examined.
7628. You are the schoolmaster of this parish, and inspector
of poor?-I am.
7629. How long have you been inspector of poor?-For
twenty-two years.
7630. I understand the number of paupers in this parish is
fifty-three?-Yes; exclusive of dependants. I now exhibit an
abstract of the accounts for all the time I have been in the
office of inspector, which I keep for any own satisfaction and
the satisfaction the Board.
7631. Do you think the amount of pauperism in the parish has
diminished or increased in your experience?-I think it has kept
very much about the same some years back.
7632. Do you think that pauperism is increased or affected in any
way by habits arising from the system of protracted credit which
exists in the parish, or have you formed any opinion at all upon the
subject?-I have formed no opinion upon that, but I know that the
Poor-Law has acted very injuriously upon the parish by increasing
the expenses.
7633. That is to say, it has acted injuriously as regards those who
pay the assessment, whatever it may have done with regard to the
condition of the paupers themselves?-Yes. For a long time after
the passing of the Act, we kept on the old system of quartering and
paying the paupers through the session fund, and so on, and the
heritors generally contributed a certain amount yearly to meet any
balance due.
7634. I presume the payments made to the paupers are made in
money?-Yes; all in money, except clothing, which is taken round
to them.
7635. How long has that system prevailed?-Since the Poor-Law
came into operation in the parish.
7636. Since 1845?-Not since 1845; nor for several years
afterward. The legal assessment, I think, came on in 1861.
7637. You say that all clothing to the paupers is furnished by the
inspector?-Yes; furnished by myself.
7638. Where is it purchased?-At any of the shops in the district,
generally where the paupers live. Anything that is required for
paupers in North Roe I generally purchase from Mr. Greig.
7639. In this district where is it purchased?-Generally at
Hillswick, from Mr. Anderson.
7640. Is there any other place except these two shops where it is
purchased?-Yes; at Ollaberry and Lochend from Mr. Laurenson.
7641. You purchase it yourself and deliver it to the paupers?-
Yes.
7642. When their allowances are due in money, are they paid in
money?-Yes; they call up for it-all those who are round me. At
North Roe I send a cheque to Mr. Greig previous to the time for
the amount to be distributed.
7643. If a pauper is unable to come here, how is his allowance
conveyed to him?-They generally send their tickets, and I send
the money by any person who can convey it. It is paid on tickets.
7644. What kind of ticket?-It is just an account of the allowances
given to the paupers, and it is authorized by the Board of
Supervision. It is the receipt for the money. The pauper keeps
the ticket in his own possession, and whenever I get the ticket I
pay the money, and mark it on the back. The pauper comes
himself, if able and if not he sends the ticket.
7645. Was the allowance never paid by means of orders for meal?
-Previous to the legal assessment [Page 187] coming into
operation in the parish in 1861, it was sometimes paid in that
way, and sometimes in cash.
7646. Has it ever been paid by an order for meal or food since
then?-Not to my recollection, except it may be in the case of the
applicants for casual relief, or applicants coming to me seeking
relief before the meeting of the Board. In that case, sometimes,
but not often, I would give an order for a little meal. I generally do
that when I have not sufficient confidence in the economy of the
party, and when I think the allowance may be put to some other
use than the purchase of meal or necessaries.
7647. Has it never been paid to paupers regularly on the roll by
means of an order upon the shop?-No; not since the Act came
into operation in the parish.
7648. Are you quite sure of that?-I think I am perfectly sure, so
far as my recollection goes.
7649. Have any of the paupers on the roll ever asked you to
give them a line or an order on the shop for meal or other
requirements?-No; not to my recollection. They always get
their cash.
7650. Have you ever had occasion to transact business with
paupers, or to make payment of their allowances at the shop at
Hillswick, or at any of the shops in the neighbourhood?-No; I
don't practise that at all.
7651. Has it ever been done?- Very seldom, I think.
7652. But it may have been done?-At the last month's pay there
were two poor women living about five miles from this, who, I
knew, could not come themselves, and I was doubtful that they
might not get a person to come for them; therefore I sent word to
them to send their ticket to Mr. Anderson and get the money. That
was only done on one occasion.
7653. That is the only occasion within your recollection?-Yes.
Mr. Anderson generally draws the money for me from the bank;
and when I run out of change, I send down the pauper to him with
a note for money; but that does not often happen. It is simply
when I am out of change.
7654. Mr. Anderson merely acts as your banker?-Yes.
7655. He draws the money as the chairman of the Board?-Yes;
and it is handy for me, because I get the small change from him
that I require.
7656. How often does it happen in the course of a year that you
give an order of that sort?-I could not say how often it happens. I
only remember one other instance of it just now, besides the one I
have referred to. The person called here, and I did not have the
change; and as the person was going to Hillswick, I gave a note on
Mr. Anderson to give the money. But it is not at all a common
practice.
[The sitting was here adjourned till the evening.]
Hillswick, Northmavine, January 12, 1872, ARTHUR HARRISON,
examined.
7657. You are a merchant at Hillswick?-Yes, at Urrafirth.
7658. You were for some years in the employment of Mr.
Anderson at Hillswick?-Yes.
7659. And you are now in business on your own account at
Urrafirth?-Yes.
7660. Do you employ any fishermen?-No.
7661. Are you in business in the drapery and provision line?-No;
I only deal in groceries.
7662. Do you not keep any soft goods at all?-Yes; I have a few
pieces of cotton.
7663. You are just beginning business?-Yes.
7664. Had you any difficulty in getting shop accommodation?-
Yes, a little.
7665. In what way? Was it not easy to find a shop in this
parish?-No; it was not easy.
7666. How so?-The heritor did not wish to give it to me; and I
had a lease saying that I was not to commence business.
7667. You had a lease of what?-Of a bit of ground which I held.
7668. Was it a lease of the premises you now possess?-Yes.
7669. When did you take that lease?-Fourteen years ago.
7670. You have lived there for fourteen years, and had a piece of
ground?-Yes.
7671. And the lease prohibited you from carrying on any shop
business?-Yes; but the heritor allowed me to cure fish, and to
keep a little to supply the people whom I employed.
7672. In what way did you employ them?-I employed them, and
paid them every Saturday night.
7673. In what business?-In curing fish-drying Faroe cod. I
don't buy the cod; I cure it for Mr. Adie.
7674. Is that your principal occupation?-Yes.
7675. And the landlord agreed to allow you to keep small shop for
supplying provisions to these men?-Yes.
7676. Is that all you are doing now?-Yes.
7677. Did you receive a letter from the Busta trustees, forbidding
you to carry on a shop business there, or stating that you could not
be allowed to hold the premises for the purpose of doing so?-No,
I received no letter; but in my lease it is stated that I am not to
carry on anything but the curing business.
7678. But you had that fourteen years ago?-Yes.
7679. Have you had any communication with the Busta trustees, or
with any one of them, on the subject since you took your lease?-
Yes.
7680. With whom?-With Mr. Gifford and Mr. Hay.
7681. Was that communication in writing?-No; it was personally
with them at Busta.
7682. Did you apply to them for leave to carry on a more extensive
business in the way of a shop?-No; I did not apply for anything
more than what I got.
7683. What was it you went to see them about?-I went to ask for
liberty to cure fish, and keep a small store.
7684. When did you do so?-About November 1869.
7685. Was that shortly after you left Mr. Anderson's
employment?-No; it was before.
7686. Did they grant you that permission?-Yes; latterly it was
granted.
7687. But it was not granted to you at first?-No.
7688. For what reason?-I don't know for what reason.
7689. Did they not assign a reason for not granting you that
permission?-Yes. I think they said it was too near Hillswick.
7690. What was the meaning of that?-That the starting of another
business there might reduce the value of Hillswick, and therefore it
would not pay such a rent.
7691. Did you understand from that, that in granting Mr. Anderson
a lease of the premises at Hillswick, they had become bound not to
allow any other shops to be opened in the district?-No; they did
not say anything like that.
7692. Was it with Mr. Gifford this conversation took place?-Yes.
7693. Was it implied that they had some reason for not interfering
with Mr. Anderson's business?-Yes; at least the reason he gave
was not so much that it would interfere with Mr. Anderson's
business, as that it would bring down the rent of Hillswick, and
would not advance the property anything.
7694. Do you mean that if you were to open a shop there, the
necessary result would be that Mr. Anderson would require to have
his rent reduced?-Yes; that is likely to have been what was
meant.
7695. How long after that was it when you got permission to open
your present shop?-I don't know exactly how long it was.
Perhaps it may have been a month or two after it was spoken of
first. I then got [Page 188] liberty to cure the fish and keep
provisions for the men I employed; that was all.
7696. But only for the men you employed?-That was all the
liberty I got.
7697. Are you not allowed to sell to anybody except the people
you employ?-I never asked any more liberty than that.
7698. When you first went to ask for that permission, had you
made arrangements to cure fish for Mr. Adie?-No.
7699. Had you made the arrangement by the second time you
went?-Yes.
7700. Did you say to Mr. Gifford, when you went the second time,
that you had made such an arrangement?-Yes; I told him I had
got the offer of fish to cure.
7701. Was he more ready to grant your application on that
occasion?-Yes. He said I could take the work.
7702. Had you spoken to Mr. Anderson about the matter in the
interval?-I don't remember; perhaps I might.
7703. You were trying to set up your business at that time?-Yes.
7704. Don't you remember whether you applied to Mr. Anderson
with regard to that matter at all?-Yes. I believe I told him then
what had passed between me and Mr. Gifford at first.
7705. Did Mr. Anderson then agree to withdraw any objection he
might have to it?-He did not say anything about that.
7706. In what way did you come to make an arrangement with Mr.
Adie?-He had been told that I intended to commence curing fish,
and he offered me some to cure.
7707. Was it through Mr. Anderson that that was done?-I don't
know.
7708. Did the offer from Mr. Adie come to you through Mr.
Anderson?-No. He wrote me directly and I replied accepting his
offer, and then I went and saw him at Voe.
7709. Do you buy the fish from Mr. Adie's boatmen?-No; I buy
no fish.
7710. They are delivered to you by Mr. Adie's boatmen on his
account, and you cure them for Mr. Adie, employing your own
people and receiving a contract price for the curing?-Yes.
7711. How long had you been in Mr. Anderson's service before
that time?-Upwards of twenty years.
7712. All the time as a shopman?-Not all the time, but perhaps
for eighteen years as a shopman.
7713. Why did you leave his employment?-There was some
difference between us, and we thought it best to part.
7714. Was there a quarrel about money matters, or anything of that
kind?-No; there was no great quarrel.
7715. After you were refused that permission in the first instance
by the Busta trustees, did Mr. Anderson agree in any way not to
object to you having the shop, provided your sales were limited to
the men whom you employed yourself?-No; Mr. Anderson never
objected to me, nor in my presence; I did not hear him objecting.
7716. Did you know of him objecting?-I could not say that I
knew of it.
7717. Did you think he was objecting?-Yes.
7718. What made you think that: was it what Mr. Gifford said?-I
think it was.
7719. Do you think Mr. Anderson would have less objection to it
when he knew it was Mr. Adie who was concerned in the
business?-I took no thought of that.
7720. Do you know that Mr. Adie had interfered on your behalf
with Mr. Gifford?-Not to my knowledge.
7721. Did you ask him to do so?-No.
7722. Have you any reason to suppose that he interfered on your
behalf with Mr. Anderson?-Yes. He wrote to Mr. Anderson
about me, inquiring why had left, and asking for testimonials.
7723. Was that before he wrote to you making the offer?-It was
when I was asking goods from him. I don't remember exactly
whether it was before or after.
7724. Do you sell the goods for Mr. Adie, or do you sell them on
your own account?-I sell them on my own account.
7725. Do you get them from Mr. Adie at wholesale prices?-Yes.
7726. At least you get them from him at a lower rate than that at
which you sell them?-Yes.
7727. Was it before or after you got leave from the Busta people to
open the shop that Mr. Adie wrote to Mr. Anderson?-I cannot say
exactly when it was, but it was before I got the goods from Mr.
Adie.
7728. Was it before you had got permission to open the shop that
you applied to Mr. Adie for the goods?-No; I had got permission
before I applied for the goods.
7729. Then it was after you had got permission open the shop that
Mr. Adie wrote to Mr. Anderson?-Very likely it was but I don't
know. I did not know about him having written until some time
afterwards, when he told me.
