great alarm amongst the people, because they were afraid they
would be left to their own resources.
12,382. In consequence of that you continued to supply the
islanders?-Yes, we went on as before.
12,383. Was it previous to that that the last attempt was made to
trade in the island by outside traders?-I think so; I do not think
there has been anything of that sort attempted for several years.
12,384. Do you remember when any attempt of that kind was
made?-I cannot say. I remember hearing of some boats coming
in from Walls or Scalloway, I forget which.
12,385. Did you object to any one coming from Orkney?-No, not
in this generation. They came from Orkney above 80 years ago.
12,386. Since you sent in that paper, has any attempt been made by
the inhabitants of Foula to cure their fish themselves?-No; we
found it needless to have sent in that paper, because they had given
it up themselves, as it had not been paying them.
12,387. But that paper had the effect of making it quite clear to the
inhabitants of Foula that they must either give their fish to you
green, or you would remove your shop?-We would either have
their whole trade or none of it. It is a great risk to send vessels and
boats there, and part of their trade would not pay. I may say that
we supply goods there at the same price as we do at our shop at
Reawick.
12,388. The majority of the fishermen engaged in your ling
fishing, you have said, have their accounts at one or other of your
shops, and those at Foula and Sandness have no other shops within
reach?-Yes.
12,389. Is it not the case that many of the men have accounts and
take their supplies at Reawick, who live much more conveniently
for other dealers in the district?-Yes, we have accounts with
many people in the neighbourhood of other shops.
12,390. But the men come to you, I suppose, because they sell
their fish to you?-I don't know. For instance, we give very small
supplies to the Walls men. They deal a good deal in the shops in
their own neighbourhood, and we pay them for their fish in cash. I
have mentioned in my statement, that of £829, 19s. 1d., which was
the amount of their earnings, we paid them 18s. 41/2d. in cash at
settlement. These men lived from 8 to 10 miles distant from
Reawick, and with some of them we have no dealings in goods at
all.
12,391. Do men who live nearer Reawick take a greater amount of
supplies from you?-Yes.
12,392. Why do you not adopt, with these men on the mainland,
the same rule which you have laid down at Foula, that you must
have their whole dealings or none?-We don't require to do it
with the men on the mainland. They are at perfect liberty to deal
where they choose.
12,393. But you might lay down that rule if you pleased?-We
might; but I would not consider it fair to do so.
12,394. Would it be impracticable to carry it out?-I don't know.
I suppose it is done in some places in Shetland; but the men in our
neighbourhood have always been free to deal where they chose,
since we had anything to do with them, and we were always
prepared to pay them for their fish in money.
12,395. But, in point of fact, they have sometimes taken a very
large portion of their earnings in goods?-I think, when we give in
our schedules, it will be found that we have paid them more than
one half of their earnings in money.
12,396. Was it not the case formerly, that the amount paid in
goods was much larger than it has been for the last few years?-
I don't think so.
12,397. I understand you buy a considerable quantity of fish which
have been already cured by the crews themselves?-Yes. We
don't look upon these men as our fishermen. They are at perfect
liberty to sell their fish when they are cured, to any one they
please.
12,398. But, in point of fact, many of these crews are composed
of tenants upon your own or Mr. Umphray's property, or on
Melby?-Yes, a good many of the ling fishers are.
12,399. Are you aware whether these men have been invited to sell
their cured fish to other dealers than you?-Yes; I suppose they
have offers every year.
12,400. But they generally prefer to sell them to you?-They do.
We can always give them the best price, because we are exporters,
and buy from the merchants; and we have always given the men
the benefit of the highest price going.
12,401. Have you been told by them that they have been offered
a higher price than you paid them, but that they preferred
notwithstanding to sell to you?-No; I never knew of any case
of that sort.
12,402. I have been told today that some men in that district have
been willing to give a higher, or at least as high, a price as that
which you gave at the end of the season for cured fish, and that
they could not get the fishermen to give them the chance of buying
them at all: has that come within your knowledge?-I think that is
wrong. I was not present when these parties were examined
to-day; but I know that one of them near our station at Dale
offered the men this year £21 [Page 307] for their ling if they
would sell them, but they preferred just to put fish into our hands
without the price being stated, and we paid them £22 for the same
fish.
12,403. What was the current price this year?-The shipping price
for ling was £23, but these fish cured by the men themselves are
not equal to the fish cured by us or by the larger curers. They are
somewhat inferior, as they are cured in smaller quantities.
12,404. Were the men to whom that offer was made mostly tenants
of your farm, or on the Melby estate?-Not necessarily; but I think
the bulk of them must have been tenants on Melby.
12,405. Has any intimation ever been made to the tenants on that
estate that they ought to sell their fish to you?-Never.
12,406. Has the contrary been intimated to them by Dr. Scott or by
yourself?-It has always been given out that they were at perfect
freedom to fish where they chose.
12,407. In your statement about the Faroe fishing, you say that the
fishing could not be carried on if you were not to supply them,
especially as regards lads in their first and second year: is it the
case that lads at the Faroe fishing, in their first and second years,
are generally much more deeply in debt to the merchant than the
older men?-Yes; they require larger outfits, and they have not
had any means of earning money before with which to buy clothes.
12,408. Are these outfits necessarily obtained from the merchant
who owns the smack in which they sail?-We are obliged to
advance them to them. It is rather a risky thing for us sometimes,
but they cannot go to the fishing unless they have such supplies.
12,409. Still you can secure yourselves at settlement?-Yes, if
they make a fishing.
12,410. And if they don't make a fishing, they will probably
engage with you in the following year?-As a rule they do.
12,411. If they did not, you could take them to the Small-Debt
Court?-Of course; but we always prefer a free man to a man who
is in the book with balance against him.
12,412. Do you find that such a man fishes with more heart than a
man who is in debt?-Undoubtedly.
12,413. He thinks he is going to get something for himself, and not
merely something to pay off a debt?-For many years we have had
very few indebted men, so that I cannot say much about that.
12,414. In arranging with the crew of a smack for the year's
fishing, do you embody your agreement in writing?-Yes; it is a
stamped agreement. There is one for the crew of each smack, and
they are written out each year.
12,415. Do they differ materially in their details?-They are
all the same for the Faroe fishing. They have been altered from
year to year, according to circumstances, but not very much.
12,416. Does that agreement leave the whole power of
disposing of the produce and of fixing the price in the hands
of the fish-curer?-Not of fixing the price exactly. The men
are to be paid at the current price for the year. That is their
stipulation with us.
12,417. But the ascertainment of the current price is left entirely to
the merchant?-Yes. The merchants have to dispose of the fish,
and account for them to the men.
12,418. These agreements make the fishermen and the merchant
really partners or joint adventurers, so far as the fishing of the
season is concerned?-Of course they do.
12,419. But it leaves the merchant in the position of having the
sole power over the produce, both as to selling it and fixing the
price?-He has the power of completing the cure of it and of
selling it. The merchant has to take the risk in selling. If we were
to sell to a party who failed, we would still be responsible to the
men for the current price.
12,420. Is that expressed in the agreement?-I don't think it is
expressed in our agreement, but it is understood.
12,421. Is it not the case that the fishermen can only claim what is
really got for the fish?-No. If we were to sell them at half-price,
we would still be bound to pay the men the current rate at the end
of the season.
12,422. If you sold them for the current price, but failed to recover
that price from the buyer, would the fishermen have any recourse
against you?-Yes; we would have to pay them.
12,423. Has that been done frequently?-No. There was one
instance where we sold fish and got almost nothing for them, and
yet accounted to the men for the price. I think that was in 1867.
The party to whom we sold the fish stopped payment, and we only
got a small compromise.
12,424. Had you paid your fishermen before the failure?-I think
not; at least we knew of the loss before we settled with the
fishermen, but there never was any thought of not paying them.
We knew that we were responsible for the payment to the men,
under the terms of the agreement.
12,425. Then the agreement does lay the risk upon you?-Yes, it
does lay the risk upon us, although it does not expressly state
anything about a loss.
12,426. The other articles in the agreement provide for the amount
of food to be furnished by the owners?-Yes.
12,427. And a scale of victualling if the men go to Iceland?-No,
we have nothing about that. Our fishermen are all partners to the
end of the season. We do not pay them in wages at all.
12,428. Are there not sometimes special stipulations for that
event?-Other owners sometimes send out their vessels on wages,
but then it is another agreement altogether that is entered into.
12,429. What are the other conditions in your agreement?-The
owners bind themselves to find the ship, and everything relating to
her; to provide the coals necessary for the voyage; and to give the
men an allowance of 8 lbs. of bread per week. The men, on the
other side, agree to accept of a certain proportion of the fishing:
one half, after deducting certain items for salting and curing the
fish, in full of wages, or as their interest in the affair; and they also
provide bait. The details of the agreement are given in the
statement I have produced.
