6682. Do you purchase a quantity of that also?-Yes.
6683. Is it also paid for in goods?-No; it is paid for in cash if
required.
6684. But at a cash price?-Yes.
6685. In this case [showing] it was entered in the book?-Yes.
6686. Was that because the party wanted goods, or was there any
particular reason for it?-She was not sure when she gave the
tweed, whether she might require the whole of it in goods. She
wanted meal, I think, and some other goods.
6687. Are your dealings in cloth with the people the country very
extensive?-I buy a good deal of it occasionally, when the trade is
brisk.
6688. Is it paid for regularly in cash?-Yes.
6689. Do your purchases of it not appear in this book?-There
may be some of them there.
6690. But are the majority of your purchases of that sort of cloth
entered here?-Possibly they may appear in the men's ledger more
frequently, unless when the cloth is bought over the counter.
6691. If it is paid for in cash, why does it appear in any ledger?-
What is paid for cash does not appear in any ledger.
6692. Does it not appear in your day-book?-No, it does not enter
our day-book. We just buy it the same as we buy any hosiery. For
instance, if a girl brings it in, she may require the value of it in
goods; that is a separate transaction, finished at once, and there is
no more trace of it.
6693. Is the cloth almost all of the same quality?-It is all very
much the same.
6694. Do you ticket each web at the time when you take it in?-
Yes.
6695. Then I understand you to say, that the great bulk of your
dealings in cloth are cash transactions?-Yes, I think the bulk of
them, or they are settled for at the time in goods.
6696. Is tea a very usual article for the knitters to take out their
payments in?-I think it is. They often take tea.
6697. Have you known any cases in which the goods or tea so
obtained for hosiery were sold or disposed of for cash?-I think I
have not.
6698. It is probably not so necessary for them to do so when they
can get provisions for their hosiery, as when they are only paid in
soft goods?-Perhaps not; but it is not very likely I would learn
that that was done, even if it was the case.
6699. When a woman has sold you some hosiery goods or cloth,
and does not want goods in exchange to the full value at the time,
is it the practice in your shop to issue any line or acknowledgment
for the balance?-I believe that is done occasionally.
6700. Is the line in the form of an order to credit the bearer with so
much in goods?-Yes.
6701. Are these lines or vouchers generally brought back by the
party to whom they were given?-I think so.
6702. Are they ever brought back by another?-I think not;
because we know all the people, and they could not impose on
us in that way.
6703. But if the party to whom the line was issued had handed
it over for a consideration to another party, that would be no
imposition upon you?-No; but still we would know whether it
was done or not, that is to say, we would suspect something amiss.
If it was presented by another person than one of the woman's own
family, we would naturally suppose there was something
suspicious about it.
6704. Do these lines bear to be payable to any particular person?-
Yes; we always mention in them the name of the person who has
sold us the goods. However, it is perhaps right to state that that is
not very much practised in our shop.
6705. I think you said there were not many little shops in this
district?-There are a few. Arthur Harrison has a shop within two
miles of me; Laurence Smith has a shop within three miles; and
Jack Anderson has a shop within five miles to the westward.
6706. Are all these on the Busta estate?-Yes. Jack Anderson
rents a booth belonging to Ollaberry.
6707. Is there any difficulty or any obstruction placed in the way
of small shopkeepers getting premises and carrying on their
business in this district?-There seems not to have been any lately.
When I took a lease of Hillswick, I thought I had an understanding
that Mr. Cheyne was not to put up other places of business in the
district, but there was no sort of agreement about it and that
understanding has not been acted upon.
6708. Do you refer to shops or fish-curing establishments?-Not
fish-curing establishments; there is no restriction upon them.
6709. Any person may set up a business of that sort?-I think so.
6710. You have been present and heard the whole of the evidence
that has been given to-day: is there any part of it with regard to
which you wish to make any statement or contradiction?-There is
nothing that I am aware of.
6711. Are you an agent for the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society?-I
am.
6712. Do most of your fishermen subscribe to that society?-A
good many of them do.
6713. Is their annual subscription debited to them in their
account?-Yes, very frequently.
6714. When they have anything to get from the society, how is that
payment settled with them?-That I daresay depends very much
upon their own wishes.
6715. Does it depend to any extent on the fact, whether or not they
are indebted to you at the time?-I don't think it does generally.
6716. But it may sometimes?-It may sometimes.
6717. That is to say, supposing a man who loses his boat has a sum
to receive in cash from the society, which passes through your
hands, it may be written down to square off your account?-No. It
may be entered to his credit in the account; but I think, if the
matter was searched into, it would be found that in that case it was
to square off for some boat he had got before, and which he had
not paid for.
6718. And not his ordinary shop account?-No.
6719. Therefore, you say that you would retain the money if he
was in debt to you for a boat?-Yes.
6720. But you would not retain it if he was only in debt to you for
shop goods?-I think not.
6721. What is your reason for making that distinction?-I think it
is nothing but simple justice to myself. It would certainly be very
unreasonable for a man to get remuneration for a boat from the
Shipwrecked Fishermen's Society while the same boat was
standing unpaid for in my books.
