<Present>-Mr Guthrie.
GEORGE GEORGESON, examined.
12,026. You are a merchant at Bayhall, in the parish of Walls?-I
am.
12,027. How long have you been in business there?-I have been
in business in Walls for about twenty-seven years. My place of
business is in the village in the centre of the parish.
12,028. Are your customers principally of the class of fishermen
and tenants?-They are mostly fishermen and farmers. The
greater part of my business is in ready money transactions.
12,029. Are there some farmers there who do not go to the
fishing?-There are some small crofters, but they all go to the
fishing. These parties are not confined to me in the business
they do. They can go where they choose. I supply them, and
they pay me once a year.
12,030. Are you engaged in the fish-curing business yourself to
any extent?-I do not cure fish now. At one time, about twenty or
twenty-five years ago, I cured fish, and had some small vessels, but
I don't do anything in that way now at all.
12,031. You say your transactions are mostly for ready money?-
Yes, mostly.
[Page 296]
12,032. But I suppose you have some accounts when you have a
customer that you can trust?-Yes.
12,033. And with him, as you said, you settle every year?-Yes.
12,034. Are there many of these accounts in your business?-
There may be some hundreds of them; I cannot say how many.
12,035. Does not every one of your customers open an account in
that way?-Not every one; perhaps not above one-third of them.
12,036. You have an annual settlement with them?-When we
get an annual settlement, we consider that to be very good.
Sometimes it does not come up to that; but we would like it every
three months if possible.
12,037. Are many of your transactions settled by means of
barter?-Not many.
12,038. In what way is that system of barter carried on with you?
Is it by the purchase of eggs and other produce?-Yes; eggs are
looked upon as money. We make no difference upon the price of
our goods whether they are paid for in eggs or money. With regard
to hosiery, our trade is a mere nothing. I think would cover all that
I buy in the year.
12,039. Do you pay for hosiery in cash at all?-No.
12,040. I suppose the system that prevails with you is very much
the same as that which exists in Lerwick?-It is not the same as in
that town at all. The difference is, that we do not manufacture
goods to order. We merely buy them when they are offered to us,
if they please us. I don't think there is any other difference.
12,041. Is the price you fix for the hosiery generally such as to
allow you a profit upon the sale of it?-It is not; sometimes we
really pay more for it than we get.
12,042. But do you sometimes look for a profit upon it?-If we
look for a profit we don't get it out of the hosiery. If we have a
profit, it must be upon the goods that are given in exchange for it,
because we often sell hosiery below its value, according to its
value here.
12,043. But I suppose you sell it below its real value only in
consequence of some change in the market, or some
miscalculation?-Perhaps that is the case; but, in point of fact,
we don't buy hosiery as a trade. We are forced to buy it. We
don't care for that trade at all, because we always lose by it.
12,044. In fixing the price to be given for the hosiery goods, don't
you endeavour to make it at such a figure as will at least keep you
safe, and possibly allow you a small profit on the hosiery itself?-I
cannot say that we do. We are forced to take the hosiery as a
matter of business. We don't deal in that at all, so to speak.
12,045. But don't you endeavour to fix the price at such a figure as
would allow you a profit?-Of course we do, so far as we can; but
in many cases we sell the hosiery goods below what we paid for
them.
12,046. Do you sell them in Lerwick, or send them south?-We
send them to Scotland. We don't sell them in Lerwick at all.
12,047. In what other departments of your business does a barter
system prevail?-I may say that, except in eggs and hosiery, our
trade is principally for cash and we deal in barter for eggs because
we look upon them as being the same as money.
12,048. Do you give the full price for eggs?-Yes.
12,049. Do you pay for them principally in tea?-In anything the
people want. It is all the same to us. If they want cash, and we
pay a few shillings in cash, then we pay a halfpenny less per dozen
for the eggs; but that is all the difference we make otherwise we
treat them the same as cash.
12,050. Do you purchase a considerable quantity of eggs in that
way?-I cannot state the amount exactly.
12,051. Do you send a box south by every steamer?-Yes, and
sometimes more than that in the season. Perhaps we send a couple
of boxes in the season when they are being brought in.
12,052. Do you send 10 or 20 dozen?-More than that. We can
put, perhaps, from 70 to 100 dozen in a box, and we may have two
such boxes a week in the season.
12,053. And these, as a rule, are all paid for in goods?-Yes.
12,054. At what time of the year do you generally get your
accounts settled?-The fishermen settle their accounts generally
about November or December.
12,055. Is that after having settled with the fishcurers?-Yes. I
supply the men with what they want through the season until that
time, and then they settle. Most of the men who deal with me cure
their own fish, and sell them the best way they can.
12,056. Is it a common thing in your district for the fishermen to
cure their own fish?-Yes; they have liberty to do that.
12,057. To whom are the sales of these fish made?-They sell
them anywhere they choose. Sometimes they send them south, but
principally they sell them to Garriock & Co. The men are rather
confined in that way. They don't have exactly their free will to
sell them, unless merely a little.
12,058. Do you mean that they have not their free will to sell their
fish where they like?-They have that way; but where a proprietor
is dealing in fish, the men are generally expected to sell to him.
12,059. Are Messrs. Garriock & Co. factors for some of the
proprietors there?-Yes. They are factors for the estate of Dr.
Scott of Melby.
12,060. Do the men look upon themselves as being bound?-They
are not really bound. They have a little liberty.
12,061. But they think they ought to sell their fish to Garriock &
Co. rather than to another?-Yes, that is what is understood, but
they are not really bound.
12,062. In what way have you observed that feeling among the
men, that they ought to sell to Garriock & Co.? Do they
sometimes speak of it to you?-If Garriock & Co. offered them
the same price as other merchants, they consider they ought to give
them the preference; that is the only way in which I have seen it.
12,063. Would they sell to Garriock & Co. if they were offered a
less price?-I don't think they would.
12,064. They would be independent enough not to agree to that?-
I think so. But there is a confusion there. I could not enter into
explanations upon that point fully.
12,065. Why?-Because I don't think it is necessary.
12,066. But that is just the very point I want to know about. What
have you to say with regard to it?-I know that sometimes, if I
were offering the same price as Garriock & Co., I would not get
the fish from the men.
12,067. Have you tried that recently?-I have.
12,068. Were you willing to resume the business of buying fish?-
Certainly.
12,069. But the competition of Garriock & Co. was too much for
you?-Not the competition, because I offered the same price, and
perhaps even more, and could not get them.
12,070. Do you mean that Garriock & Co. had such an advantage
over you, from their position as factors and proprietors in the
district, that you could not venture to compete with them?-Yes, I
ventured, and I could not get the fish.
12,071. Was that the reason why you gave up the fish-buying
originally?-No, that was not the reason. I had some small
vessels, and they were unsuccessful, and I just dropped out from
the business.
12,072. But you think that the buying of the fish from the
fishermen might be more remunerative lately than it was
before?-I could not say about that; but the fishermen had the
liberty to cure their own fish if they had liked, and then they
sold them dry.
12,073. Was it dry fish that you proposed to purchase?-Yes. It
was dry fish that I made the offer to buy, but we would not get
them even if we had given the same price as Garriock & Co., or
more.
12,074. How long is it since you offered to buy the dry fish?-
Perhaps 4 or 5 years ago.
12,075. In what way did you make your intention known: did you
offer to certain fishermen at that time [Page 297] to take their
fish?-Yes. I have sometimes offered them to buy their fish, but I
never could get them to sell them to me.
12,075. [sic] Do you remember any particular men to whom you
made that offer?-I could not mention any particular man; but I
have offered to several crews to buy their fish, and they would not
sell them.
12,076. Do you remember what skippers you offered to?-If it is
necessary to give names, I would rather do so in private. [Hands in
the name of one skipper and crew.]
12,077. Do you remember any others?-I might mention several,
but I don't think it is necessary.
12,078. What answers did they give to your offer?-I sometimes
offered the currency, or above the currency, but that did not
matter: I could not get their fish.
12,079. Did they decline to entertain your offer?-Yes.
12,080. What did they say was their reason?-They considered
themselves as a sort of tied down to sell to one; but I know they
were not tied down, and that they could have sold their fish to any
one they chose.
