I asked for work from him when I was in great need, and I got
supplies and worsted, and whatever I asked from him.
11,686. Has that system of dealing been going on for eleven
years?-Yes.
11,687. Have you always got your supplies from his shop?-I
always got what I asked.
11,688. Have you got money from him when you wanted it?-Yes.
The first I got was 2s., and the last I got was 10s.
11,689. What was that for?-I just got it on the work I was doing.
11,690. When did you get the 10s.?-It was before you came to
Shetland; I cannot tell how many weeks it was ago. I sent off a
score of veils to my sister-in-law in Lerwick, and told her to ask a
few shillings for me. She did so, and Mr. Sinclair gave her 10s.
11,691. Had she to ask more than once for the money?-No; she
just took in the veils, and he gave her the money, so far as I am
aware.
11,692. Did you tell her to say what you wanted the money for?-I
did not.
11,693. Had you ever got as much money as that before?-No; but
whatever money I asked I got, from 6d. upwards.
11,694. Have you ever asked for a sixpence or a shilling?-I have
asked for it many a time and got it and I generally got a little more
than I asked.
11,695. Was 2s. the next largest sum you got before the 10s.?-
No, I had got 3s., and 4s. 6d., and so on.
11,696. Did you want that money to pay your rent with?-I have a
pension of 11s. a quarter from the Merchant Seamen's Fund, and
that pays my rent The pension is paid to me in Lerwick by Mr.
Stewart.
11,697. Do you always get payment of that yourself when you go
to Lerwick?-Yes, except sometimes when I cannot go, and then I
send a paper to my brother in Lerwick, and he gets the money for
me. My brother is in Mr. Harrison's store.
11,698. Did you ever have occasion to barter any of the goods you
got for provisions?-I never did that except once when a woman
took a quarter of a pound of tea from me and gave me milk for it,
as I had not [Page 287] the money at the time. She was well
satisfied with Mr. Sinclair's tea., and told me to get it from him. It
was the same to her as money.
Scalloway, January 22, 1872, JOHN THOMSON, examined.
11,699. You are a shopkeeper and grocer at Sandsound in the
parish of Sandsting?-Yes, in a small way.
11,700. How far is that from here?-About 10 miles when we go
by land, but it is a little shorter when we go by boat.
11,701. On whose property is your shop?-On the property of Mr.
Greig of Reawick, and Mr. Umphray is trustee for it.
11,702. How far are you from Reawick?-About 3 miles.
11,703. Do you do anything in the fishing?-A little. I buy fish in
winter and spring, but not in summer. I don't have the chance of
buying any in summer. The place is a little inland, and there is not
much fishing carried on there, except in bad weather in winter and
spring when the men go to fish in the bays.
11,704. Do you cure the fish yourself?-Yes.
11,705. How much may you buy in the course of a winter and
spring?-In some years I have bought as much as nearly 7 tons of
dry fish, cod and ling, and in other years as low as 2 tons.
11,706. Do you settle with the men for these fish when they are
delivered to you?-Yes.
11,707. Do they take the price in money or in goods?-I give them
money unless they want goods, but if they want goods they get
them.
11,708. Do you ask them if they want anything?-Sometimes, and
at other times if they don't ask for goods I give them the price.
11,709. You deal both in groceries and soft goods?-Yes, but very
little in soft goods, except at times.
11,710. Do some of the men run accounts with you?-Some of
them do until about 1st April when they are going to Faroe or to
the south; but with others settle just at the time when they get the
goods or when they give me their fish. That is done either way as
the men prefer it themselves.
11,711. Do you run accounts with the fishermen for supplies at
other seasons of the year?-Sometimes, when they are a little hard
up in the summer time, I give them a little supply either of meal or
tea, or anything else, to oblige them; but I don't like to do that to a
great extent. I cannot do it very well.
11,712. Do the fishermen generally go for their supplies in
summer to the larger merchants?-Yes; those who go to the Faroe
fishing generally do so.
11,713. Why is that?-Because when they are out at the fishing for
the larger merchants, it is better for them to take their supplies at
their shops.
11,714. But why could they not deal with you as well?-The larger
merchants are more able to give them credit as they are fishing for
them. In summer and harvest I generally sell, for cash when I can
get it, and I am not very able to give long credits.
11,715. Do you do much business for cash in summer and
harvest?-Not much; about £2 or £3 a week is generally the
most.
11,716. And I suppose the men and their families generally have
to go to the large merchants where they can get credit at that
season?-At that season of the year they do.
11,717. Do you think you would have a better business if the men
were paid for their fish as they were delivered?-I suppose I
might.
11,718. They would not require to get credit then?-No; but the
men who go to Faroe in the smacks have to make long voyages,
and they could not be paid in that way.
11,719. But there are a number of men at the haaf in your district,
are there not?-No, not in my district. There is scarcely a boat in
my parish. The boats which go to that fishing are farther north-at
Northmaven and Sandness.
11,720. Then the Faroe fishermen in your parish are only home
twice in the summer?-Yes; they generally come home twice,
once in June, and then about the beginning of harvest but some do
not return until September.
11,721. Therefore they could not, in that case, be paid at the
delivery of their fish, so as to have cash to deal with a merchant
who is not employing them?-They could not.
11,722. Do you think you would have a better chance of business
if they were settled with when they came home from Faroe,
instead of having to wait for a good many months for a
settlement?-I don't know. It takes so long a time to get the
fish dried, that I don't think they could very well be settled with
when they came home.
11,723. They might be settled with then if they were paid
according to the weight of the fish when they were landed?-
Yes; but I could not say whether I would do any better business
in that case or not.
11,724. Do you think you would do a better business if you had
some boats of your own?-Yes.
11,725. Why?-Because I would be getting more fish.
11,726. But would you do a better business in your provisions and
goods?-Yes, I might be a small bit better.
11,727. Would that be because the men would come to you for
supplies?-Yes; and then I would have more fish too.
11,728. Are the men at liberty to sell as many fish as they please to
you in winter and spring?-Yes, at any time of the year.
11,729. Then you could engage a boat's crew in your district
without any restriction?-Yes; there are no bound men there.
11,730. Are there many merchants in the parish of Sandsting who
do about the same extent of business as you?-I think most of
them do more business than me, because it is longer since they
commenced, and they are better in the way of it.
11,731. Do you mean that they have got a larger connection?-
Yes; and a better locality.
11,732. Are most of them engaged in buying fish?-No; there are
scarcely any of them about me who are in the fishing trade, except
Messrs. Garriock & Co. They have almost all the fishing business
in that part of the country.
11,733. Have they the largest shop business too?-Yes.
11,734. Whom do you sell your fish to?-To Mr. Harrison
generally. We sell them to him as soon as they are dried at the
end of the year.
11,735. Are you paid for them in cash?-Yes, if we want cash.
11,736. If you don't want cash, do you take goods for your
shop?-Yes, if we want them; but if we want cash he gives it at
any time either in advance or at settling time.
