5538. Have you heard of any bargain for settling at another time
than at the end of the year, and in a different way?-No.
5539. Did you ever know of men agreeing to fish for wages?-Not
in the ling-fishing.
[Page 137]
5540. Do you think free men would agree to that?-I don't know:
some of them might.
5541. Would you agree to it?-I would just as soon run my own
chance.
Brae, January 10, 1872, GILBERT BLANCE, examined.
5542. You are a fisherman at Mid Garth?-Yes; in the immediate
neighbourhood of Mossbank.
5543. Do you hold land under Mr. Bell?-No; the landlord under
whom I held is dead, and the property is now under trustees. Mr.
Sievwright, writer, Lerwick, is the factor for it.
5544. Are you under any obligation to fish to a particular
fish-curer?-No.
5545. You can fish for anybody you please?-Yes.
5546. For whom do you fish?-For Messrs. Pole, Hoseason, &
Co.,
5547. Do you deal at their shop for all your goods?-Yes.
5548. Do you find that you have generally a balance to receive in
cash at the settlement?-No; I have generally had a balance
against me. I have never had a balance in cash to receive except in
two special years. One of these was one year when they were
paying 8s. per cwt. for the green fish; and the other was the past
year, when they were also paying 8s.
5549. Do you think you are as well served at Messrs. Pole,
Hoseason, & Co.'s shop as you would be if you took your money
and spent it where you pleased?-I don't know much about the
difference in that respect.
5550. Have you ever made any comparison between the prices
which you pay for your goods at their shop, and what you would
pay for them elsewhere?-No, I have never tried that.
5551. What is generally the amount of the balance against you at
the end of the year?-It may range from £17 to £5.
5552. Do you get any payments in cash in the course of the
year?-No; very seldom. When men are in debt there are no
payments in cash; but if I need a little money, I can call upon
them for that assistance.
5553. Do you mean when you want money for rent, or anything of
that sort?-Yes, for rent.
5554. Do you consider that you are under any obligation to engage
to fish for them in consequence of being in debt in that way?-I
consider myself obliged to fish to them so long as I am indebted to
them.
5555. Have you ever thought of engaging to fish for another
company, or attempted to do so?-I have thought of it, but I did
not think it was giving them fair play to offer my services to fish
for another when I was indebted to them.
5556. Do you know many men, who are fishing to them, and who
are indebted to them in the same way?-Yes; there are different
men I know who are indebted to them, perhaps not to so large an
extent, but still to some extent.
5557. Do they consider it fair to continue to fish to the merchants
to whom they are in debt rather than to engage with another?-We
hear them say very little about that.
5558. They don't complain?-No; we don't hear them complain
much.
5559. Do you think you would get a better price for your fish if
you were to engage with any one else?-We might make better
bargains with other men, but we cannot attempt to do that in our
present way of fishing.
5560. Is that because in the present way of fishing no price is
fixed?-Yes; no price is fixed until the end of the year.
5561. Do you think the price fixed at the end of the year ought
sometimes to be higher than it is?-We sometimes do think that,
because, as has been already stated by the witnesses, although we
are fishing for the whole season, we don't know what we are to
obtain for our fish. That depends upon the market which the
merchant has to make for the fish before he can pay the value of
them. The price will range from 8s. to 4s. 6d., according to the
markets they make.
5562. The fishermen, I understand, have nothing to do with fixing
the price?-Nothing whatever.
5563. Have you ever cured your own fish?-No.
5564. Nor sold them?-No.
5565. Have you any reason to believe that the current price as
fixed by the fish-merchants is not the fair value of the fish
throughout the season?-Some of the fishermen think they don't
get so much for their fish as they ought to get, but perhaps that
may be a mistake on the part of the men.
5566. We are all apt to be a little discontented; but do you think
there is any reason for that belief more than the natural tendency
of the men to discontent?-I cannot say whether there is any real
ground for that belief or not.
5567. You cannot tell any case in which you thought you got less
for your fish than you ought to have got?-I could not mention any
particular instance of that, because we never see the account of
sales which the merchants make of the fish.
5568. Do you know when the fish sales take place?-I think it is
some time about the month of November.
5569. How soon after that are you told what you are to get for your
take?-When we come to settle, either on the last of November or
the first of December..
5570. You heard the evidence of the previous witnesses: do you
think it was generally correct?-I think it was very correct, so far
as I know.
5571. Has your experience with regard to the system of dealing
been the same as was described by them?-It has been the same as
the last witness described.
5572. But you don't know whether you got goods dearer at Pole,
Hoseason, & Co.'s shop than you could get them elsewhere?-No,
I don't know anything about that, because all we require, such as
meal, lines, calico, and other things, comes from their shop.
5573. What price do you pay for meal?-We don't usually buy
meal in wholesale, as the last witness did, but probably in pecks or
two pecks or lispunds.
5574. Do you keep a pass-book?-No.
5575. Why not?-Because we trust to the honesty of the
merchants.
5576. Do they not want you to take a pass-book?-They would
have no objection to us having one, but many of us are not good
arithmeticians, and we could not make much of them although we
had them.
