Not to my knowledge.
6092. Do you consider yourself under any obligation to ship in Mr.
Adie's smacks for Faroe?-I do.
6093. Is that because you are in his debt?-Yes.
6094. Are there many other men who go in smacks for the same
reason?-I cannot answer that.
6095. Have you ever heard any of your shipmates say they were in
Mr. Adie's debt, and that they could not ship with anybody else?-
Not so far as I remember.
[Page 151]
6096. Do you know whether, in point of fact, many of them are in
debt to Mr. Adie?-I don't know.
6097. Have you ever heard that they were?-I don't remember.
6098. When are you told the price you are to get for your fish at
the Faroe fishing? Is it at the settling time?-We are told some
time before, but not long.
6099. You leave the selling of the fish in the hands of the
merchant entirely?-Yes.
6100. Is it the bargain that you are to be paid according to the
current price at the end of the year for your half of the fish?-Yes.
6101. Before bringing out your half, there is a deduction of 5 per
cent. for commission?-I don't know about that. I have heard of
it, but I cannot say anything about it. I forget about these matters.
6102. Do you understand the bargain you make, and the way in
which the settlement is made for your fish?-We get one half of
the fish, and have to pay for salt and for the drying of the fish.
6103. Do you know of any other deductions that are made from
your earnings?-Yes; there is a deduction made for part of the bait
with which the fish are caught.
6104. Is there not something for lines?-We generally buy our
own lines.
6105. Are these set down as part of your account in the shop?-
Yes.
6106. But not in the pass-book?-Perhaps not.
6107. The book you have produced is for your own family
requirements?-I generally take the book with me; and when I
have it, I mark into it what I get out of the shop.
6108. Is it the boat's crew, or is it you individually, who are liable
for the lines?-Every man takes lines for himself, if he chooses.
6109. Do you fish any when you come home from the Faroe
fishing?-I fish a little, but nothing that can do me any good
towards selling. I get no selling fish.
6110. You only fish for your own use, then?-Yes.
6111. In a small boat of your own?-Yes; or sometimes on the
stones.
6112. Do you never sell any of the fish that you catch when you
come home from Faroe?-No; I have not sold any for the last four
years, so far as I remember.
6113. Would it not be easier for you to get your shop goods at
Ollaberry, rather than to bring them fourteen miles from Voe?-If
I want it, I can get anything sent down to Ollaberry.
6114. How far is it from your house to the shop at Ollaberry?-
About half a mile.
6115. Do you get things there as good as at Voe?-Yes.
6116. And as cheap?-Yes, so far as I can judge.
6117. Would you get them always at Ollaberry if you were not
fishing for Mr. Adie?-I cannot answer that.
6118. If you were not fishing for Mr. Adie, would you take
the trouble of going to Voe every week or every month, as you
wanted, to bring meal or tea or anything you wanted to buy?-
No, I would not.
6119. Do you get your meal at Voe?-Yes; most that we use
comes from there.
6120. I see it is not entered in your pass-book?-No; because the
meal has generally been sent in my absence, and I carry the book
about with me.
6121. How is it sent?-I have got some of it sent from Aberdeen to
Ollaberry direct.
6122. How much was there of it at a time?-I don't remember.
6123. Was there a quantity sent at the same time to other people
besides you?-No; it was only for myself and my family. I got a
boll, or a sack, or whatever I wished Mr. Adie to send for.
6124. Mr. Adie got it sent from Aberdeen to you?-Yes, because I
could get it cheaper from Aberdeen than from his own store. The
money, of course, was his.
6125. Are there any other men fishing for Mr. Adie at
Ollaberry?-I don't think there are.
6126. How did the meal come to Ollaberry from Aberdeen?-It
came by the steamboat to Lerwick; and there are two vessels that
come north, either of which it might have come by,-either the
little steamboat or a packet which ran there.
6127. What did you pay for that meal?-I cannot say.
6128. Is it settled for yet?-My account is squared up.
6129. Was it this year you got it?-Yes; but I have got it in
previous years in the same way.
6130. Do you know what you paid for it before?-I don't
remember.
6131. When was your account squared up?-Fourteen days ago.
6132. It was not squared up in your pass-book then?-No, I had it
with me; but I wanted to get home soon, and I did not ask Mr.
Adie to look over the pass-book.
6133. You saw there was a balance against you then?-Yes.
6134. Did you not ask the price of the meal you had got?-No.
6135. Did you not hear it mentioned?-No.
6136. Are there any people in your house who knit?-Yes; my
wife knits.
6137. Where does she sell her hosiery?-She sells it at Ollaberry,
or Lochend, or at Hillswick, whichever place is most convenient.
She buys the wool, and spins it herself. The articles which she
knits are not very fine, and she sells them to any person who will
buy them.
6138. Is she paid in goods or in money?-Generally in goods.
6139. Does she sometimes get money?-No; she seldom asks for
it.
6140. Why does she not ask for it? Does she not want it?-No,
not so far as I know.
6141. Has she an account in these shops?-She has an account in
some of them. She has an account with Mr. Laurenson at
Lochend.
6142. Anywhere else?-I don't know.
6143. Is that an account in your own name, or in hers?-It is an
account of her own, so far as I know.
6144. Is it quite a separate dealing from anything you have to do
with?-Yes.
6145. Have you ever had to pay your wife's account at Mr.
Laurenson's?-No.
6146. Has she ever got money from that account for her hosiery to
pay for your rent or for anything you wanted to buy?-No.
6147. Is it the practice not to sell hosiery for money in your
neighbourhood?-I cannot say. I know that the general thing is
goods.
6148. When is your wife's account with Mr. Laurenson settled?-
It is settled when she is able to pay it.
6149. Has she generally something to pay for what she gets, or has
she a balance in her favour?-It is seldom she has a balance in her
favour.
6150. If she has such a balance, is it settled in goods?-I cannot
answer that. If she wanted money she might get it, for anything
that I know.
6151. Do you pay a subscription to the Shipwrecked Mariners'
Society?-Yes; 8s. a year.
6152. Have you ever lost any lines or a boat?-No.
6153. Have you ever had anything to receive from the Society?-
Yes; I was once sent home when I was shipwrecked.
6154. Was that all you have had to get from it?-Yes.
6155. Do you know of any people who have been turned out of
their land in Shetland?-Not in our district.
6156. Do you know of any who have been turned out
elsewhere?-Yes; Mr. Walker turned out some Delting, on
Major Cameron's estate.
6157. What was that for?-Because he wanted the land. Some of
them were very anxious to sit if they could have done so, but I
suppose they could not comply with his terms.
6158. Were these men fishermen?-Yes.
[Page 152]
6159. He did not want their service as fishermen?-Not to my
knowledge.
6160. Do you know of any man who has been turned out of his
ground for refusing to fish, or for selling his fish away from his
landlord or tacksmaster?-Not that I remember of.
6161. Does your wife sell any eggs?-Yes.
6162. Anything else off your farm?-She has nothing else to sell.
6163. Where are your eggs sold?-We generally sell them in
Ollaberry to Mr. Irvine.
6164. Have you an account there?-Yes.
6165. Is it settled at the end of the year?-If I am able to settle it;
but if I am not able to settle, then it just stands.
6166. Are your eggs put down to your account?-No.
6167. Are you paid for them in cash?-Yes, if I want it.
6168. How do you pay your account there, if you never get money
from Mr. Adie at Voe?-Generally in this part of the world we are
not confined to one thing. People in this country have sometimes
different ways of getting money.
6169. Do you follow some other trade?-Yes; I sometimes sew as
a tailor.
6170. And you make a little money in that way?-Yes.
6171. Are you paid in money for your tailoring work?-Generally.
6172. Is that done for your neighbours?-Yes; but I generally work
for Mr. Adie and I am paid in money for that.
6173. Do you go to Voe to work, or do you go there for it and take
it home?-I take it home.
6174. Does the payment for that work go into your account with
Mr. Adie?-If I don't want it paid to me, it goes into the account;
but if I want money, I get it.
6175. When you want money to settle your account with Mr.
Irvine at Ollaberry, is that where you get it?-Not always.
6176. You get it from a party for whom you have made a coat or
trousers?-Yes.
6177. You say that your eggs don't go into the account with Mr.
Irvine: are you always paid for them in cash?-Not always. We
sometimes take goods for them; but if we wanted them to go in to
our credit, they would go.
