BALTASOUND, UNST: FRIDAY, JANUARY 19, 1872.

<Present>-MR. GUTHRIE.

JOAN OGILVY, examined.

9731. Have you been in the habit of knitting with your own

worsted?-Yes; at times with my own worsted, and at times

with worsted from other people.

9732. When you knit with your own worsted, do you spin it

yourself?-No; sometimes I buy it, and sometimes other people

spin it for me; but it is not much that I do in that way. The most I

have made has been for other people.

9733. Do you not spin at all?-No; my mother spins a little and I

have knitted that and sold the hosiery.

9734. At what shops do you buy worsted here?-I have not bought

any, except a little, once, at John Johnston's shop. I paid 3d. a cut

for it in cash.

9735. Do they not give you worsted unless you pay for it in

money?-I never asked it.

9736. Have you never asked for worsted when you were selling

your hosiery?-No.

9737. Are you generally paid for your hosiery in goods?-Yes,

goods or other articles which I require such as tea and meal, and

other things.

9738. Do you sell most of your knitting to Mrs. Spence?-No. I

have sold nothing to her, except one half-shawl. I have sold a few

veils to John Johnston. They are very fine veils that I knit, and I

get 1s. 6d. for each of them.

9739. Are you always paid for them in goods?-No. I have got

cash. I knit superior articles, and I have sometimes got as much

as 30s. for knitting one silk shawl. That was not the price of the

shawl: it was merely for the knitting.

9740. But when you sell a shawl made by yourself, what do you

get for it?-I sold one worsted shawl in May in John Johnston's

shop, for which I got 19s. 6d. I did not ask for any cash, because

it was not the custom to give it.

9741. Is it the custom here to pay for hosiery in nothing but

goods?-I get cash at times.

9742. Are your shawls generally worth about 20s.?-No; I have

sold half-shawls at 16s., and others at 15s. and 14s.

9743. What was the largest sum you ever got in money when you

sold a shawl of that value?-15s.; that was the whole price of it,

but that was some years back, and I sold it to a lady.

9744. But when you sold to a merchant have you ever got the

whole price in money?-No; I never asked it.

9745. Do you get a higher price for your work when you take it in

goods than when you get money for it?-I don't think so.

9746. You said you sold a shawl in May last for 19s. 6d., and got

the price all in goods. Suppose you had asked payment for that

shawl in money, would you have asked the same price for it?-

Yes, but I would not have got it. They would not have give cash

for it.

9747. Would you not have got 2s. 6d. less in money?-I did not

ask for it in that way.

9748. Would you have sold that shawl for 17s. if you had got

money?-I think so.

9749. Would you rather have had the 17s. in money than the 19s.

6d. in goods?-I don't think I would have been any better.

9750. Did you want the goods?-Yes.

9751. Would you not have got them cheaper if you had had the

cash in your hand to pay for them?-I might have got them a little

cheaper.

9752. Do you think you would always be willing to sell your

hosiery goods a little cheaper if you were paid in cash instead of

in goods?-I don't think I would. The price is low enough, even

with the goods payment.

9753. When you get the worsted given out to you, are you paid in

money or in goods for knitting it?-Sometimes in money and

sometimes in goods, just as I ask it.

9754. For whom do you knit in that way?-I have knitted some for

Mrs. Spence. I knit fine silk for her, not Shetland worsted. I got

30s. for knitting one shawl for her, and 25s. for another; but these

were very fine ones, and of large size. It took me a long time to

work them. She paid me for these in cash.

9755. Did she hand you over the money, or did she send you down

to the shop for it?-She gave me the money with her own hand.

9756. Did she do so in both cases?-Yes; part of it, and part I took

a little goods for, just as suited myself.

9757. How much of the 30s. did she hand you over in cash?-I

cannot say exactly now, because it is more than a year ago.

9758. Did she give you a half of it in cash?-More than that.

9759. How did you get the rest in goods? Did you go to the shop

for them?-No. They were brought from Lerwick for me. They

were women's cloth jackets.

9760. Were you to sell these in your own shop?-I have no shop.

9761. Did you not sell groceries?-No. I had a little goods at one

time to sell for a man in Lerwick, but I have none now. I gave out

hosiery to the girls, and when they brought it back I served them

with the goods which I had got from the man in Lerwick.

9762. Who was he?-Peter Edward Petrie.

9763. Does he deal in hosiery?-Yes.

9764. And does he deal in groceries in Lerwick?-He has given up

his shop, but he dealt there at one time in soft goods and tea.

9765. How much cash did you get from Mrs. [Page 237] Spence

for the 25s. shawl?-I don't remember; it is two years ago.

9766. Have you sold some things to Mrs. Spence since?-No; but

I have always knitted some things for her. The last was a fine

worsted shawl. I took it to her about a month ago. I think the

price would be 12s., but I have not settled with her yet.

9767. Do you keep an account with her?-She keeps an account

for me herself.

9768. Have you not got any part of the price of that shawl?-The

price is not settled, but I have got some goods for it.

9769. Do you sometimes take a line from her?-No; I have had no

lines from her.

9770. Is that because there is an account for you in her books, and

you don't need them?-I suppose so.

9771. When you want goods do you go to the shop and get

them?-Yes, I get them from her.

9772. Does she attend in the shop?-I believe she does at times,

but she does not keep the things there which she supplies to us.

The things for the knitting come from Lerwick.

9773. She just enters these things against you in your account, and

then she enters in your favour the shawls which you make, and she

balances now and then?-Yes.

9774. How often do you settle your account with her?-Not often.

I have not had a great deal of goods from her.

9775. Have you got any money at all from her for what you have

knitted?-Yes; but I could not say how much, because I did not

think of keeping an account of it.

9776. Will you knit £2 or £3 worth to her in the course of a

year?-I did that when I was knitting for her, and perhaps it little

more.

9777. How much of that would you get in money?-I would get it

all from her if I asked it. I have got £2 a time from her.

9778. Was that for knitting, or for a shawl that you were selling?-

It was for knitting.

9779. Did you want the money to pay your rent?-Yes, partly, and

partly for other things.

9780. Do you know that Mrs. Spence always gives you goods for

your knitting which she gets from Lerwick?-Yes, when I ask

them; but when I ask for cash I get it.

9781. But you do not often ask for cash?-I have oftener asked

cash from her than from any other person and she always gave it to

me because she knew I could not do without it.

9782. Are you a finer knitter than ordinary?-Yes. I make very

good articles.

9783. Do you sometimes knit a shawl for a special order?-Yes.

9784. Do you sometimes make a bargain then that you are to be

paid in cash for it?-Yes.

9785. Do you think the price is less when you make bargain that

you are to be paid in money than when you take it out in goods?-

No, it is not less.

9786. Would you not sell a shawl for it less price if you knew you

were to get it in money than if you knew you were only to be paid

in goods?-I might have 1s. less, but not much less.

9787. Have you never got a line from Mrs. Spence, or from any

shop here?-No. I have got no lines since the late Mrs. Dr.

Edmonstone died. I knitted for her, and sometimes I got cash

from her, and sometimes lines for goods on the shop.

9788. But that was some time ago?-Yes.

9789. Do you sometimes knit for John Johnston?-Yes. I get

worsted from him to knit, and I take it back to him again. I have

got 10s. from him for knitting a shawl of 27 scores: that is an

ordinary size. I got none of that in money. I never asked it from

him. He keeps a shop, and therefore I don't ask him for money.

9790. Then why do you ask Mrs. Spence for money? Is it because

she does not keep a shop?-She only keeps soft goods.

9791. And you are not always wanting soft goods?-No.

9792. Do you do anything besides knitting?-I work at the harvest,

and at other kinds of work. I have it very small farm of my own.

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, Mrs. JANET ROBERTSON,

examined.

9793. Are you in the habit of knitting?-Yes.

9794. Do you knit with your own worsted?-No; the worsted is

given out to me.

9795. Who do you generally knit for?-Mrs. Spence.

9796. Do you do a great deal of fine work for her?-Yes.

9797. How do you receive payment?-In goods and money. I get

money when I want it, but it is generally in goods. I get supplies in

the shop upon a line which Mrs. Spence gives me. I take the line

to the shop at once and get what goods or provisions I require.

9798. Does Mrs. Spence take the shawl from you and give you a

line in her own house, which is beside the shop?-Yes.

9799. Then you go with the line into the shop and get what goods

you want?-Yes. The line is addressed to Messrs. Spence & Co.,

and signed by her, and the which is due is written upon it.

9800. Is that always the way in which you are paid?-Yes.

9801. How often do you go with work to Mrs. Spence?-Perhaps

once a month; just when my work is finished.

9802. Have you generally 15s. or 20s. to get?-Perhaps from 10s.

to 12s.

9803. How much do you get for knitting a shawl of fine

worsted?-The highest is 12s. There are thirty-three cuts of

worsted given out to me for knitting a shawl of 30 scores. I

think the price of the worsted is 3d. or 4d. a cut, but I never

bought any myself.

9804. When you do not get provisions or groceries, but take soft

goods for your knitting, do you go to the shop for them, or do you

get them from Mrs. Spence herself?-I get them from the shop.

9805. Have you knitted for any person except Mrs. Spence?-I

have done a little for John Johnston; but I am paid in the same way

there, in goods.

9806. Do you get no lines there?-No.

9807. You just take the article to the shop and get the goods you

want?-Yes.

9808. How do you manage when you are to pay your rent?-I have

no rent to pay. I have a house of my own.

9809. Do you keep an account with any of the shops?-No.

9810. Do you always get your provisions from Spence & Co.'s at

Haroldswick?-Yes.

9811. What do you pay for tea?-10d. and 1s. per quarter.

9812. What do you pay for your meal?-1s. 4d. a peck. It is 1s.

5d. just now.

9813. What do you pay for a half-loaf?-5d.

9814. Is that brought from Lerwick?-Yes.

9815. What do you pay for unbleached cotton?-10d.; but I have

not bought it for some time back. There is some of it at 6d., but

not of such a good quality. The cotton at 6d. is half-bleached. I

bought that half-bleached cotton in summer, and I am sure I paid

6d. a yard for it.

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, JOHN LAURENSON, examined.

9816. You are a fisherman at Burrafirth?-I am.

9817. You hold a bit of land there?-Yes, from Mr. Edmonstone

of Buness.

