not fishing themselves (suppose ministers or the schoolmasters, as
these are the only parties in the Islands no way connected with the
fishings), cannot get fish to purchase for their own use. This is
quite absurd; no such restriction was ever heard of or imagined,
either by proprietors; tacksmen, or tenants.
'And next, as to tea sellers, had not the Excise interfered to put
down the practice, every other house in Burra would have been a
shop in a small way to sell, not only tea, but other goods of a less
harmless description that had not always passed through a
custom-house. The tacksmen plead guilty to using their best
endeavours to assist in shutting up these shops, but they deny that
they have ever interfered with the Burra people directly or
indirectly in the sale of their cattle, hosiery, or produce of any
kind, except fish. Nor have they ever placed a shop in the Islands
for sake of the tenants custom, as they might have done, but left
them free to sell such produce and obtain their supplies where they
liked.
'Trondra is referred to as a free island; but does Mr. Mack's
correspondent suppose the people are in better circumstances on
that account? And is he aware of the amount of arrears due to the
landlord? the tenants' earnings, in most cases, being spent as fast
as they are made. If the tenants in the other islands mentioned are
free also, it is not generally understood to be the case, and it
happens at this very time two tenants from these <free> islands
have taken farms, and are about to remove to the land of
bondage-Burra.'
3971. Is it the case that no other shop than yours is allowed in
Burra?-Yes.
3972. You say that if shops were allowed there, every other
house would be used as a shop, and every person would set up
for selling tea and other goods?-Yes. What I referred to there
was, that the Burra people were in the habit of bringing home a
quantity of uncustomed goods from Faroe, and going round the
country and selling them elsewhere. We set our face against
that, and endeavoured to put it down.
3973. Has there been a tendency to that in the Faroe fishing?-Not
lately; because some of the people were severely punished for it.
3974. But formerly there was a tendency that way?-At first there
was a good deal done in that way, but now I don't think there is
anything.
3975. You are not aware whether there is any smuggling in the
Shetland Islands at present?-Two or three years ago, there were
some of the crews severely punished for that, and I don't think
there is any smuggling going on now.
3976. That was one of your reasons for prohibiting shops in
Burra?-Yes, it was one reason.
3977. But the effect of that prohibition is that the people have to
go to Scalloway for goods?-They can go out of the island and get
their goods where they like.
3978. Have you information at present from which you are able to
state what proportion of the Burra islanders keep accounts with
your shop in Scalloway?-Not at present. Their names may be in
the books, but they may get very small supplies from us, and they
can get supplies from other people as well.
3979. There are other shops in Scalloway?-Yes; there are several
other shops there, and the men may take some goods from us and
some from others.
3980. You say that now the oyster-beds there are really
exhausted?-Yes. Oysters were got in pretty large quantities in
Burra for a number of years, but now they are exhausted; they
were taken up in such quantities and sent away.
3981. Are there any oysters got at Scalloway?-Very few. You
can get a hundred or half a hundred occasionally.
3982. Are the men bound to deliver to your firm what oysters they
take up?-No; they have not been doing it.
3983. Then they are free to dispose of the oysters to any person
they like?-They are free to dispose of them, but there are so few
to get now that it is no object to go in for that.
3984. Have there been no disputes about oysters there?-Not that I
know of. The Scalloway people carried away a great many oysters
from Burra.
3985. You have prepared a note showing the number of families in
Burra, and also the total sums paid in cash to your fishermen at
settlement at your other stations besides Whalsay?-Yes. The
number of families in Burra is 108. There are 318 males on the
island, and 867 females-in all 685. I may mention also that
[Page 99] of the Burra men who go to the fishing, in summer in
smacks, 19 went in vessels belonging to Hay & Co., and 73, in
vessels belonging to other owners. The cash paid to fishermen at
settlement at other stations besides Whalsay was as follows
1870, Fetlar & E. Yell, . . £138 19 3
" Dunrossness . . 521 13 111/2
" North Roe . . 539 9 01/2
1871, Fetlar & E. Yell, . . 310 6 61/2
" Dunrossness . . 395 19 3
" North Roe . . 757 17 01/2
In the statement which I gave in, I stated that the arrears of
land-rent due on the Simbister estate were £57; but since the
statement was prepared, that sum has been lessened by £8,
which has been paid.
3986. Do you pay your balances to the Whalsay men by cheques
on the Union Bank?-Not altogether. To some extent we pay
them in notes and gold and silver.
3987. In 1870, you gave cheques to the amount of in sums of £5
and upwards?-Yes.
3988. Below that sum they would be paid in cash?-Yes. In the
past year I gave cheques to the amount of £465.
3989. Some of these men, I suppose, would leave their money at
the bank?-I daresay they did.
3990. Is there anything else that occurs to you to state with regard
to the fishings?-Nothing.
3991. You are now out of the trade of engaging men for the
Greenland whale fishery?-We are just about out of it.
3992. You have intimated to your correspondents in the south that
you are not to act for them any longer in that matter?-Yes.
3993. Your commission there was 21/2 per cent. upon the wages
and oil-money of each man, and that commission was paid to you
by the shipowners?-Yes.
3994. Do you consider that that was an inadequate
remuneration for the trouble you had with the men?-Yes. It was
not only an inadequate remuneration, but we were supposed to be
taking advantage of the men in settling with them, and that has led
us to give up the agency. It was thought that we did not actually
settle with them in cash, but that we gave them goods for their
wages
3995. You have added to your written statement on this subject an
abstract of your dealings for the last three years with the men
engaged in some of these whaling vessels, which shows that
during that period the average amount of wages and oil-money
paid annually to each man was £11, 13s. 6d.; the supplies given to
the man before sailing and to his family during his absence were
on an average £1, 7s. 2d-leaving a balance of £10, 6s. 4d, which
was paid in cash?-Yes. That balance was actually paid to the
men in cash, in presence of the marine superintendent, by one of
our clerks. Perhaps I may be allowed to refer to the report made
by Mr Hamilton to the Board of Trade on this subject, which was
communicated to the previous Commissioners on Truck, and
which is printed in the appendix to their report.