12,081. But they did say to you that they were tied down?-They
did.
12,082. Was it through a fear of disobliging the factor that they
refused to sell their fish?-I suppose so. Perhaps they thought that
if they required a favour again, they might not get it so easily if
they made a change.
12,083. If the favour they expected was in the way of an advance,
would they not have got that from you?-Yes, at any time, either
in money or in goods.
12,084. What other favour could they expect from the factor?-
From the fact of Messrs. Garriock & Co. being factors, they had
more power than I had with regard to the men.
12,085. Did the men express any fear of being turned out of their
holdings?-They did not.
12,086. But that may have been in their minds?-Perhaps it might.
12,087. Did you ever hear of any influence being used by Garriock
& Co. to secure the fish of these men or of other men?-I cannot
say that they used any undue influence; but, of course, it was an
understood thing that they had the first chance, and the only
chance of them. Where Messrs. Garriock cure the fish, of course
they have the fish to themselves; but where they do not cure them,
it is considered that they shall have the first chance of buying the
fish.
12,088. Where they cure, of course, there is an engagement with
the men at the beginning of the season?-No. That was the case
about 30 years ago but it is not so now.
12,089. But in the ling fishing the crews are all engaged in the
beginning of the season?-Yes; but there is no price fixed at the
beginning of the season. About 30 years ago that was the case and
there was some more competition.
12,090. Was it the case 30 years ago that the price was fixed at
the beginning of the season?-Yes, there was a price fixed, and
sometimes agreements were written on paper for the ling fishing,
but that practice fell away. Sometimes the fishermen got above
the real value of the fish under that system.
12,091. Do you know whether that system existed only in your part
of the island?-No, it existed all over Shetland more or less unless
where the factors had control over the fishermen. At that time
every man who had his freedom could sell his fish to the best
bidder.
12,092. But he can do so still, only the price is now fixed
according to the current rate at the end of the season?-He
cannot do so exactly in every place in Shetland. The price is
not understood to be known until the fish are sold, which, I think,
makes the fishermen scarcely so persevering in fishing as they
were when they did know the price. I think when the price was
fixed at the beginning of the season, they persevered even more
than they do now.
12,093. Was that system given up before you ceased to be in the
business?-No, it continued after that. The thing which made the
price to be fixed at the beginning was, that other buyers than the
native buyers came into the market, and there was more
competition.
12,094. Was there much more competition at that time than there
is now?-In buying fish green there was more competition, but
now the competition is very little.
12,095. How do you account for that?-Where factors have the
power, it is understood that the men must fish either to the factor
or the proprietor.
12,096. Do you think the factors have more power now than they
had in those times?-I rather think they have in some cases.
12,097. In those times was it not the rule that the fishermen were
always bound to deliver the fish to the proprietor, or to some one
appointed by him?-It was.
12,098. So that, in that case, there could not be competition?-
There were several people who had the chance of buying the fish
at that time; but, of course, they could not get their summer fish.
They might get fish during the spring season in small quantities,
but that was all.
12,099. I thought you were speaking with reference to the summer
fishing, when you said that in those times there was a great deal of
competition, and that the price was fixed at the beginning of the
season?-Yes; that was the case about thirty years ago but within
the last twenty years it has fallen away.
12,100. But even at the time you speak of, were not the fishermen
very frequently bound to deliver their fish to the proprietors or
their factors, or tacksmen?-They were bound in some places, but
not so much in our part of the country as elsewhere.
12,101. The men were not so much bound in the district that
you speak of when the price was fixed at the beginning of the
season?-The price was fixed in many cases, but not in all.
12,102. Then the fish in those times were bought from the
fishermen green?-Yes.
12,103. And it was the price for green fish that was so fixed?-
Yes. The proprietor never fixed the price. It would only be fixed
by a buyer or it merchant.
12,104. Do you think it would be advantageous to return to that
practice of fixing the price at the beginning of the season for green
fish?-Where fish are bought green, I think it would.
12,105. Would it not be better for all parties if the fish were
always bought green, and cured by a professional curer?-I don't
think it would. There are some of the fishermen who can cure the
fish as well as any professional curer.
12,106. Are the fishermen in your neighbourhood generally
supplied with vats and other implements for curing fish?-Most
of them who cure for themselves have implements of their own.
They only require their supplies, such as lines, and salt, and food
from the merchant.
12,107. I suppose these independent fishermen who cure their own
fish, frequently take their lines and salt and materials for curing
from you?-They get them anywhere they choose. They have
much more liberty in that way in our parish than, I think, they have
in any part of Shetland.
12,108. Would you say that curing by the men themselves is
practised to it greater extent in your parish than anywhere else in
Shetland?-Much more. Since the men began to cure their own
fish they have got on well, and they have got much out of debt,
and become more independent.
12,109. When did they begin to cure their fish?-It is about fifteen
or sixteen years since it came to be practised to any extent; but
there are it good many of them who do not cure their own fish yet.
I should say there are about one half of them who sell their fish
green.
12,110. Do those who sell their fish green engage at the beginning
of the season with Garriock & Co.?-They sell their fish to them.
They do not have any price stated at the beginning, but are settled
with according to the current price at the end of the season.
12,111. Do you find that the men who are so engaged to sell their
fish according to the current price at the end of the season, are less
frequent customers at your [Page 298] shop than those who cure
their own fish?-Yes; that must be a consequence.
12,112. Why?-Because it is understood that their supplies must
come from the place where their goods are going. They are a sort
of bound; they are not independent; but if they were curing for
themselves, then they would have their freedom to go anywhere
they chose.
12,113. Do you mean that the men who are paid according to the
current price at the end of the season want to get their supplies on
credit?-Of course they must get their supplies on credit at the
place where they are giving the proceeds of their work.
12,114. Is there any other reason why they deal with the fish-curer
for their supplies? Does a man who has money in his hand go to
the fish-curer by preference for his supplies, as well as a man who
has not?-Some men would go there even although they had the
money, and get an advance on credit.
12,115. Do the men think it an advantage to get their supplies on
credit?-Some men do, even although they paid a higher price for
them.
12,116. And they might at the same time have money in the
bank?-Yes.
12,117. Do you think that is a common notion among the men?-
No, I don't think it is a common notion.
12,118. Are the men who act in that way men to whom you would
yourself give credit?-Yes. I have sometimes given them credit
for their supplies, such as salt and lines, and anything they wanted.
12,119. Would you consider yourself safe in giving them credit,
even if they were engaged to deliver their green fish to Messrs.
Garriock & Co.?-No. I would not like to deal with the men who
sell their green fish, because I would run the risk of not getting my
money from them.
12,120. But you say the men will take advances from the curer
during the summer, even although they are quite able to pay for
what they are getting?-Some men will do so from their natural
disposition; but, as a rule, if the skipper goes to a certain place for
his supplies, it is considered that his men must go there too.
12,121. How is that?-The skipper, of course, has some control
over his crew on shore as well as at sea.
12,122. Do you think the skipper sometimes advises or persuades
his men to go to a particular shop?-He might; I cannot say that he
would not, but that is not known to me.
12,123. Do you suppose there is any understanding that it is part of
the skipper's duty to guide his men to the right shop?-I don't
think the skipper is tempted in any way to do that. I don't know
that he derives any benefit from it. There may be a premium given
to a skipper for being the best fisher; but I don't think the skippers
are tampered with to control their crews as to the shops where they
are to deal.
12,124. Who has the appointment of the skipper?-The crew may
choose a man for themselves.
12,125. Have you noticed, as a rule, that the skippers deal at the
fish merchant's shop more commonly than the men?-No. I think
there is no difference in that way, so far as I have seen.
12,126. Then the only reason you can suggest for men who sell
their green fish dealing at the shop of the curer, is because there is
a sort of understanding among them that they shall take their
supplies there?-Yes. In fact, they would not get them anywhere
else because they could not get the money to pay for them. The
man who buys the fish has the first chance of the men's money;
while we who don't buy the fish have only a second or a third
chance of being paid. We would not care to supply men in that
way, because we don't consider ourselves safe.
12,127. But in giving supplies to the men who cure their own fish,
you think you have some security?-Certainly.
12,128. What is that security?-The men are more independent,
and if they sell their fish south, they are sure to get their money at
the time.