12,430. You say that sixty-three tons of your cure is from crews
who cure their own fish and deliver them at one time at the end of
the curing season; and these, of course, as you have already said,
would be sold at a rather lower price than fish of your own
cure?-Yes. They are never equal to our own cure; indeed they
cannot be, from want of skill; and from the fish being cured in
very small quantities, they can never be properly pressed.
12,431. Do you know of any case in which a trader in Walls
attempted some time ago to introduce the practice of buying fish,
and paying for them in cash at delivery?-Yes, I have heard of
that, I think, in more cases than one.
12,432. Have you tried it yourself?-No, I don't think we have.
Sometimes, if we buy small quantities from the fishermen, we pay
them in cash if they wish it so.
12,433. But you have not known any case in which that has been
attempted throughout the whole year?-I think the men could
always sell for cash at any season if they chose.
12,434. Could they sell in that way to you?-Yes, to me or to any
of the dealers in Walls. We would be quite prepared to take their
fish and to pay them cash, but we would pay for them at such a
safe price that they would not sell them.
12,435. Have you known of any dealer other than yourself who has
attempted to introduce that system?-I know that the Walls people
have offered to buy from the fishermen generally, and to pay cash
if they chose, and they have probably paid some.
12,436. Do you know why they have not succeeded in carrying out
that system?-They could not agree with the men about the price.
They would not give so high a price in cash as the men expected.
12,437. You say that last year you employed forty beach boys from
thirteen to seventeen years of age, all [Page 308] of whom had
cash to get, and none of whom are in advance on the coming
season: is that a usual state of things with the people employed in
curing?-It is with us.
12,438. But I suppose that, in fact, they all take supplies from your
stores during the season?-Yes, more or less. They must have
meal to live upon, at any rate.
12,439. And they get that as they want it from you in the course of
the season?-Yes.
12,440. Are they paid by beach fees?-Yes; they are paid by a
certain sum, which is settled for at the end of the season.
12,441. Are any of them paid by weekly wages?-We have a
number of people employed in curing fish, who are paid either
daily or weekly-just occasional hands; and we sometimes have to
put out quantities of fish to be cured by contract. These are paid
for in cash as soon as the fish are put into the store and weighed.
12,442. In that case, are advances made at your store to the parties
so employed?-Yes. We sometimes advance money while the
work is going on, but never goods.
12,443. If they want money, do they come to you with a line
from the contractor?-We have never given it in that way. If the
contractor requires some money to pay the people who are
working for him, he comes for it himself.
12,444. Have you any dealings at all with the parties employed
under your contractor, or do you make him transact all the
necessary business with them?-We transact with him entirely:
we have nothing to do with the parties under him.
12,445. Do you also employ parties in the curing at weekly wages
yourselves?-Yes. At Reawick and at all the stations we have
extra hands on when there is much to do.
12,446. Do you find that these parties require to come to you for
supplies before the weekly pay-day?-There are some cases of
that kind, I daresay.
12,447. Is it not the case, in the majority of cases, that you have to
give them supplies?-The most of our payments in that way are in
cash, and they are made every week or ten days.
12,448. Is Saturday your pay-day?-We have no fixed pay-day for
the people employed among the fish.
12,449. If they require to come for, advances in the meantime, in
what way are these given out?-Most of our work in that way is
done at Scalloway, where we have no shop, and we could not give
them goods. They get their money when their work is done every
week, or at all events within the fortnight.
12,450. Do they not get advances of money in the interim?-No,
not the daily hands. The contractors whom I mentioned before
sometimes get some money.
12,451. But the daily hands don't get any money until the
settlement?-Not as a rule. I may perhaps give them a few
shillings between the pays, but that is not common thing; they
don't require it.
12,452. If they want supplies in the meantime, have you any idea
how they get them?-I have no doubt they can get credit from the
shops in Scalloway.
12,453. Do you know whether they have a practice of applying to
your manager there for a line or a certificate, to the effect that they
have wages to receive in order to satisfy the shopkeeper?-No; I
don't think they do that.
12,454. Have you ever known of such cases?-I don't remember
of any case, and I don't think there has ever been a case of the
kind.
12,455. Do you know whether these people run accounts with the
shopkeepers in Scalloway?-I know that often what they have to
get on the Saturday night is partly forestalled in the shops.
12,456. Have they told you that, or how have you found it out?-I
have found out from the shops that they were giving them credit.
12,457. Have the shopkeepers applied to you to stop their
wages?-No; I would not stand that. I have always paid the
money over to the people themselves, and if they have run
accounts they have to go themselves and pay them.
12,458. Have you found a tendency among the people employed
by you to run into debt in that way at Scalloway?-Yes.
12,459. Do you not think that is due to the system which prevails
in the country, of running accounts instead of paying in ready
money?-I cannot say.
12,460. Would you say that a party who was engaged to work to
you for a week at curing, feels that it is a natural thing when he has
money to receive at the end of the week, to have it all exhausted
by his out-takes from the shop before it is due?-I don't know if it
is the feeling; but it is just a custom they have got into, and a bad
custom.
12,461. Then there is such a tendency to get into debt before the
pay is due even when it is paid in cash?-Yes, there is a tendency
in that way.
12,462. You say that you found the hosiery trade a losing one for
you, but convenient for your customers?-Yes; that is the only
reason why we have anything to do with it.
12,463. Is it convenient for your customers because they get
supplies of goods for hosiery at your shop, without the necessity
of taking the hosiery to another market and selling it?-Yes.
When they come to us with money and eggs, and produce of that
kind, they may have some hosiery with them too; and we cannot
very well turn them away, and cause them to go a great distance
with it.
12,464. Do you fix the price of the hosiery?-Yes.
12,465. You do not require to take it at a price which would not
remunerate yourselves?-No. Of course, if they asked more than
we were inclined to give, they would have to take it away.
12,466. Have you any dealings in kelp?-None. There is some
kelp on Dr. Scott's property, but Mr. Adie purchases it.
12,467. Does he pay a rent to Mr. Scott for the kelp shores?-He
pays a trifle; it is not much.
12,468. You say you have a certain number of boats engaged in
what is called the home cod fishing?-Yes, they are small smacks.
12,469. You are almost the only people who are still engaged in
that business?-Yes.
12,470. What number of vessels do you employ in that way?-We
had five out last year; we used to have ten or twelve.
12,471. What would be the number of the crews in these five
vessels?-They would average nine hands.
12,472. How long in the year are they engaged in that fishing?-
For a little more than three months, from 1st May to 15th August.
The men in that fishing go on shares, and are settled with in the
same way as those on board the Faroe smacks. The arrangement
as to the division is different in these vessels The crew get
seven-twelfths of the earnings, and we don't find bread or coals.
12,473. Do these men come home oftener than the Faroe
fishers?-Yes; they come home weekly. I now produce a
settlement with one of these vessels. [Produces it.]
12,474. That shows that, as nearly as possible, four-fifths of the
whole earnings were paid in cash?-Yes. Two of these men are
our tenants. I think we had three of Mr. Hay's tenants in that
vessel. It is a mixed crew; we never ask whose property they are
on when we engage them.
12,475. You say in your statement that your firm has no separate
accounts for the wife and none with the other members of the
family, unless when they are working or fishing for themselves: is
that when the other members of the family are fishermen or beach
boys?-Yes.
12,476. Or when the wife is engaged in curing?-We have no
married women employed in any branch of our business.
12,477. Do you keep any account with women engaged in the
curing?-No. These women are only employed by the day.
12,478. I believe that you are yourself a skilful boatman, and
acquainted with the fishing in all its details? Do you think it
possible in Shetland to prosecute the [Page 309] winter fishing
to a greater extent than at present, if boats of a superior class were
introduced?-Not to any great extent. I have no doubt the fishing
will increase. It is increasing, and will increase, and the boats will
be improved
12,479. I presume you would be glad to continue curing to as
large an extent in winter as in summer, if you could get the fish
delivered to you?-Yes. I think there are facilities all round
Shetland for that and they could sell their fish any day. It is not
for the want of a market that the men don't fish. The great barrier
is the weather.
12,480. Would the weather be as great a barrier if the boats were
of an improved class?-The men could not have a better class of
boats than they have.
12,481. Would decked boats not enable them to fish all the
winter?-No.
12,482. What is the difference in that respect between Shetland
and the east coast of Scotland?-We have a heavier sea, and more
uncertain weather here. Our present boats can go out in a lull, and
some more quickly ashore when the weather gets rough; but the
heavier decked vessels could not do that. In order to fish with
decked vessels, the men would require to remain at sea in good
and bad weather.
12,483. Would that be impracticable here?-I think so. It would
not pay.
12,484. Would that be from want of a market?-No; it would be
because there was not enough good weather, and the men would
not catch fish enough. Some of the welled smacks have gone out
in winter, and gone up to Grimsby with their fish, and that has paid
occasionally.
12,485. Are there vessels of that class in use in Shetland?-Yes,
several. Mr. Harrison had one up in December which succeeded
very well, and there is one out from Scalloway just now at Faroe;
but it is not considered that it will be extensively or generally
continued, the fishing is so precarious.
