4888. You are a fisherman at Eastshore, Dunrossness, and a tenant
on Mr Bruce's land?-I am.
4889. You have been there for thirteen years?-Yes.
4890. Do you remember a time when the fishermen got their
freedom there?-That was before I came to the place.
4891. Were they understood formerly to be bound?-Yes, in old
times they were bound; but, just about time when I came there, old
Mr. Bruce gave them their liberty, and they were all free.
4892. Was there an understanding previously, that they were
bound to fish only to him, or to his tacksmen?-Yes: but, two or
three years before I came they got their liberty.
4893. Was there any payment made for that?-Each landholder
had to pay 15s. a year for his freedom.
4894. Was that just an addition to their rent?-Yes.
4895. The rents were raised, and the fishermen had liberty to do as
they liked about their fish?-Yes.
4896. From whom did you learn that?-It was given out by Mr.
Bruce, and by all the tenants.
4897. But you said you were not there at the time?-I was not.
4898. Then you learned that when you came from common
report?-Yes, just from common report.
4899. Was your father a landholder there?-No. I removed from
Mr. Bruce of Simbister's ground to that place.
4900. Have you held your ground at the same rent for the thirteen
years you have been there?-No. The rent has been raised a good
deal since I came, in addition to the 15s.
4901. During all your time have you been free to deliver your fish
to any person you chose?-I was free to do so until twelve years
back, when I became bound to deliver my fish to Mr. John Bruce.
4902. That was by the letter which has been spoken of already?-
Yes.
4903. You have heard the evidence of William Goudie, and the
other men who have been examined?-Yes.
4904. Was it generally correct as to the way in which you deal
about your fish?-So far as I could judge, I have not heard a wrong
statement made to-day; and there has been nothing left for me to
add to it.
4905. You agree with them that you can get money when you ask
for it?-Yes.
4906. Is the bulk of the price of your fish paid to you in money or
in goods?-I take goods according as I require them. I have meal
and other things; and whatever is over, after paying my account at
the shop and my rent, is cheerfully paid to me, the same as I would
pay it to my son. There is not a freer man at paying money to his
tenants than Mr. Bruce is. I have been £6 in debt, and asked him
for advances, and he has given them to me.
4907. Was that after settlement?-Yes.
4908. And, of course, that was given to you on the understanding
that you were to be fishing for him next year?-Yes; I was fishing
for him by sea, and working for him by land.
4909. If you had not been fishing for him, would you have got an
advance of that sort?-But I was fishing for him, so that I cannot
tell that.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, JAMES FLAWES, examined.
4910. You are a fisherman, and tenant under Mr. Grierson at
Rennesta, near Quendale?-I am.
4911. Are you under any obligation to deliver your fish to Mr
Grierson?-Yes.
4912. Is he a fish-merchant and fish-curer?-He is a
fish-merchant, and he has men under him for curing his fish.
4913. Is your obligation a written one, or is it part of a verbal lease
of your land?-When young Mr. Grierson got the fishing, he read
out a statement to his tenantry at large, in the schoolroom at
Quendale.
4914. How long ago was that?-Twelve years ago. That statement
which he read gave the tenantry to understand that he was to
become their fish-merchant, or the man they were to deliver their
fish to; and that they were all bound to give him every tail of their
fish from end to end of the season, as long as they held their land
under him. If they did not do that, they knew the consequences:
they would be turned out.
4915. Was that all stated to you in the schoolroom on that
occasion?-Yes; it was all read off by Mr. Grierson himself.
4916. Were you present?-Yes.
4917. Did he state that you would be paid for your fish according
to the current price at the time of settlement?-Yes; that was
stated also at that time.
4918. Was it stated how that current price was to be
ascertained?-It was to be the currency of the country, particularly
the prices paid by three or four merchants who dealt in the same
kind of fish that he received from his tenants.
4919. Did Mr. Grierson name the four merchants whose prices
were to rule?-The four merchants who generally agree together
are Mr. John Robertson, [Page 122] Messrs. Hay, Mr. Bruce of
Sumburgh, and Mr. Grierson.
4920. How do you know that these merchants agree together as to
the prices?-Because the tenants of the whole of them generally
get the same price for their fish.
4921. Do not all the tenants in Shetland generally get the same
price for their fish each season?-No; there is a difference.
4922. Do you know that the tenants of these four parties always
get one price?-Yes; generally it is the same price that is given to
them all.
4923. Do you know that the tenants on other estates get a different
price?-Yes, I know that.
4924. Can you mention any case in which that has happened?-
Yes. There are a few merchants in Sandwick parish who get fish
from a few boats there-James Smith, James Mouat, and Thomas
Tulloch-and they always give a little higher.
4925. Do these merchants keep shops as well?-Yes, they have
shops too.
4926. Do the men who fish for them deal at their shops?-I
understand they do.
4927. Can you tell me how much Tulloch and Smith have paid for
their fish?-In some years they give 6d. per cwt. more than Mr.
Grierson and the other merchants I have mentioned, and for some
kinds of fish 9d. more.
4928. What price did you receive for your fish at last
settlement?-Last year, I think, we got 7s. for ling, or 7s. 3d.,
I could not exactly say which; 5s. 6d. for cod, and 3s. 6d. for
saith.
4929. Do you know how much the fishermen got from Tulloch and
Smith?-I could not exactly say, but they got a little more.
4930. You knew that at the time?-Yes, I knew it at the time from
the fishermen who were giving their fish to them.
4931. Do you know how much more they got?-I think it was 9d.
more on some fish, and 6d. more on others. It might be a little
more; but, I think, I am safe to say that.
4932. Do you know anything about the prices of goods at the
stores of Tulloch and Smith?-No. I never bought anything from
them.
4933. Young Mr. Grierson, whom you mentioned as having taken
the fishing in 1861, is now the proprietor of the estate?-Yes.
4934. Does the obligation which was then imposed upon you
extend to the sons of his tenants, as well as to the tenants
themselves?-It extends to all.
4935. Do you know of any case in which any man upon the land
has delivered his fish to another fishcurer than Mr. Grierson, and
has been challenged or turned out for that?-I know one.
4936. Who was that?-Thomas Johnston, Garth, Quendale, son of
John Johnston. He was out of a chance of fishing for Mr. Grierson
at his station, but he got a chance to fish for Messrs. Hay, and
because he went and fished for them, he could not come back to
his father's house, but had to remain all winter and vore (<i.e.>
spring) with the man he fished for. Then he came back next spring
and fished for Mr. Grierson again.
4937. Who prevented him from coming back to his father's house,
if he had chosen to do so?-He was told by Mr. Grierson, that if he
went and fished for another person, he would have to stop away,
and that if he came back, it would be his father's warning.
4938. How long ago was that?-I don't recollect exactly; perhaps
two or three years ago.
4939. How do you know that that warning would have been given
to John Johnston?-Because it was part of the arrangement with
Mr. Grierson from the very outset.
4940. But how do you know that Thomas Johnston was told he
must leave the land and that his father would be turned out if he
came back?-Because he told me so himself, and he evidenced it
by staying away.
4941. Was it not more convenient for him to live near the station
where he was fishing for Hay & Co., than to remain in his father's
house?-He had to leave his own house and go away down to the
west voe to fish.
4942. But was it not more convenient for himself to go there?-
Yes, it was handier for him to live near the place where he was
fishing.
4943. Are you sure that was not the reason why he left his father's
house?-But the man he fished for did not live at that station: his
house was away upon the west side.
4944. Was he not upon Mr. Grierson's land?-No, not that man.
4945. Do you know the case of any other man being challenged or
threatened because he sold his fish to another fish merchant than
Mr. Grierson?-Yes, I know of another case-James Shewan on
the ground of Brough, belonging to Mr. Grierson's estate.
4946. How long is it since that case happened?-It was last year.
4947. What do you know about it?-Shewan did not have a
chance of fishing at home for Mr. Grierson, and he also took a
chance at the ness with Messrs. Hay & Co. They fished from the
west voe then.
4948. What was the consequence?-The consequence was that
Shewan had to pay £1 of liberty money.
4949. When was that?-This year.
4950. Was it before last settlement?-No; it was at this settlement.
4951. Is the settlement over at Quendale for last season?-Almost.
There were a few boats not settled with when we came up.