9818. What rent do you pay?-£5.

9819. Are you bound to fish for any person in particular?- [Page

238] Not that I know of, but I fish for Spence & Co. I have fished

for them since they commenced business, and before that to Mr.

David Edmonstone, when he was carrying on business in that way.

9820. Have you fished for any other person in Unst?-Yes. I

fished first for the late Mr. Thomas Edmonstone of Buness, and

then for Mr. Samuel Hunter.

9821. Have you always been free to fish for any person you

chose?-I don't think so. When I was a tenant to the late Mr.

Edmonstone of Buness I fished for him, and when Mr. Hunter got

a tack of the land I fished for him, but I could not tell exactly

whether I was free to fish for any other person or not.

9822. You don't know what would have happened to you if you

had sold your fish to anybody else?-I do not.

9823. But now you can fish for any person you please?-I believe

I can.

9824. Is there any other person except Spence & Co. to whom you

can sell your fish here?-There is no one in our quarter except Mr.

John Johnston. He does a little in the fish way, but we don't sell

any to him.

9825. Do most of the people hereabout fish for Spence & Co., and

settle with them every winter?-Yes.

9826. Have you settled with them for last year?-Yes, I settled

about 10th January at Haroldswick.

9827. Have you a pass-book?-No.

9828. Have you an account in their books?-Yes.

9829. Is that read over to you, or do you know the balance

yourself?-It is read over on the day of settlement.

9830. Have you a note of the articles you have got?-No.

9831. Then how do you know that your account is correct?-I

have never found anything wrong with regard to the articles which

I had got, and I was quite satisfied they were all correct.

9832. Did you remember that you had got all the articles, and the

price of them, when they were read over to you?-Yes.

9833. Did you order them?-Yes; I either got them myself or some

member of my family brought them home.

9834. But are you sure that you can recollect perfectly well both

the articles you got, and the quantities, and the prices?-Yes;

when the account is read over to me I can.

9835. When you get a thing out of the shop, do you always know

the price of it?-Yes.

9836. You ask the price, and you are told what it is at the time

when you buy it?-Yes.

9837. Do you get all your supplies there?-Yes; unless perhaps a

very little which we may buy from some other shop.

9838. Do you sometimes buy at Johnston's shop?-Yes, but very

little.

9839. Do you pay for that at the time?-Yes.

9840. You have not an account with Johnston?-No.

9841. I suppose most of your neighbours have an account with

Spence & Co. and get the most of their supplies from them?-Yes.

9842. Do none of them deal with other shops in the district?-I am

not able to say what they do.

9843. What was the price of meal at Spence & Co.'s shop during

the past year?-1s. 5d. per 8 lbs. I think it was the same price for

almost the whole year. I rather think it was 1s. 4d. once, but I

cannot say.

9844. Have you got meal from any other shop?-Yes, from Mr.

Isbister. The price there was 1s. 4d.

9845. Did you pay for that in cash?-Yes.

9846. Was the meal of the same quality?-Yes.

9847. Do you buy any soft goods from Spence & Co.'s shop?-

Yes, I buy white cotton for making oilskin clothes and shirts. We

pay from 41/2d. to 8d., according to the quality of the cotton. It is

generally unbleached cotton that we buy.

9848. Do you oil it and make it waterproof yourself?-Yes.

9849. Who do you pay your rent to?-To Spence & Co. They pay

it to Mr. Edmonstone for me.

9850. Do you mean that it is put down in your account with them

against you?-Yes.

9851. How do they pay it to Mr. Edmonstone?-In cash, I

suppose; but I don't know anything about that.

9852. They don't give you a line to Mr. Edmonstone?-No.

9853. Do you get receipts for your rent?-Yes, if we ask for them.

9854. But you don't generally ask for them?-No.

9855. Have you generally a balance to get at the end of the year, or

is the balance against you?-The balance is against me at present,

and it has been against me since the first year of the company in

consequence of bad fishings and bad crops.

9856. What boat hire do you pay?-£2, 14s. for the boat, or 9s. per

man. I buy my own lines. I get them at fishing time, and they are

marked into the account. The price is from 2s. 3d. to 3s. per line,

according to the weight of the lines. I require ten ground lines and

a line for a buoy rope.

9857. Does each man require that number?-Yes.

9858. Do you pay about 24s. for the ten lines?-Yes; and then we

have to furnish these lines with smaller lines and hooks. If they

are all new, the cost of lines and hooks will be about 30s. per man

for what we call a weight of lines.

9859. How do you settle for them?-We settle for them along with

all the rest of our accounts on the day of settlement. The whole

account is read over and summed up together, and then the rent is

brought forward, and the whole dealings put in. Our earnings are

placed on the credit side of the page, and then balance is struck in

our favour, or against us, as case may be.

9860. Are all the lines charged against you one year?-Yes.

9861. When you buy the lines at the beginning of the fishing

season, there is no arrangement that the price of them is to be

charged against, the next three years, and that you are to pay them

by instalments?-No.

9862. Do you return the lines at the end of the season?-No; we

keep them. They will perhaps serve for three seasons; or if the

lines are really good, they may do for four.

9863. Then you will have nothing to pay for lines the second year

if you have paid them up in the first year?-If we have paid them

up we have nothing to pay afterwards.

9864. Do you usually manage to pay up your lines in the first

year?-We generally pay what we can when we settle. What we

have over from the fishing is just put to the payment of the whole

that we are due.

9865. Are there any other fishing expenses excepting the boats and

lines?-Yes; the hooks and tomes, or small lines, have always to

be put in repair.

9866. Do you pay for them?-Yes; we buy the whole of them, and

we repair the tomes and hooks ourselves.

9867. Then that is not an additional expense?-No.

9868. Do you ever get any cash advanced to you from Spence &

Co.?-At times I get a few shillings.

9869. How long is it since you began to fish for them?-I have

fished for Mr. Spence since 1857, and for Spence & Co. in 1868,

1869, 1870, and 1871.

9870. Have you ever got anything more than four shillings in

cash?-No, not in cash.

9871. Have you any taxes or poor-rates to pay?-Yes; the

poor-rates are charged by Mr. White, the inspector and collector,

and they are paid in cash.

9872. Do you draw that from your account with the company, or

how do you raise the cash for it?-I get a little cash from the

company to pay my poor-rates.

9873. Do you sell any stock off your farm?-Yes, when I have a

cow I sell it. I cannot sell one every year; I have not so many as

that.

9874. Have you no other beasts but cows?-No.

[Page 239]

9875. Who did you sell your last cow to?-The last I sold to the

company; it was a three-year-old quey. It was taken to the sale in

May 1871, and I got 9s., which was put to my account. I got no

money.

9876. Did you ever get money for any of the stock you have sold

during the last five years?-No.

9877. Were they always put into your account?-Yes.

9878. Did you always sell them to Spence & Co.?-I sold them to

Mr. David Edmonstone. I sold nothing to the company except that

quey.

9879. Why did you sell them to Mr. Edmonstone?-They were put

down towards my rent.

9880. Then you did not pay your rent at that time through Spence

& Co.?-No; I was not fishing for them then. I sold a fat cow to

Mr. David Edmonstone since I began to fish for Spence, to pay a

balance which I was due him. These are all the cattle I have had to

sell.

9881. Have you not sold any other stock except these two cattle for

the last five or six years?-No.

9882. Is there any other way you have of getting money except by

selling your stock and your fish?-No.

9883. Then you will not have much money passing through your

hands?-No, very little.

9884. Will you have £1 in your hands in the course of a year?-I

could hardly say, because I don't take particular note of how many

twopences or sixpences pass through my hands.

9885. But will you have £1 at a time?-No; I have not had £1 at a

time.

9886. Have you had 10s.?-Yes; I have had that.

9887. Do you sometimes sell your winter fish?-Yes.

9888. Do you get money for them?-Yes, if we ask it.

9889. Who do you sell them to?-To Spence & Co.

9890. Are you generally paid in money for your winter fish?-A

little money and some goods.

9891. But these are settled for at the time?-They do not enter

your account at all.

9892. Would you get the whole price of your winter fish in cash if

you asked for it?-I believe I would; but I could not say, because I

have never asked the whole of it in that way.

9893. Why have you never asked it?-Because I thought the goods

were just the same from their shop as from any other place, and I

did not think of asking them for money with which to go to any

other place and purchase goods.

9894. Did you think you would not have got it all if you had asked

for it in cash?-I cannot say, because I never did ask it; but I think

I would have got it if I had asked them, so far as I know.

9895. Are you quite content to go on in this way without getting

your money into your own hands?-I should like to get all my own

money into my own hands if I could.

9896. You say you think you could have got the money for your

winter fish if you had asked it?-I think I could.

9897. Then why did you not ask for it if you would like to have

your money?-For the reason I have mentioned: that I thought the

goods were the same in their shop as in any other place and

therefore I did not ask it.

9898. Then why do you want the money?-Because if I had

the money, I would perhaps buy my goods somewhere else, if I

thought I could get them cheaper or better.

9899. Have you any fault to find with the quality of the goods you

get at their shop?-Sometimes I think the meal is not very good.

Flour was sometimes 1s. 3d., and it was not very good.

9900. Did you ever try any other flour?-Yes; I got a little from

other places. It was not very much that I could buy, but I got flour

at other shops which was of superior quality.

9901. What did you pay for it?-About 1s. 4d or 1s. 5d.

9902. Then that was it little dearer than the flour you got at the

company's shop?-Yes; I got it at Mr. Johnston's.

9903. Would you not have got as good flour at the company's shop

if you had paid a higher price for it?-Yes; they had good flour at

1s. 6d.

9904. But you cannot complain of them giving you a worse quality

of flour at a lower price?-No.

9905. Was the meal the same as you get at any place for the same

sum?-It was 1d. per peck higher last summer.

9906. And you said it was not quite so good as you would like?-

That was the flour.

9907. I thought you said so about the meal also?-There were

some weeks when the meal was really good, and some weeks

when it was not so good.

9908. How did you get the money with which to purchase flour at

Johnston's?-We sold a few eggs or a little butter, and got it in

that way.

9909. You did not pay for it in money, but in eggs or butter?-

Yes.

9910. Is that it common way of selling your eggs and butter?-

Yes.

9911. You do not get money for them?-No.

9912. Why did you not take the eggs and butter to Spence & Co.'s

shop?-Because we sometimes thought of trying another place.

