ROBERT HENDERSON, examined.
12,831. You are the son of Mr. Gavin Henderson, who is a
merchant at Scousburgh, Dunrossness?-I am.
12,832. You have charge of his business now?-Yes, mostly.
12,833. Are you in partnership with him?-No.
12,834. You are his manager?-Yes.
12,835. Of what does your stock consist?-It is most impossible to
say. It consists of drapery goods, groceries, ironmongery, coal,
and I don't know what more.
12,836. Do you buy some hosiery?-A little; and we buy eggs as
well.
12,837. I believe you have about the largest business in the
neighbourhood?-We do a reasonable business.
12,838. You are not engaged in the fishing in any way?-We buy
fish, but we have no boats of our own.
12,839. From whom do you buy fish?-From any parties who
present them to us. We buy scarcely any in summer. It is mostly
in winter that we get them, because in the summer months the
boats are all engaged to certain fish-merchants, and the men sell
their fish to them or to the proprietors.
12,840. Is it generally the proprietors who have the fishing in their
own hands?-Some of them have, and some have not. Mr. Bruce
of Simbister does not have the fishing in his hands; the others
have.
12,841. To whom do Mr. Bruce of Simbister's tenants generally
fish?-His tenants on the west side, those round us, fish for Mr.
John Robertson, jun., Lerwick, and for Mr. Robert Mullay,
Lerwick.
12,842. How many boats has Mr. Mullay?-I don't know exactly;
perhaps seven or eight. He has a station at Ireland, and Mr.
Robertson, jun. has one at Spiggie. They have no shops there.
They have only the stations hired from Mr. Bruce. Those of Mr.
Bruce's tenants who fish from Spiggie are bound to fish for Mr.
Robertson during the summer months, and those who fish from
Ireland at that time are bound to fish for Mr. Mullay.
12,843. Do you understand that these tenants are bound to fish for
these merchants?-Yes.
12,844. Is that the understanding in the district?-Yes; but during
the summer months only.
12,845. Do you know that from the men themselves?-Yes.
12,846. Have they often told you that they are bound to fish for
these tacksmen?-They have often told me that; but they are not
tacksmen, they only have the stations.
12,847. Do these men deal a great deal at your shop?-Yes.
12,848. Have they ever told you in what way they are bound, or
how they know they are bound?-Robert Robertson, of Noss, once
wished to have liberty to dry his fish for himself, and to fish from
Spiggie, and he would force a beach for himself quite apart from
Mr. Robertson's beach, but he was refused liberty.
12,849. When was that?-I could not say; it was about four or five
years ago, I think.
12,850. Do you know any one else who was interfered with in the
same way?-I know a man from Ireland who was obliged to beach
and draw his boat in a ghive some distance from Ireland, in order
to sell his fish to Charles Nicholson, Scalloway. His name was
Gavin Goudie.
12,851. Are these the only curers for whom the tenants of Mr.
Bruce of Simbister fish?-No. If they do not fish from Spiggie or
from Ireland, they are at liberty to fish for whom they like. They
can dry their fish or sell them wet, just as they please. A good
many of them fish from about Scatness and West Voe, and sell
their fish to Hay & Co. A few of them fish from Voe, and sell
their fish to Mr. Grierson of Quendale.
12,852. But they are at liberty to sell to any person they like?-
Yes. Mr. Grierson of Quendale has a station at Voe in tack, and
the fishermen are not bound to fish for him unless they like.
12,853. Have you dealings with all the fishermen in your
neighbourhood on the Simbister estate?-Not with all, but
with most of them.
12,854. And also with some on the Sumburgh and Quendale
estates?-Yes.
12,855. Are your transactions with these men generally paid for in
cash, or do you run accounts with them?-We run accounts with
them partly, and their purchases are paid in cash partly.
12,856. Do you run accounts with them for any length of time?-
For a year. There is only a yearly settlement here, and we run
accounts with them to the end of the year, when they settle with
their fish-merchants. Then, as a rule, they pay us, though there are
exceptions.
12,857. How do these exceptions occur?-Perhaps they are not
able to pay us.
12,858. I suppose you are not very willing to give long credits in
that way?-No. We would wish very much to have the credit
system done away with; but we must do it.
12,859. You have not got the same security as a curer for whom
the men are fishing?-No.
12,860. Do you think that more of the fishermen would deal with
you if you were able to afford them the same credit as they get
from the curers?-It is very likely they would.
12,861. But you restrict their credits?-Yes.
12,862. Have you understood from any of the fishermen, that they
are obliged to deal at Grutness or Quendale in order that they may
get their goods on credit?-Mr. Bruce, so far, as I know, does not
interfere with his men with regard to the purchase of their
groceries or goods. If they buy at Grutness, I suppose it will be so
much the better; but if they did not buy there, I never heard any of
them say that Mr. Bruce would say anything to them.
12,863. That is not the question. What I asked was, whether the
fact that they can get a longer credit there, and there only, and that
they have no ready money, obliged them to go to these shops?-
Very often it does.
12,864. Do you know that from the statements of the fishermen
themselves?-Yes.
12,865. Is it a common feeling amongst men with whom you
come in contact, that they would like to have liberty to fish for
themselves?-Yes, very much so.
12,866. Do they speak as if they felt that the restriction which is
put upon them with regard to fishing is also a restriction as to the
shop at which they are to deal?-If they have no cash, it comes to
be a restriction. What the men want is to have the stations in their
own power, so as to be able to dry their fish for themselves, or to
sell to whom they like. That would give a competition in trade;
but while the fishermen are bound to fish to certain parties, it
causes a monopoly in trade.
12,867. What is about the utmost amount to which you can allow
an account to run in the course of the year?-It depends very
much upon the position of the party who is running the account.
Ordinarily we allow an account with fishermen to run from 30s. to
£2, but some of them run accounts up to £10.
12,868. Have you any men on the Sumburgh or Quendale estates
who have run up accounts as high as £8 or [Page 319]£10?-Not
on Sumburgh or Quendale to that extent; but I daresay some of
them do run up accounts to the extent of £5 or £6 or £7.
12,869. Are the men who run accounts to that extent fewer upon
these estates than upon the Simbister estate and the other estates in
the district?-We don't run such heavy accounts as that with any
men at all, unless they have something else to fall back upon
12,870. What was about the average price of your meal in 1870?-
It varied very much. Before the French War broke out, the meal
was very low. I remember that in the first of the season we were
selling oatmeal for 17s. per boll, or 34s. a sack.
12,871. How much was that per lispund?-4s. 3d.; and it rose
throughout the season to about 21s. 6d. or 22s., or 5s. 6d. per
lispund.
12,872. Is the lispund less than a quarter boll?-We give it nearly
about the same size. We give 34 lbs. to a lispund.
12,873 Is that usual in the country?-No; 32 lbs is the usual
measure. We give 8 lbs. for a peck, and charge a less price for it
than for a quarter of a lispund. We have the meal in boll bags,
and when parties want a boll we sell it without breaking bulk.
12,874. Would you look over your books for 1870, and ascertain
the highest and the lowest price at which you bought and sold meal
in the course of that year?-Yes.*
12,875 At what are you selling tobacco?-We sell Irish roll at
11d. per quarter, and mid at 1s. per quarter. We sell the mid at
31/2d. per ounce, or 6d. for 2 ounces.