5577. When you were out fishing, have you sometimes sold your
fish to others than Pole, Hoseason, & Co.?-I have not been in the
habit of doing that.
5578. Is it sometimes done?-Perhaps it is by some individuals.
5579. What is their reason for doing that?-I cannot say what their
reason may be, unless it is to have immediate supplies.
5580. Or money?-Yes, or money; but it is commonly for
something such as refreshments which they wish to take on their
way to or coming from the fishing-ground.
5581. Where do you usually meet the people who buy your fish
from you in that way?-Sometimes they are met in the course of
our fishing operations at the land's end.
5582. On the land?-No; on the sea in a little boat. They will take
any small portion of fish we may give them, and hand us
refreshments in return.
5583. Do you get a larger sum for your fish in that way?-No; I
never knew of any larger sum that was given in that way than the
country currency.
5584. Is that practice what you call smuggling the fish?-I suppose
so.
5585. Do you think it is much done?-It is not much done now.
Formerly it was done to some extent, but not to any great extent.
5586. I suppose there were some factors or merchants in the
country who did it good deal in buying fish on the sly in that way
at one time?-I believe there was at one time, but not so much
now.
[Page 138]
5587. Did they give a higher price for the fish than the fish-curers
give?-Yes.
5588. Was it a higher price than the currency?-Yes.
5589. Are there it few of these men still?-Yes.
5590. They do come from Lerwick?-No; they are just people
living in the country.
5591. Do they buy the fish either green or cured?-They will take
them more readily green than cured, because they cure them for
themselves. The factor who buys generally cures for himself.
5592. Is the man who buys fish in that way generally a merchant
who keeps a shop himself somewhere?-Generally he has a small
bit of a shop.
Brae, January 10, 1872, THOMAS MOUNTFORD ADIE, examined.
5593. You are a fish-merchant, and the principal partner of the
firm of T.M. Adie & Co. Voe?-Yes, the business is conducted in
my own name, but my sons have an interest in it.
5594. Do you employ a great number of fishermen?-Yes, a large
number.
5595. Are the contracts which you enter into with them different in
some of their details?-As a rule they are much the same.
5596. Although there may be some difference, the general rule is,
that in the home fishing the fisherman delivers his fish to you at a
price that is fixed at the end of the season?-Yes.
5597. Have you tried to arrange with your fishermen for dealings
upon any different system from that?-I have not.
5598. Have you not on one or two occasions made different
arrangements?-On one or two occasions I have made contracts
with some of them for a fixed price.
5599. That price being fixed at the beginning of the season?-Yes.
5600. Has that generally turned out well?-It did not turn out well
in these cases. The price advanced in the course of the season, and
I had to pay the men the advanced price in order to satisfy them.
5601. Would the men have been discontented otherwise?-Yes.
5602. Is it long since that happened?-It is several years now;
perhaps 12 or 14 years ago.
5603. Do you think it would be any advantage for the curer or the
fishermen if that system were generally adopted?-My impression
is, that the fishermen would suffer, for this reason, that fish in the
summer season are always sold at a less price, and any one buying
green fish must calculate what he can give for them according to
the value of the article then. By delaying the settlement till the
end of the season, the fishermen take the chance of the price either
rising or falling, but the probability is that it will rise, because salt
fish usually sell better in the winter season than in summer.
5604. So that if the price were fixed at the beginning of the year,
you think it would generally be fixed too low?-Yes.
5605. But both the fishermen and the master would take into
account at the beginning of the season the probability of the price
rising in winter, and the fact that it generally does rise then, would
they not?-It is scarcely likely that that would be much taken into
account; because when a man buys an article he buys it at the price
of the day, and not at what the price of it may become. There is no
doubt that would be a more satisfactory way of dealing if it could
be done but I don't see how it could be adopted, because no curer
could offer to buy fish offhand at a price that would satisfy the
fishermen.
5606. Is the probability that the fishermen would be discontented
your principal reason for objecting to that system?-Yes.
5607. If it could be carried out, would it simplify your own
business?-Yes, it would simplify my business very much. If the
men had boats, and lines of their own, and did not need any
advance, but had all their money to take, and I could pay it at the
end of the week, it would simplify matters very much indeed.
5608. Under that system, however there would be difficulty in
advancing the men?-We could not give advances to them at all;
and if we did not make advances, they could not go to the fishing.
5609. Is the system generally followed in your establishment, that
of advancing boats and lines to the fishermen?-Yes, whenever it
is needed. There are solitary cases where men buy their own
boats, having money laid past; but that is very rare.
5610. When they do so, do they pay the price by instalments, or do
they pay down the money?-They pay for them by instalments on
a particular principle of payment which has been adopted for the
purpose. That principle is this: The boat is built by any carpenter
the men choose to employ; the price is paid for it, and that is
charged to their account. There is generally a hire of £2, 10s. paid
every year for a six-oared boat; that is placed to the credit of the
boat yearly, to enable the men to pay up for their boat, so that they
may really have it of their own, because I consider it would be
better for me if they had them. When the men buy their boats, I
give them 3d. per, cwt. additional for each cwt. of fish caught to
go to the credit of their boat until it is paid; and when once the
boat is their own, they get that additional price into their own
private accounts, and it is paid to them in cash whenever the price
of the boat is paid up.
