5917. Is there a weekly pay-day with them?-There may be, if
they wish; but sometimes, for their convenience, we do not settle
weekly. The settlement may run for three, four, five, or six weeks,
or perhaps whole season.
5918. How many days will these women be employed in the
course of the season? Is it anything like constant employment?-
Yes; at least during the summer. From the end of May till the end
of September we will employ on an average about twenty women
daily at Mossbank, and about ten at Greenbank.
5919. Do these women run an account at your shop for goods?-
Yes.
5920. Is a considerable amount of their wages paid to them in
goods?-Yes, a considerable part.
5921. Is there any understanding or rule that they shall take part of
their wages in goods?-There is no such understanding.
5922. They are quite at liberty with regard to that-Yes.
5923. Will they get cash if they ask for it?-Yes, if they have it to
get; but it is a convenience for them to get their goods from our
shop. It saves them the trouble of going a greater distance for
them.
5924. Is there no other shop there?-Not close by. The nearest
shop is about a mile off, I think.
5925. Is there any expectation or understanding, when these
women are engaged, that they shall open an account and take their
wages, or the greater part of them, in goods at your shop?-No,
there is no understanding; but we have every reason to believe that
they will come to us, because they cannot manage otherwise.
5926. Are the goods which they take generally provisions or soft
goods?-Chiefly provisions, but some soft goods too.
5927. In engaging these women, do you give any preference to
those who deal at your shop?-No; but they mostly all deal there.
5928. Has each of them a ledger account in her own name with
you?-Yes.
5929. Have they generally pass-books, or do they prefer to do
without them?-They can get a passbook if they like, but they
seldom do it.
5930. Are you a landed proprietor?-I am to small extent.
5931. Are any members of your firm owners of land?-No; not
owners.
5932. Or tacksmen?-I am a tacksman of some; and we, as a firm,
are factors for one or two small properties.
5933. Are any other members of the firm tacksmen or proprietors
of land?-Not tacksmen.
5934. Or proprietors?-No. Mr. Hoseason, I think, is proprietor of
one-fifth part of a rental of £3.
5935. On the land which you hold as owner or tacksman, are there
many of the tenants who are fishermen and are employed by your
firm?-Yes, there are a great many fishermen.
5936. Are they under any obligation to fish for you, and not for
another?-Yes; we expect them fish for us in preference.
5937. That is part of the contract which they enter into for their
ground?-Yes; but it is also understood that we are to give them
the current price of the country.
5938. What are the properties of which you are tacksman?-
Aywick, in East Yell.
5939. What is the number of fishermen on that property?-There
are only four or five of them who fish to us. There are a good
many others, but they do not [Page 147] fish to us. Some of these
men go to the whale fishing, and we are not interested in it.
5940. They are not bound to fish for you if they go to the whale
fishing or to the Faroe fishing?-No; not unless we require them.
If we require them, they will give us the preference willingly.
5941. Is it part of the arrangement or understanding, that you are
entitled to prevent them from going to the whale fishing or to the
Faroe fishing if you please?-No; they are at perfect liberty to go
to the whale fishing if they prefer it.
5942. But if they engage in the home fishing they are bound to fish
to you?-Yes, if we wish it.
5943. What other properties are held in tack by you?-Sandwick,
in North Yell.
5944. How many men are upon it?-There are seven or eight
families, the heads of which are all fishermen, and they fish to us.
There is another small property called Sellafirth, in North Yell, on
which I think there are four or five men. We are also factors for
George Hoseason of Basta, in North Yell.
5945. Are the men there bound to fish to you?-They all fish to us.
They are not bound to do so; only, it is understood that they are to
fish to us.
5946. How many of them may there be?-I think six or seven.
These are all the properties of which we are tacksmen.
5947. Of what properties are you proprietor?-I am proprietor of
small place in Delting, at Mossbank.
5948. Are there many fishermen on it?-No; only three or four.
5949. Are they also expected to fish for you?-No; there is only
one of them, I think, who fishes for us.