4952. How do you know that Shewan had to pay liberty money this
year? Did he tell you that he had had to pay it?-Yes.
4953. Did you see him pay it?-I did not.
4954. Was it added to his account when settling?-I cannot tell
you whether it was included in the settlement, or whether he had
paid it some months before.
4955. When did he tell you about it?-He told me when he had
settled.
4956. How long ago is that?-It is not very long; perhaps it week
or two since.
4957. Is James Shewan a tenant of Mr. Grierson's?-Yes.
4958. Was it not it part of his bargain, on taking his land, that he
should deliver his fish to his landlord?-Yes.
4959. And was not that £1 which he paid just a penalty for breach
of contract?-Yes; but then he did not have a chance of fishing for
Mr. Grierson. There were no men on Mr. Grierson's estate who
could fill up a boat with him, the men that he had previously been
going with having joined another crew; and therefore he had to go
to some other place where he could earn something.
4960. Were Mr. Grierson's crews all filled up at that time?-Yes.
4961. Could Shewan not have brought his share of his boat's fish
to Mr. Grierson and delivered them to him, although the rest of the
men were fishing for Hay and Co.?-He might have done that; but
I don't know very well about it.
4962. That would have been very inconvenient I suppose?-Yes,
very.
4963. Do you know of any other case of the same kind?- No.
4964. Or of any case of a person being told that he must fish
entirely to Mr. Grierson without being threatened?-We knew
quite well from the statement which was made to us before, that if
any one transgressed the rule, the penalty would just be our forty
days warning.
4965. Do you deal at the Quendale store?-Yes.
4966. Who is the storekeeper there?-Ogilvy Jamieson.
4967. Is the shop at a convenient place for your people and for
most of the fishermen round about?-Yes, it is very convenient.
4968. Does Jamieson receive your fish as well as attend to the
shop?-Yes. There is a factor under [Page 123] him who receives
the fish, but Jamieson is over all, both over the shop and the fish.
4969. What is the name of the factor who receives the fish?-It is
sometimes one man and sometimes another.
4970. Do you run an account at the shop?-Yes.
4971. Are you expected to deal there, or have you freedom to deal
where you like for what you want for your families?-We are
quite at liberty to deal anywhere we choose, if we had only the
means in our possession to do it.
4972. How is that you have not the means?-Because we have not
got the money.
4973. Does Mr. Grierson advance you money in the course of the
year before settlement when you ask for it?-He does.
4974. Can you not take that money and deal with it at any other
store that suits you better than Mr. Grierson's?-We do that very
often.
4975. Then, how is it that you say you have not the means of
dealing where you choose?-What I mean by that is, that we don't
have the chance to do it so often as we would like to do it; and we
don't like to be always running to him for money for the small
things we require. It is only in particular cases when we require a
pound or so to help us that we ask it from him.
4976. What other shops are there convenient for you?-The only
shop that I can make better out of than Mr. Grierson's in our
district is Mr. Gavin Henderson's at Scousborough.
4977. Is that near Dunrossness kirk?-It is to the north and west of
it.
4978. Do you prefer to go to Henderson's store because the goods
are cheaper and better there?-Yes.
4979. Are they both cheaper and better?-We generally think so.
4980. Can you give me any particular case in which you have
found them to be so?-I have never made an exact comparison of
the things to find out the precise difference; but when we are to
buy a suit of clothes for instance, we think we can make as good
bargain at Henderson's shop as we can do at any shop in Shetland.
4981. Have you bought a suit of clothes both at that shop and at
Mr. Grierson's?-I have never bought a full suit of clothes at Mr.
Grierson's, but I have done so at Gavin Henderson's.
4982. What is the price of meal at Quendale store?-I could not
tell exactly, because I have not had any there during the last two
years, my little farm having supplied me with all I wanted.
4983. What is the price of tea at the two stores?-The prices of tea
at both these stores are much the same. There are three different
prices of tea at the two stores, but we rather think that Henderson's
tea is generally better for the prices charged than Mr. Grierson's is.
4984. Have you tried the moleskins also?-Yes; and if I were
buying with ready money out of Grierson's shop, I don't think the
difference between them would be worth mentioning.
4985. But is there a difference according as you buy with ready
money or pay at the settlement?-Yes. If I buy a pair of trousers
for ready money, I get them down 1d. per yard. The cloth is
marked 3s. per yard, and I get 1d. off the yard. Then if I buy a
shirt of 3 yards, and if I pay ready money for it, I get reduction of
1d. per yard on 9d. or 10d.
4986. Do you get your goods cheaper at Henderson's shop even
with that discount?-Yes. If I go to Henderson's shop without the
money, he will not take any more for the goods than he would do
even if I had the money with me.
4987. Will he give you the goods as cheap as at Grierson's?-Yes;
as cheap as if I had bought them at Grierson's with ready money.
4988. Is there any other reason why you would prefer not to deal at
Mr. Grierson's shop for your goods?-We would have no great
objection to deal at his shop if we were paid a little better for our
fish. It is our opinion that we are not paid for our fish altogether
as we might be.
4989. But you get the currency of the country?-Yes; and we sign
for that.
4990. Do you think you should get more than the currency of the
country?-We cannot exactly judge of the state of the market, but
from what we hear and from what we see in the papers, we think
the merchants take rather too much profit, and that we would be a
little better if we received the money for the sale of our fish
ourselves.
4991. Do you think you would be better off if you had a price
fixed for your fish at so much per cwt. at the beginning of the
season?-That would depend upon circumstances.
4992. Taking a number of years together, do you think you could
make a better bargain for yourselves in that way?-I think so. The
three men I mentioned in Sandwick parish generally give an
agreement to state something like what they will give, and they
seem to stand by it pretty well whatever the price may be.
4993. Would the fishermen not object to that sort of
arrangement?-I don't know. I don't think the fishermen in
general would object to any agreement by which they might know
what they were working for during the season, although I really
cannot say that they could make any more decided efforts for
catching fish than they do under present circumstances.
4994. But even although the price were fixed at the beginning of
the season, the fishermen would still have an inducement to exert
themselves as much as possible in order that they might have a
large catch?-They would; but I say that I don't know how they
could exert themselves to do more than they do already.
4995. Still, they would have exactly the same reason for
exertion?-Yes.
4996. Do you think if the price were fixed at the beginning of the
season, and it turned out that the current price of fish was much
higher than that fixed with the men at the commencement, they
would try to get out of their bargain, and demand the higher price
that was current?-There comes the difficulty. We who catch the
fish would always like to get as high a price for them as we can;
but if we make an agreement, we must stand by it. However, if the
merchants could afford to give 6d. or 1s. more according to the
state of the markets, and did not give it, we would rather look
down upon them for taking such a large price, and not giving us
part of the advantage of it.
4997. But you ought to recollect that in another year you might
have made a bargain for the same price, and the price received by
the fish-curers might be less, so that there would be a loss to
them?-Yes; but, I think the men in general would be prepared to
run the risk of the rise and fall in the markets in that way, or, if
they made a bargain, they would stick to it.
4998. Have you known any case in which men engaged to fish on
such terms, and finding the price higher than that which they had
bargained for, asked that higher price from the fish-curer?-I
cannot say that I have known any case.
4999. You don't know whether that has ever occurred in
Shetland?-No, I don't know anything about that.
5000. Do you know anything about the employment of beach
boys?-A little. I had a boy employed this year at the beach.
5001. Is there considered to be an obligation upon the Quendale
tenants to allow their sons to be employed as beach boys?-Yes,
whenever called for.
5002. Is that obligation enforced?-Yes, it is just the same as with
all the rest. The landlord says, 'If I call for your son to cure fish
for me, and you object to it, then I can lay whatever penalty I
choose upon you, and either remove you or impose a fine.'
5003. Do you know of any case where that has occurred?-No;
because the tenants know exactly what the consequences would
be, and they are frightened to do anything in opposition to their
landlord's wishes. We are all poor people together, and not very
well able to bear fines or removals.
[Page 124]
5004. What are the wages for a beach boy?-An active beach boy
for his first year at Quendale will get 30s. for about five months in
the year. That is his whole wage.