6178. Do you always take goods for them?-Generally.
6179. What is the price of your eggs?-For the last year or two
they have generally been 6d.
6180. Can you sell them anywhere you like?-Yes.
6181. Could you sell them at Mossbank or at Brae if you could get
a better price there?-So far as I know, we could.
6182. Nobody would make any objection to that?-Not so far as I
know.
Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, THOMAS THOMASON,
examined.
6183. You are a fisherman at Eshaness?-Yes; and I fish at the
fishing station at Stenness.
6184. Have you a boat of your own?-I have a share of a boat.
6185. Who do you fish for?-I have fished for Mr. Anderson for a
while, but I might fish to any one I choose. I have fished for Mr.
Anderson for a number of years.
6186. Have you a bit of land?-Yes, on Tangwick estate-Mrs.
Cheyne's.
6187. Who is the factor there?-Mr. Gifford of Busta.
6188. Are you quite at liberty to engage to fish with any merchant
you please?-Yes, any one. I am at perfect freedom to fish to any
man, and I have always been so.
6189. Do you keep an account with Mr. Anderson at Hillswick?-
Yes; I always keep my own account myself.
6190. Have you a pass-book?-No.
6191. You have an account in his books?-I generally have.
6192. Do you generally get your supplies and provisions from
him?-I do; but I buy my provisions where I think I can get them
cheapest. I am not bound to get my provisions from him.
6193. Do you find they are as good at Hillswick as you can get
them anywhere else in the country?-I find that I cannot get much
profit or advantage by going even to Lerwick to buy my goods,
more than by buying them at Hillswick. I could not get so much
profit as would pay me for my trouble.
6194. Have you bought meal at both places?-I generally buy very
little meal.
6195. Do you get enough meal off your own ground to serve
you?-Generally I do. I have a pretty good farm-just as much as
will hold us in meal.
6196. How far do you live from Hillswick?-About four English
miles.
6197. When you go to Stenness, do you get your supplies there?-
Yes; the supplies that are required for the fishing.
6198. You keep an account for these with Mr. Anderson at
Hillswick?-Yes.
6199. And that is balanced every year?-Yes; I settle once a
year-perhaps in November.
6200. Have you generally a balance to get in cash?-Generally I
have.
6201. How much did you get last year?-I don't know; the amount
differs yearly.
6202. But how much had you to get last year?-I don't know.
Perhaps I had £20 to get from him.
6203. Was that the balance which was due to you?-Yes; I
suppose I got £20 of cash from him last year.
6204. Was that the whole price of your fish, or was it the balance
which you got in cash?-It was the balance I got in cash.
6205. Do you think many of your neighbours got much?-I don't
know, for I don't interfere with any man's accounts.
6206. Are you a skipper?-Yes.
6207. Have you any idea whether any of your men are as well off
at the end of the year as you are?-I think so.
6208. Are most of them as well off?-I think so.
6209. You don't hear them talking about having balance against
them?-No, I don't hear much about that. It does not lie in my
way to interfere with it.
6210. Do you think the fishermen are better off now than they used
to be long ago?-I think they are a great deal better off. I know I
am much better off than ever my father was.
6211. How does that happen?-Because my father was a bound
man, and had to fish at a very low price before he could be a
tenant; but being a free man, I pay my rent on a day, and I serve
any man I choose, and make the best bargain for myself that I can.
6212. Would you be better off if you knew before settling time
what you were to get for your fish at the end of the year?-I know
the price of the fish about settling time.
6213. But you don't know it until settling time?-No. I might be
worse off if I knew it sooner, because I might get a lower figure, as
the merchant could not be sure then what he would get for his fish.
The price of fish in the south varies yearly.
6214. Who fixes the price at the end of the season?-I am not able
to answer that exactly.
6215. What is your bargain about it?-I have had no particular
bargains with the fish-curer; but there is an understanding that I
have to get the highest currency of the country.
6216. Do you know how that is settled?-I don't; or if I have
heard it, I did not understand.
6217. You don't know how it is found out what the highest
currency is?-No; I cannot answer that exactly.
[Page 153]
6218. Who tells you what it is?-It is publicly known at settlement
what is to be paid for the fish. We know what every man pays,
and what the dry fish can realize.
6219. Is Hillswick the nearest shop you can go to for your
goods?-It is the nearest shop that I can go to to get good goods.
There are small articles sold nearer, but Hillswick is the only
shop.
6220. Did anybody tell you to come here to-day to give
evidence?-Nobody told me; but I heard that this was the day
on which the evidence was to be given.
6221. Who told you that?-I don't remember now who told me. I
think there was a lad from Hillswick who told me about it two
days back.
6222. What was his name?-Arthur Sandison.
6223. What does he do?-He is the shopkeeper here for Mr.
Anderson.
6224. And he told you to come here?-He told me this was the day
when the evidence was to be taken, and that it was to be a public
meeting. I understood something concerning it, and I came here
voluntarily. There was no man who instigated me to come.
6225. Did Sandison not tell you that you had better come?-I
don't remember him saying that I had better come or not; but,
however, no man instigated me to come. I did not require to be
cross-questioned to come; I just came freely of my own consent.
6226. You said the fishermen are better off now than they used to
be: can you tell me any difference there is upon their condition?-I
told you already that they were bound men before, but they are not
so now with me.
6227. Is there anything else in which they are better off?-Yes; I
think a free man is better in every point of view than a bound man.
6228. Do you think the men get a better price for their fish now?-
I think they are getting double now for their fish what they were
getting about fifty years back, or perhaps forty years.
6229. Do you know that from your father?-No; I know it from
my uncle's accounts. He was a factor at Stenness; and I see from
his accounts what the price at Stenness was then, and I know what
it is now, and can see the improvement.
6230. Have you got his accounts?-I have. I have looked into
them at home.
6231. What kind of accounts are they?-Factor's accounts.
6232. Do they show the price of the fish, or just the quantities
delivered?-They show the price paid to the fishermen, and also
the price of meal and other articles.
6233. What was the price of fish in those accounts?-It was as low
as 4s. per cwt. for green fish.
6234. And it is now about double?-Yes.
6235. Do you remember the price of meal then?-Meal was
sometimes very high. I remember seeing meal charged at 12s. per
lispund of 32 lbs. This season it has been 5s. 4d.
6236. But sometimes it is higher?-Yes; the price of meal varies
continually, just as it does in the south market. I don't think there
is much advantage on that score.
6237. You don't think there is much difference on the price of
meal, but on the price of fish there is a great difference?-Yes.
6238. Is there anything else you are able to tell me about the
subject of this inquiry?-I don't think so.
6239. Have you any boys engaged at fish-curing work?-I had one
boy engaged at it during the past season. He was in Mr. Adie's
service at Stenness.
6240. Mr. Adie keeps a shop there during the fishing season?-
Yes; to supply the fishermen with any necessaries during the time
of the fishing.
6241. Does your boy keep an account at that shop?-He has only
been employed for one season, and I kept his account and settled
for him myself. He is quite a young boy-only thirteen years of
age.
6242. Do you think it is better for you to do that than to allow him
to have an account of his own?-He is not capable of keeping
accounts yet. He has had no education for that.
6243. Had he no separate account in Mr. Adie's shop?-It was a
mere trifle.
6244. Was he paid his balance?-Yes; it was paid at once in cash.
Mr. Adie paid it to me.
6245. Is that a usual way of doing with the beach boys?-I think
every one who had cash to get got it at once, and the man who was
careful would get his cash at once. If I had £50 to get from the
fish-curer, I would get it handed to me at once. I say that from my
own personal experience; and that is always so with careful men.
6246. Then you are a successful man, and I daresay you have a
large balance at your bank account?-I have too large a family to
have a large balance there. I require a great deal of money for my
family.
6247. Have you ever gone to the Faroe fishing?-I have only been
a ling fisher.
Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, HENRY WILLIAMSON,
examined.
6248. What are you?-I am a fisherman at Stenness.
6249. Do you hold some land on Mrs. Cheyne's estate?-Stenness
is the station where we fish; and the farms we hold under crop, and
where we live, are near it, at Tangwick.
6250. Your land is on the Busta estate, and you pay your rent to
Mr. Gifford?-Yes.
6251. Are you free to fish to anybody you like?-Yes.
6252. For whom do you generally fish?-I have fished for Mr.
Anderson for twenty-three years back.