5950. Are those fishermen in North Yell who fish for you, and
who live on the land you have mentioned, in the habit of dealing at
your shop at Gloup?-Yes; to a small extent.
5951. Are your books kept there?-No; Greenbank is the principal
place where they are kept. Gloup is fishing station in connection
with Greenbank.
5952. The shop accounts at Greenbank are balanced in the same
way against the price of the fish?-Yes.
5953. Perhaps you will make up a similar statement to that which
Mr. Adie has promised with regard to the amount of the shop
accounts and the indebtedness of the men?-Yes. The systems
pursued at Mossbank and Greenbank are a little different. At
Greenbank we hire both boat and lines to the men; while at
Mossbank the men almost all buy their lines, and hire the boat
only.
5954. How many accounts do you keep at both places?-I think
about 120 or 130 altogether, for the ling fishing.
5955. Are you engaged in the Faroe fishing?-Yes, to a small
extent.
5956. Your dealing with regard to it is similar to what Mr. Adie
has described?-Yes, quite the same.
5957. The men who go to that fishing deal at your shop in the
same way as those who go to the home fishing?-Yes.
5958. Do they generally incur as large a shop account as the men
who engage in the home fishing?-Not generally.
5959. Is that because they are young men?-Yes.
5960. But those who have families are in pretty much the same
condition as the home fishers?-Yes; there is not any material
difference as to the amount of their shop accounts.
5961. Is there anything you would like to add to what Mr. Adie has
said?-No; I think everything I have to say has been stated
already.
5962. You are not engaged in the hosiery business?-Only to a
very small extent; we do not turn over £100 of hosiery in a year.
There is one thing I should like to say about the difference in the
price of our meal and the price of meal at Lerwick. I have heard it
said that we average 8s. or 10s. higher than the price there. I may
explain, in the first place, that there was a mistake with regard to
the actual amount of difference; but at that very time the witness
spoke of there was a considerable difference caused by a sudden
rise in the price of meal in the market. At that time the meal rose
several shillings on the sack. Parties who had their meal in before
the rise could sell it without any increase of the price, if they
thought fit; but we happened to bring in meal the very week the
rise came on, so that we had to sell it at an advanced price.
5963. What was it?-I don't recollect exactly, but recollect that it
was pretty considerable. The usual difference between the price of
our meal and the price of meal in Lerwick is from 1s. 6d. to 2s. per
boll
5964. Was the difference as much as 5s.?-No, it was not so much
as that; but, from the cause I have mentioned, it may have been
considerable. I made an arrangement with a party in Lerwick this
year to send us weekly a price current of the meal in Lerwick,
because sometimes our people do complain that they are charged
more than they could get it for at Lerwick, and I wish to know how
we really act in that way. I should be glad to send that price
current for your inspection.
5965. Do you wish the prices in it to be compared with the prices
at your own shop?-Yes.
5966. How are the prices at your shop to be ascertained?-Our
books can show them.
5967. Are all the sales of meal entered in your books at the time
they take place?-Not all; but when meal is given on credit, the
price is entered in the ledger account opposite the name of the
party.
5968. You have not got your books here?-No. I was not cited to
attend to-day; but I wished to be examined, and I came forward.
5969. In what way do you arrange your ledger? Have you an
account in it for each boat's crew?-Yes.
5970. Is there also a ledger account for each individual?-Yes.
5971. In that ledger account do you enter on the one side all his
outfit and all the goods supplied to his family or to himself out of
your shop, while on the other side are entered the proceeds of his
fishing, and everything else that may be due to him?-Yes.
5972. In the case of the properties of which you are tacksman or
proprietor, the rent, I presume, goes into the debit side of the
man's account?-Yes.
5973. Is there anything else you wish to say?-No.
Brae, January 10, 1872, Rev. DUNCAN MILLER, examined.
5974. You are a clergyman of the United Presbyterian Church at
Mossbank?-I am.
5975. You have been there for a number of years?-Yes; this is
my fourteenth year.
5976. You are well acquainted with many of the fishermen and
with their families?-Yes.