11,737. But he does supply goods in a wholesale way to
merchants?-Yes; he sometimes supplies me with little meal
and tea, and general groceries.
11,738. Do you not get all your supplies from him?-No, not the
whole of them. I think I get as much from Glasgow as from him;
generally from two houses there.
11,739. What do you get from Glasgow?-Tea and sugar and
coffee, and general groceries.
11,740. Do you also get the same articles from Harrison &
Sons?-Yes.
11,741. Do you pay the same price to both?-They are nearly all
about the same price, except that the goods from Glasgow may be
about a halfpenny per pound less.
11,742. Is that after allowing for freight?-No; it is taking them at
cost price.
11,743. Do you write for these things to Glasgow direct?-Yes,
when I get them from there.
11,744. When do you order them from there?-My [Page 288]
dealings in that way are not always at the one time. Sometimes in
the spring I order them fortnightly, and sometimes monthly, and
sometimes at longer intervals. They are sent to Lerwick in the
steamboat, and brought across to Scalloway by carts, and I come
here with a boat for them. I think it is about six weeks since I got
any tea from Glasgow, and it is a month since I got some other
stuff.
11,745. Did you come from Sandsound to Scalloway for the tea?-
No; I took it out the north road Weisdale and all overland.
11,746. Did you come to Scalloway on purpose for that?-No; the
north carts took it out.
11,747. Do you think the tea which you got in that way cost you
more when it was delivered than the tea you got from Harrison &
Sons?-No. I think that, taking it on the whole, and after paying
the freight it would come to just about the same.
11,748. Were the qualities the same?-Yes, as near as I could
judge.
11,749. Do you sell both kinds of tea at the same price?-Yes, at
8d.
11,750. How much of your fish that you sell to Harrison & Sons
will be paid for in goods?-About one half as near as I can judge.
11,751. Do you receive the other half in cash?-Yes.
11,752. Was that the case last year?-Yes.
11,753. When do you settle with Harrison & Sons?-I settled with
them last year on 1st October for the fish which I had got in the
previous winter and spring.
11,754. Do many of the shops in your parish deal with Harrison &
Sons in the same way?-I think none of them do. None of the
other merchants there sell fish to them, so far as I am aware.
Scalloway, January 22, 1872, AGNES TAIT, examined.
11,755. You live in Scalloway?-Yes.
11,756. Do you live alone?-Yes.
11,757. Do you support yourself entirely by knitting?-Yes; I
cannot work at anything else. I knit fine shawls and veils. I have
knitted for the last six months to Mr. Moncrieff with his worsted,
and I have been paid in goods. Before that I knitted with my own
worsted, and I sold my work to any merchant in Lerwick, generally
to Mr. Sinclair. I never asked any money from him, because we
knew that it was the rule that we would not get it. I wanted it for
many purposes; but I would not have got it even though I had
asked it.
11,758. But you could not get on without some money, I
suppose?- No. I sent some shawls and veils south for
money with which to pay my rent.
11,759. Did you get enough money from them for all that you
wanted?-I was often at a loss for money, and then I had to sell
tea and other things which I had got in Lerwick for my hosiery. I
sold tea and soft goods to any neighbour who was kind enough to
take them.
11,760. Such as Mrs. Tait?-No, I never sold any to Mrs. Tait.
11,761. Did you sell your things often in that way?-Yes, very
often.
11,762. Every month?-I don't think I did it every month.
11,763. Did you do it two or three times every year?-Yes; oftener
than that.
11,764. How much goods did you sell in that way?-If I sold a
shawl for about 18s. I would get 18s. worth of goods, and of that a
good deal was tea-perhaps one pound or a pound and a half.
11,765. Would you sell all that tea?-Yes.
11,766. And something else besides?-I don't recollect of selling
anything else except the tea.
11,767. Did you always bring home some tea from Lerwick in
order to sell it?-Yes.
11,768. And did you always find some of your neighbours ready to
buy it?-Yes; there were always some of them kind enough to buy
it from me.
11,769. Did you sell it at the full price that it had cost you?-Yes.
11,770. You did not sell it under its value?-No.
11,771. You did that very often, because you had no other way of
getting money?-Yes.
11,772. Do you ever get any lines from the merchants in
Lerwick?-No.
11,773. Do you always settle for your hosiery articles at once?-
Yes.
11,774. Would you rather have money than be paid for your work
in the way you have mentioned?-Yes, I would rather have
money; but we knew that we would not get it, and therefore we
never asked it.
11,775. Do you think you could make a better use of the money
than you do of the goods?-Yes, a great deal better.
11,776. You think you could turn it to better account?-Yes.
11,777. Do you think you take more out in soft goods than you
require?-We often take out things which we are not requiring.
We cannot get anything else and therefore we have just to take
out the goods.
11,778. Can you mention anything which you have taken out when
you were not requiring it?-No. I afterwards sold it; I did not keep
it.
11,779. What are the goods you have sold?-Cottons.
11,780. Anything else?-No; but I have not sold any cotton for the
last twelve months.
11,781. Did you ever sell cotton or any other goods under the price
you paid for them?-No, I generally got the value. I did not sell
these things about Scalloway; I went up occasionally to see some
friends of mine in the west side of Sandsting, and I took the goods
with me.
Scalloway, January 22, 1872, WILLIAM HARCUS, examined.
11,782. You are a merchant in Scalloway?-Yes; I have a small
business here. I have carried on business as a merchant here for
between four and five years.
11,783. Have you many transactions with the fishermen here?-I
have, in buying and selling groceries and general goods, but not in
curing fish.
11,784. Do you run any accounts with fishermen?-No; unless
perhaps for a few days, until they come back again to settle. It
could not be said that I do credit trade. It is professedly a cash
trade.
11,785. Have you any disadvantages in carrying on your trade from
the system of barter which prevails in Shetland?-Perhaps if the
whole trade were done in cash, there might be some advantages in
some respects-that is to say, if there was money always coming
to the fishermen at the end of the season, or when the settlement
takes place.
11,786. If that were so, you think a merchant carrying on a cash
business would be able to increase his receipts?-I think so.
11,787. Is it your opinion, from your own experience, that a
ready-money business is limited by the want of money in the
hands of the fishermen and tenants in the district?-I think it is.
I think if there was money there would be more trade done in a
ready-money way than there is.
11,788. Are you aware that very little money, compared with
the amount of their earnings, passes into the hands of the
fishermen?-I have no means of knowing that exactly; but I
don't see much money, among the fishermen. What money we
get is principally from sailors returning from the south, and, of
course, a little from the fishermen after settling time.
11,789. Do you find that your business is larger after settling time
than at other times?-Last year it was larger, because there was a
good Faroe fishing. This year I don't think there has been any
difference.
11,790. Do your books show that there is a larger [Page 289] cash
business done after settling time?-No, my books don't show that.
I don't enter cash transactions in them.
11,791. How do you know that the business was larger at that
time?-Just by noticing the daily or weekly drawings.
11,792. Did you keep notes of your weekly drawings?-I did at
one time, but I have been so busy lately, and so much away from
home, that I have not got that attended to.