6722. Would the same principle not apply to the case of an
account which a man owed to you?-No doubt the man would be
entitled to pay me that account; but I would certainly consider it a
great hardship if I had to pay that money over to a man who had an
account standing due in my books for the very boat for the loss of
which the money was given.
6723. Have you ever had any dispute with the fishermen about the
payment of that money, or any complaints that it was not settled
for in cash?-I don't think I have, within my recollection. I think
there was one man who said something about it at one time; but
after I had showed to him what I considered to be the justice of the
matter, I fancied he was satisfied, and never heard any more about
it.
6724. What is the other book you have brought with you?-It is a
boat-book, merely for entries relating to the boats.
6725. How are the boat-builders paid? Do they run accounts with
you in the same way as the fishermen?-I think so.
6726. Are they paid by weekly wages?-No; they are paid so
much for building a boat.
6727. What does their contract generally amount to?-We furnish
the wood, and merely pay them for [Page 163] their work. I think
we generally pay £3 for the work on a six-oared boat.
6728. When you enter into a contract for the building of a boat,
does the man open an account, or is it generally the case that he
has an account already running?-The builder I employ generally
has an account running.
6729. Are his family and himself supplied with goods from your
shop from time to time?-Only occasionally. I think the boats are
paid for mostly in cash. Probably he would get a few pounds from
me if he was requiring them, and then he would come and build
boats for me afterwards.
6730. Are the boat-builders a class of men by themselves, who
work at nothing else?-Yes.
6731. Do they travel about the country?-Yes.
6732. Are they not employed by you all the year round?-No.
6733. Then, they generally get an advance of money from you
before they begin work for you?-I don't say generally, but I say
the particular builder I employ has done that sometimes.
6734. So that, when his boat is finished, he has generally nothing
to get?-No; he has something to get still, because he is building
more than one at a time.
6735. But during the time he is building them, he has an account at
your shop for necessaries to his family?-Yes.
6736. What is the other book you have there?-It is a ledger for
the purpose of entering anything into-goods supplied to a family.
6737. Are these the families of your fishermen?-Yes; or it may
be others that we intend to have short accounts.
6738. But these accounts are only for goods supplied: there is
nothing entered that is due to them?-No.
6739. The other side of the account is not in this book at all?-No.
6740. And the fishermen's ledger is quite different?-Yes.
6741. It is a large book?-Yes.
6742. Is there a separate ledger for beach boys and men employed
in fish-curing?-Yes.
6743. Is there also a separate ledger for the kelp women?-No;
their accounts are entered in the women's book unless they are
paid right off.
6744. Show me the account of one of these kelp women in the
women's book: take Mrs. Hughson?-I don't think she ever had
anything to get, and therefore we would not enter her name in the
book.
6745. Take Maria Sandison, who was spoken of today?-I think
her account was kept on a slip of paper or in a small book, until
they got it squared off, and then it was entered.
6746. I see there is nothing about kelp in her account?-No, I
fancy it was just paid off at the time.
6747. Is there anything else you wish to say?-It has been asserted
that the fish-curers paid no cash, and that scarcely a coin passed
between the curer and the fisherman. That was said before the
Truck Commissioners in Edinburgh. Now, I would wish to show
what amount of cash I have paid since I began to settle this year. I
think the cash I paid during the settling time in November and
December last amounted to £1006.
6748. What was it in previous years?-I cannot tell for every year;
but I know that for the whole year, in 1866, I paid £1811 in cash,
and in 1870 I paid £2040. I think the highest I paid to one man
this season was £24, 7s. 9d. in cash at settlement.
6749. Was that much higher than the average?-It must have been
higher. Perhaps I may be allowed to say also, that I think the great
bar to improvement in Shetland is the want of leases. In my
opinion, a Land Bill for Shetland-an Act somewhat resembling
the Irish Land Bill-would be very useful, by which all
improvements could be held to belong to the tenant instead of to
the proprietor; because as soon as a tenant here begins to improve
his farm, he is very likely to have his rent raised upon him.
6750. Have you known cases in which the rent has been raised
upon an improving tenant?-Yes. I am not prepared just now to
give names, but I think I have met with several cases of that kind.
6751. What is the bar to the introduction of a system of leases in
Shetland, which, you say, would greatly improve the country?-
There seems to be an unwillingness on the part of the proprietors
to give lease. I have known several parties who have asked for
leases and have not got them.
6752. Has the unwillingness of the proprietors to give leases
anything to do with the fishing?-I don't think it.
6753. On some properties are not yearly tenants under an
obligation to fish, which might be interfered with, or which might
not be so easily enforceable, there were leases?-That shows the
necessity granting leases.
6754. But is not the objection of proprietors to grant leases due to
some extent to the fact, that it would be less easy to enforce the
obligation to fish if leases existed?-Perhaps it is, but even on
those estates where there is no such obligation leases are not
granted.
6755. Is there a general desire on the part of fishermen-farmers in
Shetland to have leases?-I cannot say that exactly. I think there
is such desire in many cases, but then they fear that their rent
would be raised if a lease were granted.
6756. Have there been any cases of leases being granted or offered
in which ground has been given for that apprehension?-I think
so, although I could not name them just now.
