted.
16,132. Is that two cuts of 3d. worsted?-No, it is mohair. But
there will be other veils of the same kind which will be worth not
more than 18d. or 20d., and therefore the profit which we get upon
one veil is no proof as to the amount of profit, if any, which is got
upon the whole.
16,133. What quantity of worsted is there in a veil like that?-
About 1/4 oz. The price of that worsted is about 36s. now, but I
paid 32s. 6d. for it. Taking it at 32s., that would be 2s. per oz.,
and therefore 1/4 oz. would be 6d.
16,134. How many bad lots might you have in an ordinary time
in such veils?-The only way of getting at that would be by
examining our books. This very season I had a lot of about 30
dozen veils, which cost me altogether about £45, and I sold them
for about the lot.
16,135. How did that happen?-Just because I could get no more
for them. I would have been very glad to have got more if I could.
I may mention that there is not 20 per cent. of these veils which
realize the price I have mentioned of 33s. per dozen, although they
all cost that price. Most of them run about 2s. 2d. or 2s., or
something like that.
Lerwick, February 5, 1872, ELIZABETH MALCOMSON, recalled.
16,136. [Produces black veil.] Have you bought this veil from Mr.
Linklater?-Yes. He says these veils sell at 18s. a dozen, or 1s.
6d. apiece; but this one is undressed, and therefore I only paid 1s.
41/2d. for it.
16,137. Is this one of the veils which you knitted, and for which
you got 9d.?-Yes.
16,138. Do you not know the value of the worsted required for
it?-No.
16,139. You said you know the value of the worsted in the shawls
you knit?-Yes.
16,140. Then how do you not happen to know the value of the
worsted in the veil?-Because I knitted them for myself in the one
case, and in the other I always got the worsted to knit them with.
Lerwick, February 5, 1872, ALEXANDER MUNRO, examined.
16,141. What are you?-I am second officer of Customs at the
port of Lerwick.
16,142. How long have you been in that position?-Fully five
years.
16,143. Were you here before it was usual to pay the seamen
engaged in the Greenland voyages at the Custom House
regularly?-No; I came here in the first year that the special
regulations came into effect-1867.
16,144. Did it come under your notice after you came here, that
the men who received their wages at the Custom House were
frequently indebted to the agents by whom they were engaged?-I
am not cognisant of the fact whether they were indebted or not.
16,145. Were you not aware that settlements were sometimes
made with the clerk of the agents, or the agents themselves, for
accounts due to them at the time when the men were receiving
their wages before the superintendent?-Yes, I understood so.
16,146. Was that frequent during the first year that you were
here?-Yes.
16,147. Were these settlements actually made in 1867 in the
Custom House?-There were deductions taken from the balances
shown to be due to the seamen, in addition to the deductions
specified in the agreement.
16,148. Did the superintendent interfere to prevent these
deductions from being made in his office?-Yes; the parties
were interfered with by the superintendent, and the practice
was stopped.
16,149. Was that in 1867 or subsequently?-I think it must have
been in 1869 or 1870.
16,150. Did the practice go on without interruption or objection
until that time?-Not without interruption. We tried to stop it, but
we did not succeed altogether until 1869 or 1870.
16,151. Since that time has any attempt been made, within your
knowledge, to make a deduction of that kind in the Custom
House?-Not so far as I am aware.
16,152. Have you been aware whether seamen have received the
money payable to them under deduction of the agent's account in
any case?-I could not positively say, but I think I have seen it
done.
16,153. Have you suspected that the seamen were receiving only a
part of what was really payable to them?-Yes.
16,154. What reason had you to suspect that?-Because I could
see them keeping the deduction off.
16,155. Is the money usually counted in presence of the
superintendent or of yourself?-Yes.
16,156. Has that always been so?-No. It should always be done,
but it has not been done at all times.
16,157. Is there sometimes a press of business which prevents
it?-Yes, sometimes; and you cannot always keep your eye
watching everybody.
16,158. Do the cases to which you refer, occur when there is a
press of business?-Occasionally.
16,159. Are you aware that seamen coming to receive their wages
at the Custom House have usually had a settlement with the agent
beforehand at his office?-I am not aware of that.
16,160. Have you found, in the course of your experience, whether
the seamen, when paid at the Custom House, generally know the
amount of their account at the agent's shop?-I am not aware of
that either.