7730. When you arranged with Mr. Adie about the fish-curing, was
anything said about you having a shop from which to supply the
people with goods?-No.
7731. Are you sure of that?-Yes. I wrote to him, and I never said
anything about that.
7732. But you went to see him after that?-Yes; it was only then I
spoke about the goods.
7733. Was it on your way home from Voe that you called at Busta
and saw Mr. Gifford about the shop the second time?-No; it was
before I went to Voe.
7734. Was it on your way to Voe?-I don't remember. Perhaps it
may have been on a different day altogether.
7735. But it was before you went to Voe, and after you had got the
letter from Mr. Adie?-Yes.
7736. You don't know from Mr. Adie or Mr. Anderson whether
there had been any letters between them about you until after you
were at Voe that time?-I don't know.
7737. Do you think there was any such letter?-I don't know of
any, but there may have been.
7738. How did you know of the other letter first: did you see it?-
No.
7739. Who told you of it?-Mr, Adie.
7740. Was that at another time when you called upon him?-No;
it was the first time-the time when I went to him and asked for
goods. He told me then that he had written to Mr. Anderson and
got his reply.
7741. That is not what you told me before: did you not say before,
that you thought it was after you had asked for the goods that Mr.
Adie wrote to Mr. Anderson?-It was after I had agreed for the
fish.
7742. Then the first time you saw Mr. Adie was at Voe before you
opened the shop, and when you went to ask for goods?-Yes.
7743. And when you were at Voe at that time Mr. Adie told you he
had written to Mr. Anderson, and had received a reply from him
containing a certificate?-Yes.
7744. Did Mr. Adie tell you at the same time that he had seen Mr.
Gifford?-I cannot say.
7745. What department did you manage in Mr. Anderson's
shop?-I was fish-curer and factor for the summer time at
Stenness.
7746. Do you know William Inkster?-Yes.
7747. Do you remember three or four years ago when he left Mr.
Adie and came to fish to Mr Anderson?-Yes.
7748. Did you know that he did that because Mr. Adie had refused
him supplies on account of a debt?-No; I did not know that.
7749. Did you know that he was in Mr. Adie's debt at that time?-
Yes.
7750. Do you know that Mr. Anderson took over the debt?-Yes.
7751. Is it a common thing here for a fish-merchant to take over
the debt of a fisherman who leaves another employer and comes to
him?-Yes.
[Page 189]
7752. Have you heard of that frequently among the fishermen?-
Yes. It has been the practice so long as I can remember, except
some time after Mr. Anderson came here, when it was not done.
Then, a fisherman who had got an advance from one merchant,
would go to another and leave his balance unpaid, and therefore
the old system was renewed again.
7753. Do you know the nature of the arrangement which was made
when the system was renewed?-I do not.
7754. Do you know what the arrangement is?-I never saw the
arrangement.
7755. I don't suppose it was in writing?-I could not say.
7756. Do you know what the practice generally is now in such
cases?-Yes. The merchant generally pays the man's balance
before giving him anything.
7757. That is to say, the new employer pays the man's balance
before agreeing with him to fish for him for the season?-Yes.
7758. Is the whole balance paid, or only a part of it?-That is just
as they can arrange.
7759. Is there a rule that a man is not to be taken by new employer
without his balance being paid to the old one?-I think that is
generally understood now.
7760. Do you know over what district that arrangement prevails?
Do you know what fish-merchants do that?-I think it extends no
further than to the men fishing at Stenness, and from Voe to
Hillswick.
7761. Does that include Messrs. Adie, Mr. Anderson, and Mr.
Inkster?-Yes.
7762. Were you aware that that was always done when you were in
Mr. Anderson's employment?-No, it was not always done, but it
was practised before I came into Mr. Anderson's employment at
all.
7763. But when you were in Mr. Anderson's employment, was it
not always done?-No, not always.
7764. You mean that the arrangement ceased for a while, and was
renewed?-Yes.
7765. How long is it since it was renewed?-I cannot tell.
7766. Was it before William Inkster came to Mr. Anderson?-
Yes, some time before that.
7767. Did you know that it was done in other cases besides
Inkster's?-Yes.
7768. Was it done in many cases?-I don't remember of many.
7769. Was it commonly known among the fishermen that there
was such a rule?-Yes, latterly, I believe, it was generally known.
Hillswick, Northmavine, January 12, 1872, JOHN ANDERSON
(recalled).
7770. You showed me some of your books yesterday, in which I
saw the name of William Inkster, Stenness and you explained to
me that a large sum of money, upwards of £40, which stood
against him in your books when he began to fish at the beginning
of last year, was the continuation of a balance that had been
against him for some years previously: is that so?-Yes. I would
rather not mention names, unless you think it necessary, because I
make it a rule with my shopmen that they are never to mention any
man's balance, whether it is due by him or not, on pain of being
turned off.
7771. You told me that this large balance consisted partly of an
account which Inkster had incurred to Mr. Adie at Voe, and which
you had taken over when the man began to fish for you?-Yes.
7772. What was the amount of the original debt which you took
over from Mr. Adie?-I think it came to about £20.
7773. Inkster left Mr. Adie, I understand, in consequence of his
supplies being stopped?-I don't know the reason exactly.
7774. But he came to fish for you?-Yes.
7775. How did it happen that you undertook his debt at the end of
the first season he fished for you?-It was in consequence of an
agreement that exists between Mr. Adie, Mr. Inkster of Brae, and
me, with reference to each other's fishermen.
7776. What is the nature of that agreement?-It was entered into
just to protect ourselves from those men who want to escape from
paying their debts. I think we're bound to each other not to take
the men without making some arrangement to see that their debts
shall be paid.
7777. Do you undertake to pay the whole debt, or only a part of it,
according to circumstances?-It is the whole debt.
7778. Was this a verbal arrangement?-No.
7779. Was it reduced to writing?-Yes.
7780. Have you got it?-I have not. I rather think I got a copy sent
to me at one time but I think Mr. Adie has the extended
agreement.
7781. Have you got a copy of it now?-I have not.
7782. Have you lost it?-No. It is very likely among my papers,
but I cannot say. It is a long time since I came across it.
7783. Has this arrangement been of long standing? Do you
remember the date of it?-I cannot exactly say the date. I think it
must be from five to nine years since it was entered into, but I
cannot speak accurately as to the date.
7784. Has the arrangement been acted upon?-Yes.
7785. When a fisherman leaves one master, and goes to another of
those three, the debt due to the former master is generally paid by
the new one?-Yes.
7786. You showed me in your invoice book an entry of the last
purchase of oatmeal you had made from Messrs. Glenny,
Aberdeen, for the purposes of your business, as follows:-'1871
June 19. 50 sacks oatmeal, sacks 50s., £100'?-Yes. The 50s. is
the price of the sacks, to be returned or kept.
7787. A sack of oatmeal consists of 280 lbs.?-Yes.
7788. What is the selling price of a lispund?-5s. 4d.
7789. Has that been the price for some time?-It has been the
price during the last season.
7790. You also showed me an invoice of flour from Messrs. J. & J.
Tod, Dalkeith:-'1871. October 2. 2 sacks extra superfine flour, at
44s., £4, 8s.;' and another invoice, containing these entries:-
'October 19. 2 sacks No. 2 flour, at 45s., £4, 10s., 1 sack oatmeal,
£2'?-Yes. The sacks in these invoices are charged separately.
7791. What is the selling price of the flour?-6s. 6d. per lispund.
Flour is also sold by the lispund here.
7792. Both the flour and the oatmeal in the invoice of October 19
were intended for the purposes of your business?-Yes. Besides
the invoice price, there are freight and charges to be taken into
account. The freight and landing would be 2s. per sack for the
oatmeal. That is the steamer's freight to Lerwick, and then it is
brought by a small packet which comes round by Roenesshill
when she has anything like a cargo. The small packet charges 1s.
6d. per sack; it is double freight coming round the hill; so that
probably the freight and landing charges will be 3s. 6d. per sack.
7793. Are these all the charges?-I think so. There would also be
insurance charged against me; it is at my risk when shipped. It
was not insured in this case, but still that ought to be reckoned,
because I ran the risk. I don't know the rate of insurance. I have
paid as high as 35s. per cent. of insurance from Leith, but I have
got it much cheaper insured in Glasgow-I think 7s. 6d. per cent.
7794. Is that for goods in general, or for any particular kind of
goods?-Just for general goods.
7795. You heard the evidence that was given this morning?-Yes.
7796. Is there any statement you have heard from any of the
witnesses which you wish to correct, or anything you wish to say
in addition to what you said yesterday?-Yes. I think I would be
inclined to differ from [Page 190] the description which Mr.
Sutherland gave of the people. My experience of them has been
very different.
7797. You would be disposed to give the Shetland people a better
character than he gave them?-I think so. I think they can bear
favourable comparison with any people of the same class that I
have come across in other parts of the world.
7798. In respect of frugality?-Yes.
7799. And foresight?-Yes; and activity in business.
7800. And for their moral virtues?-Yes.
7801. Is it not the case that a considerable part of the year is spent
in comparative idleness by the Shetland fishermen?-I believe it
is, but that perhaps does not arise from any unwillingness on their
part to work.
7802. From what does it arise?-From want of employment.
7803. Have they not their land?-They have their land, but, as I
observed before, there is a bar to improvement there.
7804. Would it not be possible to introduce a more extensive
system of winter fishing than that which exists now?-I don't
think it.
7805. It seems a little peculiar, does it not, that the summer fishing
should be prosecuted in the big boats, and that only the small boats
should be sent out in winter?-They prosecute the fishing in the
big boats in winter too, when the weather permits.
7806. But they don't go so far to sea in winter as in summer?-No;
they don't go so far.
7807. I understood it was principally the small boats that went out
in winter?-That is true, but on several occasions they employ the
big boats too. But the smaller boats, when the weather permits,
are much handier and lighter to manage.
7808. Are they safer?-They are equally safe when the weather
permits.
7809. But would they not be able to go greater distances to sea
with the big boats?-It would not matter much what size of boat
they had if they were caught at sea by a gale.
7810. Is it not the case that on the east coast of Scotland the
fishing is prosecuted for nine or ten months in the year; and that
the fishermen there, who are a very comfortable class, have no
occupation except that of fishermen? I am not asking you at
present about any separation between fishing and agriculture, but
don't you think it would be possible to prosecute the fishing in
Shetland to the same extent, and for the same length of time, as it
is prosecuted on the east coast of Scotland?-I don't think it.
7811. Is that owing to the weather?-It is owing to the weather,
and the great exposure to the Atlantic, and the great swell that
comes in from it. A very light puff of wind raises a tremendous
sea in winter, that scarcely any boat could live in.
7812. In some parts of Shetland, where there is not so much
exposure, is not the winter fishing prosecuted to some extent?-
Yes.
7813. And to a greater extent than it is here?-Yes; that is done
about Yell Sound, for instance. They are protected there on
almost all sides.
7814. Here you are exposed to westerly gales which do not affect
the fishermen on the east coast?-That is so.
7815. Is that the principal reason why the fishing is not prosecuted
here so much in winter?-That is partly the reason.
7816. Is there any other reason why the winter fishing does not
succeed here?-Yes. Every experienced fisherman knows that
it is only at certain seasons of the year that the ling come over
the ground in any quantities; and that is, I think, from, say the
month of April or May to September. That has been the case for
generations.
7817. Ling is your staple fish here, upon which the success of the
fishing depends?-Yes; altogether.
7818. Would it not be worth while to prosecute the fishing in
winter for the purpose of taking cod and haddock and other
fish?-I don't think it.
7819. Would it not pay without the ling?-No; the other fish
would not be got in sufficient quantities.
7820. Would they not be got in the same quantities, as on the east
coast of Scotland?-No. The ground here for one thing is not so
extensive. On the east coast of Scotland, you can have a range of
perhaps, ten or twenty or thirty miles from every port, which you
have not got here.
7821. How have you not got that range here?-The island is not
so big altogether; and there are only certain tracks of ground that
the men can fish on.
7822. It is on certain banks only that the fish caught?-Yes.
7823. And the banks here are not so extensive as on the east
coast?-They are not.
