5773. What are you?-I am a fisherman at Stenness.
5774. How long have you been there?-For twenty years.
5775. Do you hold land there?-No.
5776. For whom do you fish?-For Mr. John Anderson, Hillswick.
5777. Do you go to the home fishing?-Yes.
5778. How far is Stenness from Hillswick?-About three miles. I
do not live at Stenness. I live in the south part of North Mavine, at
Manaster, about twelve miles from Stenness.
5779. Do you go to Stenness merely for the fishing?-Yes.
5780. Has Mr. Anderson a station there?-Yes; only in summer
and harvest.
5781. Has Mr. Adie also a station at Stenness?-Yes.
5782. How long have you fished for Mr. Anderson?-I have fished
for about seventeen years for Anderson Brothers. I fished for two
years at Ollaberry, and I fished for the time I have mentioned for
Anderson & Co.
5783. How are you paid for your fish? Do you get most of your
payment in goods or in cash at settling time?-I have got most in
cash.
5784. What is the time for settling?-The settling time
commences about 12th November, but for some years we have
generally settled from 26th to 27th November.
5785. Do you generally get your supplies during the fishing season
from Mr Anderson at Stenness?-Yes.
5786. Where is your family supplied? -I do not require much
supplies for my family, I can buy them at any shop in the
neighbourhood.
5787. Is there any shop at Manaster from which your family are
supplied?-No. The most part of my dealing has been with Mr.
Anderson, but I sometimes deal with Mr. Inkster at Brae, or any
shop I may have occasion to go to.
5788. Are your family generally supplied by Mr. Anderson at
Hillswick?-No; not as a general rule.
5789. Do you run an account with Mr. Anderson?-Yes.
5790. The two sides are balanced at the end of the year in
November, and you generally get a good part of your payment in
cash?-Yes.
5791. Do you get advances in money during the fishing season?-
Not unless I require them; but if require them, I can get them.
5792. Do you ask for them as a favour?-No.
5793. Do you want the money for some particular purpose when
you ask for it?-Yes.
5794. Do you always get it when you ask it?-Yes. I asked for £5
this year, about the beginning of the fishing, and I got it without
any difficulty.
5795. Do you also get any reasonable quantity of goods you
want?-Yes.
5796. Are the goods supplied to you at Stenness or at Hillswick?-
To a certain extent at Stenness, and for the greater part at
Hillswick.
5797. Do you go there for them?-Yes.
5798. Do you get both meal and clothing there?-Yes; I generally
get them there in the summer season for the fishing.
5799. Is the meal there of good quality and reasonable price?-
Yes; it is about the same as in other parts of the country.
5800. Would you have any advantage if you were going to another
dealer for your meal and clothing?-I don't think I could have any.
5801. You think you get your goods as good and as cheap as you
could desire?-Yes; they are as good and as cheap, there as at any
other part of the island.
5802. Or at Stenness?-Yes; it is not much clothing they have at
that place. It is only a temporary place, where they keep supplies
for the men during the fishing season.
5803. Then the way in which you deal is very much the same as
has been described by the witnesses from [Page 144]
Mossbank?-Yes; I cannot say there is much difference.
5804. You are not obliged to fish for any person in particular?-
No.
5805. You are a free man?-Yes.
5806. Do you generally get a balance in cash at the end of the
year?-Yes.
5807. Would you rather be paid all at once in cash?-Yes.
5808. Why don't you manage to get that done?-I can hardly say;
circumstances won't allow it. Sometimes the reason for it arises
from the way in which we are placed as a crew of men. The curers
will sometimes object to give it to one man in a boat's crew,
unless all the men were alike.
5809. And all the men would not wish it in cash?-There are not
many who would not wish for it in cash.
5810. Why could not the whole of the boat's crew get it in cash?-
Because some of the men have got behind, and they cannot
manage to go on throughout the rest of the season unless they get
supplies from the curer.
5811. They are in the curer's debt at the commencement?-Yes,
or perhaps they might be free men; but they have no opportunity of
supplying themselves with anything until the end of the fishing.
5812. Therefore, when there are one or two men in boat's crew
who are in that position, the curer objects to give cash payments to
the others?-I cannot say that, because I have not seen it asked by
the rest; but we have been conforming to the old practice that has
been going on of fishing to the curers, and being paid by them at
the end of the season.
5813. Do you want any change in the system?-The only change I
would want in the system would be to know what I was working
for. I should like to see a change in that respect.
5814. Would you like to have a price fixed at the beginning of the
year?-Yes; before I commenced to fish, because according to the
system we are proceeding on now we might go to the fishing, and
at the end of the fishing season or at the end of the year when they
settle with us, the merchants could pay us if they liked with 2s. a
cwt.