9913. Why did you not take your money for the winter fishing and

buy your provisions at another place if you thought you could get

them better?-Our earnings from it were very small; and for all

the money we had to get, it was not worth while to take it from

Spence & Co.'s shop and go to any other place with it, even

although we might have got our goods it little cheaper. I think all

my winter fishing only came to about 30s.

9914. How far do you live from the company's shop?-Nearly two

miles.

9915. Is Johnston's shop nearer to you?-Very little.

9916. Is there any other shop nearer?-No.

9917. Have you ever been asked to fish for any other person than

Spence & Co. since they began business?-No.

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, MAGNUS HENDERSON,

examined.

9918. You are a proprietor near Haroldswick?-Yes, a small

proprietor.

9919. You have been resident in Unst all your life?-Yes.

9920. You were at one time engaged in the fishing yourself, and

you know the system that is practised here?-Yes, so far.

9921. I presume the system of annual settlements has been one of

long continuance here?-Yes.

9922. The fishermen have also for a long time combined the

calling of farming with that of fishing?-Yes.

9923. They fish for about four months in the year, and are engaged

on their farms for the rest of the time?-Yes.

9924. How has the rent been usually paid to the landlord during

the last twenty or thirty years?-Very often the tenants have fished

for the landlord; and of course at the end of the year, when their

accounts were made up, the rent was taken into account along with

other matters.

9925. When they did not fish for their landlord, has there been

any arrangement between the landlord and the fish-merchant

for the payment of the rent?-Yes. In some cases, I suppose, the

fish-curers are bound to pay the rent to the landlord for the tenants

who fish for them.

9926. Are you aware whether there has been a written arrangement

of that kind between the landlord and the fish-merchants?-I am

not aware of that.

[Page 240]

9927. Of course, when the fish-merchant happens to be the

tacksman, that is it different case?-It is.

9928. But where the fish-merchant is not the tacksman, is it the

practice that he generally settles with the landlord for the rent?-I

think so, or he becomes accountable to the landlord for the amount

of the rent.

9929. Do you know whether the rent has been paid by means of

lines handed to the fishermen or tenants, or whether the merchant

just hands a cheque to the landlord for the amount of rent due by

all the fishermen?-I am not prepared to answer that.

9930. Has it been it universal practice in Unst, or anything like a

universal practice, for fishermen to deal at the shops kept by the

landlord or merchant for whom they fished?-That has generally

been the practice.

9931. Is there any understanding that they shall go to that shop for

their supplies?-There is such an understanding, but they are not

compelled to do so. Of course if a man is in debt, and has no

means with which to go to another shop, he is very thankful to get

his supplies from the merchant, and he has to get them on credit.

9932. And when he gets them on credit, the merchant is safe to get

paid by the fish if the men deliver their fish to him?-He gives

them credit, and he must take his chance of being paid when the

fish are delivered.

9933. I suppose a fisherman here does not wish very often to

change his residence and his place of fishing?-Not very often.

9934. But if he did happen to do so would not the fact of him

having an account with the merchant in the place prevent him

from shifting his quarters?-I don't know that it would.

9935. He might have an account standing against him here, and

would he not be bound to pay it?-Yes. He ought to pay it before

he shifted to another employer.

9936. And the merchant might raise an action against him if he

were to remove?-Yes, and if he could not pay his debt.

9937. Is that it thing of frequent occurrence?-No.

9938. Do you think that men are prevented from shifting to other

places, by the fact that they are in debt?-I don't know that they

are. I have not known any case of that within my own experience.

9939. Have you known cases where a man wanted to engage with

another merchant in the island, or in the neighbouring islands, and

who was unable to do so in consequence of being in debt to his

former employer?-No such case has come under my notice.

9940. Do you know whether it is usual, when a man does engage

with a new employer in that way, that the new employer takes over

and becomes responsible for any debt that has been standing in the

former employer's books?-They very often do that, but I don't

know if it is a general rule.

9941. Have you known cases of that sort occurring?-Yes.

9942. Pretty often?-Not very often, but I have known of some.

9943. Is that done at the request of the fishermen, or is it an

arrangement between the merchants?-I should think it was

arranged partly with the fishermen and partly with the merchants.

9944. You think the fisherman has no objection to it?-No.

9945. Do you think the condition and the character of the

fishermen in this district would be improved if cash payments

were the rule instead of these long settlements?-I could not say. I

have no doubt some would manage their affairs better if there

were cash payments, but some would manage them worse. There

are differences in the character of the men here, as everywhere

else.

9946. Do you not think that relying on the merchant for supplies if

a bad season comes, makes these fishermen a little more careless

in running up accounts?-In [som]e cases it does.

9947. They feel that the merchant is anxious to employ them, and

that if a bad season comes, and their debt is not beyond all bounds,

they are safe to get supplies for the season?-Yes; perhaps some

of them look too much to that.

9948. Is it a common complaint that the fishermen do not know

the price they are to get for their fish until the end of the season?-

Yes, they do not generally make any arrangement for the price

before then.

9949. Do you think that is a reasonable complaint?-I don't know.

I think that if the thing is conducted on just principles it is a good

thing for both parties, because the fishermen have the same chance

of being, benefited by a rising market as the merchant; but it been

a general thing to make no arrangement as to price until the fish

are sold.

9950. Have you known any cases in which the price has been fixed

at the beginning of the season?-I cannot say that I have known

any particular case of that kind.

9951. Do you think the fishermen would agree to an arrangement

fixing the price at the beginning of the season?-I think some of

them would; but perhaps some of them would rather allow it to

continue in the old way.

9952. Do you think they would not like to fish for so much weekly

wages, and so much additional at the end of the season according

to the market price?-I don't think they would. I think they would

be better satisfied to be paid in proportion to the amount of fish

they catch.

9953. Would it be possible to pay them in proportion to the

amount of fish they catch, and also to pay them at shorter times?-

It would be possible enough to do it, if they came to an agreement

as to the price per cwt. for green fish. If that were done, it would

be at the option of the fish-curers and the fishermen to make an

arrangement for paying at shorter periods.

9954. If they got their money in hand in that way, do you not think

that would lead them to be more independent than they are at

present?-It ought to do.

9955. Don't you think the settlement with the fishermen is delayed

too long after the fishing season is over?-I have no doubt it is

delayed long enough; but perhaps sometimes it is a long time

before the merchants get paid for their fish, and that may prevent

them from making the settlement earlier.

9956. Do you mean that the settlement is delayed until the

merchant realizes the price of his fish?-I understand that is

very often the case.

9957. So that, in that view, the merchant is really to some

extent trading on the fishermen's capital?-Yes, while it is in

his possession; but very often he has not a long time of it, because

I understand he generally sells his fish on credit, and it is some

time before he is paid.

9958. But a man who sells upon credit in that way requires some

capital to enable him to carry on his business?-Yes.

9959. And in this case it is really the fishermen's capital that is

being traded upon; that is to say, the fisherman has not received

payment for his fish, and that money which he ought to have

received for his fish is in the hands of the merchant?-But very

often a fisherman has taken up the amount of his fishing before the

settlement.

9960. He may have done so in goods?-Yes.

9961. Is that the case with most of them?-It is the case with a

good many, and some of them perhaps have overdrawn their

account.

9962. Then in that case the merchant is really advancing the price

of the fish in goods beforehand?-Yes.

9963. Would it not be as easy for the merchant, and better for the

fishermen to make the same advance to them in the course of the

season in cash?-I suppose so.

9964. Only the merchant has a profit on the goods under the

present system?-Of course he has.

9965. And in that case the merchant gets his upon the goods, but

the fisherman gets no interest on [Page 241] the money which he

lies out of until settlement?-Of course not.

9966. Therefore the merchant has the benefit both of the interest

on the fishermen's capital in his hand, and, in addition to that, the

profit upon the goods furnished to the fishermen?-Yes.

9967. And besides that, he is safe not to lose upon the

transactions of the year, not having the price fixed until his

sales are realized?-Yes. The only chance by which a merchant

sometimes loses is, that he advances a man further than the man's

earnings can meet.

9968. But he can do that or not, as he pleases?-Of course; but

there are sometimes cases where the fisherman requires a certain

amount of supplies. He cannot do without them, and if the fishing

is short then he is not able to meet them.

9969. Does it not strike you as being rather a one-sided

transaction, the fisherman gets no interest on his capital,

which is in the merchant's hands in the shape of the price

of his fish?-It is not very long there.

9970. It is there for four or five months, and in the meantime the

merchant is making a profit on the goods?-If the merchant could

turn over the fish when he gets them he might be able to pay the

men at once, but there is generally a long time between the time

when the fisherman delivers his fish and when they are brought to

market and the money paid. The fish take a long time to cure, and

the summer is often done before much of the fish can be sent to

market. Then the merchant generally sells at two or three months'

credit to the buyer, and it is that time before he can realize his

money.

9971. Do you know whether the merchants in Unst are in the habit

of dealing much in stock?-I don't know; there is generally a sale

once a year for the cattle, and any one who wishes to go to the sale

is at liberty to go. If any one wishes to dispose of his stock

privately to any one else, he is quite at liberty to do so.

9972. Who are the largest purchasers at the sales?-I cannot say,

for I have not been always there.

9973. Who conducts them?-An auctioneer from Lerwick, Mr.

Henry.

9974. Do you think a ready-money system would be any

improvement as regards the fishermen?-I think it would.

In fact a ready-money system in anything would be an

improvement over barter: at least it ought to be, but whether

it would or not I cannot say.

9975. Do you think that, in point of fact, the present system is one

of barter?-Yes.

9976. I suppose very little money passes into the hands of the

fishermen in the course of the year?-There is sometimes a good

deal. If a fisherman has money to get he always gets it, so far as I

am aware.

9977. That is to say, if he has a balance at the end of the year he

will get that?-Yes; and I presume that if a man has not a balance

he cannot well ask for anything.

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, ALEXANDER SANDISON,

examined.

9978. You are one of the partners of the firm of Spence & Co., and

you have been so since the formation of the company in 1868?-

Yes.

9979. Formerly you carried on business in your own name?-Yes,

in company with Messrs. Hay & Co. of Lerwick, at Uyea Sound.

9980. Was that a separate partnership from Messrs. Hay & Co.?-

Yes. I was manager there, and had a share of the business. It was

entirely distinct from their Lerwick business.