6757. Have there been any attempts made recently in Shetland to
introduce leases on a larger scale than they at present exist?-
Not within my knowledge. With regard to the Ollaberry property,
I find there are only 33 out of 71 tenants who fish either to
Anderson & Co. or to me.
6758. Are you aware whether the other 38 tenants fish at all?-
There are some of them who do not fish, but there are others of
them who do, and who are ling fishers. The man Blance who was
examined goes to Faroe and I think another man too.
6759. Do many of them go to Faroe?-No; not many.
6760. They are not obliged to engage with any particular person at
the Faroe fishing?-No.
6761. In the evidence to which you have referred as having been
given in Edinburgh, there is a statement that leases were offered
on a large estate in Delting or in Yell, but that the bulk of the
tenants would not accept of them: do you know the reason of
that?-Because, I suspect, they were suspicious of the factor.
6762. The statement was, 'Ten years was mentioned as the
minimum length of the lease, because the people were frightened
to take leases; but when any one came and asked for a longer
lease, I gave it to him. No one would take a longer lease than
fourteen years, and I have given none longer than fourteen.' Can
you suggest any other reason than that you have named for the
tenants declining leases on these estates?-I think it must have
been because under the leases, all improvements were to be held
to belong to the landlord.
6763. But they belong to the landlord at present?-True; but what
I mean is, that that is the great bar to improvements in Shetland.
6764. Do you think it is possible for a man to improve his land
much who is employed for four or five months in the year
fishing?-I think it is. His time in winter is almost thrown away
at present; but if he had the security of getting the value of his
labour at the end of his lease or on removing, I think he would
work actively and improve his land. There are many, I know, who
have regretted that they could not spend their time in that way.
6765. Is it not possible for a tenant who wants to improve his land
to make some contract with his landlord on the subject?-I have
never been aware of any case where that has been done.
6766. Have you the management of the Ollaberry estate in your
own hands?-Yes.
6767. Have you made any effort to induce the people [Page
164] there to take leases, or offered them compensation for
improvements?-I have not offered them compensation. I could
not do that; but I have told them that the understanding on which
they held their lands was this-that if they made improvements,
either in cultivating the land, keeping up their fences, or repairing
their houses, their rents would not be raised during my lease.
6768. You have only a lease of Ollaberry?-Yes, for nineteen
years.
6769. Has your intimation to the tenants, that their rents would not
be raised if they improved their holdings, had a beneficial
effect?-I think it has in some cases; that is to say, they have kept
up their fences very well, and I know some parties who have added
to their cultivated ground.
6770. Do you think that has been done to a greater extent than
would have been the case if you had held out no such inducement
to them?-I would fancy so.
6771. Is there any other suggestion or statement you wish to
make?-I think not.
Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, PETER PETERSON,
examined.
6772. Are you a fisherman at Hillswick?-Not present. I am at
Hillyar now. I live at Hillswick, but I am not fishing there.
6773. Have you got any land?-Yes; a small piece in Hillswick
from Mr. Gifford.
6774. For whom do you fish?-For Mr. Laurence Smith at Hillyar
at present.
6775. Is he a large curer?-No; he has only two boats fishing for
him. I have been fishing for him two years now.
6776. For whom did you fish before?-For Mr. Anderson.
6777. Why did you leave off fishing for him?-I got into debt, and
was refused supplies from him; and, as I could not do without
supplies for my family, I went to another man.
6778. Why would you not pay your debt to Mr. Anderson?-I did
not make a sufficient fishing to pay it, and I had no great means to
work on either: I had no boat.
6779. What was the amount of your debt?-£17, 9s. 5d.
6780. And when it came to that amount, he refused you
supplies?-Yes.
6781. At what time of the year was that?-In the summer time,
during the fishing season.
6782. Did you settle with him at the end of that season?-Yes.
6783. Did you clear off what was due by you at that settlement, or
was there still something due to Mr. Anderson?-£17, 9s. 5d. was
the debt I left when I went away from him. I continued to fish the
season out, and left him when the season was done.
6784. But you made a settlement at the end of the season?-Yes.
6785. What was the result of that settlement?-He made out that I
was due him £17, 9s. 5d, and he summoned me for it.
6786. Did you ask him how much was due at the time when he
stopped the supplies?-No.
6787. Then, the sum you have mentioned was due after he had
allowed you credit for all the fish of that season?-Yes.
6788. So that, at the time when he stopped the supplies, there
would be a larger sum than that due by you?-There may have
been.
6789. Were you asked to engage to fish to him after that?-No.
6790. What was his reason for summoning you?-I don't know. I
was not asked to fish to him again, so that I had to look out for
myself some other way, and I went to Smith and got supplies from
him.
6791. Was there a decree against you in the action in which Mr
Anderson summoned you?-No, I have not got any yet.
6792. Was the case not decided against you?-I don't think it. At
least I left it unsettled in the hands of Mr. Spence, the lawyer,
when I left the town.
6793. Is the case not at an end yet?-I don't know. Mr. Spence
was to give me notice but I have got none yet.
6794. What was the nature of your defence in that case?-I was
not able to pay, and therefore I was forced to appear in Lerwick
before the court. Very likely, if I had been in a good boat the last
season I fished for him, I would have done somewhat better.