5611. Do you mean that you give 3d. per cwt. higher to these men
than you give to men who hire a boat?-Yes.
5612. And you give that to a man who has a boat of his own to
begin with?-If he has a boat of his own, he gets the 3d.
5613. Then, when you charge for boat-hire, you charge 3d. per
cwt. in addition on the price of the fish?-No, we don't charge
that, but they get 3d. per cwt. less. For instance, the price this year
for ling was 8s. The crew gets settled for that; and if they had
been buying the boat, we put 3d. per cwt. to the credit of the
account for the boat, in order to enable them to acquire it for
themselves.
5614. And you would give the same advantage to man who
possessed his own boat originally?-Yes; if he possessed his own
boat, he would be better entitled to it, because then I would be
running no risk. In the other case, the men might lose the boat,
and then I would have nothing to get for it.
5615. But when you charge the boat-hire, the men are obliged to
take a smaller price for their fish in addition to having the hire to
pay for it?-Yes, and even in that case we are worse off, because
the boats cost much more than the amount of the hire will cover.
We are better off giving them the 3d. to enable them to get a boat
of their own.
5616. I suppose when the boat is their own the men take better
care of it, and it will last longer?-Yes, very commonly.
5617. And I suppose they take better care of it even before it
becomes their own?-Generally they do, although I have some
men who take very great care of their materials even when they are
hiring them. There are great differences in men in that way.
5618. Is that a system you have adopted yourself, in order to
induce the men to become the owners of their own boats?-Yes, I
don't know any other curer who uses it.
5619. That shows that you have no interest in having the men
hiring out a boat from you?-No; very far from it.
5620. How long does it generally take for a man to pay off a boat
when he buys it in that way?-Buying it in that way, if their
fishing was anything good, the boat's crew would clear it in about
five fishing seasons.
5621. It would then become their joint property?-Yes.
5622. How long does a boat generally last?-The [Page 139]
greatest length of time they are used for is 12 years; but very often
they give them up when they are 6 or 7 years old. Perhaps the boat
is not good, and they won't risk it any longer.
5623. In that case, do they generally begin a new arrangement for
the purchase of another boat?-Yes, for the purchase of a boat, if
it is their own. If it is a hired boat, then it is thrown on the curer's
hands to provide them with another.
5624. What is the usual rate for a boat-hire throughout Shetland?
-I think £2, 10s. is a pretty general hire over all for such boats.
5625. I understand you settle with your own men yearly about
December?-We commence settling about 12th November, and it
takes us a considerable time to get over the whole of our men.
5626. Has each man dealing with you a pass-book?-No, not all,
but the greater part of them have.
5627. But you wish them to have pass-books?-Yes; I should be
very glad for them all to have passbooks, if they would only keep
them regularly. When it is a careful man, his book is kept
regularly, and there is very little trouble with him in taking down
his account.
5628. I understand each fisherman employed by you has an
account in your ledger, in which each year is balanced at the
settling time?-Yes.
5629. That account on the one side contains the debt which he has
incurred for furnishings to the boat, boat-hire, and the amount of
his shop account, if he has one?-Yes; the boat-hires are generally
kept under the head of a company account in name of the master
of the boat, as for instance, Thomas Robertson & Co.
5630. Then you have two ledger accounts for your men-one for
the boat's crew, and one for the account of each individual?-Yes;
we very frequently have these accounts entered in the same ledger;
but where the men are fishing at one of our stations, such as Papa,
the company account is settled in the station ledger, which can
always be referred to.
5631. But in that case the individual man has an account in
another ledger?-He has his account in our general ledger at Voe.
5632. The boat-hire is generally charged in the company account;
that is to say, all the members of the company are liable for the
boat-hire?-Yes.
5633. Do a large proportion of the men whom you employ in
fishing have shop accounts at your store?-Yes, a large number of
them; in fact, the most of them have accounts with us more or less.
5634. That is, apart from the mere outfit which they require for
going to the fishing, they are supplied with goods for their
families, both soft goods and provisions?-Yes.
5635. Are these transactions generally carried on upon a system of
credit?-Yes, it is credit for the most part; but some men who
have money just pay down the money for what they want, and it is
not entered in our books.
5636. Are you in the habit of giving a discount when they pay
down money?-Yes, if the amount is worth discounting.
5637. Can you say what is the average amount of fisherman's
share for the take of fish in any one year?-I was making a
calculation of it this morning, and I think that, taking all the
fishermen we have employed just now, their takes of fish for the
whole year would average about £12, 5s.
5638. Are you able to say what deductions would fall to be made
from that sum in the case of an ordinary fisherman?-There would
be deducted from it specially his proportion of the boat-hire, and
the yearly payment or hire for his lines. Some of them pay a
yearly payment on their lines, while others hire them. There will
be about 22s. deducted for that, and that is the only special charge
that has to be deducted, except what he has got for his living.