16,161. Have you at any time heard the agent, or his clerk, while
settling with the seamen, or after settling with them, in presence of
the superintendent, remind them that they had to go down to his
office and pay their account?-I cannot say positively that I have
heard the agents say that to the men, but I know that it was an
understood thing that they should do so.
16,162. Is it not so now?-I fancy it is.
16,163. How did you know that it was understood?-I have
overheard the agent and the men talking about it between
themselves in the office. I could not exactly bring the words to
my remembrance which I have heard used, but I have seen cases
where a small balance might be due, and when the agent did not
have change to settle with a man, he said he would settle when he
came to settle the other account at the shop.
16,164. The matter has come under your notice in that way, so that
you have come to be aware that it is a usual thing for the men to go
down and pay their accounts [Page 410] after having been settled
with at the Custom House?-I should fancy it has.
16,165. Have you had anything to do with the engagement of
seamen?-Occasionally.
16,166. Are they ever engaged in presence of the
superintendent?-For foreign-going vessels they are
always engaged there.
16,167. Are they so engaged for the Greenland and sealing
vessels?-Yes.
16,168. Is the agent present then and the captain of the vessel?-
Yes.
16,169. Is the selection of the men usually left to the agent, or does
the master of the vessel exercise a choice?-I fancy the agent
collects the men and the master selects them out of the crowd.
16,170. Does the agent interfere with the selection?-I am not
aware. They are all selected before they come before us.
16,171. Have you noticed whether in recent years the number of
young hands engaged in the sealing and whaling voyages has been
less than it was when you first came to the office?-I have not
observed that.
16,172. Have you heard any of the men complain that they could
not get their wages paid when they wanted them?-I have heard
complaints with regard to the second payment of oil-money. The
men said the agent had not got his return, or something to that
effect, that he was not aware of the quantity being ascertained.
16,173. Is that the only complaint you have heard on the
subject?-I think so.
16,174. Do you know whether there was any difficulty or objection
on the part of the agents to comply with the regulations when they
were issued?-There was little bit of difficulty, and I have no
doubt there was little objection at the time.
16,175. What was the ground of it?-I cannot say, except that it
was troublesome.
16,176. Was there no objection made to you or in your
presence?-No; I cannot bring a case of that kind to
recollection.
16,177. Then what was the difficulty or objection that you refer
to?-I suppose it was the compulsion of bringing the men forward
to be discharged, and producing store-books, and all that.
16,178. Do you mean that the agents do not like to have the
settlement made in presence of the superintendent at all?-I don't
mean to say that exactly; but I mean that it gave them a good deal
of extra trouble, and it was sometimes disagreeable.
16,179. You have said that there was a good deal of difficulty
in getting them complied with at first: do you remember any
explanation or reason that was given by the agents for that?-The
first year I came here the master of each vessel had to get a
store-book, in which were entered the goods or whatever extra
stores might be supplied to the men during the voyage, and I have
known these books coming ashore signed by the master and the
men when they came into the agents' hands, as it proof of their
correctness. Then the shop goods which had been supplied to the
families of the men during their absence were entered in, but we
had to compel them to deduct these and delete the entries.
16,180. Was that a difficulty which you had in 1867?-Yes, the
first year.
16,181. Did you find it to exist after 1867?-No; we stopped it at
once.
16,182. Then in 1868 there was still a difficulty, as you have
already said, in getting the regulations enforced: what was the
difficulty then?-The only difficulty then was the agent deducting
his own account from the balance shown in the men's account, and
handing over the net balance only.
16,183. That did not appear in any written accounting that took
place before you?-No.
16,184. Have you seen that attempted so lately as 1870 or 1871?-
Not in 1871, I think. I rather think the last time was in 1870, but I
could not be positive.
16,185. Are the rules strictly observed now?-So far as we can
attend to them, they are.
16,186. Are you not able to attend to them?-Yes.
16,187. Then they are attended to?-Yes.
16,188. What did you mean by qualifying your answer, and saying,
so far as you could attend to them?-I meant by taking steps to
stop all these informalities.
16,189. But there are no informalities now?-No.
16,190. Is there no delay now in settling?-There is delay in
settling, most undoubtedly.
16,191. Is that not strictly prohibited by the regulations?-I don't
think it is. There are five days allowed for settling, according to
the Act; but here it takes five or six or seven or eight months.
16,192. What is the cause for that in your opinion?-I cannot say.