7824. Has any attempt ever been made to introduce a more
extensive winter fishing?-I don't think there is a more active
class of men anywhere than there is to the westward here. They
have small holdings, but they are constantly prepared to go off to
sea when the weather offers, and they do prosecute the fishing
often.
7825. Have you anything further to state?-With regard to the
debts of the men, I may say that in 1864 I gave them to understand
that unless those who were in debt reduced their balances in the
former year, I could not help them again with their rent; and,
except in exceptional cases, I have invariably acted upon that rule
since.
7826. You mean that when they came to you at rent time for a cash
payment in order to help them to pay their rents, you could not
help them with that unless their former balance was reduced?-
Quite so.
7827. You mentioned in a former part of your examination that a
certain amount of cash had been paid at last settlement?-Yes.
7828. That would be in November?-Yes; in November and
December.
7829. Did the whole of that pass to the fishermen, or was any rent
included in it?-That was what I paid to the people when I was
settling. There might be others besides fishermen, but I did not
distinguish between them.
7830. Do any of the rents of the Busta estate pass through your
hands?-No.
7831. But the rents to be paid to the factor would probably, where
due by fishermen, be paid out of these payments by you?-I think
so; but not necessarily in every case.
7832. Have you any arrangement with the factor about the rents of
your fishermen?-None at all.
7833. That is quite an independent concern?-Quite.
7834. I think you have prepared some statement with regard to the
amount of debts due by your fishermen during the last four or five
years?-Yes. I have prepared the following statement, showing
the number of men in debt, the total amount of their debts, and the
average amount due by each, taking it as a whole:-
No. of Men Total
Year. in debt. amount of Average.
debt.
1868 74 £1044 £14, 2s.
1869 79 1017 13
1870 72 942 13
1871 64 782 12, 4s.
7835. That shows that eight men had wiped off their debt
altogether between 1870 and 1871?-Yes. That will prove, I
think, that they are not quite so black as they have been painted.
They are improving a little. The largest balance was £49, 14s.
21/2d. in 1868, which was reduced to £41, 9s. 9d. in 1871.
7836. The amount of indebtedness at Ollaberry is not included in
these figures?-No. The figures I have now given apply only to
the Hillswick men, who number about 125.* Four of the indebted
men have left since, and are not clear of debt. That would reduce
the amount by about £50 in all of the years except the first.
* In a note subsequently received from Mr. Anderson, he says: 'I
find, in going over my books, that instead of 125 men, as I
believed fished for me last year, I have actually 147. These I find
are made up by fee'd men, and several crews who cured and dried
their own fish, and from whom I purchased their fish so dried at
the end of the season.
[Page 191]
Hillswick, Northmavine, January 12, 1872, ARTHUR
SANDISON, examined.
7837. You are a shopman and bookkeeper in Mr. Anderson's
establishment at Hillswick?-I am.
7838. You are in the course of making up, at my request, a return
from ledger D and ledger V, which are books containing the ledger
accounts of the individual fishermen employed at Hillswick?-
Yes.
7839. Do both these books contain the accounts of the individual
men?-Yes. Ledger D contains the accounts both of the crews
and private accounts of the men; and ledger V contains some
private accounts.
7840. In proceeding to make up the list, you are taking the names
of the last fifty fishermen as they appear in the ledger, and you are
inserting in the return the various particulars which have been
furnished to you?-Yes.
7841. The return which you are preparing, and which you are to
send me, will be correctly taken from Mr. Anderson's books?-
Yes, so far as I am able to do it.
7842. Is there any other person here who wishes to be examined?
(No answer.) Then I adjourn the sittings at this place until further
notice.
<Adjourned>.
Brae: Saturday, January 13, 1872.
<Present>-Mr. Guthrie
MAGNUS JOHNSTON, examined.
7843. You keep a shop at Tofts, about a mile from Mossbank?-
Yes; I think it is rather more than a mile from Mossbank.
7844. What do you deal in?-Tea, tobacco, sugar and I buy fish
too.
7845. Do you cure them yourself?-Yes.
7846. How many boats have you fishing for you?-I have no boats
of my own; I just buy a little fish in the winter time, and I cure the
men's fish in Feideland in summer. I cure at the fishing-station for
Andrew Tulloch, who was examined the other day.
7847. From what fishermen do you buy your fish?-I buy them
from any man who comes along, and wants to sell fish to me.
7848. Is that in the winter time only, or in the summer as well?-
In the winter only. I am a seaman myself, and I have followed the
sea since I was a child, but I stayed at home this year; and in the
summer season I cured Tulloch's fish, while the wife and the
bairns and I have commenced to sell a little tea and sugar and
tobacco, and to buy fish from the small fishing boats in winter.
7849. Is that the way which people hereabout usually take to start
a shop business?-I think it is.
7850. Do you keep accounts with the men that you buy the fish
from?-No.
7851. Do you pay for them in cash?-Yes; always in cash.
7852. And then they buy some provisions from you?-Yes; if they
like.
7853. Are these paid for in cash too?-Yes.
7854. I suppose you find it very uphill work competing with the
big shops?-I don't know. I am a kind of rough and ready sailor
man, and I don't take much thought about that; it does not give me
much concern.
7855. Do the men prefer to deal with the big shops in it general
way?-I cannot say as to that.
7856. Do you drive a good business with any of the men besides
those who sell their fish to you?-No; some of the neighbours may
buy a few provisions from us, but not many. A woman may sell
her eggs to us, and get provisions for them.
7857. Where do you get your tea?-From Bremner & Grant,
Aberdeen.
7858. Do they send their traveller round the country soliciting
orders?-Sometimes. He has not been round this winter, and I
get my tea when I write for it.
7859. Do you keep pass-books for the business which you do with
your customers?-Sometimes, but not many. I think my girl keeps
a pass-book sometimes, but I am no scribe myself, and I cannot
keep books.
7860. You never were a fisherman?-Not in the home fishing, but
I have been at the Faroe fishing as master.
7861. When was that?-About four or five years ago.
7862. Whose vessel were you in?-The late Mr. Hoseason's. I
have not been at Faroe since then.
7863. You went from Mossbank then?-Yes; I was one year in a
schooner for Mr. Adie too.
7864. Had you the same arrangement then about the fish which
exists now, that the men get one-half of the fish, for which they are
paid the current price at the end of the season?-Yes.
7865. Did you at that time live where you are now?-Yes; and
when I went to the Faroe fishing. Some time after I got married I
lived in Northmaven, but now for nine years past at Martinmas I
have lived at Tofts.
7866. When you went to the Faroe fishing, did you get your
supplies from Pole, Hoseason, & Company, when you were
employed by them?-No; I generally took my supplies in tea
and sugar and other things from Braidwood & Fowler, Sandport
Street, Leith. We are friendly yet, and they always send me some
present at Christmas.
7867. Then you are rather better off than most of the men?-Yes;
in some ways I am.
7868. At least you had sense to get your provisions where you
pleased?-Yes; and I had something left by my friends, besides
what I earned myself. When I was at the Faroe fishing, I did not
think they got fair-play.
7869. Who did not get fair-play?-Not even myself, or any of the
men. I knew the fish had been selling at a higher rate than the men
got the benefit of; at least I was told so.
7870. Do you think the men were not to blame for that, by making
a bargain which left them entirely at the discretion of the
merchant? The merchant could fix any price he liked, could he
not?-He could. But if I get the loan of a man's boat with which
to go to the fishing, and if I engage for one-half of the fish, then, I
think, it would only be fair-play to divide the fish in halves, and
for the merchant to take one-half, and give me the other.
7871. But you said the men sometimes felt that the price which
they got for their fish at the end of the season was lower than it
ought to have been, and I was asking you whether you did not
think the men had themselves to blame for that. They did not
reserve any power to themselves about fixing the price, but left it
entirely to the merchants?-Yes.
7872. Then your idea is, that they would have been wiser to have
kept some power about that in their own hands?-Yes.
7873. How could they manage that?-They engaged for one-half
at the Faroe fishing, and the owners of the vessels ought to have
sold the fish conscientiously, and to have given the men the benefit
of their half, after taking off curing and other expenses.
7874. But you say the men thought the owners did not always fix
the price conscientiously?-I thought so myself.
7875. How would you manage it so that the men could make sure
of getting a fair price at the end of the season?-I would let the
men stand the chance of the markets so far as the fixing of the
price is concerned.
[Page 192]
7876. But is not that the bargain that is made now, that they get the
market price at the end of the season?-I believe it is, but it was
not so then.
7877. What was the difference in the arrangement then?-I cannot
say. They engaged for one-half of the fish at that time, but I know
that sometimes they did not get the benefit of the market price.
7878. Do you think they get the benefit of the market price
now?-I cannot say, for I have not been at Faroe for five years.
7879. At that time did most of the men who were sailing with you
run accounts with the merchant for their outfit and supplies?-
Yes.
7880. Had they generally a balance to get in cash settling time?-
Yes.
7881. Did you know any men who were behind, and had a balance
against them at the end of the year?-I cannot say whether there
were any in that position.
7882. You were not in that position yourself?-Never.
7883. What was the reason why the men generally dealt with the
merchants who employed them at the fishing?-Perhaps the men
did not have money at the time with which to go and buy the
articles from any other party, and the man who owned the vessel
ready to supply them. That was the way in which it was done, so
far as I know.
7884. I suppose some of them had been supplied with goods
before they went away to the fishing?-I think so.
7885. And it was a common enough thing for an account to be
standing against them when they settled?-I believe it was.
7886. Do you think any of them would have engaged with another
merchant in preference for the fishing if they had not had that
account?-I cannot say as to that.
7887. Was there any obligation on them to engage with the
merchant who supplied them with their goods?-Not so far as I
know.
7888. Except that they thought it fair to go and fish for him in
order that he might have some security for his advances?-Of
course.
7889. How long is it since you opened your shop?-About
twenty-one or twenty-two months.
7890. On whose land is it?-The proprietor, Mr. Robert Hoseason,
is in New Zealand.
7891. Is it under the management of Pole, Hoseason, & Co.?-No.
Mr. Sievwright, writer in Lerwick, is the agent. Mr. John White
and Mr. Cheyne, Edinburgh, are the agents, and they have Mr.
Sievwright under them.
7892. Had you any difficulty in getting a place in which to open
your business?-No; I had been living there before.
7893. But was any objection made to your opening the shop?-No;
there could be none, because I have a lease of the place.
7894. For what length of time is your lease?-For ten years.
7895. Do you know whether there is a difficulty in getting
premises for shops in other parts of the district?-I cannot say,
because I never tried.
7896. What is the price of your meal just now?-The fact is, we
have none.
7897. Do you not sell meal?-Yes, I sell it. My meal is 16d. a
peck all through the year.
7898. Is that higher or lower than the price at the Mossbank
shop?-I think it is 1d. below it.
7899. Is your meal of the same quality as the meal there?-I think
so. I get my meal from Aberdeen.
7900. Is it better than the meal sold at Mossbank?-I could not say
that.
7901. Do you get it from Bremner & Grant?-Yes, and sometimes
I get it from Tulloch. I generally get it by the sack or boll; and if
any person takes a sack or boll from me, I give it at what it cost
me, adding something for freight.
7902. You sell it at 16d. per peck; how much is that per boll?-
There are about 17 pecks to the boll, but you will not get a boll to
weigh out 17 pecks. There should be 171/2 in it, but weighing out
pecks and half pecks the boll will not weigh out so much as 17.
7903. Are most of the people about Mossbank employed by Pole,
Hoseason, & Co. at the fishing?-Yes most of them.
7904. Is there anybody there who fishes for one else?-James Hay
fishes for Mr. Adie, Voe. That is all I know.
7905. Does he go to Voe to fish?-No; he fishes at Feideland
Station.
7906. With that exception, will all the people within two or three
miles of Mossbank be fishing for Pole, Hoseason, & Co.?-Yes; I
think most of them.
7907. Or within five miles?-I could not say for five miles; but I
think most of them will.
7908. Do most of them deal at Pole, Hoseason, & Co.'s shop?-I
believe they do.
7909. Very few of them come to you?-Occasionally they do, but
not to any great extent.
7910. Do you think you would have a greater number of
customers if you were employing boats yourself for the fishing?-
I cannot say; perhaps I might.
7911. Have you not thought of turning your attention that way?-
Not as yet.
