10,247. Each fisherman has his account separately kept in it?-
Yes.
10,248. I suppose few of them care to keep passbooks?-Some of
them keep pass-books over the whole season, but others of them
do not. Here [showing account in shop ledger] is a sample of the
transactions for this season. The amount of that account is carried
into the ledger, but the credits due to the man do not appear in the
shop ledger.
10,249. Do you generally find the men applying to you for cash
early in the year, before the fishing begins?-Not often. If they
are requiring a few shillings they may ask for it, and get it, but I
cannot say that they ever ask for much.
10,250. I see here an entry on January 5, 'To biscuit, 1s. 2d.:' what
quantity of biscuit would that be?-I suppose it would be 4 lbs. of
what are called cabin biscuit.
10,251. 'Tobacco, 1s. 1d?' -That would be a 1/4 lb. at 31/2d. an
ounce and the man got 1d. off by taking a quantity.
10,252. 'Tea, 11d.,:' is that the best quality of tea?-Yes. We
have cheaper tea than that at 8d. and 10d.
10,253. Are Shetland people, I understand, are very particular
about their tea?-Yes; and they are very good judges of it.
10,254. I see another entry on October, 28 ' To meal, 2s. 10d.?'-
That would be 16 lbs., or half a lispund.
10,255. On October 5 the meal was 5s, 9d., so that there had been
a fall between that date and October 28?-Yes. There is often a
rise and fall in the price of meal.
10,256. Where do you get your meal?-Generally from Aberdeen,
from Glenny & Cruickshank, and Mr. Mess, and Mr. Walker, and
Mr. Tulloch, all in Aberdeen. We generally get our flour from
Messrs. Tod, Stockbridge.
10,257. I see an entry, 'To meal per meal-book:' is that a separate
book which you keep for meal?-Yes; it is a book we generally
keep in the cellar, where the meal is weighed out. The meal is
marked there at the time the people get it, and then it is entered as
a whole in the ledger.
10,258. That is done to save repetition of entries in the lodger?-
Yes. This [showing] is one of the accounts referred to by Mr.
Sandison, kept by six men on the station as a company, and it is in
that account that we give them credit for 2s. per 20 weighs. We
put it to their credit there, and then charge the men only for the
balance in their accounts.
10,259. How is that credited in their account?-It has not been
done yet. The crew have not settled.
10,260. But how would it be entered?-Just for an allowance.
10,261. You take the whole quantity of fish delivered, and
calculate what the allowance is upon that?-Yes; on the quantities
delivered of cod, tusk, and ling. We don't allow it upon the saith.
10,262. Is the saith an inferior item in the season's fishing?-It has
been rather low for some years back until this year, but it has been
rather better.
10,263. I see, under January 12, in Andrew Mouat's account,
'Paraffin oil, 5d.' How much oil was that?-About 51/2 gills, I
suppose.
10,264. What is the selling price of paraffin oil at your store?-2s.
a gallon.
10,265. How many gills are in a gallon?-32.
10,266. So that the price which Mouat paid for his oil was a little
more than 2s. 6d. a gallon?- Yes, but the bottles are not all alike.
Some may hold 6 gills, and some only 51/2. We generally fill the
bottle for 5d. when they bring it to us.
10,267. Where do you get your paraffin oil?-From Young's
Paraffin Light Co.
10,268. Do you generally import it once a year or so in the
beginning of winter?-No; we generally get 1 or 2 or 3 casks by
the steamer now and then, as we require it.
10,269. When did you last get a supply of oil from that
company?-I don't know if we had any last season at all;
because we got 3 or 4 casks early in the spring, which served
us throughout the season.
10,270. What was the price of it?-I think the last we bought from
Young & Co. was 1s. 5d. or 1s. 6d.-I think 1s. 5d. per gallon; but
then there is double freight to pay on it.
10,271. Where do Young & Co. deliver it?-At Granton.
10,272. What is the freight from there?-I think it is nearly 2d. per
gallon; but we have had the oil much dearer from Young & Co.
than 1s. 5d.
10,273. Have you ever got any from Rowatt & Son?-We have
had oil from a person named Williamson, but not direct. I think
the last we got from him was through an agent in Leith.
10,274. Where is Williamson's place?-I cannot say; only saw the
name on the cask. We got it from Mr. J.B. Leask.
10,275. Do either of these books which you have produced contain
the accounts of persons employed in your curing business?-Yes.