3996. Have you any explanation to make with regard to that
report?-The only explanation I have to make is to contradict
publicly the whole statements contained in it; and I hope the result
of your examination here will prove to the author of report, and to
others, that they should not hastily jump at conclusions, and
condemn people unheard.
3997. Do you contradict the whole of the statements in that report,
without exception?-Yes, I contradict them publicly, and I say
that, they are not in accordance with the facts.
3998. The report says: 'Almost every fisherman in the islands is in
debt to some shopkeeper:' is that incorrect?-It is not the case that
the whole fishermen in the islands are in debt.
3999. Is it not the case that the majority of the fishermen employed
by you are in debt to your shop?-It is not. In the case of Whalsay
alone, I paid £1374 to the men when I settled with them. None of
them are in debt, and they have usually large sums of money to
get.
4000. That is to say, they are not in debt in December when they
are settled with?-Yes; and during the next year, if they have
occasion to get supplies from the shop while the fishing is going
on, they get them, but they are not in debt, because they are getting
fish daily; and their account, although not settled, is running in
their favour. We would probably be in their debt if we were to
settle with them at any time during the season.
4001. But before the spring fishing begins, do they not generally
run up an amount of debt at the merchants shops?-Not generally.
I think the men generally take money to pay for anything they
want.
4002. Is it the case that cash payments at these shops are more
frequent about this season of the year, when the men have had
their settlements lately over, than they are subsequently?-I think
so, because they have money to pay for the articles they buy.
4003. Will the returns made by your shopkeepers of sales at the
shops, or the accounts kept with the fishermen, show that?-The
shopman's cash-book would show what the daily drawings were.
4004. Do you mean the daily drawings in cash?-Yes, the money.
4005. And you think the daily drawings in cash are probably larger
at this season than at other times?-I should think so, because the
people have more money in their hands.
4006. Then, if there is any truth in this statement, it must apply, in
ordinary seasons, to the period after the fishing has begun?-Yes,
it must apply to that; but the statement Mr. Hamilton makes, as to
paying seamen's wages, is utterly untrue.
4007. It is true, I suppose, that agents are employed in Lerwick to
secure the services of men for ships in the Greenland fishery?-
Yes.
4008. Then the portion of that sentence which, I presume, you
deny, is that the agents get little direct profit from their agency?-
No; they do get little direct profit-only 21/2 per cent. on the wages
and oil-money of the men.
4009. These agents are all shopkeepers, and most of them are
proprietors of land themselves, or act land agents for others: is that
so?-Yes, that is true.
4010. There are only three or four such agents in Lerwick-
yourselves, while you continued to act in that way, Mr. Leask, Mr.
Tait who has now retired, and Mr Tulloch, of A. Laurenson &
Co.?-Yes; Mr Tait has been succeeded, I believe, by Messrs.
Leisk and Sandison. There are no others that I know of.
4011. Mr. Hamilton says: 'The owners merely find the money to
pay the wages of the men engaged. The agents manage everything
else. The agents are, of course, interested in getting employment
for those who are in their debt.' Is it the case, as a rule, that the
men engaged for these Greenland voyages have been in debt?-
No. It has been so difficult for many years now to get the men
forward; that we have been very willing to take any man who
would come, without regard to what part of the country he
belonged to.
4012. But are the men so engaged frequently in debt to the
shopkeeper who engages them?-No. I think you will see that
from the copy of the letter which we wrote to one of the
shipowners.
4013. Is it not true in point of fact, as stated here, that the agents
supply the men's outfits?-We go to the custom-house with the
men after they have been engaged, and we pay them their first
month's advance in cash, and that first month's advance is repaid
us by the owners of the ship. We cannot open an account in our
books with any of these men unless we take the risk of the debt,
because the terms of their agreement are that when they come
back from their voyage, nothing is to be deducted from their wages
except that first month's advance, and their monthly note, if they
have one.
4014. But, as a matter of fact, are these men supplied with their
outfit by the agent who engages them?-The men are quite at
liberty to take their money, and get their outfit where they like.
[Page 100]
4015. Still, as a matter of fact, they are supplied with their outfit
by the agent, are they not?-No. We have supplied them to a very
small extent; the extract I have produced from our books shows
the full amount we have supplied them with, not only for their
outfit, but for their whole supplies during the season.
4016. Then, during the absence of these men do their families
come to your shop frequently for supplies?-We cannot give them
any supplies unless they have their monthly note, and if we give
them any supplies, then we credit that note. If a man leaves a
monthly note to supply his family during his absence with one-half
of his wages, then his family can get supplied to that extent.
4017. You supply them, if they wish, to the amount of that note?-
Yes, either cash or in goods. Many of the people, if they are living
in the country, take these monthly notes and hand them over to
some of their friends in the country, who transmit them to Lerwick
and get the money for them.
4018. In that case, these notes are not taken out in the shape of
goods from your shop?-No.
4019. Are you aware whether these monthly notes are ever taken
out in name of the agents?-It is very possible they may be, when
the men want that to be done.
4020. Has that occurred in your dealings with them?-I think so.
In some cases we get the monthly notes, and pay the value of them
to the families as they become due, either in money or in goods.
4021. Whether is it more frequently in money or in goods that you
have paid these notes to their families?-Some of the members of
their families come into town with the monthly notes when they
are due and they get the money.
4022. Or goods?-Or goods. If they want anything before the
monthly note is due, they get goods, but it is very seldom that that
is done. However, the result of our transactions with these men
appears from the excerpt I have produced, which shows that the
advances made did not come to 30s, while at settling we paid the
men upwards of £10 each, in cash, taking them as a whole.
4023. When that sum of £10 is paid to them, is there a standing
account against them at any of your shops?-No; the men are quite
clear. For instance, in the case of the 'Labrador' for the past year,
the men's wages and oil-money came, to £221, 7s. 4d., and we had
not an account standing against any of them in our books.
4024. Do you state that in all cases referred to in that excerpt from
your books, the sums stated as having been paid in cash were paid
in full, and that at the time when they were paid there was no
account due to your firm by the men?-Yes; there was not one
farthing due when these sums were paid.