11,793. How long is it since you kept notes of your weekly
drawings which would show whether your business increased or
not in the spring?-I think it was only in the first year that I was in
business that I did so; but I can recollect pretty well about the
average amount of my weekly drawings. In a small business like
mine we can depend a good deal upon the memory for that.
11,794. And so far as your recollection serves you, you think your
weekly drawings were larger at that period?-Yes. When there
has been a good fishing, and the men have something to get at the
settlement our drawings are usually larger after that.
11,795. Do you think that shows that the men prefer, when they
have money in their hands, to deal with you rather than to deal
with the fish merchant who employs them?-I don't think it does;
at least I could not say that it does, because the fish merchant who
employs them might be having a larger cash return at that time too.
11,796. At all events you may fairly entertain the opinion that you
would have a better chance among the fishermen if a cash system
were general?-I think so.
11,797. If, for example, the fishermen were paid by weekly, or
fortnightly, or monthly payments, for their fish delivered during
the summer, do you think you would be more likely to obtain an
additional share of their custom?-If that were possible, I might;
but I don't think it would be possible to pay them at such short
periods, because it would occupy so much time. The fishermen
would have to come in and wait perhaps whole days before they
could be settled with, and I don't think that would be a good plan
for them at all.
11,798. If a note of the fish is taken at the time when they are
delivered, would there be any difficulty in settling at the same
time?-I never considered that; but I think there would be a
difficulty in settling with the fishermen every day when they
landed their fish.
11,799. In winter and spring they are settled with every time
they deliver fish?-Yes; but the quantity delivered then is
comparatively small. Sometimes in summer the fishermen are
working ten or twelve miles away from where the curer is, and of
course, to come in and be settled with every week, or even every
month, would be a great hardship. They might lose very good days
when they could be more profitably employed at the fishing. I
think quarterly or half-yearly settlements would be as much as
could be managed.
11,800. You have not had any experience yourself in settling with
fishermen, either before you began business here or since?-No. I
have a few men fishing lobsters, but they are not worth speaking
about. I think there are only three crews' of them, and I settle
always with them when they bring up their fish; but the trade is so
small that there is no difficulty in settling with them then.
11,801. How long does that fishing last?-It is only carried on
during the winter; and it was arranged that they should come
fortnightly with the lobsters, and settle fortnightly, when the
weather would permit them.
11,802. Do you do anything in the oyster fishery?-I did at one
time, and I still do a little, but there are very few to be had.
11,803. How are they paid for?-In cash when I buy them.
11,804. Do you know what is the practice of other buyers-I
would rather that they should state that themselves. I think Mr.
Nicholson buys for cash, but I am not certain. He is present.
11,805. When you settle for your lobsters, where is the payment
made?-In my shop.
11,806. In that case do the men generally spend part of the cash
there and then?-They sometimes spend part of it.
11,807. Do they not spend part of it generally?-Yes; but I lay
down the money on the counter, and they take it up. They have
the choice either of spending it or taking it away.
11,808. Are accounts kept with any of these men?-With one of
them who superintends the bringing home of the oysters, there is
an account kept.
11,809. How often is that account settled?-Just whenever he
wants a settlement. He always gets money with him to disburse
for current expenses, and he is permitted to take from that
whatever he wants for his own use; and if he requires more money,
then there is a settlement.
11,810. Do you mean that you settle with him whenever he wants
a new advance?-No. He always has some money of mine in his
hands, and he has authority to use that both in paying the men who
are fishing for me, and for his own use.
11,811. But when that money is exhausted he comes and gets
a new supply?-He settles for that money, and what he has
taken for his own use is put to his own account, and his own
account is settled whenever he wishes to see how we stand.
That is done frequently; and I have the book here which is
kept with him. [Produces pass-book.] This [showing] is the
cash he gets for the general account, £7, 13s. 4d., and then £10,
and then £3, 17s. 2d. At that time he was in a different trade; he
was collecting shell-fish. Then he buys produce, and the account
is balanced at the end of October, when he has £5 still on hand to
give me. Here [showing] the account balanced again, and he had
£2 still on hand.
11,812. You keep that pass-book with that man; but not with the
other fishermen whom he employs?-No. They just get their
money.
11,813. Where are these men employed?-In St. Magnus Bay.
11,814. That is a long way from here?-Yes.
11,815. These are not the men that are paid in your shop?-The
men who bring the oysters are paid in the shop, and sometimes one
of these men may come along with the other man to help him to
bring home the lobsters, and then they are all paid in the shop.
11,816. But not the others who do not come?-No. The man who
has charge of the fishing for me takes the money with him to pay
them when he goes back.
11,817. I understood you to say that when the men came with
oysters and lobsters to the shop, and were paid, they generally took
away some supplies from the shop?-They generally do but they
are not asked to do it.
11,818. Do they appear to think it a fair and proper thing that they
should do so?-I think they do. I have heard them remark that
they ought to spend the money where they get it.
11,819. Is that a common sort of feeling among the men?-Yes, it
is a common feeling in the country.
11,820. In short, they apologize if they don't spend the money in
the shop where they get it?-Something like that I should not say,
that they apologize, but sometimes they tell me what they want the
money for, and they say they have to take it away. Of course, they
are not asked to leave it.
11,821. But there seems to be a kind of understanding that they are
to spend part of their earnings in the shop?-The people seem to
have the opinion that they ought to do that.
11,822. And I suppose the merchant has some feeling of the same
kind also?-I never ask them to spend the money in the shop; but,
of course, we are glad to get what money we can.
11,823. I suppose they don't require to be asked to spend some of
it?-No.
11,824. Are you engaged in the hosiery trade at all?-I once
bought a little, just to try the trade, but I gave it up. My experience
of it was that it would not pay. Being the only one about here who
gave [Page 290] meal for the hosiery, it was principally meal that
was taken, and I found no profit on it.
11,825. Then that would lead you to form the opinion that it would
not pay unless soft goods were taken in return for the hosiery?-
Unless goods were taken on which a heavy profit was got, I did not
see that it could pay me; but I tried the trade for so short a time
that I could hardly say I gave a fair trial, or that I could speak so
well about it as one who had tried it for years.
11,826. Do you not think it would be a more expedient system if
hosiery goods were paid in cash, according to prices regulated by
the demand, and that the merchants should make a fair profit upon
the hosiery itself?-That is my opinion. I believe that everything
ought to be paid for in cash, at a fair price to allow a profit.
11,827. Have you had many cases coming under your observation
in which women have been unable to obtain the necessaries of
life without bartering away the goods they have obtained for their
hosiery?-I have known few cases of that kind.
11,828. Have you been induced to purchase goods from these
women?-No.
11,829. Have you known parties who have done so?-No. They
have been offered in my shop, but I have never bought any of
them.
11,830. Have they been frequently offered?- Not very frequently;
but I have no doubt, if I had begun to buy them, they would have
been offered more frequently.
