7028. What was the amount of your debt?-I believe it was about
£5 odds.
7029. Is it a usual thing for a man to leave the service of a
merchant because he is in his debt?-I don't know; but I could
not get supplies from him, [Page 169] and as I had to get them
somewhere, I went to another merchant for them.
7030. Have you paid up that £5?-I have not.
7031. Have you been asked to do so?-I was summoned once.
7032. Did you go to court about it?-I did not.
7033. Did you hear nothing more about it?-Of course, I paid a
little of it after I got the summons.
7034. How much did you pay then?-About 12s.
7035. How long ago is that?-It will be three years ago now.
7036. Are you going to pay the rest of it?-I don't know. I would
never have refused to pay it if I had been able to pay.
7037. Do you live with your father?-Yes; but my father is a poor
man, and I am the same, and I have not made much money.
7038. Is it a common thing for a man to leave the employment
of a merchant when he is a little bit in his debt, and cannot get
supplies?-Of course I had to leave Mr. Anderson.
7039. But is that a common thing?-I don't know.
7040. Have you known many men who have done it?-No; there
are not many that I know of. I could not live, and for that reason I
had to leave Mr. Anderson. I gave myself up to fish for him next
season if he wanted it, but he told me as much as that he would not
have me, and that I must look out for myself, and I did so.
7041. When was that?-Three years ago.
7042. Did you offer to go back to him then?-I offered to stay
with him, and I went and asked for a little supply, but he would not
grant it, and for that reason I had to leave him.
7043. Was the reason why he would not accept you, because you
could not work without supply, or was there any other reason?-I
cannot say exactly what the reason was.
7044. What did he say about it?-He told me that I was to make
the best of myself that I could, and did so. I left him and fished for
the merchant I am now with.
7045. You were a little above £5 in debt then?-Yes; between £5
and £6.
7046. Had you been as much in debt for years before?-No. I had
never been in debt before I went to Mr. Anderson. I was three
years with him at the fish-curing; and I was a little behind the first
year I went to the haaf, but it was not a great deal.
Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, ALEXANDER
SANDISON, examined.
7047. You are the father of a previous witness?-I am.
7048. Did you hear the evidence which your son gave?-Yes.
7049. Do you settle for your fishing at the end of the year in the
same way that he does?-When I was going to the fishing I did.
7050. You don't go to the fishing now?-No; I have not gone for
the last three years. I am too old.
7051. For whom did you fish when you were at it?-The last time
I was at the fishing it was for Mr. Anderson.
7052. Had you generally a balance in cash to get at the end of the
year?-Occasionally.
7053. Was there oftener a balance to get, or a balance against
you?-There was oftener a balance to get if the seasons turned
out good, or if anything occurred to make them good; but when
anything took place to render the season a bad one then there was
something due and it was put against me.
7054. When you were in debt to Mr. Anderson, was there any
necessity for you to engage to him for the following year?-No.
7055. Might you have engaged to anybody you liked?-Yes. I had
my freedom; there was no compulsion.
7056. Did you generally engage to him?-Yes.
7057. Was there any other person to whom you could have sold
your fish?-Yes; provided it had been necessary for me to have
done so; but I saw no occasion for it.
7058. You never wished to do that?-No; not in the least.
7059. Do you think it would be any advantage to the fishermen to
have a price fixed for their fish at the beginning of the season, so
that they might know what they were to get?-In some seasons it
might be, but with the fall and rise in the markets it is so uncertain.
It might be a gain or it might be a loss; they could not tell until the
time came for settlement.
7060. I suppose the fishermen have nothing to do with fixing the
price of the fish?-No; it has not been customary for them to have
anything to do with that.
7061. It has been the practice to leave it altogether to the fish
merchant?-Yes; so far as ever I knew.
7062. Are there any complaints about the way in which the price is
fixed?-There certainly are some men who make it grievance of
it; but they are men who would not be satisfied if the thing were
done in any other way.
7063. What do you think about it yourself?-I cannot say.
7064. Have you no opinion about it at all?-Very little. It does
not concern me much. I have got too old now to be able to do
anything in the way of changing it.
7065. Do any of your family knit?-Yes; but that is it thing I don't
interfere with.
7066. Is it usual for the father of a family not to interfere with his
wife and daughters' account for hosiery?-They manage their own
affairs and their accounts themselves and we never interfere with
them in any way.
7067. Do they sometimes help to keep the house?-Yes; in every
way they can.
7068. But do they sometimes help with their hosiery to provide
for the house?-Yes; occasionally, when it falls in their way.
7069. In this part of the country I understand they get provisions
for their hosiery?-Yes; to a certain extent, when required.
7070. But you have nothing to do with their accounts or their
books?-No; I have no concern with them. They see their own
books and are satisfied with them.
7071. Does a man's wife keep her own book for hosiery and settle
it herself?-Yes.
7072. Is it the same with the eggs?-Yes.
7073. The wife takes the eggs and sells them, and puts them into
her own account?-Yes. She takes them away and brings back
any stuff she wishes to get for them. That is the usual practice,
and it has been so all my days.
7074. How are the people paid for their eggs? Are they paid in
goods?-If they choose they get bread, tea, sugar, or anything else
they want; or if they are not pleased to take that, they can get the
price.
7075. Would it not be better to get the money for them?-It might
be, if there was any need for it; but if they are requiring the goods,
I don't see any use for taking the price and going to another shop
with it.
7076. Then, with regard to the fishing, you say that the man who
has money to get will get it, but the man who does not have it to
get will not get it?-I fished last for Mr. Anderson, that is three
years ago, and I have seen me have a good deal to get; but a man
who had no cash due to him could not get it. I have been a little in
debt sometimes, it was not much, but I could not get any cash until
I paid off my debt. I could have got anything I wanted out of the
shop, provided it was in small quantities; and I should have been
sorry to look for anything more until the book was clear. When
that was done, then I could get it to my satisfaction.
7077. When your book was not clear, would you have considered
yourself bound to go to fish for Mr. Anderson until it was clear?-
Yes.
7078. You thought it was fair that you should fish for him until
your debt was paid?-Yes.
[Page 170]
7079. Did it often happen, in the course of your
experience, that you were a little behind in that way?-Yes.
7080. And at such times you always thought it right to go to fish
for him?-Yes; so that I might clear it off by my fishing.
7081. Were you ever objected to for selling your fish away from
Mr. Anderson?-No.
7082. Did you not require to do that sometimes, in order to get a
little cash?-No.
7083. Do you think the fishermen are as well off now as they used
to be long ago, or are they better off?-They are much better off
now than they were in my young days, because at that time
married men who had families only got from 4s. to 6s. for their
fish; while young men who were not married, and did not require
it so much, got 7s. or 6s. 6d. or 6s. Now they get an equal price,
and I think 6s. or 7s. is a good price. When the fishing turns out to
be successful, it pays them very well.
7084. Have you always been satisfied with the quality of the things
which you got from your fish-merchant's store?-Yes.
7085. Did you get anything at all at any other store when you were
fishing?-No; but I was only a short time at the fishing. I was at
sea for fifty years, sailing to Davis Straits and all round the globe,
and I only gave that up when I could not go any longer.
7086. How many years were you fishing at the haaf?-Only four
years.
7087. You were a sailor in the merchant service before that?-
Yes.
7088. Did you go to Greenland too?-Yes; I went twenty-seven
voyages to Davis Straits.
7089. Where did you ship for that?-From Lerwick.
7090. Who engaged you there?-There were various agents. I
generally engaged with Mr. Hay. I think I went ten or twelve
voyages for him.
7091. When did you last go to the whale fishing?-I think it was
about 1850 or 1851.
7092. How were the men's wages paid then?-It was by so much
per month and an allowance of oil-money besides.
7093. Did you get an advance when you shipped?-Yes.
7094. And did you get an outfit from the agent who engaged
you?-If you required it, it was there for you; and if not, you got
your advance, and could take it where you pleased.
7095. Did you generally get your outfit from the agent in Lerwick
who engaged you?-Yes.
7096. When you came back from your Greenland voyage, in what
way did you settle?-Those who lived at a distance would get £2
or £3 if the voyage had been good, and they had money to get; and
then they would go home and come back at Martinmas to settle
with the agent. There was an account kept against them in the
book which they had to settle at that time.
7097. What quantity of goods did you generally have in your
account with the agent at Lerwick?-The greatest part of them
were sea-going clothes.
7098. You did not generally get supplies from him for your
families?-No; not very often.
7099. In those times did you ever get your outfit from any person
except the agent who engaged you?-No; we always got it from
the agent who engaged us. We could change the agent if we
thought we could make any better of it, but they were nearly all
about the same.
<Adjourned>.
Hillswick, Northmaven: Friday, January 12, 1872.
<Present>-Mr. Guthrie.
DAVID GREIG, examined.
7100. You have been for a long time in the employment of Messrs.
Hay & Co.?-I have been with them for nearly twenty-three
years-first in their Lerwick house, and I have been manager for
them at North Roe for ten years.
7101. North Roe is part of the Gossaburgh estate?-Yes.
7102. Do you manage the fishings on that estate in Northmaven
parish, as well as those in Yell?-There is a separate management
in Yell, so far as the rents are concerned. In Yell there is part of
the estate on the west side of the island, and part on the east side. I
have nothing to do with the fishermen on the east side, only with
those on the west side.
7103. The fishermen on the west side deliver their fish where?-
At Feideland.
7104. That is one of your stations?-Yes.
7105. You have prepared a note of the tenants or holdings upon
the estate, in which the number is stated to be 56: is that in this
parish only, or in Yell also?-These are the farms or holdings in
this parish.
7106. Are they entirely under your management?-Yes.
7107. The note also states that the gross rental last year was
£193, 7s. 6d., of which £17 is for Hay & Co., and the gross rental
charged to tenants is £176, 7s. 6d.?-Yes.
7108. The £17 is allowed for land held by Hay & Co.
themselves?-Yes; land and islands belonging to the estate
on which they graze.
7109. Do you know the amount of the tack duty payable by Hay &
Co. for that estate?-Not exactly. I think it is somewhere about
£130 or £140; but then they have to pay all public burdens, and
they have no claim against the proprietor for repairs on the
property. They do all the repairs at their own expense, and keep
up the property.
7110. So that it is not calculated that upon the rents payable by the
fishermen, Hay & Co. have any surplus?-I don't think it. When
the expense of management is taken off, I don't think they will
have anything.
7111. I understand the fishermen hold their land subject to the
condition of fishing during summer for Hay & Co.?-It is usually
understood so.
7112. And I presume that is the advantage which Hay & Co.
chiefly derive from their tack?-It was with a view to that that
they entered into it.
7113. What is the average rent payable by each fisherman?-The
average rental charged to fishermen is 3 guineas for each holding.
The highest is £6, and the lowest is £2, 7s. I may say that the rents
on that estate have not been altered for over 50 years, while other
estates have been raised very considerably. The land there is, I
think, much cheaper than it is throughout Shetland generally.
7114. Do you think the rents would bear an increase?-In
comparison with other places, a very considerable increase.
7115. How many of the tenants fished last year in the summer
fishing at North Roe?-Thirty-three.
7116. Of the rest, how many were unfit for fishing, and how many
were engaged in other fishings?-I think there were three tenants
fishing to other curers.
7117. In the summer fishing?-Yes; there were two at Faroe and
two or three, two at least, sailing south. Others were employed as
fish-curers and tradesmen, and in other capacities.
[Page 171]
7118. There were three fishing for other curers: was that by
permission or sufferance?-By sufferance, not by permission.
7119. No objection was taken to them doing so?-No; and no
consequences have followed.
7120. Was that about an average number of men fishing for other
curers, or was it greater or less than usual?-I think there have
been fewer in some years; and in some years I think there have
been none at all.
7121. You employed nine deep-sea boats at North Roe?-Yes, in
this parish.
7122. And you had also some crews from Yell?-Yes; there were
four deep-sea boats from Yell.
7123. There were also some small boats?-Yes.
7124. What distinction is there between the small boats and the
large ones?-There is no difference in the fishings to which they
go. They fish for the same sort of fish; but the small boats do not
carry so large a crew, and the boats themselves are not so large.
Generally these small boats belong to the men themselves; the
large boats are hired from Messrs. Hay & Co.
7125. Is the boat hire the same with you as in other places?-No;
it is less. In some places they charge 50s. and as high as £3; but in
our case it has never been above 48s.
7126. That includes the lease of the boat for the season?-Yes.
7127. What else?-Nothing but the material belonging to the boat:
she is made seaworthy, and everything belonging to the boat is
supplied,-sails, oars, cordage, compass, and everything else.
7128. How are the lines provided?-The lines are given to the
men, on their own account, at the usual selling price, and they are
allowed to pay for them in three years.
7129. Are there any other articles which are furnished to the men
as part of their outfit for the summer fishing?-I don't think there
is anything else. Of course they have their sea clothing, and
provisions and things of that kind, to get when they engage for the
fishing.
7130. Are all these usually or invariably supplied by Hay & Co.
from their shop?-No; not invariably. I have known one or two
cases where the parties have sent to Lerwick and bought their
goods there; but those parties who have done so have found it was
not a profitable thing, and have come back to me again.
7131. I suppose the carriage was expensive?-There was the
carriage and the inconvenience of sending for them, and they had
no profit by doing it.