6253. Do you get your goods at Mr. Anderson's shop at
Hillswick?-Yes, for the most part, or anywhere else I choose.
6254. Is there any other shop in the neighbourhood where you get
goods?-Yes, occasionally. There is a shop at Ollaberry; and
there is a store of Mr. Adie's at Stenness, kept by a factor during
the fishing season.
6255. Are there also some small shops in the country?-Yes.
6256. Do you sometimes get goods from them?-Yes; if I require
them, and if it is convenient for me.
6257. But most of your dealings are at Hillswick?-Yes, because it
is near hand.
6258. Is it as handy a place for you as any?-Yes.
6259. Do you keep an account there?-Yes.
6260. Is it settled at the end of the year, when you settle for your
fish?-Yes.
6261. Have you generally a balance to get at the end of the year in
cash?-Yes, for the most part I have.
6262. How much?-It varies very much, according to the fishing.
We had a good season this year, and consequently we had a good
return.
6263. But sometimes you have a balance against you?-I have not
had that for some time back. When the fishing is good, of course a
careful man will be able to save money.
6264. Is it five or six years since the balance was on the wrong
side for you?-It is between twelve and twenty years since I was
due anything; but I found no difference in the man I was serving,
when I required money in advance then, than I do now when I
have money of my own to get.
6265. Do you get cash in the fishing season when you ask for it?-
Yes; whenever I asked for it, even when I had to ask for it in
advance, I got it.
6266. Are you quite satisfied with the goods you get at the shop?-
I am quite satisfied both with the qualities I receive, and with what
is charged for the goods I require.
6267. Would it do you any good to have the price of your fish
fixed at the beginning of the year, so that you would know what
you were to get for them?-I am convinced that it would be a great
disadvantage to the fishermen at large in Shetland; and that was
partly [Page 154] what brought me here, when I heard there was
to be a meeting. I knew little about it until I came here, but I
thought I was called upon to come and give you my views upon
it truly. I think the present system in Shetland has done better for
the fishermen than any new system would do which could be
brought in; and I think I know about it, because I have been at
the ling-fishing for fifty-four years.
6268. Have you always had your price fixed according to the
currency at the end of the year?-Yes. We only know our price
some time before settling time, and I suppose we are paid
according to the current price which rules in the south market.
6269. Do you think the price is always fairly enough fixed
according to the sales which the fish-merchants have made?-I
think so.
6270. Do other people not think so?-I don't know. I hear very
little said about that; and as to that, I would not regard much what
others said. I would have more regard to my own views.
6271. But have you heard complaints made about that?-I have no
doubt I have heard them. It is a very common thing for us to hear
people complaining.
6272. Is it the men who are bound to fish that are more apt to
complain?-No doubt it is; but I am quite convinced, as I have
already said, that any change in the system will not benefit the
labouring men.
6273. Why?-Because I think they are fully as well served now as
they could be. Those who are not able to pay at the time for what
goods they require are dealt fairly with, and are never brought to a
stand.
6274. Then you think it is an advantage for the fishermen, in a bad
season, to be able to get an advance in order to carry them through
until the following year?-I know it is, because, although I have
never been one farthing in debt, yet there are many men with
families who I know, if it had not been for the kindness of the
merchant or his factor in giving them advances, would never have
been able to carry through, because they had no means of their
own, and their families did not support them.
6275. Are there many men you have known of that kind who
have been carried through the season by the advances of the
fish-merchant?-A great many in some seasons, but not at
present. These have been fine years for Shetland.
6276. But some seasons ago, when the fishings and the crops were
not so good, were there many such men?-About twenty years ago
there were plenty of them.
6277. Were there many of them five years ago?-I don't know that
there were so many of them then. There was a bad season a short
time ago; but it is turned twenty years now since there were such
bad times in Shetland, and the people were carried through then
chiefly by the kindness of the merchants for whom they worked.
6278. They got advances on their accounts just in the same way as
you would get your cash paid to you, if the merchant were due it to
you?-Yes; and not only that, but I know that the curers often paid
their rents for them in cash in advance, although I did not have
much experience of that myself.
6279. Were these advances generally made in money, or in articles
which the men wanted out of the shop?-Generally in goods.
6280. When a man wanted food or provisions, I suppose he would
generally get them advanced to him out of the fish-merchant's
shop?-Yes; or any place where it would be most convenient.
6281. But you say that in these bad years, when a man was behind,
it was the fish-merchant who carried him through?-It was. They
were carried through merely by the agency of the fish-curer.
6282. Did the fish-curer carry them through by giving them money
with which to pay their rent?-No; the curers brought in sufficient
meal to serve their purposes.
6283. And that meal was sold at the merchants' shops, and put to
the account of the men?-Yes.
6284. Was that done with clothing too?-Yes, clothing, and
whatever they required to get.
6285. But all that was done by these merchants in the confidence
that the men would pay them, if they were able, by the next year's
fishing?-No doubt they were repaid in some cases, but in some
cases the repayment was very slow. That depended altogether
upon whether the times turned out favourable.
6286. Do you know any of the men who were helped through in
that way?-I have no doubt I know them, but I have no interest to
say much about them. I don't want to enter into that matter at all.
I am getting well advanced in life, and I don't want to speak about
my neighbours' affairs.
6287. Were there many of your neighbours who were carried
through in that sort of way?-There were a great many of them
who required supplies.
6288. Did it take a great many years to carry some of them
through, and to enable them to pay up what had been advanced to
them?-I cannot tell how their accounts may be standing at
present.
6289. Then you only suppose that some of them may have been
able to pay up their debt in the course of the following year?-I
know they did so; and I might take myself as a specimen of that.
6290. But you said that you have not required any advance for
many years back?-Certainly.
6291. Do you think that within the last ten or fifteen years there
have been many men who have required to be carried through in
that way?-I don't know. Probably there may have been, but I
have not been requiring that for myself.
6292. But you have been speaking about your neighbours, and you
say it is an altered time with them?-It is, even within the time
you have mentioned.
6293. Do you think some of them, within that time, may not have
been able to pay their arrears in the course of next season?-I
cannot exactly say.
6294. But you have said so?-Well, it would rather appear so.
6295. You think they may have been so much in debt, that it
required more than one year for them to pay it up?-It is very
probable that may have been the case.
6296. Have you any boys engaged on the beach?-No.
6297. Do any of your family knit?-Yes; they are always working
away at it.
6298. Where do they sell their hosiery?-At different shops.
6299. Do they go to Lerwick with it?-Sometimes.
6300. Are they paid for it in goods?-I don't know. I don't inquire
much about it.
6301. Have they got accounts of their own?-Yes; they keep their
own accounts.
6302. Do they help you to keep the family?-I am not requiring it.
I can keep my wife and myself; and my two daughters knit to
provide themselves with what they want. I never inquire whether
they get part cash for what they sell or knit.
6303. Do they clothe themselves by their own knitting?-Yes.
6304. Do they never help you to buy provisions for the family at
all?-They work very hard at it, but I do not require them to bring
any food into the house. I can buy it myself.
6305. Did anybody tell you to come here to-day?-No; I came to
Hillswick on an errand to Mr. Anderson's shop, and I heard that
the meeting was to take place to-day. Mr. Sutherland also told me
about it.
6306. When did you hear about it first?-I can't exactly say. I
heard about it some time in the course of yesterday, but I cannot
say who told me. I told then that there was to be a meeting on
Thursday at the school-house.
6307. Do you not remember who told you?-No.
6308. Were you told about it at Stenness?-Yes; I was told about
it in the place where I live.
6309. But you don't remember who first mentioned it?-I do not.
6310. Are you sure you don't remember?-Yes; [Page 155] I can't
remember exactly who told me, for I just heard the story among
the public.
6311. Was that among the public at Stenness?-Yes.
6312. Was there not some one from Hillswick who brought the
news to you?-There may have been, for anything I know.
6313. Was it some of your own family who told you-No. I heard
it down at the station, where the boats come in from the sea.
6314. Was Mr. Sandison there?-Arthur Sandison was at Stenness
on Tuesday.
6315. Did you see him then?-I did. There were some affairs that
he and I had to manage, because he is Mr. Anderson's factor in
summer, and I have to do with curing fish for Mr. Anderson in
winter.