12,129. But you told me that these men are under some kind of
obligation to sell their fish to Garriock & Co.?-There is some
understanding of that kind, but they are not bound.
12,130. They always give them the preference?-Yes.
12,131. And you have been unable to buy their fish from them?-
Yes. Even if I were to offer a somewhat higher price, I know that I
would not get them.
12,132. If that is the state of matters with them, then you have not
much more security for your advances in their case than in the case
of the other men?-I have security. There is no fear for them.
12,133. May they not be taking supplies all the season from the
merchant's shop?-We have a good chance of knowing where
they get their supplies; and men like that, who are independent, are
not likely to run away with the money when they get paid for their
fish. They are safe enough to pay their accounts.
12,134. Then your reliance is very much on the character of the
men themselves?-Certainly.
12,135. Do you find that the men who cure their own fish are of a
more reliable character, and more to be depended upon, than the
others?-Generally they are, and they are more persevering.
12,136. I suppose Messrs. Garriock & Co. know pretty well what
men deal at your shop, and what men deal at their own?-I think
they do.
12,137. Have you ever obtained from them, or through them,
payment of any accounts that have been run up by men at your
shop?-No. I would not like to apply to them for that. I think
they would rather pay the money to the men themselves.
12,138. Do the men who deal with you upon accounts generally
keep pass-books?-Some of them do.
12,139. Do you find any irregularity or difficulty in settling their
accounts, in consequence of the want of pass-books?-I find
none; but, of course, if a man understands accounts, and keeps a
pass-book, I find it more agreeable to settle with him. The more
ignorant a man is, the more trouble you have in settling with him.
12,140. Are there any other buyers of dried fish in that district than
Garriock & Co.?-There is no other person who buys them in
large quantities.
12,141. There may be small buyers, but I suppose they don't have
much chance in the circumstances you have already described?-
No; they don't have a chance.
12,142. How do these small buyers get any fish all?-There are
very few who buy dried fish, and who have the chance of getting
much. They might get few tons in some years, but not as a regular
thing.
12,143. Is there any public-house in the parish of Walls?-No.
12,144. Or any one who has a grocer's licence?-No, there has not
been one for some years.
12,145. You don't hold a grocer's licence for the sale of spirits?-
No.
12,146. Where do people in that parish get their supplies of
liquor?-There are two licensed houses in the next parish of
Sandsting-one at Tresta, and one the Bridge of Walls, on the
Sandsting side.
12,147. Have the people to go there for all their supplies of that
kind?-Yes.
12,148. I believe they are a very temperate people?-I think they
are.
12,149. Have you ever been asked to purchase second-hand goods
in small quantities by your neighbours, by people coming from a
distance?-No.
12,150. Have you not been asked to buy small packet of tea across
the counter?-Never.
12,151. Do you know whether the people in your district
sometimes get their supplies of tea from those who have got
the tea in exchange for hosiery in Lerwick?-No; there is no
practice of that kind among us.
12,152. If it happens, it will be an exceptional thing so far as you
know?-I never knew any case of the kind.
12,153. When you were engaged in the fish business yourself,
were you ever asked to advance the rent of any fisherman from
whom you had bought fish?-I might sometimes advance money
to a fisherman to help [Page 299] him to pay his rent, but I cannot
say that I was ever pressed either by a factor or a landlord on that
point.
12,154. When you gave that advance, it was given directly to the
fisherman?-Yes, and voluntarily.
12,155. Do you ever make money advances now for that purpose,
or for any other purpose, to your customers who have accounts
with you?-I have not done so within the last two or three years;
in fact, most of the men don't need it; they can get on without it.
12,156. The accounts incurred to you, and which are settled for at
the end of the year, are paid in cash, I suppose, for the most
part?-Yes, in cash.
12,157. The only things you get in part payment, and which are
entered on the other side of the account, are eggs and sometimes
butter?-There is not much butter. The greater part of my trade is
done in cash.
12,158. But eggs and hosiery may sometimes be entered in the
account?-Not much hosiery. I don't do much in that way.
12,159. You said it might amount to £50, but the transactions, I
suppose, are settled at the time?-Yes. In some years I do not do
the half of that, but would cover my transactions in that way in any
year. I remember some years ago buying three or four times as
much, but now the knitters all go to Lerwick with their work.
12,160. What hosiery you do buy is all settled for at the time?-
Yes, it is paid right off there and then. The articles are offered to
us, and if we are satisfied with the quality and the price we take
them, the same as in any other money transaction.
12,161. Do the accounts which you settle at November or
December generally amount to some pounds apiece?-Yes;
with those fishermen to whom we have advanced.
12,162. Are these accounts generally paid in cash which the men
have got from Messrs. Garriock & Co. for the sale of their fish to
them?-Yes.
12,163. I suppose you take good care to bring as many of your
accounts as possible to settlement immediately after the settling
time with Garriock & Co.?-Yes; that is our usual practice.
Lerwick, January 24, 1872, JOHN TWATT, examined.
12,164. You are a merchant at Voe, in the parish of Walls?-I am.
12,165. How far is that from Bayhall?-About five minutes' walk.
12,166. Have you heard the evidence of Mr. Georgeson?-I have.
12,167. Is your business much of the same description as his?-
It is exactly the same. There is no difference between them
whatever.
12,168. It is conducted with the same class of customers?-
Exactly.
12,169. Are your settlements made at the same season?-Yes.
12,170. Have you ever been in the fish-curing business yourself?-
Yes. For the last two years I have done little in the winter season.
I get no fish in summer.
12,171. Do you buy the fish green?-Yes; in winter.
12,172. Are you ready to buy them cured if you could get them?-
Yes. I have often offered for fish, but I never could get them. I
have made the offer publicly to all the boats.
12,173. In what way did you intimate that offer publicly?-I just
said to the men that I would buy their fish, and give as high a price
for them as another. I have said that if I did not give them 10s.
more, I would not give them 10s. less; but I could not get them.
12,174. What did they say?-They said nothing, but they never
gave me the fish.
12,175. Did you mean by the offer you made to them that you
would give them a price fixed at the beginning of the season?-
No; I could not fix a price then. I meant that I would give them
as much as any other fish-buyer who was in the trade.
12,176. Did you mean that you would give them that price at the
end of the season when they delivered their cured fish?-yes.
12,177. Did you make a special offer to any particular crews?-I
have said to some of the men to tell their skippers what I had
offered. The skipper was not in at the time, but I told one of the
men that I would give him 10s. more than any other one if he
would give me his fish.
12,178. Have you reason to believe that the man carried your
message to the skipper?-Yes; I know he did carry it.
12,179. Did you get any answer to it?-No.
12,180. Then how did you know that the man had carried your
message to the skipper?-Because I asked the skipper afterwards
about it; and he said he had been engaged at the beginning of the
season to deliver his fish to another party.
12,181. Were these fish to be cured by himself?-Yes.
12,182. Are contracts made so early as that with men who cure
their own fish?-In some cases they are.
12,183. Was the other party in this case Messrs. Garriock &
Co.?-I don't think it was. I would rather mention the name
privately. [Hands in the name of a fish-curing firm.]
12,184. Are these gentlemen you have named extensive purchasers
of cured fish in your district?-I believe they would buy all they
could get.
12,185. Perhaps they have the same difficulty which you
experience in buying fish?-I suppose they have.
12,186. Do you carry on any business with men who are engaged
to fish in the ling fishing for Messrs. Garriock & Co.?-Yes. I
supply the crews with what they require for the fishing, such as
lines, and hooks, and tar.
12,187. Are they not expected to take their supplies from the shop
of the merchant with whom they engage?-Sometimes it is much
handier for them to get them from me than to go to Reawick for
them; and when I know the crew will pay me, I supply them to
them.
12,188. Your shop is at a great distance from Reawick, or any of
the larger fishing stations?-Yes.
12,189. Do you make these supplies to the men to a large
extent?-No, not to a large extent; only to a few boats. It is
only to the crews that I make these supplies, because the
company accounts are paid first at the time of settlement, and
I look to the skipper to see that I am paid.
12,190. Then a company account of that kind is a safer thing than
an account with one of the men?-Yes.