12,486. Are the men unwilling to engage in the winter fishing in
any of these modes?-I think it will be very difficult to get many
men to go to it.
12,487. In other places the winter fishing with decked vessels is
practised all winter, is it not?-On the coast of England it is.
12,488. The men there go to the Dogger Bank mostly?-Yes.
12,489. Is there any reason why that sort of fishing cannot be
practised in Shetland?-There are many reasons why it cannot be
done. There is the heavy sea, and the deep water, and the nature of
the fishing grounds.
12,490. Would long-line fishing be impracticable on the banks of
Shetland?-In winter it would. It could not be done in these
vessels.
12,495. Is that owing to the nature of the ground, or for what
reason?-It is owing to the depth of the water and the strong tides.
12,492. Has it ever been tried to set lines from these decked
vessels?-In summer it has been tried, and it has generally failed.
It has always been discontinued.
12,493. I believe it is necessary to set lines with rowing vessels?-
Yes; the fishermen consider that to be the safest way, after all.
12,494. But they do sail out their lines sometimes, do they not?-
Yes; and that saves them the trouble of pulling.
12,495. Is it only recently that that practice has been introduced?-
I think so. I have not heard of it until lately; but I believe it is now
done in consequence of larger boats being used than were in use at
one time.
12,496. What is the amount of the poor-rate in the parish of
Sandsting?-It is 2s. 4d. on the landlord, and the same on the
tenant.
12,497. Is not that rather above the average?-It is. In Walls it is
1s. 10d. Alexander Wallace is the inspector in Sandsting, and Mr.
Umphray is the chairman of the Board.
12,498. Does Wallace live in Sandsting?-Yes; on the Walls road.
12,499. How long has he been inspector?-I could not say. I think
six or eight years, or more than that.
12,500. Where does he pay the paupers' allowances?-I think he
used to go to the parish church at one time, but latterly, I believe,
he has paid them at his own house.
12,501. Who is the inspector in Walls?-James Georgeson.
12,502. Does he also pay the paupers at his own house?-Yes, so
far as I know.
12,503. Has there ever been a practice of paying them at
Reawick?-There are a few, I think five or six, in that district
whom our shopman has been in the habit of paying. Wallace
sends their pay to him, as they live five or six miles from his
(Wallace's) house.
12,504. Are these paupers always paid in cash?-Yes.
12,505. Are they paid in the shop?-I suppose so. There was some
inquiry about that lately. I asked the man about it, and he said he
invariably paid them in cash; but we put a stop to it, as the thing
was not considered to be regular. It had just been done to save the
inspector trouble, or to save the people from going so far for their
money.
12,506. Have you any knowledge as to how men are employed
here for the Greenland fishery?-I am not engaged in that business
myself, but I know pretty well how the thing goes on.
12,507. Are there any men from your district employed in that
fishery?-There are a few who go to it from some little distance
from where I live.
12,508. Do the men employed in that fishing require a larger and
more expensive outfit than those who are employed in other
fishings or in other seafaring pursuits?-They require warmer
clothing. I think that is the only difference.
12,509. Do you suppose that the first month's wages which a lad
going to that fishing gets is sufficient to provide him with the
necessary outfit?-Certainly not, and I know that in consequence
of that very few lads are now going to Greenland. They cannot be
fitted out now as they used to be before the new Board of Trade
regulations were issued.
12,510. Have you that knowledge from the statements of the lads
in your neighbourhood?-Yes, I know it from the men and the lads
who go to the fishing. It is coming to be mostly men who are
taken for these voyages.
12,511. Is that because the men have already got outfits?-Yes.
They could not take lads who are insufficiently clothed; while the
men are better clothed, and are more able to stand the severity of
the climate. That fishing used to be a nursery for our young men,
bringing them up to be able to take their position in the merchant
service; but now it is not, and cannot be.
12,512. Do you think the result of the Board of Trade regulations
has been to prevent agents in Lerwick from giving the young men
credit for their outfits?-I think that must have been the result; and
it has prevented so many young men from being employed as there
used to be.
12,513. Have you known of any young men going to Greenland
with insufficient outfits in consequence of that difficulty in getting
credit?-I cannot say that I have known of any particular case; but
I should suppose it was very likely to have happened.
12,514. Do you know that, in point of fact, young men engaging to
go to Greenland cannot get any reasonable amount of credit from
an agent in Lerwick?-Yes, I know that to be the fact; and I also
know it to be the fact that there are very few young men now going
there.
12,515. Can you tell me of any young man who has said to you
that he would have gone to Greenland if he could have got an
outfit?-No, I cannot.
12,516. Has that ever been said to you by any young man in
Shetland?-I don't know that I ever put the question to any one.
12,517. Has anybody made such a statement to you without you
having put the question?-No. I have asked some of the men how
it was that there were so [Page 310] very few green hands now
going to Greenland, and they said the young men and lads could
not be fitted out now as they were before,-that they could only
get one month's advance, and that if their wages were only 16s. or
20s. a month, that would only buy them a pair of boots, and they
had nothing for clothing.
12,518. In what way did that question suggest itself to your
mind?-I think it was from noticing the fact of so many young
lads pressing in to go to Faroe. We found more lads wishing
employment at Faroe than we could find room for, and on
making inquiry I found that that was the reason.
12,519. Why is it that the agents do not give the same credit as
they gave before?-I think it must be in consequence of the Board
of Trade regulations.
12,520. But these regulations do not interfere directly with the
giving of credit; they only provide that the payment of wages shall
take place in presence of the superintendent at the Custom House
and shall be in cash?-I am aware of that.
12,521. The agent has, with an honest man, the same security for
payment of his account that he had before, only the wages cannot
be retained by him at settlement?-It must be from the fact that
the wages cannot be retained, that the credit has been limited.
12,522. Do you think it would be an expedient thing that these
young men should be allowed to incur an account for their outfit,
and that the agent furnishing that outfit should be in a position to
retain the wages due at the end of the voyage?-I would not give
an opinion upon that point. Perhaps it is better as it is.
12,523. Do you wish to make any remarks upon the Report by
Mr. Hamilton to the Board of Trade, which was printed in the
appendix to the previous report of the Commissioners?-I think
that report is manifestly incorrect in what Mr. Hamilton says in
regard to the Shetland system generally. He says, 'Almost every
fisherman in the islands is in debt to some shopkeeper; and not
only is the head of the family in debt, but frequently his wife also
and other members of his family, down to children of twelve or
fourteen years of age, for whom the shopkeeper opens separate
accounts in his books.' I don't know where Mr. Hamilton could
have got that information from.
12,524. Your own firm is an exception as regards the women,
because you have no transactions with them?-It is surely not an
exception. I think it must be the rule. I don't believe that such a
system exists generally, as that of keeping separate accounts for a
husband and wife.
12,525. But the younger members of the family may have separate
accounts, and a few of them have separate accounts even in your
business?-They have, if they are employed by us. A man may
have five or six sons, every one fishing and getting his own share
and having his own account.
12,526. May some of these sons be as young as twelve or fourteen
years of age?-They begin about fourteen to go to the fishing, as
well as to go to the beach. It appears to me that Mr. Hamilton's
report has been rounded very much on hearsay, and on opinions
which he had formed when he was a boy.
12,527. Was the state of things different in Shetland when he was
a boy from what it is now?-Yes, it was a good deal different; I
think we are improving. I think there are more of the fishermen
now who are free to deal as they choose. I think they have a much
greater outfit in every way for fishing, and much better returns;
and the fishermen, as a class, are living better and wearing better
than they did in those days.
12,528. Is there anything else in the report that you wish to
correct?-I consider that the report is altogether wrong.
12,529. I should like specific statements about that, because
gentlemen have come to contradict the report before and have
gone through it sentence by sentence?-I consider that Mr.
Hamilton was going out of his way altogether in making that
report.
12,530. Still it might be correct, for all that?-It might be; but it
appears to have some weight as coming from the Board of Trade,
whereas Mr. Hamilton could have no opportunity of knowing these
things from personal knowledge or of judging for himself.
12,531. The point on which he had been directed to inquire was as
to the official discharge of Shetland seamen after voyages made in
whaling vessels?-Yes; and if he had confined himself to that, he
would have been doing what was quite right; but all these general
remarks about the Shetland System are very wide of the mark,
and must have been got from hearsay, because many of them are
incorrect. He says, for instance, 'Any man who carried his custom
to any other shop than to that of the agent employing him would
run the risk of being a marked man, not only with that particular
agent, but also with all the others, among whom the news of his
contumacy would soon spread; and as there are more men than
there are berths, he will probably never get any employment
again.' I look upon that as an ill-natured, unfounded remark.
12,532. Was there any foundation for that in time past?-I don't
believe there was any foundation for such a statement at any time.
12,533. Have you any personal knowledge that enables you to
contradict that statement, or have you any knowledge of the matter
different from the hearsay knowledge which you attribute to Mr.