16,193. Have you any doubt that the men would come forward to
be settled with if they were instructed to do so by the agent and the
master of the ship?-I should think they would, and be paid within
a day or so after the ship's arrival. I think that would be far better
for all parties.
16,194. Are you aware whether there is any difficulty in making up
the statutory accounts of wages which justifies a delay of five or
six months in settling?-No. I think they can be made up in the
course of ten hours for any whaling crew.
16,195. But there may be a difficulty in making up the account at
the agent's shop, may there not?-I don't know. They might have
that prepared beforehand, if it was necessary.
16,196. Do you know whether the effect of the delay which so
occurs is to make the men incur larger accounts at the agent's
shop?-I am not aware of that.
16,197. Have you ever heard any statement from the men to the
effect that they had to go to the shop during that period of
delay?-I never did.
16,198. Do you think it is the fault of the men that the settlements
are so long delayed?-There is no doubt a fault on the part of the
men, because, if they go away to their homes in the distant islands,
there must necessarily be a difficulty in collecting them again.
16,199. But is it not the custom to let them away in the first
instance without directing them to come and receive their
wages?-I think so.
16,200. Do you know whether they have ever been strictly ordered
to attend for that purpose by the master of the ship?-Not to my
knowledge.
16,201. Where are the men usually landed from these whaling
vessels?-They are sometimes landed at the lighthouse, sometimes
at Scalloway, sometimes at Sumburgh Head, but most commonly
at Lerwick harbour.
16,202. Are nine out of every ten landed there?-No, but more the
one half of them are landed in Lerwick harbour.
Lerwick, February 5, 1872, Mrs. MARGARET SMITH or GIFFORD,
examined.
16,203. Do you live in Lerwick?-Yes.
16,204. Do you knit haps?-Yes; but only a few, because I am
getting old and weak, and I am not so able to work as I used to be.
16,205. Have you knitted lately for Mr. Sinclair?-I have knitted
for him for a long time. I think it is about a fortnight since I sold
my last hap to him. It was between 11/2 and 13/4 yards.
16,206. What kind of wool was it made of?-Just common wool
of different kinds-grey and black and white.
16,207. Was it worth about 2d. per hundred?-It would be worth
about that.
16,208. What did you sell it for?-6s.; that was what I commonly
got for these little haps.
16,209. Did you sell it for that price in goods?-I was to get
anything I wanted. I have something to get yet. I got tea and
soap, or anything I required, and I shall get the rest as I need it.
16,210. Was that about the ordinary price which you got for a hap
of that size and quality?-Yes. If I could make them bigger, I
would get more money, perhaps 10s., and from that down to 6s.
[Page 411]
16,211. How long have you been dealing with Mr. Sinclair?-I
have dealt with him from 1840 or 1845.
16,212. Have you always been paid by him in goods during that
time?-Yes, when I asked them; but if I asked any other thing I
got whatever I asked.
16,213. Have you bought articles for money in Mr. Sinclair's
shop?-It was not very often that he got any money from us; but
when I wanted anything from him, I found there was no difference
whether I paid for it in money or in goods.
16,214. Do you mean that you paid the same price for the goods
which you bought, whether you paid for them in money or in
hosiery?-Just the same; I never saw any difference.
16,215. Are there not two prices in Mr. Sinclair's shop?-Not so
far as I know; but I can only speak for myself.
Lerwick, February 5, 1872, WILLIAM GARRIOCK, examined.
16,216. Do you live in Sandsting parish?-Yes.
16,217. Are you serving in the Naval Reserve in Lerwick just
now?-Yes.
16,218. Have you been bred to the sea?-Yes.
16,219. Where have you been at sea?-I have gone to Greenland
and Davis Straits, for the most part.
16,220. Have you ever been at the Faroe fishing or at the ling
fishing?-No.
16,221. Have you been south?-Yes, I was south for a short time;
but I have generally gone to the seal or whale fishing since I was
able to go.
16,222. From what agents have you got your engagement?-From
Mr. Joseph Leask, Mr. George Reid Tait, and Messrs. Laurenson
& Co.
16,223. How long have you been doing that?-Since 1854. I have
been in Greenland almost every year since then.
16,224. Did you always get your outfit from the agent with whom
you were engaged?-Always.
16,225. And some supplies for your family besides?-Yes.
16,226. Did you keep an account in the agent's shop, from which
your family got what they wanted during your absence?-Yes.
