10,504. How does it happen that you have not been paying in cash
during the last four years?-Because have a small family, and I
have more responsibility.
10,505. Your expenses have been increased, and have not the cash
in hand?-Yes.
10,506. Was it for that reason that you were obliged to run
accounts at the shop at Haroldswick?-Yes.
10,507. Do you think you are as well served in respect of quality
and price of goods as you were formerly?-I get the same quality
of goods, but not at the same price. If I were taking cloth or
cotton, or any other [Page 255] kind of goods, and paying cash for
them, I would get them 2s. 6d. per £ cheaper than if I were having
them marked down for a twelvemonth.
10,508. Have you tried both ways within the last two years, to any
great extent?-I have not paid cash to any great extent within that
time.
10,509. But you have bought perhaps £2 or £3 worth in the course
of the year?-Yes.
10,510. Did you get a discount for cash?-Yes.
10,511. Can you tell me the cash price and the credit price for
meal?-Not exactly; but I know that if I was buying a boll of meal
for cash, I would get it 1s. 6d. or 2s. cheaper than if I was having it
marked down for a twelvemonth. I have also got cotton 1/2d. or 1d.
per yard cheaper when paying for it in cash than if it had been
marked down. If I had cash to the amount of £20 in the course of
a year, I am certain I could save £2 upon it at any rate.
10,512. If you were paid for your fish every month as they were
delivered, do you think you would be able to pay in cash, and so
pay off your debt?-I think I would, if there were good fishing
years.
10,513. If you had a bad season again, where would you get your
supplies?-We are not to be looking for bad seasons always.
10,514. Nor for good seasons always?-No.
10,515. You have had several good seasons now, have you not?-
Yes.
10,516. How do you sell your winter and spring fish?-We can get
cash or goods for them.
10,517. How much will you make for your winter and spring fish
in an ordinary year: may it be £4 or £5?-Sometimes it may be as
much as that, but not generally.
10,518. Could you not make more if you had larger boats?-We
have never tried that; but I don't think it.
Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, JAMES HAY, examined.
10,519. You are a merchant in Haroldswick?-I was. I sold
groceries and some soft goods; but I have given up that business
now and turned farmer.
10,520. Were you engaged in fish-curing?-A little. I had one
boat at one time but not now.
10,521. With what class of people was your business chiefly
done?-Just with the neighbours,-tenants and fishermen.
10,522. Was it a ready-money business generally?-It was that
system I liked. I ran some accounts; but I rather liked ready
money.
10,523. You were not extensively engaged in fishcuring, and in
that way you had no security for long accounts?-No.
10,524. Was that the only reason why you preferred a ready-money
system?-I preferred it, thinking the system would work better
once it had had a fair beginning.
10,525. Did you find that it worked fairly well with you?-I had
not enough experience of it to say that, because the other system
had been so long in existence that it was difficult to make an
exception.
10,526. You mean that the credit system has prevailed so long, and
is so deeply rooted in Shetland, that it was difficult to carry on
business in any other way-Yes.
10,527. Have you formed any conclusions on that subject which
you are now prepared to state?-My own conviction is, that if a
ready-money system was once in operation, and had a fair start, it
would work better than the present system.
10,528. But how are you prepared to give it a start?-I think that
if the men were paid their money monthly or fortnightly, that
would make them feel their independence better. Perhaps they
would husband their means better; and if there were those among
them who were careless about it, they would be taught a lesson
when the year was done, which would serve as a warning for
them in time to come. There might, however, be a difficulty
in beginning such a system. I can remember, and others present
will remember it too, two or three years of bad fishing, followed
by a year of blight, when the man who wrought most anxiously
and was honest-hearted could not meet the demands upon him.
At such times, if there was no qualification or mitigation of the
ready-money system, perhaps the men might get into difficulty.
10,529. But do you not think that with that system of fortnightly
payments a respectable fisherman and tenant would get credit just
as easily as he gets it now?-I believe he would.
10,530. From a greater number of persons, and on more
advantageous terms?-I think he would.
10,531. Do you think there would be more places open to
respectable fishermen, at which they could get credit if it
was absolutely required in a bad season?-Yes.
10,532. I suppose in a bad season now no merchant would give
credit to the fishermen unless he was secure of their services for
next season?-I should suppose so.
10,533. Therefore the fishermen, as a rule, are shut up to the one
shop?-Yes, it comes to that.
10,534. Where fishermen were paid monthly or fortnightly, and
you knew a man to be a respectable man, would you, as a
merchant, have any hesitation in a bad season in giving him a
reasonable amount of credit for the support of his family?-I
would have no hesitation in doing that at all, and I have done it.
10,535. Even under the old system?-Yes, under the old system.
I have done so, from a charitable feeling for the men in their
necessities.
10,536. Did you think that in such cases you were likely to be
repaid?-In some cases I saw the urgency of the case, and I gave
the man supplies from sympathy, whether I might be paid for them
or not.
10,537. But do you think you would be more likely to obtain
repayment if there was an open system, and the whole country was
not monopolized by one or two great firms?-I think so; because
if the men were paid their money I think they would feel more
independent, and they would, so to say, eke out that money in the
most economical way, and thus be better off.
10,538. Probably, also, they would not be encouraged to run so
very much into debt with any merchant as they are at present?-
I think they would not. If the system were altered, and cash
payments introduced, I think the men would feel that they could
not ask credit to such a large extent as they do now, except in
cases of urgent necessity.
10,539. So that, if these very large accounts were not incurred, the
ordinary merchants, fairly competing, would not run so much
risk?-I think so.
10,540. Do you think the large credits given by the fish-curing
firms tend to increase the risk to the small merchant in the country
who does not engage in fishcuring?-It may do so. I know that
after the years of bad fishing, followed by a year of blight which I
have mentioned, or emergencies like that, the merchants, such as
Spence & Co., and others, had to lay out a great deal of money
from the urgent necessity of the case, and to supply families who
were almost starving.
10,541. Has it been your experience that it is difficult for small
merchants to begin business and to succeed in Shetland?-I cannot
say that I have had much experience of that.
10,542. Are you aware that some merchants have lately been
obliged to give up their business in Unst, in consequence of the
monopoly which had been obtained by a single firm?-I have
heard that stated; but I had a lease of the place where I lived, and
that did not apply to me.
10,543. You gave up business voluntarily?-Yes. I found a farm
necessary for my family, and I thought I would be better with it.
10,544. Do you think there has been a great improvement in the
condition of the people within the last twenty or thirty years?-I
think there has been.