7132. Do you mean that the price at Lerwick was as high as at
North Roe?-Yes; we generally endeavour to charge about the
Lerwick prices, only adding something for the carriage.
7133. How many fishermen were employed by you last year
altogether?-There were 98 altogether; 28 from Yell and 70
from Northmaven, in 16 boats.
7134. Have you made any note from your books of the total
amount of the earnings of these men?-I think that last year it
was approximately about £1220.
7135. Is that the total amount of their earnings from fishing, or
does it include sums due to the men from any other source?-That
is their earnings from the fishing alone.
7136. It does not include any stock that may have been purchased
from them, or their payment for any other sort of work which they
may have done for you?-No. It is taken from the book in which I
keep the private accounts against Hay & Co. I have to charge
them with that sum for the fish bought and paid for, in the ordinary
course of business.
7137. Have you got your books here?-Yes. I was not called upon
by my citation to bring them, but I have brought them.
7138. You were not called upon by your citation to bring them,
because it was thought that, in consequence of the distance you
had to come, it might cause you an unreasonable amount of
inconvenience. Is it from these books that you have made up this
statement?-Not from this book [showing]. It has been made up
from the statement kept in a private ledger with Hay & Co. It
could, however, be got from the books I have brought by going
over the accounts.
7139. You have also made a note of the average earnings of the
men?-Yes. It will be a little over £12.
7140. Does that apply only to the 98 men you have mentioned?-
Yes.
7141. Or does it also include the earnings of the boys and men
employed in curing?-No; it does not include that. It is merely the
fishermen.
7142. You say in your note that it includes men and boys?-Yes;
there is a fee'd boy in each boat, and he is included in the general
average. The fees are paid to the boys by the fishermen off their
earnings.
7143. Of the 98, how many will be boys so fee'd?-There were 8
in North Roe, and 3 in Yell; that is 11 fee'd boys out of the 98.
7144. What is the amount of the fee of each boy?-I think from £2
to 50s.; and then they have an allowance to carry two lines or
buchts, and they get the fish caught by them. They take their
chance of the fishing of these two lines.
7145. Do they sell these fish to you?-Yes.
7146. Will the takes from these lines be anything like equal to the
fees paid to the boys?-I think in or two cases this year, the lads'
fishing was more than their fee.
7147. Have the men themselves private lines of that kind?-I don't
think so.
7148. I was told elsewhere that such a practice sometimes
existed?-Perhaps it may, but I don't think it exists in this part
of the country.
7149. Then, from £1220 as the earnings of the fishing, I suppose
you would deduct £18 or £20 for the nine boys?-Yes, or about
£20 or £25; I think that would be enough. That would leave the
average for the men much higher than I have put it there.
7150. It would leave about £13, 8s. 6d. as the average earnings of
the men?-Yes.
7151. How much was the cash paid at settlement?-£553 and
£170 additional approximately for rent.
7152. That was entered in account to the credit of the men?-Yes;
that is taken off their fishings.
7153. So that the average amount paid in cash would be about
£8?-Yes; and if you deduct about £2 for each man for boat hire
and provisions through the year, then the difference between the
£8 and what is paid at the stations would give what is supplied to
their families during the season.
7154. Adding about £2 for the amount of boat hire, lines, and the
supplies at the fishing station, that makes the £10, and the balance
of £3, 8s. 6d. consists of supplies to the families during the
year?-Yes.
7155. Are most of these men's families resident near your shop at
North Roe?-I think the farthest distant is about three miles; and
these are very few, only about half-a-dozen families. The rest are
all quite near.
7156. Do the families have many cash transactions at your shop in
addition to those that enter the account?-I think so.
7157. Have you any idea what becomes of the remainder of the
money that is paid in cash at the end of the year?-I have often to
transmit cash to Hay & Co. which has been received at the shop
through the year, being returned to it for purchases.
7158. That shows that there is a considerable amount of the cash
spent in your shop after being paid to the men at settlement?-
Yes.
7159. Have you any notion of what that might amount to in a
single year?-It varies very much.
7160. Would it be £100 or £200?-No; I don't think it is so much
as that.
7161. Are there other shops in your neighbourhood where the men
and their families are in the habit of dealing for their groceries?-
They deal at several other shops. There is one small shop, Mr.
John Inkster's, quite near ours. The next is Mr. Laurenson's, about
three miles off; and the people sometimes go to Ollaberry and
Hillswick.
[Page 172]
7162. You have reason to believe that some of their cash receipts
go to these shops?-I think that is sometimes the case, and some
of their payments again come back to me-I mean that some of
those who are receiving cash from Mr. Laurenson and others come
back to me in turn.
7163. Can you say how many of the 98 men whom you employ are
in debt to Hay & Co. at the end of the season?-I don't think there
are six overdrawn accounts.
7164. But that has been after a favourable year?-Yes; it has been
a very favourable year, and that is a smaller number than usual.
7165. Do you find that men who are in your debt are generally
inclined to fish for you in the following year?-I have never had
any difficulty in that way.
7166. Do they generally come to you as a matter of course and
engage for the following season?-As a rule, I have endeavoured
to keep the men out of debt as much as possible and I have always
found it to be the best principle.
7167. But do the men who are in your debt generally come to you
to fish for the following year, in order to wipe off their debt?-I
don't think that in my ten years experience a single man has left
the employment in consequence of being in debt.
7168. Have you in some years had a much larger number than six
men in your debt at settlement?-Yes. I could not give the exact
numbers; but there have been much larger numbers than that.
7169. Perhaps three or four times as many?-I should think so.
7170. The greater number of the men at the station?-No; but
perhaps one-half of them may have been in debt in an
unfavourable year.
7171. Was that long ago?-We had a turn of unfavourable years I
think four or five years ago.
7172. Did their indebtedness sometimes run over a series of
years?-In two or three cases it has done so.
7173. But not in many cases?-No. I can only think of three cases
just now.
7174. Did these men continue to fish for you until their debt was
cleared off?-Yes.
7175. Do you remember the amount of the largest debt of that kind
you have ever had in your books?-No; I have never had occasion
to take that out. My inventory is taken in the month of May, when
half the year is gone, and when half the debts are incurred, and
then they have got considerable supplies for the rising season.
7176. Do you purchase kelp?-Yes.
7177. Are there two prices paid to the women for it?-Yes. For
the past two or three years the price has been 4s. 6d. in goods or
4s. in cash, with a royalty course to the proprietor.
7178. You have to pay a royalty to the proprietor besides what you
pay to the women?-Messrs. Hay & Co. are the lessees of the
shores, and they reserve that right to themselves, the same as if
they were the proprietors.
7179. Is there a royalty paid by the gatherers to Hay & Co.?-It is
taken off the price; because if the shores belonged to anybody else
they would have to pay it.
7180. Who would have to pay it?-Hay & Co. I think it is
generally understood that the buyer of the kelp shall pay the
royalty to the proprietor.
7181. But Hay & Co. are not both proprietors and lessees?-They
are in the same position as the proprietor, and they buy the kelp
too.
7182. How does the royalty enter your accounts?-It does not
appear in the accounts at all. The price paid to the makers is just
4s. 6d. in goods or 4s. in cash.
7183. Do you mean that an ordinary lessee would have to pay a
royalty to the proprietor in addition to the cost of the purchase of
the kelp?-I mean that if Hay & Co. were not buying the kelp
themselves, but were letting the shores to some other party, that
party would be accountable to Hay & Co. for the royalty.
7184. Therefore you don't allow for any royalty as forming part of
the tack duty payable by Hay & Co. to the proprietor?-No. I
think it is understood or expressed in their lease that they should
have the kelp shores.
7185. Then the profit made on sales of kelp by Hay & Co. is larger
than that of other lessees by the amount of the royalty usually paid
by them?-Yes.
7186. Why do you fix a different price in goods and in cash for
kelp?-Because I think the utmost value is given for the kelp
which they are warranted in giving, when it is paid for in goods,
and they have a profit on the goods; but when it is paid for in cash
they cannot be expected to receive the kelp and give the full value
for it without having any profit on it.
7187. Is there no profit on the kelp which you buy at 4s. per cwt. in
cash?-Yes; there is a profit upon that; but if we paid 4s. 6d. in
cash for it, then there would be no profit.
7188. But you give them 4s. 6d. worth of goods for because you
have a profit on the goods?-Yes.
7189. Is there no profit on the kelp when it is bought at 4s. 6d.?-
There would not be any, taking the royalty into consideration.
7190. How many tons of kelp do you sell?-I only took a note of it
for last year, when there were twelve tons.
7191. At what rate was it sold?-I did not get the account sales,
but I understood the price paid in Shetland, free on board, was £5,
10s. per ton.
7192. That is 5s. 6d. per cwt. Will it take 1s. per cwt. to put it on
board ship?-No.
7193. Where is it shipped?-The kelp I take is shipped in one
of Hay & Co.'s vessels, carried to Simbister, landed there, and
re-shipped again.
7194. By free on board, do you mean free on board at
Simbister?-Yes.
7195. You think that shipment and re-shipment would not cost 1s.
per cwt.?-I don't think it would.
7196. Therefore there would be some margin of profit upon the
kelp bought at 4s. 6d. and sold at 5s. 6d.?-If you buy the kelp at
4s. 6d. and pay 1s. of royalty, then it is actually costing you 5s. 6d.,
and there is no margin left for the expense of receiving and
shipping and transhipping again.
7197. But I understood you to say that there was no royalty
actually paid by Hay & Co.?-Neither there is; but they have the
same right to receive that royalty, or to calculate upon that royalty
as if it were paid, they being in the position of proprietors of the
property.
7198. You have said that the amount of cash paid to the fishermen
at settlement was about £553, and that the average amount due by
each man for goods to his family would be £3, 8s. 6d.: would there
be no cash advances to them during the season?-Yes.
7199. These would be included in that sum?-Yes.
7200. Would the amount of these advances be material?-I am not
prepared to say how much they would be. It would depend upon
the necessities of the man. I think in one case they amounted to
£12, 9s. 6d.
7201. Was that sum paid in cash before settlement?-Yes.
7202. That would be nearly the amount of his total earnings?-It
would be nearly the amount of the average earnings; but that man
had very high earnings.
7203. I believe you have made some calculation as to the total
amount of summer fish bought: what is it?-During the ten years I
have been manager at North Roe, there have been summer fish
bought to the value of about £7000; and during the same time the
cash paid at settlement has been about £4420. That includes the
rents of tenants who have fished; but it does not include the cash
advanced to them through the year, which in some years has been
pretty considerable. The following is a statement for the last four
years, of the value of the fishings, and the amount paid in cash at
settlement:
Cash Paid at
Value of Fishings. Settlement.
1868 About £400 £290
1869 704 335
1870 1003 540
1871 1220 723
[Page 173]
7204. Is there any winter fishing at North Roe?-There is what we
call home fishing for nine months of the year in small boats.
7205. But the proper home fishing terminates about August or
September?-The haaf fishing terminates about 12th August.
After that the men immediately resume fishing in their small
boats, and continue it until the middle of May next year.
7206. Are these the small boats you mentioned before as belonging
to the men themselves?-Yes.
7207. I think you said that of these there were only two at North
Roe?-That was in the summer time; but almost every man on the
property has a share of a small boat for the winter fishing.
7208. Are these boats generally purchased from Hay & Co.?-I
think since I came there they have generally been purchased from
them, but not altogether.
7209. Are they paid for by instalments?-Our bargain for them is,
that they are to be paid in three years, and during these three years
they stand in separate account in my books.
7210. Is there a separate boat book?-They are entered in the
general ledger, but kept in a separate account; and at the expiry
of the three years, if it is not paid off, it ought properly to be put to
the man's private account, and to become part of his shop account.
That is the rule, although, in some cases, I have not carried it out
to the extent of carrying it to the man's private account at the close
of three years.
7211. Do you generally find that that boat account is paid off
within the three years?-No; it is frequently continued longer.
7212. In what way are the fish disposed of that are taken in that
small-boat fishing in winter?-They are sold when the men come
ashore. I tell the men what price will be paid; and if they agree to
take that price, receive the fish and pay for them every time they
are delivered.
7213. Is that paid to them in cash?-They are at liberty to take
cash, or to buy goods, or do anything they like; but we never leave
these transactions unsettled.
7214. In point of fact, is it generally cash that passes, or do the
men take what goods they want at the shop?-In many cases, I
think in most cases, if the fishing is small, perhaps they want as
much, or pretty near the value, when they come ashore, out of the
shop in goods for their houses; but if they have been having a few
days' successful fishing, then they take the cash when they don't
require the goods. They are not asked to take the goods; and they
are not required to do it in any way.
7215. Are they bound to sell these fish to you in the same way as
their summer fish?-I think that is understood; but there have been
many exceptions that I have known.
7216. Are there more exceptions in the case of this small-boat
fishing than of the summer fishing?-I think so.
7217. Have you any note or book here, showing the amount of the
transactions with regard to this small-boat fishing?-No. I have
offered the men, when they came ashore, to pay them for their
haul, and then they could go where they liked with the money; but
they said, 'What is the use of doing that?-We want so-and-so
from the shop, and we would just have to give the money back
again.'
7218. How is it ascertained at the shop what amount the men have
to get in goods for their fish? Do you take a note of it at the
time?-Yes; and I enter it in the fish book.