7912. How is it that the men are at liberty to sell fish to you if they
are engaged to Pole, Hoseason & Co.?-They are engaged in the
summer time with the large boats, because the large boats belong
to Pole, Hoseason, & Co.; but the small boats which they use in
the winter time belong to the men themselves, and it is more
convenient for the men living in the neighbourhood of my house to
sell their fish to me than to Pole, Hoseason, & Co. It would be
better for them to sell their fish to me 6d. per cwt. cheaper than to
go to Mossbank with them. The boats are their own, and the men
are not in debt to Pole, Hoseason, & Co., and therefore they can do
with these fish as they please.
7913. Do you also buy fish from men who are in debt to Pole,
Hoseason, & Co.?-I don't know whether they are in debt to them
or not. I take fish from every one who brings them to me.
7914. Do you buy many fish during the winter season in that
way?-Not a large quantity. Perhaps. I might have about 11/2 or 2
tons of dry fish in the spring; that would be about the amount of it.
7915. Are these worth about £20 a ton?-No; I got £17, 10s. last
year for them.
7916. Then these fish don't sell so well as the summer cured
fish?-No; some of them are very small.
7917. Do the men about you not think it would be more profitable
for themselves to cure their own fish?-They could not manage it,
because they have no cellars or stores in which to keep salt, or
convenient beaches on which to dry the fish.
7918. Did not the men formerly cure their own fish in Shetland to
some extent?-I don't know.
7919. Don't they try to do it still?-Some of them do it still in
Shetland; but in the winter time they must have a booth for the
purpose of salting their fish and keeping them.
7920. Do you sell soft goods in your shop as well as provisions?-
No. We sometimes had a bit of white cotton last year for making
oil cloths, or the like of that, but we have none now.
7921. Do you think the men about you are not able to purchase
from you so much as they would otherwise do from want of having
money in their pockets?-That is a thing I cannot say anything
about, because I never know what any man has in his pocket. We
never talk about that. I might have my ideas on the subject, but I
could not speak positively about it.
7922. It is your ideas I want to know, and what, you feel in your
own experience. What is your opinion on the subject?-I believe
it might be better, for the men if they were allowed to buy or not as
they thought proper.
7923. But do you think the extent of your dealings, is less than it
would be if the men had ready money payments?-I could not say
for that.
[Page 193]
7924. Supposing you provided as good an article as Pole,
Hoseason, & Co., would the men come to you in greater numbers
if they were paid in cash shorter periods?-I could not say. They
just come to as their own minds lead them, but I believe they
would still go to Pole, Hoseason, & Co.'s shop, even although they
had money.
7925. But don't you think they are prevented from coming to you
by their want of money?-They may be in some cases.
7926. You say you have your own ideas about that: what are
they?-I believe it might be the idea of man that he might get a
better article if he could come to me for it, or go to Pole Hoseason,
& Co.'s shop, just as he liked.
7927. But suppose a man does want to come to you, and I suppose
some of your friends would be very glad to deal with you, do you
know that they are sometimes in want of money, and thus
prevented from coming?-I don't know.
7928. Do the men not prefer to go to a place where they can get
what they want on credit?-I don't know about that either.
7929. Have you never been told that?-No.
7930. Have you never suspected it?-No. I think they just go
where they please themselves. Perhaps they might get a better
bargain from another man than from me, and yet they might come
to me or go past me.
7931. Are you quite content with the system of long settlements
which goes on at Pole, Hoseason, & Co.'s, and that the men should
run accounts there?-No, I am not satisfied with that. I think it
would be better for the people to have no accounts at all.
7932. Do you mean that it would be better for their own sakes?-
Yes.
7933. What would be the advantage to them?-For my own part, if
I had no money, but if I might go to a shop and take out more
goods than perhaps I ought to do, without regard to whether I
would be able to pay them or not; whereas if a man did not have
that liberty, but went into a shop with few pence in his pocket, he
might make it spin out better, or more to his own advantage.
7934. Do you think he might get his meal cheaper by going to
another shop and paying for it in cash?-He might, or he might
take better care of his money, and manage to spin it out more.
7935. I suppose a merchant like yourself, if you were giving
long credit in that way, would require little more profit on your
goods?-Of course.
7936. But you can afford to sell cheaper because you are paid in
cash?-Yes; and I think it would be better for the public in general
if all payments were made in cash.
7937. Do you employ some men in your curing business?-No; I
just do it with my own family. Sometimes I get a little boy to help
me for a while, but that is all.
7938. When you were employed in the Faroe fishing, did you
get cash from the merchant in the course of season, when you
happened to come home, whenever you wanted it?-Yes.
7939. Could your wife get cash?-She did not require it, and she
did not ask it.
7940. Is there any sort of feeling that people don't like to ask for
cash before the settlement?-That might have been the case with
some, but it was not with me, because I did not need the cash until
it was due.
7941. Then generally you did not ask for it until it was due?-No.
7942. Do you think there is much money among the people in your
neighbourhood during the summer time?-I don't think there is
much.
7943. Is it generally spent soon after settling time?-Yes.
7944. Do you find that your cash transactions are greater at one
season of the year than at another?-I cannot say that. I have only
been one year in business, and I have not made any calculation
about that.
Brae, January 13, 1872, ARTHUR THOMAS JAMIESON, examined.
7945. You are the son of Jacob Jamieson, residing at Brae?-Yes.
7946. You were employed by me on Wednesday last to go to
Mossbank, and to purchase some articles from the shop of Messrs.
Pole, Hoseason, & Co., there?-Yes.
7947. You went there and purchased these articles without saying
who they were for?-Yes:
7948. You have brought to me half a pound of sugar, for which
you paid 3d.?-Yes.
7949. A quarter lb. of tea for which you paid 81/2d.?-Yes.
7950. A quarter lb. of tea for which you paid 7d.?-Yes.
7951. And 4 lbs. of oatmeal for which you paid 81/2d.?-Yes.
7952. You have now delivered these articles over to the clerk?-I
have.
7953. Were these all the articles you purchased?-Yes.
7954. Are they exactly in the same state now as when you bought
them?-Yes.
7955. They are contained in the same parcels as when they were
put up in the shop?-Yes.
7956. Have you any reason to believe that the prices which you
paid for the articles are different from those which are charged for
the same qualities of articles at other times in that shop?-There is
no difference, so far as I know.
Brae, January 13, 1872, JAMES BROWN, examined.
7957. Have you a shop?-Yes; a small one.
7958. Where?-At Brough, in North Delting, about two miles
from Mossbank.
7959. What do you deal in?-Groceries; nothing else.
7960. On whose land is your shop?-Mr. Gifford's of Busta.
7961. How long have you had it?-The shop has been going on for
about ten years.
7962. Were you at any time forbidden, either verbally or by your
lease, to have a shop on that ground?-No; I was told to go on.
7963. Was there a shop there before you went?-Yes; they always
used to keep some small articles there for sale.
7964. Do your customers generally pay you in ready money?-
Yes; I deal all in ready money; and I buy fish for cash. I am a
fisherman myself, and I buy few fish from others as I have a
chance, paying money for them, and my family cure them.
7965. Is it the summer fishing you go to?-I am at home all the
year round at the sea-side, and I fish there, but they are generally
small fish I take.
7966. You don't go to the haaf?-No.
7967. Have you a boat's crew?-No. My father and a boy go
along with me.
7968. Are you able to cure both your own fish and the fish which
you buy from other men?-Yes.
7969. What quantity do you buy from other men?-It varies in
different years. When there are plenty of small cod in the Sound, I
may have 11/2 ton during the season, while in other seasons I may
have only the half of that.
7970. Is it only the small fish you buy?-If bigger fish were
offered to me I would buy them, but there are no bigger fish
caught along the shores.
7971. Do you not buy fish in the summer time?-Yes.
7972. Do you buy fish brought in by the large boats at that time?-
No; the men take them to the stations.
7973. Do they not bring any of the big fish to Mossbank in the
summer?-No; they are sold at the stations.
[Page 194]
7974. Do you never go there to buy fish?-No; I am content with
the home fishing.
7975. Are the men bound to sell the small fish they get in the
winter to any particular merchant?-They sell these fish to any
one they like. There is no restriction upon them for that. Messrs.
Pole, Hoseason, & Co. never say anything about it.
7976. Do you run any accounts in your shop?-Scarcely any.
There may be 1s. or an ounce of tobacco or any small thing of that
kind, marked down.
7977. Are you often asked to give credit for a short time?-Very
often.
7978. The men are not always in possession of ready money?-
No; they are very often out of money.
7979. At what period of the year are they best off for money?-
About our place in the winter time if it is good, and if they are
catching a few cod, that is just about as good a time for them as
any.
7980. Do they not also have a good deal of cash after settling
time?-After settling time they have always a little.
7981. Is your trade better at that time than at other periods of the
year?-When it is good weather, and anything doing at the fishing,
or when the men have come from Feideland with the money which
they had got at settlement, they trade more at my shop, as a rule,
than at other times.
7982. Is June and July a good time for your shop?-Not very good;
because most of the men are away at the fishing. There may be
two or three boats manned by old men at home; but, with the
exception of what they bring in from the Sound, I have nothing
else to depend upon.
7983. Are not the men's wives and families at home, and requiring
provisions?-Yes; and I may have the chance of a few dozen eggs,
or any produce of that sort.
7984. That is for buying, but I mean for selling: is June and July a
good season for the selling of your goods?-No; it is the worst
time of the year for me.
7985. Why is that?-Because the men are all away at the fishing.
7986. But their wives are left, and they require something to keep
them alive?-They are always working in what is called the kelp,
and they go to Mr. Pole with that, so that I have no chance of
buying it. I might have a chance of it, but I don't think it would
pay me, as I don't know anything about it.
7987. Don't you think that if you had the chance of buying as
much kelp as you liked in the summer time you might drive a
better trade at your shop?-I might do a little better; but Messrs.
Pole, Hoseason, & Co. have the shores contracted for, so that they
must get the kelp. They pay so much to Mr. Gifford for the shores,
and in return for that they are entitled to the kelp, and they must
have it.
7988. Do they pay in ready money for the kelp?-They make no
scruple to give ready money for it, if a somewhat lower price is
taken.
7989. But the people generally take goods for it?-Yes; they
generally take the price in goods, or if they ask money, they will
receive 6d. less per cwt., which I think is not unfair.
7990. If it was paid in ready money, I suppose you would have a
chance of getting some of the custom of these kelp-gatherers?-
Yes; if every man had his freedom to go where he liked, I would
have a chance.
7991. Then I suppose the reason why sales are larger in winter and
less in summer is, that the people have not ready money to go to
your shop for the goods they want?-No; the men are all at the
ling fishing in the summer time and all the chance I have is in the
winter time, when they are at home fishing in the small boats.
7992. But even although they were at home in summer, they would
not have ready money with which to come to you?-No. A man
might not have ready money continually, unless he was paid every
day for his catch.
7993. Would it not be better for your business if the men were paid
every day or every week for their fish?-I don't think it would be
any better for me unless I was out at the fishing station.
7994. But their families would have the money, and they might
come to you with it?-They might.
7995. The men don't take their wives and children to the fishing
station?-No.
7996. But I suppose the wives and children have very little money
when the men are away at the stations?-Very little.
7997. Is that the reason why they get their supplies from the
merchant's shop?-Yes.
7998. Only if they had the money they might go with it to another
dealer, from whom they might get their articles cheaper?-They
might.
7999. Do you sell your meal any cheaper than it is sold at the
Mossbank shop?-No. I don't see that I can sell it any cheaper
than Mr. Pole can.
8000. What is the price of your meal just now?-I deal very little
in that. I only sell a few groceries-such as tea, tobacco, sugar,
soap, soda, spice, pepper, and things of that kind. I might also
have a sack or two of meal about the beginning of August, when it
is most required.
8001. Where do you buy your meal?-For the most part in
Lerwick, but I send south for a little of it.
8002. Do you think it would be better for the people in the
country if a ready money system were introduced?-I think so.
I think it would be better for the big merchants also to pay in
money. I have had that idea all along, that it would be better
both for the merchants and the people to pay in cash.
8003. Why would it be better for the people?-Because they
would have the cash to please themselves with, and to go
where they liked.
8004. If they could please themselves, do you think they might be
able to buy cheaper?-Yes.
8005. If you were getting a large ready-money business, do you
think you could sell cheaper than you do now?-I cannot say.