Hamilton?-I am much better able to judge of it, because I have
been mixed up with these men every day for the last thirty years,
and if such a thing had taken place I would have heard of it.
12,534. Have you ever made any inquiry among them as to
whether that statement was correct?-I have made the most
minute inquiries as to how they were treated, and they volunteered
statements about how they got on, and why they went to one agent
rather than to another.
12,535. What sort of reasons did they give for that?-Of course
they had their own reasons for preferring one agent to another.
For instance one man thought he got his supplies cheaper from a
particular agent, and he went to him.
12,536. Did the reasons they gave for preferring one agent to
another, all assume that the man got his supplies from the agent
who engaged him?-I have been speaking now of what took place
in the trade formerly. For some years back I have not heard
anything about supplies at all. They say they get their month's
advance now in money.
12,537. Do you know whether, in point of fact, the men do get
their supplies from the agent still?-I believe they get them to a
very small extent.
12,538. You mean to a small extent, compared with what was the
case in former times?-I believe so.
12,539. Is that belief rounded upon the statements of the men
themselves, or is it simply from hearsay?-I have been told so by
the men.
12,540. Have they told you that they get smaller outfits now than
they did formerly, or smaller supplies from their agents?-The
class of men who go now to that fishing are not the same as they
used to be; they do not require the supplies which the green hands
used to get.
12,541. You mean that they do not require so large outfits?-Yes.
12,542. But if they are men with families they probably require
much larger supplies for their families during their absence. I
suppose they get these supplies from the agents?-I know that in
some cases they do; but I know that my firm supplies many of the
families of men who go to Greenland, and they pay us in money
when they come back and have got their settlement.
12,543. Has your firm a larger business in the way of supplying the
families of fishermen who go to Greenland than it formerly had
before these regulations of the Board of Trade were introduced?-
I think so. I think that formerly the men confined themselves more
to the agents for their supplies.
12,544. Are you aware whether at any time the men were under
any obligation to ship with one agent more than with another for
the Greenland voyage: have you [Page 311] heard anything to that
effect from the men?-No. I never heard them speak about being
compelled in any way with regard to the Greenland trade.
12,545. I do not speak of compulsion; but have you heard of
them being expected or obliged in any way, or of influence being
used?-I never heard of them being influenced in any way. I don't
think that was ever the practice with regard to the Greenland trade.
12,546. Is there any other passage in the report to which you wish
to refer?-Mr. Hamilton says, 'This is merely one phase of the
truck system in Shetland, on which are also based arrangements
with the crews of coasting and home trade vessels, of the few
foreign going vessels, of the Faroe and Iceland fishing vessels,
and of the large fleet of fishing boats. Some of the seamen and
fishermen feel, and bitterly complain of, the bondage of the
system; but, as a rule, the character and habits of the natives have
become so assimilated to it, that they are either unconscious of
its existence, or are reconciled to its working, that they would
probably themselves be averse to any change; for although they
may have no option but to work for one master at such
remuneration in goods as he may see fit to give, yet they feel that
in bad seasons he will not let them starve.' That is a fearfully
overdrawn picture.
12,547. I suppose your firm has often had occasion to make large
advances in a bad season in order to carry your fishermen
through?-Yes.
12,548. And these advances have been repaid by the men from
the produce of the following seasons?-Yes; but I deny that
there are such hardships as are spoken of here. We have often
had to advance a fisherman for perhaps two years' rent, and he
had to remain in debt. His fishing was not sufficient to meet his
requirements.
12,549. In that case the man would usually continue to fish for
you?-Yes. He usually continues until he has wrought off his
debt.
12,550. Have you known men in that position who attempted to
dispose of their fish to other employers?-I cannot say that I have.
12,551. Have they always continued with you until their debt was
wiped off?-They continued from year year at any rate.
12,552. But they did not leave you in these circumstances?-No;
as a class, they are much too honest for that.
12,553. Have you ever had an occasion, when a man came to you
from another employer, to become responsible to that employer
for a debt due by the fisherman to him?-No, I don't think we ever
undertook anything of that kind.
12,554. Have you been in the converse position of obtaining
payment of a debt due to you from a fisherman who changed his
employment?-I don't recollect any case of the kind.
12,555. Does any arrangement exist between your firm and any
other by which you undertake the debts of that firm, and they
undertake yours in such cases?-No; we have never taken
fishermen into our employment under such circumstances. Then
Mr. Hamilton says: 'The employer has unlimited opportunity of
appropriating to himself all the result of their labour, leaving to
them only so much as is absolutely necessary to prevent them from
starving.' That is a state of things which I know nothing about,
and I don't believe it exists.
12,556. If a merchant has full power to fix the price of the fish,
and if he also fixes the price at which he sells his goods, and the
fisherman has no other place where he can get credit for the
supplies which are necessary for his existence, is it not
conceivable that that state of matters might be abused?-It is
conceivable, and there may be a few cases of that kind; but to
speak of that as being the rule, is not correct.
12,557. Have you ever heard complaints from the men engaged in
the Greenland fishery that they could not get their wages settled
for at an earlier period?-I never heard of any difficulty in that
way.
12,558. Have you heard them complain that the agent had
contrived to keep them in his debt?-I never heard of such a thing.
Often when they had money to pay to us, they have said they had
not been in for their wages, and that they were going; but they
never said there was any difficulty in getting it, if they only went
to Lerwick for it.
12,559. Is all the rest of Mr. Hamilton's report correct except those
passages you have referred to?-Certainly not. I do not agree with
it at all. There is shade of truth about some things stated in it, but
it is overstated.
12,560. Do you differ from this statement in it: 'For this purpose
they employ agents in Lerwick who get, as I am informed, little
direct profit from their agency. Their chief profit arises from what
they can make out of the earnings of the men?'-That used to be
the case.
12,561. That means, of course, that the agents' chief profit arose
from their sales of goods to the men; and that used to be the case
formerly?-Yes.
12,562. When did it cease to be the case?-I believe that since the
Board of Trade regulations were enforced there has been a change.
12,563. Have you heard of any gentlemen giving up the agency in
the Greenland trade in consequence of their failure of profit from
that source?-I think Messrs. Hay & Co. have given it up; I have
not heard of any others.
12,564. Have you any doubt at all that the principal part of these
agents' profits was derived from sales of that kind, at least
previous to 1868?-I should think that that is quite correct, if you
speak of several years ago.
12,565. The price for the fish caught in the summer fishing is fixed
according to the current price for dry fish at the end of the season.
How is that current price ascertained?-We know how much
green fish make one cwt. of dry. It varies according to the size of
the fish, and their original quality. The average is about 21/4 cwt.
of green fish to one cwt. of dry.
12,566. Is that the average which is taken in calculating the price
every year, or is there sometimes a different average taken?-That
is taken generally. It varies a little, according to the fish being
very thin or fat at the time they are caught; but 21/4 cwt. is a very
fair estimate taking one time with another. We know how many
tons of wet fish we have at the station, and we know how many
tons of dry fish we get from that place. I have seen the proportion
as high as 21/2 cwt.
12,567. The produce of dry fish at one station might differ from
the same quantity of wet at another?-Yes, it will never be the
same.
12,568. Then, in calculating the amount in order to settle with the
men, do you take it overhead at all your stations?-We take our
chance of it varying.
12,569. You do not settle with the men at one station according to
the actual quantity of dry fish produced from the green fish
delivered there?-No. We have one price for all the season.
12,570. How do you ascertain the current price of dry fish in
order to settle with the men? Is it from your own sales, or do you
communicate with other merchants?-We are not very extensively
engaged in buying the fish green from the men.
12,571. Do you not buy sixty or eighty tons annually?-Yes; but
we generally make a calculation for ourselves. We don't always
pay the current price.
12,572. Is it not your bargain to pay the current price?-That is
the understanding with the men; but we have sometimes paid the
current price, and sometimes we have paid more. We don't bind
ourselves by what others pay.
12,573. Did you ever pay less than the current price?-No; but we
have sometimes paid more.
12,574. The men have no voice at all in settling what the price
shall be: it is left entirely to the merchants, is it not?-I think it is
left very much to the merchants with regard to the green fish.
12,575. Is the competition for fish sufficient here to bring the price
up to the highest figure?-Yes; there is no fear of that.
12,576. Are you prepared to say that any complaints [Page 312]
which the fishermen make to the effect that they do not get the
fair current price which they ought to get for their green fish,
as regulated by the current price at the end of the season, are
unfounded?-We very seldom have such complaints.
12,577. But if there were such complaints, do you say they are
unfounded?-I think the fishermen, generally are very fairly paid
for green fish.
12,578. Are there not two prices for fish exported from Shetland,
according as they are sent to one market or to another?-There are
many prices. Although a current price is fixed, there may be a
considerable difference in what the curer realizes. If a curer
chooses to take the chance of consigning to a certain market, he
may get more or he may get less than if he chose to sell here at
what is the shipping price.