7219. And from that note you know how much the man has to
receive in goods?-Yes; or how much he has to receive in cash.
7220. But he takes the goods if he chooses to go to the shop at the
time?-Yes.
7221. What amount of transactions of that kind may there be in the
course of a year?-Last year I think it was only about £56.
7222. Was that the whole value of the fish so purchased?-Yes;
but I think in some years since I came there it has been over £100.
7223. It is only the North Roe men you are speaking of now?-
Yes.
7224. The Yell men don't deliver their fish to you in that way?-
No; not generally.
7225. Then that sum would be paid to about 33 men?-I think
there are more than that who engage in the winter fishing. Some
of the men who go to the Faroe fishing, and some also who go
south, employ their time in winter in that way.
7226. That would make it a very small sum that is paid to the men
for their winter fishing?-Yes; it is very small.
7227. So that it rather seems the winter fishing is hardly worth
taking into account in your general transactions?-It is not.
7228. Do Messrs. Hay & Co. purchase cattle to any extent for the
purpose of selling them?-They have an island, the island of Uyea,
where they graze for their own purposes.
7229. Is that in Unst?-No; it is in this parish. I buy the cattle for
that island yearly.
7230. Is it simply for grazing purposes there that you buy the
cattle?-For no other purpose.
7231. Are they bought at public sales?-Generally they are.
7232. Do these cattle enter the accounts of the fishermen?-Yes,
mostly. They pass through their accounts; but I could show cases
where they received the cash again immediately.
7233. Are they not settled for at the annual settlement?-Yes; or
they get cash for them at any time they want.
7234. Are these cattle often taken from men who are in arrear with
their accounts?-No; they are never taken from the people who
are in arrears. If a man was in arrears, he might be asked to bring
his cow to the public sale if he was to dispose of her; and then we
might buy her or not.
7235. There is said to be a system in Shetland of marking the
horns of cattle when the merchant or landlord has a debt against a
fisherman tenant: can you explain what the practice is with regard
to that?-I believe such a practice does exist; but in my own
experience I have never set any value upon it at all, and never
practised it at North Roe.
7236. What do you understand the practice to be?-I understand
that if any one has a claim against a tenant, either proprietor or
merchant or any other party, they consider that if their mark or
initials or brand is put upon the horns of the animal, it then
becomes their property, even in cases where the animal has not
been removed from the possession of the original owner. That is
how I understand it has been done in my neighbourhood.
7237. Do you understand that it is usual for the creditor to remove
the cattle so marked from the premises of the debtor, and to keep
them in his byre or yard for some time, and afterwards to return
them upon loan, that removal being understood to be the badge of
possession or the sign of the transference of the property?-Yes. I
did that myself in one case, but it was not a direct case of that
kind. The debtor was the owner of the cow, but another party had
the cow in his possession; there was an intermediate party in the
matter. I bought it from the man, putting a value upon it, and
removed it.
7238. Charging the price to his credit in his account with you?-
Yes. I removed it to my own byre and kept it there for some time,
and then, as I was not wanting it very much, I gave it back to the
poor man who had it originally; but the man I gave it back to was
not the debtor at all.
7239. In what way was that third party in possession of it?-I
don't know. I think he had reared the animal. There is such a
system as giving a calf, if you have too many and don't want it,
to another man, and he brings it up; and when the calf comes to
be sold, one-half of the proceeds belongs to the original owner.
7240. Then you think this beast may have been in the possession
of the party on some such footing as [Page 174] that?-I think it is
possible it may have been in that way.
7241. If that was so, your debtor would only be the proprietor of
one-half of it in reality?-No; there was something peculiar in this
case, because the debtor was the sole owner of the beast.
7242. Then that was not such a case as you have mentioned?-No.
7243. May the possessor of the animal have been another creditor
of your debtor who had it?-No; he was not.
7244. Is it possible that he may have hired it from your debtor?-I
don't think it.
7245. You think he had it simply in loan?-Yes.
7246. When cattle are taken to market in that way by a creditor, do
you know, from the general understanding of the country, how the
price is fixed?-In many cases I think there is no price fixed at all.
7247. The animal is just taken generally for security of the
debt?-Yes, in the meantime, until it is sold, and then the
proceeds go to the party who put on the mark.
7248. These sales, I understand, take place at fixed places in each
district, and at certain times in the year?-Yes, in May and
October.
7249. They are conducted by public auction?-Yes.
7250. At these auctions does the creditor generally appear and bid
for the marked cattle?-I don't think it. It would not avail for him
to do so.
7251. Why?-Because any other party at the auction could buy
them.
7252. But is the bidding perfectly fair?-Perfectly fair on all
occasions.
7253. You do not know that any suspicion exists that any one of
the public may not bid, or runs any risk of the displeasure of some
powerful neighbour by bidding for cattle that are so marked?-No.
I would bid in such at case myself, and I have explained to the
country people that if the auctioneer refused a bid from anybody,
they could have an action against him for refusing it.
7254. You are now speaking of your own practice, but do you not
know that such fear of bidding against a merchant-creditor exists
in other parts of the country?-I never heard of such thing, and I
do not think it does exist.
7255. Have you known merchants buying in cattle so marked at
sales?-There is nothing of the kind practised in our quarter, and I
have never observed anything of the kind at sales elsewhere.
7256. Are you aware whether many of the fishermen at your
station keep accounts at any of the banks?-I know that some of
the men in our neighbourhood do have accounts in the banks for I
have transacted such business for some of them.
7257. Is it the case that when a man who has a bank account wants
a little money, he prefers to apply to the merchant for an advance
to account of his next year's fishing, or of the present year's
fishing, if it is during the fishing season, rather than to take it from
the bank with which he has the account?-I believe it is. This year
I sent £11 for a tenant to be lodged in one of the banks in Lerwick,
and when I handed him the deposit receipt, he said, 'Perhaps it
will not be long before I want some of this again.' I said to him, 'I
think you had better not take any of it out, but let it stand in the
bank; and if you want to keep you going until next year, you can
get it from me rather than disturb your bank account.'
7258. That was a case in which you were on such terms with the
fisherman, and had such confidence in him, that you were ready to
make him the advance?-Yes.
7259. But do you know whether it is the practice for fishermen
who have funds in the bank privately, to exert themselves
somewhat in order to get advances from an unwilling merchant,
rather than disturb their own bank account?-I have heard of such
a case in our own neighbourhood.
7260. But don't you know of any such cases in your own
experience?-No.
7261. Do you know whether it is the practice at all?-I don't know
that it is the practice.
7262. Do merchants or shopkeepers who are in the fish trade act
as bankers to their men to any extent in this part of the country?-
I cannot speak to anything of that kind being done of my own
knowledge.
7263. Do none of the fishermen keep money lying in your hands:
do they not leave it with you at the settlement?-Very seldom.
7264. Are you an agent for the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society?-
No; Hay & Co. are agents in Lerwick for that society, and I send to
them for any tickets want.
7265. Do the annual subscriptions enter the accounts of your
fishermen at North Roe?-Yes.
7266. When payments are to be made to the men on account of the
society, how are these made?-I have never had a case of the kind.
There has been only one case where a fisherman had to get money,
and he went down to Hay & Co. at Lerwick, and got it himself
direct.
7267. Would there be any difficulty, in consequence of the want of
banks in the district, in introducing a cash system of payments in a
parish like this: I mean the system of paying in cash for fish at
more frequent periods, and paying in cash for shop purchases, and
also paying in cash for hosiery?-There would certainly a great
disadvantage in doing so, in consequence of the want of a bank in
our neighbourhood, because there was a cash system of payments,
we would have to get larger sums of money from the bank; and to
fetch money from the bank, in order to make those payments,
would be rather a risky thing, seeing that we must either convey it
by special messenger from Lerwick, or by the steamer.
7268. I suppose, however, that if a cash system were common in
the country, a branch bank would probably be established at some
convenient place?-I don't know about that; I think that, having
three banks already in Lerwick, they would hardly be likely to send
a bank farther north this way. I don't think the business would pay
them to do so.
7269. Are you a member of the parochial board the parish?-I am.
7270. Are you aware whether many persons who are members of
the families of fishermen-tenants or crofter-fishermen are
supported by the board?-I know several cases of that kind.
7271. Are these persons members of the families of fishermen who
have considerable incomes from fishing and from land?-I don't
think so. I think that in cases where their children are able to
support them they are bound to do so.
7272. But is there an inclination among the people here to get
support from the poor's roll to a greater extent than existed some
years ago?-I think that feeling is on the increase in the parish,
and I think the present poor law tends to increase the feeling.
7273. Do you know what is the usual allowance given to paupers
in this parish?-As far as I can recollect, I think it ranges from 1s.
6d. to 15s. a month.
Hillswick, Northmavine, January 12, 1872, MORGAN LAURENSON,
examined.
7274. You are a merchant at Lochend?-I am.
7275. Do you deal both in drapery goods and provisions?-Yes;
but principally in drapery.
7276. Do you employ any fishermen?-A few; but I only engage
in that trade to a small extent.
7277. How many boats do you send out to summer fishing?-I had
three boats last year, two large and one small.
7278. Are you a landholder or tacksman?-No.
7279. You engage any fishermen in the neighbourhood who are
willing to make a contract with you?-Yes.
[Page 175]
7280. You have no men who are bound to fish for you?-None.
7281. Do you run accounts with the men in the way which has
been described by the previous witness and settle with them
yearly?-Yes.
7282. Do you find that the balances are generally in the
fishermen's favour, or against them?-For the last two years
they have generally been in their favour. In former years they
were not generally so; they were often against them.
7283. Do fishermen continue for any length of time to fish for you
without changing, or do you find that you have different fishermen
in your employment in different years?-I have not been very long
in the business, only since 1865. I am a new tenant comparatively;
but for the past five years, ever since I commenced to have a boat,
I have not had many changes.
7284. You must have had fifteen or sixteen fishermen in your
employment during that time?-Yes.
7285. Have they generally been the same men throughout?-Yes.
Perhaps a man in each boat has gone away to another fish-curer;
but generally they have been the same.
7286. Do you think the fact of a man having an account in your
books is generally an inducement to him to continue in your
employment for the next year?-I could not say that it is so in all
cases.
7287. But in some cases it may have that effect?-Yes; in a few
cases.
7288. Does a fisherman get accommodation from you, in the shape
of supplies of goods more readily if he fishes for you, and agrees
to continue to fish, than if he were not in your employment?-Yes.
7289. Are the fishermen generally in a condition to require that
accommodation?-Most of them are.
7290. A man may not require it every year, but in the course of
half-a-dozen years he is pretty likely, as a general rule, to be in
want of some accommodation of that sort?-Yes; that is the case
with most of them.
7291. Do you deal in hosiery to a considerable extent?-Yes.
7292. Do you buy it, or do you give out wool to knitters?-I buy it
chiefly. We give out wool to those who have not got wool of their
own; but many of our knitters, I may say the greater number of
them, have their own wool.
7293. The knitting in this district, I understand, is more of the
coarser kinds of worsted?-Yes; the finer underclothing is made
here, not fancy goods. At least, fancy goods are made only to a
very small extent.
7294. But both in the case of knitters employed by you and of
people who sell you their goods manufactured with their own
wool, is the payment made at your counter in goods or in cash?-
Invariably in goods.
7295. Are you often asked to give a portion of the price in cash?-
No; very seldom.
7296. Do the knitters run accounts with you?-Yes.
7297. And these are squared up every now and then in your books?
-Yes. As a rule, we never run long accounts. The accounts are
squared up at short intervals, and the women get a bill at the
counter if there is a balance in their favour. They get a note of
their purchases in their hands; and my usual mode is, to enter the
balance in a bill, which they hold until they return with some other
stuff and pay it. I find it is the best plan to keep the accounts
short.
7298. At settlement do they get a note?-They get a receipt for the
amount paid, and if they have a balance to receive, that is paid in
goods over the counter.
7299. If they don't want the goods at the time, how is that
arranged?-It is very rarely that they don't take the full value;
but if they do not, what remains over is left as a balance, and it is
usually carried into a new account. Sometimes they want it on a
line, stating that the balance amounts to so much, and that I shall
pay it.
7300. Is that line given in the form of an I O U, or of a bill?-I
have given it in the form of an I O U, but very rarely. I generally
put the name of the party on the line, because in some cases they
have lost the lines, and then come back to me, when it was not
entered in the book, and asked the value of them. I did not wish to
allow them to suffer for that; but as I was afraid that another party
might get the line and bring it in, I always put the name on it.
7301. You put the name on it in order to prevent the value of it
from being demanded by any person except the one to whom it
was granted at first?-Yes. I generally enter the lines in a book
now, so that I may be kept safe.
7302. Have you a list of the lines which you issue?-For some
time past, I have entered them in a book when they were given out.
7303. But you have no separate register for such lines?-No.
7304. Is there any reason why cash is not asked in these
transactions for hosiery?-It is understood that we are not
prepared generally to give any cash; but in the case of a regular
knitter who wanted some part of her payment in cash, I have never
refused, so far as I recollect, to give her what she asked. However,
it was usually a comparatively small sum that was asked in that
way.
7305. Do you sometimes buy articles all for cash, making special
bargains for them?-Occasionally, if it is anything special.