16,227. Did your wife get all her supplies from Lerwick?-No; she
got most of them from shops in our own neighbourhood, because it
was a long distance to come to Lerwick; but sometimes she sent
here, and sometimes not.
16,228. Why did she send here for them?-Sometimes she had to
send here for money when she could not get money from her
neighbours.
16,229. Did she get money here whenever she wanted it?-Yes, so
far as ever I knew.
16,230. Did she have allotment notes?-Yes, towards the end of
the time, but not at first.
16,231. Did you always take allotment notes for her use while you
were absent?-I have done so lately.
16,232. Are these allotment notes taken in her name?-Yes; but
sometimes I have been so much indebted to the agent before I left,
that I had to leave the allotment note with him until he was paid.
16,233. Have you done that lately?-Yes.
16,234. Had you been in his debt before you engaged with him?-
No. I got into his debt at the time of engaging. I got a lot of things
from him then.
16,235. Did you leave your allotment note in his hands as a
security for the payment of these supplies?-Yes.
16,236. Was the note taken in the agent's name?-No; it was
taken in my wife's name, and she was supplied by him if she
required anything.
16,237. Who was the agent you engaged with last year?-Messrs.
Laurenson & Co. I also engaged with them the year before. The
year before that, I think I engaged with Mr. Joseph Leask.
16,238. In all these years did you run up a pretty large account at
the agent's shop?-Yes; I always had an account with the agent.
16,239. Did you settle that account before you went up to the
Custom House to be paid your wages?-No. Sometimes the agent
was at the Custom House to receive payment of his account there,
and sometimes I went down to his shop and paid him after I had
been paid myself.
16,240. But was the account settled in the book, and the amount
due by you to him ascertained before you went up to the Custom
House?-Yes.
16,241. Was that done always?-No, not of late.
16,242. Why did you get supplies from Lerwick when you could
have got them nearer home, without giving your wife the trouble
of sending so far for them?-Sometimes, perhaps, I could not get
credit from a neighbour.
16,243. Could your wife not have got money from the agent in
Lerwick by sending in her allotment note to him?-If I was in debt
to the agent, I could not expect him to advance money until he was
paid his debt; but I never saw an agent refusing money, even
although there was an account due to him.
16,244. Did you ever ask money and get it when there was an
account due?-Yes.
16,245. Do you mean that your wife asked for money when you
were away?-Yes.
16,246. Did she require it for any particular purpose when she
asked it in that way?-I cannot say.
16,247. Did you ever know of her asking for money in order to buy
supplies near home?-No, I never knew that.
16,248. Do you think she would have been likely to?-I don't
think it. I think if she had ever done it, I would have known.
16,249. Do you think she would have got the money if she had
asked it for that purpose?-I am sure she would.
16,250. Then why did she not do it instead of carrying her supplies
all the way from Lerwick?-I don't know as to that.
16,251. How far is it from Lerwick to your place?-I never heard
of it being measured, but I should say it is over twenty miles.
16,252. You say the agent keeps your allotment notes, even
although they are in name of your wife?-Yes, if I am indebted
to him.
16,253. Don't they require to be signed by your wife?-Not at
first.
16,254. But afterwards?-Yes; if she has a note, then of course she
has to sign it before she gets the money.
16,255. But she does not require to sign it when she gets supplies;
these are set down to the account?-Yes; she does not require to
sign it unless she is drawing her half-pay at the Custom House.
16,256. Has she ever drawn her half-pay, so long as you
remember?-Yes.
16,257. Is that long ago?-It is perhaps a couple of years ago.
16,258. How much of it did she draw then?-She drew half a
month's pay every month when I was away.
16,259. What did she do with that?-I suppose she required it.
16,260. Did she spend it at home or in Lerwick?-I cannot say.
16,261. Was the allotment note in the agent's hands at that
time?-No.
16,262. She had got the allotment note that year herself?-Yes.
16,263. You had sent it to her before you went away?-Yes.
16,264. Then at that time you had not run up a large account with
the agent?-Not very much.
16,265. Had you any account with the agent that year at all?-I
don't remember; I don't think it was very much.
16,266. There might have been a little for some articles of outfit,
perhaps?-Perhaps there was.
16,267. When you settle at the Custom House, are you ever told by
the agent's clerk who goes up to hand [Page 412] you the money,
that he expects you down at the shop to settle your account
there?-Yes; but I usually go first to the shop and see what my
account with the agent there is, and then I pay him immediately
afterwards, either at the Custom House or at the shop, as soon as
I am paid myself.