8006. But if a ready-money system were introduced you would try
to do that?-Yes, I would and I think I would be able to do so,
because the money is in hands and out of hands and there are no
bad debts.
Brae, January 13, 1872, Rev. JAMES FRASER, examined.
8007. You have been a clergyman at Sullem for twenty-four
years?-I have.
8008. You have an intimate acquaintance with the people who
live about you, and, among others, with the fishermen?-Yes.
8009. You also know the system of payment and of credit
purchases which exists in the district?-I do.
8010. Are you prepared to give any opinion as to the effect of
that system upon the circumstances and character of the people?-
Yes, I think the effect of it, to some extent, is not very good.
It is rather an extensive subject to embrace within one answer,
because there are a considerable number of people who are free
and independent; they can make their own terms; but there are a
great number of people who act on the credit system. That system
has gone on, I daresay, from time immemorial, and it has become
a great evil in the community, fraught with consequences of
different descriptions that are evil.
8011. Are there many of the people whom you would describe as
not being free to make their own bargains?-Of course there is
hardly any person free to make his own bargain who has no ready
money, and who is always in debt; and however well they may be
dealt with by the fish-curers,-and I don't know of any case of
wrong dealing in that respect-still the people are placed at a
disadvantage. I believe the whole community are placed at a
disadvantage in consequence of that, because, from the great
amount of bad debts, the merchant must charge a higher
percentage of profit upon his goods.
[Page 195]
8012. In saying that there is a great amount of bad debts, do you
mean that there is a large proportion of debts in the merchants
books which are never paid?-That is what I mean.
8013. Do you not mean that some of them are only very long
delayed, and are liquidated only when a good fishing season
comes?-Both statements are true. There are some of them
which are very long delayed, and others which are delayed for
ever, and never paid at all.
8014. You think that both these causes oblige the merchants to
charge a higher price for goods than they otherwise would do?-
Decidedly; but there is a greater evil than that still. Sometime in
the course of Providence, an accident occurs, and families are left
destitute, and the merchant has the disagreeable alternative of
either losing his own debt, or putting the law in force and driving
the families to extremity. That, however, is never done; but in
such a case there might be an appeal to public benevolence in
order to save human life, and that appeal is always responded to.
8015. What is the peculiarity in that case which you wish to point
out?-The peculiarity in that case is, that I should wish the people
to be placed in such circumstances that an appeal of that kind
would not need to be made.
8016. Do you think such an appeal would be unnecessary if the
credit system did not exist?-It would be unnecessary to a certain
extent; but, at the same time, I can hardly see how to get rid of the
credit system. I believe the merchants themselves feel it to be a
much more trying thing, or at least fully as trying a thing, as I do.
I look at it from one point of view, and they suffer from it from
another.
8017. Is it within your own knowledge that a large portion of
the people here are in a state of permanent indebtedness to the
merchants?-I don't know to what extent they may be in a state of
permanent indebtedness. I believe that a great number of them are
very seldom clear, but of course there is a large proportion of the
community who are clear from year to year.
8018. Do you mean that there is a large proportion of the men who
are clear once in a year?-There are a great number who are
always clear. There are number of the people who have never
been in debt, and I believe never will be.
8019. But you are speaking of those who are in debt: what may be
the proportion who are in that position?-I could not give an
accurate answer as to the extent to which a state of permanent
indebtedness prevails; but I know that it prevails to a much larger
extent than is good for the community.
8020. Do you think it prevails to a larger extent here than in other
districts of the country?-I don't think so.
8021. I meant than in other parts of Scotland, not of Shetland?-I
am not very well acquainted with the extent to which a credit
system prevails in Scotland.
8022. But you think it prevails to such an extent here as to be
injurious to the independence of the people?-I think so; at least
to the independence of some of the people.
8023. Do you think it tends to injure their truthfulness?-I don't
know to what extent it will do that; but I think that, to some extent,
when a man gets into arrears beyond what he is able to meet, he is
apt to lose heart, and to come short of what he might otherwise do
to clear himself.
8024. Have you known cases of that description?-I don't know to
what extent cases of that description may prevail, but I know that
there are a good many people who are living this year on their next
year's earnings, and perhaps on the earnings of a year or two in
advance of that.
8025. These are cases within your own knowledge, in which you
have derived your information from the parties you speak of?-
Yes.
8026. They have admitted it to you?-Yes, in one way or another.
I have gained some of my knowledge from the merchants
themselves, and some from the people.
8027. I suppose that sometimes, in the course of your
ministrations, you have occasion to inquire a little into the
circumstances of the men?-Yes, sometimes.
8028. In a letter which you wrote in reply to circular received
from me, you gave an opinion about some proposed method of
improvement which had for its object a separation between fishing
and farming?-I have heard such a thing proposed. It has been
discussed in the public press.
8029. Do you think the fishing could be carried on here apart from
farming?-I do not. I think the fishermen could not live without
their farms.
8030. Are they in a different position from the fishermen on the
east coast of Scotland, in Aberdeenshire or Banffshire, who have
no farms, and who live very comfortably, as I understand, by
fishing alone?-I think they are in a very different position from
these fishermen. One reason for that is, that there are frequent
seasons occurring when there are no fish on the Shetland coast.
Another reason is, that Shetland is very far from the market; and
even although fish could be got, they could not be brought to
market at a season when an adequate return could be got for them.
8031. But the curing might proceed in winter as it does in
summer?-It might, but the fishermen would not be able, as a
rule to keep themselves alive in winter by fishing alone.
8032. Do you mean that they would be much more interrupted by
the weather in winter than in summer?-They would be much
more interrupted by the weather, and they would have less chance
of fish.
8033. Are you aware whether winter fishing has been tried in
Shetland on a large scale?-Yes; not on a large scale, but it
has been tried pretty extensively. I know that from my own
experience. I tried it myself from the time when I could handle a
boat oar, until I was twenty-seven years of age. During that time I
was at the fishing every day, summer and winter, when it was
fishing weather, and living in the midst of the ocean; and I have no
hesitation in saying that if fishermen had been dependent on
fishing alone, they would have died from sheer want, leaving their
families out of the question altogether.
8034. But at that time were there any appliances for sending out
large boats such as are now sent out in summer, and for curing the
fish when brought home?-Yes, there were appliances for curing
the fish when brought home; and little boats are much more handy
about the Shetland coast than large boats at that season of the year.
8035. Do you think, as regards the hosiery trade, that it would be
expedient for cash to be paid instead of goods as at present?-
Sometimes it would be a convenience to the people to get cash,
but generally speaking, I believe it would make very little
difference. For instance, if a woman goes into a merchant's
shop with so much hosiery, and she wants so much goods which
the merchant can supply, she may just as well get them from him
as from anybody else.
8036. But supposing the woman did not want goods?-Supposing
she wants money, it would certainly be more convenient for her to
get the money.
8037. Is it the case, so far as you know, that the people are often in
want of money, and cannot get it?-I have not been aware of any
particular case in which a little money was wanted and could not
be got; but, as a general rule, money has never been paid for
hosiery in Shetland.
8038. Are you of opinion that cases of hardship are not likely to
occur in consequence of the want of money?-I could not give
a positive answer to that question. I have heard the women
complain more of there being two prices than of any difficulty
in getting money.
8039. The two prices you refer to are the cash price and the price
in goods?-Yes.
8040. What is their complaint with regard to that?-They think
hosiery is sold at a disadvantage, when goods are so much dearer
because bought with hosiery. That is the principal cause of
complaint that I have heard of.
8041. Is it understood that the goods are dearer, because they are
bought with hosiery?-That is generally [Page 196] understood; at
least in some places. There are some merchants who make it all
one price together; the same when hosiery is paid for the goods as
when they are paid for in cash.
8042. Is that not the case with all?-It is not universally the case,
8043. Therefore there are not only two prices for hosiery, but there
are two prices for goods bought with hosiery?-Yes; in some
places there are.
8044. Are you aware of that from your, own knowledge, or is it
merely from a complaint among the women?-It is a complaint
among the women, and I think there is justice in it.
8045. That is, if it exists?-Yes; and I think it does exist in some
places.
8046. Are you aware from your own knowledge that it does
exist?-I think I am pretty certain of it.
8047. Do you think a system of credit payments and of paying for
hosiery by goods has the effect of raising the prices of goods upon
the whole community?-I don't think the hosiery has any effect
of that description at all, so far as I know, but I think the credit
system must have that effect in a greater or less degree. Under that
system I think the credit which is most hopelessly given is in meal.
The fish-curer often finds himself in the greatest difficulty with a
family who are perhaps in want, and have no means to purchase
meal. In that case he is frequently obliged, out of compassion, to
give out meal for which he hardly expects to receive anything; or
if he does, it is a long time before it comes.
8048. In such a case is the fisherman not under a sort of obligation
to fish for that merchant during the next year, and until his debt is
liquidated?-I think he is under such an obligation, but in some
cases it takes a long fishing before the debt is liquidated.
8049. Do you think it is wholesome for a man to be under such a
permanent obligation to fish for the same party?-I don't think it
is wholesome for either party. But there is no help for it.
8050. Does that produce a spirit of submission and dependence on
the part of the fishermen towards the merchant?-I don't know,
but to some extent it must.
8051. Have you known any case in which that became very
evident?-I cannot say. I could not name any particular case.
8052. You have not been struck by that in the course of your
experience?-No. I have a considerable amount of acquaintance
both here and in the north part of the islands of Shetland, and
I cannot say that I have been struck with any such spirit of
dependence. In the nature of things, however, it must exist more
or less. But, in my opinion, the better way to get rid of it would be
for the people to grow their own meal, and require less of it to be
supplied to them.
8053. Do you mean that it would be an advantage if they required
to purchase less meal than they do now?-Yes. I cannot see how
the system can be got rid of, unless the people are able to cultivate
their land, and grow their own meal.
8054. Therefore you are inclined to recommend a system of
agricultural improvement as the best thing for Shetland?-Yes.
8055. Could that be effected without a separation between the
fishing and the farming?-I think so. I think if people were placed
in such security that they knew they were working for themselves,
so that they could spend every day or every hour that they had
leisure in improving their small crofts of land, they might grow
half as much again as they do at present.
8056. Even upon their small holdings?-Yes; upon the greater
number of their small holdings.
8057. And with spade labour?-Yes, with the spade, and the pick
and shovel, such as the men can manage for themselves.
8058. Is not that a very antiquated way of cultivating the
ground?-It may be antiquated, but I don't think there is any
better way coming into operation.
8059. Is there not ploughing?-Ploughing won't because, if the
ground of which these small crofts is composed is not broken up
with the pick, it is of very little consequence to plough it. I could
show examples of that in different parts of Shetland. Land
ploughed is not half the value of land trenched, and the fisherman
might trench a bit of land during winter for himself, and in the
course of a few years grow all that he required, or the next thing to
it, without costing the proprietor or anybody else anything.
8060. Would he grow a much heavier crop on land cultivated in
that way with the spade, than a large farmer would if he ploughed
his fields?-Yes, a much larger crop than a large farmer would if
he ploughed that same field. I have not the slightest doubt of that.
8061. Are you speaking now from your own observation of both
systems in Shetland?-I am.
8062. Do you know cases where an intelligent and active small
crofter, cultivating in the way you have described with the spade,
has grown heavier crops than a farmer, equally active and equally
intelligent, has grown with plough cultivation?-Yes, upon the
same kind of ground.
8063. Was that in this neighbourhood?-Yes.
8064. And the circumstances in both cases being exactly the same,
except the difference between spade and plough cultivation?-I
think the difference in that case would certainly be in favour of
the larger cultivator; because I think the agricultural intelligence
should be in favour of a man who works with the plough.
8065. You think the intelligence was perhaps superior in that
case?-I think it was superior, and the crop inferior.
8066. Is that a thing which you have frequently
observed?-Not very frequently, because land is not very
frequently cultivated in the way I have mentioned, as the
parties cultivating it, or who should cultivate it, don't have
any security. They don't know who they are working for.
There is a man pretty near me (Mr Gifford knows him),
who has been cultivating in the way I have mentioned, and
there is another man pretty near here who is cultivating in
the way that you speak of, and there is no comparison
whatever between the crops.
8067. Then is the remedy you suggest, a system of
lease-holding?-Yes.