12,876 What is the price of the best quality of soft sugar?-We
sell soft brown sugar at 5d. per lb. We sell our best crushed sugar
at 6d., and hard sugar at 61/2d.
12,877 Do you sell lines?-Sometimes. Our price for 2-lb. lines
is 2s., for 21/4-lb. lines 2s. 3d., and for hooks is 8d. per 100.
12,878. Are these quite as good as are sold by your neighbours?-I
suppose they are. We sell them freely.
12,879. What is the price of a 60-fathom line?-We don't keep
these, but they generally come to about 1s. per lb. The price
depends upon the weight. When we buy fish we do so at a stated
price, which is fixed at the time of the purchase Most of the fish
we buy are in the winter time, from those tenants of Mr. Bruce
who fish for Hay & Co. and Mr. Robertson and Mr. Mullay in
summer. In winter they are free to sell to whom they like; and we
put a price on the fish, and give them cash over the counter when
the fish are delivered.
12,880. Do they sometimes take away the price of their fish in
goods?-They can please themselves. We pay them cash, and
they buy goods or not as they like
12,881. Do you always give them cash?-Yes, when we have got
it. Sometimes we may give them an I O U, and others prefer to
have the amount put to their accounts but the fish are bought at a
certain price, and that is divided at the time amongst the men.
12,882. In winter the boat's crew, I suppose, consists of 3 or 4
men?-Yes.
12,883. Is any difficulty experienced in fixing the shares of the
men at the time?-No. The price is just divided among them
according to the way in which they want it.
12,884. You ascertain the price of the whole catch of the boat, and
then each man takes his third or his fourth, as the case may be?-
Yes, whatever the catch may be, each man gets his share of it.
12,885. Would there be any difficulty in paying for the fish in that
way in the summer fishing?-In the summer fishing it would not
work very well, because it would not do to give the men their cash
just off-hand; but there is a way in which it could be done equally
well. Suppose the men knew what the price of the fish was to be,
the amount could be left in the hands of the parties who bought
their fish from them. They don't require to draw all their money at
once.
12,886. Do you mean that they could draw some of it?-Yes.
What I hear the men complain of is, that they don't know what
price they are to get for their fish until the end of the season;
but if they had the fishing in their own hands, so that they could
sell to whom they liked, they could make their bargain at the
commencement of the season if they chose, in the same way as
the herring fishing is carried on at Wick.
12,887. Or they might fix the price from week to week, or from
month to month?-Yes. If there were several parties who were at
liberty to buy the fish from the men, that would cause competition
in the market, and the probability is the price would go higher.
12,888. But you think it would not work so well to have the men
paid every time the boat came in in summer?-I don't think it
would, because they would be liable to spend the money.
12,889. Is that the only reason why you think that system would
not work?-Yes, the only reason.
12,890. Would there be any difficulty in settling?-We don't
experience any difficulty in settling with our men.
12,891. Might it not require a curer at a station such as Spiggie or
Ireland, or at a more distant place, to have a more efficient factor
there than he would otherwise have, and perhaps also to keep
money there?-That might be avoided. For instance, Mr. Irvine
has some workmen here who work for him in building houses and
other things; and he tells their foreman to hand us in a note of their
time every fortnight, in order that we may settle up with the men.
The men don't choose to draw their money whenever it falls due;
but we give the foreman a few pounds, and he gives them as much
money as they like to draw. Some of them don't draw any of their
wages until the end of the season, when they get it to pay their
rents with; and the fishing might be managed in the same way.
12,892. Are those masons and labourers who are employed by Mr.
Irvine?-Yes; on the Simbister estate. Of course they know the
money is there, and they can draw it every fortnight if they like;
but there is nothing to prevent them from leaving it until the end of
the season, or whenever they wish to square up.
12,893. I suppose these men very often have accounts running at
the same time?-Some of them have, and some have not; but that
is quite a distinct matter. Their wages are always paid to them in
cash.
12,894. But they often don't choose to ask for it?-They
sometimes don't choose to ask for it till the end of the season.
12,895. Do you think they have a fear themselves that it might be
spent if they took it sooner?-It is quite possible they have.
12,896. And they get what they want in the meantime at your shop,
or anywhere else where they can have credit?-They may or they
may not, as they like. That is entirely at their own option; but they
can get supplies of cash from their foreman when they want them.
12,897. Is it the foreman who gives the money to them?-Yes.
We supply the foreman with cash when he wants it; and then he
gives it to the men when they want it, and charges it against them.
12,898. You have a note of the men's time furnished [Page 320] to
you every fortnight by the foreman. What is the purpose of
that?-In order that the accounts may be regularly kept.
12,899. Who keeps the accounts?-We do.
12,900. Do you add up the men's time every fortnight, and make a
note of the amount that is due to each?-Yes.
12,901. In that way, supposing a man has an account with you,
you know whether he has been overdrawing it in goods or
otherwise?-Yes; but he draws the cash from the foreman if he
applies for it, and then the foreman gives us a note of the cash he
has paid, and of the man's time for the fortnight.
12,902. But if the man takes out goods he settles with you?-Yes;
or if he draws the money from the foreman, he pays the goods he
has got from us with it.
12,903. If he has an account with you, in that case he will settle
with you at once?-If he has an account with us he allows his
account to go on, and the foreman pays him cash when he wants
it When he gets cash from the foreman, it is at his own option to
square his account with it or not, as he likes.
12,904. If the man is in your debt, do you still give him the
cash?-Yes.
12,905. But you could retain it if there was any doubt about the
men's solvency?-We always do hand them the cash.
12,906. You have never had occasion to retain it on account of a
man's delay or refusal to pay his debt?-No.
12,907. Do you sometimes get stray lots of fish during the
summer?-Not much. Sometimes, perhaps, we get a 'supper
piltock.' The men take home a few fish for their own family use,
Sometimes a man has large family, and another man has a small
family, but they require to take home an equal number of fish to
each of them; and then the man who does not require so much
sells what he has got extra and that is called a supper piltock.
12,908. I suppose there is not much smuggling of fish going on
here?-I don't think so; not in the summer time.
12,909. But if a man who is bound to fish wants a little ready
money, does he not come to you with a lot of fish?-Not in the
summer time; they would not be safe to do that. They would get
their warning if they sold their fish past their proprietor in the
summer time.
12,910. If it were known?-Yes, if it were known.
12,911. But don't they try to do it sometimes on the sly?-I don't
know that they do.
12,912. You take them all for supper piltocks, if any are brought to
you?-I suppose so.
12,913. Do you buy hosiery upon the system that is usual in the
country?-No; we buy for cash.
12,914. Are you the only merchants in Shetland who do so?-I
don't know; but it is very little hosiery we deal in. We find it very
easy to buy, but very difficult to sell. We are not rightly in the
market. We wish to carry on the hosiery trade on the same
principle as the rest of our business, buying everything at a cash
price, and giving cash for it if it is asked.