16,268. Are you expected to go down and pay your account at
once?-Yes.
16,269. Are you ever spoken to about going at once?-No, I have
never been told to go at once; but I understand it is my business to
pay it at once, as long as I am able to do it.
16,270. Is it expected that the men going on a Greenland voyage
are to take their supplies, partly at least, from the agent's shop?-I
don't know if it is expected or not. I suppose it is expected, but a
man may buy his outfit wherever he pleases.
16,271. Did you ever know a man buying it elsewhere than at the
agent's shop?-I have bought some articles elsewhere myself.
16,272. Did you ever buy the whole of your articles anywhere
else?-Yes.
16,273. Why did you buy any of them elsewhere?-I was not very
particular about where I went. If I had money in my hand I went
to any place that was most suitable, or where I could get the most
suitable articles.
16,274. Did you often do that?-Not often. I more frequently had
an account with the agent.
16,275. When you go to make an engagement in the agent's shop
for a voyage, are you sometimes asked if you want anything?-No,
I am never asked that, unless if I happen to be running an account
he may ask if have got all my things, or something like that.
16,276. Does he not usually ask you that?-I cannot say that he
does.
16,277. Is there any difficulty nowadays in getting berths in
Greenland ships?-Sometimes there is because there are not
many ships that come here.
16,278. Are there more men than berths?-Sometimes that is the
case.
16,279. When that is the case, what kind of men have the best
chance of being engaged?-I don't know.
16,280. Do you think a man who owes an account to the agent,
or who is to keep an account with him, has a better chance than
another?-I cannot say that he has.
16,281. Do you think the men have that impression?-I believe
they do have that impression; but whether it is a right impression
or not I cannot say.
16,282. Have you learned from some of the men themselves that
such an impression exists?-No, not from the men themselves.
16,283. Then how do you know that they think so?-I have no real
knowledge on the subject; only I know that is said to be the case.
16,284. Who says it?-I cannot mention any particular person that
I have heard it from. Perhaps when they see a man engaged for a
ship, when they do not have a chance themselves, they may think
there is some cause like that to account for it.
16,285. Then some of the men do think that they have a better
chance of a berth if they have an account with the agent?-I have
merely heard that said; I have no experience of it myself.
16,286. Do you think that if you were not to come down from the
Custom House at once and pay your account in the agent's shop,
you would have a chance of getting a berth from that agent next
year?-I believe I would.
16,287. Why do you think so?-Because, if I was due the agent an
account, he might perhaps think that I would make a better voyage
in another year, and that I might then be more able to pay him.
16,288. But do you think he would have anything to do with you
if you refused to pay your account to him at the settlement in
November: do you think in that case that you would have a chance
of getting another engagement from him in February or March?-I
suppose I would have a chance.
16,289. Would he not say that he would have nothing more to do
you, because you had not paid your previous account?-No; I
never saw that done.
16,290. Is that because you have always paid your account in
proper time?-I don't know; but I always have paid my account
when I could.
16,291. Did you ever know of any man who did not pay his
account to the agent as soon as he got his money at the Custom
House?-No, I never knew of any man who did not do that.
16,292. Did you ever hear that spoken of?-No; I never heard
about anything of that kind.
16,293. Did you never hear the men talk among themselves about
that matter?-No.
16,294. What do you think would happen if you did not go down at
once to the agent's shop and pay your account whenever you got
your money at the Custom House?-So far as I know, I don't think
anything would happen at all.
16,295. Do you think the agent would look after you?-I have
been due things myself for about a year but he never looked after
me. That was before I was paid at the Custom House.
16,296. Then you had settled with the agent in office on that
occasion?-Yes; and left a balance due.
16,297. Were you due that balance to the agent for twelve months
afterwards?-Yes.
16,298. Did the same agent get you a berth in a Greenland ship in
the following year?-No; I left that agent and went to another for
that year.
16,299. Did that other agent take the balance over and become
responsible for it?-Yes; it was brought into the next agent's
books.
16,300. Who was the agent who took over your debt in that
way?-I was once due an account in that way to Mr. George
Reid Tait, and I afterwards found it in Mr. Leask's books.
16,301. Did you not know of that until you found it in Mr. Leask's
books at settlement?-I knew I was due the account.
16,302 You knew you were due it to Mr. Tait but did you know
that it had been transferred to Mr. Leask until you found it in the
book?-No; I did not know that until then.
