the crops which it yields?-Yes; we cannot afford to sell any crop
with which to pay our rent. If we were to sell the crop for that
purpose, we would be deprived of what we have to live upon. The
farms are very small, and we require the whole of the crops for our
own use. In some years they have not been sufficient to keep us
for half the year.
4420. Then the state of matters is, that you live principally by your
fishing, and that your farm is an extra source of employment, or an
extra means of [Page 110] living for part of the year?-Yes; some
years, when there has been a good crop, it may serve us almost or
altogether for the whole of the year; then the fishing pays the rent,
and we may have some balance over to help us otherwise. In a
poor year I have had experience of it, when our crops could only
serve us for six months, and then we had to buy meal for the other
six months. In that case the fishing had to do the best it could to
pay both the land rent and the meal.
4421. Then your difficulty is, that you are both fishermen and
farmers?-Yes; if the land was let at its real value, at what it was
actually worth, and we had a lease of it, and were allowed at the
same time to make the best of our fishing, we all believe that our
circumstances would be improved.
4422. Suppose that were the case, there would then be no
obligation upon you to deal at any shop, but you could go where
you liked for your goods?-Yes; and we could make the best of
our fishing at the same time.
4423. You could sell your fish to whom you pleased, making your
own price?-Yes.
4424. Would it be any advantage to you to cure your own fish?-
We believe it would; and we know it, because there are some of
our neighbours who do it. There are people here who can speak to
that.
4425. Don't you think the curing is better done when it is done
upon a large scale, than when a fisherman cures his own fish upon
the beach, with insufficient materials and apparatus, and perhaps
not with the same skill as people who are engaged in doing that
and nothing else?-With regard to the skill, none of them can
show us how to cure fish better than we could do ourselves.
4426. None of whom?-None of those who now cure them, and
who have the large fishings. We know how to cure them as well
as they do. We see how they are curing them now, and many of us
have cured fish before, so that we know quite well about it.
4427. Do you get as good a price for your fish when you cure them
yourselves as when they are cured by fish-curers?-We have not
had a chance to cure them ourselves.
4428. But you say you know about it by experience?-Yes. There
are neighbours curing their own fish near where I live. Laurence
Shewan is one.
4429. Is he a fisherman like yourself?-Yes.
4430. Does he cure his own fish?-Yes.
4431. How long has he done so?-I never remember him doing
anything else. There are others who cure them besides him.
4432. Is he better off than his neighbours, in consequence
of having liberty to cure his own fish?-There are other
circumstances as well which doubtless render him better off, but
that must improve his circumstances too.
4433. Where does he live?-At Gord. John Shewan, Scatness,
also cures his own fish himself. Laurence Shewan's fish were
purchased this year by Mr. Gilbert Irvine, and put into Mr. Bruce's
store; and I heard Mr. Irvine say that they were very good fish.
4434. Have you ever compared with any of your neighbours their
profits by curing their own fish with you own takings by selling
your fish green?-I have not; but there are other witnesses present
who have done so.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, LAURENCE SMITH, examined.
4435. Are you a fisherman at Trosswick, and a tenant of land
under Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh?-Yes.
4436. How far is Trosswick from Toab, where William Goudie
lives?-It is between two and three miles farther north.
4437. Have you heard the evidence which Goudie has given?-
Yes. It is all correct, so far as I know.
4438. You have heard his description of the way in which the fish
are delivered, and the way in which you hold your land, and the
way in which you purchase goods at the shop at Dunrossness, and
settle for them. Is that all correct?-It is.
4439. You deal in the same way with Mr. Bruce and his
shopkeeper?-Yes. I have very little concern with the store at
Grutness, because Mr. Bruce has another store at the place where I
deliver my fish, which is called Voe.
4440. What is the shopkeeper's name there?-Henry Isbister.
4441. Is that shop near Boddam?-Yes, it is just at Boddam.
4442. Is that store managed in much the same way Goudie has
described with regard to the store at Grutness?-No, not exactly in
the same way. Most of the things which are kept there are much
the same as in other places.
4443. Do you mean that the quality of the goods is the same?-
Yes, it is much the same as elsewhere.
4444. And you don't complain of the prices there?-No, not of the
things that I deal in myself.
4445. What are these-meal and tea?-No; I deal very little in
these things there, because it has pleased God that I could mend
myself in another way.
4446. In what way?-By going to another store.
4447. Then you are not obliged to deal with that store at all?-No,
I am not obliged to go to that store unless I like.
4448. Is that because you have ready money with which to buy at
another store?-Exactly.
4449. You have always got some money in your hands?-Yes.
4450. Do you sometimes buy in Lerwick?-Yes.
4451. But you also buy at Mr. Bruce's store at Voe?-Yes; some
trifling things, such as rope or iron hoop, or the like of that; and
these are sold at much the same prices there as I can get them for
at other places.
4452. Do you pay for them in ready money?-No.
4453. They are put into your account and settled for at the end of
the year?-Yes.
4454. Where do you get your provisions?-I get them sometimes
at Gavin Henderson's, and sometimes at Lerwick.
4455. What do you pay for meal by the boll at Henderson's?-I
could not exactly say, because I don't have to run an account for
that. Generally I pay for it at once.
4456. Then, at settling time with Mr Bruce, do you generally get a
large balance in cash?-Whether it is large or small, I get it in
cash at the beginning of the year, at the settling time.
4457. Do you sometimes get advances in the course of the year
while the fishing is going on?-Sometimes I do, if I require them.
4458. Have you often asked for advances of that kind?-I have.
4459. Have they ever been refused?-Never. I always got them
when I had money coming to me.
4460. Do you mean that you always got them when he was due
you money?-Yes. Sometimes, even if he had been due me a little
money, he might not perhaps have had money beside him to
supply me with; but when he had it I always got it, whether I had it
to get or not.
4461. What has been the amount of money due to you for fish
during the last two or three years?-I have a few receipts here
which will show that. [Produces accounts.]
4462. This account [showing] is for 1870; and it contains rent, £6;
roads, 4s. 6d.; poor-rate, 9s.: is that the tenant's half?-Yes.
4463. Then there is a charge, 'To share of rent of hill:' is that the
scattald which you hold along with your neighbours?-Yes; and
which the neighbouring landlord is not taking a rent for at all. It
all runs scattald together.
4464. Is the neighbouring landlord Mr. Bruce of Simbister?-Yes.
4465. On his land, does the rent of the scattald come [Page 111]
into the rent of the farms?-There is no rent paid for the scattald at
all on his land. It is used in the same way by all the tenants.
4466. When was the additional payment charged against you first
for scattald?-Two years ago.
4467. Then there is cash for kirk seats, 3s.: why do you pay your
kirk seats through your landlord?-I have paid them all along
through him.
4468. Then there is-To account in Boddam shop, 18s. 61/2d.; to
account in Grutness shop, 1s. 9d.; and then on April 25, by cash,
£6, 14s. 7d.: that shows that you had not settled until April 25th?-
Yes.
4469. Are you often as late as that in settling?-No; that was the
latest I ever knew.
4470. Was it your fault that the settlement was so late?-No; I
should have liked to have settled sooner.
4471. Do you know any reason why you could not have settled
sooner, even in November, when the fishing was over?-I don't
know any reason for that, except that they did not want to do it.
That is the only way in which I can account for it.
4472. Have you asked for a settlement to be made with you at that
time?-I have not; because I thought there was no use doing it.
4473. There are entries here-by saith, by ling, by cod: were these
for small fish caught during the winter?-There was a company of
men who were pursuing the herring fishing; one part of the
company were trying to prosecute the saith fishing for a time, until
the others saw whether there were any herring to be got, and my
proportion was one-twelfth share of the fish caught at the time.
4474. That was an extra thing altogether?-Yes; and each man's
proportion was put in his account.
4475. Is the amount of cash paid you, £6, 14s. 7d., a usual sort of
sum for you to get at settlement?-No; it is sometimes smaller.
Sometimes it is nothing at all, and I have been in debt.
4476. Has that happened often?-Yes, it happened frequently for
some years before that. I have no accounts for these years.
4477. I see that in 1865 there is marked a balance of £2, 1s. 5d.
Was that a balance which was due by you the year before?-Yes.
4478. Then 1864 had been a bad year, and Mr. Bruce had
advanced you money above the price of your fish for that year?-
Yes.
4479. Was that money advanced to you after settlement?-No; it
was a balance that had been carried over some years before.
4480. When that balance was existing, did you consider yourself
obliged to deal in Mr. Bruce's shop rather than at another?-I was
obliged so far to deal at his shop, because I could not think of
going to another man and asking credit from him, when I saw no
way of making provision to pay him. I could not expect any man
to supply me in my necessity when I had no possible way of
repaying him.