12,915. Do you find any unwillingness on the part of the knitters to
take lower prices for their hosiery if they are to be paid for it in
cash?-No, they are ready to sell for lower prices if they can get
cash; and so they may, because sometimes girls come into our
shop with cottons or flowers or other goods which they have
brought from Lerwick, and ask us to exchange them.
12,916. Are you often asked to take flowers in that way?-Not
often, because we refuse to do it, unless they are goods which have
been bought from ourselves. In that case we exchange them; but if
they are bought from other parties we won't take them. We find
that the goods which are offered to us as having been received for
hosiery are very much higher priced than what we would sell the
goods at ourselves.
12,917. Have you been offered goods in that way lately?-Not
lately, because we have refused to take them. The girls have told
us that there is no use asking for cash in Lerwick, because they
won't get it, and they don't ask us to take the goods, because they
know we won't take them.
12,918. Do you remember any case in which you were offered
goods that had been obtained for hosiery at a lower price than they
were nominally sold at to them?-I have been offered goods at a
lower price, certainly, but I could not mention any particular case.
12,919. Has that happened more than once?-It has happened very
often.
12,920. About what amount of business are you doing in hosiery
on that system?-Very little at present.
12,921. Is that because you don't get a sale for it?-Yes. As I
said, we have not got into the market rightly.
12,922. Do you find it difficult to get the hosiery sold at a profit
when you buy it on that system?-Yes.
12,923. Have you been obliged to sell it at something like the price
which you paid for it?-Yes, we don't look for a profit upon
hosiery.
12,924. Then why do you deal in it if you don't look for a
profit?-Because it gives the people a chance of getting cash for
it, and then we have a chance of getting the cash again.
12,925. I suppose that generally you do get the cash again?-
Generally we do; but that is quite optional with the people
themselves.
12,926. Do you pay for hosiery in goods at all?-If they ask for
goods, of course we give them goods; but if they ask for cash they
get it. That is the way in which we do all our business. We put
the goods that we buy at cash prices, and we put the goods that we
sell at cash prices, and it is a matter of indifference to us whether
they ask goods or cash.
12,927. But, in point of fact, the hosiery may be paid for in goods,
and no cash may pass if the party so chooses?-That may happen,
but we don't do it as rule. As a rule, some other party buys the
hosiery who knows better about it than I do, and hands the cash to
the party from whom the hosiery is bought, and then they are at
liberty to buy from us, or from any other person they like.
12,928. Are the eggs which you buy paid for on the same
principle?-They are paid for in goods or cash, as the parties
wish.
12,929. But the custom of the country is to pay for them in
goods?-That is the custom of the country.
12,930. Do you generally find that the people who bring them are
content to take the price, or prefer to take the price of them in
goods?-They often take the price in goods, because they want
them, but at the same time that is quite optional with themselves.
12,931. Are there not two prices for these things, whether they are
paid in goods or cash?-Some parties have two prices, but we
have not. We have only one price. We often prefer to pay the
people in cash when they really want goods, because it saves a
great deal of trouble in settling with them, and then they buy goods
again.
12,932. Do you find that your cash transactions for goods are
generally greater at one season of the year than at another?-Yes,
very much greater. Our busy season for cash commences when the
landlords and fishcurers commence to pay the men for their
season's fishing, and we continue to drive a large trade of that
description until April.
12,933. Do you then find the men beginning to ask for credit more
frequently?-Yes.
12,934. Do you think it would be better for the trade generally, as
well as for the men, if they were paid more frequently, and the
settlements were not so distant?-It would certainly be better for
us if they were paid more frequently, because then we would be
paid more frequently also.
12,935. Do you think it would be better for the men too, and that
they would make a better bargain with their money, or do you
think it is just as well that the money should be kept for them?-I
consider that the money is kept up a great deal too long. For
instance, if the fish-curers paid for the fish at the end of the fishing
season, that is, on 1st September, that might serve the men very
well; but as it is with some parties, it is the 1st of April or the end
of March before they are paid.
[Page 321]
12,936. Are the men sometimes in difficulties with regard to their
supplies, in consequence of that?-No; because if they have
anything to get, they can obtain supplies from the stores of the
fish-merchants. They can get anything they like from them in
goods. Perhaps that is the reason why the settlement is sometimes
so long delayed, because it gives the men the chance of running a
larger account than they would otherwise do and then they have
less cash to get.
12,937. Have you any ground for that statement other than from
mere inference?-No. There is one thing I may mention in
connection with the fishing, that when the men sell their fish
green, the drying of them must be paid for to other parties; but
suppose the men dried the fish themselves, there are often windy
days, when they cannot be at the fishing, and then they work at the
drying of their own fish when they would have been doing nothing
if they had been on-shore. In that way they can dry their fish for
themselves very much cheaper than the fish-curer can dry them.
12,938. But can they do it as well? Do you think the fish cured by
a fisherman himself command as good a market as those cured on
a large scale by a curer?-We have had very little experience in
that matter, because we don't buy fish in that way.
12,939. Do you cure any fish at all?-Yes; we cure the fish which
we buy in the winter time wet.
12,940. How many fish do you sell in the course of a year?-From
10 to 20 tons.
12,941. Do you sell these at what is called the current price?-
There is a current price for the ling fishing, according to which the
fishermen are paid, and we try to get the most out of the fish that
we can.
12,942. Do you generally get above or below what is called the
current price in Shetland?-I don't know, because merchants, as a
rule, don't care about saying much about what they have got for
their fish.
12,943. Are you not consulted by other curers about fixing the
current price?-No; we just act for ourselves.
12,944. Do you get a lower price for winter fish than is given for
summer fish?-Yes, as a rule, we get less for them.
12,945. Your father is present to-day, but he prefers that you
should be examined, as he is not in very good health?-Yes.
*Mr. Henderson afterwards furnished the following statement:-
LIST of OATMEAL invoiced to and sold by Gavin Henderson,
Dunrossness, in 1870.
Date of Invoice.
1870.
a March 11. 24 Bolls Oatmeal, sold by him at 16s. 6d
b " 18. 24 " " 17s. 0d
c April 15. 8 " " 18s. 0d
d May 13. 6 " " 18s. 0d
e " 13. 14 " " 18s. 0d
f June 3. 20. " " 19s. 0d
g 24. 8 " " 19s. 6d
h July 26. 16 " " 21s. 0d
i Aug. 10. 2 " " 22s. 0d
j Sept. 30. 2 " " 19s. 6d
k Nov. 4. 2 " " 19s. 0d.
l 126 Bolls
a ...£19 16 0
b ... 20 8 0
c ... 7 4 0
d ... 5 8 0
e ... 12 12 0
f ... 19 0 0
g ... 7 16 0
h ... 16 16 0
i ... 2 4 0
j ... 1 19 0
k ... 1 18 0
l £115 1 0
Average price sold at per Boll, 18s. 3d, as nearly as has been
ascertained.
Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, THOMAS TULLOCH,
examined.
12,946. You are a fish-curer and merchant at Lebidden?-Yes.
12,947. Do you employ a number of boats' crews for fishing in
summer?-Yes. I think I had about 20 altogether last year.
12,948. Are the men you employ chiefly tenants on the Simbister
estate?-No; they are on the Sandlodge part of the Sumburgh
estate.