11,831. Do women generally expect to get the full price for the
goods which they offer?-I just refused to buy them. I never came
to the question of price at all, because if I had begun to buy goods
in that way, my trade would have degenerated entirely into an
agency for that sort of barter.
11,832. Are you aware whether there are parties in the country
whose principal trade consists in purchasing goods from such
women and selling them again?-I am not aware of any.
11,833. You don't know whether there are hawkers or pedlars who
live in that way?-I don't know. I think it is only right for me to
say that it takes a long time to settle with Shetland men owing to
them not being able to read accounts, and that may account for the
fact that they settle so seldom. I believe that if crew were to settle
every three months, it might take them a whole day to carry
through that settlement.
11,834. Is that from defective education in arithmetic?-Yes, from
defective education.
11,835. Shetland men generally seem a very intelligent and
well-educated class of men for their rank of life?-Some of
them are.
11,836. Do you think they are further back in arithmetic than in
other branches of education?-I think so.
11,837. How do you account for that?-I cannot account for it.
11,838. In what way have you ascertained that fact?-In settling
with the few men that I have had dealings with.
11,839. Don't you think that if pass-books were kept regularly the
settlement would become a shorter process than it is?-Yes; but
many of them would not be able to read the pass-books, and of
course they would be of little use to them. Still, a great many now
can read them, because the boys are being better educated, and I
think the country is getting ripe for a new system. I think it right
you add that pass-books, as a matter of course, should be given to
every one having accounts.
11,840. But suppose the parties having accounts don't choose to
bring pass-books with them, and neglect to keep them up, are they
not themselves to blame?-Yes; the merchants cannot help that.
11,841. Don't you think it would be as easy for the fishermen to
have the price of their fish entered in the fish book at the time they
are delivered, and the calculation of the whole value made at that
time: the amount of each take of fish is entered in the fish book
when it is landed?-I suppose so, but I have no experience of that.
11,842. Might the price not be entered as easily?-I should think
so; but that will be a question for those who are engaged in the
trade. I can see no reason why it should not be done; but I
understand the custom of the country is to fix the price afterwards
at the end of the season.
11,843. But the price might be fixed according to the current price
at the end of the season?-I have had no experience on that
matter, and I cannot say.*
11,844. If you don't drive a credit trade, I suppose you don't keep
any books except a day-book?-I just keep a day-book and ledger,
for the wholesale trade. There are no retail transactions that pass
through my books at all. The ledger contains the names of those I
deal with in the south.
11,845. Are the prices at which you sell provisions higher or lower
than those at which they are sold in the neighbouring shops?-It
would be impossible for me to say exactly; but I think they are
about the same.
11,846. What is the retail price of meal just now in your shop?-It
is 141/2d. per peck.
11,847. And of flour?-There are two kinds, one at 1s. and on
at 13d. Meal is always 1/2d. peck dearer in Scalloway than in
Lerwick, on account of the cartage.
11,848. Is there no meal brought here by sea?-Very little.
11,849. Have you many business transactions with the inhabitants
of Burra?-Yes, some.
11,850. Do some of the men purchase at your shop the supplies
they require for their families?-Yes, occasionally.
11,851. Do they do so for ready money, or upon credit?-Either
for ready money or for eggs.
11,852. Do they sell all their eggs to you?-I don't know. I think
they sell to all the grocers in the village.
11,853. In what way are their eggs paid for?-The eggs are
generally paid for in barter at one price, and [Page 291] in cash
at another price; but, for the last three months, I have bought them
at the barter price for cash. The present price is 9d. per dozen,
whether paid for in goods or cash, but they are very seldom sold
for cash.
11,854. What is the kind of goods generally taken in exchange for
eggs?-Everything we sell-tea, sugar, meal, bread, and soft
goods.
11,855. Do you export a number of the eggs you buy?-Yes. They
are sent south by the steamer.
11,856. Have there been any whales driven in here, while you have
been resident in Scalloway?-There was one shoal of whales
driven into the bay below this place since I came here. They were
sold by auction. Mr. Garriock, of Reawick, managed the sale.
The parties concerned in the capture got two-thirds of the proceeds
of the oil as their share.
11,857. Are you aware that complaints are made with regard to the
landlord's claim to have one-third of the oil?-Yes; there have
been complaints made. I had a share in the whales that were
driven ashore, and I wrote to the Board of Trade about it, but it
seemed they could do nothing; at least they did not choose to do
anything in the matter.
11,858. Were the whales of the bottle-nosed kind?-No. They are
known by the name of caain, or driving whales.
11,859. Did the Board of Trade decline to interfere on the ground
that the Crown had no interest in the kind of whale that was driven
ashore?-Yes; they said the Crown had no interest in that kind of
whales. We thought, as the Government claim the foreshores and
beaches, the proprietors had no right to claim any share of the oil,
because the blubber is never taken above high-water mark Most
of the whales were killed at sea, and dragged ashore, and we
thought the fishermen should have the same right to beach whales
as to beach cod or ling, or anything else under the Act regulating
the fishings.
11,860. Did you obtain any information at that time, as to the
grounds upon which the landlords' claim for one-third of the
whales was based?-I did not ascertain that they had any claim for
it, other than the custom of the country, in the same way as they
claim right to bind the fishermen to fish for them, and to no other.
The Board of Trade did not say that the landlords had any right to
claim the whales; they advised me to go to law and see; but I did
not think it advisable to incur the expense of raising an action on
my own account.
11,861. Have you found your trade hampered in any degree by the
fishermen feeling under an obligation to deal for their supplies
with the merchants by whom they are employed?-I have said
already, that if the fishermen were paid oftener, more money
would be circulated, and trade would be more divided; but it
would all depend upon whether the fishermen were in debt or not,
because we could not expect the fish-curers to pay those men who
were in debt to them.
11,862. Have you found fishermen representing to you that they
would purchase goods at your shop if they were not obliged to go
where they could get credit?-I have occasionally heard such
things here, but not very often.
11,863. Perhaps you have suspected that oftener than it has been
expressed to you?-Yes.
11,864. A man does not always speak about his reasons for dealing
with a particular merchant?-I don't think he does; but I don't
think it fair if I pay ready money for such things as I buy, such as
oysters and winkles, that others should not do the same to a greater
extent than they do. I don't mean to say that they should cash for
everything, but I think they should settle oftener.
11,865. You think the fishermen should be able to have a little
money in their hands at times, instead of having it only once a
year, in January?-I think so.
11,866. And even then, I suppose, they don't always have to get
money?-I don't think they have.
11,867. Do you think that, upon the whole, your payments to
fishermen are repaid to you?-Not at once. They may take the
money home and come with it again, but it is not handed over to
me at the time when the men get it. I have paid £40 in one week
for shell-fish, without drawing more than £10.
11,868. Do your books show that?-No.
11,869. These were all cash transactions?-Yes.
11,870. But I suppose you may sometimes have paid £40 out in a
week and drawn £30 of it back?-No. I never drew £30.