4025. Because it might very well happen that you had an account
against them, although the cash was paid at the time in presence of
the superintendent?-I understand what you mean, but the
accounts will show that the men were all clear at the date of the
payment.
4026. Is that at the date when the final releases were signed?-No.
The final release is only signed when they get their second
payment of oil-money. The second payment of oil-money is
comparatively trifling, only a few shillings to each man; and they
have before then been paid up their whole earnings to within 10s.
or 15s. or 20s.
4027. Does the abstract account you have given in apply to the
state of things at the date of the final discharge of the men?-I
think it is taken from our books after the account of each ship was
closed, except in the case of 1871, because we had not got their
second payment of oil-money for that year, when the excerpt was
made.
4028. Are all the accounts closed for 1870?-Yes.
4029. You mean that the men have got payment of the whole of
their oil-money, including the second payment, for that year?-
Yes; and we have now got the whole of their oil-money for 1871
also.
4030. Has the final release for 1871 be signed?-I suppose so; but
I don't settle with the men personally. It is one of our clerks who
does so. The part of the report to the Board of Trade which I wish
particularly to refer to is this: 'It is true that the Board of Trade
rules provide that "the balance to be paid to the man is the balance
due on account of his voyage, deducting only such advances and
allotments, as shall have been stipulated for in the agreement; and
the value of such stores as may have been supplied to him
personally during the voyage by the master." But no time is fixed
for settlement, and the consequence is that it is the interest of the
agent to delay it until he gets the man in debt to him again; and
when he does pay to the man the balance of wages due to him
before the superintendent, the man has no option but to hand it all
back to the agent at once to whom he is indebted in an equal or
greater amount; and I need hardly point out that it is clearly most
important in the interests of the man, that he should not merely
nominally, but actually receive his wages in cash, and be able to
spend them as he likes.' That part of the report is not correct.'
4031. Is it not the case that the releases of the seamen are very
frequently signed many months after the ship has arrived and
discharged her men?-I have explained the reason for that in my
statement. The men always go home whenever the ship arrives,
and come back to settle as they find it convenient for themselves.
4032. But is it the case that it is often six or eight months
afterwards before the settlement is made?-It is the case that the
owners don't perhaps send down account of the oil that has been
boiled until this time of the year, and sometimes after this time;
but we pay the men before then nearly up to what we suppose the
amount of oil will be. Any small sum that is left out is sometimes
not paid until the ship comes out again in the following year.
4033. The time for engaging men for the Greenland voyage is in
February or March?-Yes; in the end of February or beginning of
March.
4034. And you state that in your business, as agents, there is no
account running with any of these men during the period after
the termination of the voyage, and before the last payment of
oil-money?-There is no account running with them from the
time when they settle finally until they engage again.
4035. Then, at the engagement, a new account is generally
opened for the outfit?-No; we have nothing to enter against
them when they engage again, but just the money we pay them
at the custom-house. We charge them with the month's advance
which we pay them there; that is the only entry we have against
them. In one or two cases there may be more-perhaps a few
shillings; but in the case of the 'Labrador,' which I have already
referred to, we had not a sixpence marked against any man in the
vessel.
4036. What is the main reason for taking the advance notes in
name of the shipping agents?-I suppose the men prefer it,
because it is just as convenient for them to hand the advance notes
to the shipping agents as to any other one in Lerwick.
4037. But if the advance note is taken in the name of any of the
man's friends, that would entitle them to get payment of so much
of his wages from the shipping agent?-Yes; but the advance note
must be addressed to an agent, because the owners of the ship are
here to cash it, and the agent must pay it to somebody, either to the
man's wife, or to any other one that she transfers it to.
4038. But what I asked was, whether these advance notes were
not taken payable, not to wife, but to the shipping agent,
himself?-I think not; it is either to the wife or to some of the
man's friends.
4039. I understood you to say that sometimes they were made
payable to the shipping agent?-They are payable by the shipping
agent. It is the agent who has to pay them.
4040. But you say they are never made payable to him as well as
by him, so that he has really the control over them, if they are
handed to him?-He has [Page 101] the control over them He
advances the money either to the wife or to any person that she
sends for it.
4041. But, in point of fact, they are not made payable to him as
well as by him?-They are made payable to his order.
4042. Do you say that these notes are not so taken by the shipping
agent, that he gets the benefit of them and the control over them,
and that the wife has no control over them whatever?-It is quite
possible that may be done in some cases, but I cannot say.
4043. But that has not been done in your practice?-I shall send
for one of the forms of these notes, and that will explain the matter
better to you.
4044. I understand these advance notes and allotment notes are
negotiable; at least they are indorsed by the seaman's wife as a
receipt?-I suppose when they are brought to the merchant they
are indorsed by her, and he pays the value of the note to anybody
who brings it.
4045. Can the seaman himself indorse the note beforehand?-In
many cases the seamen don't get any of these allotment notes at
all, especially on these short voyages to Greenland.
4046. But on a long voyage, does the seaman in point of fact
indorse the note?-A married man, I suppose, will take out these
advance notes to his family.
4047. And he indorses them?-I think so; but not in every case.
4048. Does he, in some cases, indorse specially to the ship's
agent?-Not to my knowledge; but I have not had that matter
through my hands lately, and I cannot speak to it with certainty.
4049. Do you not attend to that part of your business yourself?-
No; Mr. Goudie, one of our clerks does it.
4050. Then, the contradiction you have made of the statement in
the report to the Board of Trade has been made on behalf of your
firm?-Yes.
4051. You have no knowledge of the way in which other agents
in Lerwick have dealt?-No; but I believe these agents, as well
as ourselves, are very glad to get any men they can meet with to
engage for the fishing. There is sometimes great difficulty
experienced in manning the ships, and we cannot pick and choose.
4052. The commission of 21/2 per, cent. is matter of private bargain
between you and the shipowners?-Yes.
4053. So that, if that is an insufficient remuneration, it might by
private agreement be increased?-I suppose it might; but if the
owners can get people to do their work for 21/2 per cent., they will
not increase it.