5639. Are these special charges due by the individual fishermen or
by the boat's crew?-For the lines in all my boats they are due by
each individual, but the boat hire is due by them as a company.
5640. You spoke of the lines being got by the men either on hire or
by making a yearly payment?-Yes, a yearly payment equal to the
hire which they would pay if they were hiring the lines. For
instance, the pay for the hire of one of these fishing lines is 8d. a
year; but instead of taking that as hire, we credit it yearly to the
men, and so soon as it has liquidated the value of the lines they
become the fisherman's own property; whereas, if a man gets his
outfit and goes to the fishing this season, and does not feel inclined
to go another year, then he has only paid the hire, and the lines
must be returned to me.
5641. But if a man begins to make a yearly payment by way of
purchasing the lines, he is obliged to go on?-He is not obliged to
go on if he chooses to give up the fishing altogether; but even in
that case it is an advantage to them to have the lines, because they
can always make use of the old ones in some way or other.
5642. In the case of hired lines and of that sort of purchase by
instalments, where does the risk lie?-The risk lies with the
fisherman in both cases.
5643. If the hired lines are lost, he pays for them?-Yes.
5644. And if they are lost while he is buying them, he pays for
them also?-Of course; but if he is hiring a boat, and it is lost at
sea, he is not liable for that boat.
5645. But he would be liable for the lines in that case?-Yes.
5646. I don't quite see the distinction between the two cases of
hiring lines and buying them by instalments in the way you have
described. Does it not come to be the same thing to the fisherman
in the end in both cases?-No; if he continues to hire them, then,
when the lines are unfit for prosecuting the fishing any longer, he
must return them to me, and I can make something out of these old
lines-perhaps 6d. a line; whereas, if he has been buying them by
instalments, they belong to the man himself; and if the lines are of
good quality, and he has taken care of them, he may be able to use
them for a season or two after the whole payments have been
made for them. I have some fishermen who have used their lines
at the deep-sea fishing in that way for two seasons after the usual
yearly payment has completed the value of them.
5647. The deductions you have now mentioned apply to every
case, but at settlement there may be other deductions for the
amount of furnishings supplied to the men during the season?-
Yes.
5648. Is that the only other deduction which falls to be made in the
ordinary case?-Yes. If the man has been running an account, of
course that must be deducted.
5649. Are you in a position to say what the ordinary amount of a
fisherman's account at your shop will be in the course of a
season?-Perhaps the ordinary amount will be from £4 to £5.
Some of them will be a great deal more than that; whereas there
are some men fishing to me who won't have 3s. worth out of my
shop in the course of a season.
5650. The amount differs according to the individual?-Yes, and
according to his needs.
5651. Is there a large proportion of your fishermen who close the
year somewhat in your debt?-Yes, a considerable number, but
not nearly so many as there were some years ago.
5652. Has that been in consequence of a succession of good
years?-I think so, but there has been a great change in the habits
of the people. I think they are generally more careful now than
they were.
5653. Are you able to say from your own observation whether men
who are so much in your debt deal more at your shop than
others?-With some of the men who fish for me, the greatest
difficulty I have is to prevent them from dealing,-not to get them
to buy goods, but to get them not to buy them. Of course there are
black sheep in every flock, and I have men who, after receiving
considerable supplies from my shop, and when I have found it
quite unreasonable to allow them to go further, turned round upon
me and said, 'Well, if you won't give me what I want I will go to
[Page 140] some other body and fish for them.' Of course these
are exceptions.
5654. They say that to you when they are considerably in your
debt?-Yes; and when they think there is no chance of getting any
more.
5655. Then it is not an advantage to a fish merchant or to any
merchant, as has been alleged, to have a number of people in his
debt?-Certainly not. The best fishermen are those who are not in
debt. It is a very sad thing to have to settle with a man who has no
money coming to him.
5656. Can you get as many fishermen to engage with you as you
want, although they should not be in your debt?-Yes; I can get a
man to fish for me more readily who is not in my debt than one
who is in my debt. A man who is in my debt will, make all the
excuses and trouble in the world, but with a man who is not in
debt there is no trouble at all. He sees his way clearly, and it is for
the purpose of saving something for his family that he goes to the
fishing.
5657. Is it a common subject of complaint with your fishermen,
that the price of the fish is not settled till the end of the year?-
They do speak of that sometimes; and yet, since the question was
mooted in consequence of reports being circulated through the
country with regard to the investigation, which you are now
prosecuting, they are all up in arms for fear any change should be
made.
5658. Have they come to you objecting to any change being
made?-Yes, a great number of them have done so.
5659. On what grounds?-Because they think that a change could
not be made for the better. For instance, if an arrangement was
made to pay them for their fish every week, three-fourths of them
could not go to the fishing at all, because they have neither boats
nor lines, nor could they get the necessary supplies to enable them
to go. Then the price which they would receive for the fish would
necessarily be smaller. They have had experience of that at the
fishing stations where there was competition, this one trying to
barter or smuggle a few fish, and the other smuggling a few fish.