* Mr. Harcus afterwards sent a letter in which he said-
'Finding that exception has been taken by certain of my neighbours
to a part of my evidence before the Truck Commission, I wish to
say in explanation, that when the question was put whether I
would approve in all cases of daily or weekly settlements, several
difficulties occurred to my mind, and the want of proficiency in
arithmetic among the fishermen was one of them, and not the
only one, as is being attempted to be made to appear. I hope my
words will bear out this idea. If my memory serves me right I gave
as one difficulty the great distance between the fishing-ground
and curer's headquarters; and I was having in consideration the
extra expense that would be incurred if provision were made at
out-stations for daily or weekly settlements, and the probability of
an extra hand being required whose wages would have to come off
the fisherman.
'With regard to my statements as to the proportion of Shetland
fishermen who would be able to settle quickly by having
pass-books, I was considering that it would be the duty of the men
to divide their own shares, and to make all calculations ready for
entering in their several pass-books, and that where there were
boys forming part of a crew, and having fractional shares, very few
indeed of the men could divide such shares. I think I also stated
that I was speaking of those I had dealt with; but, of course, I
could not be understood to speak of anything further than my
experience went.
'I was also having in view that should a crew only require a few
minutes to settle, yet if many crews came up at one time, as the
tides and nature of the fishing would necessitate, some of them
would have to wait several hours, which time could not possibly
be spared, as during the busy part of the season the men can only
allow themselves from four to five hours out of the twenty-four for
sleep. Neither do I think that pass-books can expedite settlement
much as some say. They can do little more than save the time
required to head a printed form of account, say three or four
minutes for each crew; but of course, are indispensable for other
purposes.
'It will be seen from my evidence that the oftener curers settle
with their men the better for my trade; and therefore, wishing to
guard against having my mind influenced by selfish motive, I
stated honestly what objections to daily or weekly settlements
occurred to my mind at the moment.
'I trust it will be seen from my evidence as to my own practice
that I approve of making settlements as often as practicable, in
order to teach the people self-reliance and provident habits, and
also to give them a chance to lay out their earnings to the best
advantage.
' I have no wish to disparage this people. On the contrary, I think
they deserve very great praise for being what they are under very
unfavourable circumstances, and if this were the proper place I
would have great pleasure in saying a good deal on this point; but
though their general intelligence is perhaps superior to that of the
same class in any other part of the country, I have not met with
much proficiency in arithmetic among old and middle-aged men
especially; and it is not difficult to see from the evidence the small
amount of their experience in handling accounts, and the want of
inducements to cultivate the art of book-keeping.'
Scalloway, January 22, 1872, Rev. NICOL NICOLSON, examined.
11,871. You are a clergyman of the Independent Church in
Scalloway?-I am. I have been twenty-two years here, first
as missionary, and afterwards as pastor of a church.
11,872. Are your people mostly engaged in fishing?-Some of
them are.
11,873. I suppose you are intimately acquainted with the condition
of the fishing population of this district?-It appears to me by this
time that I am not so well acquainted with it as I thought, because I
have been hearing things coming out that I did not understand to
be the case before the evidence was given.
11,874. Were you aware of the fact that very few fishermen
received a large part of their earnings in money?-I understood
that all of them who were out of debt got money from the
merchants when they wanted it. I was once a fisherman myself,
and that was the way in which I was dealt with. I did not think
that in any of the shops here the men who had cash in the
merchant's hands, and who were in necessity for it would not
have got it.
11,875. Do you not think it would be better for the fishermen to be
paid for their fish more frequently than once a year?-There are
certain boats that deliver their fish weekly, and certainly it would
be better for the men in them to be paid weekly; but there are a
great many of the fishermen employed in smacks, from which they
do not come ashore weekly, nor monthly.
11,876. Do you mean that the Faroe fishermen cannot be paid at
short intervals?-I mean that those who fit out smacks and agree
with men to fish on board of them for the season, cannot bring
about a settlement with them until the end of the season.
11,877. But would it not be expedient for a man who is engaged
in the home fishing, and who comes ashore every two or three
days, to have his money paid to him at shorter intervals than those
at which he now gets it, so that he might use it at his own
discretion?-It has come under my observation that many crews
who were ready to fish had no boat nor lines until they went to a
merchant who would supply them with them, and then they made
an agreement with that merchant to fish for him. They are in debt
before they begin, and how can they be paid until the merchant
sees his boat and lines clear?-Until they are cleared, he cannot
afford to pay the men.
11,878. But in other trades, merchants frequently have to pay
weekly wages to the men they employ, and take their risk of the
market?-They take their risk of the market as it is; but if a
merchant has due to him the whole value of the boat and lines, he
cannot pay money down to the men and allow them to go away
with it. He must keep it until he gets paid, or else he will be a
poor man.
11,879. Would it not be within the power of the fishermen to
purchase their own boats and lines?-They should do that, but I
don't find them doing it. I know of only one man here who has
done it.
11,880. Do you think it is impossible for the ordinary run of
fishermen to make as much money as would pay for their boat and
lines?-Most of the fishermen hereabout can never do it, owing to
the way they live and the small fishings they make. They are not
very fit to go out except in fine weather; and then they have to
maintain themselves on shore in coarse weather.
11,881. How does the way in which they live prevent [Page 292]
them from being able to purchase boats and lines?-They are poor
men; they have no capital; and they are neither fed nor clothed in
such a way as to enable them to carry on the fishing properly. If
any man will give them credit for a boat and lines they just hang
on with him, and never make money, or catch fish from which
money can be made. I know a number of boats that seem to do
very little all the year round. The crews are mostly old, worn-out
men, and some of them are perhaps not very provident at home. I
never saw them fed and clothed like regular fishermen; and you
cannot expect them to go to sea properly.
11,882. What do you mean when you say that they are not fed and
clothed like regular fishermen?-I mean like fishermen on the
coast of Scotland, or in any other place.
11,883. Have you had some experience among fishermen on the
coast of Scotland or elsewhere than here?-Not on the coast of
Scotland, further than that I have gone among them, and spoken
with them, and seen how they get on. I have seen them go off
almost every day in winter, unless when there was a very extra
breeze of wind.
11,884. Have they better boats in these places?-Yes; they have
good boats, and they are well-clad, well-fed, healthy men; while
there are men going on board the boats here who I believe, these
other men would not take on board with them, owing to their want
of strength.
11,885. You are not speaking of the ordinary run of Shetland
fishermen just now?-I am speaking of the Scalloway men. I
understand that in some of the islands, such as Burra, there are a
class of very good men; but here there are no men staying ashore,
except young boys and old men. All the rest go into the merchant
service. A few go to Faroe, but only a few.
11,886. It is among these people who live in Scalloway that your
experience chiefly lies?-Yes; it is to them I refer when I speak of
the people about here.
11,887. So that when you are speaking about the advantages or
disadvantages of a change, your remarks rather apply to the people
of Scalloway than to the Shetland fishermen in general?-I say
that most of the fishermen with whom I am acquainted in
Scalloway, except one boat's crew, are such men as never do make
earnings. They cannot get their boat and lines except on credit,
and the merchants who give them out on credit require to keep
what little fish they catch until these are paid, while the poor men
are always asking for further advances on which to live. Therefore
the men cannot have any money; and I don't blame the merchants,
because the men still continue indebted to them.