4054. However, the principal thing you wish to state upon that
point is, that at the time when you engage these men for a
Greenland voyage, none of them are, in point of fact, in debt to
your firm?-None of them. That is stated in one of the letters we
wrote to one of the owners in Peterhead.
4055. There have been special regulations issued by the Board of
Trade applicable to the discharge of seamen in Orkney and
Shetland from the whalers, which are intended to allow a longer
period for signing the release?-Yes.
4056. These regulations provide-'(1.) The agreement shall be
entered into before the Superintendent of a Mercantile Marine
office, and shall show the advance of wages made, and the
allotments to be paid during the ship's absence; there shall also be
a stipulation in regard to the travelling expenses of the men on
their return home, in the event of their being taken past their own
island. (2.) The master of the ship shall keep a separate store book
for the Shetland and Orkney men, containing a distinct account for
each of the men, in which, on the ship's return, he shall show the
wages, and estimate the amount of oil and bone money, etc., to
which they are respectively entitled; the account to be signed by
himself and the seaman whom it concerns, in proof of its accuracy.
At the foot of the account he shall state his opinion of the
character of the man to enable the agent to prepare the certificate
of discharge and character. (3.) When the men are landed the
master shall deliver the book to the agent in order that the account
of wages etc., may be prepared therefrom; and the balances due
to the men shall be paid to them in the presence of the
Superintendent at the Mercantile Marine Office, to whom the store
book is to be produced by the agent. The balance to be paid to the
man is to be the balance due on account of the voyage, deducting
only such advances and allotments as shall have been stipulated
for in the agreement, and the value of such stores as may have
been, supplied to him personally during the voyage by the
master'?-It has been found to be impossible to comply with that
regulation about settling with the men when they are landed,
because the moment they are landed they hurry to their homes, and
only come back to Lerwick to settle as they find it convenient for
themselves.
4057. And in point of fact the settlement is delayed for weeks?-
Yes, for weeks, and sometimes for months.
4058. Are the balances contained in the statement you have
produced the balances referred to in the regulation I have read?-
They are the actual cash balances due to the men, and the actual
amount paid to the men in cash.
4059. The deductions in the second column are supplies made by
you in goods?-Yes.
4060. Is it not an infringement of the Merchant Shipping Act of
1864, to supply goods even to that limited extent?-These supplies
may have been made on monthly notes; and there is nothing in the
Merchant Shipping Act to prevent us from giving credit to men
going to Greenland the same as to any person at home, provided
they come back and pay us. We know them, and could trust them
to come back; but I don't think that, in any case, we have given
them any credit.
4061. If you did not give them credit, how did you find it
necessary to deduct these supplies?-In that case the supplies may
have been given under monthly allotment notes.
4062. What you mean is that the £1, 7s. 2d. which you state as the
average of the deductions may have been paid either in cash or in
goods?-Yes. I think I have explained that in the paper I have
given in.
4063. You say in one of the letters you have quoted, that 'the
supplies mentioned in the account consist mostly of meal, given to
the men's families to account of their half pay notes, and on which
the profits cannot pay cellar rents and servants' wages'?-When a
half-pay note not due until the end of the month, and the wife
sends in and wants some meal in the meantime, she gets the meal,
and we deduct it from the half-pay notes when we pay them.
4064. Then the half-pay notes are not generally paid cash?-They
are generally paid in cash, but before they are due we give them
goods to account.
4065. Am I to understand that these notes are paid mostly in meal
or mostly in cash?-They are paid partly in meal, and rest is paid
in money when the notes are due. If a woman has 20s. of a half
pay note, she gets perhaps 5s. in meal, and then she gets the rest of
the money in full when it is due. The second column in the
abstract I have produced, shows the actual goods advanced, and
the actual money.
4066. Have you now got one of the forms of the advance note?-
Yes [produces it]; that form is addressed to us.
4067. That is to say, you are to pay it?-Yes; and the woman,
when she gets the money, signs her name on the back of the note.
4068. Is it not the case sometimes that in the lines issued to
Lerwick seamen the order is to pay is in favour of the ship's agent
himself?-Not that I know of.
4069. Has there been no indorsation by the seaman or his wife, in
any case that you are aware of which was equivalent to an order to
pay to the ship's agent himself?-That could only have had the
effect of reserving the agent's claim against the shipowner.
4070. No, it would enable him to retain the money which he would
be bound to pay at settlement or at the end of the month when the
allotment note became due to the wife or sister, or other relation
[Page 102] of the seaman. Have you known any case of that
kind?-There may have been such cases, but I have not been
aware of them.
4071. The third article of these regulations by the Board of Trade
goes on to say-'The superintendent is not to allow any deduction
to be made in their account for stores supplied by the agent or by
tradesmen to the seaman's family during the seaman's absence,
nor is he to permit the insertion in the account of deductions for
any transactions in money or goods that may have taken place
before the commencement of the voyage.' I suppose that refers to
the form of note now shown to me?-Yes. In fact he is not to
allow anything to go into the settlement, except what is provided
for in the agreement.
4072. Are these supplies, which are stated in the note, not an
infringement of that rule of the Board of Trade?-No. As I
mentioned already, I suppose the greater part of these supplies
have been made on allotment notes.
4073. But although made on the allotment notes, yet they are
supplies made by the agent to the seaman's family, and they are
deducted from his wages at the end?-Yes; but these allotment
notes are provided for to be included in the settlement with the
seaman when he returns. They are made a legal claim against his
wages.
4074. Does the rule not imply that the allotment notes are to he
paid in money?-The man's family can get them either in money
or in goods, as they choose. The woman may perhaps not wait
until the end of the month to receive her £1, 2s. 6d. she may want
a part of it in the early part of the month, or in the middle of the
month; and she comes and gets either money or goods, as she
chooses; and then at the end of the month she gets the balance.
4075. When she gets the goods in the middle of the month, she
gets them on credit?-Yes; and she pays for them out of the £1, 2s.
6d. when she gets her allotment note settled; but I think that has
occurred only to a very small extent. I think there are very few of
the seamen who take these allotment notes at all. The young men
don't require to take them; it is only the married men who require
them.
4076. If it is the case that very few take them, then the whole of
these supplies are not on allotment notes?-I think a good many of
them have been given on allotment notes.