6316. Did Sandison tell you about the meeting?-No.
6317. Are you sure of that?-Yes.
6318. Did you not speak to him about it on Tuesday?-I don't
remember whether we said much about that, or anything about that
at all. There are various things that I may have exchanged words
about with him which I don't remember.
6319. Then you may have been speaking to him about it on
Tuesday?-No; I had not heard any word about it on Tuesday.
6320. Are you able to say that Sandison did not speak to you about
it on Tuesday?-I don't recollect him speaking about it at all.
6321. Do you swear that you did not speak to Sandison on Tuesday
about this meeting?-I would not be safe to answer, because my
memory might not hold good. Recollection gets short when age
comes on, and I would not care for swearing to that.
6322. You say it was only yesterday that you heard about the
meeting?-Yes.
6323. Can you swear you did not hear of it before yesterday?-I
swear that I don't recollect of hearing about it before yesterday.
6324. Is it possible you may have been speaking to Sandison about
it?-I may have done so; but if I did, I have completely forgotten
about it.
6325. Do any of your family work at kelp?-Yes; my daughters
work at it.
6326. What do they get for that?-I suppose the price varies.
6327. Do they gather the sea-weed and make the kelp themselves,
and sell it?-Yes.
6328. What do they get for it per cwt.?-I cannot tell. I think the
price is £4 or £4, 10s. per ton; but I am not very sure.
6329. Do you know how that is paid to them?-They are paid in
cash if they ask for it.
6330. But they have accounts of their own?-Yes.
6331. Who do they sell it to?-I think they sell it to Mr. Anderson.
6332. And it will be settled for when they settle their accounts?-I
believe so.
6333. Do you know if there is any difference in the price of kelp,
according as it is paid in goods or in cash?-I don't know, for I
have never inquired about that.
6334. You said that a number of your neighbours had been carried
through by the fish-merchant when they were in arrear from the
badness of the season, and you also said that you knew a great
number who had been so carried through?-Yes, a good many.
6335. Have you any objection to tell me their names?-I don't
know whether I could call their names to recollection.
6336. I asked you to tell me their names in private, and you
objected to do so; but I now ask you upon your oath whether you
remember the names of any such men?-I don't think I could tell
any of their names now. I would know their names quite well at
the time when they were getting what they were requiring, but I
cannot name any of them now.
6337. Is that because you don't remember them?-Yes.
Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, Mrs. MARY HUGHSON,
examined.
6338. Are you the wife of Andrew Hughson, a fisherman and
tenant here?-Yes; he is a tenant to Mr. Gifford on the Busta
estate.
6339. Where do you live?-At Hillswick.
6340. Is your husband a fisherman?-He is a day labourer for the
most part, and does land-work. He has been at the fishing, but not
lately.
6341. Is he too old to go to the fishing now?-No; but he has been
used to work on the land.
6342. Are you in the habit of knitting?-Very little.
6343. Do you knit any at all?-I knit for the family.
6344. Don't you sell your hosiery?-I have not sold much here. It
is not very long since we came from Lerwick.
6345. Did you use to sell it there?-Sometimes.
6346. Were you always paid for it in goods?-Yes.
6347. Did you want to get cash for it?-No, I never asked cash.
6348. Do any of your daughters knit hosiery here?-Yes; and they
sell it in Lerwick, as they were born there.
6349. Do they always go to Lerwick with it?-No; they sometimes
sell it to Mr. Anderson at Hillswick.
6350. Do they always get goods for it?-Yes.
6351. Do they want cash?-They don't ask for it; it is not the
custom.
6352. Are they quite content to take the price in the goods they
want?-I suppose so.
6353. Do they also work at kelp?-Yes, in some way, we all work
at kelp.
6354. How do you sell it?-We get 4s. 6d. per cwt. for it from Mr.
Anderson.
6355. How are you paid for it?-We are paid in whatever we may
ask for, in meal or tea, or goods of any kind.
6356. The way in which the kelp trade is carried on is, that you
gather the kelp yourselves, and burn it and sell it?-Yes.
6357. Have you to pay for the privilege of gathering it?-We pay
nothing.
6358. Can you sell it to any person you like?-There is no person
buying it here except Mr. Anderson.
6359. How do you settle about your kelp? Have you an account in
Mr. Anderson's books?-We get what we want, and pay for these
goods with the kelp, and then anything we take out additional goes
into the account for another year.
6360. Do you only settle once a year?-Yes.
6361. Do you always get 4s. 6d. a cwt. for it?-Yes; I got 5s. per
cwt. some years ago, but the price is lower now.
6362. How long, in the course of the year, do you work at the
kelp?-We work at it while the season is dry-from Whitsunday
till the 1st August.
6363. During that time how many cwts. will you and your
daughters gather?-Some years less, and some years more.
We will sometimes have about £2 worth.
6364. That will be about half a ton?-Yes.
6365. Did you take the price of that in goods?-We took some part
of it in clothes, and some part in meal or tea, or just what we
required of money articles.
6366. What do you mean by money articles?-Groceries, or meal
or bread, or anything of that kind.
6367. Why do you call them money articles?-Because it is not
often that they are got for hosiery or anything of that sort.
6368. Is it a common way of speaking here, to call groceries
money articles because they are not given for hosiery?-Tea is
sometimes given for hosiery, and bread and meal. They will
give a certain quantity of these money articles for hosiery if they
are asked for.
6369. Is there a less price given for the hosiery if it is paid in
money, or in money articles?-I don't know; I never asked or
received money, for hosiery either here or elsewhere.
[Page 156]
6370. Is there a different price for kelp according as it is paid in
money or in goods?-I have heard it said that it is 4s. in money, or
4s. 6d. in goods.
6371. Have you always got the price of it in goods?-Yes.
6372. Did you never get money for your kelp at all?-No; I never
asked money, and I never got it.
6373. When is the kelp settled for?-We settle for it when we sell
it.
6374. Do you sell it all in a lump at the end, or at different times
during the season?-Perhaps we sell it every time we burn it, and
we settle for it then.
6375. Do you go to the shop and say how much you have?-Yes.
We tell the merchant how much we have, and he takes us in and
pays us for it then.
6376. Is there anything marked into a book about it?-Nothing.
We get payment for it when we sell it. If we are due anything to
the merchant, he takes it off the price, and then we get the balance
in whatever way we want.
6377. Do you take the whole value of it at the same time?-
Sometimes, and sometimes not.
6378. How do you know whether you are due anything at the
time?-We ascertain that from the books.
6379. Is there an account in your name in Mr. Anderson's
books?-Yes; and if there is anything over at the end of the
season, we get it.
6380. Is it paid to you in cash at the end of the season?-Yes; if
there is anything due at the end of the season, we get it in cash.
6381. Have you ever got any cash from him at the end of the
season?-I never asked it, because I just cleared off with him;
and perhaps there was nothing due to me.
6382. Do you think you would be any better if you were paid in
cash?-I don't know. I am getting so far on in years, that it is not
much cash I would have to get now.
6383. Do you and your daughters agree to keep the same
account?-Yes; the account is generally in my name.
6384. Who does your husband work for?-He has been at the
fishing, and he has been doing land-work for different people. He
was working last summer to an Orkney man, who was over here
at the building of the church.
6385. Does he work at farm-work, or how?-He just works at
day-work, or lime-work, or anything he can get.
6386. Is he a stone-mason?-He is just a day labourer; he is not a
mason.
6387. Do you keep an account at the shop at Hillswick for all your
provisions and all the soft goods you want?-I have no account
there just now.
6388. But you say that you are paid for your kelp by being settled
with in an account?-Yes; we are paid off then for what is due to
us, and there is no other account kept until the following year.
6389. You say you have never asked to be paid in money: is it all
the same to you whether you are paid in money or in goods?-It is
all the same.
6390. Do you swear that it is all the same to you?-It has been the
custom to pay in goods, and there is no other place we could go to
where we could get the money, besides if we got the money, we
would just give it back into the shop that was handiest.
6391. Did you tell any person that you were afraid to come here
today?-No, I was not afraid to come.
6392. Did you get any advice from any person about speaking the
truth when you came here?-No.
6393. Are you sure about that?-I came to speak the truth when I
swore to do it.
6394. But before you came, did you say anything to any one about
being afraid to come, and were you advised to speak the truth?-I
know to speak the truth.