16,303. Were you surprised to find it charged in Mr. Leask's books
against you?-No; I was not surprised at all.
16,304. Did you expect to find it there?-No, not exactly; but of
course I would have paid it if I had been able.
16,305. Did that happen to you more than once?-No; only once,
to my recollection, in that way.
16,306. Did it ever happen to you in any other way-It happened
once in this way: that I supposed I was due an account to Mr.
Leask in one year, and I found the account standing in his books
against me next year.
16,307. Did you change your agent that year?-No.
16,308. How long is it since your account with Mr. Tait was
transferred to Mr. Leask?-I cannot say exactly, but I think it
will be more than twelve years ago.
16,309. Have you never had a balance against you since at
settlement?-No.
Lerwick, February 5, 1872, ROSS GEORGESON, examined.
16,310. Are you a seaman living at Scalloway?-Yes; I am skipper
of a Faroe smack.
16,311. In whose employment have you been lately?-Mr.
Leask's.
16,312. For how many years have you gone to the Faroe fishing?-
I have gone every year for about fifteen or sixteen years.
16,313. Are you now serving your time in the Naval Reserve?-
Yes.
[Page 413]
16,314. Have you always had an account in the books of Mr. Leask
when you were engaged in his smacks?-Yes.
16,315. Did you settle that account with him every year?-Yes.
16,316. Have you been employed in his service at any other part of
the year, except when you went to the Faroe fishing?-No; but
lately I have gone a voyage or two to the south with fish in winter.
16,317. Do your family get their supplies from Mr. Leask's shop in
Lerwick?-Yes.
16,318. All the year round?-No; only when it is convenient.
For instance, when we go round to Scalloway with the vessel, we
generally take a good stock of things with us, which helps us
through part of the season.
16,319. Do you not take goods across the country to Scalloway
sometimes when any of your family happen to be in Lerwick?-
Only very little.
16,320. Do you settle about December or January every year?-
Generally about the 1st of December.
16,321. Do you get the balance which is due to you then in
cash?-Yes.
16,322. Do you sometimes get advances in money during the
course of the year?-Yes; I get what I require.
16,323. How much do you generally get in money before the
settlement?-Generally between summer and winter I may run
an account of about £30 or £40 for myself and the vessel.
16,324. But what do you get in your private account?-Just what
money I require, and what I ask. I may perhaps ask £4 or £5 or £6
at a time, just as I need it.
16,325. Is it for any particular purpose that you ask for so much?-
No; there is no particular purpose ever mentioned.
16,326. Do you think you would get all the money that was due to
you at any time before settlement if you asked for it?-I have no
doubt of that; but there is generally an account run.
16,327. Do you take out goods in the course of the year when you
want them?-Yes, when it is convenient to get them to Scalloway.
16,328. Suppose you did not take out any goods at all, but wanted
to get the whole in cash, do you suppose you would get that?-
Yes.
16,329. Have you ever asked for it all in cash?-No; because I
leave my money along with Mr. Leask.
16,330. What do you mean by leaving your money along with
him?-I get the same interest for my money when it is in his
hands as I would get from the bank.
16,331. Then when you settle you don't always draw the whole
balance that is due to you?-No.
16,332. You leave it in Mr. Leask's hands, and get interest allowed
to you for it in your next account?-Yes.
16,333. Did you always have an account with him?-Yes.
16,334. Do all the men in the smacks keep accounts with the
owner of the smack for their supplies?-Yes, so far as I know.
16,335. Do they all get money when they ask for it?-I never
heard anything else. I never heard any man say that he had asked
for money and did not get it.
16,336 Do they generally ask for much money?-I don't know. I
suppose every man asks for what he requires, or according to what
he has to get.
16,337. Are they not expected to get their supplies at the
merchant's shop?-It is just as they like.
16,338. Of course it is just as they like, but are they not expected
to get a part of their supplies in the shop?-I suppose so. They
always do so.
16,339. Are there as many men to be had for the Faroe fishing as
are wanted to man the smacks?-Yes. There has been no scarcity
in time past.
16,340. Do you know of any men who go to the Faroe fishing and
draw money from the owner in the course of the season for the
support of their families, and who do not get any supplies at all?-
No. , They generally take their goods for the voyage from the
merchant, whether they take anything else or not; but I never knew
any men who did not take some supplies from him.