5977. You are aware of the system which exists, of the payments
for the fishermen's catch being settled at long intervals, and of
accounts being run for shop goods with the merchants who buy
their fish?-Yes. I think it is necessary to make a distinction with
regard to the long accounts, because what I suppose is called the
winter fishing is paid for immediately on the fish being landed.
5978. These are the small fish taken in the winter time?-Yes.
5979. But for the summer fishing there are these long settlements I
refer to?-Yes.
5980. Have you formed any opinion as to the effects of that system
upon the habits and character of the people?-I have.
5981. What conclusion have you arrived at on that matter?-I have
arrived at the conclusion that these effects are very injurious. I
think the men are brought to depend too much upon the shop and
too much upon [Page 148] the merchant, and that in consequence
they rely too little upon themselves. One result of the system
therefore is, that there is a want of prudence amongst the men
generally. I think the pass-book system affords a fatal facility for
men getting into debt, and that many rush into it in that way who
think very little of the debt they incur. Besides, I think the present
system fosters, and has a natural tendency to produce a deceitful
character in the people. For example, they are bound by their
agreement to deliver their fish to the factor of the merchant for
whom they fish, and the result is pretty much as has been stated in
the examinations to-day, that a good many smuggle away their
fish. They think the men who purchase them-I believe they are
called yaggers-give them, a higher price, in many cases, than
they would get from their employers, and therefore they dispose of
fish which really belong to the proprietor of their boats; and all
that is done in an underhand way.
5982. Have you any knowledge about these yaggers or factors who
come about the country purchasing fish?-I have no knowledge of
them except from the fishermen's own statements.
5983. Do you understand them to be strangers travelling about the
country?-I understand them to be men-many of them, at
least,- who have boats of their own. They have perhaps a single
boat upon a station, and that gives them a right to be upon that
station; and then they can buy as many fish as they please from the
men belonging to other boats and other proprietors.
5984. Are they men who cure for themselves?-Yes; they cure
for themselves to a small extent, and increase their means by
purchasing from other boats.
5985. Do they occasionally reside in Shetland?-Yes.
5986. Are they fishermen themselves?-Yes; they are what are
called small merchants. Possibly they are not able to furnish out a
large fleet of boats, but they get one; and that one is little better
than an excuse for giving them a right to be there, and to make
purchases.
5987. Is the opinion you have arrived at with regard to the habits
of improvidence that prevail among the fishermen the result
of your own experience of particular cases.?-It is the result of
general impressions, from a comparison of a multitude of
individual cases that have come under my notice.
5988. Do the fishermen or their families with whom you come into
contact, complain or make you aware that they run into debt to the
shop to a larger extent than they ought to do?-Yes; many of them
do.
5989. Do you find, as a rule, that the ordinary fisherman is in debt
to his shop more than he is fairly able to pay at the end of his
fishing season?-I think in my own neighbourhood that is
probably the case, but of course Mr. Pole is more able to speak to
that than I am. I don't know the state of their books, but I have a
general impression that that is often the case. I think the majority
of the fishermen round Mossbank are deeper in debt than they can
hope to pay in one year.
5990. Would your opinion on that point be altered by discovering
from the books, or from the fishermen themselves, that a
considerable sum was paid to them annually in cash at
settlement?-I cannot say for the present how they stand, but I
have known when there was hardly a fisherman who was not in
debt.
5991. Was that after a bad year?-No; it was for a succession of
years. I remember about ten years ago of a very large home
fishing in the way of sillock taking, when a couple of men in a
boat were realizing upwards of £2 in a night. At that time a great
many of them got themselves out of debt who were perhaps about
£20, or from £20 to £30, involved, and I presume they have not
been so much in debt since. I cannot say exactly how long that
was ago but I think it was perhaps eight or ten years.
5992. You spoke of the men being too much dependent upon the
fish-curer under the present system: would you explain, in what
way that dependence is evidenced?-It is evidenced in a variety of
ways. There is one way in which it is pretty evident, viz. that they
never think of making any provision for the future. They know
when they go to the work, that if their character is such that they
can be expected to pay, or if they have property of such an amount
as will pay their debt, they can get goods; and it is a kind of
maxim, 'Well, there is plenty of pens and ink, and they can mark
that down.' I have known that answer returned by men when they
were accused of running too far into debt.