4481. But you were already in Mr. Bruce's debt?-Yes, at that
time I was.
4482. Would you have been bound by that, supposing you had not
been bound by the terms on which you held your land, to deliver
your fish to Mr. Bruce, and to deal at his store?-No, I don't
believe I would, if I had been at liberty to deal elsewhere at any
other time.
4483. Have you ever paid any fines or liberty money for yourself
or for any of your family?-None whatever.
4484. Have you understood that you were liable to pay such
fines?-I understood that I was liable to pay a fine or to receive a
warning if I did not fish for my landlord.
4485. But would you have been liable to pay anything besides
being afraid of being removed?-I don't know anything about that.
4486. In 1865 you had got cash advances to the amount of £10, 7s.
2d., and your account at Mr. Bruce's store that year was only about
30s?-Yes.
4487. I suppose in that state of matters, you are pretty well content
with the state of things as they are?-I might be well enough
content with the state of things as they are, only I am bound to fish
for him alone, and for no other man.
4488. But you are not bound to deal at his store?-No; I don't
believe he compels any man to be bound to his store entirely.
4489. Is there really any compulsion, either direct or indirect, to
deal at his store?-No; not so far as I know.
4490. Even although you are in his debt, you are not bound to deal
at his store?-No; I don't believe he would oblige me to do that.
4491. But you have as much credit to deal at another man's store
as at his,-I mean you get an account opened as readily at another
man's store as at Mr. Bruce's?-Yes.
4492. When you are in debt to Mr. Bruce, is it as easy for you to
open an account at Mr. Henderson's store, and to get goods on
credit there, as to get goods Mr. Bruce's shop?-I might find it as
easy, only I don't know whether Mr. Henderson would be inclined
to give it to me.
4493. Do you think Mr. Henderson would not be as willing to give
it to you as Mr. Bruce's man at Voe?-I think he would not, if he
saw no way by which I was likely to pay him.
4494. Mr. Henderson, I understand, does not buy fish?-He does.
4495. But he knows that you would not be at liberty to sell your
fish to him?-Yes, he knows that.
4496. Do you think you would get a better price for your fish if
you were selling them to him?-I don't believe I would get any
worse.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, HENRY GILBERTSON, examined.
4497. You are a fisherman at Dunrossness?-I am.
4498. Have you a piece of ground of your own?-I am not a
landholder. I live with my sister and brother-in-law.
4499. I have received a letter from Dunrossness, dated 30th
December and signed Henry Gilbertson: was that letter written by
you?-No. There is another person of that name living at
Dunrossness.
4500. How do you distinguish yourself from him?-I am a
fisherman, and he is a tailor.
4501. Is he a relation of yours?-He is my cousin.
4502. You have heard the evidence of William Goudie to-day: do
you know from your own experience that it is in the main
correct?-So far as my experience goes, I could not say that he has
deviated a single word from the truth.
4503. Were you, when young, employed as a beach boy?-No. I
would not go, because if they had bound me to that, I would have
left the island, as I did.
4504. Did you leave in order to avoid being employed as a beach
boy?-It was not exactly for that; but I was past being a beach boy
before Mr. Bruce took the fishing.
4505. You have now come back there, and employ yourself as a
fisherman in Mr. Bruce's boats?-Yes.
4506. Are you settled with at the end of the year?-Yes; in the
same way as the landholders are settled with.
4507. Do you run an account at the store in the same way, also?-
Yes, sometimes; but I am under no obligation to do so, because I
am a man who can get credit at any place.
4508. Do you consider yourself at liberty to fish for any person you
please to engage with?-Not at all. Although I sit as a lodger in
my brother-in-law's house, I am under the same obligation to fish
for Mr. Bruce as one who is a landholder.
4509. How is that?-Because if I did not do so, my brother-in-law
would be warned out for my offence.
4510. How do you know that?-Because I have evidence to prove
it in the case of a brother of my brother-in-law's, who dried a few
hundredweight of fish for himself, and for that offence his father
was warned out, and had to pay a fine of 31s. 6d. before he got
liberty to sit.
[Page 112]
4511. What was his name?-James Harper, sen.
4512. Was that long ago?-Six or seven years ago. I could not say
exactly to a season back or forward.
4513. Did you know of that case at the time from Harper
himself?-Yes, I was acquainted with the circumstance, and the
day before I came here the man told me he had to pay the money.
4514. So that has served you as a warning, since you came back to
live with your brother-in-law, that you must fish to Mr. Bruce?-
Yes.
4515. Do you think you would be better off if you were at liberty
to deliver your fish to any merchant you liked?-I would.
4516. In what way?-Because I could make more of them.
4517. Would you get a larger price for your fish?-Yes. I would
perhaps get a larger price; but then I would have a great advantage
too by curing them for myself.
4518. Do you think that would really be a great advantage?-
Decidedly; and I can prove it by the case of a man who has
prosecuted the fishing with me this very season, Laurence Leslie. I
was one of the crew with him.
4519. Don't you think he was particularly fortunate last year, and
that very often your fish might be spoiled in curing, and would not
bring so good a price?-We have all cured our fish before, and we
never lost anything worth speaking of in that way.
4520. Where have you cured your fish before?-In the same place
where I now live.
4521. Was that before these restrictions were laid upon the
tenantry?-Yes; one year before and one year since the restrictions
were laid on.
4522. Then you have done it since without being challenged?-
Yes; but it was by their own good-will that they allowed me to do
it.
4523. You had some favour shown you?-Yes.
4524. How did that happen?-They just told me they would not
disturb me, as I was a young man, and could either stop or go as I
thought fit.
4525. If you had been a tenant, you think you would not have had
the same liberty?-No, I would not.
4526. You say you can get the same credit at any other store that
you can get at Mr. Bruce's: do you mean that you can open an
account and get your things without paying for them until the end
of the season?-Yes.
4527. Can you do so at Gavin Henderson's store, for instance?-
Yes; or in Lerwick.
4528. But does the merchant with whom you would open an
account of that sort not know that you fish for Mr. Bruce, that you
are bound to deliver all your fish to him, and that you may at the
same time be running an account at his shop which would have a
preference at settlement over any account you might open in
Lerwick or at Henderson's?-I generally give them to understand
how I am circumstanced, and they advance me accordingly.
4529. Do you generally have a large balance in cash to receive
when settling with Mr. Bruce?-I have only prosecuted the fishing
there for three years; I have settled for two of these years, and for
this one I have not settled yet.
4530. Do you get an account when you settle with him?-Yes; I
have got a copy of it for one year. [Produces it.]
4531. Do you get that as a matter of course when you are settling
with Mr. Bruce?-I asked for it, and he did not refuse to give it to
me.
4532. This account is for the settlement which took place in April
last?-Yes.
4533. It shows-June 27, 1870, to cash for self, £1; Sept. 16, to
cash for self, £1; Dec. 22, to amount to credit of Paul Smith: what
does that mean?-It was a small sum I advanced a brother-in-law
of mine to help him to pay his rent. It was entered from my
account into his, and was the same as cash.
4534. Jan. 6, to cash for self, 10s.; to fine for swine, 2s. 6d.: what
was that fine for?-The landlord has a law that if you allow your
swine to go at large, and the officer for that purpose catches them
outside your house loose, he imposes a fine of 2s. 6d. upon you for
each offence.
4535. Is that law in the regulations of lease, or is it just an
understood thing?-It is understood to be a law that he has made.
4536. But you are not a landholder?-No; but the swine belonged
to me.
4537. Then there is, to a ticket and medal for 1871, 3s.: that is for
the Fishermen's Society?-Yes.
4538. March 15, to account per Henry Gilbertson, 3s. 4d.: what
was that?-That was a small balance that was advanced by him for
me to the other Henry Gilbertson.
4539. To 11/2 bushels salt from Scatness, 1s. 6d., by amount from
boat's account, £19, 4s. 31/2d.: that was the amount of your
earnings?-Yes.
4540. How many others were there in the boat?-There were six.
4541. Then, to account in Grutness, £3, 8s. 21/2d., to cash, £10, 15s.
81/2d.; in all £19, 4s. 31/2d.: that was the whole of your account for
that year?-Yes.
4542. Have you anything to say about the prices of the things you
get at Grutness store?-They are rather above the figure usually
paid for the same things in other parts of the country.
4543. Have you compared the prices there with the prices at which
you can get the same articles elsewhere?-Yes; for instance of
meal.