10,276. Do you contract for curing at Baltasound [Page 250] and
Haroldswick?-No; we employ the people ourselves; and their
accounts are entered generally in the Baltasound book.
10,277. I see an account of Thomas Mouat, beach boy, February
17, 1870, 'To Baltasound shop account £2, 0s. 3d., by fee £1, 10s.,
by balance to account, 10s. 3d.,' which is carried to next account,
and he is charged 6d of interest on it. Then November 17, 'To
Baltasound shop account £1, 10s. 8d., by beach fee £1, 15s., by
balance to account 6s. 5d.' Has he been working for you this
year?-No.
10,278. Has that balance of 6s. 5d. been settled?-No.
10,279. Where is the boy now?-He is working as a blacksmith.
10,280. Do you charge these boys interest when they are in
debt?-Yes, we have done so; but only for the last two years.
10,281. Has that been with the view of reducing their balance?-It
will rather increase them.
10,282. But has it been done in order to lead them to incur less
debt?-I wish it would; but in many cases I believe they cannot
help themselves. It is not their wish to incur debt
10,283. Does it generally happen that a beach boy is in your debt
at the end of the season?-Not generally.
10,284. I see that John Miller has a balance of 4s. against him in
1870, and a balance of 9d. to get in 1871?-Yes.
10,285. Robert Gardiner has a balance of £1, 19s., against him in
1870. Has he not settled that yet?-No; he is in Glasgow.
10,286. Thomas Abernethy, beach boy, got a fee of £2. 10s., and
15s. for drying fish for 30 days, and he had to receive a balance of
1s. 01/2d. at the end of the year?-Yes.
10,287. John Jamieson, beach boy, had a beach fee of £2, 5s., 39
days drying fish at 5d.-16s. 3d. and there is a balance of 11s. 11d.
against him upon his shop account?-Yes.
10,288. Nicol Thomson had a beach fee of £1, and he had a
balance of 5s. 3d. against him for 1870, and has since got supplies
to the amount of 5s. 61/2d?-Yes. He was only employed for part of
the season.
10,289. Was he working for you last year?-No.
10,290. John Harrison has a balance in his favour of 2s. 101/2d.?-
Yes.
10,291. Archibald Thomson, in 1870, had a balance against him of
17s. He settled again the day before yesterday, and got a balance
in cash of £2, 6s. 31/2 d?-Yes. He was a fisherman last year.
10,292. He had £9, 1s. to get for his fish?-Yes; and he had credit
with another boat. He went with one boat for a time in place of
another man who was laid up.
10,293. In the account of Charles Sandison, fish-curer, his shop
account at Uyea Sound was £3, 2s. 11d. in 1870, and £3, 11s.
101/2d. at Baltasound, and there also a balance of rent of 11s. 6d.
charged against him. The balance against him at November 12,
1869, and carried to new account, is £4, 5s. 31/2d. The interest on
that is 4s. 3d., and the balance against him on March 18, 1871, was
£9, 8s. 51/2d.?-Yes.
10,294. He has since put in £6, 3s. 9d. and £1 to his credit, the first
being the price of a cow, and the other a payment made by his son,
or carried from his son's account into his?-Yes, by his order.
10,295. That was done with the view of reducing his debt?-Yes;
the son was living with the father, and it was done to reduce his
father's debt.
10,296. This account has not been settled yet?-No, and this
year's rent has not been debited to the account. We have not yet
taken it out of the land ledger.
10,297. Has he been working for you?-No. He is an old man,
and I think his son intends to take the farm, and to join him.
10,298. There is £4, 12s. 6d. of rent debited to him in 1870. To
whom was that rent payable?-To Spence & Co. That is one of
the farms included in their lease.
10,299. In the account of Thomas Peterson he is credited with a
beach fee of £5, and he had a balance against him in 1869 in 6s.
101/2d. The balance in his favour at settling in 1871 was 1s.
41/2d., but in that year he had been fishing, not regularly, but
occasionally, with certain boats?-Yes. He has been fishing
regularly this year, but his account is not settled yet.
10,300. This account [showing] contains the total beach fees paid
by you in 1869 and 1870, being £91, 12s. 8d. in 1869 and £115,
12s. 8d. in 1870?-Yes.
10,301. What are the entries on page 251?-That is a page which I
am using as a cash-book in settling up with the men at the present
settlement.
10,302. It shows the amount paid in cash to each man?-Yes.