12,191. Do the fishermen themselves, as individuals, get supplies
from you on credit while they are engaged in the ling fishing?-
Yes.
12,192. Do they not go more frequently to Reawick, or to Messrs.
Garriock & Co.'s other stores, for supplies?-Yes. There are
certain parties that I won't give them to.
12,193. Do you furnish the principal part of the supplies to those
men in your neighbourhood who fish for Garriock & Co.?-No.
Garriock & Co. do that themselves. It is only when they cannot
get over to Garriock a Co.'s stores, or when Garriock & Co. might
be out of any article they want, or something like that, that they
come to me. They only come to me for what they want when they
cannot do better.
12,194. Is it the case that some of them come to you for supplies
because Reawick is so far away?-Sometimes that is the case in
the busy season. When the fishing is going on they are glad to go
to the nearest place, and get a few lines or hooks, or what they
want but when they do go to Reawick they take as much from
there as possible.
12,195. Are they expected to do so?-I rather think they are.
12,196. Do you understand that from the men themselves, or is it
merely your own inference from the way in which they act?-It is
my own opinion.
[Page 300]
12,197. Have you heard anything from the men which has
confirmed that opinion?-No, I could not say that I have.
12,198. Do you find that the connection of the fishermen with a
large company of that kind, which buys their fish, and which acts
as factor upon the estates where the fishermen live, interferes with
the extension of your own business?-I cannot say that it does.
12,199. Have you not told me already that you have not been able
to buy fish from the men, although you wanted to do so?-Yes; it
interferes with me in that way, so that I cannot get the fish.
12,200. But you don't suppose the men would deal at your shop, in
preference to the shop of the merchant who employs them, even
although they could do so?-If they were fishing to me, I believe
they would deal with me the same as with any other one. I cannot
quite agree with what Mr. Georgeson said about that. I think there
is a little bribe which the skippers get for seeing that the men go to
the shop. I think it is an understood thing between the skipper and
the fishbuyer, that he (the skipper) is to get something extra.
12,201. Does not the skipper usually get a fee?-No; he is
generally supposed to get the same as the men, but I rather
think he gets a little more.
12,202. You say that that serves as a bribe: for what purpose?-I
leave that to you.
12,203. Do you suppose it has the effect of making him influence
the men to take their supplies from the merchant's shop?-I leave
that to you to judge.
12,204. Do you suppose that the skipper, in general, does guide his
men in that direction?-I rather think he does in some cases.
12,205. Have you known any special instance that you could point
to, where that was done?-There was one boat's crew with whom
I was settling for a small company account. I asked them why they
did not give me their fish as we were next-door neighbours, or
something like that; and the men all got up against the skipper, and
said they were quite willing to give me their fish, only that the
skipper had gone away and made an agreement for them before.
12,206. That was for the sale of their fish?-Yes, for the sale of
the dry fish. I would have bought them at the same price as
Garriock & Co, or any other one.
12,207. But that was not a case in which the men were induced to
go for supplies to the fish-curer?-They did not require to go there
for their supplies unless they had liked, because they could have
got their supplies from me if they had said they would give me
their fish at the end of the season. If they had done that I was
willing to supply them with money, or meal, or anything they
wanted.
12,208. These were men who were curing their own fish?-Yes.
12,209. But have you known any cases in which men who were
engaged to fish during the whole season, and to deliver their fish
green to Garriock & Co., were induced by the skipper to go to
Reawick for their supplies?-I cannot say that I have.
12,210. Is it not the fact that men who live near you do go to
Reawick for supplies although it is much farther away?-Yes.
12,211. And although it is inconvenient?-Yes, it is inconvenient.
They could do much better by coming to my shop, which is next
door to them, and they could get as good articles at the same price
as they can at Reawick.
12,212. How far is it from your place to Reawick?-I think it is
about 10 or 12 miles.
12,213. When the men go there for meal or other supplies, are
these supplies brought across the country?-Sometimes they are
brought by boats and sometimes round by the rocks.
12,214. When a crew cure their own fish, is it the rule that the sale
must be of the whole catch of the boat, or can each man sell his
fish separately?-No, they must all be sold together; and they
generally go to the place where the skipper or the majority of the
men want them to go.
12,215. Do you think the skipper has a considerable influence in
that matter?-I think he has.
12,216. Of course, where the men are fishing independently, and
curing their own fish, there is no arrangement with the merchant
for the skipper's fee?-No; that is an understood thing between
the skipper and the fish-buyer, and I don't think the men know
anything at all about it. There is no fee at the ling fishing, and the
men can go to whom they please. They are different there from
what they are in the Faroe fishing.
12,217. Do you buy any hosiery?-I buy it little, and I pay for it in
the same way which Mr. Georgeson explained. It is all done by
barter.
12,218. Do you also pay for eggs and butter by goods?-Yes.
Lerwick, January 24, 1872, JOHN JOHNSTON, examined.
12,219. You are a merchant at Bridge of Walls, in Sandsting?-I
am.
12,220. You are a son of Mr. George Johnston, merchant at
Tresta?-Yes.
12,221. Is that in the same parish, but at some distance from your
place?-Yes; I think it is about eight miles away.
12,222. Your father is in delicate health, and has not been able to
come to-day?-Yes. He has not been able to come in consequence
of the rough day.
12,223. Were you concerned in his business before you set up
business on your own account?-Yes.
12,224. You are acquainted with his business at Tresta as well as
with your own?-Yes.
12,225. Have you heard the evidence which has been given by Mr.
Georgeson to-day?-Yes.
12,226. Is your business and that of your father similar in character
to Mr. Georgeson's?-Yes, it is just the same only we have a spirit
licence in addition. My father has a public-house licence, and I
have a grocer's licence.
12,227. Then you supply what spirits may be wanted in the
parishes of Walls and Sandsting?-Yes. I suppose we supply
the principal part of them; but the people may go to Lerwick or
any other place for them if they choose.
12,228. Your dealings in that way, I suppose, are always settled for
in cash?-Yes, always in cash.
12,229. Is the bulk of your other transactions paid for in cash
too?-No; there is a good deal of credit given.
12,230. To what class of customers do you give credit?-To the
fishermen.
12,231. Have you any fishermen who are employed in your own
boats?-We have no boats fishing to us.
12,232. Do you buy cured fish or green fish from the fishermen?-
No, we don't buy any. My father has one vessel of his own that
goes to the Faroe fishing. He had three about five or six years ago.
12,233. Where do you get the men for these Faroe vessels?-They
are very much scattered. Sometimes, we get part from Walls, and
sometimes part from Sandsting.
12,234. Do these men take supplies for themselves and their
families during the summer from your father's shops?-Yes.
12,235. And they have an account which is settled at the end of the
fishing season?-Yes.
12,236. Do you buy no fish at all?-No. My father has an interest
in two boats that fish on the home banks off Shetland. That is the
cod fishing; they don't go to the Faroe fishing. They are smacks,
but they are small.
12,237. That bank is between Shetland and Orkney?-Yes.
12,238. Exclusive of the men who are engaged in the Faroe
fishing, have you or your father many accounts with fishermen
living in the district?-Not very [Page 301] many. We have some,
but they are principally with men who go south, and we supply
their families during the time they are away. They go principally
to Liverpool, and sometimes to Greenock, and enter the merchant
service. They remain away for a year or two, and then come home
for a winter.
12,239. Do these men send allotment notes home to their wives?-
Not often. They generally remit money home at the end of the
voyage.
12,240. Then you have no security at all for your advances, except
the personal credit of the men?-None at all.
12,241. There may be some stock on their farms occasionally?-
Of course they have a little.
12,242. Have you any accounts with fishermen on the ling fishing
at home?-Not many. There is no ling fishing carried on close to
where I live.
12,243. But a few of your neighbours are engaged in it?-No. I
think there are none of them engaged in it.
12,244. Is it the same with your father's place?-Yes; there is no
ling fishing there at all.
12,245. Have you any accounts with fishermen engaged in the
Faroe fishing for other merchants than yourselves?-We have
some, but not many.
12,246. I suppose these Faroe men generally open accounts with
the merchants in whose smacks they are engaged?-Yes,
generally.