4544. Have you bought meal there?-Yes.
4545. Was it entered in the account you have shown me?-Yes;
but all my account at the shop, whatever it was for, was entered in
that account in one slump sum, so that the price cannot be
distinguished from that. There are no details given there of the
shop account.
4546. Were the details of that account read over to you?-Yes; or I
read it over.
4547. Did you find it to be correct?-Yes, generally.
4548. But you think the meal was charged higher than it could be
got for elsewhere?-I am sure of it.
4549. Do you remember what price it was charged at?-Yes.
4550. Did you take a note of it at the time?-I took a note of the
quantity at the time; but I did not know the price until settlement.
4551. Have you a pass-book at the store?-[Produces pass-book.]
That is what I keep for myself. These [showing] are the entries for
1870, the year to which the account applies. When I knew the
price of an article when I received it from the store, I put it down
in ink; but I did not know the price of the meal, and I put it down
in pencil when I came to settle.
4552. Here [showing] is half boll oatmeal, 11s?-Yes; and these
are the ranging prices in Lerwick for the same year: March 1870,
per boll oatmeal, 17s. 9d. May, 18s. 6d.; July, 20s.; August, 21s.
4553. Where did you get these?-I got them from a merchant in
Lerwick this morning, Mr. John Robertson, sen. The note
containing them is in his own handwriting.
4554. Did he refer to his books before telling you what the prices
were?-Yes, he turned up his accounts for that year.
4555. And these are the prices at which he told you he sold meal
here?-Yes.
4556. For cash or for credit?-I cannot say.
4557. Have you ever been directed by Mr. Bruce or Mr. Irvine to
look after men who were supposed to be selling their fish to other
curers?-I have.
4558. You shake your head in a very serious way at that: did you
not like the job?-I did not.
4559. When was it that you were told to do that?-At last
settlement.
4560. That would be in April 1870?-Yes.
4561. Were there some men who were supposed to be inclined to
sell their fish to some others?-Yes.
4562. Was any particular man named to you, or was it just a
general direction to look after them?-There was just a general
direction given to us to inform them of any men who did so.
[Page 113]
4563. Did you keep a lookout for that?-No; I have not gone to
look yet.
4564. Have you seen any of the men endeavouring to sell their fish
to other people-to Messrs. Hay & Co. for instance, or to Mr.
Gavin Henderson?-I have seen them selling to Messrs. Hay &
Co.
4565. Were these the small fish caught in the winter, or were they
part of the catch of the boats that went to the summer fishing and
the haaf fishing?-They were the small fish caught in the winter. I
never saw any of the summer fish sold by any of Mr. Bruce's
tenants to Messrs. Hay & Co.
4566. I suppose there is a greater inclination to sell the small fish
caught in the winter for ready money than the summer fish?-Yes.
4567. Why are the men readier to do that?-Because, when they
sell their fish to Messrs. Hay & Co., the merchant knows what he
intends to give for them; and daily and nightly, when the fish have
been delivered, they go to Hay & Co.'s store and get the value for
them, and there is no more about it.
4568. They settle for them at once?-Yes,
4569. In money or in goods?-Generally in goods; but Messrs.
Hay's man will give them a shilling or so; whereas, if they had to
go to Mr. Bruce's store with them, they would not know what they
were to get until the settlement, neither would they get the goods
at so low a figure.
4570. They get the goods cheaper at Hay & Co.'s?-Yes, a little.
4571. Is there any other article than meal the price of which you
have compared with what it could be got for at other stores?-Not
particularly, because I have not had much dealings at the store, as I
generally dealt with other merchants.
4572. Is there anything else you wish to add to what you have said
or to what the other men have said?-Nothing particular.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, JOHN HARPER, examined.
4573. Are you a fisherman at Lingord, Dunrossness?-I am.
4574. Do you hold land there under Mr Bruce of Sumburgh?-
Yes.
4575. Do you hold it subject to the condition of delivering your
fish to Mr. Bruce in the same way that the other men have spoken
to?-Yes.
4576. You have heard the evidence of William Goudie, Laurence
Smith, and Henry Gilbertson?-Yes.
4577. Have they described correctly the way in which you deal at
Mr. Bruce's shop for goods?-Quite correctly, so far as my
experience goes.
4578. Do you deal in the same way?-Yes; but I deal very little
there.
4579. Where do you get your goods?-I get them at different
places, but my chief dealings are at Gavin Henderson's. I have
also some dealings at Mr. Bruce's store at Boddam, kept by Henry
Isbister, which is close beside where I live.
4580. Do you generally receive a large balance at the end of the
year in cash?-Yes, I am always paid in cash.
4581. How much of a balance in cash did you get last year?-I
cannot remember exactly; and I have no copy of my account.
4582. Was it £5 or £6, or more?-I think it was £5 or £6, and the
rest of my earnings went to pay my land rent and shop accounts.
4583. Have you made any comparison as to the prices of goods at
the Boddam shop and the prices at which you could get them
elsewhere?-I have not made a strict comparison, but the Boddam
shop and the other shops do not differ much in most things.
4584. Have you anything to add to what has been said by the other
witnesses?-We would be very happy to have the liberty of curing
our fish ourselves.
4585. Have you tried that?-Yes; I have tried it in former times
before I was taken under Mr. Bruce.
4586. Where was that?-At the same place where I am fishing yet.
4587. You had your liberty then?-Yes.
4588. Do you think that in those days you made a larger profit on
your fish than you do now?-I did; but there would be a difficulty
in doing that now, unless we had the power of using the beaches to
dry our fish on. If we did not have that power, we could make
nothing of it at all
4589. In those days the price of fish would be quite different from
what it is now? It would be much lower when you used to cure
your own fish?-In the former part of the time when I used to cure
them it was lower than it is now, and indeed it was rather lower all
through. I don't know exactly what those that cured their own fish
this year have got for dried fish, but I think I got 10s. 6d. per cwt.
of dried saith of my own curing during the last year when I cured
them.
4590. What is the price now for cured fish?-I have heard that it is
12s.
4591. I suppose there was not much difference in those days in the
price of cured fish?-No; but it did differ according to seasons.
Every season was not exactly alike.
4592. Would that be twelve years ago?-Yes.
4593. In what way have you calculated that you would make more
profit upon the fish of your own curing than is paid to you by Mr.
Bruce?-I have just made a calculation in my own mind according
to the quantity of fish I caught then and what I catch now. It is
merely a calculation of my own, and I do not say it is exactly
correct.
4594. Did you make that calculation lately?-No; only I have
always been of that opinion since I was obliged to deliver my fish
to Mr. Bruce.
4595. Have you not made a note of the value of your green fish,
the expense of materials for curing, and the value of the labour
that you would require to put upon them, in order to ascertain
whether you would get as much for your cured fish as you do for
your green, or more?-I have paid some attention to that matter;
but of course, in any case where a man dries his fish for himself,
he must expect to have a little more work than he has when
delivering them green. There would thus be extra expense for my
own labour.
4596. There would also be the price for salt, and other things
required, in the curing?-Yes; we would have to calculate all
these things.
4597. Would you not be at a disadvantage from not having vats
and other apparatus suitable for curing?-There would be rather
a disadvantage in that way now, but there was not such a
disadvantage formerly, because we had these things; and when we
were stopped from curing for ourselves, we had to dispose of them
as we had no use for them.
4598. Did each fisherman commonly possess these things?-Yes,
at that time.
4599. Or was it each boat's crew who owned these implements?-
Yes.
4600. Each boat's crew had a supply of apparatus for curing their
fishing?-Yes, for their own use. They generally had a vat and
other instruments according to what they required.
4601. Do you think they were as skilful in the use of these
instruments as the curers are now?-I don't think they were very
much behind, because the curer who cures the fish we catch now
was formerly a fisherman, as I am myself. Further than the
experience of years may have taught him, he knew nothing better
about it than I did, for I cured fish when I was a beach boy, and I
was also the head in it all through, until I was stopped from curing.
4602. In forming that opinion with regard to the profit which you
would have by curing your own fish, have you taken into account
the risk of having your own fish spoiled in the curing?-Of course
we must run that risk.
4603. Then you might gain something in one year, but in another
you might lose to some extent in the [Page 114] curing?-That is
quite possible; but still, in the experience I formerly had, the loss
was nothing to speak of.
4604. For how many years did you cure your own fish?-For a
good many, perhaps five years. There is one thing I should like to
state which has not been mentioned already; but I don't exactly
know how far it will fall within your inquiry. That is about the
days' works which are required from us in addition to our land
rent.