12,579. If a curer sends his fish to the Spanish market, for
example, he may get a much higher price than by selling to a
purchaser at home?-He may get a higher price.
12,580. Does he generally do so?-He generally does, because it is
the best fish that are selected for that market; and if I choose to
reserve a certain portion of any cure and take my chance of how
the market will be going after Christmas, I may get more or I may
get less. I may speculate in that way as I like; but every curer does
not get the same price for his fish, although there is a current price
fixed.
12,581. How is that current price fixed?-I cannot explain it
very well. There is generally a great fight for about a fortnight
between the purchasers from the south and the merchants here.
The south-country buyers come down here, and sometimes they
come to terms at once but sometimes they go away without
fixing if they cannot agree upon the terms. About the month of
September, however, the price generally comes to a figure at last
at which the bulk of the fish go.
12,582. At that time are there communications between the
fish-curers here upon the subject?-Yes; they consult together
as to the offers they have, and whether they are to hold for a higher
price, or take what they can get.
12,583. Is it usual that the bulk of the fish is sold at nearly the
same figure?-As a rule, the bulk of the fish go at one price.
12,584. And the current price, according to which the men are
paid, is fixed by that?-Yes.
12,585. Do you think it would be possible to introduce in the
fishing trade here a system of paying at short intervals for the fish
delivered?-I think it would be quite impossible. We would be
very thankful if we could do so. We would be quite ready to pay
our own men in cash the same as we pay all the Englishmen. We
get large quantities of fish from English vessels, for which we pay
cash; and we would be quite as ready to pay our own men in cash
as them.
12,586. Why is that impossible?-There are many reasons for it.
Our men deliver their fish at a great number of little stations all
round the islands, and we could not have a person at each of these
stations to pay them, without a considerable expense. That is the
case with the curers generally.
12,587. You have only two stations besides Reawick?-We have
more stations than that for receiving fish.
12,588. Would the factor who receives the fish not be quite
competent to pay the men at short intervals?-Sometimes he
might be there for that purpose, and sometimes not; but the
difficulty would be with the men themselves. They would not be
satisfied to have a price fixed then.
12,589. But part of the price might be paid as a bounty, as it were,
and the balance might be payable according to the current price?-
Such an arrangement might be made; but I don't see any object it
could serve because, if our men wish an advance of money during
the fishing season at present, they can get it. If they wish money to
pay for anything they require while the fishing is going on, we
make no difficulty in giving them that advance, because we know
they are delivering fish which will cover it.
12,590. Would not the principal difficulty in the way of such a
system be the necessity under which the men are of getting
advances in goods or cash during the season? Would they be able
to hold on till the fortnightly or monthly payment without getting
advances?-They only require a very small proportion of their
fishing, either in money or in goods, during the season. The great
proportion of it has to be reserved for their annual payments of
rent and poor-rates, and various other things of that sort. The great
difficulty would be with the men: they would not like the system,
because they would feel that they would be losers by it.
12,591. How would they be losers?-Because no curer would risk
such a high price in the summer season as he is ready to pay the
men in the autumn, when he sees what he can afford to pay.
12,592. But when a certain amount of fish is delivered, it is quite
plain that something will be due to the fishermen at the end of the
season: would it not be possible then to fix a minimum price,
below which there could be no reasonable expectation of the fish
falling at the end of the season, and the men might be paid
according to that minimum price?-That would only increase
trouble, without any earthly advantage, so far as I can see.
12,593. The men would have the money in their own hands?-The
men have the money in their own hands as it is. I believe that
from all respectable curers they get money for any purpose they
ask it for.
12,594. But they have to go and ask for it specially?-Certainly.
12,595. And perhaps they have to ask for it as a favour?-Well,
it is a favour. The money is not due for the fish. They have
delivered the article, but it is in advance.
12,596. You mean the bargain is that the fish are to be delivered as
caught, but not to be payable till the end of the season; so that the
mistake, if there is one is in making that bargain?-I don't see that
there is any mistake in it.
12,597. Do you not think the fisherman would be wiser to make
the bargain to get his money paid as he wants it, instead of being
obliged, when he does want it in the course of the season, to ask
for it as a favour?-Such a system could not work, because in
these boats there are certain expenses which must come off the
whole crew. They may have hired men along with them, and they
could not divide each day's fishing or each week's fishing, without
a great deal of trouble and confusion.
12,598. Do you think the present arrangements between the curers
and the men are so complicated that it is necessary to have only
one settlement for the year?-I think the present system is the best
that can be devised. It would be a complicated system if weekly
payments were made; but there is no complication as it is at
present.
12,599. Do you think the system that has been suggested would
require too much accounting?-Yes; and the men could not take
the time to do it, without being great losers.
12,600. Do you receive a large portion of your annual cure from
the English boats which fish for you?-Yes. I suppose we receive
about one-third of our cure from them. All the men who fish for
us in these boats are paid wages, and they have a small allowance,
called score money, on the fish which each man takes.
12,601. Do you buy their fish green at a fixed price?-Yes, at a
price fixed with the master or owner, usually before the vessel
comes out.
12,602. That price is a standing price for the whole season?-Yes,
we take our chance.
12,603. And the owner also takes his chance?-Yes.
12,604. Do you think the men in these boats prosecute the fishing
as vigorously and successfully as those in the Shetland boats, who
are paid on a different principle?-They prosecute it with great
rigour. Generally they are thoroughbred fishermen. They have all
been apprenticed to the fishing when they were boys of 8 or 10
years of age.
12,605. Can you say that the practice which prevails in the
Shetland boats produces a greater amount of energy in carrying
on the fishing, and results in a [Page 313] larger capture of fish
than in the case of these Grimsby boats?-I know that the Shetland
boats catch more fish when competing with the others.
12,606. Are they equipped in the same way, or is there any
difference in the style of boat or of equipment which would
account for that?-They are very much the same class of vessel
as to size and equipment.
12,607. Are the English boats in any way superior?-No, there is
very little difference. Some of the smacks we have are the very
same, having been built by the same builders. I am speaking now
of the Faroe fishing, and these English vessels are all of the same
size and description.
12,608. Which system do you think the best of the two?-The best
for the Shetland fishermen is to have their share. Our men are
better paid than the Englishmen.
12,609. Do they take more from their shares than the Englishmen
take from their wages, as a rule?-Yes. I know the amount of
their earnings.
12,610. I have been requested to ask you this question: In what
number of boats, fishing at one station to different curers, would
these men be willing to accept the value of a week's fishing,
probably amounting to £20, and carry to their homes by sea, or
undertake the subdivision of them more frequently than once
annually, that at present?-I think I have answered that, or almost
that question already. I have already said that I believe the men
would refuse to adopt that system.
12,611. Is that in consequence of the trouble it would entail in
dividing the fish?-Yes, and the time taken up with it. Besides,
they don't require it.
12,612. How do you account for the English boats coming north to
compete with the Shetland crews, although they receive less for
their fishing than the Shetland fishermen do?-They are fishing all
the year round, and they come north to fill up their time when
fresh fish do not pay them on their own coasts.
12,613. Fishing is their only employment?-Yes.
12,614. You think it is not likely to become the only employment
of Shetland fishermen?-Not generally.
12,615. And you think it is not expedient that it should?-I don't
think it is. I think they all require something to do on the land as
well.
Lerwick, January 24, 1872, THOMAS HUTCHINSON, examined.
12,616. Are you a fisherman and tenant in Skerries?-I am.
12,617. Who is your landlord?-Mr. Bruce.
12,618. Do you pay your rent to him?-No, to Mr. Adie.
12,619. Is he your tacksman?-Yes.
12,620. Who do you fish for?-Mr. Adie.
12,621. Are you bound to fish for Mr. Adie, or can you engage to
fish with anybody you like?-We are bound to fish for Mr. Adie.
12,622. How do you know that?-Because Mr. Adie told us we
were not at liberty to fish for any other man except him.
12,623. When did he tell you that?-I cannot state the date
exactly, but it has been since I commenced to fish there, eighteen
years ago. That was the time when the agreement was made last.
12,624. What agreement?-That we were to deliver all our
produce, fish, and every other thing, to him, and to no one else.
12,625. If you chose to fish for anybody else, what was the penalty
to be?-That we were to be removed from our crofts.
12,626. Has any person been removed for fishing to another than
Mr. Adie?-None, for there have been no offenders.
12,627. How many people are in these lands?-There are almost
130 of a population, old and young. There are six boats belonging
to the islands that fish for Mr. Adie.
12,628. Do a number of people come there in the summer time
from other places to fish?-Yes. They fish both to Mr. Adie and
to Mr. Robertson. These are the only two who employ men there.
12,629. Has Mr. Robertson a station and a shop there?-Yes; he
has a store for supplying his fishermen.
12,630. Is it open all the year round?-No, only during the fishing
season.
12,631. Where do you get your supplies?-From Mr. Adie's shop
at Skerries. It is open all the year round, and is kept by Robert
Umphray.