12,247. Have you anything to say in addition to what was stated by
Mr. Georgeson and Mr. Twatt in their evidence?-The only thing I
would like to say is, that I think all the men have complete liberty
to engage anywhere they choose, or to go to the fishing or south as
they like. I don't think any compulsion is used.
12,248. I don't think any of the previous witnesses said there
was any compulsion in that way. Have you ever endeavoured to
purchase cured fish?-No.
12,249. Why? Did you never think of it?-No.
12,250. Was that because you considered you would have no
chance of getting the fish to buy?-I could hardly say that; but I
never thought much about it.
Lerwick, January 24, 1872, ARCHIBALD ABERNETHY, examined.
12,251. Are you a shopkeeper at Whiteness, in the parish of
Tingwall?-I am.
12,252. In what goods do you deal?-Principally in eggs and
butter.
12,253. Do you deal in groceries and a little in soft goods?-Yes.
12,254. Do you pay for eggs and butter generally in goods?-Yes,
generally; but I very often pay money for eggs too.
12,255. Do you make a difference on the price, according as they
are paid for in money or in goods?-Yes; there is a difference of
1/2d. per dozen, as a general rule.
12,256. Have you ever bought fish?-Yes, a little.
12,257. Do you buy them dry or green?-I buy them green, and
cure them myself.
12,258. Do you own any boats?-No. Occasionally I may hire a
boat and a crew for a month or two about this season of the year
for the spring fishing, before they go to Faroe.
12,259. Do you fix the price of your fish at the time they are
delivered, or do you settle with the men for them according to the
price at the end of the season?-They will scarcely agree to fix a
price at the time they are delivered, in case the price of fish may
rise during the year, and then they expect to get a better price for
them. They prefer to wait until the fish go to the market, and then
they know what the price is.
12,260. Is that what is done when you buy the fish green?-Yes.
12,261. In that case, you settle with them according to the current
price at the end of the year?-Yes. I generally guarantee to give
them that price.
12,262. I thought you said you had only one boat for a short time
at this season?-I sometimes have one or two boats for a short
time at this season, and that is generally the agreement I make with
them.
12,263. Don't you buy the fish promiscuously, as it were, from any
man who comes and offers them to you?-Yes.
12,264. Do you do that only in the winter and spring, or also in
the summer?-It is only in the winter and spring that I have the
chance of doing it. There are scarcely any fish got in our quarter
in the summer time, because the fishermen are generally engaged
in the Faroe fishing then.
12,265. Are none of them engaged in the ling fishing?-None at
all.
12,266. Do you keep accounts for supplies that you make to
fishermen?-Yes, a few.
12,267. Are these men engaged in the Faroe or the ling fishing?-
Principally in the Faroe fishing.
12,268. Do any of these men get their whole supplies from you?-
None of them. I think they are generally supplied from the shops
of the owners of the vessels they are in.
12,269. Do they get the most of their supplies from there?-I think
so.
12,270. Do these men live near your shop, or are they living at a
distance from you?-They live pretty near me. Some of them are
near neighbours, and others live about three or four miles away.
12,271. How many men of that kind may there be who deal
occasionally with you, but who get the bulk of their supplies from
the parties for whom they are fishing?-I should fancy there may
be about forty or fifty of them.
12,272. Have most of these men got accounts?-Generally they
have, but not to a great extent; perhaps for a few shillings.
12,273. You understand they are supplied chiefly by the merchant
for whom they ship?-Yes, generally.
12,274. Would it not be more convenient for them to get their
supplies nearer their own homes?-I don't know that it would
make much difference. It is not very far from our place to
Lerwick. I think it is only about eight or nine miles, and the
people generally are in the town every now and again with
hosiery and things of that kind.
12,275. Who are the merchants with whom most of the men
engage for the Faroe fishing?-I think the principal parties are
Mr. Leask, and Messrs. Hay & and Messrs. Harrison & Sons.
12,276. Do the people generally carry home their meal and
provisions from Lerwick when they buy meal there?-A good
deal of it comes in that way; but it is a very common thing, when
the men are going to Faroe, for them to bring the smack round to
Whiteness and leave a boll or two of meal at their houses there
before they go away.
12,277. What prices do you pay for the fish caught in spring and
winter?-From 6s. 6d. to 7s. We are paying 7s. just now for cod.
There are very few ling caught.
12,278 What is the price for the small fish?-It is 4s. 6d. for the
smallest and then there are different prices from that upwards until
we come to the big size.
12,279. What quantity of fish will you get in that way from a
boat's crew in the course of a winter and spring?-I really don't
know. I don't get them all. They may come to me with a few
cwts. perhaps, and perhaps go to Scalloway or anywhere else with
the rest. They are quite at liberty during the winter, so far as I
know, to go anywhere they like where they can get the best price.
When they come to me they generally take what goods they want,
and if there is a balance over they usually get it in cash.
12,280. When they come with fish in that way, I suppose you
generally ask them what they want after fixing the price?-They
know the price before they come with them, and they generally
want some things out of the shop. If they do not, then they get the
cash.
[Page 302]
12,281. Do you weigh the fish?-Yes, we weigh them in presence
of the men.
12,282. Is not the first thing you do after that to see what goods
the people want?-Very seldom. I just ask them if they are
wanting any goods, and then they buy them; but they sometimes
take the whole price in money, and sometimes they settle previous
accounts with fish which they bring in that way. In winter that is
generally the way in which they settle their accounts with me.
12,283. Are the accounts which the men run up in summer
generally settled by the sale of their winter fish?-Yes; that is
the way in which the thing is done in our quarter.
12,284. How many tons of dry fish would you be able to sell from
that kind of trade?-Perhaps three or four tons, or the like of that.
It is not carried on to any great extent.
12,285. Do you sell these fish at what is called the current
price?-No; I just take my chance. I get them dried perhaps
in April or May, and send them south.
12,286. Can you sell them earlier than the large fish sales of the
year?-Yes. The spring fish are all dry by April or May.
12,287. Is the price of cured fish generally higher early in the
season than it is in September, when the large sales take place?-I
don't know; the price is very fluctuating.
12,288. Are you aware that the current price this year for ling was
£23 per ton?-Yes; but I am not aware of that price having been
paid for any of the small fish such as I am speaking of.
12,289. What did you manage to sell your fish for last year?-I
sent them principally to Leith, and I got about £16 per ton for them
on an average, after deducting expenses. I do not know the price
at which the fish were actually sold, but that is what I realized. I
sent them to an agent in Leith, and that was my return.
12,290. Do you suppose that any of the men that you bought fish
from would get as much as £5 from you in the course of the winter
and spring for their fish?-I don't think they would.
12,291. Might one crew get as much as that?-Yes, more than
that; or if they were going to the spring fishing also, they would
get perhaps £4 or £5 each man for the big cod. I paid more than
that per man last year, when they had been both at the winter and
spring fishing.
12,292. I suppose most of that would be settled for by the men
taking the goods?-No; I think three-fourths of it would be settled
for in cash. That would not be so in every case; but in some cases
more than three-fourths would be paid in cash.
Lerwick, January 24, 1872, LEWIS F.U. GARRIOCK, examined.
12,293. You are a partner of the firm of Garriock & Co., general
merchants and fish-curers at Reawick?-I am.
12,294. You have prepared a statement which you wish to appear
as part of your evidence?-Yes.
12,295. Is that statement correct?-It is, to the best of my
knowledge.
[The witness then handed in the following statement:-]
'I am a partner of the firm of Garriock & Co. general
merchants and fish-curers at Reawick.
'Mr. Umphray, the senior of the firm, and myself, are
proprietors of land. Mr. Umphray, my younger brother,
and I, are joint factors on the estate of Dr. Scott of Melby.
'I am trustee for the proprietors of the Burra Isles.
'Our general store for all sorts of goods is at Reawick. We have,
besides, two small shops or general stores, one in the Island
of Foula where there are about forty families, and the other at
Sandness, where there are about seventy-five families.
'We engage our fishermen and servants from the district of
country comprising the parishes of Weisdale, Aithsting, Sandsting,
Walls, Sandness, and Foula, with a few from districts beyond
Tingwall, Burra, etc.
'We cured last season the fish from ten smacks fishing at
Faroe, Iceland, etc., and five smaller vessels prosecuting the
fishing in the neighbourhood of our own and the Orkney Islands.