5005. Could he get more in any other employment in Shetland?-
In some cases Messrs. Hay's factor would give more for beach
boys than they would get beside us.
5006. What is the age of a boy who would get that wage?-From
twelve to fourteen or sixteen years; and if a boy goes two or three
years to the beach, his wages are raised every year.
5007. How are their wages paid?-If they take goods from the
shop, these are marked down against them.
5008. Are they marked down in the father's account, or in a
separate account in the boy's own name?-In a separate account
in the boy's own name.
5009. Has your son been long in that employment?-I have only
had one of my sons at it for one year.
5010. Is he to be employed this year again in the same way?-Yes.
5011. Had he a balance in his favour when he was settled with?-
He has not been settled with yet. He was employed for the year
which has just come to an end; but I don't think he will have very
much to get, as he had no clothes to speak of when he began, and
he was very glad of the chance of winning a little, so that he might
get a suit of clothes.
5012. Has it been a common case within the last two or three years
for the fishermen who are employed in the way you have described
to have a balance in their favour at settlement, or have they usually
had balance against them?-During the last two or three years a
good many of Mr. Grierson's fishermen have had a very good
balance to come to them to account, but I and some others have
been behind and could not get clear.
5013. Are there many of that sort?-There are few.
5014. Is it worse for a man of that kind to leave and get free of his
obligation to fish than for a man that has cash to receive to do
so?-Under Mr. Grierson's arrangement there is no difference
between the two kinds of men as regards getting their liberty to
fish to any other man, because none of them have any such liberty.
5015. The obligation to fish depends on the holding of land; it
does not depend on the amount of debt due to Mr. Grierson?-No,
it does not depend upon that.
5016. Are there many men there who fish for Mr. Grierson and
who do not hold land?-Yes, there are a good few.
5017. Are they under any obligation to fish for him?-They are all
under one obligation from head to foot.
5018. How does that happen in the case of men who do not hold
land?-Because they are all on Mr. Grierson's ground.
5019. Would the party they live with be warned if they were not to
fish for him?-That was in his first arrangement.
5020. Is that arrangement still in force?-I never knew of any
alteration being made upon it.
5021. Have you been told anything about that obligation since it
was read over to you in 1861?-No; there have been no cases in
which it has been broken except the two I have mentioned, and we
saw what happened.
5022. But you have not been spoken to about it at all?-No.
5023. Or reminded about it?-No, we have never been reminded
about it; but we signed then to fish for Mr. Grierson, and we have
heard of no other arrangement.
5024. How do you supply yourselves with fishing materials?-We
generally take them from Mr. Grierson's shop.
5025. Are you under any sort of obligation to take them from
there?-We are just under the same sort of obligation to take them
from his shop as we are to take anything, because we generally
cannot get them anywhere else. We never ask money to go and get
them anywhere else, although it is our opinion that if we could go
elsewhere, we would get them a little cheaper-that is, our fishing
lines.
5026. Where would you go for them?-We could buy them in
some shops in Lerwick a little cheaper.
5027. But you would have a long way to carry them if you were to
buy them here?-Yes; but we don't think much of our travel
sometimes when we can make good bargain.
5028. Have you anything more to say about the state of matters in
your neighbourhood?-I have nothing more to say at present; only,
if I am at liberty to do so, I should like to say on Mr. Grierson's
behalf that, as a landlord, he has been very favourable to me and to
many of the tenants. He has supplied us with goods and helped us,
when we were not very well able to help ourselves; and he has
continued to do that in my case to the present time. If I am in debt
to him, he never charges me for that debt; but I am at liberty to sell
any animal off my farm if I choose, without him asking anything
about it.
5029. Are you a little behind just now?-I am a good bit behind
just now.
5030. But you could still get an advance of money if you needed
it?-Yes. The shopkeeper told me when I was settling, that if I
wanted from 1s. to £1, I could get it from him any time I asked for
it.
5031. Do you get all your things at his shop?-Not altogether.
When I have a little money beside me, I can get them from any
quarter. The fact is that I sometimes go there with money, and get
the things cheaper than if I were getting them on credit. For
instance, if I ask for a quarter pound of stick tobacco, I will get it
for 1s. if I pay for it with money; while if it is marked down to me,
it will be 1s. 1d. Now, we do think that is very unreasonable, as
they have a profit both on our fish and on our goods, and we are
very much dissatisfied about it.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, GEORGE GOUDIE, examined.
5032. You are a fisherman and tenant on the estate of Mr. Grierson
of Quendale?-Yes; at Garth.
5033. Have you heard the evidence of James Flawes?-Yes.
5034. Is it generally a correct statement of the obligation you are
under to fish to Mr. Grierson, and of the way in which you settle
for your fish?-So far as I know, it is.
5035. Do you get money paid to you when you want it in the
course of the season?-Yes.
5036. But is the greater part of the price of your fish got out in
goods from Mr. Grierson's shop?-Yes, the greater part.
5037. What balance did you receive at last settlement?-I had no
balance to receive. It was against me.
5038. Had most of the men a balance against them at last
settlement?-I suppose the greater part of them had.
5039. Have you got a note of your settlement?-No.
5040. Did you get any receipt or pass-book or account?-No.
5041. Is your account read over to you at the settlement?-Yes, if
we want to have it read. The shop account, if we want it, will be
read over to us.
5042. If it is not read over, how do you know whether it is
correctly charged or not?-The men who do not keep a note of
their accounts for themselves cannot know whether they are
correct or not even by hearing them read over.
5043. Are you generally content to trust to the shopkeeper for the
accuracy of your account?-Yes.
5044. Do you know anything about the quality of the meal that is
sold there, and the price of it?-Yes.
5045. Have you been getting meal from the shop [Page 125]
during the last year or two?-Yes. Mr. Grierson's meal last year
was from 2s. to 3s. per boll above what Mr. Gavin Henderson
charged for his.
5046. Was the quality of Henderson's meal as good?-Yes; quite
as good.
5047. Have you tried them both in your own house?-Yes.
5048. What was the price of the one and of the other?-Mr.
Grierson's bear-meal was 14s. per boll-that is Shetland grain;
and Gavin Henderson charged 12. for Shetland meal also.
5049. Does Mr Grierson's shopkeeper charge the same price for
meal all through the year?-Yes; for the same kind of meal.
5050. All the meal of the same kind in your account is charged at
the same rate throughout the year?-Yes.
5051. But at Gavin Henderson's, it is charged to you according to
the price at the time you buy it: the price varying at different
periods of the same year?-Yes, it varies a little; but Mr.
Grierson's meal also varies when the price elsewhere varies.
5052. Then you may have meal charged at different rates in the
same account?-Yes.
5053. Is there any other article, the price of which you have
compared with what you could get it for elsewhere?-Yes, there is
tobacco. If we buy a single ounce we pay 31/2d., and 2 oz. 6d., at
Quendale store. In Gavin Henderson's we can get a single ounce
for 3d., and 2 oz. are charged 6d. also.
5054. Is there anything else you can speak to?-No, I don't think
there is anything else.
5055. Is there anything else you wish to say in addition to what
James Flawes has said?-No.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, CHARLES EUNSON, examined.
5056. You are a fisherman, and a tenant of Mr. Grierson's at
Waterbru?-I am.
5057. Is that near Quendale?-It is about a mile and a half away.
5058. Have you heard the evidence of James Flawes and George
Goudie?-Yes.
5059. Is it generally correct with regard to the system of dealing at
the shop and for your fish?-I think so.
5060. Is there anything you wish to add to it?-Nothing with
respect to that; but I had a little experience once with regard to
liberty money. Before the time when Mr. Grierson and Mr. Bruce
took the fishings into their own hands-for they were both in
company when they started with that-we had enjoyed our liberty
all along, and had never been obliged to fish for our proprietors;
but at that time we were taken in hand along with the rest of Mr.
Grierson's tenants, and we had to fish for them. That lasted only
for three years, and then the contract was broken, and each started
on his own account.