5993. Does that indicate a want of self-dependence?-Yes; a want
of self-dependence, and too great a dependence upon the shop.
5994. It does not prove that they are under the control of the
shopkeeper?-They are under his control.
5995. A man who is deeply in debt to a shopkeeper is of course
under the control of his creditor to, certain extent; but in what way
does that operate against the fishermen?-I think they become
dispirited. They never think of paying their debt, and it paralyzes
their energies.
5996. Do you think a fisherman who is in debt in that way is
induced to engage for the season with the fish-curer on
disadvantageous terms, or that he is induced to continue his
dealings at the merchant's shop, when he might do better for
himself otherwise?-Yes, I think that when he forms an
engagement in that way his energies are paralyzed in prosecuting
his calling, and that he will not fish with the same energy as if he
were free men. He knows that whatever amount he may earn at
the fishing, still his debt will hang about his neck. He will not be
able to pay it. But I am not quite sure that I apprehend your
question. I am speaking rather of the way in which the fact of a
man being in debt paralyzes his energies.
5997. I was rather anxious to see how the fact of him being in debt
operated to put him under the control of a fish-merchant so as to
induce him to make a worse bargain than he would otherwise do,
or to continue dealing at the merchant's shop, and to get his
payment in goods, while he might be doing better with ready
money?-The way in which I would understand the system
operates injuriously in that case is, that if man is in debt to a
merchant, the merchant, if he wishes the man to fish, has no more
to do than to say to him, 'I will roup you off: you will be without
the possibility of holding land, and your cows will be taken. You
will get no manure; you cannot cultivate your land profitably
without it, and you will just have to begin the world again a new
man.' Now a man with a family, and probably a pretty large
family, cannot afford to do that.
5998. Is there a feeling among the fishermen that they are in any
way under an obligation, either a tacit understanding or an actual
obligation-to deal at the fish-curer's shop for their goods?-
There is a tacit understanding, at least, that they must do that; but I
believe that is induced by the circumstance, that for large portion
of the year their money is in the merchants' hands, and that again
affords the kind of facility for running into debt which I have
spoken of.
5999. Do you think that makes them incur larger debts than they
otherwise would do?-I think so.
6000. Can you suggest any remedy for this state of things?-The
remedy I would suggest is this: that the payments be as prompt as
possible, and that they be cash payments. I am quite ready to state
how I think the cash payments would operate. At present the
fishermen's money is all in the merchants' hands; but he is
requiring goods in the meantime, and he has no money to procure
them with, and therefore he goes to the merchant and procures
his goods. The merchant is under no constraint,-he can put his
own price on the articles which he sells; and of course, where
there is a credit system like the present, there are a large number of
defaulters. These defaulters do not pay their own debts; but the
merchant must live notwithstanding, and therefore the honest men
have to pay for the defaulters. The merchant could not carry on
his business unless [Page 149] that were done. He must have his
losses covered; and system of that sort tells very heavily upon the
public, because the merchant must charge a large margin of profit.
Now I think the ready-money system would be more favourable
for both parties,-because, suppose I were a merchant and dealing
in ready money, I might turn over my capital three times a year,
and I might have a profit every time, or three several profits; but if
my money is lying out in debts, then it is perfectly clear that I must
have as large a profit upon one turnover of my capital as under the
other system, I would have upon the three, only I might have a
little more trouble in turning it over three times instead of once.
That is the reason why I think it would be beneficial to the
merchant. On the other hand, I think it would be beneficial to the
fishermen, because if the merchant turns over his capital three
times, and has a profit on each time, then the profit which he could
afford to charge would be less, and the men would get their goods
cheaper.
6001. Are you in a position to state, as a matter of opinion, from
your own experience, that the prices charged at the shops of these
merchants are higher than they are at others where that system
does not prevail?-I am not personally cognisant of that. I have
bought some things at the shops here, and I thought they were
charged higher; but I get my goods from Edinburgh-half a year's
provisions at a time-so that I cannot testify from personal
experience as to the difference in that respect.