7306. In that case, is a lower price given in cash than would have
been given in goods?-Yes, because in ordinary transactions I
have a profit only on the goods sold. I may state, however, that the
women are unwilling to take cash. I remember that on one
occasion, when I was changing from one place of business to
another, I had no goods, and I offered the knitters cash for their
hosiery, at such a price as would give me a reasonable profit, but
they objected to take it. For instance, in the case of gentlemen's
undershirts, the usual price given may be from 4s. to 4s. 6d. I have
offered to give them in the one case 3s. 8d., and in the other 4s. in
cash, but they have invariably refused. They would rather leave it,
and get such goods as they wanted, than take a lower price in cash,
and that has got to be the rule. They are very fond of getting the
highest nominal value; and I can show from my books that, as a
rule, I give the full price for each article which we charge in
selling them, and have only a profit on the goods we give in
exchange.
7307. Do you sell your goods south?-Yes.
7308. Are you prepared to show that just now?-Yes. [Produces
book.] This [showing] is the sales book, containing copies of the
invoices.
7309. The women in their accounts are charged with the wool as
got by them?-Yes.
7310. Are they credited again with the knitted goods as got by
you?-Yes.
7311. Therefore, in that way the wool is really given out by you to
them, to be knitted as by persons in your employment?-No, they
are not employed by me, but I expect the women to bring back the
goods to me, as we don't sell wool, because it is rather difficult to
get. With regard to the prices, I show here an entry in a copy
invoice, under date Sept. 14, 1871 of half a dozen girls' polkas at
15s., 7s. 6d., and I also show an entry in my women's ledger of 'by
one doz. girls' polkas, 14s. 4d.,' on January 27, 1870.
7312. Was there any material difference in the price of polkas
within that period of 18 months?-No. I also show an entry under
date February 18, 1870, of 1/3 doz. girls' polkas at 15s., 5s. In
addition to the price entered in the women's ledger, there is the
price of re-dressing, which is about 6d. a dozen, and there are
boxes required in which to send them away, for which we do not
get any return.
7313. Do you swear that these girls' polkas are a fair sample of the
other articles in which you deal, with regard to the expense of
production to you and the invoice price to your customer in the
south?-Yes. I may state that we have a very strong desire to give
encouragement to good knitters, by giving them the highest prices.
7314. Can you mention any case in which you have [Page 176]
sold hosiery at a profit?-No, except in small orders, or retail
orders from private parties. In such cases, I consider it fair to
charge a small profit on the goods, in order to protect my other
customers who buy largely from me. That is the only case in
which there is any profit.
7315. Do you purchase worsted to any great extent?-Not worsted,
but wool,-the raw material from the farmers in the district.
7316. Is that spun and made up by persons employed by you?-
Yes. I do that for the purpose of finding employment for women
who have no way of their own to earn a livelihood.
7317. Do you use that wool for your own trade, or do you sell it as
worsted to merchants elsewhere?-We cannot get enough of it. It
is entirely for our own trade that it is made up, with very rare
exceptions.
7318. Do you make up all qualities of it, or is it simply the coarser
kind of wool required for the underclothing department?-The
softest wool is made up for underclothing, and the coarser is made
into tweeds.
7319. But you do not make any of the finer kinds of worsted for
fancy work?-Nothing, except to a very trifling extent. Our
knitters don't knit that kind of work.
7320. What is the rate of payment for spinning?-The girls to
whom I sell it, card, spin, and knit it usually.
7321. Then the entry you showed me was an entry of wools?-
Yes. They would be to sell the worsted once they had spun it, but
they can turn it to more account by knitting.
7322. There is nobody in your employment merely for spinning?-
I cannot say there is. Occasionally we get a woman to spin for us;
but they don't like to do that, as it is not profitable.
7323. The way in which you deal with these spinners and knitters
is, that you generally sell the wool to them?-Yes.
7324. And they bring it, and sell it back to you when made into
articles of hosiery?-Yes.
7325. Is that the invariable practice?-Yes; some of them have
offered to take the wool, and make it 'halvers.' The practice
among the people themselves is, that a party who has wool gives it
to a neighbour who has none; she knits two pieces of goods, one of
which belongs to the owner of the wool, and the other is kept by
the knitter for her trouble. I objected to that system, because I did
not think it encouraged them to make the most of their material,
and they did not, perhaps, give fair attention to the improvement
the knitting. If they buy 4s. worth of wool, and if girl knits well,
she may turn 10s. or 12s. out of that; in some cases more; so that
there is more encouragement to them by knitting the wool
themselves, than by selling it.
7326. I suppose you sometimes buy articles which have been made
by knitters with their own wool, spun by themselves, and which
has not originally been purchased from you?-Yes; a great many
of the articles of hosiery are purchased by us in that way.
7327. On whose property is your shop?-On the Busta estate.
7328. How long have you held your shop there?-Since 1864,-
seven years.
7329. Was there a shop in existence at Lochend before you opened
yours?-There had been a shop there for a long time.
7330. In the same premises?-Yes; but it has been considerably
enlarged.
7331. Where were you before?-At Ollaberry. I had the business
place there now occupied by Mr. Anderson's firm.
7332. You left that when they took it into their own hands?-Yes.
7333. Had you any difficulty in getting a shop in which to carry on
your business in this district cannot say that I had. I was offered
this place by the Busta trustees. It was in a state of dilapidation
when I took it, and they offered it to me on condition that I would
make the necessary repairs on it for myself.
7334. Was any difficulty stated about giving you the shop on
account of interfering with the business of the other merchants
in the district?-No.
7335. Do you sometimes buy fish from the fishermen who are
employed by Messrs. Anderson & Co. or by Messrs. Hay & Co.; I
mean odd hauls now and then?-I cannot say that I buy any from
Messrs. Hay Co.'s fishermen, because they would hardly sell to me
on account of the inconvenience.
7336. But are you aware whether the practice exists of the
fishermen employed by you selling occasionally to the factors of
other merchants, and the fishermen of other merchants selling
occasionally to you or your factors?-I think that practice exists
only to it very small extent.
7337. But you have detected that practice to certain extent?-I
cannot say that I have; there have been very few fish bought from
such men.
7338. Was that done because the men did not get cash advances
from the parties for when they fished regularly?-I don't think it
was. I think it was merely done from a notion on the part of the
men.
7339. Did they get merely the same price which they would have
got from their own employer?-I think they got the same price in
all cases.
7340. Then why should they not deliver their fish as usual in the
ordinary way?-I cannot say. They perhaps think it is a privilege
to sell to any one who will buy from them-although that is not
the rule. It is understood that they are not at liberty, as a rule, to
do so, but yet they do it, although it has been very rarely in my
experience.
7341. When they sell their fish in that way, are these transactions
for ready money?-Not always. They may sell them in order to
pay some goods which they have got before. If they were selling
them to me, they might bring them in order to pay some account
which they had at my shop.
7342. Are there many fishermen dealing at your shop on credit
who fish to other merchants?-Occasionally there are a few.
7343. You have accounts with them?-Yes; with a few.
7344. Are these accounts settled annually, at the ordinary settling
time, as a rule; or is there any rule, about the period for
settlement?-There is a rule that they shall settle annually after
the settlement with their own curers, and at that time they usually
bring part of the cash which has been paid to them.
7345. Do you sometimes find that these accounts are not settled at
that time?-Sometimes I do.
7346. Are you a loser to any extent by the failure of the fishermen
to settle accounts of that kind?-I consider that I am, in some
cases.
7347. But these debts sometimes run over a period of years?-In
cases where the parties are poor they do.
7348. Have there been offers made to you by fishermen who are in
these circumstances, and who are in your debt, to settle their
accounts by engaging to fish for you during the fishing season?-
No; I cannot say that there have been any offers made to me of that
sort.
7349. You have not taken on a fisherman who was in your debt in
that way?-No.
7350. Do you not know of any case in which you have taken on a
man who was in your debt, simply with the view of allowing him
to pay it off?-With the fishermen on the Busta estate I have done
so.
7351. Were these men who had incurred a debt to you while they
were fishing for another merchant?-In one instance that was the
case; but I find, as a rule, that a party who is in debt is not one who
is likely to be ready to offer his services. The fact that he is in
debt is no inducement to make him fish for you, but rather the
contrary.
7352. Do you think that, as a rule, he will continue to fish for his
former employer?-Yes.
7353. But the fact probably is, that if he is in debt to you in that
way, he is also in debt to [Page 177] his own employer?-I
believe that is generally the case.
7354. Have you known any case of a fisherman changing his
employer because he was so deeply in debt to him, that that
employer would not advance him any more goods?-I have in my
own transactions had to refuse advances to a fisherman, because I
knew he was getting into debt deeper than he could pay. I refused
to advance him any longer, and left him at liberty to do the best he
could for himself.
7355. Did he leave you at the end of the season?-Yes.
7356. And at the beginning of it new season, did he go to another
employer?-Yes.
7357. In that case how have you secured your debt?-I gave him
perhaps a year, and then I had to press him for the amount.
7358. Did you take him to court?-Yes; I took him to court,
because he refused to pay what I believed he was able to pay.
7359. Have you ever in such a case succeeded in getting any part
of your debt settled by his new employer?-Yes.
7360. How was that done? Did you, at the beginning of the fishing
season, get the new employer to make an advance to the fisherman
to account of your debt?-In the case I am referring to, the
employer at the end of the fishing season made a payment to me,
as an instalment on the debt.
7361. Was that done by arrangement with the fisherman?-Yes;
the fisherman went to his new employer and got his line or
security for a part, indeed for the whole amount, to be paid in three
instalments, in three years, because I thought it better to part with
the man when he was getting too deeply into debt, and perhaps the
change in going to another employer would lead him to better
himself.
7362. Was he likely to better himself in such circumstances?-It
chanced that he got into a good fishing boat, and he did better
himself.
7363. But that was just a chance, was it not?-Yes, I should think
so.
7364. Was it the man who wished to go to another employer when
his supplies were stopped by you, or was it you who wished him to
change?-He could not do without advances, and he would not
give me security to cover my risk in giving him any.
7365. But the new employer, in employing the fisherman, took
exactly the same risk which you refused, and I suppose gave him
supplies?-Not to the same extent. It was only after the man had
been at sea at one season at the fishing for his new employer, and
had earned a fair earning, that he paid me one-third of his account,
and became good for the balance to be paid at the end of the next
two seasons.
7366. Did that merchant become good for the whole balance of
your account?-I don't know whether it was legally or formally
gone into, but it was understood he would see that the man paid
me.
7367. Was that a single case, or has it occurred oftener with
you?-That has been the only case in my experience.
7368. Who was the merchant?-Mr. Greig, the manager for
Messrs. Hay & Co.
7369. Are you aware whether that case is of ordinary occurrence
in transactions between fish-curers, when fisherman leaves the
employment of one and goes to that of another?-I think it has
been an understood thing among them; at least some time ago,
when I was more in connection with the larger concerns of
Hillswick and Ollaberry, it was understood that when a fisherman
ran away from his responsibility, after getting into debt, his new
employer, if he was taken up by another curer in the district,
would be morally liable to pay the balance for the man, if it was
reasonable. I don't know whether that is the practice now or
not.
7870. Was there just a general understanding that the new
employer should make some kind of arrangement about it, the
particulars being settled in each case, or was there a rule that he
should become responsible for the whole debt, or for a specific
proportion of the debt?-I think it was understood that it would be
fair for the new employer to become accountable for the whole
debt, if it was reasonable, or for such a proportion of it as he
would undertake to pay for the man.
7871. Were you in the employment of Mr. Anderson at
Hillswick?-I was a partner in the business at Ollaberry. I was
in the employment of Mr. Gideon Anderson for years before,
and then I was manager at Ollaberry, until I went to Lochend.
7372. Before you left Ollaberry you had not been in business for
yourself, but you were merely manager for Anderson or Anderson
& Co.?-The firm was Anderson Brothers & Laurenson, and I was
a member of that firm.
7373. Before you left the firm, did that understanding which
you have described exist among the fishing curers in this
neighbourhood?-Yes.
7374. In your experience, was it generally acted upon?-I think it
was. I may mention that I did not have to do with the fishermen in
the summer season, while I managed the business at Ollaberry for
seven years. I had only to do with the winter fishing. In the
summer they fished for Hillswick, and I had nothing further than
ordinary transactions with the fishermen then. It was chiefly the
hosiery trade and the winter fishing that I knew about.
7375. But you were, to some extent, acquainted with the
transactions which took place in the summer fishing?-Yes.
7376. And in describing this understanding, you are speaking from
your general knowledge of the system pursued?-Yes.
7377. With what merchants, in this part of Shetland, did that
understanding exist, and was acted upon? Did it extend to Messrs.
Hay at North Roe; you have mentioned an instance in which it was
acted upon with them?-That was in my own experience since.
7378. But did the understanding extend to them at that time?-
Messrs. Hay & Co. had not a station there then: it was another
firm.
7379. To whom did that understanding extend?-To Messrs. Adie,
Mr. Inkster at Brae and to the firm of Anderson at Hillswick.
7380. Did it extend to the Mossbank people?-I cannot say. The
fishermen were not very likely to remove from here to Mossbank,
or from Mossbank to here.