10,545. Have they got more money in their hands?-I believe the
present year has been a very good one [Page 256] for them; but
there were some seasons, a few years back, when it was different.
A great deal depends upon the returns from the fishing.
10,546. But, apart from the variableness of seasons-because the
seasons have always been variable-and taking the state of
Shetland now and twenty or thirty years ago, do you think there
has been an improvement for the better?-I cannot say there has
been much in the way of improvement. Perhaps there has been
some.
10,547. Are the people more independent now than they were
then?-I cannot say as to that.
10,548. Do you think they are as dependent now as ever?-I
cannot say; the thing is so much fluctuating, because it depends
upon a year or two of failure in fishing and blight, and that brings
them down.
10,549. About twenty or thirty years ago were not many of the
people bound to fish for their landlords or tacksmen?-I think
they were. That was the case twenty years ago fully more than it
is now.
10,550. At that time they were actually bound by the conditions
under which they held their land?-I understand so.
10,551. But now they are told they are free?-Yes. They know
now that they are at liberty to fish to whom they please; but I don't
know if that was the general notion before.
10,552. That is, that they will not be turned out of their land if they
comply with certain regulations on certain estate
10,553. But suppose Mr. Johnston were to start half a dozen boats,
would he get them manned?-I don't know whether he would get
so many as that, but he might.
10,554. Suppose you were to start half a dozen boats, could you
get them manned?-I cannot say.
10,555. Has anybody tried that within the last half dozen years?-I
am not aware that it has been tried. I believe the men understood
that they were bound to fish for the merchants who supplied them
with boats, and who gave them supplies for their families, and they
did not like to make a change. But now, when the men know that
they have their liberty so far, I suppose they would be inclined to
go to the merchant who offered them the highest price for their
fish.
Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, JOHN SPENCE, examined.
10,556. You are the senior partner of the firm of Spence & Co?-I
am.
10,557. You have heard the evidence which has been given by Mr.
Sandison and Mr. Mouat?-Yes.
10,558. Is there anything which you wish to explain further, or to
add to their evidence?-Perhaps I may be allowed to read a letter
which I wrote some time ago, and which shows my views and the
company's views with regard to the state of matters. It is a letter
which was written by me to the other members of the company,
and it is dated 29th January 1870. It is as follows:
'Dear Sirs,-I have often spoken to you about adopting a cash
system in all our dealings with the people but none of you seemed
to think it would do. I of course would not press it in the
meantime, though I am always more convinced that it would be a
much better system than the present, and we should be gainers by
it to a very great extent, if wrought as it should be; and, depend
upon it, it will have to come in, and that not long to the time,
whether we will or not; so I would advise you to consider over it
more than you have done. It will take no more capital, but even
less than the present system does.
'If after further consideration, you still think it would not do, could
it not then be possible that the price of fish could be fixed at the
commencement of the fishing? Be assured that we will be forced
into this, whether we will or not; and certainly it would be the
proper way. The price of everything else that we deal in is
generally fixed or agreed upon when the transaction is made, and
why not do so with fish? We do it with winter fish, and what is to
hinder us to do it with the summer ones? In no other part of the
world that we know of is there such a system as we have. Look at
the herring-curers south: I believe herrings would never keep at
such a high price were it not that the price is fixed at the first. If
we were to do the same with our fish, I have not the least
hesitation in saying that we should have them all away and into
cash as fast as they could be dried, because we should never keep
them on hand when we could get a safe price for them; and the
fact that we had got a certain price before we could be safe, would
prompt us the more to seek to obtain it, and buyers would come to
terms more quickly; indeed, the moment we agreed with the
fishermen, we could at same time almost enter into a contract with
a buyer or buyers for all our catch. It is often seen what a
disagreeable thing it is to keep a large parcel of fish hanging on in
the face of a fluctuating market, the chance being oftener against
us than in our favour; and fish, in particular, being such a perishing
article, the risk is very often great. Many other things could be
brought in in support of our fixing the price of green fish when the
fishing begins. If you do not think we could begin to it alone, it
could only be a trial to correspond with all the other curers, and
see if they would not join with Hay & Co., Adie, Anderson, Pole
& Hoseason, and any other you know of, and make the proposal.
Have a meeting of all the curers, say at Voe, or wherever it might
be thought best, and try the thing. I am fully persuaded that
circumstances, and that not long to the time, will compel us to it, if
not to the cash system.
'Notice around you even and see how things are tending, and see
how opposition is creeping in-of course against us. The old
system we keep is the cause of it, to a good extent at least. Mr.
Sandison should correspond with some of the other curers; or
could you not ask Mr. Adie to come to Unst? I think we often
spoke of doing that before. I suppose he is friendly enough to us.
I am almost sure he would join us in the movement, and Pole &
Hoseason would do it, also Mr. Henderson. I trust you will give
this matter your consideration, if it should come no further.
Shetland is behind it long long way, and a new kind of political
economy is needed for it; and why should we not make the trial?-
When we formed into a company, everybody was made to
understand that there would be improvements in many things-
which I hope there is-but we should go forward, and not stand
still.'
The whole of us, as a company, were very anxious to adopt this
system, but there were a great many difficulties that came in our
way which we could scarcely control.
10,559. Were these difficulties raised on the part of the men?-
Not exactly. The men were anxious for the change, but they were
misled and influenced, and we could not get a fair start. With
regard to the old system of what may be called truck, I have
looked into my books about forty years ago, and I see that it was
the habit of all the fishermen then to prefer putting their produce
into the hands of the dealers, and leaving it there till the end of the
year for settlement. That has been altered by various things. I
object to the great number of small dealers, because I don't think
they develop the resources of the island to such a degree as they
might; but if a large firm or firms, with the tenants in their own
hands, and who are possessed of capital were to set about doing
that, the resources of the island could be far more easily
developed.
10,560. Would a large firm of that kind, engaged in fish-curing,
not make a fair profit, and carry on business in a satisfactory way,
if it left the supply of shop goods, draperies, and provisions to
other dealers? Is it impossible in Shetland to separate between the
fish merchant's business and that of the drapery or provision
dealer?-I think it is perfectly possible; and I think it would be the
proper plan, that the fish-curing and dealing [Page 257] should be
perfectly distinct; but then there would require to be special
arrangements made for that purpose, in order to get it into working
order for the benefit of all classes.
10,561. I suppose that at the summer stations, however, it is quite
necessary that the fish-curer should keep a supply of provisions for
his men?-Yes.