9981. In 1868 you entered into partnership with some other

gentlemen who had been carrying on a similar business in the

island of Unst?-Yes.

9982. And at that time, I understand, you took a lease from Major

Cameron of all his property in the island?-Almost the whole of it.

There was some of it on lease before, which we don't have.

9983. You have all his property, exclusive of the large farms held

on lease before?-Yes. We had two or three small farms let to us

on lease as well.

9984. Was that arrangement with Major Cameron embodied in a

written lease?-Yes.

9985. Have you got it here?-No. We have a copy of it at

Baltasound.

9986. By the terms of that lease, I understand there was no

obligation upon the tenants to fish for your firm?-No.

9987. And it was intimated to them at the time that they were at

perfect liberty to deliver their fish to any person?-I don't know if

it was intimated to them specially at the time; but I think Mr.

Walker told them so at one time when we wished him to meet the

tenants both in the north and south end of the island.

9988. What was the occasion of that meeting?-Just to explain to

them the nature of the improvements, and the connection between

us as the tenants and them as the sub-tenants.

9989. The tenants under that lease pay their rents to you

directly?-Yes.

9990. And they have no concern with the proprietor?-None.

9991. You are responsible for the rent stipulated by you to be

paid?-Yes; for rent, poor-rates, and taxes affecting the tenant.

9992. It is part of your arrangement with the landlord that you

shall superintend, and endeavour to get the tenants to carry out

certain improvements upon the estate?-Yes; we are bound under

the lease to carry out certain improvements.

9993. And a division of the lands has also taken place under that

arrangement?-Yes.

9994. Have you proceeded with these improvements to a

considerable extent?-Yes. We have got on remarkably well

with them; better than I expected when we first took it on. It

has been a very uphill job.

9995. Do you find that that improved system of farming is

compatible with the men continuing the occupation of

fishermen?-I think it is, on the small farms, because the

fisherman has a very great deal of spare time in winter, which

in former times he did not profitably employ, and he can do it

now on his farm to great advantage.

9996. Do you think it would not be possible in Shetland for the

men to follow the occupation of fishermen all the year round?-I

have given that subject most earnest thought. At one time I

thought it might, but latterly I have come to the conclusion that it

is not possible. In the first place, we have no fresh fish market

here, and it is impossible to get the fish into the south market in a

fresh state when they would command a high price. Then, in the

winter time the weather is so broken, and the seas round this coast

so boisterous, that it is almost impossible to go to the deep sea in

boats; and the fish that are caught near the shores in the sounds

and bays are in such limited quantity that they would not be nearly

sufficient to meet the man's daily wants. From the farm, however,

he has sufficient potatoes and milk for his family; and even on the

smallest farms he has, I should say, six months meal on the

average.

9997. But if the fishermen were supplied with a different kind of

boats, such as are used in other parts of Scotland, say of 32 feet

keel, such as are used at Wick, could they not go to sea in

winter?-I am afraid our fishermen would not take very kindly to

these boats.

9998. Perhaps not at first, but would they not do so after a certain

period of apprenticeship?-I think I would back six of our men

against six of the Wick men in their respective boats, and I would

expect our men to come on shore when the Wick men would be

drowned. I think the Wick boats are much too heavy in a sea, and

they are much more in danger of filling than our light skiffs are. I

remember on one occasion, on the north of Unst, when some of

our boats were out, and a gentleman's yacht was near them

dredging shells, he thought they could never come ashore, and

kindly ran down among them, thinking to render the assistance

[Page 242] but when he reached them he found they were far drier

than he was. He came in with some of his bulwarks washed away,

while they got safe ashore.

9999. Don't you think the weather is just as severe where these

Wick and Buckie boats fish as it is in this quarter?-I believe it is

as severe, but I don't know if the tides and currents are as rapid

and strong, because they have a longer stretch of coast. Off any

land end, the current is very strong and the sea runs very high, and

I think that nearly three-fourths of all the accidents that have

occurred in Shetland have occurred in crossing these springs of

tide,-strong currents going right against the wind, just inland, as

off the point of Unst, or the point of Sumburgh. It is not on the

ocean that our boats would be lost, but in taking the land and

crossing the tides near headlands.

10,000. If it were not for these dangerous tide-ways, would it be

possible for the men to go off to the haaf in winter if they had

proper boats for the purpose?-They could go off a certain

distance, but the day is very short here, and I don't think they

would have much chance with the long lines in a day of about

eight hours.

10,001. Has any attempt been made to introduce an extensive

system of winter fishing here?-I don't think any attempt has ever

been made, except in the spring on the west side at Scalloway and

east at Fetlar, where there are spawning beds apparently for the

ling. They come nearer into the land there in March and April,

and some attempts have been made at these places with our

ordinary boats.

10,002. But these are partial attempts, and have not been

continued?-They are conducted every year, but some years

they are very unsuccessful.

10,003. In settling with your fishermen, I understand you settle

with them at the different stations, at Uyea Sound, Baltasound,

and Haroldswick, quite separately?-At Uyea Sound the

settlements are quite distinct; at Baltasound and Haroldswick

they are combined. Some crews are settled for at Haroldswick,

but there is only one set of books at Baltasound.

10,004. Can you give me a general idea from recollection, to what

extent your fishermen are settled with in goods in the course of the

year? Will it be to the extent of one-fourth or one half of their

earnings?-Some men may take out not one-fourth, some may

take one-fourth, some a half, and some more than the whole.

10,005. Have you ever thought of striking an average?-I have

looked into my cash books several times in past years, and when

I have summed up the amount of green fish received at the price

agreed on and paid, I found that, as a general rule, at settling time

I paid in cash, either in rent, which is cash, or cash given into the

hands of the fishermen, fully two-thirds of the entire amount of

fish coming into my hands.

10,006. Do you think it would be possible to introduce any

system by which the settlement should not be made at such long

intervals?-I have considered the matter seriously since the Truck

Commission was first spoken about, and I have come to the settled

conviction that it would be very much for the curer to pay monthly

in cash.

10,007. Would that payment be according to the quantity of fish

delivered, or by way of wages, or partially both?-There are two

reasons why I think wages would not do. In the first place, the

fishermen would not like to take wages, because if they make a

good fishing they would not get so much as they do now; and, in

the second place, I am sorry to say that with the greater part of

them, if they got wages they would not fish half so much.

10,008. Then what system would you suggest?-I think the right

system is just to fix a price at the beginning of the year of so much

per cwt. for green fish, and pay it monthly or fortnightly in cash as

may be agreed upon.

10,009. Do you think it likely from your experience, that the

fishermen would agree to that?-Two years ago in North Yell,

when I settled with the fishermen there, I urged the men to take

cash payments, because we had no store there, and it was an

inconvenience for us to send goods. We had to employ a man

and pay him, which cost us something; but I found that they all

declined my proposal. In the same year, 1870, I tried to engage

our fishermen in the south of Unst and in Yell at a fixed price, and

I did so. Every fisherman who went out in the south end of Unst

and Yell that year was engaged at 7s, per cwt. I made that bargain

in December in writing; but when settling time came we could

afford to pay them 7s. 3d., and I did so, according to the previous

practice. I might have pocketed £30 by that transaction, but if I

had done so the fishermen would have thought I had treated them

dishonestly.

10,010. Were they going to grumble?-I have no doubt some of

them would have grumbled if they had not got the additional price.

I would not say that all of them would have grumbled, because

there are some of our fishermen who are very intelligent and very

reasonable men, and who would have understood the thing, and

said that a bargain was a bargain.

10,011. Did you pay down the 7s. 3d. in consequence of any

representation made by them?-No; I did it quite spontaneously.

10,012. Then it was you who did not stick to the bargain?-It was;

I improved the bargain for them.

10,013. Suppose it had been the other way, what would have taken

place?-I would not have asked the fishermen to agree to take a

less price. No doubt there are fishermen who have been in my

employ for many years, who, if they knew I was losing by the fish,

would not have asked the money; but others would take all they

could get, whether it paid me or not.

10,014. But, upon the whole, you think that if that system were

introduced by a large firm, there is reasonable prospect of it being

carried out?-So far as the fish-curer is concerned, there would be

a certain profit to him.

10,015. But do you think it would be practicable so far as both

fishermen and fish-curer are concerned?-I think it would

pauperize a number of the fishermen because there are a great

number of them in debt, and in the transition from the one system

to the other they would require to pay up their debts, so far as their

means would go, and their dealings would be less.

10,016. Do you think the fishermen under that new system would

not be able to get credit to a certain extent?-I don't see how some

of them could. For instance, take the year 1869. In 1868 the

fishings were almost a failure. Our total catch in Unst and Yell

amounted £1607, which could not average much over £4, 10s. to

each fisherman. That year we imported meal and flour to the

amount of £1824, cost price per invoice; we paid in cash for rents

to Major Cameron, Mr. Edmonstone, Lord Zetland, and others,

£1600; and we expended on fishing-boats and fish-curing

materials £780,-being a gross amount of outlay of £4223

against the fishing, the return for which, as said, was only £1607.

10,017. Does that return apply to your establishment at Uyea

Sound only?-It applies to our entire business in Unst and Yell.

10,018. Besides £1607 from fish, have you any idea what income

the fishermen would receive that year from other sources, such as

for sales of stock?-Yes. We can produce the rolls of cattle sales,

which show what cattle were sold in the spring; and we would

have a good idea what amount of fat cattle were sold in the rest of

the year.

10,019. In whose custody are these sale rolls?-We have them;

we conduct the sales. Then, in the year 1869 the crops were lost,

which made 1870 a very trying year on this island, and more

especially to Spence & Co. We imported that year about £2300

worth of meal and oatseed, and £173 of potatoes; and we paid the

same amount of cash in rents.

10,020. Were these importations distributed among the fishermen

and others at your different shops in the island?-Yes, among the

fishermen; but we had to supply many who were not fishermen, or

see them starving around us.

[Page 243]

10,021. That importation of meal, and the sale of it on credit,

would, I presume, leave the bulk of the fishermen considerably

in debt?-That year it would; except those who had saved some

money.

10,022. But with those who were in debt, that further credit would

have the effect of leaving them much more in debt than they were

before?-Of course; very much more.

10,023. Is that now in the course of being paid off?-Yes; it is

coming back to us very fast, in consequence of more successful

fishings and better crops.