10,303. The total is £162, 10s. 21/2d., which been paid to thirty-two
men?-Yes.
10,304. That does not show the men whose balances were the
other way?-No.
10,305. Would there be a larger number whose balances were the
other way?-There would be great deal more money out, whether
the number of men were larger or not.
10,306. Have you any dealings in hosiery at your shop?-We do
very little in that way.
10,307. When you do deal with a woman for hosiery, do you open
an account in her name?-Sometimes. Of course if she gets
worsted from our shop we have to debit her with it, and see that
she returns it.
10,308. Does she generally take out goods for the amount of her
knitting?-Sometimes.
10 309. Have you a special book for these accounts?-No, not
now.
10,310. Did you use to have a woman's book for them?-Yes; we
had a small ledger when we commenced. It was not exactly a
woman's book, but the hosiery accounts were generally kept in it.
10,311. Did it contain accounts for butter and eggs?-No; we did
not keep accounts for them. Of course if a man comes in with 16
or 20 or 30 or 40 lbs. of butter, that goes to his credit if he wishes
it to be settled for in that way.
10,312. You do not take any share in the management of the shop
at Haroldswick?-I sometimes take a little.
10,313. I have been told to-day that Mrs. Spence's hosiery
purchases are settled for with goods got in the shop there?-Yes.
10,314. Are Mrs. Spence's purchases of hosiery and worsted
made by her on account of the firm?-No. She generally sells for
herself what hosiery she buys.
10,315. Then, when the hosiery is paid for by means of goods
supplied from the shop at Haroldswick, how does that enter the
books of the firm?-She is just debited with the amount paid to
so and so.
10,316. Are these goods debited to her at cost price?-No, at retail
price.
10,317. And the firm has no connection with the purchase or sale
of that hosiery?-No.
10,318. Where do you get your supplies of tea?-We get them
from different places.
10,319. Do you get any from R. & C. Robertson, Lerwick?-No,
I don't think we have got 20 lbs. of tea from them since we
commenced business in 1868. We get our tea from Aberdeen,
Glasgow, and London.
Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, WILLIAM WILLIAMSON, examined.
10,320. You are a fisherman at Snarravoe, and hold a bit of land
on Lord Zetland's property?-Yes.
10,321. To whom do you pay your rent?-To Mr. Mouat, the
commissioner for Mr. Hay, and Mr. Hay is the commissioner for
the Earl.
10,322. Does Mr. Mouat enter the rent in your account?-Yes.
10,323. Do you fish for Spence & Co?-Yes. I have fished for
them since they became a company, and before that I fished for
Hay & Co.
[Page 251]
10,324. Are you quite at liberty to fish for any person you
please?-I suppose I am.
10,325. And to deal at any shop you please?-Yes.
10,326. Do you generally deal in Spence & Co.'s shop?-Yes,
because I find I am as well served there as I would be at any other
place.
10.327. Snarravoe is in the south of the island, and you go to the
shop at Uyeasound?-Yes.
10,328. Is that the nearest shop to you?-There are some small
shops nearer, but I find that I am as well served at that shop as I
would be at any other shop I could go to. I have very little
dealings in any other shop.
10,329. Do you keep a pass-book?-I had a passbook at one time,
but it was not kept regularly, and I don't have one now. I found
that the keeping of it made very little difference.
10,330. Were you ever employed in fishing at a fixed price for the
whole fish taken during the season?-Yes; but we were generally
paid it little more than the fixed price.
10,331. When were you engaged in that way?-About a year or
two years ago by Spence & Co. We engaged at 7s., and we were
paid it few pence more-I think 3d. more.
10,332. Did you ask for that?-No; they gave it freely, because the
fish turned out a little better than they expected at the time when
we made the engagement for the fishing.
10,333. If they had turned out a little worse, would the men have
taken less for their fish?-No doubt they would have looked for
their bargain; but it would have been just in them to have taken it
little less in that case, as well as to get a little more when the price
was high.
10,334. Do you think the men in this district would be content to
have a bargain of that sort as a rule?-I don't know; because
sometimes the markets go up, and the men may get a little more
for their fish if the price is settled at the end of the season.
10,335. Therefore you think it is better to have the price fixed at
the end of the season, when you see how the markets have turned
out?-Sometimes it would be.
10,336. But if the markets were to fall towards the end of the year,
might the fisherman not gain something if he had engaged at a
fixed price?-He would; and that was the kind of engagements we
had in the herring fishing in Hay & Co.'s time.