5061. Was that before or after the statement which was made by
Mr. Grierson at Quendale?-It was three years after it. When the
contract was broken, Mr. Grierson had no place handy for us to
land our fish at and deliver them to him, as we lived farther from
Quendale than the rest of his tenants; and therefore at that time
again we got our liberty and fished for whom we chose. He
exacted nothing for that, and things went on in that way, I think,
for three years; but at the end of that time Mr. Grierson took a
station at Voe, on the east side of the parish, where he had had no
place previously, and he told us that we would be obliged to
deliver our fish to him, like the rest of his tenants. During the
three years before we were put under that obligation, we had been
fishing at the Ness, and had been at considerable trouble and
expense in forcing a beach, and making other things right for
curing our own fish. We were unwilling to lose the whole of that,
and we applied to Mr. Grierson to allow us to continue to fish at
the Ness; and he told us that if we paid three guineas of liberty
money, he would allow us to fish there. We offered to pay that
liberty money for one season, but it was a bad season; there were
not many fish, and the price was low; and we went to Mr Grierson
and asked him if he would take our fish. He consented to take
them in a dry state; and he deducted 6d. per cwt. for the three
guineas for every cwt. we delivered to him; so the result was that
we had to pay him about £1 and upwards.
5062. In what year was that?-It is four years ago; it must have
been in 1867.
5063. Then these fish would be settled for at the annual
settlement?-Yes.
5064. Did you get any account of that year's settlement?-No; I
would have got it if I had asked for it, but I never asked it.
5065. Who did you settle with that year?-With Mr. Grierson
himself.
5066. You did not settle with Mr. Jamieson?-No; he had not
come to the place at that time. There was another man there in the
place which Mr. Jamieson now has, but we did not settle with him.
5067. Do you know anything about the price or quality of the meal
at Quendale store as compared with other places?-It is a great
deal better now than it used to be eleven or twelve years ago; it
was not very satisfactory then, but it is not so bad now. The
difference between the meal there and at other places is still
something, but not so much so as it was.
5068. Do you get meal there?-Yes, frequently; and frequently at
other places.
5069. I suppose you get it there, or at other places, according to the
state of your account at the time?-Yes; or rather according to my
interest. Mr. Grierson has never refused to give me anything
reasonable that I asked him. He has been very generous in that
way all along.
5070. Have you any boys on the beach?-I have one boy who has
been engaged this year for the first time for Mr. Grierson.
5071. Had you any desire to have him engaged elsewhere?-I
would not have minded much if he had never gone to the beach at
all; it is not a very good berth for a boy. In the previous year they
asked me if I would allow him to go to the beach, and I said I
would rather not, as I required his services myself; but this season
they asked me for him again. Perhaps they would not have taken
him against my will, but Mr Grierson might have thought I was
rather obstinate if I refused again, and so I let him go. I did not
like to refuse when Mr. Grierson asked me.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, LAURENCE LESLIE, examined.
5072. You are a fisherman, and a tenant on Mr. Grierson's land at
Hillwill?-I am only a fisherman, but I pay a little rent along with
my father.
5073. Are you any relation of the witness Laurence Leslie who was
previously examined?-No.
5074. You have heard the evidence of the previous witnesses from
Quendale?-Yes.
5075. Is it generally correct?-I think it is.
5076. Is there anything you could add to it?-I don't think so.
5077. Although you are not a tenant, do you consider yourself
bound to fish to Mr. Grierson?-Yes, I am bound to do so.
5078. You could be free from that obligation, however, by leaving
the ground?-Yes.
5079. Do you run an account in your own name at Mr. Grierson's
shop?-No. I get a little from the shop sometimes, but I buy what
I want where I think most convenient.
5080. Do you get payment in money from Mr. Grierson?-Yes.
5081. Can you get all your payment in money from him if you
like?-Yes.
[Page 126]
5082. Do you get that money in the course of the year, or at the
end of the season?-Just when we settle once a year.
5083. You don't get advances in the course of the year?-No; I
don't seek any before the end of the year.
5084. Then you have always cash in hand?-Yes.
5085. You are a little ahead of the world?-Yes.
5086. Have you any beach boys in your family?-No; but I was a
beach boy myself about fifteen years ago.
5087. That was before there was any obligation on the Quendale
people to fish for their landlord?-Yes.
5088. At that time how was the arrangement made with beach
boys?-I wrought for five months, and I got 10s.
5089. Was that paid to you in goods or in money at the
settlement?-I got it in money at the settlement.
5090. Was that the usual way of settling at that time?-Yes.
5091. Is it the usual way still that a beach boy gets payment of his
wages in money?-I believe so.
5092. Does he not run an account at the store?-I don't know
anything about that myself.
5093. Have you anything to add to what the other men have
said?-My wife sent up a shawl to a sister of mine in Lerwick to
have it sold, and she sold it to Laurenson & Co. I came up to
Lerwick some time afterwards, in the course of the spring, to take
down a boat, and I went to the shop to get payment of the shawl. I
was not requiring cottons or drapery goods, but I was requiring a
pair of trousers; and when I went to the shop, I was shown a piece
of tweed which I fixed upon to take, but the merchant refused to
give me the cloth for the shawl, because it was a money article,
and I had to take soft goods and other things which were of no use
to me.
5094. Would he not have given you the cloth in exchange for the
shawl at a somewhat higher rate than he would have given it to
you for cash?-He would not give it to me at all, and I had to take
the cottons and stuff that were of very little use to me.
5095. Did you take these home?-No.
5096. Have you had any other dealings of that sort?-No.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, JOHN BURGESS, examined.
5097. You are a fisherman, and a tenant under Mr. Grierson at
Hillwill?-Yes.
5098. Have you heard the evidence that has been given by James
Flawes and the other witnesses from Quendale, with regard to Mr.
Grierson's fishing business, and their dealings at his shop?-Yes.
5099. Is that evidence correct, so far as you know?-Yes,
5100. Have you anything to add to it?-Nothing.
5101. Do you know anything about the engagement of beach
boys?-Yes.
5102. Are there some of them in your family?-Yes; I have had a
son employed as a beach boy for two years. His wages for the first
year were 30s., and for the second year, 35s.
5103. Was that wage fixed at the commencement of the year or at
settlement time?-It was not fixed until settlement. I did not
know what he was working for until then.
5104. Was he running an account at the time in the shop books?-
A small one. It was very little he was requiring, and he got the
balance in money.
5105. Was there any obligation on him to go as beach boy to Mr.
Grierson?-Yes.
5106. Could you not have engaged him anywhere else?-No; I
wanted to keep him at home beside myself, because I was
requiring him, but Mr Jamieson told me he was requiring him at
the beach, and I must just let him go; and therefore I preferred to
put up with a little hardship to myself and my family, and allowed
him to go to the beach.
5107. When did Mr. Jamieson tell you that?-When he came and
asked me to allow my boy to go.
5108. Was that before the commencement of the first year which
he served?-Yes.
5109. Did you make any objection when Mr. Jamieson asked you
for him?-Yes, I objected a little. I said I would be glad to keep
him at home; but Mr. Jamieson said I would better just let him go,
and I did so, without any more hesitation.
5110. Do you know anything about the difference in the price of
meal at Mr. Grierson's store, and at others?-No; I have had very
little to do with the store.
5111. Do you not deal there?-I deal for a few small things, but
very little.
5112. Do you buy most of your provisions and other things from
other stores?-Yes, for the most part.
5113. Where do you get them?-From Mr. Henderson's.
5114. Are you quite at liberty to go there for them-Yes.
5115. Can you get advances of money from Mr. Grierson in the
course of the year for the purpose of buying goods at Henderson's
and other stores?-Yes. If I was asking for advances, I would get
them; but I don't ask for any until settling time, and then I get the
balance, whatever it is, freely.
5116. Have you an account against you at that time?-Yes.
5117. Have you any pass-book?-No, I don't keep any pass-book.
5118. Is your account read over to you at settlement time?-Yes.
5119. And you see that it is correct?-Yes; so far as my judgment
leads me.
5120. But you say you don't get many goods at the store: is that
because you can get them cheaper elsewhere?-Perhaps that is
sometimes the reason, and sometimes I don't require the things
which are there. I always take my fishing materials, lines and
hooks, and other things of that kind, from the store.
5121. Are these things reasonably priced?-We suppose they are
much the same as in other places in the neighbourhood.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, HENRY LESLIE, examined.