7381. Did it extend to fishing stations in Yell?-I don't think so.
7382. Or further south to Reawick?-Not to my knowledge.
7383. The fishermen, you think, do not move about so far as
that?-No. Perhaps I may be allowed to say with regard to the
special case of a fisherman that I mentioned, that there was no
previous arrangement between Mr. Greig and me about a general
collection of debts from the men. I was merely pressing the debtor
for payment, and Mr. Greig came forward as a friend.
7384. Do you mean that the understanding or practice which you
have referred to does not exist so far as the Messrs. Hay are
concerned?-There is no such understanding betwixt me and
Messrs. Hay.
7385. And you have said that you did not refer to them when you
spoke of the practice existing at a former time, when you were in a
different firm?-No; I do not include them. With regard to
another previous statement I wish also to say, that so far from
wishing my customers to get into debt, I have had a notice signed
to the effect that I would not give credit to knitters beyond four
months, and then I reduced it to two months. That shows that it is
against our interest, instead of being for our interest, to let them
get into debt.
Hillswick, Northmavine, January 12, 1872, ANDREW RATTER,
examined.
7386. You are a fisherman at North Roe?-I am.
7387. Are you a tenant of Messrs. Hay there?-Yes.
[Page 178]
7388. What balance was paid to you last year at settlement?-£5,
15s.
7389. Is that about the ordinary sum you have to get in a fair
season?-Yes.
7390. How much was your account for furnishings for your
family?-Between £3 and £4.
7391. Is that about an ordinary thing too?-I think some of the
men take more than that.
7392. Do you generally deal at Messrs. Hay's shop at North Roe
for all the things you want in the way of provisions and
clothing?-Yes.
7393. Do you deal anywhere else?-Very little.
7394. Where else: at Lochend?-No; I don't deal at Lochend.
7395. Do you deal any at Lerwick?-No; I don't deal anywhere to
any great extent except at North Roe.
7396. Is it usual for the men there to deal chiefly with Messrs.
Hay?-Yes; so far as I know.
7397. Is there no other shop convenient for them?-Not very
convenient.
7398. Are the articles you get very satisfactory in quality?-Yes; I
have always found them so.
7399. What do you pay for your tea?-From 8d. to 10d. a quarter.
7400. What do you pay for your meal just now?-It varies in price,
according to the seasons. I could not exactly say what the meal is
just now, because I am not buying any at present. The last I
bought was in the summer, when I went to the fishing, and I think
paid 5s. 4d. per lispund of 32 lbs. for it.
7401. Is it by lispund weight you generally buy it?-It is
sometimes by lispund weight, and sometimes by boll weight.
7402. What is the price of a boll?-22s.
7403. Have you ever fished for other fish-curers than Messrs. Hay
& Co.?-Yes; I fished for the late James Peterson at North Roe.
That was before Messrs. Hay got the shop there.
7404. Since Messrs. Hay have had a place there, have you ever
fished for any other merchants?-No.
7405. Have you ever sold your fish to other curers?-No.
7406. Not your small fish?-No.
7407. Have you never sold a single fish to anybody except Messrs.
Hay & Co.?-I recollect selling perhaps a cwt. or two through the
winter to Mr. Inkster at North Roe.
7408. Were you paid in cash for them?-Yes.
7409. Did Mr. Greig find any fault with you for doing so?-No.
7410. Did he know of it?-Yes; I made no secret of it. I did it
openly.
7411. Is it understood that you are at liberty to sell your fish in
winter to anybody you like?-No.
7412. But you sometimes take the liberty of doing it?-Yes.
7413. Why did you prefer to sell your fish at that time to Mr.
Inkster rather than to Mr. Greig?-I had perhaps a small account
with Inkster at the time and he preferred the fish rather than cash.
7414. Does he cure fish himself?-Yes; a little.
7415. Do you go to the Faroe fishing?-No.
7416. Do you pay your rent to Messrs. Hay & Co.?-Yes.
7417. Is it settled along with your account with them?-Yes.
Hillswick, Northmavine, January 12, 1872, JANE HALCROW,
examined.
7418. You live with your mother near Hillswick?-I do.
7419. Is she a widow?-Yes.
7420. Has your mother a piece of land?-Yes.
7421. How do you work it: do you manage it for her?-No.
7422. Do you get a man to work it for you?-No, we work it
ourselves.
7423. Do you live with your mother alone, or is there anybody else
in the house?-There is a servant.
7424. Is your land on the Busta estate?-Yes.
7425. Do you do a good deal in knitting?-Not a great deal, but I
do some.
7426. Where do you sell it?-At different shops; generally at
Hillswick, and sometimes I sell it in Lerwick, and sometimes at
Ollaberry.
7427. What makes you go to Lerwick and Ollaberry with your
work?-I cannot say.
7428. Do you just go there when you want to go?-Yes.
7429. Do you get a better price there for your knitting than you do
at Hillswick?-No; it is just about the same.
7430. How are you paid for it?-Generally in goods.
7431. Do you sometimes get a little money?-It is not much
money that I get, but I get stamps when I ask them.
7432. What do you knit?-Principally ladies' slips or spencers.
7433. What is the price of them?-From 1s. 6d. to 1s. 8d.: perhaps
we may get as much as 2s. when they are good.
7434. That is the price of them in goods?-Yes.
7435. Did you ever sell any of them for all money?-No.
7436. Why?-I never asked it.
7437. Would you rather have had money?-Yes; sometimes.
7438. Then why did you not ask it?-Because I was generally
needing the goods.
7439. But you said you would sometimes rather have had the
money: why did you not ask it then? Was it because the practice
is not to give money for hosiery?-I suppose it was.
7440. Did you not ask it because you would not get it?-I knew
that if I had asked it I might have got a little.
7441. Would you prefer to get some money for your hosiery
whenever you take it to sell?-Yes.
7442. Do you think you would get less money for it than you get in
goods?-I don't know.
7443. Who do you sell it to in Lerwick?-Mr. Sinclair.
7444. Do you keep an account with him?-No.
7445. Do you keep an account at any of the shops?-Yes; I
sometimes keep an account at Hillswick with Mr. Anderson.
7446. How often do you settle it?-Sometimes at the end of the
year, and sometimes oftener.
7447. Is there anything entered in that account as having been sold
by you except hosiery?-No.
7448. Are there no eggs?-No; we sell eggs, but they are never put
into our account; they are just paid for at the time.
7449. Do you get money for them?-Yes; if it is asked.
7450. Do you often ask for money?-Not very often.
7451. Why do you not ask for it?-Because we are commonly
taking tea.
7452. Do you want the tea?-Yes.
7453. How many eggs would you sell in a month in summer?
Three or four dozen?-We might.
7454. What do you get for the dozen?-6d.
7455. Do you always take the price of it in tea?-Not always, but
generally.
7456. Do you ever sell them anywhere else except Hillswick?-
No.
7457. Are the goods which you get in payment for your hosiery put
on the other side of your account, in order to settle it?-Yes; when
the hosiery is not paid up.
7458. Do you sometimes get your hosiery paid up at the time?-
Yes, generally.
7459. But you said you had an account: is that account for goods
supplied to your family?-No; it is sometimes for cotton.
7460. Is that for your own dress?-Yes.
[Page 179]
7461. Is your hosiery always paid for in dresses and clothing for
yourself?-Generally.
7462. Do you pay your account altogether in hosiery?-Yes.
7463. You never pay money for what you want?-No.
7464. Do you deal for cotton and dresses anywhere else than at
Hillswick?-No.
7465. Do you got these things as good and as cheap there as you
could get them elsewhere?-I suppose I do.
7466. Have you never tried them elsewhere?-Yes; I have got
them in Lerwick from Mr Sinclair.
7467. Were the goods you got there of the same quality, or were
they better or worse than at Mr. Anderson's?-They were just
about the same, I suppose.
Hillswick, Northmavine, January 12, 1872, Rev. JAMES R.
SUTHERLAND, examined.
7468. You are the minister of the parish of Northmaven?-I am.
7469. How long have you been so?-Since November 1848.
7470. You are, I presume, intimately acquainted with the condition
of the people in your parish?-Perfectly so-as much as any
minister can be.
7471. And you know the system which prevails, and which has
been described in the evidence yesterday and to-day, with regard
to the payment for fish in account with the fish-curer, and also
with regard to hosiery?-Yes; I am acquainted with that generally.
7472. You have not been cited to attend here to-day?-No.
7473. But I understand you are willing and desirous to make some
statement with regard to the effects of that system upon the habits
of the people?-I am perfectly willing.
7474. Do you think the system of long payments which exists here
is a wholesome one as regards the habits of the fishermen?-I
think it is most ruinous. I think I have had very good opportunities
of judging of the effect of the system upon the people, being
intimately acquainted with them, and having received the
statements in private of a great many of them; and I cannot
conceive any system which could be more ruinous in a moral
point of view, apart altogether from its effect upon them in a
pecuniary way. In my opinion, the independence of the people is
wholly destroyed. There is scarcely a man I know, with very few
exceptions, who is not in terror, and terror that I could scarcely
describe, of the merchant to whom he is indebted, and I believe
that three-fourths of the whole of my parishioners are in debt to
some merchant or other, and thoroughly under their control.
7475. What is your ground for saying that so many your own
parishioners are in debt?-I know it from their own lips.
7476. Do you speak of the present time?-Yes, of the present
time. There are a few exceptions to that, some of which I could
point out, but not many.
7477. Do you consider that the state of indebtedness is greater at
the present time, or less, than it has been generally throughout your
experience in the parish?-I don't see any improvement in that
respect, taking the whole population. There might be one here and
one there who have got free of debt this year, because it has been
an exceptionally good year in cattle; but, taking them as the same
state of serfdom as they were twenty-three years ago, when I came
here.
7478. Your ground for that statement, I understand, is the
information you have received from the people themselves?-Yes.
7479. Do you think the people generally who make these
statements to you are to be relied upon?-Generally, I think so,
because I am exceedingly well acquainted with many of their
circumstances, and I know those who are comparatively
independent. I speak only of that independence which we might
expect from such it population. There are many of them who are
in a position which we would call pretty comfortable. I know that
from having the management of their affairs privately; but I don't
believe that, for the last fifteen or twenty years, the people who are
in such circumstances have increased in number, or have increased
the amount of the savings which are at their credit in places that I
know.
7480. That statement you have now made refers to the better-off
class among them?-Yes; to the better-off class, but they are very
few compared with the rest.
7481. You think those who are not so well off may be two-thirds
or three-fourths of your parishioners?-I may say that there are
three-fourths of them who are not in these comfortable
circumstances.
7482. With regard to the larger portion of your parishioners who
are indebted, your information is derived from their own
statements, and you say that you think generally these statements
are reliable?-Perfectly so; at least as much so as such statements
can be expected to be; but I have my information from other
sources than the people themselves. I have it from those who are
above them in station, and who know their circumstances as well
as I know them myself.
7483. I suppose a man comes to you as a clergyman, and as one
who is likely to sympathize with him when he is in difficulty about
his affairs?-Yes.
7484. Has that often happened in your experience?-Yes; and in
such cases this is what I do-Generally there are two or three
elders in the parish, who are very respectable and very
independent, and I privately consult these men as to whether the
statements which have been made to me by the people are true. I
have found that I have been oftener deceived in thinking that a
man had something saved, when he had nothing, than the other
way.
7485. It was stated, I think, in the evidence previously given, that
many Shetland people are pretty well off, and have accounts in the
bank, although they don't look as if they were worth anything, and
pretend that they have nothing, being afraid to let it be known that
they have money; and a story has been told of a man begging hard
to borrow money with which to buy a cow, and going to his
minister for the money: are you acquainted with that story?-I am
acquainted with the story. I believe it has been attributed to me; it
did not happen with me, but the minister with whom it happened
told me about it in his own house. I was there when the thing took
place.
7486. Does that story not lead to a suspicion that the complaints
which are often made to you, and which you say are the grounds
upon which you have arrived at the conclusion you have stated as
to the circumstances of a large proportion of your parishioners,
may be somewhat exaggerated by the parties?-No. That case
occurred in a parish containing between 900 and 1000 people, and
it was only a single case out of that population. It was the only
case which the parish minister, who is still alive, was able to tell
me had ever happened to him. One case out of nearly 1000 people
is not many, but I do know cases something like that. I know
people who have some pounds laid by in certain places, and they
come to me by stealth to get me to transact business on their
account with regard to these small sums. And why do they do that
by stealth? It is for fear of the merchant and for fear of the laird.
7487. Why is a man who has a little money by him afraid of the
merchant and of the laird?-That is just one of the evils of this
truck system, and this system of not dealing in ready money on all
occasions. I don't speak in favour of the population generally,
more than I would do in favour of the merchant, or of the heritor,
were it not for the truth. That is one of the consequences of the
system, and to that extent I think it is very demoralizing.
7488. You think it is demoralizing that the system [Page 180]
should lead a man to conceal the amount of his means in the way
you have related?-Yes; and it leads to more than that.
7489. Do you think that arises from the system of payment in
goods, and the system of running accounts?-Exactly.
7490. How is it the result of that system?-My opinion is, that
with the merchant and such men, it is a case of diamond cut
diamond. The fisherman who has an account with the merchant
imagines that the merchant is taking an undue profit, and that it is
from him, and therefore he sets himself to do everything he can
against the merchant. I don't approve of the way in which the men
act in order to counteract the merchant; but that is an effect of the
system, because the man believes that the merchant is taking too
large profit from him, and using him otherwise not in proper way.