6395. But did you say anything to any person about being afraid to
come here?-I cannot recollect. I said to Mr. Sutherland that I
wondered there were no other women asked to come besides me
because there are plenty in the place. Mr. Sutherland asked me if I
got money for anything; and I said I never did, and that I never
asked it either for knitting or for kelp. I told him that if I had
asked it I did not know what might have been done; but I never
did ask it, and Mr. Anderson knows himself that I never asked
money for knitting. But when I was asked to come here, I was
nowise afraid to come and tell the truth.
6396. Did you say to any one that you did not like to come, for fear
of the merchant?-No, I did not say I was afraid for the merchant.
6397. What did you say about the merchant?-I said I did not
know why other people should not come as well as me, and that I
wondered why no other women were summoned but myself.
6398. Did Mr. Sutherland advise you to speak the truth when you
come, and not be afraid?-I spoke to Mr. Sutherland, and told him
I did not know where I had to come.
6399. Did Mr. Anderson speak to you about coming here this
morning? Did you see him to-day?-Yes, I saw him, and I spoke
to him here.
6400. What did he say to you?-Mr. Anderson told me to bring
my pass-book, whatever state it was in; but it has not been used for
some years.
6401. Was that it pass-book for the kelp?-Yes, it was it
pass-book for the goods that were used for the family.
6402. Had you a pass-book some years ago?-Yes; it is in the
house.
6403. But you don't enter your purchases in that pass-book
now?-No.
6404. Do you generally buy what you want at Mr. Anderson's
shop?-Yes.
6405. What do you buy there?-Meal or tea, or whatever I am
needing.
6406. How do you pay for that? Do you pay in money?-
Sometimes in money and sometimes in knitted things or in work
which my husband does.
6407. Does your husband work for Mr. Anderson?-Sometimes.
6408. When he works a day's work to him, does he get his money
for it, or is it put down in the account?-It is put down in the
account.
6409. But you said you had no account?-Well, I have no account.
6410. Has your husband an account?-Yes; when I said I had no
account, I meant that I had no account for kelp and hosiery, but
there is an account in my husband's name.
6411. And when he works for Mr. Anderson, his day's work is put
down in the account?-Yes.
6412. What does he work at?-Stone-work, or any other kind of
house-building.
6413. Is that account settled in money or goods?-In goods. I
don't believe he has ready money to get; he is due something.
6414. Is he generally due something?-Yes; he has been due
something for a while.
6415. Is it generally for Mr. Anderson that he works?-Only
sometimes.
6416. When he works for other people, is he paid in money?-
Yes; when he works for Mr. Sutherland, or any man who has no
shop, he gets ready money.
6417. But if he works for any one who has a shop, is he paid in
goods?-He does not work for any one who has a shop, except Mr.
Anderson.
6418. And he is not paid in money for that because he is due Mr.
Anderson an account?-His work is put into the account, and he
gets what he needs for the house.
6419. How many years has he been in that position?-I cannot say;
I have not been settling for him.
6420. Has he been working in this neighbourhood for a number of
years?-Yes; we came here from Lerwick about 1858.
6421. When did you begin to get into debt?-I cannot say, because
my husband was at the fishing then.
6422 Is it long since he got into debt?-It is some years; but I
cannot say how many, because I have not been settling his
account.
[Page 157]
6423. Is his account settled every year?-Yes.
6424. At what time?-About Martinmas or the 1st November, just
at the time when the fishermen are settled with.
6425. Do you know that there is generally a balance against your
husband at the end of the year?-Yes.
6426. How much will that balance be?-I cannot say.
6427. Although there is that balance, you can still get what you
want from the shop in the way of provisions or clothing?-Yes;
when he is working for Mr. Anderson.
6428. Is he at liberty to work for any person here who will give
him the highest wage?-Yes.
6429. There is no interference with him in respect to that?-No.
6430. Then it was your husband's pass-book that Mr. Anderson
referred to when you came here today?-Yes; I told him I did not
have it, but he said I should have brought it.
6431. But it is a good many years since anything was put into that
pass-book?-It is.
6432. Is it your fault that the things were not entered?-He was
not working for Mr. Anderson for some time about the time when
the book was stopped. We were buying our meal and other things
at some other place and we were not keeping regular accounts
then.
6433. Why did you not put your things into the pass-book
when you began again to deal at Hillswick? Could you not be
bothered?-I don't know.
6434. Did you ask for a pass-book then?-No.
6435. Is your husband here?-No; he is off fishing at the long lines
to-day.
6436. Is he one of a boat's crew there?-Yes.
6437. How many are there in that boat's crew?-I think there are
four.
6438. Have they gone to fish on their own account?-Yes; they are
just trying to get some fish for the house.
6439. He is not going to sell them?-No; he has not been in the
habit of doing that.
6440. Are all the fish he catches in winter used for your own
house?-Yes.
Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, EUPHEMIA PETERSON,
examined.
6441. Do you live at Hillswick with your father and mother?-
Yes.
6442. Is your father a fisherman?-Yes.
6443. Has he a bit of land?-Yes.
6444. Do you sometimes knit?-Yes; it is not very much I knit;
the most of it is for my father and brother.
6445. Do you sometimes sell your knitting?-Sometimes.
6446. Where do you sell it?-At a place called Hillyard, on the
other side of Roeness Hill, to Laurence Smith.
6447. How are you paid for it?-I get perhaps 16d. or 18d. for a
spencer.
6448. Do you get that in money?-No; in goods.
6449. What kind of goods?-Cotton.
6450. How many spencers will you take to Mr. Smith at a time?-
Sometimes I only take one. I had three spencers with me the last
time I went, at 16d. apiece.
6451. That was 4s. What did you get for that?-I bought 41/2 yards
of white cotton; nothing else.
6452. Was that all you were to get for the 4s., or are you to go
back again?-No; I just got it all in cotton.
6453. You had not an account there?-No.
6454. Was it common white cotton you got?-Yes.
6455. Do you remember what was the price of it per yard?-I
don't remember.
6456. How long is that ago?-It is about three weeks ago, or
perhaps more.
6457. Was the cotton a thing which you wanted at the time?-Yes.
6458. What did you do with it?-I made petticoats and other
things with it.
6459. Was it fine cotton?-It was sheeting cotton.
6460. Do you never get money for your knitting at any time?-No;
I never asked money for it.
6461. Do you knit with your own worsted?-Yes.
6462. Do you make the worsted yourself out of the wool of your
own sheep?-Yes.
6463. Do you work at kelp?-I have been at it three times, but I
am not working at it now.
6464. Did you sell the kelp yourself?-No. I wrought last with
Maria Sandison, and we got 4s. 6d. a cwt. for it from Mr.
Anderson.
6465. Were you paid by Mr. Anderson for the kelp you had made,
or did Maria Sandison get the money for you?-She got it.
6466. Then you don't know how the price was settled?-No.
6467. Did you get money for your share of it?-Yes. I got 2s. 6d.
one time; at another time I got 3s.; and I don't recollect what I got
the other time.
6468. Did you get that money from Maria?-I got a line for it. I
did not get any money, but I got goods for the line.
6469. I thought you said you got money?-They will give money if
we ask for it, but I did not ask for the money.
6470. What did you ask for?-I took goods for it-cotton.
6471. Did you want the cotton?-Yes.
6472. Did you get the money from Maria Sandison?-No. She
gave me a note, and I took it to the merchant.
6473. What was the note?-Just a bit of paper with some writing
put down upon it.
6474. Was it signed by anybody?-It would be signed by the
shopkeeper.
6475. And you took that to the shop and got what you wanted?-
Yes.
6476. How much did you get?-I don't remember.
6477. How long ago is that?-I don't remember.
6478. Did you ever get any money for your kelp at all?-I never
got any money; I never asked it.
6479. Why do you say that you never asked it?-Because I was
just needing the cotton, and I took it.
6480. But why do you say that you never asked for it? Do you
mean that you would have got it if you had asked?-Yes; I might
have got it.
6481. How do you know?-There are some who have got it when
they asked for it, but I never did.
6482. Do most of the women get money for their kelp?-I cannot
say.
6483. What does your father do with his eggs?-He sells them.
6484. Have you a great quantity of eggs to sell?-Yes; in summer
we have a good many.
6485. How many will you have in a week?-I cannot say.
6486. Do you generally take them to sell?-Sometimes.
6487. How many will you take at a time?-Perhaps a dozen or half
a dozen.