6795. But was the debt really due for which you were
summoned?-I did not have any pass-book, and got no copy
of my account, so that I could not say whether it was due or not.
6796. Did you ever ask for a pass-book?-I have asked for copies
of my account.
6797. Did you get them?-At one time I got a copy of my account
for nine years.
6798. Had your debt been running on increasing for nine years?-
It was always increasing.
6799. Have you got these accounts here, or are they in your
lawyer's hands?-They are in Mr. Spence's hands in Lerwick.
6800. How often did you ask for them before you got the accounts
for the nine years?-I asked for them when I was summoned.
6801. Had you ever asked for them before?-Yes; I had asked for
them sometimes, but not every year.
6802. Did you always get them when you asked for them?-No; I
got none until I got the whole at one time.
6803. Why did you not get them when you asked for them?-I
don't know; I never was refused them, but I did not get them.
6804. Were you just put off?-Yes.
6805. Did you fish for Mr. Anderson all the time these accounts
were running up?-Yes. The commencement of the debt was
when I lost a fleet of lines by bad weather. There might have been
a little due before that, but it was very little.
6806. How much do you call a fleet of lines?-Just what the boat
carries. A boat takes 108 lines, and we lost them all except
eighteen. The weather prevented us from taking any more in.
6807. Were these lines hired from Mr. Anderson?-Yes.
6808. Are the fishermen always liable for hired lines which they
lose?-Yes. If they lose lines which they have hired, they have to
pay for them.
6809. What is the value of these lines?-The price is about 2s. 8d.
per line for new lines when they are ready for sea.
6810. Then a fleet of 108 lines would cost about £8 or £10?-I
never give any consideration to what the cost of them might be.
There were some of them old and some of them new; but I think
2s. 8d. was about the price for new lines about that time. The
price varies at different times.
6811. Is not each man of the boat's crew liable for his share of the
lines?-Yes. If there are five men in a boat, then the lines belong
to these men, and they have each to pay their share of the hire for
the season.
6812. In that way, you would be liable only for one-fifth of the
value of the lines?-Yes; only for one-fifth that year.
6813. And that was the beginning of your debt?-Yes; but it was
always going on, as I had a small family, and they were needing
bread. Then interest was charged, and such as that.
6814. Was there any interest charged upon that account?-Yes.
6815. Are you sure of that?-Yes. It is marked down in the copies
that I got.
6816. Did you ever know any man who got the whole of his
accounts for nine years at once except yourself?-No.
6817. Did you ever know a man who asked for them?-No.
[Page 165]
6818. Did you ever know a man who was nine years in debt to a
fish-merchant, with the debt always increasing, except yourself?-
I could not positively say. I could not pick out any particular man;
but very likely there are some who have been in the same position.
6819. During the time your debt was increasing, did you continue
to fish every year for Mr. Anderson?-I was fishing for him the
whole time.
6820. Did you, during that time, sell any of your fish to other
merchants?-I did. The last year I was fishing for him I sold
some fish to others, in order to keep my family alive.
6821. Who did you sell them to that year?-To Mr. Adie's factor.
6822. Was that what you call smuggling fish?-Yes. It was
necessity that made me do it, in order to save my family.
6823. Was any objection made to your selling them?-No. I
told that in court the same as I am telling it to you, and there was
nothing said to me for doing it. I was obliged to do it.
6824. Was it not quite a fair thing for Mr. Anderson to do to
summon you for the debt you were due him?-He did summon
me for it; and when I asked him how it was to be paid, he wanted
me either to pay it down at once or get cautioners for it, but I
could not do either of these things. I perhaps I might have got a
cautioner, but the money I did not have.
6825. Is it usual for a fisherman to get a cautioner when he is a
little in debt?-I don't know; some of them have got one.
6826. But if the man continues to fish for the merchant to whom
the debt is due, is he required to get a cautioner?-No. It is only
when he goes away from the merchant that he is asked for a
cautioner.
6827. Were you bound in any way to fish for Mr. Anderson, or for
any one else, during these nine years?-I suppose I was, from the
way I was in debt to him; but, instead of getting out of debt, the
debt always increased.
6828. Whose fault was that?-I don't know. It was not my fault.
As I have said, the last season I fished for Mr. Anderson I did not
have a boat fit to go to sea with; but very likely, if I had had a good
boat that season, as it was a good year's fishing, I might have got
the debt somewhat reduced. Therefore it was not my fault. I got a
boat from him, but ought to have got one that was fit to go to sea.
6829. Had you not your choice of boat?-I had no choice of a boat
for that season.
6830. Where do you get the supplies for your family now?-From
Laurence Smith, the man I fish to.
6831. Do you settle with him every year?-Yes; I have settled with
him two years now.
6832. Had you something to get in cash last year?-Yes. The first
year I fished for Laurence Smith I had 28s. to get, after paying for
the things I had got from him during the season. This year, when I
settled with him, I was clear. I had nothing to get, or very little.
6833. Were these two good fishing years?-They were very good;
but the fishing is not the same with all the boats. They are not
always equal in the same year.
6834. What was the price of meal at these two stores you have
been dealing with?-It is just up and down, according to the
market-less in one year than another. I think that last year it was
about 21s. per boll in Mr. Smith's store.