4605. What do you mean by days' works?-It is labour imposed
upon the tenants by the landlord. They must work three days'
work in summer. We don't exactly work these days' works in
summer where we live; but we are bound to carry a boat of peats
to those who live near Sumburgh, which stands in place of our
three days in summer. Then we have to work three days in
harvest, and three days in vore (<i.e.> spring). Thirty hours, if I
remember right, is what they exact; and we get nothing for it, not
even a supply of victuals. We have to carry our victuals with us
when we are to do our work there.
4606. Is not that really part of the rent which you pay for your
land?-We don't suppose so, because our land is valued, and we
have to pay for it in cash, or it is taken off our account.
4607. You mean that you have to pay your rent in cash, and to give
the days' works besides?-Yes; and we have to pay a poultry fowl
for each merk of land.
4608. Is not that really just part of your bargain for the land?-It is
the way we have done hitherto.
4609. If you were agreed, would not the landlord commute these
services and payments into a money payment. You might make a
bargain to give him so much money, and thus get rid of these
things?-I have never disputed these things; but I believe they
have been spoken of to him, and he does not appear willing to
relieve us of the burden, which we think is rather hard one.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, GEORGE LESLIE, examined.
4610. Are you a fisherman and tenant under Mr. Bruce at Mill of
Garth, Dunrossness?-I am a fisherman, but not exactly a tenant.
4611. You don't hold land?-It is much the same. The land is
held in my father's name, and I live with him.
4612. Are you bound to fish to Mr. Bruce, as being one of your
father's family?-Yes.
4613. You have heard the evidence of William Goudie and the
other witnesses from Dunrossness. Do you think it is generally
correct?-I think it is generally correct; but Laurence Smith did
not appear to know much about the shop at Boddam, except for
ropes and iron, and so on, which is much about the same price as
elsewhere.
4614. Can you say anything more about that shop than he did?-
The tea, cotton, canvas, and moleskins are all much higher there
than at Henderson's. I have no note of the price at Henderson's;
but I have notes of the prices at Boddam in my pass-books.
4615. What is the price of moleskins at the Boddam shop?-I
don't know if I have the price of any moleskins here.
4616. Is this [showing] your pass-book at the Boddam store?-
Yes.
4617. Is it kept by the shopkeeper there?-It is kept by Isbister. I
took it back and forward every time I got goods, and had them
entered there. That book is for 1868.
4618. I see it is for Hans Leslie, and not for George Leslie. Is your
father's name Hans?-Yes.
4619. This book only comes down to February 1869. Have you
not kept a pass-book since then?-Yes; but it is not settled yet.
4620. Is that account from March 1867 to February 1869
[showing] not settled?-Yes, it is settled; but the account for 1870
is not settled yet. I have it in another pass-book, because this one
had fallen aside.
4621. And you have now another one in the hands of the
shopkeeper?-Yes.
4622. Do you know the prices which were charged against you for
goods in 1870?-No. I have seen them in the pass-book when I
had it at home; but don't remember what they were.
4623. But the settlement for 1870 is past?-Yes; it was 1871 I was
thinking of.
4624. But there is nothing in this book for 1870?-No. This
[producing another book] is the book for 1870 up till the
settlement of 1871.
4625. Have you no pass-book in your possession later than that?-
No.
4626. Show me some of the things in that book which are charged
higher to you than you could have got them elsewhere?-I say that
tea and cotton are generally charged higher. I have had very little
cotton from that shop, but I have asked the prices, and found them
much higher than at Henderson's, so that I took what cotton I
wanted from Henderson's shop, and not from the shop at Boddam.
4627. Were you quite at liberty to deal at Henderson's shop if you
liked?-Yes; we were at liberty in the way that some of the other
men have described. If we did not have the prospect of paying
what we were due, then we did not want to run into debt to a
number of men.
4628. Have you generally ready money that you can go to
Henderson's with?-No.
4629. What is the reason of that? Is it on account of the long
settlement?-That is a thing which has something to do with it,
and sometimes I have not had money to get at settlement; but
when I asked for an advance from Mr. Bruce, I always got it.
4630. I see from this book that cotton is 1s. a yard at the Boddam
shop: I suppose that was the price then?-It has sometimes been
1s., and it has sometimes been higher.
4631. I see there is tea at 10d. a quarter: is that the best tea they
sell at that store?-They seldom have any but one sort.
4632. Do you generally get all the articles you want at the Boddam
shop?-Yes.
4633. Would you like to have a greater number of things to choose
from than there are there?-No. We do not take anything there
except what we cannot do without. We wish rather to take it at
another place.
4634. Only you cannot always get credit at another place?-I
never was refused credit, only I did not like to run a heavy account
with another man who was having no profit but upon his goods.
4635. Would you have been more ready to deal with Henderson if
you had been at liberty to sell your fish to him too?-Yes.
4636. Is there a fair price charged for soap at the Boddam shop?-
There is not very much difference of price upon it. The soap
generally is pretty fair at Boddam.
4637. I see here an entry of 11/2 lines, 3s. 5d.: are these lines for
your fishings?-Yes.
4638. Is the price of lines there as moderate as at other places?-
The lines differ in quality. Sometimes we have them as good there
as in other places, and at other times not so good.
4639. But what about the price of them? Are they as cheap there
as at other places?-If the quality is as good, they are. [Produces
another pass-book.]
4640. Is this the book in which you enter the fish as they are
delivered?-Yes.
4641. Who enters them there?-Myself. It is example of how we
mark down the fish. That book contained an account which I had
running with Gavin Henderson in 1867, and I afterwards used it as
a fish book with Mr. Bruce.
4642. You enter the fish in this book, and Mr. Bruce's factor
enters them in a book of his own besides?-Yes.
4643. Do all the boats' crews keep books in which they enter their
fish in the same way?-So far as I know they do.
[Page 115]
4644. Is that the only way you have of checking the amount of fish
you get?-Yes.
4645. At the end of the year you see the quantity you have
delivered as it is entered in the landlord's book, and you see that
you get credit for it in your account with Mr. Bruce?-Yes.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, ROBERT HALCROW, examined.
4646. You are a fisherman at Lasettar, in Dunrossness, and you
hold land from Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh?-Yes.
4647. You are bound to deliver your fish to his factor, and you
settle at the end of the year in the same way as William Goudie
and the other men have described?-Yes.
4648. You have heard all their evidence?-Yes.
4649. Is there anything you wish to add to it or correct in it?-
Nothing.
4650. Do you know anything about the knitting which is done by
the women in Dunrossness?-There is a little knitting done in my
family. It might be more agreeable to some people to be paid in
cash than in goods; but others again say that if they did not get the
same price in cash for their hosiery as they get in truck, they would
not be gainers.
4651. Do they want the goods they get for the hosiery?-Yes; and
they might not get the same price for their knitting in money as
they get for it in barter.
4652. Do you know the price which they get in goods from the
merchants in Lerwick?-Yes.
4653. Would they not get the same goods at a lower price in
money, at any of the shops in your neighbourhood?-I am not
aware of that.
4654. You have never heard them say that?-No. With regard to
the evidence which has been given by the other men, I may be
allowed to say that perhaps I have had a little more experience
than some of them, but the statements which they have given have
just been what I would have made myself.
4655. How long have you been on the property?-For eleven or
twelve years.
4656. Did you receive a notice, when young Mr. Bruce became
tacksman, that you were expected to fish for him?-I did not
receive any notice; but I was missed; he passed over me.
4657. Why was that?-I was taking in uncultivated ground to build
a house upon, and I did not pay rent then.
4658. Were you aware that a notice of that kind was given to the
tenants?-Yes.
4659. Is there any one here who received that notice?-I don't
think any one received the notice individually, but there was a
public notice that they were bound to fish for Mr. Bruce, and that
they would be removed if they did not do so.
4660. How was that notice given?-By a bill placed in a public
place for the tenants at large to see.
4661. Did you see it?-No, I did not see it. With regard to the
Boddam shop, I have had dealings there, and also with Gavin
Henderson; but there are things I require which are not kept in the
Boddam shop at all.
4662. What articles do you want that you cannot get there?-I
want some kind of clothing which they do not keep, and several
other things; but the things they have, such as tea, tobacco, cotton
and canvas, I find to be somewhat dearer than at Mr. Henderson's
or in Lerwick.
4663. How much dearer is the tobacco?-It will be a penny or
twopence a quarter lb.
4664. Have you bought tobacco at both places?-Yes.
4665. What have you to say with regard to the tea?-It is from 4d.
to 8d. dearer per pound.
4666. Have you tried it at both places also?-Yes.
4667. Do you think you get the same quality at both?-It is the
same quality. I have had to pay sometimes 9d. and sometimes
10d. per quarter for tea at the Boddam shop; and when I went to
Mr. Henderson's shop, I got the same tea for 8d.