10,024. Do you not consider that the necessity under which you

lay of importing the meal, and advancing it upon credit to the

fishermen, was the result of the system, which has been prevailing

here, of long settlements, and the undue amount of credit which

has been allowed to the men?-I have here a letter which I wrote

in 1860, and which represents my views on that subject, and I

may as well read an extract from it 'If we don't give unlimited

advances, we are told the fishermen will be taken from us. I have

now been nearly twelve months in this place (that was after I came

first to Uyea), and have closely watched the system pursued by

proprietors and others, and certainly agree with you that it is it bad

one; but I know I have no right to make any remarks or trouble

you with my views on that subject, further than to state that I

cannot see any good that will result from burdening the tenants

with debt to the fish-curers. It has been my desire, ever since I

knew anything about Shetland tenantry, to see them raised in

the social scale, and made thoroughly independent, both of

proprietors, fish-curers, and others, and I have felt deeply

interested in the -- properties, no doubt from being more

in contact with them; but when the poor among them are in

terror of the proprietors alike, and bound by forced advances to

different fish-curers, alas for liberty! and more offered to any

fish-curer who will advance more on them. This is not calculated

to raise any tenant in self-respect.'

10,025. You speak in that letter of 'forced advances:' what were

these?-What I meant by that was this: the proprietor's ground

officer or agent in the island, for the time being, told the tenant

that he might fish for me this year. I found that he had only £2 or

£3 to get, and the ground officer told that tenant that if he did not

go to me and get an advance for his rent, he would take him from

me and give him to any other man who would advance the rent.

That looked very like forced advances.

10,026. That, however, was in 1860?-Yes.

10,027. Was that a common practice in those times?-I believe

that 13 years ago truck existed ten times as much as it does now.

10,028. But in 1860 was it a common thing for a proprietor's

ground officer to threaten to remove a tenant unless he could get

his rent from the fish-curer?-Yes; to threaten to remove him

from the ground unless he could pay his rent, or to move him

from a fish-curer who would not give him an advance for that

purpose, to some other fish-curer who would do so.

10,029. Have you known instances of fishermen who were treated

in that way?-Yes. I was referring to cases of that kind when I

was writing that letter. It was my own experience at the time

when I was at Uyea Sound as a fish-curer trying to engage any

men who came to me. Many came to me and fell into debt,

because I found that many of them required more from the shop

than their fishing amounted to; and then I advanced rent after

rent, until I saw that I was advancing to my own ruin.

10,030. After advancing rent in that way, have you been informed

that they were to be transferred to another fish-curer unless their

rent was still advanced by you?-Yes; in more cases than one.

10,031. Were you so informed by the landlord, or by his factor?-

It was generally by the tenant himself, when he came seeking the

money.

10,032. Were you ever informed of it by the landlord or any one

representing him?-No.

10,033. Had you any reason to believe the story which the

fishermen told you?-Yes. I believed them, because I knew of

the men being taken away sometimes.

10,034. Was that after they had made such statements to you, and

although they were in your debt?-Yes.

10,035. Were you able in these cases to make any arrangement

with the new employer to pay up their debt?-In some cases we

did that, but in other cases we did not; oftener we made no

arrangement.

10,036. Why did you not try to secure your debt by arrestment?-

Because the proprietor's right of hypothec would cover the man's

whole effects.

10,037. But you might have arrested the money in the hands of the

new employer?-He might probably have advanced more than the

man might catch in the season before he commenced; so that there

was nothing to arrest.

10,038. Did you never try to secure your debt in that way?-I have

tried it, but have been unsuccessful.

10,039. Have you, within the last 12 years, met with cases of that

sort, in which the proprietor endeavoured to coerce you to pay his

rent?-Yes. I have had cases where the tenants came asking me

for money, and I told them I could not advance them any further.

They would then go away, and come back and tell me that the

proprietor's agent or ground officer had informed them that they

must get their rent, and that must pay it; and that if I did not do

that, they would not be allowed to fish for me.

10,040. Did that system continue until 1868?-No; it prevailed

principally under the ground officership of Mr. Sinclair, who acted

for Mrs. Mouat, in Unst.

10,041. You did not find that system in existence on other

estates?-I only came in contact with the tenants on that property.

10,042. Did no other tenants fish for you up till 1868?-No;

except Lord Zetland's.

10,043. Have you been obliged in that way to pay rents for Lord

Zetland's tenants also?-No, not for Lord Zetland's.

10,044. Only for the late Mrs. Mouat's?-Yes.

10,045. Did that practice cease when the estates passed to Major

Cameron?-They only passed to him at her death last year.

10,046. That was after you had got your lease of the estates?-

Yes.

10,047. And since you have had the lease, of course, your control

over the tenants has been direct?-Yes.

10,048. And no forced advance of that kind could be required?-

No; but, of course whatever the tenant might earn at the fishing,

we had still to pay his rent. That was one advance we could not

get clear of. The rent was due, and we were responsible for it to

the proprietor. The great drawback in the trade is the debts, and

the advances given that are never repaid.

10,049. Is it not in your own power to stop your advances

whenever you think the debtor is unable to pay more?-No

doubt; but suppose a family in the month of January who have

no food in the house: there are eight children and a wife, and an

aged mother, perhaps, we stop giving them supplies of meal, you

can easily guess the consequences.

10,050. If you were to stop their supplies, might they not obtain

them by having recourse to some other merchant or fish-curer?-

Yes; but it would be upon the same principle-upon credit again.

10,051. And you would lose your debt?-We would lose our debt,

and credit, and everything.

10,052. How would you provide for the transition from that state

of things to a system in which the payments would be monthly?-

I think it would take greater penetration and wisdom than I can

boast of, to solve such a ticklish point of political economy. I am

afraid pauperism would first increase.

10,053. But would it not be better for the men in the long run?-I

don't think it would be any better for the man who has plenty of

money now, and a good many of them have that. Such a man

comes and buys from us if he wants; and if he does not want, he

goes where he likes. If he has got a cow to sell, and we can give

him as good a price as another, he will perhaps sell to but he is

quite his own master as to where he will [Page 244] sell. But a

man with a very small amount of stock, and no credit, and no cash,

and no crop after February, would be in a very difficult position

until the month of June, when he began to fish.

10,054. Can men during these eight months not get some sort of

wages for labour?-The only kind of work in Unst is at the

chromate ore quarries; but they can only employ a very limited

number of men compared with the population, and those who

work in the quarries in winter generally work in summer also.

Their men are usually employed for the whole year and there is

no room for the fishermen to be employed there.

10,055. Have you any interest in these chromate quarries?-No.

10,056. Is it not your opinion, from the facts you have stated, that

the population of the island is rather greater than it is able to

maintain?-I think that if the inhabitants of the island were to

work the ground they have, they could take food enough out of

Unst to feed the 2800 or 3000 inhabitants that are in it.

10,057. Would it not be one effect of the improvements which are

being carried out under the management of your firm, to enable

the parties to tide over the transition period between the present

credit system and the cash system?-Perhaps I may be too

sanguine; but my hope is, that if we succeed in carrying through

the improvements which have been begun, in six years' time every

tenant on the island will be independent of every man, and then he

may make his bargain as he likes.

10,058. Do you calculate that it will take six years to wipe out

existing debts?-Yes; and that will require renewed exertion on

the part of every man. I don't think the idleness of the winter

will do it; I think we all want a stimulus.

10,059. Does it not occur to you that this want of energy arises in a

great degree from the feeling which the people have, that at the

worst they will get credit from the merchant?-There is no doubt

that has a very bad effect upon them.

10,060. So that the removal of that sense of dependence might be

the very stimulus you desiderate?-It might.

10,061. And your own system of monthly payments would

probably be the very best way to apply that stimulus?-I believe

it would; and I believe that with average years of fishing, if we

could employ the population for six months in winter at profitable

wages, we might get into the money system more easily.

10,062. In what way would you suggest employing them for six

months at profitable wages?-I don't know; I am afraid the winter

fishing cannot be improved.

10,063. And there is no other kind of employment in which wages

can be given?-No; unless Government would improve the fishing

harbours-that would be a very good way or by giving us more

roads. This system, which has obtained so long in Shetland, seems

to be natural to the soil; for when the roads were made, the

whole of them, except the one in Unst, were made under the

superintendence of a captain of the Navy and a captain of the

Royal Engineers; and we could not do without credit-I suppose

you would call it truck-although the cash was being paid every

month. We had to appoint a contractor in every district to supply

the workers with meal, and the officer in charge of the roads

granted checks to the men.

10,064. Was not that done in consequence of the absence of shops

in the district?-No; they had to go to the shop in the district and

get the meal. In every district where the works were being carried

on we had a contractor engaged to supply meal to the workers.

10,065. Do you mean a man keeping a shop?-We selected a man

in the district, and the officer in charge passed orders on him for

meal to A, B, or C, and he deducted that from their wages every

month, and paid them the balance in cash.

10,066. How long is it since these roads were made?-In 1849 and

1850. It was after the failure of the potatoes in 1847.

10,067. Were the funds for making these roads obtained from

Government?-No; Government only gave the superintendence

of a staff of sappers and miners.

10,068. Was the work done by local assessment?-No; the

money was raised for relieving the destitution in Shetland by the

Edinburgh Board, of which Mr Skene was secretary.

10,069. Then that was really an enterprise undertaken for the relief

of a temporary destitution?-Yes.

10,070. And the meal was distributed by way of relieving pressing

want?-Yes.

10,071. You said you were in possession of the sale rolls of all the

sales for some years back?-Almost them all. It was I who first

started sales in the North Isles. I began them at Cullivoe when I

was there. There never had been any sales until I got the lease of

the property from Major Cameron.

10,072. Could you give me a note of the principal purchasers at the

sales during the last two or three years in Unst?-I could; but the

principal purchasers at the sales for the last two or three years have

been ourselves and Mr. Jeffrey, a farmer and cattle-dealer. At the

last sales, I suppose, we bought two-thirds of the whole cattle sold.

10,073. Were these generally purchased in order to liquidate an

existing debt?-No; a great many of the men-those who have

most cattle to sell-have always most cash to get. That has been

my experience. A poor man is generally poor every way, and he

generally gets into the worst fishing-boat.

10,074. How does that happen?-He has begun poor, and been

unfortunate, and, some may think, unlucky.