6835. Are you told the price at the time you buy the meal?-Yes.
6836. Is the quality of the meal you get there as good as at Mr.
Anderson's?-Yes, it is equally good. Meal and flour are just the
same at the one place as at the other.
6837. Could you get better meal or flour anywhere else?-I don't
know. We would, no doubt, get a different quality in Lerwick, if
we were dealing there.
6838. Have you tried it there?-No.
6839. Are you obliged to take your provisions from the shop of the
merchant you fish for?-I don't know about that. I have asked Mr.
Smith at different times for a few shillings until the end of the
twelvemonth.
6840. Have you got it?-Yes; I got it, but I never asked for any
money to buy meal with, because he brought up stores there to
supply his customers.
6842. But is it understood among the fishermen here that they
ought to take their stores, or part of them, both provisions and
clothing, from the merchant to whom they sell their fish?-That is
generally the way in which they take there.
6842. Are they generally obliged to do that?-No; I don't think
they are obliged to do it.
6843. Can they get cash from the merchants with which to buy
their goods in other places?-I don't know. If the merchant has
meal and other things which they are requiring, and can sell them
as cheap and as good as they can get them at any other place then,
of course, they don't need to ask money from him.
6844. But they generally do get their provisions from the
merchant's shop, and nowhere else?-Yes.
6845. Did you ever ask for cash with which to go and buy your
provisions from another store?-No; but I got an allowance from
Mr. Smith with which to go to Mr. Anderson's factor if he (Mr.
Smith) did not have the things I wanted.
6846. When was that?-I got it in both years when was fishing for
Mr. Smith.
6847. Was that a general allowance or was it given to you on some
particular occasion, when you wanted something?-If there was
anything I required for the fishing, which Mr. Smith did not have,
then I got leave from him to sell fish to another merchant, so that I
might buy it, or I got cash from him with which to buy it from
another.
6848. That, I suppose, was when you wanted any kind of clothing
which he did not keep?-Yes; or a bit of meat, or butter or meal, if
he did not have it. Then he gave us money to buy it with from Mr.
Anderson's, or allowed us to go and sell fish to Mr. Anderson and
to purchase it.
6849. Did you often do that?-Not often.
6850. Your daughter was examined to-day?-Yes.
6851. She works at the kelp?-Yes, a little. She is young yet, and
has not done much to it.
6852. She also knits a little?-Yes. The most she has knitted has
been for people belonging to the family, stockings and other things
that we were requiring for ourselves.
6853. She also sells your eggs?-Yes.
6854. When she sells these things, are they paid for in money or in
goods?-We are generally requiring some stores for the house:
soap or soda, or a little tea or sugar; and they are got in that way.
6855. Does she always sell her hosiery for goods?-Yes; I suppose
she never asked anything else for it.
6856. Do you sell the eggs yourself, or are they usually sold by
your daughter?-They are generally sold by her.
6857. Has she a book of her own in which they are entered?-She
has no book. They are generally paid for at once.
6858. How are you paid for your winter fishing?-We were
generally paid for every haul as we brought it ashore, but we
cannot do that now. We have to salt our fish ourselves in the
winter fishing; and when we have got as many as two or three
cwt. we send them over to Mr. Laurenson, and sell them to him.
6859. Then you are paid for them on account now?-Yes; we
cannot settle for them now every time we come ashore. We salt
so much, and sell it off, and then we begin to salt again; but
before, when we sold our fish green, we settled for every haul of
fish as they came ashore.
6860. Did you do that with Mr. Anderson too?-Yes, as long as I
fished to him.
6861. Did you get cash for that?-No; I cannot say that I ever got
cash.
6862. Did you ask for it?-Yes; we asked for cash [Page 166]
several times, but we only got a small line, saying we had
delivered so many fish.
6863. Have you got any of these lines this year?-No.
6864. What did you do with these lines?-When we came back
with the line, we got anything we required for it.
6865. Did the line name any particular sum of money?-Yes.
The haul was divided between four men, and every man got his
haul marked down on a separate line, with his name on it.
Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, ANDREW ANDERSON,
examined.
6866. Are you a fisherman at Hillyar?-I am.
6867. Do you live there?-Yes.
6868. Who do you fish for?-I have fished for Laurence Smith for
the last two years.
6869. Who did you fish for before?-I fished for different men, for
Mr. Inkster, Mr. Anderson, Mr. Williamson, and now for Mr.
Smith.
6870. Who did you fish for last before Mr. Smith?-For Gideon
Williamson, or James Williamson, his uncle.
6871. Is your fishing paid for every year in the winter?-Yes.
6872. Do you generally get a payment in cash at settlement?-I
have been a poor man, and very unfortunate, and I never had much
cash to get; but sometimes I did get some, and sometimes not.
6873. What was the reason why you did not get it?-A poor man
sometimes did not have it to get.
6874. Were you generally in debt to the merchants?-Sometimes I
was a good deal in their debt and sometimes not, just as the season
turned out. In some years I cleared off all my debt, and in other
years I was a good bit behind.
6875. How long have you been in debt?-I have been in debt now
for a good while, I cannot tell for how many years; and when I
could not pay my debt, then I could not get my supplies, and that
was what made me shift from man to man.