6488. What do you get for them?-We sometimes get 6d. a dozen,
but we have got 7d. We got that in the past summer.
6489. Do you get money for that?-We never take it in money; we
just take in goods.
6490. Is that the way all the people hereabout do with their
eggs?-I think it is the way that most of them do with them.
6491. Where do you take them to?-Sometimes to Mr.
Anderson's, and sometimes to Laurence Smith's.
6492. Is Smith's farther away than Anderson's?-Yes; it is about
two miles from us.,
6493. Do you get the same price from both places?-I got a
halfpenny more from Laurence Smith.
6494. But the price was paid to you at both places in goods?-Yes.
6495. What kind of goods do you get for your eggs?-I cannot say;
sometimes we take tea.
[Page 158]
6496. Do you just get the goods when you go, or is there an
account kept?-We just get them when we go. We have no
account at all.
6497. Is your father here to-day?-Yes.
Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, JOHN ANDERSON,
examined.
6498. You are a merchant and fish-curer in Hillswick?-I am.
6499. And you are the proprietor of the estate of Ollaberry?-No; I
am only tacksman.
6500. Is Ollaberry in Northmavine parish?-Yes.
6501. Your brother, I understand, is proprietor of that estate?-
Yes.
6502. Do you carry on business at Hillswick under a firm or in
your own name?-In my own name.
6503. I presume the way in which you arrange for the payment of
your fishermen is similar to that which prevails in other parts of
Shetland-viz. that the fisherman engages to fish for you for the
season at the summer fishing, and to receive payment for his fish
in winter at the price then current after the sales have been made?
-Yes.
6504. Is it the case also that the way in which you keep accounts
with your fishermen is that a ledger account is opened in name of
each man, in which the entries on one side consist of advances
made to him for the purpose of outfit and lines, boat-hire when the
boat is not his own, or for the price of the boat if he is buying it by
instalments?-Yes.
6505. And on the other side is entered the price of his fish, and
anything else that may be due to him by you?-Yes.
6506. Is there any further explanation you desire to make about the
way in which these arrangements entered into and carried out
between you and your fishermen?-I think that is all, except the
inducement I have held out to fishermen to buy their own boats
and lines. My practice for several years past has been that when
they bought their own boats and lines, and were free of debt, I
allowed them 6d. a cwt. extra on their fish.
6507. That is to say, that a fisherman who hires his boat, or one
who is paying up the price of his boat by instalments, or who is in
debt, is paid for his fish 6d. a cwt. less than one who is not in your
books for boat-hire or for the price of his boat?-Yes.
6508. Is that intended as an inducement to a man to get clear of his
boat-hire or of debts of that sort?-Yes, it was so intended by me.
6509. How long has that system been in operation?-I think since
1864.
6510. Have many of the fishermen got clear of their debts in
consequence of that inducement, so far as you can judge by your
experience?-I think so.
6511. You think that system has had a beneficial effect?-I think
so, judging from the diminution of the debts. I have taken the last
four years, and struck an average with regard to that.
6512. You have made a calculation applying to the last four years,
showing what?-Showing the degree in which the fishermen have
reduced their debts. I don't have that calculation with me here.
6513. Was it made for your own private use?-Yes. I wanted to
see whether I was correct in giving the fishermen that advantage,
and I found that the average amount to which the fishermen were
in debt was £13 each year.
6514. Was that an average only of those who were in debt?-Yes.
6515. And your calculation showed that the average debt of each
fisherman was £13 this year?-Not this year, but taking the
average for four years.
6516. I understood it was entered into for the purpose of
comparison with the period before the system you have now
mentioned was introduced?-No. The calculation I made was
for the purpose of satisfying myself whether I was correct in
giving that 6d. per cwt. in advance extra.
6517. Then do you find that the fishermen who are in your debt
now were indebted to you to the amount of £13 on an average?-
Yes.
6518. Are you of opinion that that is a less amount of debt per man
than existed before that system introduced?-I am.
6519. Did you enter into any calculation over period of years
before the introduction of the system, in order to compare it with
the state of matters during the last four years, or have you made
that comparison just from your general knowledge?-Just from my
general knowledge. I did not make the calculation so accurately
for the previous period as for the last four years.
6520. But you are clearly of opinion that the amount of debt before
that system was introduced was greater than it is now?-I am
clearly of that opinion.
6521. How many of the men do you calculate are now in your debt
to that average extent?-I am not able to answer that question
exactly.
6522. Can you not give an approximation to the number?-I am
afraid not.
6523. How many men do you employ altogether in the ling and
cod fishing in summer?-I have no cod fishing,-only ling fishing,
in which I think I employ about 120 or 130 men.
6524. Is that at Hillswick, or at all your stations?-At Hillswick.
6525. But you have stations at other places?-Hillswick is the
business place, but we have fishing stations at different places-at
Roeness Voe, Hillyard, Hamnavoe, and Stenness.
6526. Have you none at Ollaberry?-Only in winter time. We get
some fish there in winter-principally small fish, cod, and some
ling.
6527. You said that you don't send men to the cod fishing?-No.
6528. How do you distinguish between the cod fishing proper and
the cod which you get in winter?-There are different names for
the different kinds of fishing. The Faroe fishing is a different thing
from the home fishing.
6529. But some people subdivide the summer fishing into more
than one kind?-There is cod fished for in the voes near the coast
during the winter, but they are generally a smaller size than the
Faroe cod.
6530. Is that what you call the winter fishing?-Yes.
6531. Was that what you spoke of just now when you said you did
not send men to the cod fishing?-I meant I did not send men to
the Faroe fishing.
6532. Then by the ling fishing you mean the summer fishing?-
Yes.
6533. And in that the men catch cod and tusk?-Very few; and
what they get are thin and of an inferior quality.
6534. But ling is the staple fish that is caught at that time?-Yes.
6535. Your accounts with your men are settled annually in
November or December?-Yes.
6536. Do you find that the majority of your men have then a cash
balance to receive, or are they in arrear?-I am afraid I must
acknowledge that the majority of them are in arrear.
6537. Do you think the system of paying at such a long interval of
time has any effect in causing the men to be so deeply in your
debt?-I don't think so.
6538. Do you think it is their own choice or their own habits that is
the occasion of it?-I daresay there are various causes that
contribute to it. There may be some improvidence among them;
there may be afflictions among them of various kinds. There may
be men getting married, and getting families; and it is a sore time
with them when their children are small.
6539. Have you ever considered whether a system of shorter
payments could be introduced in your business which might
encourage habits of economy and foresight, and lead the men to
keep out of debt?-I have given that point some careful
consideration.
6540. You have already said that you introduced a [Page 159]
system of giving a premium to your men who were free of debt?-
Yes.
6541. But has any other plan for bringing about the end occurred
to you?-I don't think there is any other.
6542. Are you aware that the men sometimes express a wish that
they should know the price of fish earlier in the season than is the
case at present?-Yes. That has been expressed to me sometimes
by the men themselves.
6543. Do you think that would have any beneficial effect?-I
don't think it. In the winter fishing we have paid for the fish as
soon as the men came on shore with them, but I was not aware that
they saved any of that cash in consequence of receiving it at once,
any more than they would have done if it had been put to account.
6544. Is the winter fishing generally paid in cash?-Yes if the men
require it.
6545. Is it more commonly paid for in cash at the time of delivery
than is the case in the other fisheries?-The men have the choice
of getting cash or goods, just as they like, for their winter fish.
6546. I rather understand they have the choice of getting cash or
goods in the other fishings as well at any time if they like: is not
that so?-I think not. I think they would not get cash unless they
were clear men, or unless we had good cause to know that they
were really in necessity for something.
6547. But during the course of the summer fishing are they
allowed advances in goods as they require them?-Yes.
6548. Even though they should be to some extent in your debt?-
Yes.
6549. If a man is clear at the end of a season, and is fishing for you
during the following season, is it usual to give him advances in
cash to account of his fishing as often as they are asked?-Yes.
6550. Is it ever the case that a man who is in that position gets
some payents in cash throughout the season, and is paid the whole
balance in cash at the end, and has no account at your shop at
all?-I think not. I have never been aware of any case of that
kind.
6551. Is that because the man necessarily has to apply to you for
an outfit for the fishing at the beginning of the year, such as lines
or boats; or is it because he may have an account for necessaries to
his family?-He is not obliged to get his outfit or his necessaries
from me unless he likes. There is no obligation upon him.