10,562. But when the men are in their own homes, would it not be
quite possible for them to get their supplies from the ordinary
shops supported by private enterprise throughout the country,
without having recourse to the man who was employing them?-
Of course it would; and if that system was honestly carried out the
men would benefit by it, but if the trade was carried on by small
shops, looking only to pounds, shillings, and pence, that would do
the people injury.
10,563. In what way?-Because it would increase the number of
small shops; and, as I say, these cannot develop the resources of
the island as they ought to do. They would only be drawing means
from the people which they could not apply in a proper way. For
instance, take the herring fishing: Messrs. Hay & Co. are the
principal herring-curers, and no small dealer could carry on that
business in the way they do. They are carrying it on just now at a
very heavy sacrifice, year after year, in the expectation that the
herring will come; but if Messrs. Hay & Co. were to give up the
business, and it were to fall into the hands of small dealers, there
would be nobody to receive herrings when they did come.
10,564. Is not the herring fishing carried on only from Lerwick?-
It is sometimes carried on from here, when there are herrings on
the coast.
10,565. But could not the fish-merchant make his arrangements
so as to derive a sufficient profit from the sale of his fish without
depending upon the profit that is derived from the sale of his
goods?-It would be perfectly possible to make an arrangement of
that kind; but the case of Shetland requires special arrangements in
consequence of its peculiar position. If the fish could be sent off
fresh to the market whenever the men came on shore with them,
and we had no more outlays upon them, then there might be a
profit; but, as things are now, we must lay in heavy stocks for the
incoming year.
10,566. Heavy stocks of what?-Of fishing materials and salt.
Spence & Co. must now order perhaps 150 tons of salt; and if we
did not make arrangements with the men, that would become a
loss.
10,567. But you could make arrangements with the men as early as
you please, although the men were not dealing with your shop?-
We expect the preference, because I hold, and can prove in various
ways, that the arrangement made with Mr. Walker was with a good
intention. I think co-operation in the Shetland Islands is far more
beneficial than competition. Competition between two poor
merchants does not do any good, but an immense deal of injury;
and I think that, before it cash system is entered into, a full and
thorough investigation should be made by the proprietors and the
principal dealers, in order to see how it can be made to work best
for the general good. The change can be made without injury to
any one, but it must be done a certain way, and that can only be
found out by such a special investigation as I have referred to.
Shetland is far behind, and I think the adoption of a cash system
would be the means of increasing the number of dealers who
would draw away the people's means and be a bar against
developing the resources of the country in a proper way. Some
of these dealers would be rubbed; the people would be poorer; and
no dealer even with capital would be inclined to go into the field
in such circumstances. If they did, it would need to be under some
sort of protective system; or if a dealer with capital came forward
he would have every chance of obtaining a monopoly, and he
might do great mischief.
10,568. Is there not a monopoly at present?-No, we don't want it.
We only ask the fishermen to give us the preference, and any man
who has cash to get can get it at any time he likes.
10,569. I don't doubt that; but is there any competition in the shop
trade in Unst just now?-There is no monopoly.
10,570. Is there not a monopoly on Major Cameron's estate at
least?-It is not a monopoly. I say that what we aimed at was
rather co-operation; and if we got a fair chance there was a
prospect of the fishermen, if they had money, participating
along with us.
10,571. Is there any further statement you wish to make?-I
should like the men, if possible, to find boats for themselves.
It is not our fault that they don't own them.
10,572. Do you encourage them to buy their boats?-Yes.
10,573. Have you not succeeded in that?-Since we have formed
the company, we have had a great deal to contend with, and I have
been in ill health, and so many enemies have been created against
us, that with bad years we have found it difficult to go on; but I
hold, and can prove in various ways, that the arrangement we
made was for the good of the tenants.
10,574. But in what way has the opposition excited against you
prevented the men from buying their boats?-Any change in
Shetland, whether for good or ill, is sure to create opposition.
10,575. Has the opposition you have met with been among the
fishermen?-No. If they are taken in hand properly, and made to
understand matters, I have always found them quite reasonable,
but they have been badly influenced.
10,576. Has that influence been exercised by rival merchants?-It
has arisen perhaps from want of knowledge, and from parties not
knowing how such business should be carried on. It would be our
aim to allow the men to receive cash for what they earn, but there
are many difficulties which can only be rectified by proprietors
and us and the tenants together.
10,577. Do you mean that the proprietor should place the
fishermen altogether into your hands?-If the motive is good, I
think that should be the case. At least we should prefer to have
the tenants to transact with us.
10,578. But would it not be far better that the tenants should stand
on their own legs, and not be so entirely dependent on the large
companies?-It would be better; but that should be gone into with
great caution.
10,579. Don't you think the fishermen are less independent now,
when there is only one large firm in Unst to whom they can deliver
their fish, than they were when there were three competing
merchants?-They may be in the meantime, but that always tends
to harm.
10,580. What tends to harm?-Too much competition, because the
country is too poor for it. It would be far better for the proprietors
to take the men into their own hands to fish than to allow them to
go to number of small dealers.*
*Mr. Spence afterwards wrote the following letter to the
Commissioner:-
'Lest it may have been thought that in giving my evidence
before you I had approved of a monopoly, I now beg to send a
written explanation of what I meant, as I afterwards said to you I
would
'There is nothing in a dealing way I so much dislike as a
monopoly. What I wished to be understood was, that no number
of small dealers, however willing, working as they do, can
improve Shetland as it would really need; but that in order to
develop the resources of the country thoroughly, it must be done
by quite different means. There is no doubt but that a change is
needed, but it should be merged into with caution, or it will do
harm to some class. Shetland appears to be so far behind, that the
people must serve an apprenticeship, as it were, to any change for
their good. It occurred to me that some good might be done by all
the dealers in Unst amalgamating, and by their united capitals
and efforts carrying on business and the fishings on at sort of
co-operative system; but it did not seem to be in accordance with
a free-trade system, and was never tried, though, if properly
conducted, I have no doubt it could have done some good.
'In reference to the cash system, you would see in the letter I
read, and left with you, the views I have held. We have hitherto,
for various reasons found some difficulty in adopting it fully, but
we trust, ere long, to get it fairly introduced. One hindrance to us
getting it fairly wrought, is owing to the way we are bound to the
proprietors for the fishermen's rents. This also appears to those
who do not know the nature of the business, to be a monopoly;
because while we are thus bound we are compelled to a certain
extent, to restrict such men who, from extravagant habits or other
causes, cannot preserve their rents. It cannot be supposed that to
such [Page 258] men we can hand over money-perhaps to be
made a bad use of; and then, when rent time comes, have nothing
to get from them, and often not having got any rent for boats and
fishing materials. This is one thing in which there is great room
for improvement in Shetland.