12,949. Are they in any way restricted as to the person to whom
they are to sell their fish?-No.
12,950. Do you also buy fish in winter from any men who choose
to sell them to you?-Yes.
12,951. Have you bought any from tenants on the Quendale
estate?-No, not from Quendale tenants.
12,952. Have you bought any fish in winter from the Sumburgh
tenants in Dunrossness?-No.
12,953. Do you settle with your fishermen annually in the winter,
in the same way as other merchants do?-Yes; once at year.
12,954. Have you a shop at which they run accounts?-Yes.
12,955. I suppose they generally incur an account in the course of
the year, which runs away with part of their earnings?-Yes.
12,956. And you set the one against the other?-Yes.
12,957. Are your boats hired out to the men?-In some cases they
are, but in other cases they are their own boats.
12,958. What is the amount of the boat hire they pay?-£2 for the
summer.
12,959. Do you hire out lines and hooks also?-Very seldom.
12,960. Do you sometimes make an arrangement by which the
men buy a boat and pay for it by instalments?-Yes. It will take
about five years to pay it up.
12,961. Is that arrangement made at the beginning of the
transaction, or do you just sell the boat, and leave the men to pay
it up as they are able?-It is an arrangement which is entered into
at the beginning. They have to pay so much every year,-say £1 a
year from every man.
12,962. Do you find that the men generally manage to settle up for
their boats within the five years?-Yes, about that time.
12,963. How long does at boat last?-Some of them last longer
than others, but I should say that on an average they last about
fifteen or sixteen years.
12,964. Do you pay the same rate for the fish that are caught by
men who own a boat and by those who hire one?-The same.
12,965. Is the price which you pay for your fish generally a higher
one than the current price?-Generally it is a little higher.
12,966. What is the reason for that?-I don't know. We like to get
the services of the men, if possible.
12,967. I understand the current price last year was 8s. for ling?-I
don't think it was so much.
12,968. What did you pay?-I paid 8s. 3d. in 1870, and 8s. 9d. in
1871.
12,969. Do you think the current price was less than 8s.?-I think
so, but I am not quite certain.
12,970. Are you obliged to give a higher price in consequence of
competition among fish-curers in your neighbourhood?-No.
12,971. Then why do you do it?-We just want to satisfy the men.
12,972. Do the men in your district require a higher price than
their neighbours in order to be satisfied?-Yes; they want a higher
price, and it has been paid for some years back.
12,973. Can you account for that in any way?-No. I once got into
the way of giving a little more than the currency, and the men have
always looked for it since.
12,974. Were not the men in your district, until lately, bound to
fish for a tacksman, Robert Mouat?-Not in our district. The men
who fished for him lived at some distance from me.
12,975. Have you settled this year?-Yes.
12,976. What would be about the average amount of cash which
each man had to receive at settlement?-I should say about £4.
12,977. Would the amount of his earning from the fishing be £12
or £15 on an average?-Not so much. It might be about £8 or £9.
12,978. Has the fishing in your neighbourhood been less successful
this year than in other parts of Shetland?-It has been less
successful for some time back, but last year it has done very well;
I should suppose about an average.
12,979. Some of your men, I suppose, would have nothing to take
at settlement?-Yes, some had nothing.
12,980. They had exhausted the amount of their earnings by
advances in shop goods?-Yes, and in money advances too.
The advances were not all in shop goods.
12,981. Do they often ask for advances before the end of the
season?-Often.
12,982. Do you think it would be an advantage if they were paid
more frequently for their fish?-I don't think so. I think they
would not get such high prices.
12,983. Do you mean that if the price were fixed at the beginning
of the season, the merchant would be cautious about fixing a high
price?-Yes.
12,984. But if the prices varied from time to time, according to the
state of the market, would the men not be better to have the money
in their own hands, and then they would have a chance of a
variable price?-In that case they would; but some people don't
know how [Page 322] to take care of their money when they get it.
They don't know how to lay it out.
12,985. If they had money in their own hands, would they not learn
to take care of it?-I don't know. I think it would be rather a
difficult matter to learn some of them.
12,986. What other fish-curers are there in your neighbourhood?-
Mr. Smith. There is no other merchant in the immediate
neighbourhood. Mr. Harrison has also some curing done there.
12,987. Has he a station there?-Yes; it is about mile from my
place.
12,988. How far is Mr. Smith from you?-He is next door.
12,989. Is there not a good deal of competition between you
three?-Not much.
12,990. Are you not all anxious to get a larger number of boats to
fish for you?-Of course.
12,991. Has not that some effect upon the price which you offer
for the fishing?-Perhaps it has a little.
12,992. Do you think if you were the only curer there, you would
be able to get your men to give you their fish for 8s.?-Perhaps I
might, if they could get no other body to take them, and who
would give them more.
12,993. Have you always given the same price as Mr. Smith, or is
there sometimes a difference between you?-There never is any
difference.
12,994. How long have you been in business there?-For fifteen
years.
12,995. How long has he been there?-I think about sixteen or
seventeen years.
12,996. Do his men sometimes shift from him to you, or the other
way?-Yes, sometimes.
12,997. Is there any particular reason for that?-I cannot say; I
suppose it is just their fancy.
12,998. Is a man more likely to shift when he is in your debt, or
when he is out of it?-When he is out of it.
12,999. When he is in your debt, does he like to continue to fish
for you until his debt is paid off?-Sometimes he does.
13,000. Have you any arrangement with Mr. Smith by which,
when a man changes from one place to the other, the new
employer takes in hand the debt which the man is due to his
former employer; or becomes responsible for it?-There is no
arrangement of that kind between us.
13,001. Have you sometimes done that?-I believe I have done it.
13,002. Have you undertaken a debt due to Mr. Smith?-Yes,
when it was not very much.
13,003. And you have got it from the man at the end of the season,
or as soon as he was able to pay it, and handed it over to Mr.
Smith?-Yes; he either got it, or it was set down in his book.
13,004. How often may that have happened?-Not very often.
13,005. Has it been done lately?-Yes.
13,006. I suppose it is not an unusual thing in the fishing trade for
that to be done?-It is not unusual. Of course, the curer that the
man leaves expects him to pay his debt when he does leave.
13,007. Are you responsible to any landlords for the rents of their
tenants?-No.
13,008. Do you, in point of fact, sometimes pay the fishermen's
rents for them?-Yes, to Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh.
13,009. That is to say, the fishermen, instead of getting the money
from you, have the amount of their rent entered in their accounts,
and you pay the whole in a cheque to Mr. Bruce?-Yes; but in
some cases I give the money to the men.
13,010. How do you pay it to the landlord when it is paid by you to
him?-I just give Mr. Bruce a cheque for the whole when it is
collected together.
13,011. How many men's rents may you have paid in that way last
year?-I think about six. I gave money to the others, and they
handed it to Mr. Bruce themselves.
13,012. Is there any arrangement with the landlord that you should
do that?-None.
13,013. Does he sometimes apply to you for the rents of particular
men?-No.
13,014. Do you sometimes buy cattle?-No.
13,015. Do you buy eggs?-Yes.
13,016. Do you pay for them in goods?-Yes.