5122. You are a fisherman, and a tenant under Grierson at
Gord?-I am.
5123. You have heard the evidence of Flawes and the others?-
Yes.
5124. Do you agree with it, so far as you know?-Yes.
5125. You know the facts which have been stated by them to be
true?-Yes.
5126. Have you been a long time a tenant on that estate?-Yes; for
fifty years at any rate.
5127. At the commencement of that period, were you free to fish
to any one you liked?-No; there has always been a bond on that
estate to fish to Mr. Grierson, or to any one to whom the fish were
let. That has been the case all my time, and I have been more than
sixty years there.
5128. Have you fished to anybody else during any part of that
time?-No; it was always to him. There were three years when
Mr. Bruce and Mr Grierson were in company together.
5129. But before that you were not free?-No; I never knew a time
when we were free all the time I have been there.
5130. Who did you fish to before that?-To Mr. Grierson and to
his father. I fished to the present Mr. Grierson's grandfather, and I
was at the beach to him.
5131. Was he a fish-curer and fish-merchant also?-Yes.
[Page 127]
5132. Was that property ever set in tack to a
fish-merchant?-Yes; but that was before my day.
5133. Has the obligation to fish always been a part of the condition
on which you held your land?-Yes.
5134. Were you present at the time when young Mr. Grierson
intimated to the tenants that he was taking the fishing into his own
hands?-Yes; I and every man and boy on the estate were all
assembled in the same room, and we all heard the same agreement
read
5135. Was not that the beginning of the present state of things
under which you are now bound to fish?-Yes.
5136. Then you were free before that?-No, we were not free; but
we wrought upon a different scale.
5137. Were you bound at that time to fish for Mr. Grierson?-Yes.
5138. Is there anything you wish to add to the statement which the
other men have made about the present state of things?-I have
nothing to add to what the other Quendale men have stated.
5139. Have you been getting meal from Mr. Grierson's store?-
No; I have got none there for the last two years. I required none
during that time.
5140. Have you had plenty to supply you from your own
ground?-Yes; or I had bought it at a roup when other people were
going out.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, PETER MOUAT SANDISON, examined.
5141. You are inspector of poor in the parish of Fetlar and North
Yell?-I am.
5142. You were formerly engaged in the fish-curing trade?-I was,
for a considerable time.
5143. Have you heard the evidence of any of the witnesses who
have been examined here to-day?-I have.
5144. Was the mode of paying for fish, and the way in which the
accounts of the fishermen were settled at the end of the year, much
the same in Yell when you were engaged in the business as you
have heard described?-Yes, the settlement was much the same.
5145. Was it made about the same season of the year?-It was
generally made about 20th November on towards the end of the
year.
5146. Does the fisherman who is employed there by a merchant
usually open an account in that merchant's books for provisions
and soft goods and other things which he wants for his family?-
Yes, he does, almost invariably.
5147. In your experience, is that account pretty nearly even on the
two sides, or is there a balance due on the one side or on the other
at the end of the year?-That, of course, depends a great deal upon
the party who is running the account. There is a difference in men
as well as in merchants and fish-curers. Some have larger families
and require a great deal more supplies than others. Some have
smaller families, and the produce of their own farms can serve
them for a longer period in the year than others. From various
causes the amount of their supplies is very different; but for the
last three years I should say there have been only about 20 to 25
per cent of them who have not had money to get at settlement.
5148. It has been said that it is an important thing for the success
of a merchant to get his fishermen into debt to him, so that he may
secure their services for the succeeding year: would you consider
that a safe policy to pursue on the part of a merchant?-I was a
fish-curer and merchant for twelve years myself, and I am always
considered it to be the best policy to have clear men
5149. Did you find that, as a rule, the best men were clear in your
books?-Decidedly. I never found that debt afforded me any hold
whatever upon a man.
5150. Then you found the case to be rather the reverse of what I
have stated?-Yes; and the reason why I think it was the reverse
is, that no man was in debt who could help it, and generally a man
who was in debt was found to be an extravagant, careless man, or
there was something wrong with him. Whenever a man got a
certain depth into debt, he did not care how much deeper he went;
and if I refused him further supplies at the shop, then he just went
to another merchant.
5151. Or he might go south?-Occasionally he did, but not often.
These kind of men don't go south.
5152. But if he went to another man, you could charge him for
your debt?-Yes; my only recourse was to summon him; but what
was the use of doing that. I would only have lost the expense of
my summons, because he had nothing that I could take from him;
or if he had anything, his landlord generally came in with his right
of hypothec.
5153. Could you not arrest the proceeds of his fishing in the hands
of the other merchant to whom he had gone?-No; I think that is
not legal. I have tried it, but I could not succeed. A considerable
number of the men who left me one year went to another fishcurer,
who happened to be their own proprietor. He had not been curing
fish previously. I summoned several of them; and with one of
them especially I had a case in court in Lerwick for a considerable
time. It was ultimately decided that the merchant, as proprietor,
should pay the expense to which I had been at; but as to the
account, I did not get one penny of it. I got my expenses and
nothing more. I give it up as hopeless case.
5154. Had these fishermen been obliged to leave your service and
go to fish for their proprietor?-Yes; at that time they were
obliged to do so.
5155. He had regarded it as part of the obligation under which they
held their land that they should fish for him?-He had not been
carrying on the fishing previously; and he allowed the men to fish
for me, or, least, for the firm which I was conducting; but when he
took the fishing into his own hands, he required his men to fish for
himself.
5156. I suppose he agreed to pay the expenses of the case you
mentioned because he felt it was some hardship to you to deprive
you of the services of these men?-It was his lawyer and mine, I
think, who agreed together about the expenses.
5157. Was the proprietor to whom you refer Mr. Henderson?-No.
5158. Was it Mr M'Queen?-No.
5159. Was he a proprietor in Yell?-Yes.
5160. How many fishermen did you generally employ?-At one
time I employed 90.
5161. Would the whole of these men have accounts in your shop
books?-Yes.
5162. Can you give me some idea of what amount of the proceeds
of their fishing would be paid for by their account for goods?-
The lowest amount that I ever had in an account for goods, when I
settled with a man, was 21/2d. for a whole twelvemonth-the man
got the rest in cash; and the highest, if I remember right, was
somewhere about £10. 10s.
5163. What balance would remain due to that man?-Some years,
of course, he would be in debt; but in other years he would have
something to get.
5164. Was it a very good year in which the man had taken ten
guineas worth from your shop, or was that about the average
amount of their shop accounts?-I am talking about the average
accounts for the twelve years during which I was carrying on the
business. In the last year when I carried on the business on my
own account, the most money I paid to any man for fish was £22.
5165. What would be the amount of that man's contra account for
goods?-I think about six guineas.
5166. Would that be a fair specimen of the accounts?-No; that
was an extra year. There was an extra quantity of fish taken, and
an extra price paid for them; and that man's boat, I think, was the
highest fished boat an the whole station.
5167. But would that be a fair specimen of the amount of goods
which a man took throughout the season?-No.
[Page 128]
5168. Do you think it would be more, or less, an average?-It
would be more than the average. I should say that about £3, 10s.
would be a pretty fair average in our quarter, taking young men,
tenants, and non-tenants all together.
5169. Is it the practice in the trade in Yell to give the fisherman a
state of his account at the end of the year?-No; it is not the
practice.
5170. Or a pass-book?-We always wanted them to keep a
pass-book, but they would very seldom do it. They could not be
troubled with it. Sometimes they would take a pass-book and
bring it for a few times, and then, perhaps, they would not bring it
again for month.
5171. Does that arise from their own carelessness; or is it from a
notion that the shopkeeper cannot be troubled entering the goods
in a book as they are got, because he is too busy to do so?-I never
knew that to be the case; but I have heard many of the men say
they had confidence in their merchant, and that they would not be
bothered to keep a pass-book.
5172. When that was the case, did you, at the settlement, read
over the accounts to the fishermen item by item?-Yes, in most
cases; but some men won't be at the bother of even hearing their
accounts read over. They just say, 'We know you won't cheat us,'
and they hear the sum-total.
5173. Then it is their own fault if they do not know what their
account contains?-Of course it is.