'As a member of a firm having the principal business in this
land, I would beg to state that our mode of dealing seems to be
greatly misunderstood by many; and it would be most desirable
that an impartial investigation into the books and transactions of
every other dealer in the island should be made, when, I have no
doubt, matters would look something different. With regard to the
fishermen, they are not bound to fish, and they were never told so.
I, for one, have urged upon them to improve their farms, so as to
enable them to be independent of fishing, which I consider to be a
most dangerous employment in such small boats. We pay them
cash whenever they want it and have it to get. We do not
monopolize our dealings. Could a proper investigation be made
in other shops, I can venture to say that, on the whole, we sell
cheaper than any other. Besides the other dealers in the island, the
steamer runs twice a week in summer, and once in winter, from
Lerwick to here; and if the people wish to avail themselves of it,
they can get their supplies as easily from there as here. A public
roup, advertised all over Shetland, is held once every year for the
sale of cattle and ponies, where there is perfect freedom to buy and
sell. There are many things we do for the people which are not
generally known. I shall only mention one thing, to show what we
have to combat with. 1868 and 1869 the fishings were small, and
the crops so blighted, that seed and meal had to be imported,
and given out on credit to a great many, or else they would have
starved. The effects of these two years tell against both the men
and us for some time, but such occur occasionally; and it is
dealers, standing as we do, that feel it most. We hold, as you are
aware, a lease of a large portion of this island, and we are bound to
see certain improvements carried out, which, being new here,
raises a hostile spirit against us by those who are not inclined to
see our island made better. We try to introduce any other
improvements that can be thought of, feeling assured that if we
can get them accomplished, the people will be in much better
circumstances than they are. While we are pressing these
improvements, small dealers draw away the means of the people,
preventing both them and us from getting so fast on as we would
otherwise do; and while we are using all reasonable means to try
to get the indolent not to sell what, of their own farm produce, they
really need themselves, as is sometimes done, the report is often
got up that we want to monopolize the business of the island, when
there is nothing of the kind ever thought of by us.'
Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, PETER NICHOLSON, examined.
10,581. You are a fisherman and tenant farmer at Haroldswick?-I
am.
10,582. You hold land under Mr. Edmonstone of Buness?-Yes.
10,583. And you fish for Spence & Co?-I fished for Mr. Spence,
but not for Spence & Co. I have not fished any for three years.
10,584. Do you devote yourself entirely to your farm now?-Yes.
10,585. Why did you give up the fishing?-Because I did not like
the sea.
10,586. Were you quite content to fish for Spence & Co. if you
had continued at the fishing?-I would have been.
10,587. Where do you get your supplies now?-From Spence &
Co. and other places, just where I can make the best bargain.
10,588. Do you work at anything besides your own farm?-Yes, I
do day's work back and forward.
10,589. Do you get your day's pay at the time?-Yes; if I ask it, I
get it.
10,590. But you do not always ask it?-Sometimes I do not;
sometimes it will be two or three days, or a week, or a month,
before I get it.
10,591. Who do you work for mostly?-For Mr. Spence.
10,592. Do you keep an account at his shop?-Not much. If I
want anything I pay the money for it.
10,593. But you have an account sometimes?-No, I never keep
one.
10,594. Is there not an account in your name in his books?-Not
very much. I never keep a note of that myself.
10,595. But there is something in his books against you?-Yes.
10,596. And sometimes your day's pay is entered in that book
too?-No. I get money for my day's wages when I have asked for
it, or if I am working for some time it is entered in the book until I
get it, but all the money I have to get is given to me when I ask for
it.
10,597. Then you just keep an account the same as fisherman
does?-Much the same.
10,598. Only what is put down in your case is a day's pay or a
month's pay for work, instead of the price of fish?-Yes.
10,599. Have you been going on in that way for three years?-Yes.
10,600. Do you settle every year?-Yes, once a year, in January or
February. I have not settled for last year yet.
10,601. Was there a balance against you at last settlement?-Yes,
about 10s. or 12s.
10,602. Therefore you had no money to get?-I had money to get.
It is now that I have about 10s. or 12s. against me; but if I wanted
goods, and paid the money, I always got them.
10,603. Do you get some money now and then?-Yes, I always get
it when I ask it.
10,604. But you don't like to ask for much when you have an
account running against you?-No. I just get as much as keeps
me.
10,605. Where do you sell the stock off your farm?-I sell them to
any man who gives me most for them, but it is few or none that I
sell on this island. There are parties who come into the island to
buy them, and usually sell to them.
10,606. Why don't you get your day's work paid to you at the
time?-I would get it if I asked it.
10,607. Why don't you ask it?-Perhaps because I am not needing
it at the time.
10,608. Where do you get your supplies from besides Spence &
Co.'s?-At Mr. Johnston's.
10,609. Do you pay the same price there?-Much about it.
10,610. Is there any difference?-Not very much.
10,611. Is there any difference at all?-I don't know; I have never
seen much difference.
10,612. Is the price of meal the same at the two places?-I always
bought meal in bolls, and paid so much per boll. I bought some
from a farmer at Haroldswick, not from Spence & Co., and I paid
him 21s. per boll for meal off his own farm. I have not bought any
from Mr. Spence this year.
10,613. Is there no oatmeal in your account?-No.
10,614. Was there a balance in your favour at the last settlement
after you stopped fishing?-Yes; I think I had £12 to get. I think
my shop account for goods that year was about £4.
10,615. Who is the farmer from whom you got that meal?-Mr.
Hugh Inkster. I gave him money for it when I bought it.
10,616. Where did you get the 21s?-I got it from some ponies
that I sold, and from some money that I had saved before I left
the fishing.
10,617. Did you sell these ponies to Spence & Co.?-I sold one to
William Manson, and another to Charleson, who comes from Yell
Sound.
10,618. Do you sometimes buy your goods elsewhere than from
Spence & Co. and Johnston?-I sometimes get them from
Lerwick.
10,619. Do you get them cheaper there?-Very little. I never send
for them unless I am going there myself.
10,620. Did you ever fish for any one else than Spence & Co?-
Yes; I fished for the late Mr. Samuel D. Hunter, Lerwick.
10,621. Were you paid by him in the same way every year?-Yes.
10,622. You never were obliged to fish for any particular
person?-No.
10,623. And you never were obliged to take your goods from any
particular shop?-No.
Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, DAVID EDMONSTONE,
examined.
10,624. What are you?-I am factor on the Buness estate, and a
farmer.
10,625. I understand you have had a great deal of experience of
business in Shetland?-Yes. I was nine years in business as a
fish-merchant, and I have lived in Shetland all my life, with the
exception of a year or two.