Lerwick, February 5, 1872, ARTHUR MOFFAT, examined.
16,341. Are you a seaman living at Lochside, Lerwick?-Yes.
16,342. Are you now serving in the Naval Reserve?- Yes.
16,343. Where have you been employed?-I have been going to
the seal and whale fishing.
16,344. Have you ever been at Faroe or at the ling fishing?-No.
16,345. What agents have you engaged with for the Greenland
voyage?-I have been out for the whole of them.
16,346. Did you always keep an account for supplies with the
agent who engaged you?-Yes.
16,347. Was that settled at his office before 1867?-Yes.
16,348. Since that year it has been settled at the Custom House?-
Yes.
16,349. Do you always go straight down from the Custom House
to the agent's office and pay your account?-Yes.
16,350. Are you expected to go straight down?-I don't know, but
I think it my duty to do so.
16,351. Are you expected to take some of your supplies from the
agent who engages you?-We just take them as we require them.
16,352. But if you require supplies or an outfit, are you expected
to take them from the agent who engages you?-Yes, we can do
nothing else but take them from him; we cannot go to a strange
shop for them, because they would not give them to us.
16,353. Why would they not give you credit at it strange shop?-
Because they do no business with us, and perhaps they would not
know us.
16,354. Would you not have your first month's pay in advance
with which to buy what you wanted?-Not very often, because I
don't take it out in that way.
16,355 But you could it?-Yes.
16,356. And if you had it you could get what you wanted at
another shop?-Yes.
16,357. When you go in to engage with an agent does he, or do his
shop-people, ask you if you want anything?-No.
16,358. Do you generally get an advance note?-Yes, we get it,
but we leave it with the agent; at least I do.
16,359. Why do you leave it with the agent?-Because I find the
half-pay too little for the support of my wife and family during my
absence. They require more supplies than that, and they get them
out of the agent's shop.
16,360. Has that been your practice for a long time?-It has.
16,361. Have you always engaged with the same agent for a
number of years back?-Yes, I have engaged with Mr. Leask
for some time.
16,362. Have you always got your supplies at his shop?-Yes.
16,363. You said you could not get credit anywhere else: is that
because Mr. Leask has the command of the money you are to
get?-No, it is not that, because we get the money if we want it.
16,364. You could get the money if you wanted it on an allotment
note, but not otherwise?-Yes.
16,3 65. Do you say that you could get a larger amount of supplies
at Mr. Leask's shop than your allotment note would pay for if you
had it?-I do.
16,366. Have you a balance to receive at the end of the year when
you settle with Mr. Leask?-Generally.
16,367. Are you never in his debt at settlement?-No.
[Page 414]
16,368. Does your wife get cash from Mr. Leask when she wants
it?-Yes.
16,369. How much does she generally get?-I don't know.
16,370. Did she ever get 5s. at a time?-Perhaps she got the whole
half-pay at a time if she wanted it, or the half of it.
16,371. Was that if she wanted it for any particular purpose, such
as for paying rent?-Yes, or any necessary thing.
16,372. But it was only for a necessary purpose that she got it?-I
suppose so.
16,373. Is it generally understood among the men in the whaling,
that they ought to deal with the agent who engages them for a
voyage?-No. We can deal with any person we like.
16,374. But don't they always deal with the agent who engages
them, taking their outfit and their supplies for home from him?-
Yes.
16,375. Do you think that if a man did not deal with the agent he
would be as likely to get a berth next year as if he had kept an
account with him?-Just the same; I never found any difference.
16,376. But did you ever go to another agent for your supplies than
the one who had engaged you?-No, not in that particular season;
but I have changed agents occasionally.
16,377. How long is it since you were engaged by another agent
than Mr. Leask?-Two years. I changed from Laurenson & Co.
to Mr. Leask then.
16,378. Why did you change?-Just to fall in with the ship that I
wanted to go in. That was my only reason.
16,379. Were you clear with Laurenson & Co. when you
changed?-Yes.
Lerwick, February 5, 1872, JAMES LAURENSON, examined.
16,380. Are you a seaman residing at Mews, in Dunrossness?-I
am.
16,381. Are you serving at present in the Naval Reserve?-Yes.
16,382. What trade have you been engaged in as a seaman?-I
have mostly been in the south.
16,383. Have you been in the Faroe fishing?-No.
16,384. Have you been at the ling fishing?-I was two years in the
ling fishing at Mews, about eight or nine years ago, for Mr. Robert
Mullay.