6876. Have you shifted often for that reason?-I have shifted
twice because I was in debt.
6877. When did you shift first because you were in debt?-I
cannot tell how long it is ago.
6878. Who did you shift from then?-From Mr. Anderson to Mr.
Williamson.
6879. You were in debt to Mr. Anderson at that time?-Yes.
6880. And you could get no more supplies?-I could not get the
supply that I asked for, and for that cause I left.
6881. When your supplies were stopped, did you go on fishing for
Mr. Anderson until the end of the season?-I had not commenced
then, and my family required meat, and I had no money to buy it
with.
6882. Why were your supplies stopped? Was it because you were
in debt?-Mr. Anderson never said anything about that; but when I
asked for bread, he said they would not give it until fishing time.
6883. How much were you in debt at that time?-I don't recollect.
6884. Had your debt been running on for a number of years?-
Not for a great many years; but I was a good bit in debt to him,
although I don't recollect how much, as I had no pass-book, and
no copy of my account.
6885. Was it ten years ago since that happened?-I cannot say
rightly, because I was away from him for a while, and then I had
to go back again, and afterwards I left him again.
6886. How much were you due him? Was it as much as £10?-I
don't think it was so much as that, but I don't remember.
6887. Was it not quite reasonable that he should ask you for
payment of your debt?-Certainly; but I had no money, and I
could not give it. He had a right to ask for his debt, as everybody
has; and I had a right to pay it, if I had been able.
6888. Did you leave Williamson because you were in his debt
too?-No; the old man died, and then this man broke. I was
serving him after that, but he was not able to give me my supplies,
either clothes or meal, and therefore I left him.
6889. Were you in his debt?-I was due him a little.
6890. But you did not leave him because you were in his debt?-
No; it was only because he could not give me supplies.
6891. And you get your supplies now from Mr. Smith?-Yes; I
have got them from him for the last two years, when I have been
fishing for him.
6892. Do you generally get a balance in cash at the end of the
year?-No; I have not settled with him this year, and I don't know
yet what I am to get.
6893. Had you a balance to get last year?-No; I was nearly clear
with him.
6894. But there was a balance against you?-Yes; but it was not
much-a mere trifle.
6895. Do you get cash from him during the season if you want
it?-No; I will get anything he has in his shop to supply me with,
either meat or anything else; but cash is seldom to be got.
6896. Why is that?-I don't know. I suppose it is because the man
has not got much himself. Cash is not often very plentiful with
him.
6897. Have you often asked for cash?-Not often. I may have
asked for a shilling or two at a time. I could get anything else he
had in his shop, but money was a thing that was seldom or never
got.
Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, LAURENCE PETERSON,
examined.
6898. You are a fisherman, and the son of a previous witness?-I
am.
6899. Whom do you fish for?-I fished first for Mr. Anderson for
two years.
6900. Whom do you fish for now?-For Mr. Joseph Leask,
Lerwick, at the Faroe fishing.
6901. When did you give over going to the home-fishing?-In
1868.
6902. You fished for Mr. Anderson then?-Yes.
6903. Had you an account in his shop?-Yes.
6904. When you settled up at the end of the year, had you a
balance to receive in cash?-Yes; in both years when I fished
for him.
6905. Did you get money in the course of the season if you wanted
it?-No.
6906. Did you ask for it?-Yes.
6907. Was it refused to you?-Yes.
6908. Why?-I don't know.
6909. But you got as much goods as you wanted?-Yes.
6910. What was the balance you received in cash at the end of
these years?-I don't remember how much it was the first year;
but in the second year I had 10s. to get.
6911. In the Faroe fishing you are paid at the end of the year
too?-Yes.
6912. Are you paid in cash?-Yes; if we want it, we are paid in
cash.
6913. Have you an account in Mr. Leask's shop?-Yes. I have an
account the whole time, from the time I go out until I come back
and go again.
6914. Is that account closed when you come back from the
fishing?-Yes; I have no account after that.
6915. Is that because you live at a distance from Lerwick during
the winter?-I suppose that is the reason.
6916. What is your account for?-For tea, coffee, butter, pork, and
such things as that.
6917. Have you got a pass-book?-No, I asked for [Page 167] one
in 1870, but they refused to mark anything into a pass-book, and I
never asked for it again.
6918. Who refused it?-The people in the shop; and they did not
give a pass-book to any one more than to me.
6919. Was it refused to you in Mr. Leask's shop in Lerwick?-
Yes.
6920. Did they give you any reason for refusing?-They thought it
too much bother, I suppose. I knew of no other reason.
6921. Were the things you got for your own use at the fishing?-
Yes.
6922. Did you take them all to the fishing with you?-Yes; we buy
cloth and all other things for ourselves. We are only supplied with
bread.
6923. What you got from the shop was what you call small
stores?-Yes.
6924. Did you get anything from Mr. Leask's shop except your
small stores and your outfit?-Yes; I bought some meal and took
it home.
6925. Did you do that more than once?-I bought some for myself,
and I bought some when I went out first in spring, and sent it
home.
6926. Were these the things that you wanted to have entered in the
pass-book?-Yes; these things of my own small stores and clothes,
and anything I required.