8068. Is there any reason why that does not exist in
Shetland already?-I don't know any particular reason for
it.
8069. Have the tenants in many places not been offered
leases?-In some cases they have been offered leases, and I
believe they have refused them, but I don't know for what
reason.
8070. Have you any observation to make upon the subject
of fixing the price of the fishermen's catch at the end of the
season?-I have no observation to make on that subject, for
I am not able to see how far it would be to the advantage
of the fisherman to fix the price beforehand. I don't think
it would be an advantage to him; indeed, I think the
fisherman would be greater loser by a fixed price than he
is just now.
8071. Is that because he would still have to obtain his
supplies on credit?-Not so much that; but for one thing,
the merchant's or fish-curer's knowledge of what the
market is likely to be, is ahead of that of the fisherman; and
I think it holds good more or less, by common sense, that
the merchant should try to secure safety for himself in the
bargain which he makes. The probability therefore is, that
the fisherman would suffer more in that case than he does
at present.
8072. You think the merchant has better means of
foreseeing the course of the markets than the fishermen?-I
think so; and although I believe the merchants hereabouts
would generally give the men all the advantage they could,
I cannot see how it would be possible that by fixing the
price beforehand the fisherman would be the gainer.
8073. Is there any reason to suppose that the fishermen
have not a sufficient voice in fixing what the current price
is to be at the end of the season?-I don't think the
fishermen have any voice in that at all, and I don't know
how far the merchant or fish-curer [Page 197] has either.
It must be regulated by the south-country markets.
8074. Would it be any advantage to the fishermen in your
neighbourhood to have periodical payments up to a certain
amount of their catch, leaving the balance to be fixed, and
the price also, or a portion of it to be fixed at the end of the
season?-I don't think that would be any advantage, and
there is one disadvantage which would certainly follow
such a system. There are some men who will take care of
their money, pay it to them when you like; but those who
take least care of it would spend it as they got it, and the
merchants having paid ready money to them, there would
be nobody who would advance anything to them when they
wished to pay their land-rent or other debts.
8075. Are these careless men not equally apt, under the
present system, to take too much in goods, and to exhaust
their earnings too early?-Perhaps they are, but there is
some check upon them under the present system, whereas if
they got the money in their own hands there would be none.
8076. What is the check upon them?-The merchant himself will
be a check, if a man is running an account which he is not likely to
meet. I am not able to say how far the system you have suggested
would be an advantage to the people. It might be an advantage,
but I cannot see it.*
* The following letter was afterwards addressed to the
Commissioner by Mr. Fraser:-
SULLAM, 18<th January> 1872.
W. GUTHRIE, Esq.
SIR,-You will perhaps allow me to supplement the evidence
gave at Brae the other day by a few notes. I did not bring out all I
wished to say on the credit system. It would require more time
than could than be allowed to one witness, and more writing than I
would like to trouble you with now, to explain it fully.
Credit has become almost a necessity in Shetland in the
present condition of the islands and it has gone on so long that
the moral ton of society has suffered in consequence of it. The
present fish-curers and merchants have not created the system; it
existed before them, and they have taken it up as a necessary evil.
Shetland fisherman may be divided into three classes. The
first class are free men. They have never been in debt, and hope
never to be. The second class, under the present circumstances,
come in debt, but they don't like it, and get out of it as soon as
they can. The third class do not seem to have any particular
dislike to it. When the Commissioner asked me at Brae if I
had known men lose their independence by coming in debt, or
something like that, I had this class in my mind, and I was puzzled
what to say. I think the loss must have been sustained long, long
ago, for they have always appeared to me as a party who never had
anything of the sort to lose.
The moral evils of the system to this class need not be
mentioned. I will name one or two of its physical effects.
1. It largely increases pauperism, by raising a false standard
by which to regulate one's expenditure. When one of this class
falls from earning, he is fit only for the Parochial Board.
2. In case of a boat accident, or in a season like 1869, the
prospect is most appalling. In that year the crop was very largely a
failure; many of the people had gone as deep in debt as they could
go; and but for the aid sent by the Society of Friends, some of the
people would assuredly have died, and a still larger number could
not have sown their ground. The timely aid sent by the Friends
and those whom they enlisted with them in their benevolent work,
prevented both these consequences.
There are not a few families in Shetland-bereaved families, I
mean-supported by funds supplied by the benevolence of south
country ladies and gentlemen, who otherwise must have starved, or
fall with a crushing weight upon the Parochial Boards.
Now, for all this, so far as I know, there is only one remedy-
the improvement of the soil. The people are cultivating just the
same ground their <great-grandfathers> did, and most of the ground
now cultivated has never rested in the memory of living man, or
perhaps as long before. New earth is made to supply the yearly
waste, and thus the ground in the neighbourhood of a few small
farms is so robbed as to be rendered useless for generations,
unless it happens to have earth enough to allow of laying down the
surface, and a proprietor or factor who binds the people to do it.
There is, in general, plenty of unreclaimed land lying close by
these small farms which might be broken up and brought under
crop, and some of the old allowed to rest. In some places there are
plenty of stones to hedge in a small croft of land where grass might
be sown, but nothing is done. That unreclaimed land is made to
do duty by keeping life in a few cows-two, or more. During the
summer season, the merchant supplies the meal as long as he can,
and so things continue its they are. No man who may receive a
forty days', or even a six months', warning, is likely to exert
himself to bring more ground under crop. The thing wanted is
leasehold of the property by the tenant. But I am told the tenants
will not take a lease. It may be so; but before the statement be
admitted as true, the sort of lease offered them would require to be
seen. There are leases offered which no man of common sense
would take. There is property in Shetland, and plenty of it, that in
a 19 years lease could be made 50 per cent. better than it is, and be
a better bargain then, than now. And all this might be done
without costing the proprietor one shilling. Let him give it lease
on reasonable terms.
There is just one thing more I would like to state. I am referring
to the evidence given last year before the Commissioner in
Edinburgh, it was then stated by Mr. Walker, that the hills were
doing the people no good, and therefore he had taken them from
them. The latter part of this statement is true, but on the former
part of it I would beg to say, the native sheep reared on these hills
supply material for knitting, and the female part of the population
are clad almost entirely from that source alone. Then the female
members of the house generally provide during the winter months
warm underclothing for the fisherman, without which he could not
pursue his hazardous occupation. Bedclothes are also largely
supplied from the same source. Leave all these to be supplied by
the fisherman from his scanty earnings, and it requires no prophet
to foretell the result.
To say that the hills were doing the people no good, either
manifests great ignorance of the subject, or something worse.-I
am, Sir, your most obedient servant,
James Fraser.
Brae, January 13, 1872, THOMAS GIFFORD, examined,
8077. You are the factor on the estate of Busta?-I am.
8078. I believe that is the largest estate in Shetland?-I believe it
is.
8079. What is the rental?-£2700.
8080. Are there any leases on the estate?-Yes, there are a good
many.
8081. Are these of the small holdings or of the large holdings
only?-There are leases of both.
8082. Do the majority of the fishermen tenants have leases?-Not
the majority.
8083. Or a considerable number?-I could hardly say there are a
considerable number; only a small number, I think.
8084. I understand that the tenants on the Busta estate are entirely
free to fish for any person with whom they may choose to
engage?-Yes; and a great many of them go south and follow
different employments,
8085. How many large mercantile establishments or shops are
there on the Busta property which are held by fish-curers?-Four.
There is one at Voe, one at Brae, one at Hillswick, and one at
Lochend (Mr. Laurenson's).
8086. I presume these are all the large establishments of that kind
in the district of Delting and Northmaven, except the shop at
Mossbank?-No; Messrs. Hay & Company have one at North Roe,
at the very farthest extremity of Northmaven, and then there are
fishing stations at Stenness and Feideland.
8087. But at these stations the fishermen are all employed by one
or other of the merchants whose places of business you have
enumerated?-Yes.
8088. And all these merchants hold their shops under the Busta
trustees?-Yes.
8089. Have they all leases?-Yes.
8090. Can you tell me from recollection what the rents of these
shops are?-The shops are not separately rented; they are let along
with farms in every case.
8091. The merchants are not tacksmen of any tenants, but they
have farms?-Yes; merely their own farms.
8092. Is there any prohibition to sub-let on these farms?-Yes; in
every case.
8093. What are the rents of these four parties?-£327 for the four.
8094. In the district from Busta extending to the march of the
Gossaburgh property at North Roe, is the greater part of the land
under your management?-Yes.
8095. The greater part of it belongs to the Busta estate?-Yes;
three-fourths of it perhaps.
8096. Is there any understanding with the four merchants you have
mentioned, that no other shops than theirs shall be opened upon
your property?-No, a shop can be opened at any place.
8097. Have you objected in any case to the opening of shops, lest
it should interfere with the business of these lessees?-I have not.
There are several shops that have been opened lately.
8098. Were these small shops?-Yes; there was one you passed at
the head of the voe going to Hillswick.
[Page 198]
8099. Is that Arthur Harrison's?-Yes; and there is one opposite it
again, on the Roenessvoe side.
8100. Is there any apprehension on the part of the Busta trustees
lest the rent paid by the larger establishments should be reduced by
the opening of smaller shops?-None.
8101. Is it not the case that some difficulty was put in the way of
Harrison opening his shop?-I believe something was said about
it, but there was no reality in it.
8102. There was an objection made to it at first, was there not?-
Yes; I believe there was some objection made, but there is nothing
in the lease that could prevent it in any way.
8103. Nothing in what lease?-Nothing in Mr. Anderson's lease
binding us to refuse, and nothing in any lease on the Busta
property.
8104. Is there not an obligation in some of the leases of the tenants
that no shops are to be opened on their holdings?-They are not
allowed to open shops unless they ask permission. That is only to
be done with the consent of the trustees.
8105. You say that Harrison was refused permission at first, but
that shortly afterwards he was granted permission to open his
shop?-I did not refuse him permission at first. Some other
parties objected to him getting it, and said that no shops could be
opened within a certain distance of Hillswick.
8106. Was it Mr. Anderson who objected?-Yes, I believe he did
object.
8107. Was that by letter, or personally?-I don't think he objected
to me by letter. He may have mentioned it to the trustees, or their
agent, but his lease had been got some considerable time before
Harrison thought of opening the shop, so that he knew he could not
stop it.
8108. But he did object notwithstanding?-Yes; I think he
objected at first when he was taking his lease. I think he wished
it to be put in that way.
8109. The hesitation which existed about giving Harrison the
lease, or the delay in agreeing to give him his lease, was due, I
suppose, to Mr. Anderson's objection?-Harrison has got a lease.
8110. He has got it now, but it was refused, or at least delayed,
when he first applied for it, was it not?-No; Harrison was only
permitted to sell lately, but he had his lease before.
8111. But was not the permission to sell refused at first in
consequence of Mr. Anderson objecting to it?-There was
something said about it, but it was not practically refused.
8112. Had you had any communication with Mr. Adie before
finally giving Harrison permission to sell?-None whatever.
8113. Neither verbally nor by letter?-Neither verbally nor by
letter.
8114. Did you understand that Harrison was going to cure fish
for Mr. Adie?-Yes; I understood he was going to cure fish for
Mr. Adie, or any other body he could get them to cure for.
8115. And he informed you that he had made a contract with
Mr. Adie for curing fish at the time when you granted the
permission?-I think he went from Busta to Lerwick, and spoke
to Mr. Harrison and some other fish-curers, and I believe he
expected to get some from Mr. Harrison, and some from Mr.
Adie; but so far as I am aware, he has only got them from Mr.
Adie. But he was quite open to take them from any party he
could make the best bargain with.
8116. Had you any letter from Mr. Anderson objecting to Harrison
opening a shop?-No, so far as I am aware.
8117. You think he only wrote to some of the other trustees?-I
am not aware that he has written a letter about it since he got his
lease. I think he objected to it about the time he took his lease.
8118. But not at the time when Harrison was wanting to sell?-
No; I think at the time when Mr. Anderson took his lease he
wished it mentioned that no other party should be allowed to sell
within four miles of him, but that was not entered in the lease.
8119. Then do you mean that no objection was made by Mr.
Anderson to Harrison being allowed to sell goods at the time
when he (Harrison) was applying for that permission?-There is
no doubt Mr. Anderson may have objected to him, or to any other
party, doing so, but he could not do it in any way so as to affect
Harrison.