5815. Do they not come under an obligation to pay you what is the
current price at the end of the season?-It is not very often that we
enter into engagements of any kind. The men who are free men
generally fish for them, and they just fish upon an understanding
that they are to be paid the country currency.
5816. But it is understood that they are to be paid the country
currency?-Yes.
5817. And you would be entitled to get the country currency in any
case?-Yes; but if the fish were going down as low as they might
do, we would still only get the currency.
5818. Do you mean that the fish are sometimes higher earlier in
the season than they are at the end?-No; what I mean is that the
price varies very much. I have seen the price 4s. 6d. a cwt. in
some years, and 8s. in other years; and if the price were to go
below 4s. 6d., we would still only be paid according to that. But if
we had a fixed price before we went to sea at all, I think that
would be better. If there had been an average price fixed at the
commencement of the season while I have been fishing, I would
have been better satisfied in my own mind, because I would have
known what I was working for. In that way the curer would have
the advantage in some years, and in other years we might have the
advantage.
5819. Do you think there would be any difficulty in getting the
fishermen to stick to their bargain, if there was an arrangement of
that kind made at the beginning of the season?-I fear there might
be some difficulty with some of them.
5820. Some of them might think that if the price were to rise, they
ought to get the full value of that rise?-I don't think any
reasonable man could expect that, if he had made a fixed bargain
to be paid so much.
5821. But you say that some of the men would make a difficulty
about an arrangement of that kind; what do you mean by that?-
The only difficulty I see would be a want of means to supply what
they require in order to fit them for the fishing; but I think the
difficulty might be got over.
5822. Do you mean that the men would get under weigh even if
there was a fixed price?-I think so.
5823. When would you have that fixed price paid?-For my own
part I would not care although we were not paid until the same
time when we are paid at present. If it were paid weekly, I don't
know how that system might work.
5824. Do you think that all the fishermen would like to have a
price fixed in the beginning of the season?-I cannot say that the
whole would like to have it, but for my own part I should like it
and I know there are others besides me.
5825. Do you think there would be no difficulty in getting credit
from the fish-curer in the same way as at present, if there was a
fixed price?-No; the time for fixing the price might be the only
thing that would be altered, and the settlement would still remain
in November. We would then have a fixed price, and would know
what we were working for.
5826. You have no objection to the system of advances?-I cannot
say that I have.
5827. Are you quite at liberty to engage with any fish-curer you
please, and to engage to fish for him through the season?-Yes.
5828. Has every fisherman the same liberty?-Every one, so far as
I know, in this place.
5829. Even although he is in debt to the fish-curer?-No; in that
case the fish-curer expects him to fish for him until his debt is
paid. That is generally looked for, and in some instances I know
that they had to agree to do it.
5830. Do you know that they wished to fish for another curer,
but that they were obliged to fish to the man to whom they were
in debt?-They did not wish to fish to another curer, but that
fish-curer wished them to sign an agreement to fish to him for
the rising season.
5831. Did they agree to do that?-Yes. They did not say anything
about leaving the fish-curer, but only he wished them to agree.
5832. At what time of the year was that?-I have seen it done in
the month of November, and also in December.
5833. Did the fish-curer ask them to do that at a time when they
were wanting further advances of goods or money?-Yes,
advances of money.
5834. And it was in order that he might have some security for
these advances that he asked them to sign the agreement?-Yes.
5835. Is that a common thing?-I cannot say it is a common thing
in my experience, but I have known it done in two or three
different cases.
5836. Where was that?-At Hillswick.
5837. Have you known it done anywhere else?-No.
5838. Who were the men with whom it was done?-One man who
told me twice over about it was Hugh Phillip; it happened with
him in two different years.
5839. Has it happened with anybody else to your knowledge?-
No.
5840. Was it not quite fair that a man should be expected to work
for the curer until his debt was paid?-Yes.
5841. How does a man get into such an amount of debt as that?
Is it from dealing with the shop?-I cannot say that the shop
accounts are the cause of it, but it may arise from the
circumstances of his family. The fishing here is the only thing a
man has to depend upon, and sometimes, when it turns out bad
year, he perhaps has taken a greater amount of supply from the
shop for his family than usual.
5842. Was Phillip's account for shop goods?-It was for an
advance of rent.
5843. That was what he was taking the money for but was he in
debt before for shop goods?-Yes.
[Page 145]
Brae, January 10, 1872, WILLIAM GREEN, examined.
5844. You live at Sullem?-Yes.
5845. Are you a boat-skipper?-Yes.
5846. Where do you fish?-At Stenness.
5847. To whom do you deliver your fish?-To Mr. Adie.
5848. Have you done that long?-For six years.
5849. Do you settle with him at the end of the season?-Yes.
5850. Did you hear Mr Adie's evidence to-day?-I did.
5851. Did it give a fair account of the way in which the settlement
is made?-Yes.