There are other owners interested in some of these vessels, but we
engaged the crews on shares; and at the end of the season, when
the value of the fish was realized, we accounted with owners and
men for their proportions. The gross
value will be about . . . £4600 0 0
The cost of bait,
salt-curing, etc., . . £650 0 0
The cost of biscuit, coals
on owners' account, 250 0 0
Proportion paid crew
individually, . . 2200 0 0
Proportion paid owners, 1500 0 0
£4600 0 0
'The fishermen's proportion is paid to each of them in cash,
under deduction of any provisions and articles of clothing for
themselves, and provisions, etc., supplied to their families during
the season, so far as they have supplied themselves from us; but
they are under no obligation to take such advance from us and can,
if they choose buy their articles from any shopkeeper, either for
cash (which many of them have spare) or on credit. A few of the
men can do without advances, having spare money; but the fishing
could not be carried on if we were not to supply them, especially
as regards the lads in their first and second year.
'In years when the fishing is not remunerative merchants
making those advances lose heavily in bad debts.
'I have gone carefully over the accounts with the crews of two
smacks, and produce an abstract of the men's accounts, which
shows that, as respects one of them in 1870, we accounted to them
for £427,19s. 2d., of which they had from us for lines, hooks, and
provisions on board, £71, 7s. 9d.; clothing, and supplies of meal,
etc., to their families, £114, 14s. 5d.; and in cash, £239, 17s. The
other crew, in 1870, had, in lines, hooks, and provisions, £81, 7s.
11d.; goods, £129, 0s. 8d.; and in cash, £374, 13s. 6d. The same
crew, in 1871, in lines, provisions, etc., £63, 3s. 4d.; goods, £67,
7s.; cash, £198, 9s. 7d. Looking at the last two years as regards
our fishermen in smacks, it appears they have had considerably
more than half their gross shares paid them in cash.
'We would, as merchants, greatly prefer a cash system, payment
being made upon the fish being delivered, the same as we do to
English smacks fishing for us at it contract price-and we derive
about one-third of our cure from this source. But I believe were
such a mode attempted it would lead to fixed wages, and would
end in loss to both men and owners, and a great falling off
in this branch of the fishery.
'BOATS.-About one-fourth of our cure last year was from open
boats-six-oared boats at far haaf, and four-oared boats at home
haaf. About 63 tons of these are from crews who cure their own
fish, and deliver at one time, at the end of the curing season. The
remaining 71 tons are delivered fresh every day, as landed at
our stations. Those who cure their own fish, whether they have
advances of salt, meal, etc., from us or not, are at perfect liberty to
treat with and sell to any merchant they can get the best price from
when their fish are ready. Their boats and gear are all their own.
The understanding about those delivered fresh is, that we pay not
less than the current rate of the country. These men, as well as the
others, own their boats and gear. The peculiarities of their
situation make this mode of delivering in a fresh state a necessity.
At two of the stations we receive from in that way; and we prefer
it, although the fish should [Page 303] cost us higher than those
cured by the men themselves, as we can make a much better
article, having skilled men and better appliances. To show that
our boat fishers do see more than a pound at settlement, I take the
liberty to hand you herewith an abstract of my settlement last and
previous month with the men at two stations in Walls, by which it
appears that 36 men employed at far haaf, and 34 men at home
haaf, had value in fish, £829, 19s. 1d. Our supplies in boats, lines,
salt, meal, and other goods, was £29, 0s. 81/2d.; and I paid them in
cash £600, 18s. 41/2d. I have not access to some of the station
books; but, from an abstract of my last year's settlement at one of
these stations, there was placed to credit of the men for fish, work,
curing, etc., £655, 0s. 6d., which was thus disposed of:
'1st. To account of arrears of advances
of meal, etc., from previous years, £71 12 7
'2d. Fishing material, meal, goods, and
cash from storekeeper during year, 270 7 2
'3d. Cash at settlement, 313 0 9
'It is not always so; this same island for three years, 1867-69,
suffered severely from the crops being blasted, and the fishing of
1868 proving a failure (each fisherman's earnings for the whole
year only amounting to about £3). We supplied them with meal
during these years, at the end of which they were due us £228, 19s.
9d., besides some arrears of rent to Dr. Scott. All this is now
cleared off, unless some three or four individuals; and the more
provident have a good few pounds saved.
'In settling with our men, the whole crew, both as respects smacks
and boats, are brought in together, and the statement of the
division is gone over carefully. Afterwards each man comes
separately, and every item of his account read over, or if a
pass-book is kept (which is very common) it is made up. Copies
of the account are given in every case when desired. I think our
men are perfectly satisfied with the present system.
'The tenants on the Melby estate are perfectly free to earn their
living as they choose; and it is the same as regards Mr. Umphray's
tenants (who number 75) and my own. On going over the roll of
Mr. Umphray's tenants, I observe there are only 17 fishing to my
firm (some of them only part of the season), and of my tenants
only 4.
'It is the exception, not the rule, for our fishermen to be in debt
to us. Of the 70 men representing the sixteen crews of which I
have given particulars, all had money to get, with the exception of
six, who are due us balances to the amount of £33, 2s.
'We employed last year 40 beach boys, from 13 to 17 years of
age. All had cash to get at settlement, and none are in advance
on the coming season.
'HOSIERY.-We take hosiery in barter for any sort of goods
required, including meal and provisions. We have found this
branch of trade uniformly a losing one but it is convenient for our
customers-families who occupy their spare time from farm work
in knitting plain articles-to get such exchanged; and it would put
them much about if we were to give it up, being so far from
Lerwick, and the neighbouring country shops only taking such
things as they have an outlet for. A good many of the girls go to
town, perhaps once in the year, with their hosiery.
'EGGS.-We take in eggs in the same way, but pay cash readily
when asked.
'We have only one price in our stores for goods, whether sold
for cash or barter.
'My firm has no separate account for the wife, and with other
members of the family, unless when such are working or fishing
for themselves.'
12,296. You say in your statement that Mr. Umphray and yourself
are proprietors of land: is that in the district in which your business
is carried on?-Mr. Umphray is a proprietor of land there. His
rental is somewhere between £300 and £400, and the number of
his tenants is between 70 and 80.
12,297. What is the rental and the number of tenants on the Melby
estate?-The rental is about £1200, and there are nearly 300
tenants; but I cannot give the exact number.
12,298. Do most of the tenants on these estates fish for you in
summer?-There are more of them who fish for us than for any
other.
12,299. Do you think all who are engaged in the ling fishing fish
for you?-By no means; but I should say that fully three-fourths of
them do.
12,300. You say in your statement that you are trustee for the
proprietors of the Burra Isles: are they the Misses Scott of
Scalloway?-Yes. Mrs. Spence and Miss Scott.
12,301. Are you aware that some complaints were made by the
inhabitants of the Burra Isles, a few years ago, to the agent for the
proprietors in Edinburgh?-Yes, there was a letter sent to him.
12,302. In consequence of these complaints, did you make an
investigation and report?-Yes; I went to the island to inquire into
the matter. The prayer of the petition was, that the proprietors
should be more careful, when another lease was given, not to
allow certain things which the tenants complained of to be inserted
in it.
12,303. At that time was a new lease in contemplation?-No;
there were two or three years to run of the old lease.
12,304. Was the lease of Burra, under which the islands were then
held by Messrs. Hay, granted during your management?-No; it
had been granted some years before.
12,305. A copy of the letter to Mr. Mack which occasioned the
inquiry, was sent to you at the time?-Yes.
12,306. The first complaint in that letter was, 'That every
householder is bound to pay £1 sterling annually for every son
who, being a common fisherman, ships in any Faroe-going fishing
smack, not belonging to the lessees or the agent of the North Sea
Co.; otherwise he must remove from the island, or expel any such
son from his home.' I have not seen the lease in question, but did
you find that that was a well-founded complaint?-There was
nothing of the kind stated in the lease. My understanding of the
complaint is, that when the lease was taken by Messrs. Hay, they
entered into an arrangement with the tenants with regard to the
terms on which they were to occupy under them.