[Page 259]
10,626. Were you the writer of a letter which was quoted in the
evidence given in Edinburgh, Q. 44,511-Yes.
10,627. Do you still retain the same opinions as are stated in that
letter?-I do.
10,628. Do you think it is a correct statement at this time, that the
people do not receive in money one-fiftieth of their earnings?-In
the way I look at it, I think that statement is correct, because I hold
that when there is only a settlement once a year, in January or
February, and the man gets his balance then, that is not a cash
payment in any sense of the word.
10,629. You mean that it is only a cash payment so far as the
balance is handed over to him?-Yes; and that he has not got
cash for fish or any other produce during the season.
10,630. You don't doubt, I suppose, that a fisherman can get an
advance of cash during the season if he wants it?-No, I don't
doubt that.
10,631. Do you think that advances or payments of that nature in
the course of the fishing season ought to be made compulsory, or
to be required by law?-Yes, I have long thought so.
10,632. Do you think that would be practicable in the fishing
business?-I think so most decidedly, so far as my experience
goes.
10,633. Have you any opinion to give with regard to the system of
combining land-holding with fishing in Shetland?-I think they
must be combined to a certain extent. I have thought a good deal
and I don't think a man can earn a sufficient livelihood by fishing
alone, because the weather in the winter time is so stormy that they
cannot often get out for many days, and sometimes for weeks.
10,634. Would that difficulty not be removed to some extent if
larger boats were introduced, and the men were trained to the use
of them?-I think not. From the strong currents which run round
the shore, I think larger boats are not adapted to the coast. In fact,
I believe a good Shetland boat, well manned, would go through
what a much larger one would not go through.
10,635. Do you know that to be the opinion of the best seamen in
Shetland?-I believe it is. For instance, the large boats used in the
neighbourhood of Lerwick for herrings have often been lost when
the common six-oared boats came safely. These large boats are
more unwieldy and more difficult to handle than the small ones.
10,636. At what period are the rents on the Buness estate paid?-
At Martinmas.
10,637. Is it necessary to fix the payment at that period, from a
consideration of the settling time between the merchants and the
fishermen?-Yes. It has always been the habit to pay the rents at
Martinmas.
10,638. It is universal in Shetland, I understand, to pay the rents
only once a year?-Yes; the tenants have their holdings from
Martinmas to Martinmas.
10,639. Can you explain why that arrangement has been made? Is
it from anything connected with the fishing?-I think so. The men
would then have an opportunity of completing their fishing and
getting all the sales made which they have to make, and then they
are supposed to be in funds. I suppose that is the reason, but I
don't know.
10,640. Is it usual for the proprietor to enter into any arrangement
with the fish-curer for the payment of his rents?-We do that on
the Buness estate, and I should like to explain the reason of it. The
tenants have all been told that they are at perfect liberty to fish to
whom they like; but after they have engaged to fish to a certain
curer, we wish them to bring a guarantee from their curer or curers
for the rent of the year on which they have entered, and during
which they are to fish. One reason for that-in fact the only
reason-is, that the men do not get money payments, and therefore
a great number of them will be induced to run a heavy account at
the shop, and when we collect the rents at Martinmas we would
have nothing to get. If the men were paid in money, daily or
weekly or fortnightly, then we would make no such arrangement,
but would collect the rents directly from the men.
10,641. Then, in fact, that arrangement is made in order to limit
the credit which the fish-merchant gives to his men?-Yes; and to
secure that we are to get part of that money.
10,642. But it has the effect of limiting their credit?-Yes.
10,643. Are you aware whether that is a usual arrangement in
Shetland?-I don't know. The Buness estate was in tack or lease
to tacksmen for twelve or fourteen years before 1868, first to Mr.
Hunter of Lerwick, and then to myself. Under that arrangement
we paid a certain amount for the estate, and made the best we
could of it.
10,644. You took the risk of the tenants paying their rents?-Yes,
the entire risk.
10,645. Did Mr. Hunter and you employ most of the men as
fishermen?-Yes, most of them.
10,646. Do you think the effect of the present system is to
stunt trade, and keep other shops down except those of the
fish-curers?-I think so.
10,647. Did you hear the evidence which Mr. Spence gave on that
subject?-Yes.
10,648. Do you agree with his opinion that it would be better to
have one large monopolist than a number of small shops?-No, I
don't agree with that.
10,649. You think that competition would be wholesome?-I
think so, if there were cash payments.
10,650. Have you any reasons, within your own experience, for
maintaining that opinion with regard to Shetland?-I think, from
my own experience, that the people would be very much more
independent if they had cash in their hands. They are not entrusted
with cash just now, as a general rule. I know they get their
balances paid; but they are not entrusted with cash, and therefore
they are not independent. They are like schoolboys; they lean
upon other people, and I don't think that is a good system. When a
bad year comes, they expect that the fish-curer has to advance
them meal; and they will tell him that if he won't do it, they won't
fish for him again. In that way he must do it; in fact they think he
is bound to do it. They have no self-reliance or independence.
10,651. Could they get supplies in any other way if the curer did
not advance them meal?-There are very few tenants who have
not stock of their own-cattle and horses.
10,652. But these are liable to the landlord for their rent?-Yes;
and they are liable to be sold for supplies to themselves.
10,653. Do you think that even in a bad year their stock might
carry them through?-I think so, in most cases.
10,654. Is there any restriction on the Buness estate upon the
opening of new shops?-None whatever.
10,655. Do you think it is possible for a shopkeeper to prosper in
Shetland who is not engaged in the fishcuring business?-I think
so.
10,656. Even under the present system?-Yes; because there is a
good deal of money among the people, irrespective of the fishing.
They have their produce, and they are not compelled to go with it
all to the fishcurer. There are several shops in this island, the
keepers of which, I believe, are doing very well.
10,657. Do you know anything as to the season at which these
shops have the largest sale?-I do not.
10,658. Would it be a fair inference, from what you know of the
state of things here, to say that the receipts of these shops are
much larger in the spring, when the men have got a little cash at
settlement, than they are at other periods of the year?-I daresay
they are. I cannot speak of that from my own experience; but I
believe that these shops advance a number of the fishermen who
are fishing, perhaps, to Spence & Co. or others, and take the
chance of getting payment when the men receive their money.
10,659. But that is a chance which comes to nothing, or falls
altogether, if the men happen to have run up a large account at
Spence & Co.'s shop?-Necessarily so.
10,660. So that these dealers run a considerable risk in giving
credit at all?-Yes.