10,337. Have you gone to the herring fishing?-Yes, but we were
always paid a little more than we agreed for. We were paid 10s. or
11s., or more, per cran.
10,338. Were you always successful at it?-Only sometimes. That
fishing has been a failure for the last few years.
10,339. But you had no arrangement there except to get so much
per cran for all the herrings you took?-That was all.
10,340. Were you running an account in the shop while the fishing
was going on?-Yes.
10,341. Don't you think you would be better off to have your
money paid down once a month or so, as the fish are delivered,
and be able to pay for your purchases as you get them?-I don't
know. I suppose the goods are all the same price, whether I pay
for them when I get them or not.
10,342. Don't you think you would be able to buy your goods
cheaper if you could pay for them at the time?-I don't know.
Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, PETER SMITH, examined.
10,343. Are you a fisherman at Westing?-I was formerly a
fisherman, but it is about twenty years ago since I gave it up. I
am now curing fish for Messrs. Spence & Co. at Westing.
10,344. Do you cure by contract?-Yes. I get 10s. per ton of dry
fish for my trouble.
10,345. Do you employ a number of beach boys and men in the
curing?-Yes; about eight. They get fees varying from 30s. up to
above
10,346. Do you keep a book in which you enter the payments you
make to them?-No. I do not keep any book except a pass-book,
in which I enter the fish that are delivered to me.
10,347. Are the wages of these boys paid by you?-Not wholly by
me, but I pay them in part.
10,348. But you are their employer, and are liable to them for their
wages?-Yes.
10,349. Do they take part of their wages in goods from the
shop?-When they want them in that way, they get a line for
their money to the shop.
10,350. Do you give them a line when they want goods?-Yes. I
give them a line stating the amount that Mr. Sandison is to give
them, either in goods or in money.
10,351. Is that entered against you in the books at Uyea Sound?-
Yes.
10,352. Before paying them their wages, do you ascertain how
much has been taken out by them in that way?-No.
10,353. Then how is the balance of their wages settled? Is it paid
directly by the company?-It is paid by the company. I state in my
line what fee I give them; and what they may give them over and
above that I cannot tell. I am not responsible for that.
10,354. The line you give to the company does not state so much
money, 5s. or 10s., that is to be allowed to them in goods or in
cash, at a particular time, but it simply states the fee that you have
agreed to give them at the end of the year?-It states the balance
they have not actually got from me. If they want a certain amount
at any time, I give them a line; or if they ask the money from me,
then I give it to them, and they get a line to Mr. Sandison for the
balance.
10,355. Do you sometimes give them money yourself?-Yes;
when they ask for money they get it.
10,356. But more commonly they get a line to Mr. Sandison for
goods?-More commonly for the greater share of it.
10,357. How many lines do they get in the course of a year? Is it
one or more?-Generally one at the end of the season, when the
fish have been dried.
10,358. Then how do they get their goods in the course of the
season?-I cannot tell as to that, for I don't know.
10,359. But how does Mr. Sandison know how far to give them
credit in the course of the season, before he gets the line from you,
which you say you give him at the end?-Mr. Sandison no doubt
knows what the amount of a beach fee will be; but I cannot say as
to that. I am not responsible for any excess he may give them.
10,360. Then all you do with regard to these out-takes at the shop
is to give the boy a line at the end of the season, telling Mr.
Sandison what the agreed-on fee was?-Yes, and what balance I
have not already paid him.
10,361. And in that line you make no mention of what he has got
at the shop, because you don't know?-No.
10,362. In that way of working, is there not a risk of the boy asking
more at the end of the season than is really due to him, and of your
overpaying him?-Mr. Sandison might overpay him, but I could
not.
10,363. Why?-Because I fix the fee, and I know what I have
given him, and then I only give a line to Mr. Sandison to pay the
balance.
10,364. But he might have got the whole amount of his fee in
out-takes from Mr. Sandison, before you gave him payment in
cash at the end of the season?-He might; but I am generally well
acquainted with the boys, and have confidence in them that they
will not run an account of that kind.
10,365. Suppose a boy were to come to you in July, and asked for
5s. in cash, would you be likely to give it to him?-Yes, I would
give it.
10,366. Might it not happen that at that very time he had run up an
account in the shop for £2 or £3?-If he did so, I would expect Mr.
Sandison to make me acquainted with it.
[Page 252]
10,367. Did Mr. Sandison ever give you intimation that a
particular boy was in debt to such an amount?-No.