7491. Is it a general impression among the people with whom you
come in contact, that the merchant has too large profits?-I will
give you an illustration, and that will serve for the whole. There
was a gentleman examined to-day to whose evidence I listened
with great pleasure, Mr. Morgan Laurenson. I do not mean that
what I am now to state should tell against him, but it is rather in
his favour; at least so far as I am to use it. At the time he left
Ollaberry, there were very considerable sums of money due
to him, certainly much more than I would have entrusted to a
population such as the general Shetland population. He had to
leave rather more suddenly than he expected, and he had not time
to collect his debts. A man from Ollaberry came over to me, and
I said, 'Are you sorry that Mr. Laurenson is going away from
you?'-He said no. I asked if it was true that the people about
Ollaberry were due him several hundreds of pounds?-He said,
'No; not we. He has had plenty out of us, he has had his profits
which might make up for all that.' I said, ' Then you are not
sorry?' and he said, 'I am not sorry for it at all.' That is just a
consequence of that sort of dealing.
7492. Was that man a type of the ordinary Shetlander?-Yes.
What he said to me was an instance of what results from this mode
of proceeding, and I give it as an illustration.
7493. Was he not an unusual kind of man who said that?-No; his
opinions are those which are privately held by nine-tenths of the
whole population of Shetland.
7494. Do they tell you so?-Yes, they tell me so, and I know their
sentiments quite well upon the subject.
7495. But Mr. Laurenson was only a partner of the firm, and the
whole of these debts would not be due to him individually?-I
understood he had certain debts that were due to himself, such as
for hosiery; at any rate it was in his name that the thing was stated.
7496. You think therefore that the system leads to species of
suspicion and a tendency to deceive?-Yes, and if you will allow
me, I will give you another illustration. There was a poor sailor
lad who died it few years ago, and a sum of about £5 or £6 was
sent through by the Board of Trade as having belonged to him.
The Board of Trade, for reasons which they are not ashamed to
own, take very good care about the payments that they shall be
made generally through the minister of the parish. This poor lad
had left a widowed father at home in this parish with a number of
children exceedingly helpless. I am not sure but that the father
was on the Parochial Board; if he was not, I think he ought to have
been, but I think he was. When the news came that his boy had
been drowned, the man came to me a distance of eight miles to
consult me, and he was very anxious about the way in which he
was to get the money through the Board of Trade. His great care
was that the merchant should not know anything about it, and
for that purpose he came to me in the dark. He had a little boy,
perhaps ten or twelve years old, whom he sent over after the
arrival of every post, but always in the dark. The boy had come so
far, that I asked him where he had come from. He told me where
he lived, so many miles distant, but he said he had been told not to
come until it was dark. I asked him why. He said, 'Because they
would know of it in the shop.' At last the man came over himself
in order to sign the documents, and he told me that the merchant
had already been at him to give him the money. Now a system
which produces such a mode of cheating one another must be
immoral.
7497. But I suppose the merchant was entitled to be paid for his
debt?-I'm only giving that as an illustration showing how
destructive the system is to the morality of the common people,
and I have only brought in the merchant because I could not give
the illustration without mentioning him.
7498. But you are speaking rather against the people at present
than against the merchant?-I am to tell the truth whatever will be
its effects.
7499. Did you advise the man not to pay the merchant?-I had
nothing to do with advising him. I gave him no advice whatever; it
was not part of my duty. I was merely employed by the Board of
Trade to hand over the money to him, and I did no more in the way
of advising him what to do with it than the Board of Trade would
have done. If he had asked me whether he should pay his debts, I
would have told him that every man should pay his debts.
7500. But did you advise him not to pay the merchant?-I did no
such thing.
7501. You left him to do as he liked with regard to that?-
Distinctly.
7502. Did you know anything about the nature of the account
which the merchant had against him?-Nothing whatever.
7503. Did you know that the account was due by him to the
merchant?-He told me he was afraid of the merchant which led
me to conclude at once that he had an account with him, but I
knew nothing more about it than that.
7504. You only inferred that he might have an account, and you
did not inquire further?-Quite so.
7505. Are you quite sure about that?-Perfectly sure. I knew
nothing about the nature of the account, or the amount of the
account, or what it was for, or anything about it.
7506. How long is it since that case happened?-It may have been
three or four years ago, I cannot be sure of the time.
7507. Do you say that in that case the account was paid?-I don't
know anything about that. The man only told me afterwards that
the merchant made him give it up. I knew nothing further about it
than that.
7508. You heard the evidence or the witnesses who were
examined yesterday?-I did.
7509. Do you think that, generally speaking, they gave a correct
description of their circumstances, and of the system on which
they carry on their dealings?-My opinion is that generally they
did not. From their private statements to me, it was my opinion-I
only hold it as an opinion-that they, under terror and under
influence, did not give the statements here which they ought to
have given, and which they had given to me in private.
7510. That is only an opinion which you have formed from your
experience of the statements of the people generally?-Yes; and
from conversations which I have had with these witnesses.
7511. One of the witnesses, Mrs. Hughson, was examined with
regard to statements made by her on a different occasion, and
which were rather different from the statements she made here: did
she make any different statement to you at any time from what she
made here yesterday?-Unless compelled, I would decline to say
anything that would criminate myself or her; but give it as my
opinion generally that the witnesses, without naming any of them,
gave a statement which I won't call untruthful, but which I say was
not at statement in accordance with what my convictions are that
they should have given, and I know the reason why.
7512. We don't in courts of law take a general [Page 181]
statement of that kind in contradiction of the veracity of witnesses.
It is only a matter of opinion; and although in this inquiry the legal
rules of evidence have not been so very strictly observed as in
courts of law, yet I think it is right to ask you whether on any
occasion Mrs. Hughson made a different statement to you than that
she made here?-With all respect to you and the office you hold, I
must decline to answer that question, because I consider it is a
question that might lead to consequences that I am not at all
disposed for the general good to be subjected to. You asked me
the question whether I approved generally of the evidence, and I
said no, I did not, but I declined to particularise any individual
person. But I will give you an illustration of the terror that is over
the people, and I won't say that that woman is not included among
those that are under that influence. I put a question to one man
concerning a very important matter in relation to what I am to
state to-day, and when I asked him to answer that question, the
woman of the house, a married woman, seized me by the arms and
exclaimed, 'Will that give offence to the merchant?-If it gives
offence to the merchant, then we won't open our mouths.' That
occurred only within the last ten days, and the same dread and
terror are over the whole community around Hillswick with very
few exceptions.
7513. What induces you to think that?-It is because they are all in
debt to the shop, less or more.
7514. If you were told that these men were not in debt, or that the
majority of them were not in debt, which may perhaps be proved
in this inquiry before it is finished, to what would you attribute
that terror then?-I cannot be told that; it cannot be proved against
the facts that I know with regard to the people.
7515. I am not saying anything about the facts, but I am merely
supposing the case that it is proved that the majority of the people
are not so much in debt as you say: how then would you account
for that terror?-I would say that if they were not very much in
debt, then that feeling would not exist. There would then be a very
different feeling among the people.
7516. May it be the case that that feeling arises from the certainty
in the minds of these people that in the future they may yet
require to run into debt to the merchant as they have done in the
past?-There is no doubt that to a certain extent that feeling
would operate, and they know, or at least they fear, and they have
stated so to me that the moment they said anything that would give
offence to the merchant, their credit would be stopped at once.
7517. Has the number of shops which exist in the district anything
to do with that feeling?-How many shops are there, may I ask?
7518. That is what I want you to tell me. Do you think that if the
shops were multiplied, and credit to be obtained at a greater
number of shops that feeling would not exist to the same extent?-
I would not be in favour of a multiplication of shops for the
purpose of getting them the means of credit. I would be in favour
of having free trade and giving no credit at all. If the number of
shops were multiplied in the way of free trade, then a wholesome
competition would be introduced, which I think would be an
advantage. But you asked me a question about how many shops
there are. Beginning at this part of the district, there is one at
Hillswick, and then there is one at Brae, and another at Olnafirth.
7519. Is there a shop at Brae?-Yes; a very considerable place of
business, one of the best in the country. Any other shops that may
exist in the district are commonly called peerie (<i.e.> small)
shops. They are very poor lads who have them, and what is more,
they are generally selling to one or other of these three big shops.
7520. What do they sell to the large shops?-If I were one of the
large shopkeepers, I would get a lad to open up a shop here and
take fish for me or to sell to me, and I would send him down
goods. The lad is apparently the merchant himself, but in reality
he is selling for another.
7521. Do you know any case of that sort?-Yes; I have known it
all my life.
7522. Do you know the individuals who are so connected with the
larger shops?-Yes. If I go west to Stenness I find a man selling
there, and if I ask him who he is selling for, he says, 'I am not the
merchant, I am selling for so and so.' I go to another one who is
apparently selling for himself, whereas it is well known that in
reality he is not selling for himself, but for another party. It is no
benefit for the population to have shops of that kind among them,
because there is no competition at all.
7523. Do they all sell for the larger merchants?-Yes; they are just
their menials or servants. I saw one of them examined yesterday.
7524. Do you know whether, in consequence of the cash payments
here, tea or other goods pass from hand to hand among the people
instead of money?-I am not aware of that. I only know about the
purchases from the shops. I do not know what the people do with
the articles after they get them.
7525. Is there any other way in which you think the present system
is injurious, or any other point on which you desire to make any
statement?-Besides being injurious in a moral point of view, the
system is also injurious by leading the husband and wife to have
separate accounts and separate transactions, and the children too.
The house, instead of being united, is in reality divided against
itself. Every member of the family has a separate interest; in that
way mutual dependence is destroyed, and that affection which
ought to subsist between children and parents has in a great
measure disappeared from Shetland. A boy gets an account of his
own when he is a mere child, or at least in boyhood, and as he
grows up he thinks he has only himself to provide for. He has not
that dependence or respect or affection for his parents which will
lead him, when old age comes to them, to provide for them. I
don't know any more prejudicial effect that any system can have
upon the community than to see the rising generation growing up
and their fathers neglected and despised, as they are in many cases
here. That feeling is produced very much among the young people
by the nature of their early training.
7526. Do you find that the parents are generally neglected by their
children, and that there is a difficulty in enforcing their obligation
to aliment their parents?-Yes; I find that very much, and any one
who is connected with the country must see it as well.
7527. Have you found that in the course of your ordinary
ministerial experience, or as a member of the Parochial Board?-
I have not been at the Parochial Board for years, but I am well
acquainted with the state of the poor who are on the roll. I will
give a case which occurred in this neighbourhood as an illustration
of what I mean. There was a woman who was on the Parochial
Board; she belonged originally to a very decent and respectable
family; her father was a small proprietor, but in the course of her
life she became very poor, and I am not sure that she was not
sometimes half demented. She had, I believe, three daughters in
this parish, they are still in the parish, grown up, and two of them I
think are mothers of families. None of them attended to their
mother, and she had to be taken by the Parochial Board and
boarded with the mother of the girl who was examined before me.
She was kept there, and she died there, and not one of her three
daughters who lived in the same parish ever came to the house
where she was lying to ask how their mother was. She died and
was buried, and not one of them came to look upon her face in the
coffin or at her grave.
7528. How far were the houses of those daughters from the place
where their mother lived?-I cannot tell exactly where they lived.
I think one of them lived about half-way between this and
Lochend, about six or seven miles from the place; another lived
near North Roe. I cannot be sure where the third one lived; but the
fact I have stated is one which is well known in the district.
7529. To what do you attribute that heartlessness [Page 182] on
the part of the daughters?-I consider it arose from their early
training produced by the system of credit.
7530. Is it not usually the case among the labouring classes, that
the children of a family, the daughters and the sons as well, are
virtually independent as soon as they begin to work for
themselves?-Where?
7531. In the agricultural districts of Scotland for instance?-No;
they are different altogether. I know about the agricultural
districts very well, and the children there, when they grow up and
go to service, the boys to herd cattle and the girls to be servants,
are away for half a year, and then they come home to school But
in this country, if a boy came home and went to school, he would
have to pay for himself. I was once a schoolmaster in one of the
agricultural districts for about four years, and, so far as I know, the
children there when they came home were not made to pay for
their own schooling or for their maintenance, but they just entered
into the family again the same as they were before they went out.
They would be away for perhaps half a year, and then they came
back again, not to lounge about idle, but to be with their parents
and to cherish and nourish them. That was the result of my four
years' experience of teaching in a large parochial establishment.
7532. What becomes of the earnings of the children in these
agricultural districts? Are they not at liberty to do with their
earnings as they please?-Certainly; and there is no doubt they
expend them upon clothing and things of that kind, just as they
require them.
7533. And just as they do here?-No; it is very different here.
They have all got accounts here, and these boys are all in debt. I
have seldom met with a boy at the beach who was not in debt at
the end of the service When I asked a boy what was the state of
matters with him, he generally told me that he was due something
to the merchant, but no such thing can take place with the children
in the south. They get no credit, no books, no accounts.
7534. We had at specimen of that yesterday where a man told us
he had been a boy at the beach, and that he had incurred debt
while he was very young?-Yes; and it is impossible that it could
be otherwise. Look at the little fee they get. They have to
maintain themselves, and I would like to know how they can do
that without being in debt.