13,017. Have you two prices for them, as they are paid in goods or
in cash?-No. If the people did want cash I would not like to give
them so much in cash as in goods, because it is cash that I look for
in return.
13,018. But I suppose you are never asked for cash payment for
eggs?-Very seldom.
13,019. What is the price of meal at your shop just now?-I think
Scotch meal is about 5s. a quarter, or 20s. a boll.
13,020. What was it in the summer of 1870?-I don't remember.
13,021. What was it last summer?-I think it was about 5s. or 6s.
up or down, according to the market.
Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, JAMES SMITH, examined.
13,022. You are a merchant and fish-curer at Hill Cottage,
Sandwick?-I am.
13,023. Your shop is near that of Mr. Tulloch?-Yes, next door.
13,024. You have heard his evidence?-Yes.
13,025. Do you conduct your business in the same way?-The
very same.
13,026. How many boats do you employ?-I had about twenty last
summer.
13,027. What did you pay for you fish then?-8s. 9d., and I
understand the current price of the country has been 8s.
13,028. Have you paid 9d. more than the currency?-Yes, on ling.
13,029. Did you pay as much higher a price for cod and tusk?-
No. We paid 7s. for cod and tusk, and I understand the current
price of the country has been 6s. 6d. We paid 4s. 3d. for saith, and
I understand the current price has been 4s.
13,030. Do you generally pay as much above the current price as
you have done last year?-No, not as general thing.
13,031. Can you assign any reason for your price this year being so
much higher?-No, I cannot assign any particular reason.
13,032. Is it not in order that you may get as many fishermen as
you require?-The great reason is to try to please the fishermen as
far as possible; and in our quarter they are very bad to please.
13,033. Why do you want to please them?-To get them to fish for
us. We are anxious to have as many fishermen as possible. There
is one thing which enables Mr. Tulloch and I to pay somewhat
higher prices than the currency; which is, that our curing places
are very near to ourselves, and we can always see the curing
carried on, and can cure cheaper.
13,034. Do any of the fishermen in your district cure for
themselves?-Yes.
13,035. Do you buy from them?-Sometimes. They sell to us if
they choose.
13,036. Do you think the fish which they cure are as good as
yours?-Not unless they have a factor. When they cure them by
their own hands they are never so good.
13,037. What do you mean by them having a factor?-A man set
over the fish to look after the curing of them, the same as I have.
13,038. Do the fishermen who cure for themselves have a
factor?-Yes; the men at our place have a man to whom they pay
so much per ton per every ton of dried fish which are produced.
13,039. In that case, where the fishermen agree to employ a factor,
do you think the curing is as well done as it is by you?-It is, when
they get an experienced man for the purpose.
[Page 323]
13,040. In that case do the men club together in order to buy
implements, vats, and other things for curing?-Yes.
13,041. It is it sort of co-operative system?-Yes.
13,042. Do you do anything in hosiery?-No.
13,043. Do you buy eggs, and pay for them in goods?-Yes.
13,044. Are the prices of the goods in your shop the same as in Mr.
Tulloch's?-They are generally the same.
13,045. What is the price of meal at present?-Scotch oatmeal is
20s. a boll, or 5s. a quarter; Shetland meal is only 3s. or 3s. 6d.
13,046. Is the Shetland oatmeal of much inferior quality?-As a
general thing, it is much inferior. There is not much of it sold.
The people generally use their own meal, and it is much to be
regretted that they require a great deal more than what they can
grow.
13,047. Do you think you could manage to pay your people,
without much inconvenience, as the fish are landed?-I think I
might manage that, but I don't think it would be for the public
good. In the first place, the fishermen would not be able to get the
fishing articles and the quantity of meal they require before the
fishing commenced, because they would not have money to pay for
them. Another reason is, that if they had the money they don't
very well know how to manage it, and it would be spent before
rent time came. Then, if they had no money, the landlord would
have to go and take their corn or their cattle and roup them in order
to get his rent, and the people would be losers.
13,048. Do you think one advantage of the present system is, that it
carries the men through a bad year?-Yes. Last year we had a very
good fishing, but the majority of them had their rents to get. For as
few fishermen as I have, I had to advance them in order to help
them to pay their rents.
13,049. Do you sometimes pay their rents for them?-I do so, as a
general thing. It is expected that the fish-merchant will not see
them at a loss; but, of course, if a ready-money system was
introduced, they could not look to the fish-merchant for any help.
13,050. Why should they not look to him then?-If I only had the
men engaged from voyage to voyage, or from week to week, and
did not have the advantage of knowing that they were to fish for
me next year, it could not be expected that I would advance them
£140 to help them in paying their rents for this year.
13,051. But perhaps they would not need it if they were in the habit
of getting their money?-In my opinion, they would need it more
than they do now.
13,052. Have not other people than fishermen sometimes to pay
rents?-Yes.
13,053. And they manage to have it in hand when the rent day
comes?-Yes; but these people, as a general rule, have bigger
farms, and cattle and ponies that they sell, and that helps them on
with their rents.
13,054. But there are rents to be paid by people who have small
farms, or no farms at all; and if they manage to gather up for their
rent day, might not the fishermen do so as well?-They might do
so; but in our quarter-and I can only speak for it-the great
majority of the people have enough to do when there is a good
season, and when there is a bad one they are far short.
13,055. Then I suppose the reason which you are now assigning
for keeping up the present system is rounded upon your opinion,
that the people of Shetland are less careful and less sensible than
people of the same class in other parts of Scotland?-I don't
believe they are less sensible than the fishermen or men of the
same class elsewhere. I believe there are as competent men in
Shetland, as a general rule, as in any other part of Scotland; but the
fishing is a very fluctuating piece of business, and I think that very
often they could not manage to save up money for their rent if
there was a cash system. Of course there are differences among
them. There are some men in our quarter who are laying past
money, while there are others who are overhead in debt, in spite of
all that can be done for them.
13,056. I understand you have been frequently at Fair Isle?-I
think it is about six or seven years since I was there last, but I was
very often there before. I had a small vessel of my own, and I
went to the Isle to barter goods with the people. I bartered them
for cash, not for fish.
13,057. Did you go there every year for some time?-I went three
or four times in some years, and I continued going for seven or
eight years.
13,058. Did you go as a private speculation of your own?-Yes.
13,059. What kind of goods did you take?-Tea, sugar, tobacco
and cottons.
13,060. Was there any particular reason for giving up that trade?-
No; I was getting tired of it.
13,061. Did you find it a hazardous sort of thing?-It was very
much so: I ran many a risk of losing my life. It was an open
vessel, without a deck, that I went in, and in the winter time the
coast there is very dangerous.
13,062. Was the market open at that time at Fair Isle?-Generally
in the winter time it was.
13,063. Was it not open in the summer time also?-Not so
much, because the man who had it in tack generally supplied the
fishermen at that time with their stores and meal. I made one or
two trips there with meal, because the people sent for me to bring
it, as their master could not get their meal forwarded so quickly
from Orkney as they required it.
13,064. Who was the tacksman then?-John Hughson from
Orkney.
13,065. Have you been there since he ceased to be tacksman?-
Never.
13,066. Was your trade with the Fair Isle people objected to by
him?-He never objected to me.