10,661. Do you think a large firm, which is engaged both in the
shop business and in the fish-curing business, [Page 260] has a
great hold over the fishermen, so as to secure their services for the
fishing season?-That depends entirely upon the place and the
circumstances. If the firm has control over the men, from having a
lease of the lands on which they live, they must necessarily have a
great influence over them.
10,662. But may such a control not be obtained merely by them
having, a number of the men in debt?-I believe it may.
10,663. Are you aware of such control having been exercised by
fish-merchants in Shetland?-I have heard about it, but it is not
within my own knowledge. My own experience has been that
indebted men and bound men are the most difficult men to deal
with, and that a clear independent man is the man easiest to deal
with in every way.
10,664. Is there any other general statement which you wish to
make with regard to the state of Shetland?-I don't remember any.
I would mention with regard to the Buness estate, that we have
offered leases to a great number of the tenants, but they don't seem
inclined to take them.
10,665. Are you acquainted with the rules which have been laid
down on the neighbouring estate of Major Cameron?-Yes.
10,666. Do you know how far the tenants have been adopting
them?-I believe they are working into them gradually.
10,667. The lease in that case is rather a short one, is it not?-I
think it is too short for an agricultural lease, especially with the
obligations they are under.
10,668. Do you mean with regard to peats and scattalds?-No; I
mean especially the obligations they are under with regard to
improvements.
10,669. There are obligations to make certain improvements, and
to uphold and improve the houses?-I believe so.
10,670. Do you think these obligations are a reason why the rules
and regulations have not been more generally complied with?-I
don't know. Of course it is very difficult to get a people who have
been accustomed to a particular system, and who are wedded to
their old ideas, to change; but I think the people here are now
beginning to see, after two or three years' trial, that it is to be for
their own advantage, and that they will go on with it.
10,671. The leases which you offered on the Buness estate
were, I suppose, intended to introduce a similar system of
improvements?-Yes; but the tenants always seem to think that
if they sign a lease for fourteen or nineteen years they are binding
themselves. They would wish to be free to go any year they like,
but to have the proprietor bound not to turn them off. That, in my
experience, is the reason why leases are not popular as a general
rule.
10,672. Can you give any information as to the ordinary diet of a
Shetland fisherman and his family?-I believe they live very much
better than the same class in England or in Scotland, or I should
perhaps say more expensively.
10,673. What distinction do you draw between these two things?-
They use a great deal of tea and biscuit and loaf, which the same
class in Scotland don't use.
10,674. I thought that loaves were generally unattainable in some
parts of Shetland?-They are not so in this island.
10,675. Have they not to be brought from Lerwick?-Yes, but they
are brought in great quantities.
10,676. Is not oatmeal the staple article of food?-They use it to a
great extent; but I don't think they use it in the form in which it
ought to be used. I don't think that too much tea and very little
bread is good for the working man.
10,677. In what form is the oatmeal mostly used?-I suppose it is
used in bread, but I don't know exactly. I don't think, as it general
rule, they use porridge, which is the most economical way of using
oatmeal.
10,678. Is a large quantity of fish used for the diet of the
fishermen?-I believe there is in summer time, and also
when it can be got in winter.
10,679. Would you say that that is the principal article of diet
along with the oatmeal?-I should say that fish and potatoes were
the principal articles of diet.
10,680. Is butcher meat sometimes used by them?-I believe it is
very seldom.
10,681. But with fish, potatoes, meal, bread, and biscuits, the
population of the island are supplied to a sufficient extent?-Yes.
10,682. And they are more than amply supplied with tea?-I think
so.
10,683. Has there been an improvement on the houses within your
time?-I think there has. We tried to make the houses, when we
were building new ones, better than the old ones were.
10,684. Are new houses upon the estates here generally built by
the proprietor?-Always, except when sometimes a man takes a
small bit of hill or scattald, and then he will make a small house
for himself.
10,685. Is that often done?-Not often.
10,686. Is that the origin of many of the houses now existing?-In
some parts of Shetland I think it is, but I don't think it is to a large
extent in Unst.
10,687. In Unst the houses are more commonly built by the
proprietors?-Yes; because there are not in Unst a great
proportion of what are called offsets-places which have been
taken in from the bill.
10,688. The island has been longer under cultivation?-I think so.
10,689. Then you cannot speak generally of the character of the
house accommodation throughout Shetland?-I cannot.
10,690. Would you think that here it is rather better than in other
places?-I think so. Unst houses are generally built 28 feet by 12,
and about 7 feet high and they contain two rooms. They are built
with stone and clay, harled with lime, and covered with thatch and
turf.
10,691. In Unst I suppose the houses now have generally
chimneys?-Yes, mostly-one in each house.
10,692. Is it in the middle?-No, it is at one end and many of them
have still an open fire at the kitchen end, sometimes in the middle,
and sometimes at the gable; but we have built chimneys to some of
the tenants in both ends.
10,693. Where there is an open fire, what is the exit for the
smoke?-It goes through holes in the thatch left there for the
purpose. These holes are left for air, and to allow the smoke to
go out.
10,694. Was that the ordinary character of the Shetland houses
until lately?-I think so.
10,695. There were no chimneys?-No.
10,696. Are the windows generally glazed now?-Yes; but in
many of the old houses they had no windows.
10,697. Do some of these houses still exist in Unst?-I don't know
any now, but there may be some for anything I know.
10,698. Are there any in other parts of Shetland?-I have seen
them in more remote parts of Northmaven, but that may be a year
or two ago.
10,699. You cannot say whether that is a common style of house in
other parts of Shetland?-I cannot.
10,700. Have you any observations to make upon the printed
evidence that was given in Edinburgh?-I think not.
Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, Rev. WILLIAM SMITH, examined.
10,701. You have been for some time the clergyman of this
parish?-For nearly three years.
10,702. During that time you have been a good deal among the
people, and you are acquainted with the system that prevails of
long payments of wages, and of running accounts?-I am
acquainted with that from conversations with the men.
10,703. Have you formed any opinion as to the effect of that
system on the character of the people in general?-[Page 261] I
have. I think the present system has a very deteriorating effect
upon the character of the people generally. I quite agree with what
Mr. Edmonstone has said in that respect. There seems to be a
great want of self-reliance, owing to the present system.
10,704. The men are in the habit of looking to the merchants to
help them through bad season?-Yes, they are in the habit of
looking to the merchants and others.
10,705. And I suppose they are not generally disappointed in that
reliance?-Not so far as I am aware.