7535. Do you think that sufficiently accounts for instances of
heartlessness such as you have mentioned just now? Might such
things not happen in any district with particular individuals?-It
might happen to a certain extent, but not so generally as it does
here.
7536. Do you say that the instance you have mentioned is only one
of many instances of similar conduct?-It is only one of many that
could be produced.
7537. Is there any other point to which you wish to speak?-Yes.
I may say that I have read over carefully the evidence that was
taken in Edinburgh, and that I concur entirely with the evidence
given there by Mr. George Smith, Mr. John Walker, and Mr.
Edmonstone of Buness. If there is any part of that evidence with
which I don't agree, it is very trifling indeed. In Mr. Walker's
evidence, this question was put to him:-' 44,368. But the greater
portion of that is not paid in coin?' I want to qualify the answer
which he made to that question. I think there has been a mistake
of the printer there, and perhaps the next sentence qualifies it. If
the next sentence is a qualification, then I agree with the whole of
the answer, so far as my knowledge goes of the country. The
question and the answer read thus:-'But the greater portion of
that is not paid in coin?-Not a fraction of it.' I would not go so
far as to say that not a fraction of it is paid in coin; but the next
sentence is, 'If a man gets £1 or £2 out at the end of the season, it
is an extraordinary thing;' and if that is taken as a qualification of
the first part of the answer, then I agree with it entirely, as well as
with the rest of Mr. Walker's evidence.
7538. Do you agree with this statement in answer to question
44,364: 'The eggs are the woman's part, she looks after the eggs
and butter, and considers them her peculiar share'?-I concur with
that entirely.
7539. Do you know whether it is the practice of the district that the
woman generally has a separate account for the butter and eggs?-
That is the case, so far as I know.
7540. Does she take the proceeds of the eggs and butter?-Yes. I
sometimes met a little girl going along to the shop with some eggs,
and she would tell me that she was going to the shop with them. I
would meet her again coming back, and among other things she
would have a little bag with her in which there would be some
hard biscuits and tea. That would be what she was carrying back
in exchange for the eggs.
7541. But these goods would go into the common stock for the
maintenance of the family?-Yes; but I am told by the people that
these articles do not form part of the husband's account.
7542. Still it does not make any separation between the interests of
the husband and wife if the proceeds of the butter and eggs go for
the maintenance of the family, just as the husband's earnings
do?-But there is a separation, and I will give an illustration of it.
Suppose a husband had to go to church with a dirty shirt, and he
would say to his wife, 'You might have had a clean shirt for me
to-day, my dear, to go to church with;' and she would reply, 'My
butter and my eggs were not sufficient to get soap and soda; and
therefore you must go to church with the shirt you have on,' that
shows a separate interest between them. I give that, not as an
actual case, but as a supposition which, sufficiently answers your
question, and I think it goes to show a separate interest.
7543. Is there any other point to which you refer?-Yes. Mr.
Smith says, in his evidence, that barter is hurtful to the
independence of the people very much; with that I entirely
agree. He says again, 'It destroys the independence of the
people very much; they get careless.' I entirely agree with that
else and can give illustrations of it. The next question is 'Does it
encourage extravagance?-I should think it does, very much; they
don't know the value of money.' There never was greater truth
written than that, and Mr. Smith deserves great credit for stating it.
7544. Can you give me any illustration of that?-I know a case
where a poor man and his family came in and took possession of
from £70 to £90-I don't know the exact sum by the death of a
brother. They got a book in the shop; the money never came into
their hands at all, but so long as it lasted the book ran on, and I
don't believe it was twelve months when the whole was exhausted,
and they were in misery. That showed that they did not know the
value of money. I will give another illustration which is worse
than that. Another man came into possession of £230 or by the
death of a relative in England. He got the money into his hands,
and came to consult me as to what he should do with it. I said,
'When you have got so much money, you should lay it out and get
5 per cent. for it; and if you get that, then the interest will pay the
rent of your land, and with your own labour and that of your wife
and daughters, you may keep the amount all the days of your life,
and you can hand down the £230 to your children.' He said, 'I am
determined to do everything you have advised, and that money
shall go down to my children, so far as I am concerned.' Twelve
months had not passed over when that man had to be rouped out,
and left the neighbourhood without any means; which proves what
Mr. Smith said, that they don't know the value of money.
7545. How did that man spend it?-I don't know, but it was all
gone.
7546. Do you find that the women dress more expensively here
than they do in other places?-I think very much more so.
7547. Do you think that a woman who knits, and who has a
separate account of her own in the women's book, is induced to
spend more of her earnings on dress than she would otherwise
do?-Yes; arising from the fact that, to a great extent at least,
they can only get clothing for their knitting.
7548. It is quite true that in Lerwick only soft [Page 183] goods
are given for knitting; but in this district there is a difference, and
provisions are also given in exchange for it?-There may be a
little provisions given but I can assure you, from my knowledge of
the people, that that is not a general thing. It is in cottons and soft
goods generally that the hosiery is paid for.
7549. But do the women dress more expensively than they need to
do?-I think so; and they are influenced to do that by the way in
which the system is carried on. There are things kept in the shops
to catch their fancy, and when they take their knitting in they are
shown some dresses, and they fix upon one. They have already
told you that they get no money; and they have told me that they
can get no money although they were to ask for it. Now, a girl in
the south may dress very well, and servants there do dress very
respectably; but I know servants in the south who don't make
more money in the course of a year than a woman makes here by
knitting, and yet they have considerable sums the bank, while that
is not the case here.
7550. You say the women go into the shops, and are induced to
buy by having goods exposed to them in that way: how do you
know that?-I know it by them telling me how they get them, both
here and at Lerwick.
7551. Have you asked them how they happened to have so many
fine dresses?-I asked a man, who had a very industrious family of
daughters, where they got this fine thing and the next fine thing,
and he told me.
7552. You are now speaking of a particular case?-Yes. He said
they are very industrious, and when they have got a certain
quantity of work done they go to Lerwick with it; and they go
into this shop and see this fine thing, and go into the next shop
and see the next fine thing. I said, 'Do they get any money?' and
he said, 'Not one single farthing.' When I asked him why, he said:
'I don't know; but they want it, and I have to give them money to
take them into Lerwick.'
7553. You were speaking of a system of terrorism which prevails,
or is alleged to prevail, here: if that terrorism exists, how do you
account for witnesses coming forward and speaking at all?-But
what have they said?
7554. We had two or three men who were not cited?-I saw one
man here who was not by any means a representative of the
ordinary tenants. He was not a representative of the class among
whom he lives.
7555. Have you seen many fishermen here during the last day or
two?-Not very many.
7556. I have been a little at it loss myself to know why fewer
people have appeared here than at other places with even less
population. Can you give me any explanation of it?-They told
me beforehand that they dursn't come, and that they would not
come; and I will give you an illustration. I went into the house of
a man who had been complaining to me about his debts at the
shops, and about the misery he was in; and when I got the notice to
see what witnesses would come forward and give evidence, I said
to myself, 'This man who has complained so much to me will
surely come forward.' I went to him, and in presence of his family
I asked whether he would give evidence before you. I did not tell
him to do so, but said, 'If you are willing now to state your
grievances, you have an opportunity of doing so.' The man stood
up and trembled, and said, ''Mr. Sutherland, it is the truth that you
have said! It is the truth that we are crushed; but I am in such a
position with the merchant that I dare not do it.' I went to another
man, and said, 'You have been crying about your miseries: will
you come forward and state them now?' He said, 'Yes, I will
come forward and state them.' I said, 'You are not in debt, are
you?'-'Yes, I am in debt.' 'How much are you in debt?' 'I am in
debt £13 down at the shop;' and this man had not thirteen placks.
Then, to show that what Mr. Smith said about the system
destroying their idea of the value of money was true, I turned to
the wife and said, 'Have you £13 of debt?-and she said, 'Is that
all?-that's nothing.' I mention that to show the woman's
appreciation of the value of debt.
7557. Is that the way in which you account for the small
attendance on this occasion on the part of the fishermen, and
their apparent want of interest in it?-Yes; I attribute it to that
wholly and to nothing else.
7558. I must say that although the meeting here has been intimated
throughout the parish, yet I believe it has been somewhat less
extensively intimated, in consequence of the distance of the place
from Lerwick, than it would otherwise have been. Is not that
sufficient to account for the absence of the men?-No; there have
been people here from North Roe, and from Stenness, and from
Ollaberry.
7559. But these were cited?-They may have been, but all the
people knew about it quite well. Again, I sent for three or four
parties who lived not two miles from the schoolhouse, and had
them over with me, and said, 'You have complained bitterly about
your condition before: will you come now and give information
about it?' They said, 'We will do it;' but two or three days
afterwards one of them came back and said he would not do it,
as it would just make their case worse.
7560. I believe you have taken a great interest in this matter
yourself?-I have only taken an interest in it for the welfare of the
poor people of this country.
7561. But you have long held strong opinions as to the distress
prevailing in Shetland?-I have; and when an opportunity was
given to me, I have always condemned the system which existed.
7562. When you received the circular from me, which was sent to
all the merchants and clergymen throughout the country, you
replied that you were willing to come forward as a witness, and
you sent me a list of witnesses?-I did.
7563. Since then you have been taking some trouble in the matter,
and have been speaking to people about coming forward and
giving evidence?-Yes; and I did everything I could to get them to
come forward. All I wanted was to get them to come here and tell
the truth, whatever it might be. If you will allow me will give
another illustration of the terrorism which exists. If I buy corn or
straw from any person in this neighbourhood for my horse or my
cows, I would only get it delivered to me in the dark, because the
people are afraid the merchants would know about it. I always get
it in the dark, and I pay down the money for it at once.
7564. Do you swear that you never got corn delivered to you
except in the dark which you have purchased for your horse and
cows?-I have sworn already to the fact. There is no person in
Hillswick who will sell corn and bring it to me except in the dark.
If the people live at a distance, then it is different. There is a man
who lives outside the dyke at Hillswick, Harry Gilbertson, who has
a little straw, and he will sometimes bring some of it to me, but he
is not one of the persons to whom I am referring. It is those living
within the dyke of Hillswick who would not bring corn to me
except in the dark.
7565. Are your dealings in corn numerous?-Not very numerous;
but some years there is a good deal of it.
7566. Have you to buy the corn you require in small quantities?-I
cannot get it except in small quantities; just what the people can
spare to me.
7567. You have given me in private the name of one party who
sold corn to you and delivered it in the dark?-Yes; and there are
many others.
7568. Do you deal, or have you dealt, with any of the shops in this
neighbourhood?-For many years I have not dealt with any of
them, except when I happened to be out of goods. I get my goods
twice a-year from the south, but when I am out of any particular
article I purchase it here.
7569. Is it a common practice with the families of clergymen and
others in the same position in Shetland to get their supplies from
the south?-So far as I know, it is.
[Page 184]
7570. Why is that done?-I cannot afford to buy articles here; they
are too dear for me. My stipend would not afford to pay for them.
7571. Do you know if the same reason operates in the case of your
fellow-clergymen?-I don't know, but they have often spoken
about it. In the first place, I hold the goods to be, as might be
expected, inferior in quality, to the goods I would like. I don't
blame the merchants for not having goods of better quality,
because their customers perhaps would not be in the way of buying
them; but I could not afford to buy from the merchants here in
consequence of the tremendous percentage which they charge
upon their goods.
7572. In speaking of the apprehension which exists in the district, I
understand you to refer merely to the state of mind of the people
with whom you have come in contact. You don't know of
anything on the part of the merchants which justifies that
apprehension?-I don't want to go into that. I only say that
that feeling is produced among the people by the state of their
accounts, and by the fact that they are in debt to the merchant. I
don't know that the merchant does anything to produce it. I am
not accusing him at all.
7573. You are not accusing him of actively bringing about that
state of terror?-No; I only say it is the system which brings it
about. I don't refer to any one merchant more than another; it is
the system I object to.
7574. Are you aware whether legal proceedings are frequent in
cases where people are in debt to the merchants?-I have known
several cases of that kind.
7575. Are they frequent in proportion to the indebtedness of the
people?-I don't think that, taking the whole accounts that are due
they are so frequent or half so frequent as they would require to be,
in order to correct this evil.
7576. You think that, if decree was taken oftener against people
who are in debt, the thing would be little mended?-I think it
would tend that way; at least it would be the beginning of the end
of it.
7577. Do you think the merchants may be too tender to their
customers?-No doubt of it, and that for the purposes which are
explained by the gentlemen whose evidence I agree with. I
condemn the system altogether, apart from the men who carry it
on. I don't care who the men are; I defy men to be any better than
what I find around me, but the system would make them what they
are on both sides.
7578. Have you ever had accounts yourself with any of the
merchants here?-Not for many years. I might have small
accounts for things which had been got from the shop when I
was in the south; but, during the first and second years when I
was here, I had large accounts to pay, because I had everything
to buy from them, and I did not know about how things were
conducted in this part of the country.
7579. With reference to parties who are in debt to the merchants,
we had a witness yesterday who stated that he had been sued for a
debt: had you any intercourse with that man in the way of advising
him with regard to the conduct of his case?-None whatever. He
was summoned, and the proceedings were going on before ever I
heard of it. He and another person came to me, but I refused to
give them any advice, and told them to go and get a lawyer to
defend themselves. It was very natural for them, in their
circumstances, to come and consult the clergyman, and ask
him what they should do, but I refused to interfere.