10,368. So that these boys can get a cash advance from you, and
credit at the shop at Uyea Sound at the same time?-Yes, if they
choose. That might be done for a certain time, but I don't think it
could go on very long without being known.
10,369. I suppose it is not very likely that you would give him
much money?-He could get it all in money if he asked for it
when the work is done, but not before.
10,370. But you would not pay him the money until you had
ascertained the amount of his account at the shop?-I never
asked that.
10,371. Is your work done about September?-Yes.
10,372. Suppose in September a boy were to come and ask you for
the whole of his fee in money, would you pay it down to him?-I
have done that.
10,373. Did he tell you that he had no account at the shop?-Yes;
and that proved to be the case.
10,374. Has that happened often?-Not often. It has happened
once with regard to the whole, and oftener with regard to a part.
10,375. Have you an account at Uyea Sound for supplies to
yourself?-Yes.
10,376. The contract price of your curing is entered in that account
against your supplies?-Yes; and I am paid the balance in cash.
10,377. And out of that balance you have to pay any balances that
are due to the beach boys?-Yes.
10,378. How much money will you require to get at the end of the
season, in order to settle with your beach boys?-Generally the
money which the beach boys get from me is paid to them during
the season.
10,379. When do you settle at the shop?-In December or January.
I have not settled yet for last year.
10,380. Therefore you have not settled with the beach boys?-All
the beach boys are all settled with in November.
10,381. How much money did you require last November in order
to settle with them?-It is Mr. Sandison who settles with them at
the end of the season, and I don't know how much money they had
to get.
10,382. Do you generally have the same beach boys for some years
in succession?-Yes. I have had some for six years, and some for
shorter periods.
10,383. What proportion of your payment for curing do you get
in money? Do you get most of it at the end of the season?-
Sometimes. In some years we have to buy a good deal of meal and
other things; but in a year such as the present, when we have had a
good crop, I get the most of it in money. Besides, I can get money
any time when I ask for it. I have never been refused it within the
last twenty years.
Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, JAMES HARPER, examined.
10,384. You are a fisherman to Messrs. Spence & Co. at
Haroldswick?-Yes. I fish at Norwick, but the books are at
Haroldswick.
10,385. Have you a bit of land from Spence & Co?-Yes.
10,386. You pay your rent to them, and deal with them at
their shop at Haroldswick?-Yes, I get all my goods there.
10,387. Do you deal anywhere else?-No.
10,388. Why?-For want of money.
10,389. How do you want money?-Because I don't have it.
10,390. Have you had bad seasons?-I never was in debt before I
came to Spence. & Co.
10,391. How did you get into debt with them?-From bad seasons
in the first place, and from overpriced goods. Meal is over-priced,
for one thing. My father has dealt twelve years with ready money;
and I have seen the advantage he has got by it, and what I have
lost.
10,392. Who is your father?-William Harper: he is a fisherman
too; he has been master of a boat for about forty years to Mr.
Spence.
10,393. How do you know that the meal is over-priced which you
get from Messrs. Spence's shop?-The first meal I got from
Spence & Co. was one boll, when I began to fish for them four
years ago. My father got one half of the sack, and I got the other: I
was charged 27s., and he was charged 24s. 6d.
10,394. Why was that?-I had nothing to give Spence & Co., but
my father had ready money. That was in the spring before I
commenced to fish.
10,395. You did not settle for the meal until the end of the year?-
No.
10,396. Consequently they were long in getting their money from
you?-Yes.
10,397. Was it not quite fair that they should get little more for
lying out of their money all that time?-Yes; but 2s. 6d. was too
much to charge for interest. That was only on meal, but I could
make more profit on groceries and soft goods too.
10,398. Have you anything more to say about the meal?-That is
the only thing I can recollect about it.
10,399. Have you bought your meal in the same way ever since?-
Yes, until last year, when I had as much as could supply myself.
10,400. How many bolls had you to buy in the course of the
year?-From 4 to 6.
10,401. Do you think you lost 2s. 6d. a boll on each of these?-I
have no doubt I did, for want of ready money.
10,402. What have you to say about the other things?-That was
somewhat further back, but at any rate I have been out of pocket
with Spence & Co. ever since commenced with them. I was a
skipper where I was before, and got a skipper's fee; but the fee
which I got from Spence & Co. is not so much as I got formerly. I
fished for John Johnston for 11 years. For the first two years I was
only a young fellow, and was to be paid according to my fishing.