12,632. Do you pay for your supplies at the time you get them, or
do you settle for them at the end of the year?-Sometimes at the
end of the year, and sometimes not for fifteen months.
12,633. How does it happen that you are sometimes fifteen months
in settling?-We live in an isolated place, and Mr. Adie's people
cannot sometimes get conveniently exactly at the twelvemonth's
end, but they make arrangements to come when they please.
12,634. Is it sometimes late in the spring before they come to
settle?-Sometimes we have not settled until March, but the usual
time is at Martinmas.
12,635. Have you any objection to that state of things?-The only
objection I have to it is that we do not have our freedom to fish to
the person who will pay us best, and we should also like to be able
to get our goods from the best market we can, and at the cheapest
price we can.,
12,636. Can you not get your goods from any market you please
just now?-No.
12,637. Why?-Because we cannot get our pay in hand.
12,638. Can you not get cash from Mr. Adie or from Mr. Umphray
when you ask for it?-Yes, if we have it to get.
12,639. If you want supplies during the season, before the
settlement comes, do you get them?-Yes, we can get our
supplies then, as far as our earnings are likely to cover them.
12,640. Have you ever been restricted?-Yes; they only allow us
to go so far as our earnings are likely to pay, and no further.
12,641. Have you ever been refused supplies?-Yes. I cannot give
the date of that, but I have been put on an allowance both of meal
and other things.
12,642. Did you get a certain amount of goods from the store each
week?-Yes, each Saturday night.
12,643. How often have you been put upon that allowance?-That
is always done, unless we can clear ourselves in Mr. Adies book.
12,644. When were you last put upon an allowance?-In 1869.
12,645. Was that a year of scarcity?-In our isolated place there is
generally scarcity, because our crops are scanty.
12,646. Are they not sufficient to keep your families all the year
round?-No.
12,647. Therefore you have every year to buy a certain amount of
meal from Mr. Adie?-Yes, we have generally to buy about six
months' provisions from him.
12,648. Were you put on an allowance in 1869 because you were
in debt?-Yes
12,649. What allowance was made to you then?-Three pecks of
meal a week; and there are seven of us in the family.
12,650. Was that less than you required?-Of course it was, but I
could get no more.
12,651. How much do you use when you are not upon an
allowance?-I could not say exactly, because when I can buy it
for myself I take no notice. I think, however, we would require
about five pecks a week.
12,652. Did you find the allowance of three pecks to be too small
for you?-Of course we did.
12,653. Was the rest of the island put upon an allowance at that
time?-All the indebted men were.
12,654. Were there many of them?-Most of the men in Skerries,
in the fishing line were in debt at that time.
12,655. At what season of the year was that?-In summer.
[Page 314]
12,656. Were there a number of men at that time in the island who
did not live there?-Yes, a great number.
12,657. Were they put on an allowance too?-I could not say as to
that. I can only speak of those who live constantly in the island,
and more especially myself.
12,658. Do you not think it was quite reasonable, that if a person
to whom you were due money was to continue to make you further
advances, he should use his own discretion as to the amount of
these advances?-Of course, if I got the goods at the market price.
I think I ought to have got my meal, or whatever I was requiring, at
the market price in Lerwick, adding something for freight.
12,659. Did you not get it at that rate?-No; I found that I could
buy meal 7s. per sack cheaper in Lerwick than in Skerries; and
from that down to the lowest thing we got, it was generally
charged one-third more than it could be got for in Lerwick or any
place near to it. I have paid for a sack of meal at Mr. Adie's
station at Skerries, when I could have got it from any merchant in
Lerwick at 50s. or 51s.
12,660. That was a difference of 10s.: when did you do that?-I
could not say, but I have done it. I think it was about four years
back.
12,661. Was that before 1869, when you were put on an
allowance?-Yes.
12,662. Were you in debt at that time?-Yes.
12,663. Did you get an advance of a sack of meal at a time, and
were charged 61s. for it?-Yes.
12,664. Where could you have got it in Lerwick for 50s. or 51s.?-
From Mr. John Robertson, senior. I got it from him at that, and
paid the cash down.
12,665. Did you get another sack from Mr. Adie at the same
time?-Yes, at the same date.
12,666. Did you get both of these supplies within month of each
other?-Within a month or two.
12,667. Have you any pass-book or any paper to show that?-No.
12,668. Did you get a receipt from Mr. Robertson for the
money?-No.
12,669. At what season of the year was that?-In January.
12,670. And you think that was about four years ago?-Yes.
12,671. That would probably be about January 1868?-I think so,
but I cannot exactly say.
12,672. Did you buy the meal from Mr. Robertson in your own
name?-One part in my own name, and the other part in the name
of my father, John Hutchison.
12,673. Who gave the order to Mr. Robertson?-I did.
12,674. Did you tell him that one half of the meal was for yourself
and one half for your father?-Yes.
12,675. Do you know whether the purchase was entered in his
books?-I cannot say, for I paid the cash down.
12,676. Do you know anything about the quality of that meal?-It
was just about the same quality as we could get from Mr. Adie.
12,677. Was it before or after you got the meal from Mr.
Robertson, that you bought the sack at 61s. from Mr. Umphray?-
It was after, about two months after at the furthest.
12,678. Did you say anything to him about the price when you got
it?-I did; and Mr. Umphray told me he must sell it at the invoice
price which his master sent to him.
12,679. Did you take the meal at that price?-I was obliged to do
so, when I could not make a better of it.
12,680. Could you not have gone and got some more from Mr.
Robertson?-I could; but I had no expectation of having anything
at the end of the time with which to pay him.
12,681. Did you think Mr. Robertson would not have given it to
you on credit?-I don't think it, for I could not have asked it.
12,682. Do you think Mr. Robertson would have given you the
meal as cheap if you had been buying it on credit?-He would
have given it to me cheaper on credit than Mr. Adie did.
12,683. Is there any other time that you remember, when you
bought meal or any other goods at Adie's shop, and when you
could have got them cheaper elsewhere?-That has happened
every time.
12,684. But did you ever try at what price you could get your
goods at another place in the same way as you did at that time?-
I have done so at times. We can get as many sillock hooks at
Messrs. Hay's shop, at Simbister in Whalsay, for 1d. as we can get
beside us for 11/2d.
12,685. Do you generally buy your sillock hooks at Whalsay?-
No; we generally go for them to the store where we are supplied. I
could also get washing soda in Lerwick for 1d., and we pay 11/2d.
for it at Skerries. I bought 14 lbs. of it in Lerwick yesterday at 1d.
a lb. The last I bought at Skerries was about two months ago, and
it was marked down to me at 11/2d. If I were buying as much as 14
lbs. at a time in Skerries, I would get no discount upon it; I would
still be charged 11/2d. per lb.
12,686. Do many of the people in Skerries go for their supplies to
other places?-No; they all go to Adie's store for them.
12,687. Why do they do that when the prices are so high as you
say?-Because they are bound so far to do it, in this way: that they
fish for him, and all their earnings go to him, and they must go to
the store for whatever supplies they require.
12,688. Do you mean that they are obliged to get their supplies on
credit, and that they have credit nowhere else?-They cannot have
credit anywhere else until they see whether they have any money
to get, and then they can come to Lerwick or any other place with
their money; but they cannot do that at any other time.
12,689. Are you at liberty to sell the produce of your farm to any
person you please?-No. We are under the restriction to take it all
to Mr. Adie's store.
12,690. Who told you that?-Mr. Umphray, Mr. Adie's factor.
12,691. Is there anybody else you could sell it to?-No; except in
the summer time, when Mr. Robertson's man is there.
12,692. Have any of you offered to sell to him?-Yes.
12,693. Have you been prevented from doing so?-Yes; we have
been prevented in this way, that we were obliged to go to Mr. Adie
with all that we had, or else we would have been put out of our
crofts.
12,694. Did anybody ever interfere with you selling to Mr.
Robertson?-If it had been known that it had been done, they
would have interfered; but no man, so far as I know, ever put the
produce of his farm or of his fishing past Mr. Adie.
12,695. Do you know of any person being fined for selling to Mr.
Robertson's man?-No; but I know that my father was fined 2s.
6d. for selling a dozen of eggs to a man at the lighthouse station.
That was in 1858.
12,696. Was that by Mr. Umphray?-Yes.
12,697. Was he Mr. Adie's factor at that time?-Yes.
12,698. Do you know of anybody having been fined in the same
way since?-No; except men going to Greenland, or going any
other way where they think they can be better. They are fined in
this way, that every man, young and old, on the island, is obliged
to fish for Mr. Adie.
12,699. But if a man goes to Greenland he is not on the island?-
No; and it is for that reason he is fined.
12,700. But if he is not on the island, how can he be fined?-He
comes back in the winter.
12,701. Who has been fined in that way?-I was fined, for one, in
1855.
12,702. Have you been at the Greenland fishing since that?-No.
12,703. Have you been away from the island since?-No.
12,704. Why have you not gone since?-Because I became a
tenant of Mr. Adie then, and I had to stick by that and fish for him.