4077. But so far as they were not on allotment notes, in what way
were the supplies furnished? Has it been upon accounts opened
with the men for their outfit before starting?-I think that has very
seldom been the case. They may occasionally get a few shillings
worth when they go out; but we take care to give as little credit in
that way as possible.
4078. Were the deductions you have stated here [showing] allowed
by the superintendent in settling with these seamen?-No. These
deductions, as I have said already, are in the form of allotment
notes.
4079. But you have told me that only some of them were in
the form of allotment notes; in what way were the rest of the
deductions made?-The superintendent does not allow any
deductions, unless what are specially mentioned in the agreements.
If these men got a few shillings of advance before they went away,
it is possible that may have been included, they come back and pay
it after the settlement at the custom-house.
4080. Then, this total of £10, 6s. 4d. [showing] paid in cash does
not show the amount that was actually handed over in presence of
the superintendent?-I think it does, or near about it.
4081. But not altogether to a penny?-Perhaps not so near as that,
but I took the book and went over it carefully, and picked out all
the cash the men had got, and all the goods, and separated them.
4082. In settling with the men before the superintendent, you are
entitled to deduct the amount of allotment notes issued is that
so?-Yes; and the first month's advance, and any advances the
men may have had on board the vessel during the voyage.
4083. Does the £270, 1s., 7d., mentioned in your abstract of
accounts, represent the whole of the deductions that were so
allowed by the superintendent?-Perhaps not exactly the whole; I
shall send for the book, and it will explain it better.
4084. There may have been something due for supplies furnished
in addition to what was allowed by the superintendent, and for
which the seaman settled with you after receiving his cash?-
Perhaps that may have been so, but I have not been in the habit of
settling with the men myself.
4085. Perhaps your clerk, who settled with the men, can explain
it better, as he has been in the way of carrying through the
transactions?-Yes.
4086. But what I understand you to say is, that you cannot state
that sum of £1, 7s. 2d. represents the whole amount of advances
which on an average each received from you?-The only thing I
can state just now is, that out of an average of £11, 13s. 6d., which
each man was entitled to receive each year over a period of three
years, we only paid them £1, 7s. 2d. in goods
4087. But you cannot state that that £1, 7s. 2d. all fell under the
category of deductions allowed by the regulations of the Board of
Trade?-No; not unless I were to go over every man's account,
and pick out what had been given to him under allotment notes.
4088. And you cannot state that the sum of £10, 6s. 4d. was the
sum which actually passed in cash at the settlement before the
superintendent?-It is the actual sum which passed into the men's
hands in cash.
4089. Do you say that there was not a larger sum than that which
passed between the men and your clerk before the superintendent
at settlement, part of which was returned to you afterwards, in
payment for supplies?-I don't know about that, because I have
not been in the habit of going up to the custom-house with the
men; but I went over the books myself, and I found that £10, 6s.
4d. was the amount in cash which the men got out of the sum of
£11, 13s. 6d., in whatever way it was paid to them.
4090. You cannot say whether it was paid before the
superintendent or not?-No; I cannot say.
4091. Is there anything else you wish to state?-No; I think
everything has been referred to.
Lerwick, January 8, 1872, JANET EXTER, examined.
4092. Where do you live?-At Satter, in Sandwick parish.
4093. Are you in the habit of knitting?-Yes.
4094. For whom?-For Mr. Robert Linklater. I knitted for him
first.
4095. Does he supply you with wool?-He gives us worsted to
knit.
4096. You don't knit with your own worsted?-No.
4097. What do you knit?-Mostly veils.
4098. How often you come to Lerwick with them?-Generally at
the end of every month.
4099. Do you keep an account with Mr. Linklater?-We get no
lines, and I have not a pass-book.
4100. Why have you not a pass-book?-Because he thought there
was no use giving us a pass-book when he marked all the things
down in his own book, and he would not give it.
4101. When you go to him with your veils, how are you paid?-
Very poorly. We just get 8d. for a veil.
4102. How is that paid to you-in money or goods?-In goods. I
have asked for a payment in money, but he would not give any.
He gives us tea for 9d. and 10d. a quarter.
4103. Would you give your veils for less if you could get money
for them?-Yes, for a little less.
4104. For how much less?-Not much.
4105. Are you not as well off getting the goods as you got
money?-No; I would be better off with the money.
4106. Why? Do you not want to buy the articles [Page 103] which
Mr. Linklater sells to you?-No. Sometimes we need a little meal.
4107. Have you no other means of getting meal than from your
knitting?-No.
4108. Do you not work out of doors?-We work in the field and in
the turnips.
4109. But it is yourself I am speaking of. Do you live with your
father and mother?-Yes.
4110. Have they got a bit of ground?-Very little; a peerie (small)
bit.
4111. But you think you would be better with money, and you
want to buy meal with it?-Yes, I want to buy some meal. I
dropped knitting to Mr. Linklater and went to Mr. Sinclair. I asked
a little money from him, and I got 2s. or 3s. So far as I saw, there
was more justice in him than in Mr. Linklater.
4112. If you were only paid for your knitting in dresses and goods
of that sort, what did you do when you wanted to buy meal?-We
had to take the goods home, and give the cotton and tea for the
meal we wanted.
4113. To whom did you give the cotton and tea?-Just to any
person who would give us meal for them.
4114. Is there a shop in your neighbourhood?-Yes.
4115. Have you given goods there in exchange for meal?-Yes,
sometimes.
4116. Does the shopkeeper there take your goods from you in that
way, in exchange for any articles you want?-Yes, sometimes,
when we require anything.
4117. What is his name?-Mr. Gavin Henderson, at Ness,
Sandwick.
4118. Is it a common thing for Mr. Henderson to take goods from
you?-No.
4119. He generally wants to be paid in money?-Yes.
4120. Is that the only thing you have done with the goods except
using them yourself?-No. When I met any person that I could get
a little meal from in exchange for them, I have given them for that.
4121. Have you ever given away your goods to any other person
than Mr. Henderson for money or meal?-Not very often.
4122. Have you ever done it?-Yes.
4123. To whom have you given them?-Just to any person
thereabout.