They get the very highest price for them which is given at that
time; but then at settlement, even with some of my men who have
sold a few fish, I have had to pay up the difference between the
price they received at the station and the current price which was
being paid at the end of the season.
5660. That was only in the case where a higher current price was
given at the end of the season than was paid for the fish while the
season was running on?-Yes.
5661. Have you been often asked to pay a difference of that
sort?-I do it voluntarily.
5662. Was that for fish which you did not get at all?-No, not for
what I did not get; that I had nothing to do with.
5663. But you did not get smuggled fish?-Yes, there are
smuggled fish sold to me. My boats sell smuggled fish to another
curer, and boats belonging to another curer sell fish to my factor.
5664. But why should you pay the difference to your own men
upon any fish which they have smuggled to other curers?-It is not
upon fish they have smuggled that I pay the difference, but there is
a system among my fishermen of having what is called a bucht
line. That is a line of his own, the fish caught by which are sold by
him in order to supply himself with any small article he requires
during the fishing. They settle for these fish at the fishing station;
and if the price which is given at the settlement is larger than what
they have got at the station, I pay them up the difference.
5665. Is that bucht a device for having a little cash in hand?-A
bucht is the term which they give to one of these fishing lines.
5666. But is it a device for having some special wants supplied
during the course of the season, and before the settlement comes
round?-It is just a fancy they have; because if all their fish went
one way, and they asked the money, they would get it. It is merely
a thing that has been practised among them for many years, and
the practice has been allowed to continue.
5667. Is that a practice in your business only, or is it generally
done in Shetland?-It is only done by some. There are many of
our men who do not do it, but some of them do it.
5668. Can you give me any idea of the amount of cash paid in
advances to the fishermen in the course of the year and before
settlement? Do you pay a large sum in that way at your
stations?-I should fancy that over the whole of my fishings £200
would cover the whole amount that is paid in advances during the
season.
5669. Your fishings are at Voe, Papa Stour, Stenness, and the
Skerries?-Yes.
5670. At each of these places you have a factor and a shop for
supplying goods?-Yes; we must have a store.
5671. Are these stores kept open all the year round?-At Papa and
the Skerries they are: at Stenness the store is only kept during the
summer fishing season.
5672. And the shop there only supplies the fishermen with what
they need for their own personal use, and not with what they
require for their families?-Just so; but sometimes those men who
have their families in the neighbourhood get a little for them
also,-a little tea, and such as that.
5673. You say the amount of the shop account will be from £4 or
£5 on an average; so that, after making other deductions, that will
leave something like £4 or £5 payable in cash to an ordinary man
at the end of an ordinary season?-Yes; but there are a great many
of them who have a great deal more than that to get.
5674. Of course the amount differs according to the seasons, and
according to the individual; but do you think that would be a fair
average?-I should say that about £6 might be taken as an average
of the amount paid in cash.
5675. Does that apply to all your stations?-Yes, to them all.
5676. What is the number of fishermen upon your books
altogether?-I should fancy about 400.
5677. Are these all employed in the summer fishing?-Yes.
5678. Is there any reason why the whole price of a man's fish
should not be paid to him in money?-The only reason is that he
has already got part of it in goods. Of course we cannot pay for it
in goods and in cash also.
5679. But is there any reason why he should take it in goods
unless he likes?-None whatever, unless he likes. There is no
compulsion put upon any of the men.
5680. Don't you think he would be better off if he got the money,
and paid for the goods in cash as he wanted them?-It is quite
possible that he might fancy so; but I cannot see that it would
make much difference. We always deduct the 5 per cent. from the
goods the men have got, the same as if they were purchasing them
for cash.
5681. So that you make no difference between cash payments, and
paying for them in account in that way?-None in that respect.
5682. Why is it that you give that amount back in the form of a
discount, instead of charging your goods originally at the same
price?-Of course if a man buys a quarter of a pound of tea, or
half a pound of tobacco we cannot take a discount off that; but we
put the whole of the transactions together at the end of the season,
and a discount is then allowed. If he bought the whole over the
counter, he would pay the price down at once; but he has an
advantage by these small items being added together, and the
discount taken off, which he would not have if he paid for the
articles separately.
5683. So that you really give a larger discount upon your credit
dealings than, upon your cash dealings?-Yes; the fisherman has a
greater advantage by having a discount upon these small purchases
when they are all taken together, than he would have if he were
paying for them separately. The discount upon two ounces of
tobacco or a quarter pound of tea would be a mere bagatelle; but
when the whole of his purchases [Page 141] in the course of the
year are added together and the 5 per cent. taken off the whole, it
comes to something. With our fishermen, as a rule, I consider that
these accounts are perfectly good, and the same as if a man were
purchasing for cash.
5684. What do you mean by saying that they are perfectly good?-
I believe we are safe in making these advances to the men.
5685. That is because you have a security?-We have no security.
5686. Have you not the security of the fish?-Yes, we have that
security, if he catches the fish.