8120. Was that because the power of granting or refusing
permission lay entirely with you?-I suppose so.
8121. But, in point of fact, did Mr. Anderson make no objection to
you or to any of the Busta trustees, so far as you know, to Harrison
being allowed to sell?-I am not aware whether he made any
application to the trustees, or their agent. I know that he
mentioned the matter more than once but that is all I know.
8122. He said that he thought Harrison should not get
permission?-Yes; that is all he did. I am not aware that he
wrote to the trustees on the subject after he got his lease.
8123. But he mentioned it to you when you met him personally?-
Yes; he mentioned it more than once.
8124. And that was about the time when Harrison was applying for
leave to open his shop?-Yes.
8125. I presume there is no understanding between the Busta
trustees and any of the merchants whose establishments are upon
the estate that these merchants are responsible for the rents of
the men?-There is no understanding of the kind. There is not a
single tenant on the Busta estate, out of the whole 480 on it, or out
of the 530 with whom I have to do that any of the merchants is
liable for, even as a cautioner. That used to be the case some time
before but it has not been so for a long time.
8126. Do you know, in the course of your dealings with the
tenants, whether there is any arrangement between the merchants
you have named, or any of them, to the effect that when a man
ceases to fish for one and has a debt due to him, the merchant who
engages him must undertake that debt?-There is no such
arrangement that I am aware of. Some years ago, I believe, that
was done by some parties, but I don't think it is done by any of
them now. I refer to the practice of a merchant when he engages
men taking over the debt or part of the debt which they are due to
their old employer.
8127. You don't know about that?-Yes, I know about it. I know
that there was such an arrangement some years ago.
8128. I suppose if Mr. Anderson told you it not given up, you
would be quite prepared to believe that that arrangement still
exists?-I believe it was given up, because in most of the cases
when a merchant took over a debt in that way, very little of the old
debt was paid. I have known parties take over with debts of £15
and £20 standing against them, and these debts never were
reduced.
8129. Had you any concern with that arrangement yourself?-
None whatever. I merely heard of it.
8130. I believe most of the merchants or fish-curers are also
dealers in cattle?-I believe they are, to some extent.
8131. They purchase them both privately and at the periodical
sales which are held for each estate?-Yes.
8132. Would you describe shortly the nature of the sales that are
held? They are held twice a-year, are they not?-Yes, twice a-year
for the Busta and Ollaberry tenants, and they are sometimes held at
North Roe for the Gossaburgh tenants. But there are always sales
at Ollaberry and Mavisgrind, generally at the end of October, for
the tenants cattle.
8133. What is the reason for having sales for these particular
estates?-Merely to give the tenants the advantage of having their
cattle sold. I am not aware any other reason than that. At the
Busta sale cattle belonging to other parties are taken in, as well as
cattle belonging to the tenants, although it is only for the benefit of
the tenants on the estate that the sales are held.
8134. At these sales, are many of the cattle purchased [Page 199]
by the merchants?-A good many. With reference to my former
statement, that £327 is the rent of the four shops, I wish to explain
that that is much short of what it should be. It is nearly £450 for
the four; and my explanation of that is, that Mr. Adie has got a
large park in connection with his premises, and Mr. Inkster and
Mr. Anderson have the same at Brae and Hillswick, and they all
require to buy extensively for their parks.
8135. Are you acquainted with the practice in this country of a
creditor marking cattle, and holding them as a kind of security for
debt?-Yes.
8136. Is that a common thing here?-I don't know if it is
common; but I have known several cases where it has been
done.
8137. I suppose that where a merchant does that it is not held to
interfere with the landlord's hypothec or his rent?-No. The rents
are generally paid before the merchants interfere in any way with
the cattle.
8138. But when a merchant interferes with cattle in that way, or
purchases them in at a sale, he buys them of course subject to the
landlord's right?-If he buys them at a sale, he buys them direct
off, and pays the money for them; but if he secures the animal
privately, it generally remains with the party until it is taken away.
In a transaction of that kind, the animal is priced, and it is removed
at a convenient time for both parties. It does not come to a public
sale at all.
8139. The animal, in that case, is retained by the tenant?-It is
marked and priced and retained by the tenant, and taken over by
the purchaser when he wants it.
8140. The cattle are priced the time they are pledged, or marked as
it were?-I believe they are.
8141. Is that an arrangement between the merchant and the
tenant?-Entirely.
8142. And they arrange the price between themselves, or does
the merchant put the price on the cattle?-I think it is a mutual
arrangement, because there is much competition for cattle, that the
merchant must do that.
8143. Do you think there is any understanding between the
merchants, that when a marked beast is exposed at any one of
these periodical sales, the other merchants shall not bid against
the merchant for whom the animal has been marked, but that it
shall be knocked down to him?-I believe that very few of the
marked animals are ever exposed at the sales, but I have known
them exposed in some cases. I have known cattle being marked in
that way, or pledged to Mr. Inkster at Brae; and if brought to the
sale, they would have been entered in his name or in the name of
the party who brought them, and the sellers would have got the full
price.
8144. But more commonly, cattle that are so marked are taken
over by the merchant himself privately?-Yes. I have known no
other cases of parties bringing them to the sale, except Mr. Inkster.
8145. If a merchant does take over a beast in that way privately, I
suppose you would still hold him responsible for the rent, if still
unpaid, to the extent of the value of that beast, and if the period of
your hypothec had not expired?-Certainly.
8146. Do you often have occasion to arrange with merchants in
that sort of way?-No, very seldom. The rents are very generally
paid up.
8147. Do you think the introduction of a system of short
settlements, if it could be effected, would improve the character
of the people on the Busta estate?-I believe it would.
8148. You would be in favour of such a system?-Certainly I
would.
8149. From what you know of the country and of the people, do
you think such a system would be practicable?-I don't know if it
would be practicable in some cases. With regard to the fishermen,
I don't think a short-settlement system would be practicable.
8150. Is that because the men are so much in need of advances at
the beginning of the season?-Yes; they cannot get on until they
receive advances. There would be no fishing at all if there were
no advances.
8151. But under another system would advances be
impracticable?-I don't know what that other system might be.
8152. Suppose the agreement was that the fishermen were to
receive a bounty at the beginning of the season, which would
enable them to equip themselves, and that the price for the fish
was fixed at the end, so that the men would have the advantage of
any rise that might take place, would that system be a better one
than the present, in your opinion?-They would not have the
advantage of the rise if the price were fixed.
8153. I am not supposing the price to be fixed. I am supposing the
man to get a bounty which would be calculated very considerably
within the probable value of his catch of fish for the season, and
that the settlement was made at the end according to the market
price when the fisherman would get anything additional that might
be due?-I am not aware how that system might work.
8154. Have you any knowledge of the system adopted at Wick
with regard to the herring fishery?-Yes. I know something about
it.
8155. Is there not some system of that kind followed there?-I
could not say just now.
8156. Do you think the system of paying for hosiery in goods is a
good one?-No; I think it is a very bad system. I think the hosiery
should be paid for in money, and the goods sold at the same price.
8157. Do you think the system has a bad effect in the separation of
interests it creates between the different members of the same
family?-I think it has a bad effect in this way, that some parties
would be more careful if they had their money, whereas at the
present time they don't have the chance of that.
8158. Does the same objection apply to the long settlements with
the fishermen which you make with regard to the system of paying
for the hosiery?-Yes. There is often a long settlement in the
payment for the hosiery too. There is an account run for the
payment of hosiery with many of the women. That would not
signify so much if they were paid in cash when the settlement
comes; but I am not aware that that is done, except perhaps in a
few cases.
8159. Do you think women are induced under the present system
to take more articles of dress than they require?-Not of dress.
8160. But they take anything they require unless money?-Some
of them take provisions, and meal, and tea.
8161. In your part of the country, are provisions given for hosiery
as well as goods?-Yes, and I know that hereabout a little cash is
given too, but in very exceptional cases.*
*Mr. Gifford handed in the following statement, showing the
number of holdings on the Busta and other estates under his charge
and the amount of rent-
<No. of holdings on Busta. No. of holdings on other properties.>
Under £1 29 Under £1 2
" 2 38 " 2 2
" 3 53 " 3 5
" 4 83 " 4 4
" 5 101 " 5 8
" 6 92 " 6 9
" 7 86 " 7 8
" 8 19 " 8 4
" 9 11 " 9 4
" 10 2 " 12 2
" 12 7 " 14 1
" 14 4 Larger holdings 1
Larger holdings 5 50
480
Total rental, £2701 13 8 Total rental, £344 2 0
Brae, January 13, 1872, Mrs. CHRISTIAN JOHNSTON, examined.
8162. Are you the wife of a fisherman in Muckle Roe?-My
husband was a fisherman once, but he does not fish now.
8163. Do you knit or weave?-I both knit and make gray cloth.
[Page 200]
8164. Do you sell both these articles at Brae or in Lerwick?-I sell
them to any person that I get the wool from. I don't have wool of
my own.
8165. By whom are you generally employed?-I have made some
gray cloth for Mr. Anderson and some for Mr. Adie.
8166. Is it mostly gray cloth that you make?-Yes.
8167. Do you go to the shops and get the wool when you are out of
it?-Yes.
8168. Do you buy it, or is it given to you?-We buy it.
8169. When you go back with it, are you paid for the work which
you have put upon it?-We buy the wool, and then they buy the
cloth from us again.
8170. What do you pay for the wool?-I bought 28 lbs. of it, and it
was 1s. a lb.
8171. Do you spin it yourself?-Yes.
8172. How do you make the cloth?-There are men on the islands
called wabsters who weave it.
8173. Then you spin the wool and take it to the wabsters to
weave?-Yes.
8174. Do you pay for the wool when you get it at first?-We
cannot pay for the wool until we get the cloth.
8175. Is it put down in your account?-Yes.
8176. And you are charged 1s. for it?-Yes.
8177. Do you take your web back to the merchant, or does the
wabster take it to him?-I take the web and dress it, and go to the
merchant with it.
8178. Who pays the wabster?-The merchant of course; it comes
off what I have to get.
8179. Is the wabster paid at the time when he does the work, or
when you come back from the merchant?-I pay him when I come
back from the merchant after I have sold the cloth.
8180. How much cloth would you make out of 28 lbs. of wool?-I
made 27 yards out of it.
8181. You make about a yard of cloth out of a pound of wool?-
Yes; that is generally the way of it when it is ordinary wool.
8182. What is the price put upon the cloth when you take it back to
the merchant?-That is just as the price stands; sometimes the
price is up and sometimes not.
8183. But you spoke of a particular time when you got 28 lbs. of
wool: was that long ago?-I got it in Christmas week, and I went
back with it in the month of April.
8184. What did you get for it?-I got 2s. a yard.
8185. That would be 1s. a yard, for your work and the wabster?-
Yes.
8186. Is that about an ordinary price?-It was the price that was
given then.
8187. Do you sometimes get more than that?-Yes; if the price is
up. I have got as high as 3s. 5d. for it.
8188. Was that long ago?-It is a few years since; I cannot
recollect exactly.
8189. How are you paid for the cloth: do you get money for it?-
Some pay in money and some not.
8190. Where do you get money?-I have got money in Mr. Adie's.
8191. Did you get money at that time when you went in April?-
No.
8192. Why?-I don't know.
8193. What did you get?-I had just to take anything that was in
the shop
8194. Were you told that you would not get money?-Yes.
8195. Did you want money?-Of course, I wanted a little.
8196. How much did you ask for?-I asked for the wabster's
money. It was rather more than 6s.
8197. Did you get it?-Yes.
8198. Did you say you had to pay the wabster?-Yes; he was an
old man, and I had to pay him.
8199. Why did you not get the rest in money?-The merchant
made an objection that he would not.
8200. Why?-I don't know why.
8201. Did he say the bargain was that was to be paid in goods?-
No, he could not say that.
8202. Why? Had you agreed upon a price before?-No.
8203. You were just to take the price that was the market price
when you brought the cloth back?-Yes.
8204. Did you offer to take a less price if he gave the money?-He
would give no money at all.
8205. Are you ever paid in money for your cloth?-Yes. I have
been paid in money for some cloth.
8206. Is it a general thing in the country to pay in money, or to pay
in goods?-When people have wool of their own, they make a
difference.