After that, I got promise of £4 of skipper's fee, and when he saw I
was getting on so well he always gave me £5 afterwards. Then I
was forced-at least I believed I was forced, although I know
now that I was not-to go to Spence & Co. from John Johnston,
because he got his warning and could not keep me, but had to sell
his boats or boat.
10,403. When was that?-In 1867 or 1868. He had two boats, and
he sold the one I was fishing in.
10,404. How were you forced to leave him?-Because Spence &
Co. got a tack from Mr walker, and I and all the north parish
understood that I had to leave my employer and go to them.
10,405. Were you not told that you were quite at liberty to fish
either to Spence & Co. or to any other person?-I was never told
that until I heard Mr. Sandison say it. I don't think it was told in
the north of the island; at least I was not told about it.
10,406. Were you ever told that you had to fish for Spence &
Co?-That was rather hinted at.
10,407. Who hinted it?-Mr. Mouat. I was rather hot-tempered,
and so was he, and when we were both hot he gave me a hint about
that.
10,408. Was that in 1868?-I think so.
10,409. I suppose you conveyed the hint to a good number of
others?-Yes. I sat down and wrote a letter to Mr. Walker, telling
him what had been said; and I got an answer from him, saying I
was to work according to the rules I had in my lease, and that no
one could interfere.
10,410. Is there anything more you have to say?-There is nothing
particular; but I may say that there are a good many skippers here,
and a good many poor men, who will never be asked to come
forward, and will never get the chance.
10,411. They may come forward if they like?-They don't care
about coming forward, and there are some of them whose stories
are far worse than mine.
[Page 253]
Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, CHARLES GRAY, examined.
10,412. You are a mason at Balliasta?-Yes.
10,413. Have you been working lately in the chromate of iron
quarries?-Not for the last few years. I think it is six years since
I was there.
10,414. How were the wages paid at these quarries when you
were working at them?-Mr. Mouat was superintending then.
10,415. When did he cease to superintend?-I think it is only
about a year back, or two years.
10,416. Was there a change in the company then?-Yes. There
was a new company formed then, and new people to work the
quarries.
10,417. Who was working the quarries when you were employed
there?-There were different agents during the time I was there;
but Mr. Mouat was superintendent.
10,418. You don't know who the company were?-I think the
company were just the proprietors.
10,419. Were your wages paid to you in cash?-Yes; we got them
in cash from the cashier, the late Mr. Charles Mouat,-not the
present Mr. Mouat.
10,420. Where were they paid to you?-Sometimes at his house,
and sometimes at the vestry, which was a public place.
10,421. But always in cash?-Yes, always in cash, since there was
a cashier appointed.
10,422. Did you not sometimes get lines?-No; I never got lines. I
cannot say for others, but I never got one.
10,423. Did you never see a line?-Not to my recollection.
10,424. Did you ever hear of lines being given?-I did hear about
that, but I could not vouch for it being true.
10,425. What did you hear about it?-That some parties had got
lines for part of their wages.
10,426. What were they to do with the lines?-I don't know.
10,427. What did you understand they were to do with them?-I
understood the line was to be paid at the place where it was sent
to.
10,428. Was that at the shop?-Yes.
10,429. And to be paid in goods?-I did not know that.
10,430. Did you not know whether there was any practice of that
sort?-No, I did not know about it myself.
10,431. Have you heard that there was?-Yes; but it is a long time
back.
10,432. I understood you had been employed there lately?-No.
10,433. Who is paymaster there now?-Mr. Gardner. I think the
men are paid at his house.
10,434. The company have no shop?-No.
10,435. And Mr. Gardner has no connection with any shop?-
None whatever.
Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, GILBERT WILLIAMSON, examined.
10,436. Did you receive a citation some days ago to attend here?-
There was a citation handed to me not bearing my name.
10,437. It bore the name of Peter Williamson, storekeeper,
Haroldswick?-Yes.
10,438. Is there any person named Williamson who is a
storekeeper at Haroldswick except yourself?-No.
10,439. Did you not know that that citation was intended for
you?-I could not certify that it was.
10,440. Had you any doubt that it was?-I had some doubt.
10,441. How could you possibly have any doubt when there is no
other person of that name there who is a storekeeper?-Because
my name in the register is Gilbert, not Peter.
10,442. Did you think that was a sufficient excuse for not
attending this Court?-Yes.