12,705. Were you not a tenant of his at the time when you were
fined?-No.
[Page 315]
12,706. Then why did you pay the fine?-I must either pay the
fine, or my father would have been warned away for me.
12,707. Were you told that your father would be put away if you
did not pay the fine?-Yes.
12,708. How much did you pay?-£2.
12,709. To whom did you pay it?-To Mr. Adie himself.
12,710. Did you get a receipt for it?-No.
12,711. Was it put down to your account?-Yes.
12,712. Was it ever repaid to you?-It was never repaid to me, but
these fines were repaid to some others. It was repaid to Andrew
Williamson, for one. There were six men belonging to Skerries
who went to Greenland in 1855, and they were all fined £2 each.
12,713. That is a very old story. Did it ever happen again?-No.
12,714. Have men gone to Greenland from Skerries since then?-
Yes.
12,715. And they have not been fined?-No.
12,716. How did they escape?-I cannot say.
12,717. They just had their liberty, and nothing was said to
them?-Nothing.
12,718. Do you think the fines imposed on these six men served as
a warning?-I don't think so.
12,719. That did not prevent other men from going to
Greenland?-No, not for a few years back.
12,720. But did it do so at the time?-No; some men went to
Greenland immediately after that, and were not fined. I think the
fines were imposed on these six men in order to try to stop them
from going there; but it did not have that effect, and it was not
attempted again.
12,721. Why did you not get back your fine, when it was repaid to
Williamson and the other men?-I never asked it back.
12,722. Have you or anybody else been fined for that, or for selling
your goods to other people, since 1855?-No.
12,723. Except on that one occasion in 1858, when your father was
fined for selling eggs?-Yes.
12,724. Can you sell your eggs to the lighthouse keepers now, or to
any person you please?-Yes.
12,725. You are not bound now to sell them to Mr. Umphray?-
Not so far as I know.
12,726. Have you sold eggs to Mr. Robertson's man within the last
year or two?-Yes.
12,727. How do you sell your beasts?-To Mr. Adie.
12,728. Can you not sell them to any person you like?-Yes; but
the cash must be returned to him.
12,729. You mean the cash must be handed to because you must
pay your debts?-Yes.
12,730. Is there anything else you wish to say about Skerries?-
Nothing, except that I may state, on behalf of all the men who are
in the town now from Skerries, that they would like their freedom
to fish for any man who would pay them best, and be allowed to
get whatever they require from the cheapest market.
12,731. Supposing you had your freedom, is there one to whom
you could sell your fish for a better price than Mr. Adie allows?-
There are no others at the present time, so far as I know; but
opposition might arise if there were more buyers than one, and if
we had our freedom.
Lerwick, January 24, 1872, PETER HENDERSON, examined.
12,732. Are you a fisherman and farmer in Skerries?-I am.
12,733. How long have you been there?-This is the second year
since I came there, but I was born in Skerries. I have been living
in the North Isles for about twelve years.
12,734. Are you bound to fish for Mr. Adie?-Yes.
12,735. How do you know that?-I just know it in the same way
that the rest of the tenants know it. He is our tacksmaster, and of
course we have to fish for him.
12,736. When you took your bit of land two years ago from him,
were you told that you must fish for him?-Yes. Mr. Umphray
told me so.
12,737. Did Mr. Umphray let the land and agree with you about
it?-Yes.
12,738. He told you at the time that you must fish for Mr. Adie,
and you entered into that agreement, quite understanding what it
was?-Yes.
12,739. Do you take your supplies from Mr. Adie's shop, and
settle up every year at settling time?-Yes. I have always had a
balance to get then.
12,740. Did you get money besides that in the course of the season
if you wanted it?-Yes, when I asked for it.
12,741. Did you ask for much?-No; perhaps for £1 or so, when I
required it.
12,742. Were you at liberty to buy your supplies at any other place
you liked?-Yes, if I had money to give for them.
12,743. Could you have got money?-I did not ask it for that.
12,744. If you had asked for money with which to go and buy
your meal and tea in Lerwick, would you have got it from Mr.
Umphray?-I don't know that. If he had known it was my
intention to go with it to other parties, I don't think he would have
given it to me, because he would have wanted for himself any
profit there was upon it.
12,745. Have you any reason for supposing so?-I have only my
own reasons for supposing it, and I would think so.
12,746. Has he ever told you that he expects you to buy your goods
at his shop?-No. He has never said anything about that.
12,747. Has he ever had any occasion to tell you that?-No.
12,748. Do you think he would tell you that if you went and got
your goods in Lerwick or in Whalsay?-I don't know.
12,749. Have you ever been fined for selling your produce to
anybody else or for fishing for another than Mr. Adie?-No.
12,750. Do you want to have liberty to fish for another?-Of
course we should like to fish for any one who would pay us most.
12,751. But you came voluntarily to Skerries two years ago,
knowing that you could fish only for Mr. Adie there
12,752. Why do you object to that now?-I don't object to it, only
I should like if I could get more for my produce.
12,753. Do you think you could get more for it from any one
else?-I don't think I could get more for it at the present time,
because Mr. Adie is paying as high price as any other man.
12,754. Why did you go to Skerries?-Circumstances led me to
go. I could not keep the land I was on, because the rent was too
high. That was in Fetlar.
12,755. Do you get your land cheaper in Skerries?-I have only
half a house and land in Skerries, but I could not get that chance in
Fetlar. I had a heavy tack of land there, and I was not able to pay
for it.
12,756. Do you know anything about the price and quality of
provisions in Skerries?-They are dearer than in Lerwick. I
bought a boll of meal in Lerwick yesterday from R. & C.
Robertson's, to take home with me, and paid 19s. 6d. for it,
while the price in Skerries just now is 23s. I have not bought so
much there lately, but I know by the peck price that that is the
price of it. I bought a peck lately, and it was marked down to me
at 1s. 4d.
12,757. Would it not have been less if you had bought a boll?-It
might have been a little less, but not much.
12,758. To whom do you sell your cattle?-To Mr. Adie.
12,759. Do all the people in Skerries sell their cattle to him?-
They generally go to the roup at Voe, and have a chance of selling
them there.
[Page 316]
12,760. Do they take their cattle or ponies all the way to Voe?-
There are no ponies in Skerries.
12,761. Are you paid in money for your cattle at the time of the
roup?-Yes, if we want it. Of course Mr. Adie does not like to
pay us the whole of it in money if we are in his debt, but if a man
is clear he gets whatever he wants.
12,762. If a man is clear does he always get his money down, or
is it put into his account?-If he wants to leave it in Mr. Adie's
hands he will get interest for his money, but if he wants the money
itself it will be paid down to him.
12,763. What are the usual earnings in the summer fishing?-They
vary according as we are successful or not. Last, summer I think I
had £18, 6s. for my fish from April to Lammas.
12,764. Did you catch some fish in the winter and early spring,
before that?-Very little. I got perhaps 30s. for them.
12,765. Is the fishing of the Skerries men in summer as large as
that of the men who come from the mainland?-Yes. Most of the
Skerries boats are quite as well fished as the boats that come from
the mainland.
12,766. Had you as much money to get as most of the mainland
men?-I believe I had. I don't think there were any who were
much above me.
Lerwick, January 24, 1872, THOMAS HUTCHINSON, recalled.
12,767. How much did you get for your summer fishing last
year?-£17, 19s.
12,768. Was that as much as most of the mainland men got, so far
as you know?-Yes. I don't know what money they actually got;
but I know the number of cwts. they took, and I know that none of
them had much more than me. The highest of the mainland boats
had 252 cwts., while our boat, which was manned entirely by
Skerries men, had 246 cwts. 1 qr. 18 lbs. The mainland boat I
have mentioned was one of Mr. John Robertson's. Ours was the
highest fished boat belonging to Mr. Adie at Skerries. The six
boats belonging to Skerries had all about the same take.
12,769. Do you think the Skerries boats generally had a smaller
number of cwts. than the mainland boats?-In general they had
more.
12,770. Was that because they lost less time in coming and going
to the fishing?-Yes. The Skerries men had the advantage of
Friday afternoon and Saturday above the Lunnasting men, who
went home at the end of every week on the Friday afternoon, and
did not return until Monday about twelve o'clock.
12,771. You had thus a longer time at the fishing than the
Lunnasting men. How do you account for it that you had not
one-third more fish than they?-I just account for it by chance
or fortune.
Lerwick, January 24, 1872, DAVID ANDERSON, examined.
12,772. Are you a fisherman in Skerries?-I am. I have been there
since I was a child.
12,773. Do you hold a bit of land?-Yes.
12,774. Do you consider yourself bound to fish for Mr. Adie?-
Yes, the same as any other.
12,775. Were you told so?-I was not; but my father was when he
signed his agreement for the land, about twenty years ago. I have
the half of the farm with him.
12,776. Have you ever been fined or found fault with for fishing to
another, or for selling the produce of your farm to any one else
than Mr. Adie?-Never.