4668. So far as you could judge, was the tea at both places of the
same quality?-Yes, so far as I could judge, it was. Then for the
cotton I would pay 2d., and sometimes more than that, per yard
more in the Boddam shop than in Gavin Henderson's, or at other
places.
4669. But if the prices are so much higher at the Boddam shop
than elsewhere, why do you go there when you say you are not
obliged in any way to take goods from the Boddam shop? Why do
you not go to Gavin Henderson's for them?-I am obliged to go to
the Boddam shop and take my goods there if I have no money in
my pocket to buy them elsewhere.
4670. Does that often happen?-Perhaps not very often with me,
but it happens as a general thing among many of the men. I
believe there are as many men who have to go to Mr. Bruce's
store, and take their goods there, in consequence of the want of
money to pay for them at other places, as there are who can go and
open accounts with other merchants and pay them yearly.
4671. Is there anything else you can say about that?-There is
nothing more concerning that; but I have one thing more to say
concerning our bondage, or our liberty, in fishing to Mr. Bruce. I
have never had any help in paying rent or purchasing meal for my
living, or such things as I required for clothing, except from what I
could earn myself. I have sometimes had little clear money to get,
and sometimes I have been from £2 to £6 behind in my accounts
with Mr. Bruce, but he never charged me anything for that. I was
fishing to him, and obedient to him, and he never interfered with
me until my earnings paid up my debt account; but he would give
me supplies although was in his debt, and if I got money from him,
even when I was in his debt, I was at perfect liberty to go where I
liked for the goods I wanted. If I ran up an account at any other
shop, he gave me money and I settled it; and then at settlement
time, if I had any money remaining to come to me, I got it in cash
after he had deducted the value of any goods I might have got from
his store.
4672. But when you were in his debt at the end of the year, in the
way you have stated, were you obliged to go to his store for your
provisions, and your supplies of cotton and clothing?-I would be
obliged to do so, unless I could work at any other trade, or do any
other thing during the winter by which I could earn money to
purchase things at other stores. I may work outside, or do a little
mason work, in order to get some money; and he will not bind me
so much as if he were to see me earning nothing, but he would
allow me to keep that money, and go to other stores with it, and
purchase what I required. If I have a cow or a horse to sell, I can
sell it, and he will never inquire or push me for the balance. I can
get my money for it, and go to other stores for my meal and several
things.
4673. If you sell a beast off your farm, while you are in debt to
him, he does not object to you applying the price as you like?-He
has made no objection; but when a man is in debt to him, he
expects to get the first offer of it.
4674. He expects that a man who is in his debt will offer his cow
or his pony to him first?-Yes, he looks for that; he has always
expected it.
4675. When that is done, who fixes the price?-He will state his
price; and if the owner is dissatisfied with it, he will give him a
chance of offering it at public sale.
4676. And when it is offered at public sale, what is done then?-
The sale is generally in Mr. Bruce's own hand, and the purchaser
gives him the money; and then the owner who disposes of the
animal will go to him if he is in want of supplies, and he will
probably get them.
4677. Are there sales in your district at certain times?-Yes.
[Page 116]
4678. Where do these take place?-At Dunrossness, near the
church; twice a year, in the spring, and in the fall.
4679. Is it at these sales that you have a chance of selling your
beasts, if you do not agree with Mr. Bruce about the price?-Yes.
4680. And at these sales is there perfect liberty to any person to
bid?-Yes.
4681. You can sell them to any person who bids a higher price
than the laird offers?-Yes; but the conditions of sale are that the
purchaser has to pay the money to Mr. Bruce.
4682. Is that one of the conditions and articles of roup which are
read over at the commencement of the sale?-Yes.
4683. Does that condition apply to every lot that is sold, or only to
lots that belong to men that are in Mr. Bruce's debt?-It applies to
every lot that is sold. On all the properties there, on Simbister, and
Mr. Grierson's estate and Sumburgh estate the cattle are called in;
people who have cattle to sell are asked to bring them in to the
sale.
4684. But nobody is obliged to expose their cattle at these sales
unless they please?-There have been cases where we were
obliged to dispose of them: for instance, if a man was very deeply
in debt, he would be so far forced to bring his cattle and sell them;
and the money went into Mr. Bruce's hands, and was put to the
man's credit.
4685. You mean that it was credited to the man's account that was
settled at the end of the year?-Yes. When young Mr. Bruce first
began to take charge of the Sumburgh estate he wished to have all
the tenants clear; and for that purpose he published a sale, and
forced one of the tenants to bring his effects there, in order that his
debts might be paid off. At the sale, Mr. Bruce himself appeared
and gave a far higher price than the current price for the material
which was being sold, in order to bring the man out of debt.
4686. Who was that man?-Malcolm Irvine, Lasettar. That is the
only case of that kind I am acquainted with; but I believe there are
more cases of the same kind throughout the parish, where Mr.
Bruce paid a higher price for the articles than the market value of
them, in order to bring the men out of debt. Of course, that was a
favour to the men.
4687. Then, these sales are always fair transactions?-I think they
are fair, so far as we can discern, because they do not differ in any
way from other sales throughout the island. The terms and
conditions of roup are the same at them all.
4688. Is there anything else you wish to say?-There is only forty
days' warning given before Martinmas. No doubt that may be well
enough for tenants in a town like Lerwick, who hold nothing
except a room to live in, but it is very disagreeable for a tenant
holding a small piece of land as we do. As soon as our crop is
taken in, we must start work immediately, and prepare the land for
next season. We have to make provision for manure, and collect
our peats, and prepare stuff for thatching our houses, and perhaps
by Martinmas we have expended from £6 to £10 worth of labour
and expense on our little farms. In that case, it is a very hard thing
for us to be turned out of our holdings after receiving only forty
days' notice, and perhaps only getting £1, or £2, for all that labour.
Now, what I would suggest that instead of that short notice we
should be entitled to receive a longer notice, perhaps six or nine
months before the term, that we are to be turned out.
4689. Do you think you would be more at liberty to dispose of
your fish, and to deal at any shop you pleased, if you were entitled
to that longer warning?-I don't think the warning would alter
anything with regard to that; but if I knew that I was to be turned
out at Martinmas, I would probably start fishing earlier, and I
might have a larger price to get for them instead of working upon
my land.
4690. But you can be punished more easily by your landlord for
selling your fish to another man, when he can turn you out on forty
days' warning, than if he could only do it on six or eight months'
warning?-I think it would be much the same with regard to that.
4691. You don't think that would make any difference as to the
fishing?-It might make a little difference, because if I received
my warning in March, and knew that I was to leave at Martinmas,
if I saw that I was to have a better price for my fish from another, I
would not fish to my landlord at all; but I would go to any man I
would get the best price from.
4692. Do you think you would be better off if you had your fish
paid for as they are delivered?-I don't think that would serve
me any better. It would serve young men who are not landholders
better; but I don't think it would serve landholders better than to
allow the price to lie, and to settle once in a season, because
sometimes our crops are so scanty that we have only perhaps
two parts or three-fourths of a regular supply of meal for our
living; and if I got the price of my fish paid to me every time when
I came ashore, or on the Saturday night, we might perhaps live
comfortably for awhile, but then at Martinmas, when our rents
were due, and our fishing earnings were spent, we would be in a
hard case, because where would our rents come from?
4693. Do you think you would be likely to spend your earnings as
you got them?-In some cases that would be so, because
occasionally we have to live on a very small allowance of
provisions, perhaps one-half or three-fourths, and we suffer from
that. I think it is better if the money for our fishing is preserved
for a time in our landlord's hands; because, in the first place, we
like to have our rents paid.
4694. Would it be any advantage to you to have the price of your
fish fixed at the beginning of the season?-It might and it might
not, because here in Shetland we are paid for our fish according to
a currency. The principal curers in the country arrange what the
price is to be, and, so far as I know, they have it in their own
power to make the currency whatever they think fit.
4695. Do you think the current price is fairly fixed?-I cannot
judge of that, nor can any one outside, because I don't know what
has been realized for the fish in the south. It is a matter which
rests upon their own conscience, whether the merchants fix a fair
current price or not.
4696. But you think they have the fixing of it?-Yes, they do fix it.
4697. Do you think it right that they should have the fixing of it,
and that you should have nothing to say to it, when it is according
to that price that you are paid?-We have no experience in the
matter, or else we should have a voice in it.
4698. If you were at liberty to cure and sell your own fish, would
you not have something to say in fixing the market price at which
the fish were to be paid?-I think we would.