11,888. Do you entertain that opinion with regard to other
fishermen, strong young men, who are able to make better
fishings than those you are now speaking of?-I believe there
are such men in Burra, and perhaps even in Trondra, but I don't
know any such men in Scalloway who are inclined to go to the
fishing. Strong young men there go elsewhere.
11,889. Could these strong young men in Burra and Trondra
purchase their own boats?-I think they could.
11,890. And that you consider would be an advantage to any
fisherman?-Yes, it would be an advantage but I question whether
many of the young men in Burra would confine themselves to boat
fishing.
11,891. Do you think the system of being paid only once a year has
the effect of producing improvident habits among the men?-I
don't know. I was once a fisherman myself, and paid once a year,
and I liked it well enough, for if I wanted money sooner I got it;
but if I could do without it, I was pleased to get a larger sum at one
time, and have it in reserve.
11,892. There is no doubt that, to many men, it may be an
advantage to get a large sum paid at once; but, looking at the
generality of the people that you live among, do you not think it
would be better for them to have their money in their hand, paid to
them every fortnight or every month? May they not, under the
present system, run up larger accounts with the merchant who
supplies them than they can afford to pay?-I am not aware that
money is forthcoming at all from the fishing carried on in these
boats. I have already said that I don't think the boats are fished so
as to clear money, and consequently the men cannot have money.
They are generally very poor and in debt.
11,893. Do you mean that almost all, the men in Scalloway are
so?-All the fishermen that are in the boats, except one boat's
crew that stands on a different footing from the others.
11,894. Do you ascribe that to the system which prevails here, or
to any fault on the part of the men?-I can scarcely ascribe it to
the fault of the men; I would say it was their misfortune. They are
old and some of them infirm, and they cannot fish like stout,
healthy men.
11,895. Have many cases come under your observation in
which women who knit have been in distress for want of food in
consequence of the way in which the hosiery is paid for?- I have
not generally heard them blame the hosiery system for it exactly,
but just the want of general employment.
11,896. I suppose most of the women here knit more or less?-
Yes; I believe the greater part of them do.
11,897. And I suppose you are aware that knitting is almost
invariably paid for in goods and not in money?-In listening to
the examinations here to-day, I have heard conflicting accounts
about that. One woman said they got no money, and another said
she got as high as 6s. and 8s. at a time.
11,898. But even that woman admitted that the rule was to pay in
goods, although she got money when she asked for it?-I believe it
is the rule to pay in goods.
11,899. Have you had any experience as to the effect of that upon
the female portion of the population?-I think most of them that I
am acquainted with act very judiciously notwithstanding.
11,900. They are able to keep themselves notwithstanding that
they do not get payment for their labour except in goods?-Of
course they do keep themselves; but they are not so well off as
they would require to be. If they could get part of the payment in
cash, it would no doubt be a great advantage to them.
11,901. Do you think they would make a good use of the money if
they had it?-There may be exceptions, but generally, I think, they
are a provident people.
11,902. Do you think the women who are paid in goods for their
hosiery sometimes get things which they do not need, simply
because they are asked to take shop goods in payment instead of
money?-I am not personally aware of that. I heard one woman
say to-day that she sometimes had a good deal of things lying on
hand; but I don't know of that being the case from my own
experience.
11,903. The people have not complained to you with regard to
it?-They have not. Some of them have said to me they would
like to have money, while others have said they were quite well
satisfied with goods.
11,904. Is there any other statement you can make with regard to
the subject of this inquiry?-I am not aware that there is. I may
say that I am in no way obliged either to the hosiery merchants or
to the fishcurers. My living comes quite from another quarter; but
I must say, when I am asked, that I believe we have honest men in
both departments of business, both as buyers of hosiery and as
curers of fish. I don't think any country will produce men of better
principles, so far as my knowledge goes.
11,905. Does it follow from that that the system which they work
is a good one?-No; I would not say that. I should like to see a
better system brought in, if it could work; and I believe the
merchants themselves would be glad to see a ready-money system
introduced if it were possible; but the difficulty is to see how it can
be got to act. We have hosiery merchants here, such as Mr.
Harcus, who have tried it, and who have had to give it up, because
they found it would not work.
[Page 293]
Scalloway, January 22, 1872, CHARLES NICHOLSON, examined.
11,906. You are a merchant in Scalloway?-I have been. I retired
from business a year ago. My son, Gideon Nicholson, my
daughter, Mrs. Tait, and another daughter's husband, David
Dalgleish, succeeded me.
11,907. How long were you in business in Scalloway before you
retired?-About 25 years.
11,908. Were you engaged in business both as a fishcurer and as a
draper and general merchant?-Yes.
11,909. How many boats did you generally employ in the haaf
fishing?-About ten or twelve boats for the ling fishing in the
summer time. In some years the numbers differed.
11,910. Were these boats generally manned from Scalloway and
the district round about?-No, there were very few of them from
Scalloway. There were some from Maywick, parish of Bigton,
about twelve miles south, and some from the island of Havera.
11,911. Had you a fishing station there?-The fish could not be
cured there, as there was not a beach for that purpose, and they had
all to be brought to Burra to be cured. For the last two or three
years they have been brought to Scalloway, and cured on beaches
here.
11,912. Were you tacksman of any properties in that district?-
No, I never was tacksman; but the proprietor, Mr. Bruce of
Simbister, held me accountable for the rents of the fishermen
employed by me. He holds us accountable for them yet. It is in
Messrs. Hay's hands just now, because Mr. Bruce does not act for
himself.
11,913. In what way do you arrange about the rents of the
fishermen whom you employ?-I have seen that when a fisherman
was £10 or £20 in my debt I still considered that I had to pay his
rent for him to the proprietor. I have paid the proprietor from £60
to £80 a year when the fishermen were perhaps due me £100 or
£200.
11,914. Was that done under an obligation which had been
undertaken by you to the proprietor?-No; I never undertook
the thing, but I always did it for the poor men.
11,915. Was there a kind of understanding between you and the
fishermen that you should advance the money for their rent?-
There was not much understanding about it, but I always did it,
and it is done at the present time.
11,916. Is that done for the accommodation of the proprietor, or
for the accommodation of the men?-It accommodates both
parties. Many of the men could not pay their rent themselves, and
what were they to do if it was not paid for them?-Their corn and
crop would have to be taken from them, and they would have had
to come to me for more meal next summer. Therefore it was
better for me to allow them to keep their crops and to pay their
rents for them.
11,917. In what way is the payment made? Is it done by you
handing the money to the men with which to go and pay their rent
themselves, or do you put it down against them in their account,
and send the proprietor a cheque for the sum?-Often before the
time when it should be settled I pay it to Mr. Bruce or to Messrs.
Hay.
11,918. Do you often pay the whole rent of the men in your
employment, to Mr. Bruce, in one sum?-Yes, or rather to Mr.