13,067. Did he object to any one else?-Not to my knowledge.
13,068. Then you could trade with the people as much as you
pleased?-Yes; there was no restriction whatever. I very often
spoke with Mr. Hughson himself.
13,069. Did you stop at the time when Hughson ceased to be
tacksman?-I was almost giving up the trade before he ceased to
be tacksman. His time was not quite run out the last time I was
there.
13,070. Who succeeded Mr. Hughson as tacksman?-Mr. John
Bruce, jun., of Sumburgh.
13,071. You have not been there since he became tacksman?-
Never as a trader. I was there once when a ship was wrecked on
the Seil. I have made a mistake there: I have been once at the
island trading since Mr. Bruce bought it, and I had full liberty from
him to go.
13,072. Did you get express permission from him?-Yes.
13,073. When was that?-I don't remember; it may have been four
or five years ago.
13,074. Why did you ask permission?-He wished me to go in
with goods to the people, and I told him I did not like to go with
freight there unless he would allow me to trade for myself; and
then he gave me full liberty.
13,075. Was Mr. Bruce not sending a vessel of his own at that
time?-He could not get a vessel to go. It is such a nasty coast for
inexperienced men, that it is difficult to get men to venture there.
13,076. You agreed to go only on condition that you had the trade
in your own hands?-Yes; and I had his freight in the meantime.
13,077. Did you understand at that time that you were not at
liberty to trade with the Fair Isle people without Mr. Bruce's
permission?-I did not understand anything about it. He only
asked me to go with freight, and I asked him if I would be at
liberty to trade with the people myself, and he said I would.
13,078. Did he not say that it was only for this special occasion
that you were to have liberty?-He did not.
[Page 324]
Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, 1872 JOHN HALCROW,
examined.
13,079. You are a fisherman at Levenwick?-I am.
13,080. On whose property is your ground?-On that of Mr. Bruce
of Simbister.
13,081. Was that ground formerly under tack to Robert Mouat?-
Yes. His tack expired about a year ago; but before that, he had
become bankrupt.
13,082. Were you bound to fish for him?-Yes.
13,083. Were you also obliged to deal at his shop?-No. I had a
little money of my own, and I went to any merchant that I thought
I
could get the best bargain from.
13,084. Did you go to Mouat for a good bargain?-No.
13,085. Why?-Because he never had good bargains. The quality
of his articles was not good, and the price was dearer than that of
any merchant in the neighbourhood.
13,086. Were many men in the habit of dealing with him?-Mr.
Bruce's tenantry both in Channerwick and Levenwick were bound
to fish for him.
13,087. But did they deal with him for shop goods and
provisions?-Yes, almost all of them dealt with him.
13,088. Why?-Because they were bound to do it.
13,089. Were they bound to deal with him for shop goods?-The
fishermen were. They were required to go to him with all their
produce, meal, ponies, and eggs, as well as with their fish.
13,090. But they were not bound to buy their goods from him?-
No; but they had to do so, because he received all their produce,
and they could not go anywhere else. They had no money.
13,091. Would he not give them money for their produce?-Yes,
for such as cattle he would. But it was very few of them who had
any money to get from him.
13,092. Why?-Because they were bound to fish for him, and he
received all their fish.
13,093. But if he received all their fish he would have to pay them
money for them?-It was very hard to get it from him.
13,094. Did he prefer to give them the price in goods?-Yes, if
they would take it.
13,095. And did they take it in goods?-Not very much.
13,096. Why?-Because they were not very good.
13,097. Then they would have money to get, at the end of the year
if they did not take very much in goods?-Yes.
13,098. Did they get the money at the end of the year?-No. He
said he did not have it to give them.
13,099. Then they did not get their money at all?-In some cases
they got it.
13,100. But some of them did not get it?-Yes.
13,101. And some of them did not get goods either?-Yes; they
would not take his goods.
13,102. Then did they go without either money or goods?-Yes.
13,103. Was that often?-I have had to do it myself.
13,104. When was that?-In 1870. He said he had no money to
give me.
13,105. Was that at settlement?-Yes. He had the tack for two
years more at that time, and he gave me a receipt for the rent of
1871. Then he failed; and I had to pay my rent for 1871 over again
to Mr William Irvine.
13,106. Why did you give Mouat your rent for 1871 nearly two
years before it was due?-Because I thought he was to have the
tack for two years more.
13,107. But it was your own fault, was it not that you had to pay it
twice?-I don't know about that.
13,108. Could you not have got the money from Mouat?-No. I
would have had to apply to the civil law to get it.
13,109. You could have got the value of it in goods from him?-
Yes. I could have got it in goods; but they were of an inferior
quality, and I did not want to take them. [The witness produced a
receipt for the rent of 1871 from Mr. William Irvine, and also
receipt from Mouat in the following terms:
'£5 MOUL, 13<th Jn>. 1871.
' This is to certify that I have from Thomas Halcrow the rent of
1871 in my hands. ROBT. MO.']
13,110. Is that Mouat's signature?-Yes; it is what I got from him.
13,111. Did you see him write it?-I did.
13,112. Do you know any other men who paid rent to Mouat in the
same way?-I don't know of any others who paid him in that
particular way, but I know some men who had money in his hands.
13,113. Was John Mouat one of them?-Yes. He had money in
Robert Mouat's hands by the fishing.
13,114. Was he not able to get his money at the settlement of
1870?-No. I know that he could not get it.
13,115. Do you know anything about that except that he could not
get it?-No.
13,116. You have another document in your hands: what is it?-It
is a copy of our account from Mr. Smith for the fishing.
13,117. Do you get a copy of your accounts from Mr. Smith at
every settlement?-Yes. I have only settled with him one year.
13,118. This is an account for two men; and it shows the prices
you got in 1871,-ling 8s. 9d., cod 7s., tusk 7s., and saith 4s.
3d.?-Yes.
13,119. Did you get all that in cash?-Yes, except what I had
received in cash before. I had received a little cash in the course
of
the summer. I had got no advances from him in goods, because his
shop was so far from where I lived.
13,120. Why are the two men's accounts in the same slip of
paper?-Because there are five of us who go in one boat; and three
men agreed to fish for Mr. John Robertson, jun. and two for Mr.
James Smith.
13,121. Whose boat was it?-James Gilbertson was the skipper;
and the boat belonged to the men.
13,122. Is it a usual arrangement, that part of the crew fish to one
merchant and part to another?-No.
13,123. How did it happen in this case?-Because we wanted our
liberty. We did not want to agree to fish for Mr. John Robertson.
13,124. Would you not have been at liberty if you had fished for
Mr. Robertson?-Our reason for not fishing for him was because
Robert Mouat called all his tenants to the Moul, and ordered them
to agree to fish for Mr. John Robertson for him two rising years.
13,125. Was Mr. John Robertson Mouat's trustee in his
sequestration?-Yes.
13,126. Some of you declined to fish for him, and others engaged
to fish?-Yes.
Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, GILBERT IRVINE,
examined.
13,127. Are you shopkeeper at Grutness to Mr. John Bruce,
jun.?-I am.