4699. Supposing the price of your fish were settled at the
beginning of the season, and that you knew then what it was to be,
do you think you would manage your purchases during the season
better than you do now, according as you took a large or a small
quantity of fish?-I don't think so.
4700. If you were only taking a small take of fish, you would see,
as the season went on, that you could not have a large balance at
the end of the year?-I don't think that would matter much for me.
It might do for a family in which there were two or three men but
for a man who held a certain tack of land, and had to support a
family, I don't think it would be any advantage. In my case, there
is only myself earning anything, and it takes the greater part of my
fishing, year by year, to pay for my meal and land rent.
4701. I suppose what you mean is, that you are obliged to live at a
certain rate of expenditure, and that you cannot reduce that rate
any lower, however poor your fishing may be?-No, I cannot.
4702. So that you must take the bad years and the good years, and
make up in a good year for what you have gone behind in a bad
one?-Yes, that is what I mean.
[Page 117]
4703. Therefore the present system suits you as well as any
other?-It does.
4704. You could not economize more, although you knew what
you were to receive at the end of the year?-I don't see that I
could.
4705. And you could not manage your money any better, although
you had it in your hands, and could spend it in Lerwick, or in any
other store, except that at Boddam?-I don't see that I could. I
have not taken any meal from Mr. Bruce now for three years, but I
have taken a good deal of things out of his stores.
4706. Have you got your meal from your own ground?-No.
During the past season I had to buy very little; but since I came to
the place I am now in, I have sometimes had to buy seven, and
eight, and nine months' provisions, besides what my own labour
upon my farm could yield.
4707. Where did you buy your meal then?-At that time I had
some from Mr. Bruce, and some from other places.
4708. But I am talking of the last three years, when you did not
buy any of it from Mr. Bruce?-I have had it from Lerwick, and
also from a store at Sand Lodge. Lebidden is the name of the
place where the store is.
4709. Whose store is that?-Thomas Tullochs's.
4710. Why did you buy it from these stores rather than from the
store at Boddam?-Because I could get it cheaper; I would pay
some money for it at these other stores.
4711. What did you get it for there?-I don't recollect the price.
4712. I suppose the price varied?-Yes.
4713. And you got it at that price by paying it at the time you got
it?-Yes; I got it at as low a price as it could be got anywhere.
Besides, I took weaker qualities of grain as being cheaper than
what Mr. Bruce had, such as second flour or third flour, and so on,
when Mr. Bruce, would have had nothing but barleymeal and
oatmeal.
4714. Does he only keep one quality of meal at Boddam store?-
He keeps more than one quality, because he has had grain from his
own farm to supply his fishermen and tenants with; and he has also
had Orkney meal there, which was cheaper than Scotch meal.
4715. But you say that you could get weaker qualities than what
Mr. Bruce kept. Do you mean that the qualities were inferior?-
Yes.
4716. Were they inferior to any that Mr. Bruce had?-Not to what
grew on his own farm, but to any that he had at that time, or what
he generally kept.
4717. But I am talking of the last three years during which you
have had none from Mr. Bruce. Were the qualities at the other
stores inferior to what Mr. Bruce kept?-When I was having none
from Mr. Bruce I did not know exactly what qualities he had.
4718. But you knew that what you were getting was cheaper than
what you could get at his store?-Yes, I knew that.
4719. Is there anything more you wish to say?-No; I think that is
all.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, LAURENCE SMITH, recalled.
4720. I believe you saw the bill, which was put up when Mr. Bruce
came, to which the witness Halcrow referred?-Yes, I saw it.
There was a man sent round among the tenants with a letter, and
he read it to them.
4721. Who was the man?-He is dead: it was John Harper, Virkie.
4722. To whom was the letter addressed?-To the tenants
generally. Sometimes when he came to a town, he called the
tenants together and read it to them; and when he met one of the
tenants by himself, he just read it over to him.
4723. Were the tenants called together at Trosswick, where you
live?-Yes.
4724. Was the letter read over to the whole of them at once?-
Yes.
4725. Did you hear it?-Yes.
4726. Do you remember its terms?-I do not; but the letter was
from old Mr. Bruce, and the substance of it was, that he had given
us over into the hands of his son.
4727. As tacksman?-He did not say whether it was as tacksman
or not, but he said that the penalty of our not fishing to him would
be that we should get our warning.
4728. Was it stated in the letter that young Mr. Bruce was setting
up as a fish-curer?-I could not exactly say, but it was known to
the tenants that he was going to do so.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, HENRY GILBERTSON, recalled.
4729. I believe you were at Fair Isle three weeks ago?-Yes; three
or four weeks ago, with a smack belonging to Mr. Bruce.
4730. Was that for the purpose of delivering supplies of provisions
to the people on the island?-It was for the purpose of landing two
men on the island, one of whom was to be a farmer, and the other
was a mason to build dykes.
4731. Had you been there before?-Never.
4732. Did you meet with any of the people while you were there,
and talk with them about the way in which their shop was
supplied?-Yes, I met almost all of them, and I got some
information about how they deal at the shop, because they inquired
at me at what prices the articles were sold in Shetland.
4733. Are the people there supplied with provisions and goods
from the shop at Dunrossness?-No; there is a shop on the island
which is supplied from the shop at Dunrossness.
4734. Do you know anything: about the prices of goods at the shop
on Fair Isle?-There was a man belonging to the island-I don't
know his name-who told me that he had paid 1s. 4d. per quarter
for tobacco. There was a general complaint that the prices were
above the currency charged in Shetland.
4735. Did the people seem to think that there was a better way in
which they could be supplied?-Yes; they seemed to think that if
they had their liberty to sell their fish, to the best advantage, they
could supply themselves from Orkney or Shetland with goods at a
cheaper rate than they could get them for in Mr. Bruce's store in
Fair Isle.
4736. Do you think anybody would be willing to go to Fair Isle to
buy fish and sell goods?-There were plenty would do so if they
had the chance. Mr. James Smith, of Hill Cottage, Sandwick
parish, used to go there, but he was stopped from doing so by Mr.
Bruce when he bought the island.
4737. Did the people on the island speak as if they were worse
used than they had been formerly?-They spoke as if they got their
articles cheaper from Mr. Smith than they could get them now.
4738. How long were you on the island?-I was there for eight
days, and I was in almost every house.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, HANS SMITH, examined.
4739. You are the master of a smack which sometimes visits Fair
Isle for Mr. Bruce?-Yes.
4740. Do you take a quantity of goods to the shop there from the
shop at Dunrossness?-Yes, sometimes from the shop at
Dunrossness, and sometimes the [Page 118] goods are ordered
from the south; and we get them from the steamer at Lerwick, and
take them direct to the island.
4741. Do you know anything about the prices at which these goods
are charged at the shop on the island?-No; I could not speak
positively about that.
4742. Do you know whether the people on the island are satisfied
with the supplies which you take to them?-They are satisfied
with them so far; but they object to the price realized for their fish
as being lower than what is paid in Shetland. I think that is about
the only thing they object to. Of course they also think that the
prices for the goods are dear; but still they are not so much
dissatisfied with that.
4743. I suppose it involves a little expense to get the goods carried
from the mainland to Fair Isle?-Of course it does.
4744. There is a risk from the weather in taking them there?-Yes;
there is a risk of damage, and there is not a safe harbour there.
4745. Does any one trade to Fair Isle except your smack?-No, not
regularly. There are some people who go in occasionally, but
there are no others who go very often from Shetland. There is one
boat belonging to James Rendall, of Westray, in Orkney, that goes
occasionally.
4746. Is it within your knowledge that other traders are not
allowed to go to Fair Isle to sell their goods there?-Yes; I believe
the people are not allowed to buy from them. They do not exactly
stop them; but I think they tried to do it.
4747. Have you known that being done at any time when you were
at the island?-I think I have been there twice when James
Rendall was there; and he chiefly sold in the night time when I
was asleep, and I did not know what was going on.
4748. Why was that?-I don't know. I never asked him why he
did it. The people are scarcely allowed either to sell to him or buy
from him.
4749. Was it not because the factor forbade him to sell to the
people at all that he dealt with them during the night?-Of course
the factor forbade him from dealing with them, and he would have
noticed if Rendall had dealt with them in the day time. I don't
think the people were so much stopped from buying from him as
they were stopped from selling to him. They were not allowed to
sell any cattle or horse, or anything they had, to him.
4750. How do you know that?-Because I saw it myself. I have
heard the factor and the people talking about it, and I know they
were not allowed to sell.
4751. Have you heard the factor forbidding them to sell their cattle
to Rendall?-Yes; they have told me themselves that it was £2 of a
fine if they sold anything to him.