12,307. Did you ascertain whether any such stipulation had been
entered into between Messrs. Hay and the tenants?-I investigated
the matter upon the spot, but I could not find any case where the
money had been paid.
12,308. In what year did you make the investigation?-In 1869.
12,309. Did you find any case in which the money had been
demanded?-I did not find any; but I understand that Messrs.
Hay had sent round or had handed to each of the tenants the terms
of the engagement under which they were to occupy, and that
there was something about it in that. I did not see it myself; but I
understood they were either to fish to Messrs. Hay, or to have
liberty to fish elsewhere if they chose on payment of £1. That was
the rule that had been laid down by Messrs. Hay; but I could not
trace any case in which the money had been paid.
12,310. Have you any objection to state the name of the party who
wrote the letter to Mr. Mack which you now hold in your hand?-I
believe it was a private communication, and I would rather not
mention the name. The writer says, 'Having fulfilled my promise
to write you, I have to express the hope that this confidential
communication may receive your kind consideration.' I don't
know that it is of much importance who wrote the letter; but I may
mention that he was a minister who was in the habit of visiting the
island, and to whom some of the people had made complaints. It
became very clear to me, from my investigation, that the case had
been very much overstated. I got particulars of the prices paid to
the men for several years, and I made inquiry at other places in the
neighbourhood about the prices, and I could not find that they had
any cause of complaint about the prices paid to them for their fish.
[Page 304]
12,311. Did you find the statement to be correct which is
contained in the third head of the letter: 'The price given is
never less than 1s. per cwt. below the average paid for green fish
in the islands; and in the case of herring, not less than 5s. per cran
below the market price is a common thing'?-There was no
foundation for that statement whatever. I found the Burra people
were getting fully as much as any other fishermen.
12,312. Did you ascertain that from an examination of the books
of Messrs. Hay & Co, or from statements made by the people
themselves?-I ascertained the prices paid to the men from
Messrs. Hay & Co.'s books, and on comparing it with the prices
paid in other localities, I found that that was an unfounded
statement altogether.
12,313. Did you find that the fourth complaint, about oysters
being underpaid, was correct?-I found that in that very season
the men were selling their oysters where they liked. There was no
restriction at all at that time. There had been before. I believe
Messrs. Hay had endeavoured to prevent anybody from coming in
and dredging upon the oyster beds that lay between the islands,
and to get the people to deliver the oysters to them; but they had
given up that before that time and allowed them to sell them where
they chose.
12,314. I suppose the result of there being no restriction is that the
oyster beds are nearly exhausted?-They are almost entirely
exhausted. In the course of two seasons they were all taken up.
12,315. Did you ascertain whether a regular system of deception
had been practised in order to evade the obligation to deliver to
Messrs. Hay, while the restriction existed about the oysters?-I did
not find that there was a regular system of deception, because, at
the time when I made my inquiry, any oysters which the men
dredged were sold where they pleased. Messrs. Hay found out,
that unless they had an Act of Parliament, they did not have the
power of hindering the men from selling where they chose. That
oyster bed had been held by the proprietor almost exclusively as
his own property, and for generations it was dealt with as such.
Messrs. Hay & Co. came into the proprietor's place and I daresay
they very naturally supposed that they had the same right; but on
the men insisting on selling where they chose, they found they
could not prevent them.
12,316. Did you find that at the time when it was supposed Messrs.
Hay had that power, a system of deception had prevailed, as is
alleged in this letter, in order to evade the supposed obligation?-
That is one way of putting it; but I should suppose that before the
matter was determined as to the right of the people to sell oysters
where they chose, they had been in the habit of quietly going to
other parties with the oysters, that Messrs. Hay should not know.
12,317. Then I suppose that, so far as it went, that complaint
was not very far from the truth?-It was perfectly untrue. The
statement made in the complaint was that Messrs. Hay only gave
1s. per 100, and that that was paid in goods, while the men could
get 2s. 6d. elsewhere. I found that to be utterly untrue.
12,318. Was it the case that Messrs. Hay paid a larger price
than was stated, or that the higher price could not be obtained
elsewhere?-Oysters had been selling years before as low as 1s.
per 100; but Messrs. Hay were paying the same price as other
people at that time. I think 2s. 6d. was the price in 1869.
12,319. Were Messrs. Hay paying that price then?-They were
paying the same as Mr. Harcus who is still a buyer.
12,320. Was he the only other buyer?-No. I believe Mr.
Nicholson and Mr. Tait also purchased about that time.
12,321. But the previous time, when the oysters were selling for
1s. per 100, was before the date of your inquiry?-Yes, it must
have been some time before.
12,322. Could a larger price have been got elsewhere than from
Messrs. Hay & Co.?-I don't know. I know that oysters were not
so dear at that time as they became afterwards; but at the time
when Messrs. Hay & Co. were the only parties buying oysters, they
got very few. They were not fished to any great extent.
12,323. Did you find that the fifth complaint, that every person
on the island selling any article to a neighbour was liable to
expulsion, had any foundation?-It had a foundation to this extent,
that Messrs. Hay did not allow anybody to set up a shop in the
island; but it was nonsense to say that people were not allowed to
sell any article to a neighbour, such as fish or any of their produce.
12,324. A resident clergyman or schoolmaster might have got fish
for his table if he wanted them?-Yes, or any article of produce
that the people had. The complaint was only true so far that the
people were not allowed to set up retail shops in the island.
12,325. Was there any prohibition on selling tea?-That is what I
refer to.
12,326. Even if they had no shop, was not one neighbour
prevented from selling a 1/2 lb. or 1/4 lb. of tea to another?-I
am not aware that Messrs. Hay ever looked into the matter so
closely as that.
12,327. But was not that the substance of their complaint?-Of
course, if anybody had set up a tea-shop, that would have been
objected to. But this complaint refers to the practice of getting tea
and other goods from merchants in exchange for hosiery; and it
goes on to say, that if a woman exchanged that for anything she
wanted, she exposed her family to the loss of house and land, and
expulsion from the island, if she was known to sell any of the
goods she had received in return for her handiwork to any
neighbour.
12,328. Did you hear of any person being expelled for that?-No,
nor threatened. They told me that several of them would have
had tea and various other things in the island for selling to their
neighbours, if they had been allowed, but that they were prevented
from doing so, and I approved of that.
12,329. Did you find that the people were in a state of nervous
apprehension about expulsion?-Not in the least.
12,330. Then how do you account for this letter, and for these
charges being made, if they were not in a state of anxiety and
nervousness about the matter?-I think the case was put much
more strongly in the letter than it had been put to the writer of
the letter by the people themselves.
12,331. You don't think that the people of Shetland or the
inhabitants of Burra are liable to panics of that kind?-There
was no panic that I was aware of at that time. Some of the people,
when I read over the letter to them, were very much amused to
hear what had been said, and they attributed the statements to two
or three persons who were usually dissatisfied with their condition.
12,332. Is it within your knowledge whether the Burra people were
in the habit for a series of years of carrying over their oysters to
Lerwick, and retailing them there openly?-Yes. I have often met
them carrying oysters to Lerwick in kishies for the purpose of
selling them there.
12,333. You are acquainted with that from the fact that you then
resided in Scalloway?-Yes, and from coming and going and
meeting the people.
12,334. Did you find existing in Burra, at that time, feeling of
bondage most unfavourable in its influence towards the lessees
themselves, and most pernicious in its influence over the tenants
under them?-I could not say that there was anything of that sort.
I found that the people would much rather not have been under a
lessee at all, but have been allowed each to fish for himself.
12,335. Did they wish to fish and cure for themselves?-Some of
them would have liked that, but I found from the best fishermen
that they would not have considered that to be any advantage for
the island on the whole.
12,336. What reason did they assign for their objection to being
under a lessee?-Just that they were under certain restrictions as to
the ling fishing; and naturally a man would prefer to be altogether
free, and to be able to deal as he chose.
[Page 305]
12,337. Did you think these restrictions were such that the people
might reasonably complain of them?-I thought they had not
much to complain of.
12,338. At that time the lease of Messrs. Hay & Co. was within a
year or two of its termination?-Yes. I think it was the last year of
it.
12,339. The letter was dated 5th April 1869, and think the lease
expired in November following. Has it been renewed since?-No.