4124. You have given them to any neighbour who wanted the
goods, and happened to have meal?-Yes.
4125. When was that?-It was about two or three years back.
4126. You have not done it for the last two or three years?-No.
4127. How was that? Have you been better off?-Yes, a little; but
not much.
4128. You have been getting some money from Mr. Sinclair
during the last two or three years?-Yes; a shilling now and then.
4129. And that would help you?-Yes, it helped a little.
4130. How much do you get in a month for your knitting?-I will
get a shilling and a sixpence at a time.
4131. But what is the value of your knitting? What are your
earnings in a month?-I will make about eight or nine veils in a
month; and when they are made of the finest worsted I get 16d. for
them.
4132. Then you will be earning 12s. or 13s. in a month?-Yes.
4133. And you will get a shilling of that in cash now and then?-
Yes.
4134. Do you spend the rest in dress?-Yes, and cotton.
4135. How much of that will you give away in the course of a year
for meal and money?-I could not say.
4136. You will get about £6 or £7 worth of dress in the course of a
year: do you require all that for your own use?-No, I don't
require it all.
4137. You give some of it to the rest of your family?-Yes.
4138. Is that all you have got to say?-Yes.
Lerwick, January 8, 1872, JANE SANDISON; examined.
4139. You have come in from Sandwick parish to give some
evidence about the way in which you are paid for your hosiery?-
Yes.
4140. Do you knit for any person in town?-Yes; have knitted for
Mr. Robert Linklater for four years.
4141. Do you knit with his wool?-Yes.
4142. And are you paid in goods?-Yes.
4143. Do you ever get money?-No.
4144. Have you ever asked for it?-I asked for it one time, and he
said he expected money from me, and not I from him.
4145. That was for goods you were to get?-Yes.
4146. But you gave him hosiery instead of money, and you got his
goods?-Yes.
4147. Have you ever disposed of any of the goods you got in that
way, in order to provide yourself with provisions or to pay rent?-
Yes.
4148. To whom have you sold them?-I have sold them to several
persons for oil to see to knit.
4149. Do you burn oil in your lamps?-Yes.
4150. To whom did you sell them for oil?-To several persons.
4151. To neighbours?-Yes.
4152. Tell me anything you gave away in that way?-I have given
tea.
4153. How much?-Sometimes two ounces for bottle of oil.
4154. When did you do that last?-Last year.
4155. Did you do it often?-Three times.
4156. Did you ever give away your goods for anything else?-
Sometimes we gave them away for wool to make into worsted.
4157. Who did you buy wool from?-From any one that I could
get it from.
4158. Give me the names of some of the people from whom you
got oil and worsted in exchange for your goods?-I gave some tea
to Mitchell Sandison for wool.
4159. Did you ever sell any of your soft goods in that way?-No.
4160. It was always tea?-Yes.
4161. Is it a common thing among the knitters in your quarter to
give away tea for anything you want?-Yes; for anything we can
get for it.
4162. Did you ever pay for meal with it?-No.
4163. Did you ever pay your rent with it?-No.
4164. Did you ever get money for tea?-No.
4165. It was just oil and wool that you got in exchange for it?-
Yes.
Lerwick, January 8, 1872, JANE HALCROW, examined.
4166. You come from Sandwick parish?-Yes; from North
Channerwick.
4167. Do you knit for Mr. Robert Linklater with his wool?-Yes.
4168. Are you paid in goods?-Yes,
4169. Did you ever ask for money?-Yes, once.
4170. Did you get it?-No.
4171. What did you want the money for?-I wanted it for several
purposes. We might perhaps require to pay for our board if we
were staying a night or two in town; and that was the purpose I
wanted it for at that time.
4172. Did you want any of it for provisions to take home?-Yes.
[Page 104]
4173. Are you not content to get the goods you want in return for
your hosiery?-We are not very well content sometimes.
4174. Why?-Because if we were getting the money, we might
make more of it in some other shops.
4175. Did you ever get the money to make more of it?-We never
got money from Mr. Linklater.
4176. But did you ever go to Lerwick with money in your pocket,
and make more of it than when you came with hosiery?-Yes,
often.
4177. What money was that? Had you earned it by working at
other things than knitting?-Yes.
4178. How did you make more of it than you would have done by
spending it in the hosiery shop?-I went to other shops where
there were better articles.
4179. Where did you go?-Sometimes to Mr. George Tait's.
4180. Does he not buy hosiery?-No, he never buys hosiery.
4181. Where else did you go to?-To Mr. Thomas Nicholson.
4182. But he buys hosiery?-Sometimes; if it is very good.
4183. Tell me anything you bought at Mr. Tait's or Mr.
Nicholson's which was cheaper than you would have got it for at
the shops where you sold your hosiery?-It was only trifling things
we bought out of their shops, because we never had money to buy
things of great value from them.
4184. What were some of these trifling things?-Perhaps we were
requiring neckties, or ribbons, or flowers; we might get them from
them, but we scarcely ever went there to buy anything like dresses.
I remember once buying a dress at Mr. George Tait's and I got a
splendid bargain of it for money.
4185. Did you get it any cheaper than you would have got it from
the shops where they buy hosiery?-Yes; he reduced the price
because it was to be paid money.
4186. If you had offered money in Mr. Linklater's or Mr. Sinclair's
shops; would you not have got the dress as cheap there?-I don't
think it.
4187. Have you any reason to know that you would not?-Yes, I
have reason to know that, because if we were buying anything out
of their shops we would not get any reduction on the price
4188. Even although you were offering money?-Yes.
4189. Have you gone there with money?-Yes, I have gone with
money, but very little. I scarcely ever go to their shops with
money if I have it.
4190. Have you ever exchanged any of the goods that you got for
your knitting?-No, I have never done that.
4191. You have always wanted them for your own use, or for the
use of your family?-Yes.
4192. Have you taken goods from other people which they had got
in exchange for their hosiery?-No.
4193. Have you known anybody who did so?-No; I cannot say
any person who has done it.
4194. Is that all you came here to say?-I think a very proper thing
would be that we should have a little money, if not the whole, for
our knitting. It would be a good thing if we could get even the half
of it in money.