4752. Whom have you heard the factor forbidding to sell to
Rendall?-I have heard the factor talking to lots of them about it.
There was one, Thomas Wilson for instance; he was forbidden.
4753. Do you know that he wished to sell cattle to Rendall?-Yes;
I know that he had a cow last year for which Rendall offered him
£5, 10s. on the island, and he was afraid to sell her to him. The
factor told him he had better not sell her.
4754. Was it in your presence that he told him so?-Yes; and
Wilson came over to Shetland with us; I don't remember what he
got for the cow here, but I think it was £4, 1s.
4755. You brought the cow over to Shetland yourself?-Yes.
4756. Who was the factor?-Jerome Wilson.
4757. Did he tell Thomas Wilson that he must not sell his cow
because he was in arrear of rent, or in debt?-No; he was not in
debt; he had some cash to get at the time of settlement.
4758. How do you know that?-Because he told me himself. I
went home with him to his house, when he settled last summer,-I
think in June or July.
4759. Do you know of your own knowledge that the cow
afterwards sold for £4, 1s. in Shetland?-I think that was what it
sold for.
4760. Did you see it sold?-No; but Thomas Wilson told me about
it. I was at the sale that day. I was not present when the cow was
sold, but Wilson told me about it at night.
4761. Do you buy hosiery from the Fair Isle people?-The factor,
Mr. Wilson, buys it for Mr. Bruce.
4762. Do you sometimes bring it over here?-Yes.
4763. You don't know anything about the way in which the people
are paid for it?-I don't know.
4764. Is Jerome Wilson likely to be in Shetland soon?-I don't
know whether he is or not, but I don't think it. He just buys up the
hosiery, and then sends it over to Mr. Bruce. I think the people get
goods chiefly for it; but I am not sure. I have seen it sold, and seen
them getting goods for it.
4765. Have you seen anybody else buying it on the island? Have
you ever bought any of it?-No; not much.
4766. But you have bought a little?-I have bought a pair of
stockings; that was all.
4767. Did you pay cash for them?-Yes.
4768. What do the people do with their money in Fair Isle?-I am
sure I don't know; they have not much to do with it there.
4769. They cannot purchase goods with it?-They can purchase
goods; because when we are going in with the smack, they are
always going out and in, and they are glad to get as much money
as possible. There are none of the people out of the island just
now that I know of.
4770. When will you be going back to it?-Not until the month of
April, or the 1st of May.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, ROBERT MALCOLMSON, examined.
4771. You are a fisherman and tenant on Mr. Bruce's lands at
Northtown of Exnaboe?-I am.
4772. You have heard the evidence of William Goudie and
Laurence Smith?-Yes.
4773. Does it give a fair account of the way in which you deal in
fish and purchase goods with Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh?-Yes, it
gives an accurate account of it, so far as my experience goes.
4774. Were you a beach boy when you were young?-Not to Mr.
Bruce. At that time the men had their liberty and cured their fish
for themselves.
4775. Do you know anything about the way in which beach boys
are dealt with now?-No.
4776. None of your family or friends are beach boys?-None.
4777. Have you known of any case in which a man was turned out,
or threatened to be turned out of his ground for selling his fish to
another than the proprietor?-Yes; I know one case. That was the
case of Thomas Harper, James Harper's son, who was referred to
before.
4778. That was a good many years ago?-Yes.
4779. Is there anything you wish to add to what has been said by
the other men?-Nothing, so far as I remember.
4780. Do you think you would make any more of your fish if you
were allowed to cure them for yourself?-We generally think so.
4781. Have you ever made any calculation about that?-According
to hearsay from other quarters, and contrasting our case with
theirs, we have a rough idea that we would make more on the
whole.
4782. Do you think there is any disadvantage to the men in having
such long settlements as you have at Dunrossness?-In some cases
there is.
4783. Do you think it would be better for you to be paid for your
fish as they are delivered?-In some cases that would do very
well, but in other cases it would not. Some men and some families
would, so to speak, go beyond their income; and at the end of the
season, when their rent was due, they would have nothing to
[Page 119] give to their landlord. They would not have saved any
money for the rent.
4784. But is it not the case that fishermen nowadays save a good
deal of money?-Some do, and some do not.
4785. Have not a good many of your friends large deposits in the
bank?-No; that is not the case with many.
4786. Are you sure of that?-I would not be positive; but so far as
I know, it is not the case.
4787. I suppose a man does not speak very much about his bank
account down about Dunrossness, when he has one?-No; but I
don't think it is very common for them there to have one.
4788. Do you know anything about the price of meal at the shop
where you deal?-I have an idea of it, but only at settling time.
4789. At which shop do you deal?-At Grutness store.
4790. Do you run up a large account in the course of the year?-
Generally I do.
4791. Does your account take off most of the price of your fish?-
Yes, the most of it.
4792. You only get a small balance at the end of the year?-Yes, if
I have it to get; but if not, Mr. Bruce is kind enough to make me a
small advance as I need it.
4793. Of course that is on the footing that you are to fish to him
next year?-We understand so.
4794. Do you think you would get your meal cheaper at another
store than at Grutness, if you had liberty to deal at another store?-
I think so, according to what other people say.
4795. Have you inquired the price of meal at Messrs. Hay's shop
there?-I have not inquired about it myself.
4796. What do you pay for your meal at Grutness store?-It varies
according to the quality and the current price of meal.
4797. Do you pay the same price for it all the year round?-Yes.
4798. Is that generally the price which prevails at the end of the
year at settling time, or is it an average of the prices that have
prevailed during the whole year?-When it all comes to be
summed up, it is generally a little in advance, on the whole, of
what we could buy meal for at another shop,-for instance, at Hay
and Co.'s.
4799. Is the quality of it as good as you could get at Hay &
Co.'s?-The quality is good.
4800. Is there anything else you want to add to the statements of
the other witnesses?-No.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, THOMAS AITKEN, examined.
4801. You are a fisherman at Eastshore, in Dunrossness?-Yes.
4802. Are you a tenant of land under Mr. Bruce?-I am only
tenant of a room, not of any land. I hold a house there.
4803. Are you bound in any way to fish for Mr. Bruce?-Yes; I
signed an agreement to fish for him when he took the fishing in his
own hand at Grutness, eleven or twelve years ago.
4804. Were you a landholder at that time?-No; but I was living in
my father's house, and I was bound to fish for Mr. Bruce like the
rest.
4805. What was the document you were asked to sign?-The
general tenor of his statement was, that he was to give the current
price, and I was bound to fish for him while I was living on his
estate.
4806. Have you any objection to adhere to that bargain?-I am of
the opinion that, if I had had my freedom, I might have made a
little more from my fish than I have done.
4807. But would you not have your freedom simply by removing
to another place?-Not in Dunrossness.
4808. You mean not on his land?-No, nor on Mr. Grierson's
land. I would be bound to fish for Grierson under the same rules if
I were to remove to his property.
4809. Do you live with your father still?-No; my father is an old
man, and he has ceased to hold land.
4810. Do you consider yourself still bound to fish for Mr. Bruce,
even although your father does not hold any land from him?-Yes;
I consider I am bound while I am living on his estate.
4811. Have you any copy of the agreement which you signed?-
No.
4812. Where did you sign it?-In the shop at Grutness.
4813. Who asked you to sign it?-Mr. Bruce's factor, or his
farmer who was in Sumburgh at that time who was sent round
among the tenants with a letter from old Mr. Bruce, intimating to
them that his son was to take the district into his own hands, that
they were to fish for him, and that any one refusing to fish was to
leave.
4814. That is the letter which Laurence Smith has spoken of?-
Yes.
4815. But did you sign anything?-Yes, I signed a paper, stating
that I would rather stay and fish for him than that I would flit.
4816. Was that after the letter had been sent round among the
tenants?-Yes.
4817. How long after?-A few days perhaps,-not more.
4818. Were you asked to go to the shop and sign it?-Yes.
4819. Were any others asked to sign it?-I believe there were.
4820. Was it the factor who asked you to sign it?-Yes. Gilbert
Irvine was the factor; he asked me to sign it, and I signed to him.
The paper was there, ready for us to sign.
4821. Was it read over to you?-Yes.
4822. What was the substance of it?-The substance of it was just
what I have stated-that if we would fish to Mr. Bruce on these
terms, we could stay on the land; and if not, then we would have to
go.
4823. Were there many people who signed it at the same time with
you?-No.
4824. Was there anybody else who signed it at the same time?-I
could not exactly say. I don't think there was anybody in the
house when I signed it, but there were a great many names to it
before I went in.