Bruce's factor. When the men had anything particular to say to
their proprietor they would come along to me for the cash, and
take it to him; but with regard to the body of the men, I never put
them to that trouble. It was some trouble for them to go from
Scalloway to Lerwick, and then to travel home age in.
11,919. Do you get separate receipts for all the men, and give them
to them at settlement?-Yes.
11,920. Is the rent generally paid on their account before
settlement?-Very often it is, or about that time. The term for
the payment of their rent is at Martinmas, upon 11th November,
and it is generally same time after that before we commence to
settle with the fishermen. We must know what price we are to
get in the market for the fish before we know what we are to give
them, or how we are to settle with them.
11,921. What sum did you pay to the proprietor in that way during
the last two or three years you were in business?-I should say that
about £60, or from £60 to £70, would be about the usual thing.
11,922. Would the amount of each man's rent be about £4 or
£5?-Yes, perhaps some higher, and some a little lower.
11,923. Then perhaps twelve or fifteen men would have their rents
paid in that way?-Yes.
11,924. But that would only be a portion of the men you were
employing?-Yes.
11,925. If you had ten or twelve boats, you would have fifty or
sixty men employed in them?-No. Some of them are small boats
that fish close to the shore, with perhaps three men in them, or two
men and two boys.
11,926. Then you might employ perhaps thirty men and boys
altogether?-Yes.
11,927. Would one half of these men not be tenants at all?-Most
of them were tenants of Mr. Bruce.
11,928. Were they under any obligation to fish for you?-No.
11,929. Could they have engaged with any other person if they had
liked?-Yes.
11,930. Have you objected to pay the rent for any one of these men
when he was considerably in your debt?-No. If I paid for one, I
paid for all. I have paid rent for a man who was between £20 and
£30 in my debt.
11,931. Does the landlord give you any return for these advances
which you make to him?-No.
11,932. Is it not a considerable advantage to him to have his rent
made secure in that way?-There is no doubt about it.
11,933. But don't you get anything from him even in the shape of a
favour?-No; I never asked it, and never got it.
11,934. Have you any fishing station on Mr. Bruce's property?-
No. The fishermen on the island of Havera cure their fish in the
island, and that is on his property, but I have no concern with
anything else.
11,935. Do they cure their fish themselves, and sell them to
you?-They cure them on the island, and send them to Scalloway,
and I sell them for them.
11,936. Have they an arrangement peculiar to themselves about
their fish?-No, there is no peculiar arrangement. Their fish have
always been under their own command, and I could not sell them
without their consent, and I have lost considerably by that.
11,937. In selling their fish do you act as their agent?-Yes.
11,938. Do you charge a commission for that?-I never had so
much good sense as to ask a commission; I did it for nothing.
11,939. You sold them for them, and I suppose they took a
quantity of goods from you when they wanted them?-Yes.
They took lines and hooks, and bread and clothes, and such
things as they required.
11,940. Did they get all their supplies from you?-I think they got
the most part of them from me.
11,941. How many people live at Havera?-I think there are four
families, but I am not sure.
11,942. Do the other people on Mr. Bruce's estate who fish for
you, and whose rent you pay, deal entirely in your shop for their
supplies?-I think the most part of them do.
11,943. Is that one reason why you pay their rents for them?-I
suppose so.
11,944. Do you find that these men are generally in your debt at
settlement?-Only some of them. There are some of the men who
have always plenty of money to get, but there are others who have
commonly been behind.
11,945. Are more than one half of them commonly behind?-No.
There are more than one half of them who always have money to
get.
11,946. Still there are some of them who are usually a good bit
behind?-Yes; but I hope they will get and be able to pay it off.
Some of them are men whose [Page 294] sons are willing now to
pay for their fathers, and it is a great matter to see that.
11,947. The debts you refer to have been incurred for supplies
of hooks and lines, and meal and other things required for the
family?-Yes; chiefly for meal. Of course, they get hooks and
lines also but they require a great deal of bread and meal.
11,948. Do those men who fish for you own their own boats, or do
the boats belong to you?-The boats are all their own.
11,949. Are you not a boat-owner?-Not with these men.
11,950. Have you some boats here?-Yes; I had too many, and got
very little profit from them.
11,951. The boats you had at Scalloway were hired out by you?-
Yes; it got the name of hire, but I never received it. The nominal
hire is 5s. per man. If it carries three men it is 15s. and if four
men, £1. That is for three or four months in the year.
11,952. These are small boats?-Yes.
11,953. Is that the kind of boat that is commonly in use in
Scalloway?-Yes.
11,954. Are there none of the six-oared boats in use here?-There
are none in use here just now. Even in summer it is the small
boats that are used here. They fish near the shore and the small
boats are more handy than the big ones.
11,955. Then there is no haaf fishing from Scalloway?-No.
11,956. Are all the fish that you cure, the produce of that inshore
fishing?-No; I have vessels that go to Faroe.
11,957. But you have no deep-sea fishing for ling?-No. I should
not say that I never get the hire, because in some few cases I have
got a little for it.
11,958. Then is it the case that you must look to the profit you
make from the fish for the only remuneration you get for the use of
these boats?-It would have been better for me if I had bought few
or no fish in Scalloway, because the people here cannot get so
much as will keep them alive. As has already been stated, the men
in Scalloway are old men, who are not able to fish much.
11,959. How many tons of fish did you sell from that part of your
fishing last year?-I am not able to answer that exactly just now,
but there are commonly from 20 to 25 tons that come from
Dunrossness.
11,960. And as much from Scalloway?-No; all that are got here
is a mere trifle, and then we buy some in winter and spring from
different quarters.
11,961. Do you also buy some in summer from other places too?-
A few lots, not much.
11,962. Do the Burra men come and sell you a few lots in
summer?-As little as possible.
11,963. Do you not like to buy from them?-I don't like to see
men leaving their masters. My men might do the same.
11,964. I suppose your men do sell to other people's factors
occasionally?-I don't think there are many men among them
who don't do that.
11,965. Is it when they want a little ready money that they do
that?-They can get it from me when they ask for it.
11,966. Perhaps, if a man is a little in your debt, he will not care to
come and ask you for ready money?-There are men who are due
me £5 and £10 and £15, and I just pay him for his fish over the
counter when he brings them.
11,967. That is for the winter and spring fishing?-Yes. I would
be happy if he could make as much from his fish as would keep
him alive, but the worst of it is that these men cannot do that.
11,968. When you pay them money over the counter for their fish,
do they generally pay some of it over the counter for supplies?-
Yes; if they can buy articles as cheap from me as from another,
they always do that. I have seldom seen them do anything else;
but if they want a little money for any particular purpose, they can
get it for that purpose.
11,969. They may need it for rent, and they will perhaps take it
away to pay to their landlord?-That is not very often the case. If
they have a house from another proprietor I very often have to pay
the rent for them.
11,970. Do you lay out a good deal of money in that way?-Rather
too much.