10,075. But why should he get into the worst fishing-boat?-There

is no assignable reason for that, but very often you will find that

certain men who have been unfortunate just keep together.

10,076. But the fact of a man being unfortunate perhaps arises

from him not being so good a fisherman or so good a man of

business as the others?-Yes. He just gets into association with

men of the same class as himself, on the principle of birds of a

feather.

10,077. But, I presume, you very often do purchase either privately

or at these sales, cattle from some of your debtors, and enter

them in your account?-Very often. A great many of the cattle

purchased at the sales are not paid for until I settle with the men in

my district. Some men-not tenants of ours at all, but tenants of

Lord Zetland-have been asked to come and take the money after

the sale, but have said, 'I am not at all requiring it just now; I only

want my money once a year.' They have said that to me more than

once this year, so that I could not get clear of the money for the

cattle which I bought.

10,078. Were these men running an account with you?-Very

little. They come perhaps once a month and see how the account

stands, and get perhaps a pound or so in cash.

10,079. A statement was made in Edinburgh to the effect that

when a merchant bought a beast from some of his debtors in that

way, he had really the fixing of the price himself?-That is a very

serious mistake; I must say that twenty years ago that was the case,

but I think the first break to that in the North Isles was, as I

have already said, my commencing a cattle sale. The very year

I commenced the cattle sale, as I can prove by documentary

evidence, the price of cattle rose fully one-fourth, and ever since

there has been an auctioneer appointed to conduct the sales in Yell

and in Unst. I have invariably told every tenant in my district, that

if they could do any better with any produce-such as butter, eggs,

cows, or fish-than by bringing them to me, they were quite at

liberty to do so. I said that to them over and over again.

10,080. Why did you tell them that so often?-Because I had an

opportunity of telling it to them every time they came with their

produce and asked the price. A man might come with a jar of

butter one day, another jar a few days afterwards.

10,081. But did they not know without being told, that they might

go where they thought they could get a better price?-I thought

they did; but they might [Page 245] think that as we stood in the

relation to them of landlord, as well as fish-curer and merchant,

we might force them in some way; and I wanted to do away with

that impression, both as to the fishing and as to the purchase of

produce, because, whatever control we might have had the power

of exercising over them, we did not wish it to be exercised, or to

have it felt that there was such a power in our hands.

10,082. In point of fact, I suppose that by far the greater number of

the fishermen in this island sell their fish to you?-Yes. There is

only one boat that does not fish for us-Mr. John Johnston's.

10,083. Are there not some of the crews at the winter fishing who

do not fish for you?-I cannot speak so well about the winter

fishing, because it is carried on in small boats, and the men take

their fish anywhere they like.

10,084. Do they sell their winter fish to you for ready money?-

Yes, for ready money, or for goods if they want them, whichever

they like. We buy in North Yell just now all winter, and pay the

cash just as the men want it, or give them goods.

10,085. There is no Faroe fishing carried on by your firm?-No.

10,086. About how many tenants are there altogether on the estate

that you hold in tack on this island?-I think about 150.

10,087. About how many of them are engaged in fishing in your

boats?-The whole of them, I think, who do fish for us.

10,088. Do you buy a large quantity of kelp?-I buy almost all that

is bought in the islands.

10,089. How many women are employed at that?-They vary very

much, because they just do it as they like themselves.

10,090. Is there a separate rent charged in your lease for the kelp

shores?-It is included in the whole rent.

10,091. Do you pay a higher rent to Major Cameron under your

lease than you receive from the fishermen?-Yes; we pay about

£200 more than we receive, but that is for the scattalds and kelp

shores, which the tenants have the use of on certain conditions.

10,092. Do you think the scattalds and kelp shores alone are

worth that increased rent?-I have often wished that we had never

entered into that lease, but when we have entered into it we must

try to make the best of it.

10,093. Then you think the scattalds and kelp shores are not worth

so much?-They might be worth that if they were taken from the

tenants and developed into sheep-walks, but they are not worth

that to us.

10,094. Have you not the power of making them into sheep-walks

for yourselves?-Yes; but we have not done so.

10,095. The tenants still have the use of them upon certain

conditions?-Yes.

10,096. Do they largely avail themselves of that right upon making

that payment?-I am sorry to say that we lose about £100 a year by

them.

10,097. Do you mean that you do not collect £100 a year which

you are entitled to?-I say that when we have charged every tenant

under us the full amount of scattald charges, we are £100 short of

the rent under the lease, as our books will show.

10,098. Is that loss upon the rents and scattald charges, or upon the

scattald charges only?-It is upon the rents and the scattald united.

In short, we charge the tenants £1000 for rent and scattald charges,

and we pay Major Cameron £1100.

10,099. The kelp is gathered by the women upon these shores and

burned by them, and bought by you at so much per ton?-Yes.

10,100. Is the settlement for the kelp generally managed by way

of accounts in your books in each woman's name?-No. They

generally settled with at the time when they bring the kelp. We

may have supplied them with meal or other necessaries while they

were preparing the kelp, but as soon as they have prepared the

settlement is at once made.

10,101. These supplies are entered in a ledger account under the

woman's name during the time the kelp is being prepared?-Yes.

10,102. And then the amount of kelp is entered at the close of that

account as settling it?-Yes.

10,103. How many women are so employed?-Perhaps about 120

or 130. I think we have made about 40 tons of kelp from Unst, but

we get a good deal from Yell too I think about 20 tons.

10,104. Does the number of women you have given include those

in Yell?-No; I think there may be about that number in Unst.

10,105. What price per cwt. do you pay for the kelp?-It is 4s. this

year.

10,106. Is it the same price, whether paid in goods or in cash?-

There used to be a practice of giving from 4d. to 6d. less in cash

than in goods. The reason for that was, that the price allowed was

generally the extreme value of the article; but for the last two

years we have got 5s. per ton more for kelp, and we have made no

difference on the price to the women whether it was taken in cash

or in goods. That was the case more especially last year. Almost

all that we got from Yell was paid in cash, and paid at the same

rate of 4s.

10,107. Did the women take the price in cash or in goods?-They

took it almost all in goods, except those from Yell. They could

only come over at times when they had about a ton or two ready,

and they took back what goods they wanted, and the balance in

cash.

10,108. How do you arrange with your beach boys?-We have one

man engaged who cures for us by the ton. He finds the hands; we

do not employ them.

10,109. You do all your curing by contract?-Yes.

10,110. And you have nothing to do with the payment of the

persons employed at it?-I often pay them when the man who

has the contract gives me an order to pay. He gives them a line

to me to pay them so much and I do so.

10,111. Is that payment made at the shop at Uyea Sound?-Yes,

10,112. Is it made in goods or in cash?-It is just as the case may

be. Of course, if the man has taken anything it is deducted; but if

he has not taken anything he gets his cash.

10,113. Have the people who are employed in the curing got

accounts in your books in their own names?-Yes.

10,114. Do you mean the men employed under the contractor?-

Yes; they have their own accounts.

10,115. Do you know how much wages they receive from the

contractor?-Not until he gives me an order at the end of the

season, and then they are paid. They are paid as soon as the

work is over.

10,116. But during the season they are running an account in your

books and getting supplies?-Yes, but to as limited an extent as

possible. We don't like to give them goods; we rather like to give

them money at the end of the season, because if we are liberal in

that way, they generally overdraw their accounts.

10,117. But the line you speak of, which you receive from the

contractor, is only given at the end of the season?-Yes.

10,118. He does not give them lines when they want supplies?-

No.

10,119. Why does he not pay them himself?-At one time, some

years ago, I used to give the curer cash to pay his men; but I found

I was minus any advances I had given to them in the course of the

season, because they did not come back to square up when they

got their cash, and yet it was necessary for me to give them some

things in order to let the work go on.

10,120. Could you not leave it to the contractor to make these

advances?-It is quite optional. There is nothing compulsory in

this arrangement at all.

10,121. The men don't need to come to your shop for the advances

unless they like?-Not at all. I don't want them; I would as soon

pay them in money as goods.

10,122. And the contractor could do so?-Yes. He does so in

some cases. I suppose those who bring orders to me are those who

want it in that way. Very likely the contractor pays some that I

never see at all.

[Page 246]

10,123. Do you suppose that the whole payments he makes are

not made through you?-I don't know that they are. There is no

arrangement to that effect.

10,124. What is the contract price per ton for curing?-16s., and

we supply the implements and materials, and the beach. That is

just for his work, putting them from the shores to the beach; and

we take them from there to the shipping port.

10,125. In settling with your fishermen, what allowance do you

make for the cost of curing the fish per ton of dry fish?-We

deduct that from the price we have got for the fish, in estimating

what we are to pay our fishermen. That sum includes expense of

curing, cost of salt and materials, and removing the fish to the port

where they are to be delivered.

10,126. What other deductions do you make before fixing the

sum that is to be divided between you and the fishermen?-We

generally make no other deductions. We expect that the £3 should

cover everything but I don't know that it does so now, because

wages are much higher than they used to be.

10,127. What was the current price paid to fishermen here last

year?-8s.

10,128. What was the price of dry fish per ton?-The current price

was £23.

10,129. Deducting £3, that would leave £20: was that the sum

on which you calculated the division between you and the

fishermen?-Yes.

10,130. How do you calculate the price for the green fish?-We

calculate 21/4 cwt. of green fish for 1 cwt. dry.

10,131. That would only be 18s. per cwt?-Yes; but we give

skipper's fees, and a great deal of perquisites to the crew, which

will come to another shilling. The men have lines of their own,

and the skipper always gets a fee.

10,132. Then the 2s. extra is intended to cover that?-Yes, and our

profit.

10,133. Do you allow yourselves a commission?-Yes; and I think

we require it. The hire we take for the boat never covers the price

of the boat. I may say that, in my experience, boats which

originally cost £20 stand us in £32 when they are worn out, after

we have got credit for all the hires charged on them. There is

therefore a considerable loss on boats. The hire cannot nearly

meet current expenses, much less pay for the original price.

10,134. How do you mean that the boat stood you in £32?-I give

sails every second year, and a new sail costs about £2, 10s. Then

there is the carpenter's work every year in repairing the boat, and

there are oars and everything to be kept up. Taking these things

into consideration, the result of the debtor and creditor account of

some our boats was that they cost £20 originally, and when worn

out they had cost £32.

10,135. What was the hire of these boats?-48s. a year-8s. a

man. That was credited to the boat.