5174. Is it the men who make the settlement with you, or their
wives?-The men, generally.
5175. Then they don't know what they have got out of the shop, if
it is their wives who have been dealing there?-Probably not; but
there is a whole day given to the settlement with these men, and
they have plenty of time to examine into their accounts if they
think there anything wrong.
5176. Did you do anything in hosiery?-I did.
5177. When you bought hosiery goods, did you usually send them
to the south?-Yes.
5178. Did you send any to merchants in Lerwick?-I generally
sent knitted goods to the south; and the worsted I sent to Lerwick.
5179. You bought worsted yourself?-Yes; yarn made by the
country people themselves with their own wool.
5180. What is the usual price for Shetland worsted?-From 2d. to
7d. per cut.
5181. That comes to how much per pound?-We never take it by
the pound; we always take it by the cut. 7d. a cut would, I
suppose, be about 2s. 6d. per ounce, or 40s. per pound.
5182. Would not that be very fine?-Yes.
5183. Would it be the finest Shetland worsted that is made?-I
think it is. I have never bought any finer than that, and I have not
been aware of any being bought finer.
5184. Then you sold that to merchants in Lerwick at some per
centage of profit to yourself?-Not one cent. I never, in all my
experience, got a cent for worsted beyond what I paid for it, and I
never asked it.
5185. Do you think the worsted you have mentioned is the finest
and dearest worsted that is sold out of the island to any
merchant?-I do.
5186. Did you ever know of any worsted being sold out of Yell as
high as 80s. or 90s. per pound?-I may be making a mistake the
weight. I was guessing 4 cuts to the ounce; but perhaps I may be
below the mark. The 7d. worsted I know is very fine; but never
weighed it, and I may be making an unintentional mistake in that
respect.
5187. The 7d. worsted might be lighter than you suppose, and
therefore a pound of it might be more expensive?-Yes.
5188. Is it a common thing to have worsted so fine as that?-No; it
is the exception.
5189. The average will be a good deal lower?-I should think 3d.
would be about the average.
5190. In dealing with people in Yell, you keep an account with the
fisherman?-Yes.
5191. Is there any separate account kept for supplies with the wife
and family?-Yes; there are separate accounts kept with them. I
don't suppose there are many families in the north in which each
member, after arriving at a certain age does not keep a separate
account.
5192. Is that in consequence of their being employed in the fish
trade, or from their having hosiery of their own making to dispose
of?-I don't think it is; but the husband or father is generally at the
fishing, and he supplies the heavy goods that are required for the
family-meal and such like-so far as he is able. Then the wife
has wool, which she either spins into worsted, or perhaps may sell.
She comes to the merchant herself with it and makes her own
bargain. Perhaps she may be due a little when she comes with this
day's supplies for stuff that she has been buying, and anything she
is due may be put to her own account; the next day she may have a
little over, and that is credited to her account. Then the girls, as
soon as they are able to knit, go to the shop on their own account
too with their knitting and with their spinning, and the merchant
upon his responsibility opens an account with them, if he thinks
proper; and they go on with these accounts until perhaps they are
married.
5193. Then hosiery is generally paid for in Yell with goods?-
There is seldom anything asked for except goods.
5194. The account for goods is added up on the one side, and the
account for hosiery on the other, and it is squared up now and
then?-The value of the hosiery is generally given in goods at the
time when the hosiery is sold.
5195. In Yell the hosiery is always sold; it is not made to order?-
No; there is no making to order in Yell.
5196. Is there a separate book kept for those dealings with the
females from that in which you enter your dealings with the
fishermen?-I think in most cases there is a separate book. At any
rate I kept a separate book, but I cannot speak for others.
5197. It has been said that that book is called the women's book: is
that so?-That was the name I gave to it.
5198. But you don't know whether other merchants give it that
name?-No; but I gave it that name because I had no other entries
in it except the accounts had against women.
5199. I understand it was only the home-fishing that you
engaged?-Yes.
5200. You had nothing to do with the Faroe fishing?-No.
5201. Do you think it would be any advantage for the merchants or
for the fishermen if the price to be given for the fish were fixed at
the commencement of the fishing season?-I think that would be
an advantage to the merchants, but not for the fishermen.
5202. How would the merchants benefit by that?-Because they
would then have no bargain to make with the fishermen.
5203. They would have to make a bargain at the commencement
of the year?-Yes; but suppose the bargain were to be, that the
fish were to be paid for at 8s. per cwt.; in that case the fishermen
would require to own his own boat and his own lines, and furnish
them himself, and the fish-curer or merchant would have no risk
and no loss, but would just pay exactly for what he got. But in the
case as it at present stands, the merchant has to furnish the boat
and lines, and salt, and everything connected with the fishing, and
he has the chance in North Yell, as is very often the case, of losing
£5 or £10 or £15 worth of lines in one day in the deep water. The
lines are often left there, and the men cannot get them.
5204. In what why does the merchant furnish the boat to the
men?-He buys the boat, and hires it, as well as the lines, to six
men.
5205. What is the amount of the hire?-£6 per season for boat and
lines.
5206. And that sum is deducted from the credit side of the
fisherman's account?-Yes. The six men come forward to me as
a fish-curer, and they wish me to [Page 129] employ them for the
fishing. I do so, and I give them a boat which, if it is a new boat
ready for sea, will cost £20. I also give them new lines, which,
along with the boat, will cost altogether from £35 to £40. They
agree to pay me £6 of hire for that for the time they use it, and to
deliver the fish caught by them with these lines and in that boat
to me. No price is fixed for the fish, but it is the general
understanding that they are to be paid at the highest currency of
the country. Well, they go to the fishing, and perhaps the very first
day, as I have known to be the case, they may have lost £15 worth
of lines; and as soon as they come ashore, they come to me, and I
have to give them other £15 worth.
5207. Do they not pay for the lines they have lost in that case?-
Not one penny; I take the risk. The sum which I charge covers all
risk, and that is all I get.
5208. Then the fishermen have not much inducement to be careful
of the lines or of the boat?-Oh yes; because if they lose lines,
they lose fish; and if they lose the boat, they stand a chance of
losing their own lives. I have not been a fisherman myself, but I
should fancy that no fisherman would willingly lose lines if he
could help it.
5209. Is it not the case that fishermen sometimes buy the boat
from the curer, and pay for it by instalments running over a certain
number of years?-Not in Yell.
5210. You have had no experience of that system of dealing?-I
cannot say that I have.
5211. Do you think it is of great importance to a fish-curer here to
have fishermen bound to fish for him? Does it tend greatly to
ensure his success in the fishing trade?-I don't know very well
how to answer that question. I had fishermen bound to me during
the period of my lease-about sixty of them I suppose.
5212. Was that a lease which you held of an estate in Yell?-Yes;
Major Cameron's.
5213. Did you lease the whole of Major Cameron's property in
North and Mid Yell?-Yes.
5214. Were these men all bound to fish for you?-They were
leased over to my brother, and I wrought out the business for him,
but the men were never compelled in any way. About one-third of
them were south-going men, and I should think about one-sixth of
them fished to others.
5915. You did not enforce the obligation which you understood
them to be under?-No; I never enforced it in any case but one.
5216. Had you always enough men to man your boats with?-We
had men belonging to other proprietors, and other proprietors had
men belonging to us, and none of us ever enforced that obligation
except in one case, and that was merely in order that we might put
out a boat to sea. There were five men engaged for the boat, and
we could not get another free man, so we had to take one.
5217. Was that long since?-Yes; it was in 1855. But I know of
men who have been offered this year and last year to get their
money every Saturday night, or every day when they landed fish,
and they would not accept it. These were men who were
thoroughly clear.
5218. Was it wages they were offered, or a price for the fish they
delivered?-A price for the fish they delivered. Suppose they
delivered 20 cwt. of fish to me, I would pay them for these fish.
5219. How was the price to be fixed in that case?-It would be
fixed at once.
5220. Would it be fixed at the beginning of the year?-Yes.
5221. Is it long since you proposed that arrangement to any
man?-It was at the settlement of 1870.
5222. Did you offer to pay certain men in that way at that time?-I
did not do it, because I was not in the fishing at that time, but I
was present when it was offered. It was the parties for whom I
was curing fish at that time who offered the money.