5687. Is it upon that principle that you fix the prices at which you
sell your shop goods?-Yes, generally. Of course, if we calculated
upon it being really a bad account, we would require to charge
larger percentage in order to cover the risk; but we would rather
get clear of a man of that kind.
5688. Do you mean that, when a man is an unsafe customer, you
put a different price on the goods which he buys?-I don't put a
different price on them; but I try to give him as little as I can,
although there are some of these men whom it is very troublesome
to put off without giving them something.,
5689. Is there a competition for employment among the men to be
taken on as fishermen for the summer season?-Yes, considerable.
5690. Are there men sufficient to man any number of boats you
wish?-Well, I might be too greedy, wish more than I could
manage; but I have found no difficulty hitherto in manning as
many boats as we could reasonably manage.
5691. You supply your men with groceries as well as soft
goods?-Yes; groceries, soft goods, and meal.
5692. In fixing the prices of these goods, both the groceries and
soft goods, do you allow it margin for profit, just the same as any
merchant would do in Lerwick, or Wick, or any other town?-I
should fancy it is much the same. Of course, groceries being an
article of daily use, we charge a less percentage on them than we
do on soft goods. Very often soft goods lie on our shelves for a
considerable time, and get damaged, and become unsaleable.
5693. But I suppose that would be the principle on which the retail
price would be fixed if you deal in only one kind of these articles,
or if you were selling them in any other place than Shetland?-Of
course; that is the principle on which business is conducted
anywhere. I think that goods, for instance soft goods, are sold by
us in retail fully as low as they are in the shops in the south; even
as cheap as they are retailed in Edinburgh. That is easily
accounted for; because they have much larger rents to pay in
Edinburgh than we have here.
5694. Do you say the same with regard to provisions?-I think
there is not much difference on provisions; only the difference for
freight and insurance. Of course, at a place like Voe, the transport
of bulky goods comes to be very expensive. For instance, at this
season of the year, we cannot get a sack of meal from Aberdeen to
my house under 5s.
5695. The meal generally is imported about the end the season?-
Yes, generally.
5696. Did you hear the evidence that was given today by some of
the witnesses about the price of meal?-Yes.
5697. Are you in a position to say whether the price of meal at Voe
is higher than at Lerwick, or about the same?-It is higher than at
Lerwick as a matter of course, because we have considerable more
expense in bringing it here. We have to bring it up to Brae by
water, then cart it across the isthmus, and bring it to my house in
boats. When the weather is bad, we have to cart it all the way.
5698. Therefore the price of meal with you is considerably
higher?-Yes; and of any bulky article which requires a
considerable deal of handling and expense of transport.
5699. What do you suppose the difference is between the price of
meal at Voe and the price at Lerwick?-I should fancy about 2s.
per boll
5700. Will the difference be that throughout the year?-I think so;
but sometimes in the spring we manage to get a vessel to bring it
in direct; and then we can sell it as cheap as they do at Lerwick.
5701. Have your men ever made any complaint to you about the
price being higher than it ought to be?-No.
5702. Is the price stated to them at the time when they get the
meal, or is it generally fixed at settling time?-They know the
price of every article when they buy it
5703. Do you calculate that the profit upon your provisions and
soft goods, or the profit upon your fish sales, is the greater?-I
cannot say.
5704. Have you the same percentage of profit upon both?-No; on
the fish sales it is only 5 per cent.
5705. Is that just a commission?-Yes.
5706. That is to say, the payment to the men for the fish, the
cost of fitting them out when you do so, and of your curing
establishments, will come up to within 5 per cent. of what you sell
them for to your buyers in the south?-Yes; and then we have to
run the risk of the payments. The fish are all sold on three months
bill. Our fishermen are all settled with this year, and I have not
touched a sixpence for any of our fish yet.
5707. Does the 5 per cent. cover that risk?-Yes. Of course, if we
discounted these bills, that would run off with 11/4 per cent. of it,
but we just wait until the bills are due.
5708. Then, if you were under the necessity of paying your
fishermen entirely in cash, and did not carry on your shop
business, would you be obliged to charge a higher profit upon your
fish, or to pay the fishermen less for the fish?-If I had no shop at
all, and merely traded in fish, I would require to deal more in them
than I do, in order to make a living out of it.
5709. But you can afford to take a smaller commission on your
fish than you would otherwise do, by reason of the fact that you
are carrying on another business at the same time?-Yes.
5710. You are making two profits, although one of them may be a
very small one?-The one profit is entirely at the option of the
fisherman. He is not obliged to buy the goods unless he chooses.
5711. Perhaps not, but he would likely require to pay that profit to
another merchant, or certainly to pay some profit, and you would
expect some of that to come to you?-Yes; every one expects
some profit. I employ a good many hands about Voe curing fish.
These are invariably settled with in cash, if they are able to do
without any supplies during the week, but they are always settled
with at the end of the week.
5712. Theirs is a weekly payment?-Yes.
5713. But they get supplies during the week?-Sometimes we are
obliged to give them something, otherwise they could not work.