6927. Did you get these articles at many different times in the
course of the year, or did you just get them once or twice when
you came home?-I got them twice.
6928. How often does your boat generally come home from the
Faroe fishing in the course of the season?-We generally make
two voyages; last year we made three.
6929. And you would be getting something additional each time
you came home?-Yes. All we require is small stores for every
voyage.
6930. What amount of the price of your fish did you get at settling
time in these two years when you were at the Faroe fishing?-Last
year I got an account for £17, and this year it was £22.
6931. That was the whole price of your fish?-Yes.
6932. But how much had you to get in money at the end of the
year on the whole of your account?-I had £16 odds to get last
year, and this year I had £10.
6933. Was that all paid to you in money at the settlement?-If I
had liked to take it all in money I could have got it, but I did not
take it all. I left some money in the book in Mr. Leask's shop.
6934. Then your account is still standing in his book?-Yes.
6935. What was your reason for sending meal home to your people
from Lerwick?-I suppose the reason was, because they could not
get a supply at home from Mr. Anderson, whom they were serving.
6936. Was that about the time when your father left off fishing for
him?-Yes, that was about the time.
6937. Did you ever work as a beach boy here?-No; I was always
at school before I went to the fishing.
Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, JOHN SANDISON,
examined.
6938. Are you a fisherman?-I am.
6939. Have you got some land?-Yes; I live on a farm in
Hillswick along with my father. The land we have belongs to
the Busta estate.
6940. Do you go to the home fishing?-Yes.
6941. For whom do you fish?-For Mr. Anderson. I have fished
for him and his brother for upwards of twenty years. I went to the
fishing when I was a little boy. I never was at the beach.
6942. Do you settle every year for your fishing?-Yes; about the
middle of November.
6943. You have an account of your own in Mr. Anderson's
ledger?-Yes.
6944. Do you get supplies of goods from his shop?-Yes.
6945. Do you get your goods anywhere else?-Yes, occasionally.
6946. Where?-Perhaps from Laurence Smith or from Arthur
Harrison, just as may suit my convenience.
6947. What quantity do you get at these different shops? Do you
get more at one than at another?-Yes; I get most from Mr.
Anderson's.
6948. Do you get the same kind of goods there as at Smith's and
Harrison's?-Yes, much the same.
6949. Then what is your reason for going to them?-I have had
little employment from Smith for the last two years, which led me
to take a few supplies from him.
6950. Did you fish for him?-No; I was employed by him at other
kinds of work-principally boat-building during the winter and
spring.
6951. Have you an account with Mr. Smith for boat-building?-
Yes.
6952. Do you take goods in settlement of that account?-Yes; but
it is just because I think it right myself. I am in no way compelled
to do so.
6953. But you keep an account with Smith, and the goods you
get are put on one side of it, and the amount of your payment
for boat-building is put on the other?-Yes; until the time of
settlement.
6954. What is the time of settlement for boat-building?-Much
about the same time as for the other-some time in November or
December.
6955. Do you get money whenever you ask it for your
boat-building?-Yes; if I was to ask for money, I would get it.
6956. Do you get money during the season from Mr. Anderson for
your fishing when you ask for it?-Yes; I never was refused
money at any time.
6957. Did you ever ask for it except at settling time?-Yes.
6958. How much did you ask for?-Small sums.
6959. You said the reason why you went to Laurence Smith for
some of your goods was, because you were employed by him: is it
a general sort of understanding that when a man is employed by a
merchant, he deals with him for his goods?-To a certain extent it
is.
6960. He is not altogether bound to do it?-No, not in my
experience.
6961. But is it thought fair and proper that he should take a certain
quantity of his goods from that merchant?-If a merchant gives a
man employment, and he has the goods as good and as cheap as
they can be got elsewhere, it is generally thought that the man
should take his goods from him.
6962. Would it not be better to get your payments in cash at
shorter periods, rather than to have the whole of your money paid
to you at the end of the year?-I don't know.
6963. Do you not forget what quantity of goods you have got from
the merchant in the course of the year?-Oh no. We can easily
remember what goods we have had; and besides, we generally
keep accounts of our own; at least I do so.
6964. Have you got a pass-book in which are entered all the goods
you receive from Mr. Anderson?-Yes [produces pass-book].
6965. How long have you kept that passbook?-I think it is from
1865 or 1866 to the present time.
6966. Is that just a copy of the account that is entered in Mr.
Anderson's book?-Yes.
6967. I see here an entry of a payment to Mr. Inkster: what was
that for?-I asked Mr. Anderson to make it.
6968. Were you in Mr. Anderson's debt at the time?-I don't think
I was.
6969. Is there any entry here showing how you are settled with at
the end of the year?-Yes [showing]; the balance in 1870 was £14,
8s. 7d.
6970. You live with your father?-Yes.
6971. And you take meal from Mr. Anderson for the supply of
your father's family?-Yes, at times, when they require it.
6972. Is the meal which you get there of good [Page 168]
quality?-Yes; it is the same as we can get anywhere else in the
country.
6973. Have you compared the price of the meal which you get
there with the prices at which you can get it elsewhere?-Yes.