4195. Did you ever try to get one-half in money?-I only asked for
money once-it was a very trifling sum, only 6d.-and I was
refused it.
4196. Was that when you had sold your knitting to Mr.
Linklater?-No; I was knitting to him at that time with his own
worsted.
4197. Did you ever sell anything that you had knitted with your
own worsted?-Sometimes I would sell a little.
4198. Were you always paid in goods in the same way?-Yes,
always in goods.
4199. Did you ever try to get payment of it in money?-No;
because they always said they never gave money; so there was no
use asking.
Mrs AGNES MALCOMSON or JOHNSTONE, examined.
4200. Do you live with your husband at Victoria Wharf,
Lerwick?-Yes.
4201. Do you sometimes knit?-I do. I generally knit for myself
and sell what I have made.
4202. To whom do you sell it?-I cannot mention any one of the
merchants that I have sold to more than another. I sell it to any
one.
4203. Do you sometimes sell to strangers?-I don't do much in
that way.
4204. It is to the merchants in Lerwick that you sell principally?-
Yes.
4205. And you get payment for your knitting by taking goods in
the usual way?-Yes.
4206. Do you sometimes get a little money?-No, I never get any
money.
4207. Have you asked for money, and been refused?-Yes, I have
asked for money to pay for the dressing of shawls. It is generally
half shawls that I knit.
4208. Have you not been able to get money when you asked for
it?-I once got 6d. for that purpose, or rather it was thrown at me.
4209. What do you mean by that?-I mean that it was given in that
sort of way.
4210. Would you rather be paid in money than in goods for your
knitting?-Yes, much rather.
4211. If you could get money, would you be content to take a
rather lower price for your work?-I would indeed.
4212. What is the price of the half shawls you knit?-They vary in
price according to the quality of them.
4213. What is the ordinary price you get?-I have got 28s. for a
half shawl, and I have got from that down to as low as 12s.
4214. Suppose you were selling a shawl for 16s. in goods, would
you be content to take 14s. if you were paid for it in cash?-Yes, I
would be quite content to do with that.
4215. Why?-Because I would be able to make more of the 14s. in
cash than of the 16s. in goods.
4216. How would you do that?-I would go to the ready money
shops, as we call them; and I would do as much with my 14s. in
cash as I would do with my 16s. in goods.
4217. Where would you go in Lerwick to make as much of 14s. in
cash as the 16s. worth of goods which you would get in one of the
other shops?-I don't like to mention the names of these shops
publicly, but I will give them privately. [Witness gives the names
of two shops.]
4218. Are there more shops than one where you could do that?-
Yes; there is one shop especially, but there are others also where I
could make as much of 14s. as I could of 16s. in goods.
4219. Have you tried that often?-Not very often, because I have
not had it in my power; but when I could do it I tried it.
4220. Have you sometimes, when you had ready money, gone to
such a shop as Messrs. Hay & Co.'s?- Not very often.
4221. Have you ever gone there?-Long ago, when I was young, I
went there very often, but I have not gone for many years.
4222. Then you cannot tell whether you could make more of your
14s. at a shop like that, than you could at Mr Linklater's or Mr
Sinclair's?-I think I would make more in Messrs. Hay's if I had
the cash than I would in Mr. Linklater's.
4223. Would you often find it convenient to have the money with
which to buy provisions?-Yes, a person like me who has a family
would often find it to be convenient. Those of us who have our
husbands earnings to live upon are not limited to that; but I have to
find the most part of the clothing out of my knitting, or out of my
other industry.
4224. Do you employ your time in other ways as well as in
knitting?-Yes. I keep a lodger occasionally. I have two or three
children at school, and a [Page 105] baby at home to attend to,
besides sometimes one, and sometimes two lodgers.
4225. And it would be handy for you to have the money with
which to pay school fees?-Yes.
4226. Have you ever been obliged to exchange the goods you got
for money for other things you were more in want of?-No; I have
never been so hard pushed as that, but I know some people who
have.
4227. Were these acquaintances of your own?-Yes; I know them
quite well.
4228. Have you ever taken goods from them, and given them
money or provisions in exchange?-Yes; I have given a few
groceries occasionally, but very few. I have also bought groceries
from a knitter, such as tea, which they had taken out in exchange
for their work.
4229. How did you pay for that? Did you give the woman money
for it?-Yes, I gave her money to help her through for a time.
4230. What was she to do with the money?-That was no business
of mine; I don't know.
4231. Did she not tell you what she was to do with it?-No; she
did not say, and I did not ask.
4232. Did she come and ask you to take the tea off her hands?-
Yes.
4233. Who was that?-I will give the name privately. There was
more than one of them. [Witness gives two names.]
4234. Then you think it would be better for the knitters that they
should be paid in cash?-Yes, it would be better for all the
Lerwick knitters especially.
4235. Why for the Lerwick knitters especially?-Because they are
most dependent upon their knitting, especially in the winter
season.
Lerwick, January 8, 1872, ROBERT MOUAT, examined.
4236. You are a blacksmith at Olnafirth Voe?-Yes.
4237. You get the principal part of your work from Messrs. Adie,
and the fishermen and tenants in that district?-Yes.
4238. In dealing with Messrs. Adie, do you run an account with
them?-No; I generally pay in cash for what I get in the shop.
4239. Are you aware whether the prices that you pay in cash are
the same as are paid by the fishermen in the neighbourhood?-I
am not quite sure about that, but I suppose so.
4240. Can you tell me the prices of any of the articles which you
get from their shop? For instance, what do you pay for meal?-
The meal that Messrs. Adie sell now is 1s. 5d. per peck, whereas I
can get the same meal in Lerwick for 1s. 2d. now. Five months
ago, when I lived in Lerwick, I could get it for 1s. 3d.
4241. What do you pay for tea?-There are three kinds of tea; we
pay about 3s. 4d. per pound for one kind, about 4s. for another,
and I think 3s. is about the lowest.
4242. Is there any other article that you get in any quantity in
Messrs. Adie's shop?-I think these are the principal articles we
get there.