5714. And that is deducted from their weekly pay?-Yes. At the
stations the curers are generally engaged at a sum for the season.
5715. In what form are the supplies given at your shop deducted
from the weekly payments at Voe?-For instance, if the girls
working at the fish have earned 5s. a week, and if they have got 2s.
worth of goods, they have only 3s. to get.,
5716. But in what way is it noted that they have got that advance
in goods?-We keep an account of it in our book.
5717. Is there a ledger account for each worker?-We have what
we term a jot ledger for these weekly accounts. We do not carry
them into our regular working books.
5718. How many people are employed in that way?-I have
known as high as sixty; they will run from thirty to sixty.
5719. Do those people ever ask you for cash in the course of the
week?-Sometimes they do but not very often. The length of time
between the pays is so very short that they don't require it, but if
they are in need of cash they get it.
5720. Do they prefer to take their advances in goods?-They
prefer to take their payment at the end of the week.
[Page 142]
5721. But when they require goods in the course the week, do you
give them to them?-Yes; goods and cash are much the same
thing to them; for if we gave them money, they would just turn
round and buy the goods. If they went anywhere else, they must
lose a day's work in going to it.
5722. I suppose that is one reason why the system of fish-curers
having stores for shop goods exists, because their shops are at such
inconvenient distances from each other?-Yes; the people would
lose so much time in travelling to other places in order to get their
goods, that we require to keep shops for them. If their time is of
any value to them at all, the fact that they have a shop on the spot
far more than compensates them for any difference they may pay
in price.
5723. But if there were no such shops as yours, would there not be
a class of dealers throughout the island who would provide the
goods that the people want?-I don't know; perhaps there might
be such.
5724. Does a fisherman not incline rather to deal with the
employer to whom he delivers his fish, than with another?-I think
so. The fishermen and their employers are generally on a friendly
footing, and the man is satisfied that the curer he is fishing to will
do as fairly to him as possible if he is a deserving man. I consider
he gets every advantage that he could naturally expect, and it is an
object with the fish-curers in every way to encourage steady
careful men.
5725. Will you give me a note of the number of men employed by
you, of the total amount of cash paid to them, and of the total
amount of their shop accounts for 1870, and also for 1867?-Yes.
I found, on looking over my books last night, that the total amount
of cash paid at the present settlement was £2015. That includes
the Faroe fishing too. With regard to the employment of curers at
the stations for a specific sum, I may mention that it would not do
to pay them weekly, because for several weeks, and perhaps
longer, if it is bad weather, these curers will have nothing to do at
all. At the home fishing stations they are paid by a fixed sum
yearly; and the reason for that is, that if we were to pay them
weekly, they would be quite pleased for two or three weeks if they
had nothing to do; but if it came a fine week, and there was a great
quantity of work, they would throw everything up and go home,
and our fishing might be left to perish.
5726. Are you engaged in the Faroe fishing to a great extent?-Not
to a great extent; but I have five vessels.
5727. In that case, the arrangement with the men is somewhat
different?-Yes, quite different; the men get half the fish, and they
are paid the current price for the dry fish.
5728. You cure all the fish, and they get half the price of the dried
fish?-Yes.
5729. So that the calculation is somewhat similar?-Yes. There is
5 per cent. taken off for selling and risk before the division takes
place.
5730. When is the Faroe fishing at an end?-As rule, it is at an end
in August.
5731. When are the fish completely cured?-It is sometimes
nearly the end of September before they are cured.
5732. Is the division made then?-No; the owner of the vessel
sells all the fish, and the division is not made until the settlement.
5733. In the case of a man who engages with you for the Faroe
fishing, is it usual for an account to be opened in his name in the
same way as with the others?-Yes; we are obliged to supply him
with an outfit. The principle of that agreement is, that the men get
one-half the value of the fish after deducting curing, and the
expenses of converting the fish into cash. They are also allowed 8
lbs. of biscuit per week; the other provisions they have to furnish
for themselves.
5734. These supplies are all entered to the man's debit in your
book?-Yes.
5735. Is it usual for you to supply his family during his absence
with goods on credit in the same way?-Yes; we are very often
obliged to do that in order to keep them from starving.
5736. Is that done on a larger scale than in home fishing?-No; I
don't think it is done on such a large scale, for the greater number
of the hands going to the Faroe fishing are young men without
families.
5737. In the Faroe fishing you have not only the 5 per cent. for
selling, but you have the profit on one-half of the fish?-That is
sometimes a very small profit, for the vessels will sometimes be
£100 in debt in the course of a year.
5738. But that depends on the luck of the voyage?-Yes; we have
one-half of the fish for the vessel.
5739. You supply the vessel entirely, and the men have nothing to
supply except their fishing lines?-Yes; nothing except their
fishing lines-2 lines, or 21/2, for hauling the fish with.
5740. Are these lines supplied by you as part of the outfit?-We
have to put them on board the vessel, and then any of the men who
require them can get them. Sometimes the men have lines of their
own, and don't require to take them from us.
5741. I understand you were engaged at one time in the hosiery
trade?-Yes.