4825. Was it signed by landholders only, or by those who had
merely a room?-There were very few at that time who merely
held a room. There are not many yet who do so; but the document
was signed generally by the fishermen who fished there.
4826. Was the thing you signed an obligation to fish for Mr. Bruce
so long as you occupied a room or a house on his ground?-Yes; I
so understood it.
4827. But if you ceased to occupy that house or room you would
be free?-Yes; and we could go to another place.
4828. You settle every year in the spring?-Yes.
4829. Do you generally have a balance in your favour?-Not very
often. I have no land, and therefore I have to rely upon my own
fishing, or what work I can do for him when I am called upon to
work.
4830. Are you bound to work for Mr. Bruce as well as to fish for
him?-I am not bound to work for him; but if I am in debt to him,
of course he will call me out to work.
4831. But he will pay you for it?-Yes; but I am not quite satisfied
with that pay. It is only a penny for one hour's work.
4832. Does that go into your account?-Yes.
4833. Have you got any pass-book at the shop?-No; I have no
pass-book there. I see the articles which I receive from him
entered into his book, and I told the price of most of the things
when they supplied to me; but the principal thing which I get from
the store is meal, and I never know the price of it until the day
when I come to settle, or until I hear it from any person who has
settled before me for the same year.
[Page 120]
4834. Do you know what price you paid for it at last settlement?-
I paid the same price for it as the other witnesses you have
examined-22s. for Scotch oatmeal, and 20s. for barley-meal.
4835. Do you think you could have got your meal cheaper than
that elsewhere?-Yes, I am under that impression.
4836. Have you asked the price of it elsewhere?-Yes; Mr. Hay's
factor at Dunrossness had meal which was cheaper at that time.,
4837. That was in the spring of last year?-Yes.
4838. How much cheaper was it?-I cannot remember exactly; but
if I had had money, I could have purchased it cheaper at many
places besides that.
4839. Did you not get advances of money in the course of the year
from Mr. Bruce?-Yes.
4840. Could you not have got as much as you asked?-I did not
want to ask more than I thought I could stand to. I did not want to
get far in debt to him.
4841. Did you get a balance at last settlement paid to you in
money?-Yes; if I had a balance at the end of the year, it was paid
to me in money.
4842. But did you get a balance last year?-I was about clear then.
4843. You were not much more than clear?-No.
4844. Do you remember how much you got at that time?-I asked
for £1 of advance from him at the settlement, and he gave it to me.
4845. Do you mean £1 more than the balance due to you?-Yes.
4846. Were you in debt at the previous settlement in 1870?-Yes.
4847. Were you also in debt in 1869?-Yes.
4848. Was the balance also on the wrong side for you in 1868?-I
don't think it.
4849. Do you think you had something to get in 1868?-If I
remember right I had.
4850. Do you remember how you stood in 1867?-I think that I
was clear.
4851. But you had not much to get?-No.
4852. You are a married man and have a family?-Yes.
4853. Is there anything you wish to add to what you have heard the
previous witnesses say?-Nothing further than just that I am not
satisfied with my wages.
4854. Have you not something to say yourself in fixing your
charges?-No.
4855. How is that? You need not work unless you know what
wages you are to get beforehand?-No; but there is no general
work there to work at. Mr. Bruce is the only man who has work to
do and when a man is in necessity he must work.
4856. Can you not get land of your own?-No; I am not able to
hold any land, because my family are sickly, and are not able to
work upon it.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, HANS MAINLAND, examined.
4857. You are a fisherman at Northtown of Exnaboe, on the land
of Mr Bruce of Sumburgh?-I am.
4858. Have you heard the evidence of the previous witnesses?-
Yes.
4859. Has it generally been a correct description of your way of
dealing with the shop at Sumburgh, and with Mr. Bruce for your
fish?-So far as regards the store, I have never been obliged to
take anything from it. I always went and bought my goods for
ready money from any place where I could get them cheapest.
4860. Why was that?-Because as a general rule, I heard the
people complaining that they were obliged to take their goods
from the store, and that they were dearer there than they could be
got elsewhere.
4861. Had you any difficulty in getting the balance due to you at
the settlement at the end of the year in cash?-No.
4862. You always got money?-Yes.
4863. Was money also advanced to you in the course of the year
before settlement, if you wanted it?-Yes, if I asked for it.
4864. What amount might you get advanced before settlement?-
If I had asked it, I would have got perhaps £10 or £20. Of course I
had a little money in Mr. Bruce's hands, so that I was not requiring
to draw any money from him that was not due to me.
4865. Is there anything you wish to add to the evidence which has
been given already?-There is one thing I should like to say with
regard to the present law on the subject of leases. Mr. Bruce has
the power of turning out men who have made a great many
improvements on his estate, and perhaps, they may be turned out
without receiving any compensation whatever. I am one of those
who have done it great deal for it. I have expended upwards of
£100 worth of labour and material on his ground.
4866. Before laying out that expense could you not have made an
arrangement with the landlord that he should repay you for it if
you were turned off?-So far as I am aware, he has never been
prepared to give any rules or regulations to that effect.
4867. Has he not offered you a lease?-He has offered us a lease;
but I don't think there is any party in Shetland who would accept
of it.
4868. Have you ever applied for a different lease?-I have never
applied for a lease at all. There was no use doing so, so far as
I knew. But I think that when a party lays out money in
improvements on master's estate he ought to be paid for it.
4869. But a man who lays out money upon another man's, land
knows quite well before he begins that he will not be paid for it,
and he takes the risk of the landlord being kind enough and able to
repay him part of these expenses. It may very well be that the
landlord is a poor enough man as well as the tenant, and that he
cannot afford to put improvements upon his land; and yet the
tenant goes and spends a lot of money on it, expecting the landlord
to repay him for improvements which the landlord himself would
not have made, if he had had the land in his own hands?-That
may be quite true; but so far as I have understood, Mr. Bruce has
always taken a great interest in having improvements made upon
his land.
4870. That, however, is hardly a question into which I can enter
here unless you think it has some bearing upon the system of
payments at the shop, or the system of payments for the fish?-It
has no bearing upon these questions at all, so far as I am aware,
except perhaps in this way, that for four months in the winter
season the fishermen are lying at home to a great extent, idle. The
fishing commences about 1st May, and it finishes in the end of
August. Then they have to gather in their summer crops; and
during the winter season, and the early part of the spring, they have
very little to do; while a person of an active turn of mind does not
like to remain idle for such a length of time. They want to be
doing something, and they will engage to any one who has work to
give them.
4871. Have you anything more to say about that?-I have nothing
more to say except this, that when person is a tenant at will, and
liable to be removed after having made improvements on the
estate of any proprietor, he ought to receive compensation for
these improvements.
4872. Would it be possible for fishermen in Shetland to carry on
the business of fishermen alone without being tenants?-Not so
far as my judgment goes.
4873. Why?-Because the small earnings from the fishing could
not support him, neither could the land itself support him in the
way it is laid down present.
4874. And I suppose, if the holdings of land were larger, a man
would have no time to attend to the fishing?-No, he would not.
If the holdings were larger, of course the men would have to
occupy the whole of their time with the ground.
4875. Don't you think that, with an improved system of
agriculture, you would find enough occupation on [Page 121]
holdings of the present size for the whole year?-Not in my
opinion; they are too small for that.
4876. Not even by following out the rules and regulations which
Mr. Bruce has offered you?-No.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, ADAM LESLIE, jun., examined.
4877. You are a fisherman at Toab, in Dunrossness?-I am.
4878. Have you heard the evidence of the previous witnesses?-
Yes.
4879. Does it fairly describe the system under which you hold your
land and fish for Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh, and the way in which
you deal at his shop?-Yes, I think it does.
4880. Is there any addition you wish to make to the evidence
which has been given, or any correction upon it?-No.
4881. Have you a pass-book at the shop?-No.
4882. Do you deal at the shop at Grutness for the goods you want
for your family?-In part I do.
4883. Do you find that, at the end of the year, you have generally a
balance in your favour, or is it against you?-I cannot say that it is
much against me.
4884. Do you get payment of that balance in money?-Yes.
4885. Do you also get advances in money, in the course of the year
before settlement, if you want them?-Yes; whenever I ask for
them. Our place is far away from the bank, and sometimes Mr.
Bruce may have run out of money by so many people having gone
and asked it from him; but if I go to him and ask him for money,
and he does not have it, he tells me when to come back and get it.
4886. In that case, when you get the money, do you spend it
generally at Mr. Bruce's shop, or do you go and deal at some other
store with it?-I generally go to some other store.
4887. Do you find that you get your goods cheaper at another store
than at his?-I am under that impression, but I never compared his
goods with those of other merchants.