10,706. But you consider that that is not a wholesome thing?-I
think it is not. I have had experience of the same class of people,
living under a different system, and I have formed a decided
opinion in favour of the cash system of payments as compared
with the credit system which is carried on here.
10,707. Was your experience in that matter in Orkney?-Yes;
among the same class of people.
10,708. Were the employments of the people of the same character
there?-Their employments were similar, to a certain extent.
Further, I find very often a want of ready cash among the people,
and complaints are often made to me of a want of money for
payment of school fees and other matters. I found, in speaking to
one of the present proprietors, that his uncle had at one time from
£500 to £600 of savings deposited in his hands by his tenantry, but
now, so far as is known, there is little or nothing of that kind.
10,709. Do you think there is no saving?-I don't hear of it.
10,710. May it not be that the savings are deposited in another
quarter?-It may be, unknown to me, and I have no doubt there is
money in possession of many of the people, but of course they
endeavour to keep that secret as far as possible; and I think there
is a want of confidence between the tenantry and proprietors
generally, owing to the present system.
10,711. How has the present system produced a want of
confidence between the people and the proprietors?-The
cause of that has been already explained in great measure by
previous witnesses. There is, as has been already remarked, a
monopoly here. There are small traders to whom their money
would go, and they don't do what is proper, I think, to the firm
who employs them. I have met them bringing goods from these
small traders, which they were morally bound to have got from
the larger merchants when their names were upon the books of
these merchants. Hence there is an endeavour at concealment very
often as to what they really have, and a want of proper faith.
10,712. Do you mean that a person who is indebted to one of the
larger merchants is tempted to sell some of his stock to other
people?-I don't say that he is tempted, but that such cases have
often happened.
10,713. You mean that a man often sells his stock, or anything
he has to sell, such as butter and eggs, to a small merchant, rather
than to the large one to whom he is indebted?-Exactly.
10,714. Does he get money from the small merchant in that
case?-I don't know that he does; but the impression is generally
prevalent, that they may get goods of the same class from the
smaller merchant at a lower price, and I think the present credit
system does not enable the merchants who are in business here, to
sell articles with the same profit as merchants do elsewhere. I find
from my own experience that I can supply myself with the same
goods at a less cost by bringing them from a considerable distance
south, and by paying the expenses of the carriage, than I can buy
them here. I think it would work better for all parties, both
proprietors, fish-curers, and tenants, if such a system of money
payments as has been suggested could be introduced.
10,715. Can you state whether it is universally the case, that
persons in Shetland in the rank of clergyman or small proprietor
do obtain their supplies out of Shetland?-That is invariably the
practice, so far as I am aware.
10,716. Is that in consequence of a difference in price and quality,
or only in consequence of a difference in the price of the goods?-
It is in consequence of a difference both in quality and price.
10,717. Do you speak as to that matter from your own
experience?-I do.
10,718. Is there any other matter which you are prepared to speak
about with reference to this inquiry?-There is one thing to which
Mr. Edmonstone referred which I think is of some importance. I
think that if proprietors were letting their holdings directly to the
tenants, the tenants and proprietors coming into contact as they do
elsewhere, and the proprietor evincing in that way a greater
interest in his tenantry, the result might be a considerable benefit.
For one thing, there might be an improved class of dwellings. I
find a great want of proper arrangement in the dwellings here, and
a proper division of the sexes, and to that I attribute in a great
measure the amount of illegitimacy and immorality which
prevails. I don't think the houses which are occupied by the
common class of people here are equal to these occupied by
people of the same rank of life in other parts of the country. I
have seen several houses here which are at present without
windows, unless a pane of glass let into the roof may be called
such. At the same time, I think the people themselves might do a
very great deal towards improving their dwellings, provided they
were receiving weekly or monthly wages, as the case might be, in
prosecuting the fishing, and if they were encouraged to exercise
greater self-reliance.
10,719. Have you known cases in which parties have been led into
debt greater than they could liquidate, by the present system of
long settlements?-I have. I have come personally into contact
with such cases.
10,720. Have the people consulted you in their difficulties?-They
have; and I am aware personally of fishermen having contracted
debts which their survivors could not possibly liquidate. In the
case of men who have lost their lives by accident, I have known
that the firm by whom these men were employed have lost
considerably: that, I had reason to believe was in consequence of
the present system; and it was almost beyond the power of the
widows and children to liquidate the debt which had been
contracted.
10,721. In such a case, is there no system of insurance existing, by
which the Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund or some other society,
comes to the aid of these widows and children?-I regret that
there is not. I am aware that the men have been encouraged to
contribute by the agents of the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society, but
they have not availed themselves of it as I think they ought to have
done.
10,722. Are there no agents for that Society in the island?-There
are two or three of them, two at least. One is in the merchants'
office and one is not; there may be others.
10,723. But the men don't take advantage of that?-They do not,
to the extent which they ought.
10,724. So that, in the case of a boat accident of that sort, resort
must be had, if the widows are destitute, either to poor-law relief
or to public subscriptions?-Exactly.
10,725 In another part of Shetland I have had some evidence given
with regard to the appropriation of such subscriptions to pay debts
due by the fishermen who were lost. Are you aware of any such
cases having occurred in Unst?-I have been applied to in that
way when I was in charge of funds, but I have refused to make
use of the funds for that purpose, because I did not think that,
conscientiously, it was my duty to appropriate them in that way.
10,726. You mean that you have been asked to apply funds so
subscribed to liquidate a debt due to the fish-merchant?-I have.
10,727. But your opinion was that the subscribers had not intended
the fund to be applied for such a purpose?-Certainly it was.
10,728. Is there any further statement you wish to make?-I
should wish to remark that if a cash system were introduced, it
would not only have a beneficial effect generally upon the
community, but it would apply to [Page 262] all transactions
between the merchants and the people generally, so that no
negotiations between the merchants and people should take
place unless in cash. I mean to say, that where widows are
paid annuities, and where pensioners receive their quarterly or
half-yearly allowances, these should be paid in cash. I don't
attribute the fact that they are not paid in cash at present to any
design upon the part of the merchants at all, but I think it is the
result of a system which has been long continued here, and which I
think is very much to be regretted.
10,729. Do you mean that any custom prevails according to which
annuities of that kind are not paid in cash?-Such a custom does
prevail.
10,730. What sort of annuities do you refer to?-I refer to
annuities allowed to widows by Anderson's Trust, founded by the
late Mr. Anderson, M.P., and I refer to allowances which are paid
by the Inland Revenue to pensioners under the paymaster for the
northern district of Inverness. I believe that such pensioners do
receive payment of their pensions in goods. Of course that may be
done by consent of the pensioners themselves. I don't say that it is
done by design of the merchants, but I am aware that it does take
place.