6002. Is it not a very common thing in Shetland for families to get
their supplies from Edinburgh?-I don't think it is general.
6003. I don't mean the families of fishermen; but is it not a
common thing for people of a higher class to get their supplies
from the south?-Yes, from Edinburgh or Aberdeen; but in my
own case there is reason for sending to Edinburgh, over and above
any difference in price. There are many articles I require which
are not to be had here, and I have to send south before I can get
such articles as are suitable for me.
6004. Have you anything to say with regard to the system pursued
in the hosiery business here?-I don't think it is conducted with
that amount of discrimination which it ought to be conducted with.
In my neighbourhood there is very little done in hosiery; but the
hosiery goods are just like a penny piece,-you know what they
are; it does not matter whether the article is good or bad,-there is
just a fixed price for it. That being the case, people don't put
themselves to much trouble in order to procure a good article.
6005. Do you think the women would be better off if they were to
get payment for their goods in cash?-I think so. I think it would
be beneficial to have transactions in cash in hosiery as well as in
everything else.
6006. Do you know any cases of women who have been making
hosiery, and who have been in distress for want of money although
they were able to get goods for their hosiery?-I know that they
prefer money. I cannot say about their having been in distress.
Many persons have come to my wife and have brought hosiery
goods because they would get money from her for them. They
often require money for purposes that goods will not answer, and
in such cases they frequently come to Mrs. Miller and endeavour
to get her to buy them.
6007. Is it a common thing in Shetland, that the women would
rather go to a private party and get money for their goods than take
them to a merchant?-Yes; there are a great many purposes for
which money is required. Suppose a parent wished to pay his
child's school fees, or anything of that sort, of course cotton goods
would not pay for that; only the money would do. But the hosiery
is a very unimportant branch of business in our neighbourhood.
<Adjourned>
Hillswick, Northmaven: Thursday, January 11, 1872.
<Present>-Mr. Guthrie.
WILLIAM BLANCE, examined.
6008. You are a fisherman at Ollaberry?-I am.
6009. Have you a piece of land there?-Yes.
6010. Who is your landlord?-Mr. Anderson of Hillswick.
6011. For whom do you fish?-For Mr. Adie. I have fished for
him in the summer season for the last six years.
6012. Are you at perfect liberty to fish for any person you like?-I
have had that liberty since I came to Ollaberry.
6013. Have you not always had it?-Before that time I was south.
It is only within the last six years I have been going to the fishing.
6014. Are the people at Ollaberry at liberty to fish for any person
they like?-I don't know whether I can answer that question.
6015. Why?-Because I should like to speak only of my own
experience. I have not been bound myself, and another man might
tell me a true statement, or he might tell me a false statement.
6016. Then your own experience is that a man is free?-I have
been free for the last six years while I have been at the Faroe
fishing. During that time I have had my freedom
6017. Was it because you went to the Faroe fishing that you had
your freedom?-I could not go to the ling-fishing.
6018. Why?-For certain reasons of my own. My own bodily
ability was one.
6019. Does it require a stronger man to go to the ling-fishing than
to the Faroe fishing?-It requires healthy people, I suppose.
6020. Are healthy people required more in the ling fishing than in
the Faroe fishing?-Yes.
6021. Do you know whether your neighbours at Ollaberry are at
liberty to fish to any person they please in the ling fishing?-They
are supposed to fish for their landlord.
6022. Do you understand that that is a part of the bargain under
which they hold their ground?-I don't know; but I believe it is,
from hearsay.
6023. Were you told so yourself when you took your ground?-My
landlord told me he wished my fish, and I told him I could not give
them to him.
6024. And you went to the Faroe fishing instead?-Yes.
6025. Do you consider that if you went to the home fishing you
would be at liberty to engage with any fish-merchant who offered
you a good wage?-[No answer.]
6026. Why do you hesitate to answer that question? You must
have some idea about it?-I would not consider myself at liberty
until I inquired at my land-master.