10,136. What is the life of a boat?-It is sometimes only a year.

10,137. But that is when she is lost?-No; we sometimes build

what appears to be a very good boat, and the carpenter says she is

first-class; but when the fishermen take her to sea they find she is

very bad, and they throw her on our hands, and we cannot use her.

10,138. Does that often happen?-Very often.

10,139. Then the hiring of boats is a very unprofitable business?-

It is; indeed I should be very glad if the fishermen would buy their

own boats; and if the Government would assist them in that, it

would be a very good thing. The life of a good boat may be about

twelve years.

10,140. Is it not an exceptional case where the boat is thrown up at

the end of the year?-No, it is very common at the end of one year

or two years.

10,141. But when a boat is a good one at first, and pleases the

fishermen, she is calculated to last for twelve years?-Yes, and

she may last a little longer with increased repairs.

10,142. And the calculation that a boat when worn out costs you

£32 is based upon the supposition that she does last for about that

period?-Yes; but the £32 is perhaps an exceptional case: that was

the highest I ever had in my experience.

10,143. Is the current price of fish according to which you pay

your men ascertained by communication with other merchants in

Shetland, or is it the actual price, which you get upon your own

sales?-There is generally a communication among the curers as

to what they think should be the price. Every man states his own

opinion freely.

10,144. And communicates the amount of his own sales to his

neighbours?-I don't know that he communicates his sales, but he

states his idea with regard, to what the price should be.

10,145. Do you sell mostly in this country, or in Spain?-It is

chiefly ling that we sell, and they go to the west of Scotland and

Ireland. We ship them direct to the Clyde, to merchants in

Glasgow and Greenock.

10,146. Have you ever shipped any to Spain?-No.

10,147. Do you know whether the fish shipped there are picked

fish?-I understand they are all picked.

10,148. Is a higher price obtained for them than for those sold in

this country?-I suppose so; it is chiefly cod that are sent there.

10,149. The men, I understand, have nothing to with fixing the

current price of fish?-No.

10,150. Do they sometimes complain that they have not?-I have

offered to the fishermen, not since Spence & Co. commenced, but

I did repeatedly before, to cure for them at 5 per cent., and furnish

everything.

10,151. Were they to sell the fish themselves?-I was to act as

their salesman, and disclose all to them if they would give me 5

per cent.

10,152. But they did not agree to that?-No; they thought the safer

way was to go on as we had been doing. The fish-curers don't

have that love and affection for one another which was described

in the evidence in Edinburgh. There is plenty of opposition among

them.

10,153. Except at the time when they are fixing the current

price?-I cannot say that there is any better agreement then. I

cannot agree at all with that part of the evidence which was

given before.

10,154. But you always do agree about that to a certain extent?-

No; we sometimes do not agree, and we have angry disputations

in our letters. We say the price should be a certain thing in our

opinion, and Spence & Co. have not agreed with all the fish-curers

yet, for we give 10s. per 100 cwts. as an encouragement or bounty,

and something to help the men to pay things they have in company

at the station; but none of the other curers have given that, and

they have been very hard upon us about it. We have given 2s. per.

ton more for every ton of green fish we have received than any

other curer in Shetland, so that we don't always agree.

10,155. Will you give me a note of your fish sales last year, and

the prices?-I will do so privately. [Hands them in.]

10,156. You have now produced to me the lease between Major

Cameron and your firm for twelve years up till Martinmas 1880:

are all the stipulations about improvements contained in it?-Yes;

they are to be, pointed out specially from year to year, but the

arrangement is, that there is to be so much expended every year

upon improvements.

10,157. But were the regulations for the tenantry separate from this

lease and issued to them?-No; the rules and regulations for the

sub-tenants are appended to the lease.

10,158. Were these made known to the tenants?-Yes; they were

given to them in a different form. They are amended rules to those

which were first issued by Mr. Walker.

10,159. Any tenants not complying with these regulations may

be removed by you?-Yes; they will get their leases unless they

comply with them, and we can remove them at any time.

10,160. What is the length of the holdings of these who comply

with these regulations?-It is the same as our own lease, twelve

years from 1868.

10,161. How many of the tenants have adopted these [Page 247]

regulations?-I should say that, to a greater or less extent, they

have all made a fair commencement in the improvements and

rotation of cropping.

10,162. But you have absolute power to remove them if they do

not comply with that?-We have. The property is absolutely let to

us, and we can absolutely turn them out if they do not comply with

the regulations. The lease is clear enough upon that point.

10,163. Have you had occasion to exercise that power?-Not in

any case.

10,164. Have you threatened to do so?-Not so far as is known to

me.

10,165. There is no obligation on the tenants, under this lease,

either to fish for you or to sell the produce of their farms to your

firm?-No; it is long since I read the lease, but I don't think there

is anything of that sort in it.

10,166. In point of fact, is there any understanding on the part of

the tenants that they are bound to do so?-No.

10,167. You have told them that they are under no such

obligation?-Yes.

10,168. But, in point of fact, most of them do sell their fish to

you?-They do.

10,169. And, in point of fact, most of them do sell their eggs and

butter to you?-I think the great bulk of them do, but I cannot tell

so well about the butter and eggs. We buy fully as much now at

Uyea Sound as we did in any season before the company

commenced.

10,170. And a number of the tenants also run accounts for

shop goods with your shops?-Yes; I think most of them do

so.

10,171. Do you think that having this lease is a facility to

you in carrying on your business?-I rather think that in one

sense it is the reverse, because at first it was so unpopular

among the tenants, in consequence of dividing the farms in the

first instance, and setting them on to work and cultivate and

drain and clear the ground of stones, and to introduce a rotation

of cropping, that it placed us as traders in the island to a great

disadvantage, and created an unhappy feeling between the

tenants and ourselves. I can say that for the last four years, I

have spent about one-thirteenth of my time among them, just

going from tenant to tenant three or four times every year, in the

south parish.

10,172. Over what portion of the island does this lease extend?-It

includes nearly one-half of the island. I have been compelled in

some cases to use hard measures with the tenants to get them to

alter the crop which they had put in, and to bring the land into

rotation. That looked a very severe thing to them; but we stood

between two fires, as it were.

10,173. You think it would be profitable for them in the end?-I

have no doubt it will, and a good many of them are seeing that

now.

10,174. But although this lease does not contain an express

condition that the tenants are to fish for you, it gives you a

power of ejecting them?-Of course it does.

10,175. And the tenants are aware of that?-Yes.

10,176. And of course they may feel a little more unwilling to deal

with another party or to fish for him in consequence?-That may

be. I don't know what their private feelings may be, but the lease

gives us it stronger power than that: it reserves the peats, and what

could they do without peats? We have absolute power in that

respect, if we choose to put it in force, but I hope never to see that

done. We can refuse them peats altogether and scattald altogether,

and we can shut them up altogether, but I hope I will never live to

see that day.

10,177. In short, you can do anything you please with the tenants,

except deprive any one of his holding who complies with these

rules and regulations?-Yes.

10,178. The only security he has is to comply with them?-Yes.

10,179. As to the peats and scattalds, he has no security at all?-

None.

10,180. You spoke of a bounty of 2s. per ton which you allowed

your fishermen at settlement: does that not correspond with the

present which is made at settlement at other places by way of

drinking money?-They say in other places that they give

nothing of that kind, but it would correspond with that.

10,181. Do you give the men anything besides as a gratuity at

settling time?-No; we give nothing in the way of drink money.

They get what is called a midsummer bottle: that is an old custom,

and it still continues among all the fishermen.

10,182. Have you had a good deal to do in the hosiery trade?-

Yes, I have bought a good deal of it.

10,183. I understand you buy a quantity of worsted from the

spinners in Unst and sell it south?-Yes; I generally sell it in

Lerwick.

10,184. At what rates do you generally buy the worsted?-We

never like to buy anything coarser than we can give 3d. per cut for.

10,185. The weight of that, I suppose, varies?-The weight of

what we give 3d. per cut for would be about 6 cuts to the ounce.

10,186. That would be 24s. per lb.?-Yes; but the number of

ounces is not a criterion, because the less the weight the higher

the price. We have given as high as 7d. per cut for worsted, and

that should weigh 14 cuts of 100 threads to the ounce. That

would be 8s. 2d. per ounce, or more than £7 per lb.

10,187. Is not that a very high price?-Yes; but we would give

cash for any amount of that kind of worsted we could get, or for

worsted at 6d. for 12 cuts to the ounce, but very few can spin that.

It is a very fine thread.

10,188. Have you known much worsted sold at the rate of £7, 12s.

per lb.?-No, not very much, because there are very few who can

spin it so fine. It is just like a cobweb.

10,189. What quantity of worsted of that sort would it take to

make a shawl of the ordinary size? About 40 cuts?-That would

be a small shawl. I have put as high as 70 cuts of that fine worsted

into a shawl; but that was a large shawl. The usual size is 25 to 30

scores, made out of 3d. worsted.

10,190. The score refers to the size of the shawl?-Yes; twenty

scores is twenty threads or twenty stitches of the needle across

from side to side.

10,191. Is the size of the shawl generally measured by the score or

by the yard?-It is generally measured by the score when the girl

commences to knit it.

10,192. Then a shawl of that size would take 40 cuts of that fine

worsted?-No; a 21/4 yard shawl would take 60 cuts of that fine

worsted.

10,193. The worsted of such a shawl would cost £1, 15s?-Yes.

10,194. Can you give me any idea what the knitting of that shawl

is generally put in at?-The knitting of shawl of that kind should

be 25s. to 30s.

10,195. Are these shawls made in Unst?-Yes; I have got a shawl

made in Unst that cost £4, and some that cost £3, and between £3

and £4.

10,196. Would the knitting cost as much in Lerwick?-I don't

know. I generally think, as a rule, that the knitter ought to get as

much for her work as the price of the worsted.

10,197. But it is somewhat less than the price of the worsted in

these fine shawls?-Yes.

10,198. Suppose a shawl of which the worsted cost you 35s.

and the knitting 25s.-that is £3 altogether: what would that be

invoiced for to the merchant in the south?-Perhaps I am not able

to give very good information upon that point, because I have

always found these shawls to be a part of my stock which it was

very difficult to dispose of.