5852. Are you one of the men who generally have a balance in
your favour at the end of the year?-Yes.
5853. Would it be an advantage to you to have a shorter
settlement?-I don't think so.
5854. Why?-Because we fish during the year and at the year's
end we settle with him.
5855. Are you quite content with the settlement as it is?-For my
part I am.
5856. Do you deal with Mr. Adie's store at Voe to any great
extent?-Yes.
5857. Do you take your goods from Voe to Sullem?-Yes.
5858. Is not that a long way to carry them?-It is.
5859. Could you not get them as good nearer home?-We could
get them much the same but not better. If I want goods, Mr. Adie
will either send them to me, or I may sometimes get the chance of
a boat coming my way.
5860. How far is it from Sullem to Voe?-Perhaps from eight to
nine miles.
5861. Are there shops nearer to you than that?-Yes; there is a
shop at Brae, and there is also a shop to the northward.
5862. Can you get goods as cheap at these shops as at Mr.
Adie's?-Much the same.
5863. Do you deal as much at these shops as at Mr. Adie's?-No; I
deal more with Mr. Adie than with them.
5864. Is that because you have an account with Mr. Adie?-Yes.
5865. Do you know whether there is any difference between the
prices in the shop at Voe and at other places?-I see no great
difference. I have tried other places; and if there was any
difference at all, it would be that I could get an article at Mr.
Adie's perhaps a little cheaper than at other places.
5866. Then the only disadvantage you have in dealing at Voe is the
distance?-Yes.
5867. And the only advantage you have is that you have an open
account there?-Yes.
5868. Is that the only reason why you deal there-The boat we fish
in belongs to Mr. Adie; we hire it from him.
5869. Is that any reason for dealing at Voe?-No but we fish to
Mr. Adie, and we get goods from him as we require them, and at
the year's end we make a settlement.
5870. There is a convenience in making a settlement at the end
of the time, because you have not to pay for the goods in the
meantime?-Yes.
5871. But if you got your cash every month or every six weeks, as
you wanted it, would that not save you the trouble of going to Voe
for your goods?-It might.
5872. Would you not consider that a great advantage?-No, not a
great advantage.
5873. Do you think it is handier to make a settlement once a year
and go to Voe for your goods?-Yes.
5874. Are you obliged in any way to go there unless you please to
do so?-No, we are not obliged.
5875. How much do you generally get in cash at the year's end?-
That varies according to the fishing. I have seen us get £8 or £9
after deducting our accounts.
5876. Do you require that money to pay your rent and other things
that you want to buy?-Yes.
Brae, January 10, 1872, WILLIAM POLE, examined.
5877. You are managing partner at Mossbank of the firm of Pole,
Hoseason & Co, merchants and fish-curers?-Yes.
5878. You have other places in Shetland?-Yes. We have one in
North Yell, at Greenbank; we have also two fishing stations-one
at Feideland, and the other at Gloup. Feideland is at the extreme
end of Northmavine, and Gloup is at the farthest north part of Yell.
5879. Have you heard the evidence of Mr. Adie?-Yes.
5880. Is the way in which you carry on your business at Mossbank
substantially the same?-Yes, substantially the same. One
difference is that we don't give discount on the fishermen's
accounts in the way Mr. Adie seems to do.
5881. Is there any other difference that occurs to you?-The
fishermen pay for their lines in some cases by three yearly
instalments, and in the event of fisherman leaving us we are not
bound to take back the lines from him, as Mr. Adie said. But that
is quite a trifling difference.
5882. What proportion of dried fish do you estimate to be
produced from the green fish, in settling with your men?-It takes
21/4 cwt. of green fish to make 1 cwt. of dry in the case of ling; and
in the case of tusk it takes more.
5883. Is that a universal calculation in Shetland?-In some years it
is a little less, and in some years a little more.
5884. Is that not a fixed standard? Is there a fresh calculation
made every year as to the quantity of dried fish produced out of so
much green?-There can be if it is wished.
5885. Do you not always go upon the footing that 21/4 cwt. of green
fish make 1 cwt. of dry?-No; we can make a calculation in order
to get at the quantity of green fish which it takes to make 1 cwt. of
dry.
5886. On what principle do you act in settling with the
fishermen?-In settling with them we pay them the current price
paid in the country.
5887. But you calculate that current price on a certain principle
with regard to the quantity of dry fish produced out of green?-
Yes.
5888. In settling with them, do you always go upon the footing that
21/4 cwt. of green make 1 cwt. of dry, or does that enter into the
settlement with the fishermen at all?-Of course that enters into
the calculation; but then we can know exactly what quantity of
green fish it takes to make 1 cwt. of dry. It is generally about 21/4
cwt. It may be a few pounds less some years, but it is very seldom
more than 21/4 cwt. We always reckon upon it taking 21/4 cwt.
green of ling to make 1 cwt. of dry; but then the price which we
pay to the fishermen depends altogether upon the price which we
get from the fish dry, and we pay them the current price paid in the
country.