13,128. Do you also act as factor on the estate?-I don't know that
I could be called a factor exactly. I just do things about the estate
as Mr. Bruce wishes me.
13,129. But you are sometimes employed as, a factor or overseer
going about the estate?-Yes, at times.
13,130. Are you aware that the tenants on the Sumburgh estate in
Dunrossness parish are under tack to Mr. John Bruce, jun., and are
bound to deliver their fish to him?-It is understood that they are
to do so, but some of them don't do it. There are some of them
who have not fished for Mr. Bruce, and are not are very doing so
at the present time; but these are very few. The general
understanding is, that they are to deliver their fish to him.
13,131. How long have you been at Grutness?-About
twenty-three or twenty-four years.
13,132. I believe it was about 1860 that Mr Bruce took the tack?-
Yes.
13,133. How were you employed at Grutness before [Page 325]
then?-I was there for Messrs. Hay & Co. They had the shop
there formerly, and some of the men belonging to that estate were
employed by them as fishermen.
13,134. Do you remember intimation being made to the tenants
about 1860 that they were expected to fish for Mr. Bruce?-Yes. I
think there was some person sent round with a letter to that effect,
but I did not see the letter.
13,135. However, you know that such an intimation was made?-I
understood so.
13,136 Do you remember, a good many years ago, of one James
Brown at Toab selling some fish to Robert Leslie?-I don't
remember about that at present.
13,137. Do you remember of James Brown's farm being
advertised to be let at the shop, a ticket being put up there?-I
don't remember about that.
13,138. May it have happened, although you do not remember?-
It is possible it may have happened; but I don't remember anything
about it at the present moment.
13,139. Can you say that such a thing did not happen twelve years
ago?-I think James Brown had not got a farm twelve years ago.
13,140. Perhaps it was his father?-I never knew his father. I
think his father was dead before James Brown came to the parish.
13,141. Do you remember any case of a farm being advertised
because the tenant had sold his fish, or attempted to sell them, to
another merchant?-I do not remember any case of a farm being
advertised for man selling fish. The tenants have been reproved
for doing so; but I cannot remember of any farm being advertised
for that.
13,142. Have you spoken to them about doing such things?-Very
likely I have.
13,143. Do you know one Thomas Aitken?-Yes.
13,144 Do you know whether he had to sign a paper agreeing to
fish for Mr. Bruce so long as he lived on the ground?-I did not
see the paper.
13,145. It was not through you that that was done?-No.
13,146. Was there any special arrangement with him about
fishing?-I don't remember anything about it. If there was such
an arrangement, it would be with Mr. Bruce.
13,147. You say you have sometimes reproved the tenants for
selling their fish to others?-Yes. There have been some seasons
when, from the end of October until May, they delivered none at
all, or not more than perhaps one cwt. or so. I believe most of
them have not delivered more than that during the whole time.
13,148. But that was their winter fishing?-Yes.
13,149. Have you said to them that they ought to deliver some of
their winter fish to you?-I told them, even last year, that if the
proprietor was aware that they were selling all their fish to other
merchants, he would be offended at them, or something to that
effect.
13,150. Had that any effect?-Not much.
13,151. They did not bring their winter fish to you?-No.
13,152. Would it be as convenient for them to bring their winter
fish to you as to another?-Mr. Bruce had a station at the beach
head, and a factor, who was paid all the season round, for taking
fish, and salt and everything ready for them, but they would not
bring them to him.
13,153. Where did they go with them?-I don't know, I suppose to
the merchants round about.
13,154. Did they go to Messrs. Hay & Co., or to Quendale?-I
could not say where they went.
13,155. Why did they not choose to come to you?-I don't know.
It is a general practice in Shetland, that tenants fishing for
landlords try to do as much trade with other merchants as they can.
13,156. What has been their reason for that practice?-I think the
fact that they fish for their landlords has created a kind of feeling
that they are rather in bondage.
13,157. And they like to have their liberty in winter?-I think
their feeling is, that they don't like the proprietor to know all their
transactions. That has been a practice in Shetland for a long time,
both in the north and the south.
13,158. Have you had occasion to reprove the tenants for carrying
off their fish or smuggling them to other merchants in summer?-I
think I have done so once or twice. I remember on one occasion
seeing a boat coming from the sea to land their fish. I counted the
fish they had in the boat; I don't recollect the number, but they
were not all brought to the store. I made inquiry about that, and
found that some of the fish had been taken to other merchants; but
I never told Mr. Bruce about it.
13,159. Your settlements at Grutness are made every year?-Yes,
once a year.
13,160. What is the usual period at which the settlements are
completed?-In some years Mr. Bruce has begun towards the end
of January; but last year, on account of him being out of the way,
and me not having the accounts ready, the settlement went on as
late as April.
13,161. Are the balances of these settlements always paid in
cash?-Yes; they are readily paid. Mr. Bruce always did that.
13,162. Do you sometimes make advances in money to the men in
the course of the summer?-I do not make these advances. Mr.
Bruce sometimes does so and when at settlement some of them are
in debt, he gives them money in advance. It very seldom happens
that a man, even when he is in debt at settlement, will not ask him
for some shillings, or for £2 or £3, and he always gives it to them,
although they have no money to get, but have been in his debt for
some time.
13,163. Do the men run accounts at your shop at Grutness as they
do with other merchants, for the purpose of supplying their
families and of getting supplies for the fishing?-Yes; what they
get is chiefly meal and hooks, and things of that kind. We do not
do much in dry goods.
13,164. Except outfits for the fishermen?-Yes, except what we
cannot avoid giving them.
13,165. At what time of the year are your transactions with the
fishermen largest?-In summer. While the fishing is going on,
our place is very busy.
13,166. Is that the season when the meal of the fishermen
themselves is exhausted?-Yes. I have seen in bad years, when
there was a poor crop in Shetland, that they had to get meal
supplied to them so early as February; but for 2 or 3 years back the
crops have been better, and most of the men have carried on till
April or May without requiring any advances of that kind.
13,167. Then your principal sales of meal are in the summer
time?-Yes. We seldom do anything in it after the crop has been
got in, except perhaps in the case of a person who has had a very
poor crop, or no crop at all, and then we may give him some.
13,168. The quantity of meal which each man gets is entered in the
ledger account in your book at the time that he gets it?-Yes; we
just keep one ledger account. Sometimes the meal is marked on
slips of paper or in a little book when I am out of the way, but I try
to enter all these things in the ledger daily.
13,169. But they are all entered in the ledger account, although
there may be some little delay in entering them?-Yes; every
person has all his dealings entered in one account.
13,170. I understand, from what I saw in the books last night, and
from what you mentioned to me, that you don't fix the price of the
meal when it is given out?-No. I don't know yet the current
price of bear meal for this year.
13,171. At first you only enter the quantity that is given out?-
Yes.
13,172. And the price of the meal is fixed at settlement?-Yes, or
some time before it, in order that I may get the account extended
and added up.
13,173. In what way is the price of the meal fixed for the year?-It
is generally taken on an average. In 1870, for instance, which is
the last year for which there has been a settlement, meal was pretty
low in [Page 326] the spring, varying from 18s. to 19s. per boll,
and it rose during the season until it was somewhere about £1, if
not above it. These changes frequently take place in the markets;
and in fixing the price for a particular year, we generally make an
average of the prices from first to last. If we were not to do that,
then it might chance that the poorest people might get the whole of
their meal at the dearest price, or when the price of meal was
highest; but the way in which we take it makes it more equal over
all.