11,971. Do you sometimes pay other debts that are due by the men
as well as their rent?-I suppose most of their debts are with me,
except their rents.
11,972. Therefore most of their money matters are transacted
through you?-I think so.
11,973. In fact, you are a sort of banker for the place?-I don't
know that; it is very little that I get to bank.
11,974. When a man is well to do and has a balance to receive,
does he sometimes leave it in your hands?-If they thought I was
ill off for money they would do that. One year I lost about £200
on the price of ling, and rather than see me ill off for money one
and another of them who had money came and offered it to me.
11,975. Do you mean that they left what was due to them on their
fishing in your hands?-Yes; and they offered me besides money
which they had laid up in former years, if it could do me any good
and keep me going on.
11,976. Do you not think the men would be much wiser to take
their own money and spend it as they wanted? Would they not
understand the value of the money better in that way, and take
better care of it?-They take their money at the end of every
season.
11,977. But in the meantime they have spent perhaps three-fourths
or four-fifths of all their earnings?-Of course they have been
lifting their lines and hooks and everything of that sort, but they
have never wanted money when they asked for it, even although
they had nothing in my hands. Sometimes they asked for it to buy
a cow or some particular thing, and they sometimes got as much
from me as £4 or £5.
11,978. But you don't give it to them unless they want something
particular, and mention to you what it is?-No.
11,979. Do you think it is a good system for men to leave all their
affairs in your hands?-I don't know; I did not want them to do so
unless they liked.
11,980. Would not the merchant require to be a very honest man
when he is so much trusted?-He would indeed.
11,981. And a man who was disposed to deceive the fishermen
who trusted him would have very ample opportunities to do so?-
He would.
11,982. I suppose that has been done in a few exceptional cases in
Shetland?-No doubt it has.
11,983. Do you think a fisherman who lives under that system is
an independent person?-A man who has plenty of money to serve
his purpose is as independent a man, or he should be, as any.
11,984. Do you think the fishermen have plenty of money to serve
their purposes?-Not in general; but there are a few who have it.
11,985. Do you think they might all have it?-I don't think so.
11,986. Is that owing to bad seasons, or owing to a bad system, or
what?-It is sometimes owing to all these things together.
11,987. I suppose all the men you employ, and some others
besides, keep accounts in your books for the supplies which
they require for their families and for the fishing?-Yes.
11,988. Each man has a ledger account?-Yes.
11,989. And although you are out of the business, you are still
intimately acquainted with the way in which it is conducted?-
Yes.
11,990. Do you think that one half of the men at this settlement
have a balance to get in money?-I think most of the ling
fishermen had, but the cod fishermen were much more in debt.
11,991. You had not many ling fishermen?-No, only a few boats.
11,992. It is the Dunrossness men you speak of as the ling
fishermen?-Yes.
11,993. The Scalloway men are not ling fishermen?-No. I think
there was only one boat that went from Scalloway.
[Page 295]
11,994. Is the business still carried on in your name?-No; it is
carried on in the name of Nicholson & Co.
11,995. Have you any interest in it at all?-No.
11,996. It is practically the same business, however, which you
carried on?-Yes.
11,997. When you carried on business, were you in the practice of
buying hosiery?-Very little. I never took it at all, except when
the poor people were starving and in want of bread. They
sometimes came to me and said they wanted bread, and could not
get it in Lerwick, and I gave it to them.
11,998. Have you taken the goods they have got for their hosiery in
Lerwick and given them provisions instead?-Not very often, but I
have done that out of compassion.
11,999. Have you sometimes given them money in that way?-I
would not have seen them at a loss for a shilling if they wanted it
for any particular purpose.
12,000. Have you sometimes taken their lines from them which
they got from the Lerwick merchants?-No; I don't remember
doing that.
12,001. Have you been asked to do that sometimes?-I don't think
so.
12,002. Have you not been asked to give them provisions for
lines?-No.
12,003 Was it mostly cotton and soft goods or tea that you took
from them?-It was cotton and soft goods, not tea. They had a
chance of getting a little meal and potatoes in country places for
their tea, and they did not require to come to me with it.
12,004. What kind of price did you allow them for these things?-
I allowed them the same price as I sold such articles at in my own
shop; but they had paid a higher price for them in Lerwick. When
they brought the goods to me, I saw they were not equal to mine at
the same price.
12,005. So that you generally buy these cottons at a lower price
than they have been charged at in Lerwick, but at the same price
that you were in the habit of selling them for here?-Yes.
12,006. The knitters therefore would be losers nominally by the
bargain?-Yes; but it was not much that they brought to me in that
way-it was hardly worth mentioning.
12,007. What would be the difference in price on a yard of
cotton?-Perhaps 1d.
12,008. Did you find that there was always that difference?-I
don't exactly remember; but I remember sometimes looking at
the articles, and seeing that they were inferior to mine at the same
price. That was very easily seen.
12,009. Do the women sometimes object to give you the goods at a
lower price than they had paid for them?-No. It was through
necessity they came to me with them, and they always felt very
grateful that they could get bread in exchange.
12,010. Has that system gone on at times until now?-Yes, at
times.
12,011. You have some vessels employed in the Faroe fishing?-
Yes, there are two.
12,012. Are these still in your hands, or have you handed them
over to the company?-I have handed them over to the company,
as agents.
12,013. But they are still your property?-Yes; at least they are
partly mine. There are some other people who have shares in
them.
12,014. Do the men who are employed in these Faroe vessels
generally belong to Scalloway and the neighbourhood?-No;
only a few of them. The others come from different parts of the
country; some from as far west as Sandness, and others from as far
north as Delting, and so on.
12,015. Have these men accounts opened in your shop for their
outfits?-Yes.
12,016. And also for supplies to their families?-The young men
don't require supplies.
12,017. But if there are any of them married men, they will have
accounts, and their families get supplies from the company's shop
during their absence?-Yes.
12,018. Then there is a settlement with them at the end of the
season?-Yes. As soon as we can know what the fish are to bring
in the market there is settlement made.
12,019. Have you a written agreement with these men?-Yes; it is
written on stamped paper and each man signs it.
12,020. Have you made your agreements for 1872?-They are
written and are being filled up now.
Scalloway, January 22, 1872, DAVID DALGLEISH, examined.
12,021. You are now a partner of the firm of Nicholson & Co.,
Scalloway?-I am.
12,022. You have been present and heard the evidence of Mr.
Charles Nicholson?-Yes.
12,023. Have you anything to add to it, or anything additional to
suggest?-No. He has had long experience in the business, and I
have had very little. I have only been in it twelve months, since
Mr. Nicholson retired.
12,024. You have been shown certain returns with regard both to
the home and Faroe fishing, which you have been asked to fill up
and return to me. You will do so at your earliest convenience,
with the assistance of Mr. Nicholson if necessary?-Yes.
12,025. I see a number of fishermen present; if there are any of
them who wish to make any statement to me I shall be glad to hear
them. [No answer.] If no one wishes to give any further evidence,
I adjourn the sittings at this place until further notice.
<Adjourned>.