6552. But, in point of fact, he generally does get an outfit from
you?-Yes; we are always glad to get them to buy an outfit from
us.
6553. Whether he gets a boat or not, I suppose the general rule is
that he takes his outfit from you?-Yes; that is the general
practice.
6554. Is a man expected to do that when he is engaged to fish for
you?-I certainly would expect it but he is under no obligation
whatever.
6555. If a man were engaging with you to fish for the summer, and
getting his outfit elsewhere, say at Lerwick, would that make any
difference in the way in which you would deal with him
afterwards?-None whatever.
6556. Would he be just as likely to get an engagement from you in
the following year, and as good a price for his fish?-Yes.
6557. I understand you have the largest shop in this parish?-I am
scarcely able to answer that, but I suppose it is the largest in this
district. Messrs. Hay & Co., at North Roe have an extensive
business also.
6558. Is North Roe as populous a district as Hillswick?-Yes.
6559. Then there is the shop of Mr. Adie at Voe?-Yes; that is a
larger business than mine.
6560. And Pole, Hoseason, & Co. at Mossbank?-Yes.
6561. Do these shops rank in size along with yours?-Yes; and
Hay & Co.'s shop at North Roe.
6562. But there are smaller shops throughout the country not kept
by fish-curers?-Yes. Mr. Peter Robertson, Sullem, and Mr.
Gilbert Nicholson, Ollaberry, are not fish-curers. Mr. Nicholson
has been engaged in that business to, but not on his own account.
6563. Do these shopkeepers sometimes buy fish?-I think so. I
think Mr. Nicholson buys cured fish in the winter, near the sea.
6564. Is it a common opinion that there is a good deal of
smuggling of fish by fishermen during the fishing season?-I
believe it is.
6565. Is that done for the purpose of getting payment in ready
money; or is the inducement for it, that they get a larger price by
disposing of their fish, in that way?-I don't think the payment of
ready money is the inducement, because for many years past it has
been my practice to send out money to the factor, with which to
pay the men for whatever fish they wanted to sell,-that is to say,
to clear any little bits of debt they had to pay at the station.
6566. But the men that you spoke of are bound by their
engagement at the beginning of the year to deliver all their fish
to you?-That is an understood thing, I believe; but I don't think
it has ever been acted upon.
6567. Are they at liberty to sell their fish to others?-They
generally take that liberty.
6568. So that only those fish go into the account which are
weighed by your factor?-Yes.
6569. Do your factors at these fishing stations pay ready money for
any large quantity of fish that is delivered to them?-I don't think
there are any large quantities paid for in ready money. I believe
the men generally give fish in that way to procure supplies.
Perhaps they might think my goods were not equal to Mr. Adie's
or those of other merchants, and they might give a few fish in that
way to these merchants in order to get money with which to clear
off their little bits of accounts there.
6570. That is to say, a man fishing for Mr. Adie might sell a few
fish to your factor in that way, or one of your men might sell to
Mr. Adie just in the same way, in order to get a little money for his
present needs?-Yes.
6571. Can you give me any idea from your books to what extent
that sort of ready-money payment goes on during the summer
season?-I could scarcely say. I should think that perhaps £5 or
£6 would cover the whole of that for the entire season, because
there are some of the men fishing to me who will ask the factor to
give them a pound in cash or so just at the end of the season.
6572. Therefore they don't require to smuggle the fish so much as
one might suppose?-No.
6573. Do you consider that the tenants on the Ollaberry estate are
obliged by the terms of their leases to fish to you only?-I do not;
although I think I have it in my power to compel them to fish if I
wished to do so.
6574. Do you think you have that in your power by the terms of
their leases?-I think there is only man who has a lease at present.
6575. Or by the terms of the contract under which they sit on the
land?-I think that is understood.
6576. That is a part of their bargain?-It is not part of their
bargain, but I think it is understood.
6577. When a man is in your debt in the way you have spoken of,
do you think he has a stronger inducement to deal at your shop
for the goods he requires, and to agree to fish for you during the
following season, than another man who is not in debt?-I am not
very sure about that.
6578. I suppose you would consider it fair that man who is in your
debt should deliver his fish to you rather than to another, in order
that he might pay off your debt?-Certainly.
6579. And also that he should take his supplies from your shop, so
far as necessary?-Yes, I would expect that.
6580. Is it also the feeling among the men generally, that they are
inclined to deal with a person who has advanced them money or
goods in a bad season? [Page 160]-I think they would have no
objection to deal in that way.
6581. You I would probably have rather to keep them within limits
in their dealing, for fear they should get too much?-Yes, I think
that is quite right.
6582. Perhaps they have no credit elsewhere?-I daresay they
might have credit elsewhere too. Probably they might have other
things, such as produce of different kinds from their farms with
which to clear off their small accounts in other quarters, and which
might not come my way.
6583. Do you not deal considerably in farm produce yourself?-
Yes; in cattle and other things.
6584. Do you send them south?-Yes.
6585. Do you purchase these generally for cash, or do your
purchases in that way enter the accounts of the men who fish
for you?-That just depends on the way the men want them. I
make a practice of purchasing all stock for cash; but if they
wanted it entered in their accounts, I do so.
6586. Are these purchases generally made at periodical sales?-
Yes, we have two sales in the year at Ollaberry; but I purchase a
good many cattle and horses just at any place where I can get them
through the parish.
6587. Suppose you made purchases of that kind from a man who
owed you a certain amount in your books, would these purchases
enter your books to his credit, or would they be paid in cash?-
That will depend upon our bargain. If a man said to me, I have a
cow to sell, and one part of the price I want to go to pay my rent,
and the other part I want put into my account, I would do that for
him. I have done that frequently, although the man was in my
debt.
6588. You said there were 120 fishermen in your books at
Hillswick?-That was a mere random guess; I could not speak
to it positively.
6589. Have you a number of men in your books at other places?-
Yes, at Ollaberry; but that shop is under a different firm Anderson
& Co.
6590. Is that shop kept by Mr. Irvine?-Yes.
6591. Do you take the principal oversight of the business there?-I
do.
6592. Then, when you spoke of the fishermen on the Ollaberry
estate being obliged to fish to you, I suppose you meant that they
were bound to fish for that firm?-Yes.
6593. Is there any other station besides Ollaberry where you have a
shop and fishermen upon your books?-No other station, except
the fishing stations I have already mentioned.
6594. These are not permanent establishments, but are only kept
up for the summer season?-There is a man who takes winter fish
at Stenness and at Hamnavoe.
6595. But there are not so many men residing there?-No.
6596. And it is only from those who reside on the spot there that
you receive fish in winter?-Yes.
6597. How many men may be engaged in the fishing at the
Ollaberry station, and who are entered in your books as employed
by you?-Probably between 50 and 60.
6598. Then you may have about 300 fishermen the summer
fishing, including the other stations you have mentioned?-I
think scarcely so many.
6599. One of the books which you have produced here is a
woman's book?-Yes.
6600. That has relation to hosiery and kelp?-Yes.
6601. You have not brought any books relating to the fishing
business, but I suppose you will be ready to show them if you
are asked?-Certainly.
6602. In what way do you engage your beach boys?-Some of
them are engaged about December, but perhaps it is the spring
before we get them all. We engage them for an annual fee,-that
is to say, a fee for three months in summer, or for summer and
harvest. The rates we pay them vary from about 45s. to £10 for
time summer and harvest.
6603. Do those to whom you pay £10 have charge of the curing?-
Yes; I have given the whole range.
6604. There are two classes of them-the beach-boys proper, and
the men who are skilled at the work?-Yes; and the man who has
charge of the curing.
6605. Are both those classes settled with at the end of the year?-
Yes.
6606. Do the men employed in the curing get payment before the
end of the year?-No.
6607. I believe at some establishments the men employed are paid
by weekly wages?-I am not aware of that.
6608. Do you open an account with them in the same way as with
the other people employed by you?-Yes.
6609. And if they want supplies they get them at your shop?-Yes.
6610. Do you find that the amount of debt upon these accounts
is greater or less than in the case of ordinary fishermen?-We
generally strive not to allow them to get into debt.
6611. I don't mean the amount of debt above their salary, but the
amount of debt they incur for furnishings in the course of the year:
is that greater or less than the amount due to them for their fee?-I
think it is generally less, taking the whole cases together. There
may be some cases where they fall behind little, but there are
others again who have money to get.