8207. How would they make a difference?-Because if the wool
had belonged to me I could have gone to any other merchant and
sold it, but the wool was his.
8208. Was not the wool your own in this case?-If I had been able
to pay for the wool when I took out, then it would have been my
own.
8209. You mean that you got the wool on credit?-Yes.
8210. You had bought the wool, but you had not paid for it?-Yes.
8211. It was entered against you at 1s. a pound?-Yes.
8212. Then the wool was your own, although you might be owing
Mr. Adie money for the price?-It was not Mr. Adie that that wool
belonged to: it was Mr. Anderson that I got it from.
8213. And he would not give you the money at all?-He would
not.
8214. Why did you not take it to somebody else and sell it for,
money? If you had done that, you could then have sent the 28s. to
Mr. Anderson, which you were due to him for the wool: did you
not think of doing that?-No; I did not think of doing it.
8215. Could you have done that?-I might; I don't know; I never
asked.
8216. Do you think Mr. Anderson would have objected, or would
he have allowed you to take the cloth away again after you had
brought it?-I cannot say because I never asked about that.
8217. Did you ever ask money before with which to pay the
wabster?-Yes.
8218. Did you get it?-I have got money before from Mr.
Anderson himself,-money to pay the wabster.
8219. Did you get as much as you wanted for that purpose?-Yes;
just for the wabster.
8220. But not for your own work?-No.
8221. You had to take what was due you for your own work in
goods?-Yes.
8222. I suppose you always wanted these goods for your own
use?-We are always needing goods.
8223. But were you quite content to take the goods in place of
money?-Yes, sometimes.
8224. You would rather have had the money sometimes?-Yes.
8225. But was it not the rule in the trade, and was it not the
bargain made with you, that you were to take goods, and not to
seek money?-No; there was no bargain made about it.
8226. Is it not the understanding in the trade that the cloth is to be
paid for in goods and not in money?-I don't know.
8227. Have you made any cloth since that?-Yes. I made a piece
for Mr Adie, but I got the money for it.
8228. Did you get money for the whole value?-Yes.
8229. Or was it just what you required for the wabster?-No; I got
money for all that I had to get.
8230. Did you get the wool on that occasion from Mr. Adie?-
Yes.
8231. He just charged you for the wool and gave you the whole
balance for your work in money?-Yes.
8232. What quantity was there of that?-I don't recollect; we are
always getting something out of the shop.
8233. Then you did not get the whole price of your work at that
time in money?-No; I had got something out of the shop before
that I was needing.
8234. You were due an account at the shop?-Yes.
[Page 201]
8235. Was that account as much as the value of the cloth?-No.
8236. You had something over to get?-Yes.
8237. Did you get what was over in money?-Yes, I got £1.
8238. Was that lately?-It was before Christmas.
8239. Do you keep an account with Mr. Adie at Voe?-No, I keep
no account.
8240. But you had an account at the time when you settled for that
cloth?-Yes.
8241. How long had that account been running?-For about two
years.
8242. Did you go and get the wool and make the cloth in order to
settle up that account?-Yes.
8243. Was your husband fishing at the time when you were due
that account?-No; it was my own account.
8244. Is it a usual thing for a woman, when she is making cloth in
that way, to have an account of her own with the merchant?-Yes.
8245. She gets the goods she wants and then settles for them when
she brings the cloth?-Yes.
8246. How often do you settle when you have an account running
in that way?-It is not often that I make the cloth, for I have very
little time in which to make it.
8247. Do you ever knit?-I knit very little except what is required
for my own family.
8248. Do any of your daughters help you in making the cloth or in
knitting?-Yes.
8249. You all work at it?-Yes.
8250. Have you separate accounts, or do you all keep the same
account with the merchant for your cloth?-We all keep the same
account. We have no separate accounts.
8251. Do you think you would be better off if you got the whole
payment of your cloth in money?-We might be better, but we are
always needing something from the merchant.
8252. You don't think you could buy your goods any cheaper if
you had money?-I don't know.
Brae, January 13, 1872, MRS GRACE WILLIAMSON, examined.
8253. Do you live in Muckle Roe?-Yes.
8254. Do you knit and also make cloth?-Yes.
8255. Have you heard what Mrs. Johnston said just now?-Yes.
8256. Have you the same way of dealing about your cloth which
she has described?-No. I do not make any cloth except with
what little wool I have of my own, and I sell it. I am paid for it
just at the price which is going.
8257. Are you paid for it in money or in goods?-I get the price
either in goods or in money, either way I choose to ask it.
8258. Do you generally get the same price for your cloth if you
take it in money?-Yes. I sold a piece this winter to Mr. Adie, and
I got the same in money for it as I would have got in goods.
8259. How much did you sell?-I sold about 30 yards.
8260. What was the price of it?-3s. 1d.
8261. Was the price higher then than it was in April?-Yes.
8262. Was your cloth better than Mrs. Johnston's?-I do not
know.
8263. Was that paid to you altogether in money?-No; I took some
goods.
8264. Had you an account at the shop at that time?-No. I never
had any kind of credit in the shop before. I did not mark anything.
8265. Had you got anything before from the shop at all?-No.
8266. You just took some goods at the time when you took in the
cloth?-Yes.
8267. What was the price of the goods you bought?-I can
scarcely recollect.
8268. Was it £2 or £3?-No; I think it was something more than
£1, but I cannot recollect.
8269. And you got the rest in money?-Yes.
8270. That would be £3 or £4 you would get in money?-I don't
recollect what it was. My husband was along with me, and I did
not keep an account for myself.
8271. Was it your husband that took in the cloth?-He and I were
together.
8272. Have you always continued dealing in the same manner,
getting what you wanted in goods, and as much as you required in
money?-Yes, of course. Mr. Inkster is the only merchant we
have any credit with.
8273. Have you an account with Mr. Inkster?-Yes.
8274. Does your husband fish for him?-Yes.
8275. And do you sell cloth to him too?-Yes; I sold some last
year to him.
8276. Have you a book with him?-No; we don't keep any
account ourselves. The things are entered in the book which
he keeps himself.
8277. Have you an account with him in your own name as well
as your husband?-I don't have any account in my name. One
account serves for us both.
8278. Is it customary in these parts for one account to do for both
husband and wife?-I don't know about any one except myself.
8279. Do you knit any?-A little but the cloth is the most that I do.
8280. Do you get money for your cloth at Mr. Inkster's place if
you want it?-Yes, we get money if we ask for it.
8281. Have you generally a balance to get at the end of the year
when you settle?-Yes.
8282. That balance is for your husband's fish and for your
cloth?-Yes.
8283. That is to say, what you have to get for your fish and your
cloth is a good deal more than you have to pay for things you have
got out of the shop?-Of course it is.
8284. And you have to pay your rent out of that balance?-Yes.
8285. Have you always been in the habit of getting money for your
wabster?-Yes; when we require money and ask for it we get it.
8286. Would you have got as much money two or three years ago
as you got the last time you went with cloth?-No; cloth was not
so high last year as it was then.
8287. But suppose you had, two or three years ago, taken a web
that was worth £4, would you have got £2 or £3 in money on the
price of it?-Yes, if I had asked for it I would have got it.
8288. Would you have got that five years ago if you had been
selling it at that time?-I don't know about five years ago. I don't
recollect.
8289. Did you ever get as much money before as you got on that
last occasion?-Yes; but we took goods when we required them.
There were some years ago when we were getting a bigger price.
Mr. Anderson gave 3s. 8d. out-takes (<i.e.> in goods), and 3s. 5d.
in money; but I don't recollect how long ago that was.
8290. Then there were two prices for your cloth?-Yes.
8291. Did you ever sell £4 worth of cloth four or five years ago?-
I don't think it.
8292. Did you ever sell £2 worth?-I think so.
8293. Did you ever get one-half or three-fourths of that in
money?-I cannot recollect; it was always my husband who
went with it, and he would recollect better.
8294. Did you ever get above 5s. in money for your wabster before
this time?-Yes; we have got more than that, if we asked for it.
8295. How much more?-I cannot say exactly. We just got what
we asked, unless the price was all the lower.
8296. Did you ever get 10s. in cash before?-Yes.
8297. Did you ever get 15s. in cash?-Yes.
[Page 202]
8298. Or £1?-Yes: I have got that too, if I had to get, and if I was
not taking out goods.
8299. If you got £1, how much would be the price of the web
which you took in?-I could not say unless I recollected exactly
what number of yards there were.
8300. But you said you never sold as much as £4 worth before?-I
don't mind about that. I may have done it, but I don't recollect.
8301. Do you ever mind of selling £3 worth?-Yes.
8302. Did you ever get £1 in cash out of that?-Yes; I would have
got £1 out of that.
8303. But did you get it?-Well, we have got it, but I cannot mind
the time exactly.
8304. Do you think it has been easier to get cash for your webs
during the last year than it was before?-It may have been; but we
were always needing goods, and it is just as well for us to take
goods when we are needing them, as to get money and go
anywhere else farther off. Of course, if we did not get goods
here at a reasonable price, we might get them farther off.
8305. I suppose you know that you want the goods yourself?-
Yes.
8306. And you know that the merchant would rather sell you the
goods than give you money?-I cannot say that I ever saw any
case with any merchant I ever dealt with where he would not give
us the money if we had asked for it. I never was much in debt to
any merchant.
8307. But it was mostly your husband that took the goods in?-
Yes. I never was much in with any merchant, and therefore I
could go to any place where thought I could get most for my work.
Brae, January 13, 1872, MARGARET WILLIAMSON, examined.
8308. Do you live in Muckle Roe?-Yes.
8309. Do you knit or make cloth?-I knit mostly, but I make some
cloth too. I knit men's shirts and women's sleeves.
8310. Do you knit with your own wool?-I have to buy some but I
have some of my own too.
8311. The wool was not given out to you to knit?-No.
8312. Where do you sell what you knit?-For the last three years I
have sold it in Lerwick.
8313. Do you always go to Lerwick with it?-Yes, with all that I
knit.
8314. Do you always get goods for your knitting?-Yes; I get
goods, because I can get nothing else.
8315. Do you want to get money?-I hardly ever ask for money. I
asked for a penny the last time out of 35s., and they refused to give
it to me. I bought all that I could buy out of the work I had taken
in and when it came to the last penny I asked for it, but they would
not give it. That was at Mr. Linklater's.
8316. What did he say he would give it in: sweeties?-No; they
would not keep any sweeties for fear of having to give them.
8317. What did they give you?-They gave me the penny at
length, but they said we must take goods.
8318. Did you need all these goods for your own use?-I needed
them all at that time, but I don't need them all now. If I knit any, I
need hardly any goods now.
8319. If you were knitting now, you would rather have the
money?-Yes; because I am needing hardly anything else.
8320. Do you live with your parents?-Yes.
8321. I suppose you would like to help them a little in keeping the
house if you could get money for your knitting?-Yes; because my
father is an old man, and is very sickly, and he is not able to keep
the house as he used to do.
8322. Is it the case that you cannot help him because you cannot
get money for your knitting?-Yes; I cannot help him in that way.
8323. Have you ever given away any of the goods you have got to
your neighbours for money or for provisions?-No; I kept them all
to myself.
8324. Do you sell the cloth you make in the same way that Mrs.
Johnston and Mrs. Williamson have stated?-Yes.
8325. You get some wool from the merchant?-Yes.
8326. And that is set down against your name in an account?-
Yes; until the cloth is brought back to the shop.
8327. When the cloth is brought back, the price the wool is
deducted?-Yes.
8328. Do you get the balance in money?-Yes always in money, if
I like to take it in money.
8329. Do you sometimes take it in goods?-I generally take it in
money, because I am not needing goods.
8330. Do you think you would get a bigger price if you took it in
goods?-Sometimes it is all the same. This year it is all the same
whether you take money or goods.
8331. But some years it is different?-Yes, a little.
8332. Does the merchant tell you generally that he would rather
you were to take the price out in goods?-No. The most of the
cloth which I have made has been for Mr. Adie, and he gives me
the money just soon as the goods.
Brae, January 13, 1872, GIDEON WILLIAMSON, examined.
8333. Are you a fisherman in Muckle Roe?-I am.
8334. Have you a piece of land there?-Yes.
8335. Whom do you fish for generally?-For Inkster. I have
fished for him for five years.