12,777. I suppose there has been no occasion to do so?-No.
12,778. Have you ever sold fish, or eggs, or butter, or cattle to any
one except Mr. Adie?-No.
12,779. Have you always got as good a price from him as you
could have got anywhere else?-I usually got the currency.
12,780. Do you think you would have been better off if you had
had liberty to deal with another?-I don't know that I would.
12,781. Have you any wish for a change?-No.
12,782. Are you content as you are?-Yes.
12,783. Do you think the evidence of the two previous witnesses
was correct with regard to the price and quality of the goods at
Skerries?-Quite correct.
12,784. Are the goods dearer at Skerries than they are
elsewhere?-Yes.
12,785. But you have no wish for a change, and are quite content
to go on paying the higher prices?-I am merely content to fish for
Mr. Adie as well as for another; but I think the prices which he
charges for his goods in the shop are far too dear.
12,786. But you are not bound to take all your goods from his
shop?-No, not if I had the money.
12,787. Do you not get the money at settling time?-Yes, at
settling time I do; but hardly as much as will keep me going for
a twelvemonth, and I must go to him for some supplies.
12,788. Do you not get enough money at settling time to carry you
on for two or three months?-Yes.
12,789. After that could you not get credit from any other shop
where you could get your goods cheaper?-I have no doubt I could
if I knew that I could pay my account at the twelvemonth's end.
12,790. But if you had credit at another shop where you could get
your supplies cheaper, and if you got no credit from him, you
could get all your money from him at settlement, instead of having
part of it in supplies?-I could, but we have our rent to pay to him
annually. In the meantime we might have a good fishing or a bad
fishing, as Providence sends it. If we had a good fishing, we might
have enough money to pay the men from whom we had got credit;
but if not, we would not have plenty of money and then how could
we pay our accounts?
12,791. Does not Mr. Adie take the same chance with you?-Yes.
12,792. You might have no money to pay him for the credit he has
given you?-That is quite true.
12,793. Therefore he has to wait for payment just as another
merchant would have to wait for payment, if you get your goods
on credit from him?-Yes.
12,794. Then why do you think that another merchant would not
give you credit?-There is no doubt we would get plenty of credit.
12,795. Have you ever compared the prices of goods at Skerries
with what you could get them for at any other place?-Yes; and
everything is dearer there than it is in Lerwick. For instance,
cotton is always from 2d. to 21/2d. a yard dearer at Skerries than at
Lerwick. I have bought cotton of the same quality at both places
for oiling, and I found there was that difference in the price. Then
last year I bought a sack of meal in Lerwick for 42s., and we were
paying 46s. in Skerries for it at that time. It was in February last
year that I bought it in Lerwick, from Mr. Charles Robertson, and I
bought some in Skerries in April or May. I think the freight to
Skerries is 8d. a sack. We generally get it conveyed by Mr. John
Robertson's packet when we buy it in Lerwick, and I think his
charge for it is 8d.
12,796. Were these two purchases of meal of the same quality?-
Just about the same.
Lerwick, January 24, 1872, ALEXANDER HUMPHRAY, examined.
12,797. Are you a fisherman in Skerries?-I am.
12,798. You are not a tenant yourself?-No. My father is a tenant,
and I live with him.
[Page 317]
12,799. Do you fish to Mr. Adie?-Yes.
12,800. Are you not at liberty to fish for any other person?-I
don't know. I am in my father's boat, and therefore I cannot get
clear. I would like to oblige Mr. Adie as far as possible by going
in his boat; but if we have fish to sell, and if there is another
merchant in Skerries who would buy the fish, and perhaps give
us 3d. or 6d. per cwt. more for them, we cannot sell them to him.
We must give them all to Mr. Adie.
12,801. How do you know that?-Because we have seen it.
12,802. When did you see it?-About four years ago. There was
another merchant there, who was giving more for the fish, but I
could not leave the boat and go to him when the other men in the
boat were bound to give their fish to Mr. Adie.
12,803. Did you think you were free at that time?-I did not know.
I thought Mr. Adie could pay as much as any other man for fish,
but he would not do it; and I could not take my fish out of the boat
and sell them to another man when all the other men were selling
their fish to Mr. Adie. It would not have looked right.
12,804. Who was the other merchant?-Mr. John Hughson, Yell.
He was offering 3d. per cwt. more, and yet we could not give him
our fish.
12,805. Did you try to take your fish away to him?-I did not try.
I would have liked to have done it, but the fish had been weighed
before I could get my share, and it would not have looked well to
have taken them away.
12,806. Did you speak about that at the time?-Yes, I spoke about
it to Mr. Umphray, Mr. Adie's factor, and he said we must give
our fish to him, as we were bound to do so.
12,807. Have you ever been at Faroe or Greenland?-I have been
fishing to Mr. Adie at Skerries all along.
12,808. Were you employed as a beach boy there at one time?-
Yes, for two years. That was five years ago. The regular fee then
was £3 for three-fourths of the year, and £4 for a splitter.
12,809. When you were engaged as a beach boy, did you get most
of your payment in supplies?-Yes.
12,810. You were settled with at the end of the year?-Yes; and I
was buying their goods at the same time.
12,811. How much of your fee did you get at the end of the
year?-I got £1 the first year. My father did as much for me as
he could, so that I did not require to buy meal from him. I got
about £1 at the end of the second year also.
12,812. When you were a beach boy, could you not get your cash
in hand if you asked for it in advance in the course of the year?-I
know we might have got 1s. or 2s. to serve a particular purpose,
but no more.
12,813. Were you expected to take it out in supplies?-Yes.
12,814. If you had asked it by the week, would you have got it?-
No; they said they would not give it until the end of the season,
and it was fixed then according to the amount of fish that had been
taken.
12,815. Was not your beach fee a uniform sum, whatever kind of
fishing there was?-No; there was a sum fixed at the beginning of
the year, and then at the end of the season they gave us what they
liked.
12,816. Is that the practice still?-Yes.
12,817. If it is a good fishing, the beach fee is fixed higher?-Yes.
12,818. And you think it is always higher in proportion to the
success of the fishing?-Yes; and according to the number of
years you have been at the work.
12,819. How many beach boys and men are employed at Mr.
Adie's station in Skerries?-There are usually about six boys and
two splitters. In some years there are eight, and I have seen as few
as three and four. They settle with us at Skerries, in Mr. Adie's
house there, not in the shop. They brought the books over from
Voe.
12,820. When you were settled with at the end of the year, were
you asked if you wanted anything?-No.
12,821. You were paid the money?-Yes, whatever I had to get. If
I was due £1 or £10, there was 1s. per pound of interest charged
against me, and that was done with every one in Skerries. I knew
a man who was due £14 last year, and he had to pay 14s., but he
cleared himself this year. If a man's debt is above £40, that is £2 a
year he has to pay, and they never can get out of debt.
12,822. Are there many men who are due above £40, and who
never get out of debt?-As far as I can learn, there is one.
12,823. How do you know that he never will get out of debt?-
Unless better times come, I don't know how he can. He will not
be able to do it with the present fishings.
12,824. Has he been long in debt in that way?-I believe he has
been for a good while. Sometimes the debt may be £1 more or £1
less but the interest is always charged.
12,825. Have you sometimes had a balance to get at the end of the
year?-Yes; sometimes I may have had £5 or £6 to get, and
sometimes nothing.
12,826. When you have a balance of that kind to get, does Mr.
Umphray never ask you if you want any goods?-He never says
anything. We just please ourselves. I would never take anything
from the shop at Skerries if I could get it in Lerwick, because
everything is overpriced there. For instance, there is soap and
soda. You cannot get a bit of soap there under 6d. a lb., and soda
is 11/2d., while here it is 1d. Everything I could mention is dearer
there than here. Sugar is 5d. and 6d. there, and I know that in
Lerwick we can get as good for 5d. as we get there for 6d. If we
were paid money every time we come on shore with our fish, or
every time we want it, we would be able to get our things very
much cheaper from other places.
12,827. Are you sure the sugar which you pay 6d. for in Skerries is
not better than you would get for 5d. here?-I don't think it is.
We pay 7d. for hard sugar there, and we can get the same kind for
6d. here.
12,828. Would you not have a long way to go from Skerries in
order to get your goods cheaper, even although you had your
money in your hands?-There is a packet going to Whalsay every
week, and goods are almost as cheap there as in Lerwick. They
are far cheaper than in Skerries, and it is the same freight to
Whalsay.
12,829. I suppose it is not very easy to get goods carried to
Skerries?-Unless from Whalsay it is not very easy. We can
get them quarterly; but we could get them every week by the
packet to Whalsay, by sending a letter to Lerwick, and then we
could get them brought to Skerries when we had a chance.
12,830. Does Mr. Robertson's packet only go in the summer
season?-Yes; but the Commissioners' mail packet comes every
week to Whalsay, and any of us could go over there and bring
whatever small thing we wanted.
<Adjourned>.
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