13,174. Do you take the average according to the whole quantity
of meal which you have sold?-Yes. We add up the total amount
of meal sold, and the prices per boll which the meal has cost. I
don't do that, but I believe that is the way in which it is done. It
is generally done by Mr. Bruce himself, but I have a general
understanding about it. For instance, if 20 bolls cost a certain
figure, and 30 bolls cost another figure, if we add the amounts
together, and take the average of the whole, we know what to sell
it for. That is the way in which I would do it, and I believe it is
the way in which it is done.
13,175. You first strike the average of the wholesale price, and
then you allow a certain amount of profit upon that?-Yes. We
include the expense of bringing it here, and then we make an
average price accordingly.
13,176. Do some of the fishermen who deal at your shop have
pass-books?-Very few; but I think a great many of them keep
accounts themselves. I never saw many men settling who did not
know what quantity of meal they had had.
13,177. Have you sometimes objected to the trouble of keeping
pass-books for the men?-I don't recollect doing that, but I
might have said that it was vexatious. I think there were two or
three cases in which I was anxious that the people should have
pass-books, and I began them with them. They came with them
for a certain time, but then they would come without the book, and
that confused me altogether. However, I never was very much
asked to keep pass-books for them, and the fact is that it would
have been almost out of my power to have attended to them. I am
frequently out of the shop, and there are days when the men are
coming ashore in large numbers, on which we could scarcely have
time to mark down the meal.
13,178. Have you a fixed day in the week for giving out meal?-
We have had a fixed day for some years back. Formerly we had
no particular day, but we could not get them to understand the
quantity of meal that was to be disposed of; and as there are some
people to whom we only allow a certain quantity of meal per
week, we have found it better to fix a particular day on which they
are to come for it. People who have credit, or who have money in
Mr. Bruce's hands, can come any day and get what they please, so
that there are scarcely any days in the week when some is not
given out; but the bulk is given out on a particular day, generally
on a Friday.
13,179. You said just now that certain people had to be restricted
to a given quantity of meal: are these people who are in debt?-
Yes, and people who have been in debt. If it had not been for that
restriction, there are some people on the estate who were in debt
not long ago, and who would still have been in debt.
13,180. I thought it was because they were in debt that you
restricted them?-No; we restricted some because they might
have got into debt. We just gave them an allowance sufficient to
support them through the week; but if we had given them more, or
given them what they wanted, they would have taken double the
quantity. These, however, are only a few individuals; in general
the people are much more careful.
13,181. When you put parties on an allowance in that way, are
they generally people who have had a balance against them at
settlement the year before?-Generally they are. Some of them
may have been in debt £8 or £10, and some as high as £20, and it
is these people we put on an allowance in order to try to keep
them going.
13,182. Do people who have no balance against them, and who
can get an unlimited supply of meal, come to you on Fridays along
with the rest?-Sometimes, and sometimes not; they just come as
they choose.
13,183. Do they frequently not come to you at all for meal?-
There are few of them who don't come for meal; but the
greater part of the men at Dunrossness are generally in good
circumstances, and have the command of money, and they
generally buy their meal in Lerwick, or where they can get it
cheapest.
13,184. In looking at your books last night, of course I did not find
the prices for meal entered for the year 1871?-No.
13,185. But I saw that a lispund of bear meal in 1870 was charged
at 4s. 6d.?-I think the lispunds were 4s. 4d., and the quarter bolls
4s. 6d.
13,186. I noticed also that you sometimes charged what you call a
lispund at a different price?-Yes; when we break a boll and sell it
in quarters, we generally call it a lispund. Sometimes two or three
men may get a boll and divide it among themselves, and it is
generally charged to them as lispunds. That accounts for the
lispund sometimes being charged at one price and sometimes at
another.
13,187. When you do actually weigh out a quarter boll, you charge
it at 4s. 6d.?-We seldom weigh that out. They take the boll and
divide it among themselves; we seldom weigh it.
13,188. When the prices are not entered until the end of the
season, how do you know whether to charge for a quarter boll
or for a lispund, when you have put it in your book in the first
instance as a lispund in both cases?-I had slips of paper or a little
pass-book, and when we gave the meal out we had a line for the
boll weight and a line for the lispund.
13,189. What is done with the lines?-We have some of them yet.
13,190. Do you file them?-No. We rule the small pass-book, and
have a place in which we enter the lines, so many for lispunds, so
many for bolls, and so many for quarter bolls, or whatever it may
be.
13,191. Do you call that book the weighing-book?-Yes. It is
generally only part of the meal that is entered there.
13,192. When you are putting in the prices at the end of the season
do you go over all the entries in that book, and all the entries in the
ledger account as well?-There is a great deal of the meal that we
never keep any slips for, but just enter it direct into the ledger and
we know which of these people are getting lispunds, and which are
getting quarter bolls.
13,193. How do you know that?-At the beginning of the season
we know quite well the people we are giving the meal to regularly,
and those who just get it as they come.
13,194. Are there certain people who always get it in lispunds, and
others who always get it in quarter bolls?-Yes.
13,195. And you know which is which?-Yes, because the people
who get it regularly generally get it in lispunds; and sometimes if
we give them a boll or half a boll, we mark it in the ledger at once.
13,196. Then you say that bear meal in 1870 was charged at 4s. 4d.
per lispund, and 4s. 6d. per quarter boll?-I think so.
13,197. And a lispund of oatmeal in 1870 was 5s. 6d.?-I think it
was 22s. per boll, or 11s. 6d. per half boll, but I cannot say exactly.
I think the price per lispund was 5s. 4d.
13,198. Then the entry which I noted of half a lispund of oatmeal
in 1870-2s. 9d., would be for one half of a quarter boll?-I
would suppose so; but I could not be sure about that unless I saw
the entry.
13,199. But although you saw the entry, that would not help
you?-It would not, but I could not say anything positive about
that.
13,200. I received this piece of half-bleached cotton from you
[showing], which you sell at 41/2d. a yard?-Yes.
13,201. Also this piece [showing], which you sell at 8d.?-Yes.
[Page 327]
13,202. And this piece of shirting [showing], which you sell at
1s.?-Yes.
13,203. These were all got from J. & W. Campbell, Glasgow?-
Yes.
13,204. You sell your tobacco at 4d. per oz.?-Yes. We have two
kinds, both sold at 4d. or 15d. per quarter lb.
13,205. Is that the price, whether it is entered in the account or
sold for cash?-We very seldom sell for cash, but the price is the
same in both cases.
13,206. Do you not take cash in the shop at all?-Yes, we take it if
we get it; but we never have the chance of getting much of it. We
get a few shillings occasionally. I don't think we get so much cash
in the course of the year as will pay for postages.
13,207. That shows that your business is entirely for the supply of
your own fishermen?-Entirely; and Mr. Bruce was never inclined
to increase the trade as a shop trade. It is only to accommodate the
fishermen that the things are kept.