10,199. Do you mean the fine shawls?-No. I have generally

got shawls of that sort made upon an order from gentlemen who

happen to come down here, and I usually charge them the cost

of the work and dressing, and so on; but I have found it a very

difficult thing to sell hosiery.

10,200. Is the 25s. which the knitter gets paid to her in money or in

goods?-Almost always in goods.

10,201. And you have been calculating now upon the footing that

that price was to be paid in goods?-Yes; but if I got an order for

the shawl, I would not care whether it was to be paid for in goods

or in cash.

[Page 248]

10,202. That is because if you had got the order you would receive

a cash payment?-Yes.

10,203. Whereas, if you were selling it to a merchant, you might

have to take goods from him for the value?-It is not exactly that,

but I might not get it sold at all. My object in dealing in hosiery is

more to oblige my customers than because it is an article on which

make a profit. A great bulk of the shawls which sell for about 30s.

are made from 3d. worsted. That would be 7s. 6d. for the worsted,

and the knitting would be 8s. or 9s. in goods, then there would be

6d. for dressing, and that would be about the cost of an ordinary

shawl.

10,204. How much would that sell for in the market?-I don't

know. I have tried most of the best hosiers who deal in shawls,

and I always lost them.

10,205. Do you invoice shawls to Edinburgh?-Yes, pretty often;

but I tried to get out of it because we lost a good deal by it. I

suppose these wholesale buyers in the south do their largest trade

with the merchants in Lerwick, and they don't like to buy from

the country people in case it might operate against their own

interests.*

*Mr. Sandison afterwards wrote the following letter in

supplement of his evidence:-

'I much regret you could not make your examination in Unst

more exhaustive.

'Witnesses were asked the effects of the present system on the

morals of the people. I am of opinion their morals will compare

very favourably with any other county in Scotland; and I will say

for my countrymen, that for intelligence and common sense they

are superior to many of the same class elsewhere.

'From careful observation and considerable experience, I have

come to think that the increase of small shops acts injuriously on

the poorest of the people, leading to the practice of deceit between

man and wife, mother and child, as well as between class and

class. Many families of the poor and indebted fishermen sell their

farm produce, butter, eggs, etc., and even meal and corn, out of

their own crop, to some of these small shops for trifling luxuries of

no real benefit; and, worst of all, most of these small shops sell

spirits surreptitiously, it is believed, to a greater extent than the

licensed dealer. As a rule, in my experience, the man who sells his

produce in quantity to the large buyer or fish-curer is independent,

and has cash in hand and bank; while the man who dribbles away

his produce through these shops, only giving his summer fish to

the fish-curer, is in debt and poverty. While one man can take up

£4 to £6 for the one article of butter, in cash at settlement, the

other, with as many milch cows, has nothing. The monopoly said

to exist here has not reduced these shops; there are fourteen shops

in Unst.

'The interests of the small dealer is <only one,-his own>. The

interests of the fish-curer and larger dealer is the people's as much

as his own, he must supply all their necessary wants, pay rents, and

carry them through with food, at least in unsuccessful seasons;

their independence is his gain, their poverty his ruin, by incurring

debts, in many cases never paid. This is bad; but in my opinion it

is not this, nor barter, call it truck if you like, that has kept

Shetland so far behind, but the utter neglect of the soil, and

slovenly farming, for the last 100 years. I don't think 100 acres

have been added to the cultivated ground by tenant crofters, while

in that time the population has increased more than one-third; in

place of adding, I am sorry to say that in many cases there has

been a most destructive system of reducing going on, by delving

down hill for ages until the tops of many fields are wasted to the

rock. I have seen places where considerable extents was lost in

this way; and for draining and clearing out stones, that was

unthought of. For this state of matters, both proprietors and

tenants are to blame. Proprietors, in my opinion, have been far too

careless of their poperty, not heeding how the crofter farmed, if the

rent was paid; and the naturally indolent man reduced more so, by

neglecting to increase and improve his farm during the long

winter, when he could do little else. Then the breeding and rearing

of cattle has been utterly neglected by the small tenants: we have

made a right start with that in this island now.

'In all my experience I find the best farmer (I speak of the

crofters) is never the worst fisher, and is generally out of debt;

while the bad and slovenly farmer, though an extra good

fisherman, often falls behind, indeed generally so. Of late I

have come to the conclusion that the time spent at the winter

fishing is a loss to the crofter, as I do think he can be more

profitably employed on his farm, at least until he puts it in proper

order. Not to enlarge, I consider the land question a more serious

one than the truck for Shetland. Get our crofter fishermen to feel

and take an interest in the soil they cultivate; induce them to habits

of constant activity on their land, when not fully employed at

fishing; get them, by whatever way, to take a pleasure in rendering

the waste places of their farm productive of food for man and

beast; give them better houses; let them have every reasonable

encouragement from their proprietors, with patient continuous

oversight by those competent to give direction and advice: I would

hope for more from this than all the 'Truck Acts' in the world.

'In place of putting shackles on the fish-curers, who are trying

to develop that one branch of our industry, they ought to be

encouraged. Much capital is invested in it; and when as much has

been done to develop the land as is being done to develop the deep

sea, I am sure we will require no 'Truck Act.'

'I would like to say a word on the Rev. Mr. Smith's evidence to

price and quality of the goods sold in Unst, but may take another

time for that: enough to say just now, that he has yet to try

mine.'

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, PETER JOHNSTON,

examined.

10,206. You are registrar of this parish, and you live at

Balliasta?-Yes.

10,207. You were formerly a fisherman, and you are acquainted

with the way in which the fishing trade is carried on?-Yes. I was

acquainted with it when I was at the fishing. It is ten years ago

since I left it.

10,208. When you were a fisherman, was there liberty for every

man to fish to any one he liked to engage with?-Yes.

10,209. Was there no restriction at all?-No.

10,210. What estate did you live upon?-On the estate of Buness.

10,211. No one there was bound to fish for his landlord or

tacksman?-No. When the late Mr. Edmonstone had the fishing

himself, I fished for him.

10,212. Were you bound to fish for him?-I was willing to fish for

him in preference to any other, because he was my landlord.

10,213. But were you bound to fish for him?-No, he did not hold

me bound.

10,214. Might you have engaged to fish for any one else, without

any fear of being turned out of your farm?-I might.

10,215. Was that generally the case throughout the country?-I

believe it was, so far as I can remember. What it was long before

that I don't know.

10,216. You are not engaged in fishing now, or in any business?-

No. I have a farm from Mr. Edmonstone.

10,217. Do you deal at the shop at Haroldswick or Balta Sound?-

I just deal anywhere I find convenient, because I pay in ready

money.

10,218. You don't keep an account?-No.

10,219. Do you prefer that way of dealing?-I do.

10,220. Do you get better bargains in that way?-It may be that

there is not much difference, but still have the privilege of

choosing where I am to deal.

10,221. Where do you deal in your ready-money transactions?-

Chiefly with Spence & Co. at Balta Sound.

10,222. What do you pay there for meal?-I am not, in the way of

buying meal. I get it from my own farm.

10,223. What do you pay there for soft goods?-I have not had any

lately.

10,224. Do you go to Lerwick for them?-No; but sometimes I

send to Lerwick for some tea and other articles.

10,225. Why do you not get your tea from Spence & Co?-I get it

sometimes from them, and sometimes from others.

10,226. Why do you send so far as Lerwick for it?-Because we

might get it a little cheaper there. We can get very good tea at

Lerwick for 2s. 6d. a lb., while the cheapest here is about 3s. or 2s.

8d.

10,227. Is the 2s. 6d. tea that you get in Lerwick as good as the 3s.

tea which you get here, or better?-I think it is much about the

same.

10,228. Is there anything else you send to Lerwick for?-No.

10,229. What else do you get from Spence & Co.?-Any small

thing I require-principally tobacco. I get twist tobacco for 31/2d.

an ounce.

10,230. What else do you get?-Nothing worth mentioning.

10,231. Then you buy nothing from Spence & Co. that is worth

mentioning except tea and tobacco?-I sometimes buy a little

sugar. It is fine white sugar at 6d. a lb. I have also bought sugar

from Mr. William Johnston. It was of the same price and quality.

I have never got it from Lerwick.

[Page 249]

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, WILLIAM GILBERT

MOUAT, examined.

10,232. You are a partner of the firm of Spence & Co?-I am.

10,233. You manage their business at Baltasound along with Mr.

Thomson?-Yes.

10,234. You were in business on your own account for a good

many years before the formation of that company?-Yes, for

eighteen years at Baltasound. I was not extensively in the fishing

then, but I had a shop.

10,235. Were you present during the examination of Mr.

Sandison?-Yes.

10,236. Do you concur generally in what he said?-Yes; I don't

think I could correct or add anything to it, for I think he has given

just such a statement as I would have given myself.

10,237. Do you entertain the same opinion about the possibility of

an improved mode of conducting business here?-I do.

10,238. You have arrived at the same conclusion with regard to the

expediency of a monthly pay if it could be introduced?-Yes;

fortnightly or monthly.

10,239. You settle with the fishermen at Baltasound?-Yes; I have

settled with the greater number of them there for the last four

years.

10,240. In 1867, before the formation of the firm, had you

fishermen in your own employment here?-Yes.

10,241. Before 1868 Mr. John Spence carried on business at

Haroldswick as a fish-curer?-Yes.

10,242. And, I understand, the accounts of both the Haroldswick

fishermen and the Baltasound fishermen are now kept in your

books at Baltasound?-Yes. They are transferred from what is

called the Haroldswick fisherman's ledger to the general ledger.

We enter the amount of advances at Haroldswick into the general

fishing ledger, and give the men credit in that ledger for the

amount of their fishings.

10,243. Does that general fishing ledger show the amount of

balances due at the beginning of each year as well as at the end?-

Yes. [Produces fisherman's ledger.]

10,244. Are the shop accounts entered in this book in full, or is

the summation merely transferred from another book?-These

accounts [showing] are just taken from what we call the

fisherman's ledger at Haroldswick, containing the fishermen's

accounts for the season.

10,245. How do you do with the fishermen who deal in the shop at

Baltasound?-We have a shop ledger in which the details of their

transactions are entered. Here [showing], and for eighteen

pages back, you will find the Baltasound fishermen. Then here

[showing] is the account for the rent, which we pay for the men to

the Earl of Zetland. I collect Lord Zetland's rents here for Messrs.

George and Arthur James Hay, the factors, and remit them to them

when collected.