5889. How is that current price ascertained? Is it by the sales
of each fish-curer, or by the sales of all the firms in Shetland?-
Fish-curers have generally to pay the same price, whether they get
the same price or not; but there is not often any great difference
between the price got by one curer and that got by another. For
instance, we reckon, one 21/4 cwt. green fish to 1 cwt. dry: that, at
8s. a cwt., comes to 18s., and we pay the fishermen for the cwt.
of dry fish. Then the actual cost of curing is reckoned at about
2s. 6d. per cwt. dry. That does not include waste of curing utensils
and management; so that the actual cost of curing the fish would
be nearly £3 a ton, or 3s. a cwt.
5890. You may sell these fish for about 23s.?-Yes; but there is
more to be taken into the calculation than that. We get £6 from
each boat for the hire of the boat and the lines; but that sum cannot
cover the cost to us, and therefore we have a loss upon the boat
and lines, which has to come off the fish also.
5891. Is that loss universal?-I think it is, because there is no more
paid for the boats now than was paid twenty years ago, when a
boat wore half as long again [Page 146] as it does now, and when
lines that run for two or three seasons would run for five or six
seasons.
5892. Is that difference caused by deterioration in the quality of
the articles?-No; it is caused by the boats going further out to the
fishing. They require larger boats and larger sails, and then the
lines are getting more used and more worn.
5893. I was asking you how the current price is ascertained at the
end of the year?-It is just ascertained in the same way as the
current price of any other commodity in any other place would be
ascertained.
5894. Do you correspond with other fish-curers in order to find out
the price?-Yes.
5895. Is there any meeting of fish-curers held at Lerwick or
elsewhere for the purpose of fixing the price?-Not that I am
aware of; not in the case of the haaf fishing.
5896. Is there any in the case of the Faroe fishing?-I am not sure
about that; but I never attended one.
5897. Have you been asked to attend one?-No.
5898. Is there any rule with regard to the fixing of price current in
the Faroe fishing? Do not the fishermen there get one-half the
proceeds of the fishing, whatever the price may be, without
reference to a price current?-It is always expected that the crew
of one vessel will get the same as the crew of another.
5899. Do you mean the same as the crew of another employed by
the same merchant?-No; by different merchants. That is always
expected, and there is seldom any difference, although it does
happen occasionally.
5900. Therefore you have heard of a meeting for the purpose of
fixing a price current for the Faroe fishing?-I heard of such a
thing taking place once, but not oftener; and I think it was only
attended by three or four individuals. I think that was a year or
two ago, but I am not certain about the time. Indeed, I am not
certain about the thing; it only occurs to me that I heard about it.
5901. But the current price for the ordinary ling fishing can be
easily enough ascertained, because you meet one another, and in
your correspondence you may mention it incidentally?-Yes.
5902. Does it sometimes happen that the fishermen to one
firm complain that they have not got so large price as their
neighbours?-That has happened in my experience once or twice.
5903. Does that account in any degree for the desire which some
fishermen seem to have for a price to be fixed before the season
begins?-I don't think so.
5904. Do you think fishermen would be better off if a price were
so fixed?-I do not.
5905. Why?-Because I think, under the present system, they are
getting the very utmost the fish are worth to any merchant.
5906. But would it not be better for the fishermen? Would they
not work as well, or better, if they knew the price they were to
get?-I am not very sure about that; I cannot see in what respect
they could possibly be better than they are.
5907. In your curing establishment do you employ beach boys at a
fixed rate per annum?-Yes.
5908. Do they open an account in your shop-books in the same
way as a fisherman who is engaged to fish to you for the season?-
Yes, in much the same way. We engage them about this time of
the year, and they require a few trifles about this time. Then,
before they commence work on the beach, they require some
clothing-perhaps some oilskins and boots or shoes. Then they
require meal to keep them going through the season, and they are
settled with at the end.
5909. What is the amount of the balance generally paid to a beach
boy at settlement time in cash?-From 10s. to 30s.
5910. Out of wages amounting to from £2 to £3, 10s.?-Yes; we
very seldom pay a boy more than £3.
5911. Have you any difficulty in getting beach boys?-We do find
a considerable difficulty sometimes.
5912. Is the supply not equal to the demand?-Not in our case. For
the past year for instance, it has not.
5913. How does that happen? Are their wages too low, or have
they any other employment nowadays?-Nowadays the boys are
being employed at the fishing sooner than they used to be.
5914. Are there many people employed in your curing
establishment as day workers?-Yes; they are chiefly women,
but there are a few boys and a few old people.
5915. How are they paid?-By the day.