The tack has been continued on the old plan for two years, as a
sort of intermediate arrangement. There is just a missive which
expires in November next. Indeed I had some difficulty in getting
Messrs. Hay to renew the arrangement, even for two years.
12,340. Were they unwilling to resume their liability for the rents
upon the same terms?-Yes. The reason they gave to me was, that
the great bulk of the people were fishing where they chose, and
that they did not have much profit by the island.
12,341. Do you mean in the ling fishing, or in the Faroe fishing?-
I mean in the fishings generally. There were only a few old men
remaining at home for the fishings, and it was not a great deal of
the produce of the island that they had anything to do with.
12,342. Do Messrs. Hay pay the tack duty annually or half-yearly
to the proprietors?-Half-yearly.
12,343. The tenants, I suppose, as is usual in Shetland, pay only
once a year?-Yes, they pay in November.
12,344. If the proprietors were taking the ground into their
own hands, is it probable they would require the tenants to pay
half-yearly, or has that been in your contemplation?-The money
would require to be raised half-yearly, because it has to be paid
half-yearly. There are heavy liabilities such as interest on bonds to
be paid out of it every half-year, and the money must be raised for
that purpose.
12,345. Do you believe it to be possible for the tenants in Havera,
or on such an island, to pay their rents half-yearly?-I don't think
such a system would work. Spring and summer is the time when
they earn their money to pay their rents with, and we would not be
able to collect the rents at Whitsunday from the tenants.
12,346. Are you aware whether the tacksmen of Burra interfere
with the tenants in the sale of their cattle hosiery, or eggs?-I
know they do not interfere with them in that way.
12,347. Are you aware whether the tacksmen insist on the tenants
taking their supplies from their shops at Scalloway or Lerwick?-I
am sure they do not. Nobody ever alleged that to me.
12,348. Would you as trustee for the proprietors, object to such a
restriction?-Certainly.
12,349. Are you the factor on the estate?-I am trustee. I have
to collect the money from the property, and pay the burdens, and
account to the ladies for the residue.
12,350. Do you suppose the Burra islanders would be benefited
by the establishment of shops in Burra by the tacksmen?-I don't
think that would be any particular benefit to them.
12,351. Is there a population there to support shops?-Not shops.
12,352. Or a shop?-I daresay a shop might pay; but I don't think
it would be any advantage to the people. They are so near to
Scalloway that a shop in Burra would only get a portion of the
custom of the island.
12,353. Do you think the Burra men have an opportunity of
purchasing their goods at other shops than Messrs. Hay & Co.'s?-
Certainly; they don't deal exclusively with them. They can buy
their goods where they like and I think they divide their custom
very much.
12,354. Where else do they buy?-In the other Scalloway shops
and in Lerwick.
12,355. Did you ascertain that in the course of the inquiry which
you made in 1869?-It is a fact well known to me from my
intercourse with the people, I am meeting them every month, not
on the island, but elsewhere.
12,356. Do they tell you that they purchase their goods elsewhere
than from Messrs. Hay & Co.?-I never put the question to them,
because I was quite aware of their dealings being divided. A great
many of the men are fishing to smack owners in Lerwick, and
probably have a good deal of their dealings with the merchants
they fish to.
12,357. Are some of them in your own Faroe vessels?-Yes, we
have two or three.
12,358. Is that your reason for believing that they are not confined
in their dealings to the shops of Messrs. Hay & Co.?-I know that
to be a fact, from various circumstances.
12,359. But you know it from the circumstance that they are
engaged in fishing to other merchants?-No; that does not follow.
12,360. It does not follow as a necessary consequence that they
do not deal with Messrs. Hay & Co. but it is a reasonable
presumption, that if they are fishing to another merchant they
get some of their supplies from his shop?-Certainly.
12,361. Are you prepared to say that the bulk of the dealings of the
Burra men is not at Messrs. Hay's shops?-I should think that
much more than one half of their dealings must be with other
people. That is speaking of the whole population of the island,
and including those men who go to Faroe.
12,362. Are the greater number of the men in Burra engaged in
the Faroe fishing?-There are more of them engaged in the Faroe
fishing than in any other.
12,363. And more on an average than in other districts in
Shetland?-Yes. They have taken to that kind of fishing
more readily than others.
12,364. How, does it happen that they have taken to it?-I don't
know; I suppose it is just from their position, and their early
training in boats. They take to a good fishing rather than to the
Greenland trade. They are generally good fishermen. Taking
them as a class, they are better fishermen than in any other district
that I know of in Shetland.
12,365. Would it be a reasonable presumption to suppose that they
had taken to the Faroe fishing in order to avoid the restrictions
which are laid upon them with regard to the ling fishing?-
Certainly not. These young men would not have remained at
home about the shore fishing. If they had not gone to Faroe they
would have gone to the merchant service or to Greenland.
12,366. Do you think the restriction had anything at all to do with
it?-Nothing whatever.
12,367. But you ascertained in the course of your inquiries, and
you know now, that there is a restriction by the terms of their
leases upon the Burra men with regard to the ling fishing?-Yes,
they hold their land under condition that they are to deliver their
fish to Messrs, Hay.
12,368. Your largest shop is at Reawick, and you have also two
small ones at Foula and Sandness?-Yes.
12,369. Do most of the fishermen engaged in the ling fishing
usually deal at one or other of the stores you have mentioned?-
Yes; there is no other store near.
12,370. Do you mean that there is no other store near Reawick?-
No. I thought you referred to the two smaller shops. All the men
get the whole of their supplies from our stores there.
12,371. At Sandness and Foula there are no other stores within
reach of the fishermen residing there?-No.
12,372. Is there any restriction upon the opening of other shops
in Foula, or on the sale of goods there by any other party who
chooses to attempt that?-As acting for the proprietor, I don't
think we would allow it. We would not allow small shops in
either of these districts if we could help it.
12,373. Would you allow a trader from Scalloway or Lerwick
to sell goods out of his smack there?-Yes; and I have known
instances of them going there from [Page 306] Walls and
Scalloway. There is no restriction upon the like of that.
12,374. Are the inhabitants sometimes supplied with meal and
articles of dress and provisions by other merchants from the
mainland?-The Foula people, annually, when their fishing is
over, come to the mainland, and they can then lay in what supplies
they are in need of.
12,375. Do they come in every year themselves?-Not the whole
of them, but many of them do.
12,376. Do you know whether or not any traders visit the islands
for the purpose of selling provisions or goods?-No; they have not
done that lately. They could have no object in going there.
12,377. Why?-Because they could not compete with us. We
have a shop there for the supply of goods, and we supply them to
the people on as moderate terms as other parties could do.
Therefore the men have no object in dealing elsewhere.
12,378. I suppose it would be a very small trade that could be
driven with 40 families?-Yes, rather.
12,379. But I presume you consider it fair that, as you supply these
families year by year, and are in a sense responsible that their
supply shall not run short, you should in return have the bulk of
their business?-They may go where they choose.
12,380. But would you continue to supply them if you did not have
the bulk of their dealings?-No, we would not keep a shop there if
we did not have the bulk of their dealings; it would not be worth
our while. I may explain that, a few years ago, some of the young
men wished to cure their own fish, and go out with them to the
mainland. There was a little discussion amongst them about it,
and we put it to them whether they would wish to have that liberty
or not and in order to ascertain their views, we sent in a paper to
the schoolmaster, and asked him, to circulate it among the men.
[The witness put in a document in the following terms, signed in
the affirmative by 65 men:-
'Garriock & Co., who have for the last fourteen years kept a curing
establishment on the island of Foula, and found the undivided
produce small enough to pay for the trouble and risk of it, while
furnishing the necessaries of life, fishing material, etc., at ordinary
rates, would, now that some parties have shown an inclination and
even begun to cure their own fish, wish to ascertain the views of
the people as to whether they desire G. & Co. to continue their
establishment as before; or would they prefer each to cure as it
suits him, and provide his necessaries as he can? Whilst there is
always the most perfect freedom to all to fish, labour, and sell their
produce in what appears to them the best market, the isolated
position of the island appears to require that one system be
followed by all.
'The heads of families and other fishermen will therefore please
indicate their views by subscribing below, adding yes if the
former system be preferred; or no if otherwise.-1867.']