6027. Is that the way with the other fishermen at Ollaberry too:
have they told you that that is the obligation under which they
lie?-They might have told me, but I forget.
6028. Do you believe that it is the obligation under which they
lie?- If you hesitate to answer that question, I must ask you the
reason why you hesitate so [Page 150] much?-Well, I believe it is
the understanding that they must fish to the master.
6029. When did you receive your citation to come here?-On 9th
January.
6030. Have you spoken to any one on the subject since?-Yes.
6031. To whom?-I could not read the writing, and I asked a man
to read it for me.
6032. Who was that man?-Mr. William Irvine.
6033. Is he Mr. Anderson's shopkeeper at Ollaberry?-Yes.
6034. Did you go to the shop for the purpose of asking him to read
it to you?-I had other errands besides that.
6035. But you were at the shop, and you asked him?-Yes.
6036. Did he read it to you?-Yes.
6037. Did you say anything to him about it?-I told him I did not
understand it, and I would like if he would explain it.
6038. Did he explain it?-Yes.
6039. What did he tell you about it?-He said I need not be afraid
to go, and that I should tell the truth.
6040. Was that all that passed?-I don't remember anything else.
6041. Had you much conversation on the subject?-Oh no.
6042. Did he tell you what you would be asked about?-The
special thing he told me I would be asked about would be what
had taken place between me and himself.
6043. What did he tell you about that?-He told me to take
any books with me, as I was requested to take pass-books or
documents.
6044. Did he tell you that the principal thing you would be asked
about would be your dealings with the man you were fishing to?-
Yes.
6045. That is Mr Adie?-Yes.
6046. Did he tell you you would be asked anything about your
dealings with your landlord?-No; he told me nothing about that.
I asked him if there was any use taking my land receipt, and he
said he did not think there was. That was all that passed about it.
6047. Was that all that passed between you about anything?-All
that I remember.
6048. I am asking you these questions, only because you hesitated
so much in some of your answers. You said the people at
Ollaberry were under an obligation to fish for their landlord?-
As I supposed.
6049. In point of fact, do all the men there who go to the home
fishing fish for Mr. Anderson?-I cannot say whether all of them
do it.
6050. Do you know whether most of them do it?-I cannot tell.
6051. Are you acquainted with all the people in Ollaberry?-No; I
have only been four years there. I am a stranger on that side, so
that I don't know many of the people.
6052. Do you know most of the people within a mile or two of
you?-I don't think I do. I could not mention them by name.
6053. But you have spoken to most of them?-I think I have.
6054. Do they all fish for Mr. Anderson in the home fishing?-[No
answer.]
6055. Do you know, or do you not? If you do not know, say so?-
I believe they do; but I don't know.
6056. Have you ever known any man who wished to engage to
another fish-curer, or to cure his own fish, or sell his fish as he
pleased, during the season in Ollaberry?-No; there are none of
the men who do that.
6057. Do you keep a shop account with Mr. Adie at Voe?-My
dealings are there, for the most part.
6058. Is there any shop of Mr. Adie's nearer to your house than
Voe?-I cannot say.
6059. How far is it to Voe from your house?-I have heard it
called thirteen miles; but I don't know.
6060. Are you married?-Yes.
6061. Have you a family?-Yes.
6062. Where do you buy your provisions?-I buy provisions in
Voe, or in any other shop, just as suits my convenience.
6063. Do you sometimes buy them at the Ollaberry shop?-
Sometimes.
6064. Anywhere else besides Voe?-Yes, I buy sometimes at
other places. I have bought something at Mr. Anderson's shop at
Hillswick.
6065. Anywhere else?-Yes, I have had some things elsewhere
too.
6066. Where?-At Usiness, at Mr. Gilbert Nicholson's.
6067. Has he a shop of his own there?-Yes; shop is his own, so
far as I know.
6068. But you get most of your provisions at Voe, and you keep an
account in Mr. Adie's books all the year round, which is settled
about the end of the year?-Yes.
6069. Is the settlement always before the New Year, or is it
sometimes later?-Sometimes it is later, but it is generally
before.