5742. You used to buy the hosiery in the same way in which it is
now bought in Lerwick?-Yes; always paid in goods, I gave that
business up in 1870.
5743. Was there any profit made upon that trade?-No; the only
profit I ever made by the hosiery was if we had any profit on the
goods that we bartered for them. We never could realize the price,
as a whole, which I had paid for the hosiery, and consequently we
were obliged to give it up. We had very great difficulty in selling
it.
5744. Did you sell your hosiery goods south?-I sent them south,
and I had really to take anything they would give us for them.
5745. You do something in that way still, do you not?-Yes,
occasionally. The principal thing we do is in purchasing goods
from other merchants for sending them south when we get an
order. Then we purchase what kinds of goods suit us.
5746. Do you buy them in Lerwick?-Yes, and in the country too.
5747. But you don't buy from the knitters yourself?-I don't buy
from them. Sometimes they will make us buy them whether we
will or not. We cannot get clear of them sometimes, but we don't
want to buy them.
5748. Are the knitters anxious to get paid in money for their
hosiery?-I don't know. Very likely they have been so long
accustomed to getting goods for them, that they never think of
asking such a thing as money.
5749. Do you think they would take a less price for hosiery if they
were paid in money?-I don't think it.
5750. I suppose they want the goods in the country, and they think
they get a profit by taking them?-Yes; for instance, if they have a
pair of socks to sell, they won't sell them under 8d., and if you
offer them 6d. in cash it is no object for them to take it. They
would rather have 8d. worth of goods. In that way they are better
off by getting the goods, because if they got 6d. in cash they would
just lay it out in buying 6d. worth of goods.
5751. Do you employ beach boys extensively?-Yes, a good
many; not at Voe, but at Papa Stour, Stenness, and Skerries.
5752. What is the usual wage for a beach boy?-The usual wage
now is from £2 to £3, 10s. for boys.
5753. What is it for women?-Women don't usually work there.
If we require to employ women on an emergency, then they are
employed at the station at so much per day. There is no regular
wage for them.
5754. Do the beach boys get accounts opened in their names at
your shop?-We are obliged to do that in order to supply them
with food. Sometimes we have to give them shoes and clothing to
cover them.
5755. Do they generally get a balance of cash at the [Page 143]
end of the year?-Yes; where they are careful, they have a
considerable balance to get. Some of them will even have more
than half their wages to get in cash.
5756. Are you tacksman of any estate or an owner of land in
Shetland?-I am not tacksman of anything but the Skerries
Islands. Mr. Bruce of Simbister is the proprietor.
5757. Are there any people living on these islands permanently all
the year round?-Yes.
5758. Are they bound to fish for you?-Yes; and they have no
wish to change.
5759. You pay rent to Mr. Bruce, and you take the risk of their
payments?-Yes.
5760. In that case their rent enters your account as deduction
against the men?-Yes. I manage Lady Nicholson's property in
Papa, more as a factor for her than as a tacksman.
5761. Are the fishermen there free to fish to anybody they
please?-Yes.
5762. But in point of fact they fish to you?-They all fish to me,
for the very simple reason that there is no other one there for them
to fish to.
5763. Do any of them cure their own fish, or try to do it?-There
is only one native crew who cure their own fish at Papa.
5764. They prefer to do so, and you make no objection?-None
whatever; and when their fish are cured, they just deliver them to
my man there, and we buy them cured at the current price for
cured fish.
5765. Do you think these men make as much of their fish as the
other men do?-They do; but they have a great deal of labour with
it. When the season is bad, it requires a great deal of attention
from the whole of these men to attend to a few fish, and to get
them dried, and perhaps it will be well on in September before
they get over with it. They also run a risk their fish being spoiled.
5766. I suppose some fish are necessarily damaged in the course of
curing?-Yes; it is a very important thing to be particular about
that. They get damaged with rain, and they get damaged with sand
and with the sea-breeze, and they require a great deal of attention.
5767. Is the rent which you pay for Skerries calculated so as to
allow you a profit upon the rents of the sub-tenants?-No; I pay
£110 of tack duty, and the gross rental from the tenants is only
£68, I virtually pay the difference just for the station-that is,
station rent for the store and premises which are put up there.
5768. Is it not also for the privilege of having these fishermen to
fish for you?-I believe I could make more of these lands if I had
them as grazing ground, without any fishermen there at all. There
is only one of the Skerries I hold now; one of them has been sold
to the Lighthouse Commissioners.
5769. If you could make more of the island as grazing ground, why
don't you turn it into that?-If I were to do so, what could I make
of the men? There are fourteen families, and if I turned them
adrift it would be a fearful thing.
5770. Is it difficult for men to get land in Shetland?-It is very
difficult now; there are so many requiring it, that almost every
place is taken up. I have boats that go from the mainland to fish at
the Skerries with the natives.
5771. Then it is useful as a station for them?-Yes.
5772. Is there anything else you wish to state with regard to the
system of carrying on business, or with reference to the evidence
that has been laid before the Commission previously?-Not so far
as I am aware.