10,443. Did you receive a citation to-day?-From a boy.
10,444. From a messenger from me?-Yes.
10,445. Did he tell you he had been sent from here?-He said he
got it from Mr. White.
10,446. In reply to that, you wrote saying that you did not think
that was intended for you either?-No.
10,447. Or that you received it too late, and that you did not know
whether you were bound to come?-Yes. I took witnesses to see
what time it was when I got it.
10,448. Are you the principal storekeeper to Spence & Co. at
Haroldswick?-Yes.
10,449. Have you anything to do with the purchases of hosiery
which are made at that shop?-We don't deal in it.
10,450. At the shop you do not; but Mrs. John Spence, who is not
able to attend here to-day, has some dealings in hosiery?-We
never see her buy hosiery in the shop, to my knowledge.
10,451. Do you not know that she buys hosiery in her house?-I
hear that she buys hosiery, but I never saw her do so.
10,452. Have you ever received lines from her directing you to
supply goods to parties from whom she has bought hosiery?-I
have received lines from her to supply value for so much, but not
stating that it was for hosiery. It might have been for anything.
10,453. Have you any of these lines?-No, I have none.
10,454. In what form are they drawn?-Suppose it was to Ursula
Johnston, the line would be, Pay to Ursula Johnston the value of
2s., and it is signed J. Spence.
10,455. Do you always honour these lines by supplying the party
named in them with goods up to the value of the sum named in the
line?-Yes, with whatever they ask for.
10,456. Do you receive many of them?-Sometimes we receive a
few, but not very many; at least I do not consider it very many.
10,457. What would you consider very many?-100 in a week; I
would consider that very many.
10,458. How many is it that you do receive?-I never counted
them.
10,459. Would there be twenty in a week?-Sometimes not one
half of that, sometimes more, and some weeks none at all.
10,460. Is that according as the business is brisk, or the reverse?-
So far as I know, it is. I am under the conviction that for a month I
have had no advances to pay at all.
10,461. Is there any other way in which parties who sell hosiery to
Mrs. Spence, or who you have reason to believe sell hosiery to her,
are paid out of the shop?-I don't quite understand the question.
10,462. Have you any other transactions with Mrs. Spence?-
None with her.
10,463. Do you know whether any other parties who sell hosiery to
Mrs. Spence have accounts at the shop-I could not certify as to
that.
10,464. Have you got any of these lines?-I have none of them on
my person.
10,465. Have you any of them in the shop?-Yes.
10,466. Were they left there by parties to whom you had supplied
goods?-Yes.
10,467. Did you read the citation which was sent to you?-Yes.
10,468. Did you see that you were required to bring with you
specimens of lines given or received by any party connected with
the company in the purchase of hosiery?-I saw that written there.
10,469. Why did you not bring them?-Because they were not
mine to bring.
10,470. Whose were they?-Spence & Co.'s.
10,471. Why did you not ask leave to bring them?-Because the
members of the firm were all here.
10,472. Could you not have brought them with you, and asked
leave of the partners of the firm here to produce them?-That
never occurred to my mind.
10,473. Do you make the same answer with regard to the citation
to produce all papers, books, and accounts, [Page 254] showing
the nature of the company's dealings with fishermen or knitters?-
Yes.
10,474. You could not bring these here without asking leave of the
members of the firm to produce them-I could not ask their leave,
because they were here.
10,475. Could you not have brought the books here and asked
permission then to produce them?-I did not think it was right for
me to remove them from the office until I had asked leave to do
so. There is one of the books here, the fisherman's ledger, which
has been spoken to by Mr. Mouat.
10,476. How was that book brought here?-Mr. Mouat sent for it.
10,477. Why did you come here yourself without asking leave of
the members of the firm?-Because I was summoned.
10,478. Was it not just as necessary for you to ask leave to come
yourself as to ask leave to bring the books?-No, I came when I
was sent for.
10,479. Let me recommend you in future to pay more attention to
a legal citation when it is served upon you, or you will get into
trouble. I cannot allow you any expenses for attending here, in
consequence of the way in which you have behaved.
*The following specimen of the lines issued by Mrs. Spence
was afterwards produced:-'Haroldswick, 13th Novr. 1871
Messrs. Spence & Co. pay Andrina Boyne the sum of one shilling.
1s. J. SPENCE'
The line is crossed, 'Entd. G.W.'
Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, ALEXANDER SANDISON (recalled), examined.