5223. Was that Spence & Co.?-Yes.
5224. The offer was made to men in Yell?-Yes.
5225. And the men declined that offer?-Yes; they declined taking
it. They said if they had as much money as would carry them
through the year, they would rather not take any more, but that
they could trust to the merchants.
5226. Was that offer made to many men?-To all their men in
Yell. There were 30 boats, with six men in each boat, and that
offer was made to the whole of them at Cullivoe. The same offer
was repeated this year, and they still would not accept of it. They
accept of not take their cash until the end of the year.
5227. Was that because they wanted to have something at the end
of the year with which to pay their rent?-I suppose that would be
one of their reasons; but they were afraid that if they got their cash
every Saturday, or every fortnight, or every month, they would
spend it carelessly and thoughtlessly, whereas they did not have
the money, they could not spend it.
5228. Are there any leases in Yell now?-Scarcely any.
5229. Have there been leases introduced lately?-No; but there
have been some offered-on Major Cameron's estate, and on Mr.
Irvine's.
5230. Do these leases contain any conditions as to fishing?-No.
5231. Were the conditions such as would interfere with fishing, or
do you know anything about that?-Mr. Irvine's leases were not
such as to interfere with the fishing in any way, and I think there
were three persons who accepted them. With regard to the other
leases, I do not say they were such as would interfere with the
fishings. There was a certain amount of work required to be done
on the farms during the year, but I think all that was required could
have been done when there was no fishing being prosecuted. At
that season, what I would call the fishing was not going on.
5232. But the tenants have not accepted that offer?-There are
two on Major Cameron's property who are under lease, I believe,
or who understand they are under leases. I am not aware if the
lease has ever been signed; I think not.
5233. The poor-rates in your parish, I understand are not so high
as in some parts of Shetland?-I suppose not. They are 3s. for
1872-1s. 6d. on the proprietor and 1s. 6d. on the tenant.
5234. Can you say, from your experience as an inspector of poor,
that pauperism is promoted in any degree by the system which
prevails of settling only once a year?-No; I should not say it was
increased in any way by that.
5235. Does not that system of long settlements induce people to be
a little careless about their money, and improvident?-There are a
certain class who, if they had money, would spend it. That class
are pretty well looked after by the fish-curer; they are only allowed
advances in such small proportions as enable them to get through
the year, and to be as little in arrear as possible at the end. If these
same parties had the money in their hands, I am certain it would
not last them so long as it does in the fish-curer's hands.
5236. That is to say, he will only allow them a certain amount of
supplies from the shop?-Yes; so much a week or a fortnight.
5237. Or cash if they want it, but to a limited extent?-Yes; I
should think that cash would be given to a free man.
5238. But not to a bound fisherman?-Not unless it was for a
necessary purpose-to purchase something, for instance, which
the merchant cannot supply.
5239. If a man is bound to fish to a proprietor or tacksman in Yell,
is that man bound to deal at the shop of his employer?-By no
means.
5240. By a free man, do you mean one who is not in debt?-Yes.
I don't mean to say that cash would be absolutely refused even to a
man who was in debt, but it would not be given to him unless it
was for a necessary purpose.
5241. Can you explain how beach boys are generally employed in
Yell?-Yes, I ought to have a pretty good idea of it.
[Page 130]
5242. Is an account opened at the shop at the same time that the
engagement is made in the beach boy's name, from which he can
get supplies if he wishes them?-Yes, sometimes.
5243. So that when he becomes a beach boy, he is virtually
independent of his father?-Not always. The fish-curer would
prefer not to open an account with him until the end of the season,
because generally, when a beach boy gets an account opened, he
will overrun it if he possibly can. Therefore we prefer not to open
an account with the boys themselves, but to deal with their fathers,
which we very often do. In the case, however, of an orphan boy,
or a boy who has got extravagant or helpless parents, we open an
account with himself.
5244. Is there any difficulty in procuring the services of beach
boys?-I never knew of any difficulty. I have cured fish since
1859, and I never had power over one, and I never wanted to have
it.
5245. You had not power over them even where you had the
fishermen bound to you?-No; they have not been bound for the
last seven years while I have been curing.
5246. Is it seven years since those fishermen on Major Cameron's
estate were bound?-Yes.
5247. At that time did the obligation apply to their families?-No.
5248. Then the boys were not obliged to be engaged to you as
beach boys?-No; we took any boy who was most convenient for
ourselves, without taking into consideration whose tenant his
father was.
5249. It has been said that there is an inclination on the part of the
fish merchant to get the beach boys into his debt, so as to secure
their services in the following year: is there any foundation for that
statement?-I have heard it said, but I never could believe it was
the case.
5250. Are the boys always quite ready to engage for that work?-
They are always very anxious to engage for it, because always
before they enter on hard labour they are able to take a turn on the
beach, and they get something for that.
5251. But what they get for it is generally settled for in goods at
the end of the year?-No, not generally. If a boy runs an account
himself, it is settled in goods; but if it is an account with his father,
it is settled in cash.
5252. May the proportion of the boys who have an account of their
own be about one-half or about one-third of them?-I should say
that for the last three years three-fourths of them have got an
account of their own; but then they were not boys. Although they
get the name of boys, they were old men and women.
5253. You mean that women are employed in that part of the
work?-Yes.
5254. What are their wages?-In 1870 the parties under my
control had from £4, 10s. down to 35s. according to age and
ability; and in 1871 the people employed were all boys except one
man: the boys had from 25s. to 35s., and the man had £3.
5255. Are you still in the fish-curing business?-Yes; I cure their
fish for Spence & Co.
5256. Have you a shop now?-No.
5257. Then you simply manage their curing business?-I merely
dry their fish for them.
5258. And the persons you have spoken of just now are still
employed by you for the purpose of curing?-Yes.
5259. How are their wages paid?-As I was curing Spence &
Co.'s fish, if they chose to go to Spence Co.'s at Uyea Sound
in Unst, they got supplies there in an account, but only about
one-fourth of them did so. The others got their supplies perhaps
in the neighbouring shops. I cannot say where they got them,
but they got cash from Spence & Co. at settling time.
5260. Was that cash advanced during the season, or was it all paid
at settlement?-It was all paid settlement. If they asked for an
advance, they would get it, but I was not aware of any being
advanced.
5261. But such advances as were made by Spence and Co. were
made by taking goods from their shop?-Yes, so far as I know. I
also bought kelp for Spence & Co.
5262. Is there much done in kelp there?-Yes, good deal.
5263. What is the nature of that trade? Do you employ a number
of people to gather the sea-weed?-It is women who do that.
They form themselves into companies of two or three or four;
they gather the seaweed and make the kelp, and then bring it to
a merchant to sell. I had a lease of Major Cameron's kelpshores,
but I transferred that lease to Spence & Co, and afterwards I
bought the kelp and delivered it over to them.
5264. Did the women pay anything to the proprietor for leave to
collect the sea-weed?-No; but I paid 20s. a ton, or rather Spence
& Co. did.
5265. You paid that money for the exclusive right of purchasing
from these women?-For the exclusive right of manufacturing
kelp., We can employ people to collect it if we choose, but we
think it better just to allow the women to do it themselves, without
being forced in any way; and then we paid them 4s. per cwt. in
cash for it, while we paid 20s. a ton to the proprietor and taxes.
5266. What taxes are there on the kelp?-Poor-rates, both as
proprietor and tenant.
5267. Then 4s. per cwt. is the whole payment which these women
receive for gathering the kelp and manufacturing it?-Yes.
5268. They manufacture it and bring it to you?-Yes.
5269. Are they paid entirely in cash?-They have been paid
almost entirely in cash this year, but not altogether.
5270. They have the option of running an account for it at the
shop?-Yes, if they choose to do so; but if they ask cash, they get
it.
5271. Are you aware of any restriction being imposed upon tenants
in Yell with regard to the disposing of their cattle or other stock on
their ground?-I have known an instance or two of that during my
experience in North Yell, but very seldom.
5272. Has that been done when they have been in debt to the
merchant?-Yes; if they were in debt, almost beyond redemption.
5273. Then the merchant has interfered as a creditor merely?-Not
the merchant, but the proprietor.