6974. Have you got meal from Lerwick?-Yes; and when the cost
of carriage came to be added to it, it was much the same price as at
Mr. Anderson's.
6975. Have you tried that more than once?-Yes.
6976. Is the flour of good quality?-Yes; the flour is not bad, and
the price is just about the same as at Lerwick after adding
something for carriage.
Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, LAURENCE ANDERSON,
examined.
6977. Are you a fisherman?-Yes; I have been a fisherman for
some time.
6978. Have you got any land, or do you live with your father?-I
am living with my father.
6979. Who do you fish for?-I have fished for Laurence Smith for
three years.
6980. Do you settle with him every year in winter?-Yes.
6981. Have you an account with him for the articles which you get
from his shop?-Yes.
6982. Have you generally a balance to get in cash at the end of the
year?-Yes. If there is anything coming to me then, I get it.
6983. When did you settle with him last?-I settled for last year
about two months ago.
6984. How much was due to you then?-I was due him a little; but
it was not much.
6985. Were you due him anything when you settled for the year
before?-I was.
6986. And the year before that?-No; the year before that I was
clear. I had something to get the year before.
6987. When you have anything to get at the end of the year, is it
paid to you in money?-No; I have not got any money.
6988. When there was a balance due to you three years ago, did
you not get it in money?-No, I did not ask it.
6989. It was left standing, and was carried into the next
account?-Yes.
6990. And you got goods for it as you required them?-Yes.
6991. Is it a usual thing for the men here to get their balances in
money?-No; they don't get them in money.
6992. How do they get them?-They get supplies, and perhaps
they may get a little money.
6993. Given after settlement?-Yes.
6994. Have you a pass-book?-Yes [produces it].
6995. That book commences in 1870. Had you no pass-book
before?-No.
6996. Would you not be better to be paid in cash for the whole of
what was due to you?-Yes; but I have never got the cash.
6997. But could you not have got it in cash, instead of taking all
these goods, if you had liked?-No. I have been a poor man now
for the time that is past, and I have never had the money, and I
could not get it.
6998. You required to get supplies and you could not pay for them
in money?-Yes. I always got what wanted from this man; he did
not keep anything back, but the money I did not have to get. I did
not have money, and I could not get it.
6999. Did you begin to work as a beach boy?-Yes. I was two
years at Hillyar fishing station first, and then at Ollaberry.
7000. Was that for Mr. Anderson?-No; it was for Mr. George
Henry.
7001. What did you get as a beach boy?-I got 20s. the first year;
and I was there three months.
7002. Was that as long ago as ten years?-Yes, it will be ten years
since I first went to it.
7003. How was that 20s. paid to you?-I just got what I required
from him at the time.
7004. Had you any money to get at the end of the first year?-No,
not at the end of the first year; but the second year I had 10s. to
get, and I got it.
7005. How many years were you a beach boy?-Five years.
7006. During that time you always had an account with your
employer?-Yes.
7007. Were you always with the same employer?-No; I was two
years with Mr. Henry, and three years with Mr. Anderson.
7008. Had you always a little balance of money to get at the end of
the year from Mr. Anderson?-No. The first year I was clear; the
second year I was due very little, but the third year I was due
something. Then, the first year I was at the haaf, I fished for Mr.
Anderson.
7009. Could you have gone to fish for anybody else that year if you
had liked?-Yes; but I made a bargain that year to fish for him.
7010. Was it because you were in his debt that you made a bargain
to fish for him?-Yes. I had nothing for supplies, and I got my
supplies the first year from him.
7011. Would you have got your supplies from Mr. Anderson and
still have been at liberty to engage with anybody else for the
haaf?-No.
7012. Why?-I did not engage with any other body that year.
7013. But would you have been at liberty to have done that if you
had liked?-I don't know. If I had been clear with Mr. Anderson,
I might have had my liberty.
7014. You thought you were not at liberty because, you were not
clear?-Yes.
7015. Were you told you were not at liberty to engage with
anybody after you had got your supplies from Mr. Anderson?-No.
7016. You just wanted the supplies, and you went and engaged
yourself to him?-Yes. Of course, I had to get my supplies, and I
just got them from the man that I was to engage with.
7017. But nobody asked you to engage for the haaf?-Yes.
7018. Is it usual for men to be engaged for the haaf fishing so early
as November?-Yes; most of them are engaged then.
7019. Although the haaf fishing does not begin until six months
afterwards?-Yes.
7020. What is their reason for engaging so early in the season?-
Most of time, when they are settling up, engage for a new year.
They make up their crews then.
7021 Is it more convenient for the men to make up their crews
then?-Yes.
7022. Why?-Because they know then who are to go together in
the rising year.
7023 Do they get supplies more readily from the merchants if
they make up their crews at that time and engage to fish for the
following year?-Yes, when they are in debt.
7024. Is that one reason why the men sometimes make up their
crews and make their engagements so soon?-I don't know, but I
believe there is something in that.
7025. Was that the reason why you engaged so early that first year
when you went to the fishing?-It was because I was in debt that
year when I left the beach.
7026. Have you been in debt in other years?-Yes. I was in debt
to Mr. Anderson at settling time for the first year I fished for him.
I left him because I was in debt, and could not get supplies.