10,731. Who is the agent in these cases through whom the funds
are payable?-The collecting supervisor of Excise at Lerwick.
10,732. Through what channel does he pay the annuities which
you refer to in Unst?-Through the merchants, as a convenience to
himself.
10,733. He remits the money to the merchants, and the annuities
are taken out in goods?-Exactly.
10,734. Are they credited in the accounts which are run by the
annuitants?-The annuities are very often taken out to nearly the
full extent of what they have to receive before their money comes.
10,735. Are you in possession of that information from the
annuitants themselves?-I am. I think it is part of the general
system which prevails, to pay in that way. The people have
gradually drifted into it, and seem to look upon it as something
quite natural and reasonable. They have not been accustomed to
anything else. I have also met in with cases of men receiving
payment of days' wages by lines upon the shop, instead of
receiving a payment in cash and attribute that to the very same
thing.
10,736. In these cases where days' wages were paid in goods, were
the men working for a farmer, or to the shopkeeper himself?-No,
they were working for contractors upon buildings.
10,737. Is it the case that there is sometimes considerable
difficulty in making such payments in cash in Shetland from the
scarcity of silver money?-I have no doubt there is often some
difficulty in that way but I am never at a loss for silver money if I
have to make any payments to labourers or others, because I can
get a cheque cashed in silver by any small merchant to the extent
of £15 or £20 at almost any time. At least I have met with such
cases. I have not applied to the larger merchants for cash on such
occasions, but I have been offered silver to that extent by a small
merchant.
10,738. Would there be any difficulty in getting change of a
pound at a large merchant's shop?-Yes, I have met with such a
difficulty.
10,739. Why?-From the want of silver.
10,740. Is that because they transact their business to such a large
amount by barter?-Yes; I attribute the want of silver, to a large
extent, to that.
10,741. Are you expressing that opinion from a single instance, or
from a variety of cases?-From repeated instances happening
within my own experience in which I have not been able to get
change. I have not been able to get change at a large shop, but
very frequently I have got it at the smaller shops. The general
opinion is that a greater amount of the silver coin is to be found
with these smaller merchants than at the larger shops, and in that
opinion I quite concur.
10,742. Are you speaking now of what you know to be the general
opinion, or of what you have found to be the case in your general
experience?-I am speaking of what I know to be the case from
my own experience.
10,743. Have you formed any opinion as to the effect of this
system upon the truthfulness and uprightness of the Shetland
character?-I have formed the opinion that it has a very bad
effect indeed upon the straightforwardness and truthfulness of
the character of the people in this part of Shetland, for of course
I have, had no experience elsewhere. I have found among the
younger portion of the population generally a desire or at least a
tendency, not to be so straightforward as one would wish.
10,744. How does that arise from the system?-I think it arises
from it in this way?-Very often a fisherman or his wife may be
taking their produce to a small merchant, under the impression that
they will get a better bargain there than from a larger merchant;
and there is a general desire to conceal what their possessions may
be. I have found by experience that I have been imposed upon in
one or two instances with regard to that.
10,745. But do you think that has occurred in more instances than
would have occurred in any other parish in Scotland?-I do think
so. I think that one great evil of the present system arises from the
people not feeling the value of what they purchase, because they
get it on credit here, and are led to use what the same class of
people do not use elsewhere. For instance, they use a great deal of
tea and fine flour, and fancy biscuits and preserves, and other
things of that kind. I think that has a very deleterious effect upon
the people themselves, because it encourages prodigality, and the
same earnings would go much further if laid out on different and
more wholesome fare.
10,746. Do you think they take these things because they get them
on credit?-They get them on credit; and my belief is, they do not
feel it so much as if they were paying ready money for them.
10,747. You mean they do not feel it except once a year?-Yes;
and I believe they would think more about it if they had to pay for
them in ready cash.
10,748. Your knowledge with regard to the payment of annuities
and pensions. I presume arises from the fact that you have in
many cases to sign a certificate before the annuitant or pensioner
is entitled to receive payment?-Yes.
10,749. You have to certify that the parties are living, and that you
know them?-Yes.
10,750. Is there any other thing you wish to add?-Not that I
remember just now.
Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, ROBERT GRAY, examined.
10,751. Are you a fisherman here?-I am. I fish to Mr. Sandison
at the station.
10,752. Where do you live?-I live at Snarravoe.
10,753. You have heard the evidence to-day, and you desire to
come forward and make some statement yourself with regard to
the advances of meal you have received from Messrs. Spence &
Co?-Yes. I wish to say that if I had not been advanced by them
in two bad years, I must have starved with my family, because, I
did not have the means with which to buy supplies.
10,754. Were you in debt to Spence & Co. at the beginning of the
two bad years?-Yes.
10,755. And you continued to fish for them?-Yes.
10,756. Have you got further into debt during late years, or have
you cleared any of your debt off?-I have got a little out of debt,
because I had some cattle to spare, and I had a bigger fishing; but
at the time when I had nothing with which to support my family
they supported us and paid my rent too.
10,757. On whose property do you live?-On Major Cameron's
property.
10,758. Then you paid your rent to him?-I paid my rent to him
until Spence & Co. took me into their service.
[Page 263]
10,759. Who did you fish for formerly?-Captain Cameron kept
the fishing when he was alive, and I fished for him, and at other
times I just fished for the man that I got the best bargain from.
10,760. But at one time Captain Cameron held you bound to fish
for himself?-Yes.
10,761. You now take your supplies from Spence & Co?-Yes;
and I could not be better supplied than I have been by them.
10,762. You don't deal anywhere else?-No, except for any small
thing which I require; and if I have a penny or so I go into any
shop and buy.
10,763. Do you get any cash in the course of the year?-I get it
when I ask for it.
10,764. How much have you asked for?-I never could ask for
much because I was in debt, and I am in debt yet; but when I asked
for a little, I got it at any time.
10,765. I suppose you have some money passing through your
hands at times?-It is not very much. I went south some years ago
and I had no money, and I wrote to those people to supply my
family while was south, and they gave them what they required.
10,766. Is that all you wish to say?-Yes.
Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, ALEXANDER SANDISON, recalled.
10,767. Do you wish to say anything further?-Yes. The reason
why the big shops have no change is, that they are daily paying for
produce and advances to their fishermen, and change is very much
wanted. I have often had to issue small checks for want of change
promising to pay them when I got the change.
10,768. Is there any other person here who wishes to give evidence
or to make any statement? [No answer] Then I adjourn the sitting
here until further notice.
<Adjourned>.