5274. Was it for his rent that he interfered?-Yes.
5275. In these cases was the proprietor a merchant as well?-Yes,
in some cases.
5276. And he has interfered both for his rent, and for the account
due to him as a merchant?-I cannot say about him being a
merchant. I always understood it was done for rent. I have known
of cattle being taken according to law for a shop account.
5277. You mean that they were poinded?-Yes, by a Sheriff's
warrant.
5278. But is there any practice in Yell of a man marking his cattle
as belonging to a merchant to whom he is in debt?-No; I never
knew that done.
5279. Or coming under an obligation not to sell them to any one
except that merchant?-I could quite believe that a tenant would
offer his cow or his pony, or whatever it might be, to the
proprietor; but I am not aware of any one being compelled to do so
in North Yell. I have myself marked a cow of a defaulting tenant
when I was acting as my brother's agent, and as lessee of Major
Cameron's property, but that was for the rent.
5280. Did you mark it and allow it to remain on the ground?-
Yes; I allowed it to continue in the tenant's hands until I might
think fit to remove it.
5281. Was that man in debt to you as well?-He was in debt as a
tenant only for rent.
5282. Was he not also in debt for goods supplied?-No; because
he was not a fisherman; he was a sailor.
5283. Would you give a higher price for kelp than 4s. a cwt. if the
women had taken payment of it in goods?-No; there was an
understanding at one time that parties would get 6d. less if they
took it in cash, [Page 131] but for the last two years, in my
experience with Spence & Co., and formerly with myself, the
women have been quite at liberty to take cash or goods, and 4s.
was the price. According to the terms of my lease, I was bound to
pay nothing less than 4s. to the parties who made it.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, JAMES BROWN, examined.
5284. You are a tenant under Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh at Toab,
Dunrossness, and you fish for him?-Yes.
5285. You have heard the evidence that was given by William
Goudie and the other fishermen to-day?-Yes.
5286. Do you know it to be correct with regard to the system of
fishing there, and the obligation to fish for Mr. Bruce of
Sumburgh?-Yes; so far as I can remember, it is correct.
5287. Did it happen some time ago that you had sold fish to
another than Mr. Bruce?-It was supposed so.
5288. What was done in consequence?-My house was offered to
be let to another tenant. It was publicly advertised at Messrs.
Hay's shop at Dunrossness.
5289. The you see the ticket put up?-No, I did not see it.
5290. But you knew of it?-Yes.
5291. And in consequence of what you heard about it, did you go
to Mr. Bruce?-Yes.
5292. What did you say? Did you ask why your farm was to be
let?-Yes. He told me before I had time to speak that he was
forced to offer my house to another tenant. I said there was surely
a cause for that, and he said that the cause was that I was selling
fish to another man.
5293. To whom did he say you were selling fish?-To Robert
Leslie.
5294. Was that the case?-No; I proved it not to be the case. I
told him I would bring proof of that if he required it, but I was
never called upon to do so.
5295. You satisfied Mr. Bruce that he was under a mistake, and
you still hold the same ground?-Yes.
5296. Had you reason to believe that you would really have been
turned out of your ground for selling your fish to another than Mr.
Bruce if you had done so?-I had every cause to think so.
5297. Why?-Because at the commencement, when he took the
fishing into his own lands, there was a letter read in my hearing, to
the effect that we were to deliver our fish to him.
5298. Is that the letter which Laurence Smith spoke of to-day?-
Yes, the same letter. It was read by John Harper in my hearing.
5299. Do you know whether the meal is dearer at Grutness store
than you can get it elsewhere?-Yes; I have got a little there.
5300. Have you bought it cheaper elsewhere?-Yes; I have bought
it in Lerwick, and I found it cheaper there than at the store. It was
in 1869 that I bought a boll of meal at Lerwick, and I paid £1, 3s.
for it, while their meal that season was 24s.
5301. Was there any difference in the weight of the boll at
Grutness?-I could not prove that. I had a running account there,
and I sometimes got a boll, sometimes half a boll, and sometimes a
peck; but when I came to settle, it was all run up into bolls, and I
paid 24s. a boll for it.
5302. Had you any reason to suppose that you did not get the same
weight in a boll from the store that you got anywhere else?-I
made an objection to that, and I was told there was a little
deduction made when I got 32 lbs. for a quarter boll instead of 35
lbs, but what that difference was I never knew.
5303. Who told you that?-Gilbert Irvine, the factor.
5304. Did he tell you that he only gave you 32 lbs. for a quarter
boll?-I saw the weight myself. What we call a quarter boll is 35
lbs, and what is called a lispund is 32 lbs.; so that there should be a
difference between what we call boll weight, and 32 lbs. for the
quarter boll.
5305. Then you suspect or believe that you only got a lispund
instead of a quarter boll?-Yes; I am under that impression,
whether I am correct or not.
5306. Had you not the means of satisfying yourself about that?-
Perhaps I might if I had inquired, but I never made any strict
inquiry about it.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, HENRY SINCLAIR, examined.
5307. You are a tenant on the Simbister estate at Levenwick?-
Yes; and I was formerly bound under a tacks-master.
5308. That was Robert Mouat?-Yes.
5309. You were bound to fish for him?-Yes.
5310. Who told you that you were so bound?-He told me himself.
5311. Did anybody else tell you that?-No.
5312. Was it understood in the neighbourhood that you were
bound to give all your fish to him?-Yes; all my neighbours
understood the same.
5313. Did you at any time deliver your fish to another?-Not one
tail. I delivered them all to him during his tack.
5314. Was there one time when he gave you warning to leave?-
On one occasion, when we had a good fishing, he sent away 7 cwt.
of wet fish and kept it off us. My son was fishing with me at the
time, and he went to Mouat; and they rather cast out about it at
Mouat's house, and he told my son then that we should not be
allowed to sit.
5315. Then it was because of a quarrel about the quantity of fish
entered in the fish-book that you got your warning?-Yes.
5316. You were not warned out because you gave your fish to
another dealer?-No; that was not the cause of it. Then, Mouat
would not give me half of the land to sit in, in case my son sat
beside me.
5317. Do you mean that he wanted your son to fish for him?-No;
he thought that because they had cast out, if I got any land at all,
my son would stay beside me; and that upset my son and made
him lose his senses, so that he is now in the Asylum.
5318. How did that upset your son?-Because he was of a quick
spirit, and he was grieved that we should have been put out of the
land.
5319. But you were not put out of the land?-We were. I went to
the sea, and Mouat took my wife to a piece of the hill-side and
showed her there where we should build our house on a piece of
the open hill.
5320. Did you build your house there?-Yes. He said that if we
would not build our house there, we might lie at the back of a
dyke.
5321. Did you fish for him after that?-Yes.
5322. Were you bound to do so?-My son would not fish, but I
was still upon the land, and I just fished for him.
5323. Did you get your provisions at Mouat's store at
Sandwick?-Yes; I could do nothing else than go to him, and he
has brought me to poverty.
5324. Did you get your meal and other things there?-Yes; I had
to go there for them all.
5325. Did you run an account with him, and settle it when you
settled for your fish at the end of the year?-Yes.
5326. Had you ever a balance to get in money?-I had money in
his hands when I was put out of the land.
5327. Up till the time when Mouat left the place, were you getting
money from him year by year?-I was just getting out of the shop
what I required, for I never got into debt to him.
5328. If anything was over did you get it in money [Page 132] at
the settlement?-No; but the worst thing he did was he last time
when he was going about looking for cattle which he could pick
out and put away.
5329. Did he pick out any from you?-Yes. He took the last one I
had, and he promised to give me a cow for it next week, but it has
never come yet.
5330. Did you get any meal at Mouat's store?-The greater part of
it was fit for nothing but the pigs.
5331. Could you have got it better at any other place near you?-
Yes; but we could not get money from him, and therefore we had
to take the meal from his store.
5332. Would he never advance you money for your fish?-No.
5333. You are not under that obligation now, but you can fish for
anybody you like?-I am not fishing now; I am too old.
5334. But the people thereabout can fish for anybody they like?-
Yes.
<Adjourned.>
Brae: Wednesday, January 10, 1872.
<Present>-Mr. Guthrie.