10,480. Are you agent at Uyea Sound for the Shipwrecked
Mariners' Fund?-I was agent, but there are no members now.
10,481. Have the men ceased to subscribe?-Yes. I think I have
not sent up a return for five or six years, not having anything to
send.
10,482. Are any of the members of your firm agents in Unst for the
Society?-No.
10,483. Do you know anything of a man named Jamieson who was
formerly at Uyea Sound, and who was warned out by your firm?-
That would be Thomas Jamieson who was at Uyea Sound until
three years ago.
10,484. Was he removed from that place shortly after you took
your lease?-About a year after.
10,485. He had a shop there?-Yes.
10,486. Is there any stipulation in the lease about shops on the
property?-It is so long since I read it that I don't recollect.
10,487. Have you any letters on that subject from Mr. Walker or
from Major Cameron?-I cannot tax my memory with receiving
any.
10,488. Is it understood that no shops should be opened upon the
estate?-That was the understanding.
10,489. And was it in following out that understanding that
Jamieson was removed?-Yes.
10,490. Do you know whether a man named John Johnston
was removed at Haroldswick in carrying out the same
understanding?-I believe he was. He has now a shop near
the same place where he was before, on an adjacent estate.
10,491. He removed to Lord Zetland's land?-Yes.
10,492. Is that the case in which the shop was removed bodily
across the road?-I believe so, but I cannot speak to that from
seeing it.
10,493. I fancy the understanding you mention proceeds upon the
footing that you ought, in consideration of the rent you pay to
Major Cameron, to have the monopoly of the shop business in the
island, so far as he can give it to you?-Yes; that no doubt was the
intention.
10,494. And that would be one of the considerations upon which
you pay so high a rent?-Yes. I may state that one strong reason
why we took the lease at first was, that we believed it was
depopulation and sheep farming that was meant, by what we
saw taking place in other places; and we also were under the
impression that the small tenants could not exist without the
scattalds, or if they should have them to pay for; and while, of
course, I do not say there was not some selfish design, because we
expected to make a living, we also hoped to see them make a
living, and we were to try to improve them if we could. However
it ends, that was really our design, and the number of small shops
which existed stood in the way of that. I have known cases where
I would not give luxuries to a man who was in debt, but he would
come and get fishing lines from me, which he said he needed, and
he has sold them to other shops in order to supply himself with
superfluities. I know one case in which I gave a woman a quarter
of a boll of meal, when I would not give her either tea or sugar,
and she went and disposed of a portion of the meal to a neighbour
in order to get tea, she being then irrecoverably in debt.
10,495. Then you mean to imply that this monopoly was secured
partly to save yourselves from debts of that sort, and partly to keep
the people in their holdings?-Yes; to keep them from being
turned out of the island.
10,496. But also partly to prevent them, when they got into your
debt, from spending their money and their produce elsewhere?-
Exactly. I may mention that North Yell we had only three fishing
boats this year, and when I settled with them I paid them over
£200 in cash. We had no store there, except a small one at the
beach or fishing station, to supply them with the necessaries they
wanted and the fishing materials. We don't cure by contract there,
but by beach men, splitters, and boys; and I paid every one in cash
as being the simplest and shortest way.
10,497. Is there any arrangement between your firm and any other
firm or fish-curer, by which you take over the debts of men who
change their service?-There is no arrangement. We try to do that
if we can, but we find it rather uphill work.
10,498. Have you ever succeeded in getting a merchant who
has engaged a man that formerly fished to you, and who left in
your debt, to pay up the man's debt?-Since the company was
formed we have had no experience of that, and it would be
scarcely possible for me tax my memory just now with cases
which had occurred before; but I have no doubt there were cases,
in which I tried to do that, whether I succeeded or not.
10,499 If a man left Mr. Mouat, for instance, and was in his debt
and came to you, would you pay up the debt which he was due to
Mr. Mouat?-Yes; but it was only a peradventure; there was no
standing rule on the matter, that I am aware of.
Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, THOMAS ANDERSON,
examined.
10,500. You are a fisherman at Haroldswick, and you have fished
for some years for Spence & Co?-Yes.
10,501. You have been running accounts with them: during that
period, and taking your supplies from them?-Yes; the whole or
nearly the whole of my supplies.
10,502. Before that where did you get your supplies?-I had
more money to work upon then, and I got my supplies from John
Johnston and from Mr. Mouat at Baltasound, and sometimes from
Mr. Spence.