7580. Have you had any dealings with men with regard to
payments from the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society, or any
society of that kind?-I know something about that. In one
case, I remember, there was a considerable loss at sea; more
than one boat was wrecked, and a great many men perished,
and there was a great deal of sympathy excited in the south.
7581. When was that?-It was a good many years ago-about the
time I came here, or a little after. A great deal of sympathy was
excited in the south, as is generally the case, and a considerable
amount of money was collected for the widows and orphans, and
handed over to the merchant who was principally concerned in the
fishery. One of the widows lived beside a minister to whom she
came and complained about the way in which the money was dealt
with. The people knew the amount which had been collected, and
her share was £6 odds. The minister wrote to the merchant whose
boats had been lost, saying that the widow was dying for want, and
asking whether he would send her her share of the money that had
been collected I believe the answer he got back from the merchant
was, 'The first time you come near this, come in and I shall show
you the £6 odds marked to her late husband's credit.' Is it for that
purpose that charity is given in the south?
7582. Do you think that was a misappropriation the money, or
was it not a legal right of the merchant that he should have his
debt paid?-That, I suppose would depend upon the purpose for
which the subscription was made. The money was collected by
the benevolent in the south for the purpose of aiding the widows
and children of the men who had been lost, and not to be paid in
liquidation of the merchant's account due by the dead husband.
7583. That might raise a nice legal question?-It might; but I want
this to go out to the world, so that the eyes of the people in the
south may be opened to how their charity is applied: I can give
more cases the same kind.
7584. That was not a case where the money came from the
Shipwrecked Mariners' Society?-No; it was a private
subscription. I knew another case where several boats were
lost, and where very great sympathy, as in the first case, was
excited, and a considerable sum of money was collected. As it
happens, the money fell into the hands of the merchant who had
owned the boats. It was distributed according to the judgment of
the merchant and of the clergyman, but the clergyman was never
consulted about the distribution or allocation of a single penny,
and, so far as he was ever able to find out., it was kept in the shop.
That is case which I know about, because I was the clergyman.
7585. How long ago was that?-I have noted it being in 1849. My
own contribution to the fund was one guinea; and I ask, is it for
this that the benevolent are to give their contributions for
Shetland?
7586. Perhaps the benevolent might be of opinion that the fairest
way of doing would be to pay the debts of the deceased, if the
widows and children were liable for them?-I am not speaking of
the legality of the thing, or how the case might stand in law, but I
am speaking of the purpose for which I gave my contribution of
one guinea; and I know that I would not have given one farthing
for such a purpose as that money was applied to.
7587. A subscription of that kind might be regarded as an
alimentary debt, not attachable by creditors?-That is my
opinion. Another case happened, in which a contribution was
made in favour of a very old man, to whose house an accident had
happened. £3, 10s. was contributed for that man, to which I gave
10s.; and I was always hearing that that sum had not been applied
in the way in which I at least had intended that it should be; but in
case they might have been telling me what was not true, I went to
the man in order to be sure that anything I might state here was
quite correct.
7588. How long was that after the subscription had been
collected?-It is perhaps two or three years since it was collected,
but it is only a week ago since I went to the man.
7589. Did you go to him with a view to this inquiry?-It was after
I got the notice that the meetings were to be held that I went to
him. I went in to the man and said, 'John, did you ever get any of
that money?'-He stood up and said, 'I went and said that I was
starving and had nothing to eat, and I got one lispund of meal and
two ounces of tea, and that is all the reckoning I ever got for it.'
7590. Who collected the money in that case?-My money was
paid to the merchant at Hillswick.
[Page 185]
7591. Do you mean Mr. Anderson?-It was given over to that
establishment, I know. I said, 'Is that all you have got, John?'
'Yes.' 'And where did the money go?' 'The money went to the
credit of my son-in-law, Andrew Thomason.'
7592. Was Andrew Thomason supporting the old man at that
time?-The old man is on the Parochial Board now; but
Thomason himself had been in the utmost misery for at least a
couple of years.
7593. Did you say anything to the son-in-law about that?-He was
the first person I met when I went to see the old man; and when I
met him, I said, 'What was done with the £3, 10s.?' or whatever
was the amount. He said he could not say. I said, 'Did John get
the money?' He replied, 'Oh, yes; surely he did.' I said, 'Will you
swear that?' and he said, 'Oh, swearing is a different thing.' I then
told him I must see John; but he said, 'You cannot see him; he is
in such a state without clothes that he is not fit to be seen,' and he
ran off to John; but I was as able to run as he was, and I was in and
had a hold of John's hand before the son-in-law could get a hold of
him. It was the wife of that man Thomason who, as I mentioned,
seized me by the arm, and said, 'Oh, sir, will that give offence to
the merchant.'
7594. Where do these persons live?-At Hillswick.
7595. Is the old man able to come here to be examined?-He is 85
years of age, and I don't believe he would be able.
7596. Is there anything else you wish to say?-I have noted a case
in connection with the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society which I
may be allowed to give. A man here had a boat which was either
wrecked or broken, or so destroyed as to be useless. He had paid
into the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society for three years, and he
applied to the agent here to get his proportion of what was to be
given for the boat. The man's statement to me was, that for a
while he asked whether he had anything to get from the Society,
either to procure a new boat or to repair the old one. He was told
that he had 30s. to get; but the merchant, who was also the agent,
said to him, 'I have put it to the credit of your account.' I want to
make that statement in order that it may go forth to the world
whether the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society choose to allow their
payments to go in liquidation of such debts. That may be the case,
but I hold a strong opinion that the Society meant to do no such
thing.
7597. It has been explained that such a payment of the
Shipwrecked Mariners' Society has been put to the man's
account, but that it was only done in a case where the account
was due for the boat which had been lost. Is it not quite a natural
thing that the merchant, in the case that is supposed, might very
fairly put the money to the account of the boat which had been
lost, and then supply it new boat upon credit in the same way as he
had supplied the old one?-But the man has no boat. What I mean
by giving this evidence is, in order that the Shipwrecked Mariners'
Society may understand how the money which they pay is applied
by their agents here. If they think it is it right appropriation of the
money, then, of course, I have no fault to find with it.
7598. Do you know whether there is any rule of the Society
prohibiting such a use of the money?-I don't know; but if it was
a right transaction, then it is quite right that it should be known.
7599. Did you hear the evidence given by Mr. Greig this
morning?-I did.
7600. He said something about marking the horns of cattle for a
debt: are you acquainted with the existence of such it practice?-I
am. I have seen the cattle driven down to a place in my own
neighbourhood, and kept there for a night and marked.
7601. Do you think there is any objection to that practice? Is
there any reason why a man should not secure his debt by taking
possession of the cattle of his debtor?-I hold that there ought to
be no such seizure, and no such clandestine way of securing a
man's debt. There are processes of law open to a man for securing
his debt, if he chooses to avail himself of them.
7602. But the thing is done with the consent of the debtor?-That
may be said, but my opinion is, that the debtor is not in a position
to refuse; and in cases where it is done, it is done not only for the
purpose of securing the man himself, but to keep the cattle from
falling into the hands of another man to whom a debt is due.
7603. Are you speaking of cases which you know?-Yes.
Suppose I have cattle, and I am due you an account, and you
give me provisions at your shop, perhaps another man, to whom
I am also in debt, won't be so liberal, and I will tell you to come
and mark my cattle and let the other man whistle. That is the way
in which it is done. Now, such a practice is most immoral in its
effects.
7604. In what way?-Because this man cheats the other one. I
should have made a fair failure, and then both men would have got
a share of the balance I could pay.
7605. Do you know whether the price credited to the debtor in
such a case is generally a fair price?-I have no means of knowing
that.
7606. Is the price ascertained by a public sale?-It may be in some
cases, but I know in many cases it is not.
7607. Do you think that, for the introduction of ready-money
system, a multiplication of banks would be necessary?-I don't
think it.
7608. Does not the fact that banks only exist in Lerwick act as a
bar to the introduction of such a system?-No; I think that
difficulty could easily be met. For instance, the Union Bank at
Lerwick had their principal institution at the top of the town; but
when opposition came, they opened small shop in the principal
street in Lerwick, and they have now two offices there, a small one
and a large one. Now, if the credit system were put an end to, for
the sake of both parties, both merchants and people, there would
soon be a small bank opened at Hillswick, if it should be nowhere
else.
7609. How do people do with regard to banking just now?-The
banking is very easily conducted, so far as I know, because the
people have little money in their hands.
7610. Don't you know that many fishermen have large accounts in
the bank in Lerwick already?-I know that some of the fishermen
have a little there; but I know that the large accounts are not in the
banks. I know from their statements where they get 5 per cent. for
their money, and that is not from the bank.
7611. Where do they get that?-I won't mention any particular
place, but they get it from the merchants in Shetland.
7612. Are there many men who are in a position have accounts of
that kind with the merchants?-Several of them of the better class
have told me about that themselves.
7613. Are these the one-fourth or one-third of the whole whom
you mentioned, or a part of them?-They don't make one-fourth
of the whole. The parties who could have such accounts would
not perhaps come to one-sixth of the whole. Of course, I am
speaking generally when I give that proportion.
7614. Do you mean that it is only one-sixth of the one-third who
are well-doing, that have such accounts?-I should say it would
not be more than one-sixth of the one-third who had them.
7615. Are there many public-houses in your parish?-No; properly
speaking, there are no public-houses at all. There are shops where
spirits are sold, but there is no public-house. At Hillswick, for
instance, there is a shop with a back-shop to which the men go
round and get whisky.
7616. But not to be consumed on the premises?-I never was
there; but I understand the men do drink in that back place. I
know that from their own statements to me.
7617. Does each merchant who keeps a shop and cures fish, have a
grocer's licence?-No; I think there are licences in North Roe and
Ollaberry as well as here. I may give a statement with regard to
whisky [Page 186] since it has been mentioned. I hold in my hand
the account of a fisherman for goods supplied to him at the shop;
and I find that, during the six months over which it extends, the
value of the whisky supplied was 14s. 10d. The way in which it
came into my hands was this: A gentleman in the south was
responsible for the account, and when it was sent to him, he was
so horrified about it that he sent it from Edinburgh to me to inquire
into, and I saw the people.
7618. How long was that since?-I think it is about three years
ago. I sent the account to a merchant in the south to analyze it, so
that I might report to the gentleman. I got back an analysis of it,
with this written upon it: 'This account cannot be made payable in
any court of law;' and the grounds for that opinion were stated to
be, that there had been nothing weighed and nothing measured in
the account, and they held that no account could be made payable
in law that was neither measured nor weighed.
7619. Have you a copy of that account?-No; but I can give the
name of the party in Edinburgh who got it. What I mention it for,
is to show that there was 14s. 10d. charged for <aqua> in six
months in various small sums. There was also a large sum paid
in cash; and I was so struck with that, as the man was not married,
that I went to another person who was acquainted with the manner
in which business was carried on in Shetland, and asked him what
was meant by so much cash being paid. He said, 'Oh, that is
money which is borrowed in the one shop and drunk in the other.'
That is the explanation I got, whether it was true or not.
7620. But that was the explanation of a third party who had no
concern with the account?-Yes. When I sent the document to the
gentleman in Edinburgh, he said he would pay that amount, but he
would pay no more; and after that he sent me £5 a-year, from
which I make payments to the man every month.
7621. In this account there is £1, 14s. 10d. and £1, 14s. 2d. in
cash which you say was also spent in whisky?-I was only told
about that by a party who said he knew about the same thing
having been done. In this account there is 2s. 6d. entered for
sweeties, verifying what was said in some of the evidence, that
sweeties were given to make up the balance. With regard to
whisky, I may explain that I had some whisky tested by a qualified
party, which I believe was sold in the shops at 9d. per gill. The
profit upon that, on being tested, was found to be 55 per cent. I
also had tea sent and tested, for which the people had paid 3s. per
pound, and the proper judge, to whom I sent it, sent me word that
it was exactly 2s. tea, there being 50 per cent. of profit charged
upon it.
7622. Who tested the tea?-A tea merchant in Aberdeen.
7623. Who tested the whisky?-A spirit-dealer also in Aberdeen.
I sent these articles to be tested in order to show the enormous
prices which are charged by these merchants. I have no interest in
the matter myself, except that my poor parishioners should not pay
more than they ought to pay, and also that an end might be put to a
system which is injurious both to merchants and people.
7624. What remedy would you propose for the existing state of
matters, and for the evils which are alleged to exist?-My remedy
would be to declare the present truck system to be penal.
7625. What would you desire to be penal?-The truck system.
7626. But the truck system, properly so called, is penal; and the
question in this inquiry is, whether other things are to be included
within the operation of the Acts which apply to the truck
system?-Well, I mean that this system of carrying on business
in Shetland should be declared to be penal.
7627. Do you mean that you would make it penal to give long
credit for shop goods?-I would make it penal to give any credit at
all, and I would admit either party to give evidence against the
other party for infringement of that statute, and would be to make
all debts so incurred irrecoverable by any process of law. These
three things are what I think would form a remedy for the present
state of matters. At the same time, I am just as convinced that
the merchant ought to live, and must live, and have a reasonable
profit, as I am that the people should not pay more for their articles
than they are worth.