16,385. Did you keep accounts with him then for your supplies?-
Not for supplies, only for fishing material.
16,386. Did you get any advances of money from him?-I did not
ask for any; I did not want them at the time.
16,387. Would you have got advances of money if you had asked
for them when you were not taking supplies?-I expect I would.
16,388. But you did not want the money, and you did not ask for
it?-I did not ask for it.
Lerwick, February 5, 1872, ALEXANDER GOODLAD, examined.
16,389. What are you?-I am a seaman, and I live in Lerwick.
16,390. I understand you wish to make some statement about the
sealing and whaling voyages?-Yes. If I ask a half-pay note from
an agent, it cannot keep my family, and I am not much acquainted
with any person except the agent who will give me credit and
therefore I don't know where to get supplies for them in my
absence except through him.
16,391. What is the amount of your wages?-Usually 50s., and my
half-pay is usually 25s.
16,392. Do you commonly run an account with the agent?-Yes.
16,393. Is your reason for doing so that your halfpay is too
small?-Yes.
16,394. Did you ever try to get credit anywhere else except from
the agent who engaged you?-I have.
16,395. Were you refused?-Sometimes, but not always.
16,396. What reason was given for refusing you credit?-They
said they did not know me.
16,397. Was that by a merchant in Lerwick?-Yes.
16,398. Were you asked on these occasions whether you were
running an account elsewhere?-Yes; and I was told to go to the
agent's for what I wanted.
16,399. Do the tradesmen here expect that you will get your
supplies from the agent who engages you for the whaling
voyage?-Commonly they do.
16,400. And they don't care for giving credit to men who are
running an account with the agent?-No.
16,401. Were you running an account with the agent also at the
time when you applied for credit in that way?-No; I was clear
with the agent at that time.
16,402. Did you get no supplies from him at the beginning of the
voyage?-No; but I have sometimes got supplies from the agents
before I went on another voyage.
16,403. What merchant refused you credit in the way you have
mentioned?-It was some of them who did not know me in
Lerwick.
16,404. Did they refuse because they knew that the agent had the
command of your money, and could keep it for his own account if
he had one?-Yes.
16,405. Did they say so?-No, they did not make that statement
exactly; but they told me that when a man was getting a ship from
an agent he should go and get his things from him.
16,406. Did any merchant refuse to give you goods, and give you
that reason for his refusal?-Yes.
16,407. Was he an agent in the whaling trade?-No, he was not.
16,408. Had you an account at that time with any agent?-Yes.
16,409. I thought you said you had not?-I was done with the
agent, and had signed clear in his books.
16,410. What season of the year was that?-In February.
16,411. Do you engage then for the rising season?-I engage for it
in the month of March.
16,412. Do you then open an account with the agent for your
supplies?-Yes.
16,413. Then is it quite an understood thing that man who engages
with an agent for a Greenland voyage must get his supplies from
that agent's shop?-If his goods are as cheap and its good as any
other person's, they commonly take them from his shop; but if not,
they usually make a change with the first month's advance they
get, and buy what they want where they can get it cheapest and
best.
16,414. Did you ever do that?-Yes.
16,415. Do you always do it?-There are many things which the
agents do not keep, and therefore we have to go to different places
for what we want.
16,416. Do you get money from the agents for that purpose?-
Yes; we get our first month's advance on signing, and then they
will give us supplies in addition for two or three months I suppose,
or as much as we have a mind to take.
16,417. Have you ever been spoken to at the Custom House, when
you were getting your pay, about going down to the shop and
settling your account?-I commonly settle my account before I go
up to the Custom House.
16,418. But you don't pay your money until after you have been at
the Custom House?-No.
16,419. Have you ever been spoken to at the Custom House by the
agent, or his clerk, about going down to the office and paying the
money that was due?-Yes. I was told last year by Mr. Leask's
clerk, Mr. Jamieson, to go down and pay the balance which I was
due.
[Page 415]
16,420. Did he tell you that in the Custom House or at the
office?-At the office, when we got our account of wages.
16,421. That was before you went up to get your money at all?-
Yes.
16,422. He told you then to come back with it?-Yes; and to pay
the balance due.
16,423. Is not that always done when you go to settle your
account?-No.
16,424. Is it not often done?-No; only that was the time anything
of the kind had been said to me.
16,425. Did you ever hear it said to anybody else?-No.
<Adjourned>.