6612. Have they generally a considerable balance to receive in
money at the end of the year?-No; when boy has paid for his
clothes and provisions, he will not have very much to receive.
6613. Does a beach boy generally require an outfit of clothing at
the beginning?-Yes.
6614. Is it the sons of your fishermen whom you generally employ
as beach boys?-Very often, but not necessarily; I just engage any
one I can get.
6615. Is there a sufficient supply of them?-There has always
been hitherto.
6616. When a boy who is engaged for the first year gets more
goods than the amount of his fee, does he usually engage to work
for you in the same employment next year?-No.
6617. You are aware, I suppose that that has been alleged as the
commencement of the system of debt which is said to prevail in
Shetland?-I am perfectly aware of that.
6618. Is it not consistent with your experience that a boy who
overdraws his account in that way continues to serve you as a
beach boy?-I am sorry to say it is not, because sometimes he
goes elsewhere and leaves a balance standing.
6619. Is that a frequent thing?-I cannot say it is a very frequent
thing. I am glad to say that a great amount of honesty prevails
among the people generally.
6620. But is it not quite possible that he might go elsewhere and
pay his account to you from the wages he receives elsewhere?-It
is quite possible.
6621. Does that ever happen?-I think it has happened with me.
6622. Is a boy free to do that if he chooses?-Perfectly free.
6623. But, in point of fact, do the majority of boys who are so
engaged, and who overdraw their accounts during the first year,
remain in your service and work on until their account is paid
up?-I could scarcely say that that is so with the majority.
6624. But many of them do?-Many of them do, I think.
6625. Do they generally get further into your books, or do they
very often clear off their debt as they grow older and get larger
wages?-I think they often clear off their debt.
6626. Is it boy at the commencement likely, from his
circumstances, to incur a larger debt in the first year than
after a year or two, in proportion to his earnings?-I think not.
It depends, however, a great deal upon the parents. If a boy has
poor parents, who cannot afford to give him much clothing the
first year, to keep him warm, he must get these things from me
and perhaps he may fall behind, and yet be a very honest boy.
[Page 161]
6627. But what I was pointing at is this, that a boy may require
some outfit at the beginning of his career, and that he would
probably incur some debt?-That is true in some cases, but not in
all. A boy has been at the beach, and then he goes to the haaf;
perhaps the first year or two he will require to fall a little behind;
but if he is an honest, provident lad, he will soon clear off that.
6628. I understand you are a purchaser of kelp to some extent?-
Yes.
6629. Have you heard the evidence that has been given to-day on
that subject?-Yes.
6630. Was that evidence correct with regard to the manner in
which the kelp is paid for; or do you wish to make any correction
or addition to it?-It was perfectly correct, so far as the prices go.
4s. is the cash price, and 4s. 6d. is the goods price which we pay
for it.
6631. You pay for it either in cash or goods?-Yes.
6632. In which way do you make the greater part of your payments
for kelp?-I should think the greater part would be in goods
6633. Is that because you allow a higher price in goods, and the
people prefer taking that higher price?-Certainly. I have no
doubt they prefer it; otherwise they would not take it in that way
6634 I suppose if they got it in cash, they could not spend it very
easily anywhere else than in your own store?-There are various
shops round about where they could go to.
6635. Has that difference in the price of kelp been of long
continuance?-I think there has not been very much difference
on it for several years.
6636 But has it been long the practice to give an advanced price if
payment is taken in goods?-Yes; that has always been the case
during my experience. There have always been two prices, at least
at Hillswick.
6637. Have you any lease of the kelp shores?-Yes; all round from
Roeness Voe to Mavisgrind, on the Busta estate.
6638 Do you generally employ women, or allow any women to
gather kelp and burn it?-Yes; sometimes men do it also.
6639. But they are not at liberty to gather it for any one except
yourself?-No; that is quite understood.
6640. Have you to pay a lordship to the landlord for the kelp?-
Yes; 15s. per ton.
6641. You do something in the hosiery business also, and you have
brought your women's book to show how that business is
conducted?-Yes.
6642. Is the hosiery always paid in goods?-Not always.
6643. Have you any idea what amount is usually paid in cash?-
There is very little cash paid. Our general practice is, not to pay
cash for hosiery, but to give goods only.
6644. Is that because you consider you have a very small profit on
the hosiery?-Yes.
6645. What percentage do you calculate you have upon it?-I am
afraid my experience has been, that I have never had any profit
upon it. I have a profit on the goods, but not on the hosiery.
6646. Do you sell your hosiery generally to firms in Edinburgh or
Glasgow?-In London, Edinburgh, Glasgow, or any place where
we can get it sold.
6647. But you sell it direct to retail houses in these places, and not
through Lerwick merchants?-Yes.
6648. Do you employ women to knit for you, and give out wool to
them?-No.
6649. Yours is exclusively a purchase business?-Yes.
6650. Do you make a bargain for the article, whatever it may be,
on the understanding that the woman is to take goods for it?-Yes,
that is the understanding; but still I have paid cash in a good many
cases.
6651. If you want a very fine article for any particular purpose, do
you then sometimes agree to pay in cash?-Yes; if they wanted
cash for that, we would give it.
6652. Would you give a lower rate in cash than in goods?-Yes.
6653. What difference might there be?-I cannot tell.
6654. Will it be 2s. or 3s. in the pound?-I should think so.
6655. Are you often asked to give cash for hosiery?-No.
6656. Do the people who bring it generally want goods?-Yes,
they want goods; but the practice may arise too from their knowing
that the understanding is, that they only get goods for the hosiery.
6657. In the case of a woman not wanting the goods at the time, is
the article she brings entered to her account, or how is it dealt
with?-It is entered to her account.
6658. She has a ledger account of her own in your books?-Yes.
6659. Or a pass-book?-Yes; many of them have pass-books.
6660. When a young woman begins to knit in that way, and to deal
with you, does her account generally run on for a succession of
years?-Yes, very often.
6661. Is it in what you call the women's book that these accounts
are entered?-Yes.
6662. The goods supplied to them, I presume, are mostly soft
goods?-Yes; soft goods and groceries.
6663. Do you give the same value in groceries hosiery as in soft
goods?-No; not the same value.
6664. Is it part of the bargain at the beginning, whether the
payment is to be taken in groceries or in soft goods?-There is
no agreement of that sort.
6665. If a woman asks for groceries, what do you do?-We just
give them to her.
6666. But you say you don't give the same value in groceries as in
soft goods?-Not exactly the same value.
6667. Do you mean that when she gets groceries, you give them to
her at a higher price?-Yes.
6668. You add something to the price for which you would sell
them to a cash customer?-Yes.
6669. Or to a fisherman who keeps an account?-Yes.
6670. A fisherman keeping an account would get his groceries at a
different price from a seller of hosiery?-Yes.
6671. Do you not think that a cash system for all these matters
would be simpler and more convenient for all parties
concerned?-I don't see that there would be any gain to the
purchaser. Suppose a woman came in with hosiery of the value
of 5s. and got cash for it, she would require to go either to my
shop or to some other shop with it for her goods.
6672. But if she had cash, she might purchase her goods in
Lerwick or in Edinburgh, or possibly, if the trade were not in so
few hands, there might be a greater competition?-There might.
6673. And she could lay out her cash in the way that was most to
her own advantage?-That might be so; but then I would not give
her so much in cash for her hosiery, so that I don't see where her
gain would be.
6674. Is it mostly in provisions or in goods that the hosiery is
paid?-I should say that it is mostly in goods.
6675. Is the account which a woman, knitting in that way, runs up
entirely distinct from the account kept by her parents?-Quite
distinct.
6676. If she is living in family with her father, is he considered
responsible for her debt if the balance is against her?-No.
6677. Have you known any case of such a debt being enforced
against the father?-I am not aware of any, and I don't think it
could be enforced against him.
6678. Or demanded from him?-I don't think it could be
demanded either, legally. But the necessity does not exist for
girls buying groceries. These are generally bought by the father
or brothers; and the girl is left free to have her knitting to clothe
herself with. It is all the wages she gets.
6679. Show me the way in which the women's book is kept?-
[Produces women's book]
[Page 162]
6680. Each woman has her name entered there, and on one side of
the account are entered the articles which she gets?-Yes.