4243. Do you deal for soft goods there?-A little.
4244. For boots?-No; I have not gone there for boots.
4245. What kind of soft goods do you get?-Winceys and cottons.
4246. Can you tell the prices which are charged for these things,
compared with what you would get them for in Lerwick?-No.
4247. Is it commonly supposed that there is more than one price
for goods at that shop? Have you heard the fishermen who settle
up only once a year, complain that you get your goods cheaper
than they did?-I have not heard them say so. It is not long since I
went to that place, and I am not very well acquainted with the
fishermen there yet.
4248. Where were you before?-I was born in Northmavine, and I
was connected with the fishing there.
4249. How long is it since you ceased to fish there?-About
fifteen years ago. After leaving Northmavine I came to Lerwick.
4250. Do the fishermen at Voe run an account at the store, which
is settled at the end of the fishing season?-I think so.
4251. What reason have you for supposing that? Have they told
you so?-They have not told me, but I have been aware of such
cases since I went there.
4252. Does that mode of settlement affect you in your trade?-It
affects me in this way, that I get a little more custom from the
fishermen about the time when they settle, than I do during the rest
of the year.
4253. Is that because they have money to pay you with?-Yes.
4254. Do you not give them credit in the rest of the year if they
have work to do?-I give them some credit; but I have only been
five months there.
<Adjourned>.
Lerwick: Tuesday, January 9, 1872.
<Present>-Mr. Guthrie.
WILLIAM GOUDIE, examined.
4255. You are a fisherman at Toab, in Dunrossness, on the
property of Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh?-I am.
4256. Are you under any obligation, by the terms on which you
hold your land, to fish for any particular fish merchant?-Yes; we
are under an obligation to fish for Mr. Bruce, younger of
Sumburgh.
4257. Is that obligation part of a verbal contract or lease which you
have with him?-It is generally known that we must not break that
rule.
4258. You have no leases on the Sumburgh estate?-No; but we
had an offer of a lease. The offer I had is here. [Produces paper.]
4259. The document you hand in is a printed copy of 'Rules for
the better management of the Sumburgh estate?'-Yes.
4260. When did you get it?-Last year, at settlement, so far as I
remember. That would be in the spring of 1871.
4261. When is your settling time?-There is not always one
settling time. Some years it is later, and some years earlier.
4262. Have you settled this year yet?-No.
4263. Was anything said to you about that paper when it was
handed to you?-No; it was just handed over to me in Mr. Bruce's
office.
4264. Have you signed any copy of these rules?-No.
4265. You have not accepted them as binding upon you?-No.
4266. Do you prefer to continue to hold your land year by year?-
No; we should like a lease.
4267. Have you any objection to these rules?-We [Page 106]
thought they were not altogether so much on our side of the leaf,
as we say, as we should like.
4268. You are not going to accept them?-I don't believe we
shall.
4269. But under your present tenure, as you hold your land at
present, you say you are bound to deliver all your fish to young
Mr. Bruce?-Yes; the fresh fish.
4270. In what way are you so bound? Did you agree to any
obligation of that kind?-No; but before I became a tenant, the
rule had been issued that all his tenants had to give their fish to
him in a fresh state.
4271. When did you become a tenant?-About five or six years
ago; and the rule was in force before I came. I have broken the
rule very little so that I have not been called in question.
4272. But you took your land knowing that that was a condition of
your having it?-Yes.
4273. Have you had to pay any fines for delivering any of your fish
to other parties?-No, I have paid none.
4274. Do you understand that such fines are to be levied if you fail
to deliver your fish to Mr. Bruce?-I have not heard of any fines;
but it has been reported that the tenants would be warned if they
did so. I have heard that reported publicly: that they would be
warned, or might be warned, on that account.
4275. Did you agree, when taking your lease that you would be
liable to pay a fine if you delivered your fish to any other
merchant?-No, I was never called upon to agree to that; but it
was generally known that we had to give all our fish to him, fresh.
4276. Who told you that you were to give your fish to him?-That
was known publicly all over the district before I became a tenant.
I understood from my father and brothers and neighbours that they
had had to do that, and I became a tenant on the same terms.
4277. Were your father and brothers tenants on the Sumburgh
estate before you?-Yes; before I had land from Mr. Bruce.
4278. Before you took the land, were you living on the estate?-I
had lived on the estate, for twenty-five years. I was born and
brought up on it; then I was absent for eleven years, and then I
came back to it. It was during the time I was absent that this rule
came into force.
4279. Is there any obligation upon the tenants there to dispose of
their cattle or other produce to any particular person?-Not so far
as I know.
4280. There is no obligation upon them at all, except as to fish?-
Not so far as I know.
4281. How are you paid for your fish?-We are paid so much per
hundredweight of fresh fish, just as the price may be yearly. It is
not always the same price.
4282. But there is one price for the whole fish of the year?-Yes,
for the same kind of fish. There is one price for ling, and one
price for saith.
4283. That price is fixed when?-Nearly the time when we settle.
We don't know exactly what price we are to get until about that
time.
4284. When is that?-It is not always in one month of the year. It
has sometimes been as late as March before we settled for the fish
we had caught in the previous spring. Sometimes it may have
been a month earlier.
4285. Has it ever been earlier than February?-Not so far as I
remember.
4286. When were the last of the fish delivered that were settled for
at one of these settlements?-Last year, so far as I know, Mr.
Bruce settled up for all the fish that had been weighed to him up to
the time of the settlement,; at least, most of it was settled for then.
4287. That includes the small fish you catch in winter?-Yes.
4288. Are you bound to deliver them to him, the same as the large
fish you get in summer?-Yes.
4289. Then it is both the haaf fishing you are speaking of just now
and the small fishing in winter?-Yes. All the fish we catch
where I live are ling, cod, tusk, and saith.
4290. But the fishing that you go to in summer is what you call the
haaf fishing, or the summer fishing?-Yes; in a sense it is the haaf
fishing, though the saith fishing is with us properly the haaf
fishing. Some go farther off in bigger boats and with longer lines,
and fish for ling and cod; while there are others, in smaller boats
and nearer the shore, pursuing the saith fishing. That is the only
difference between the kinds of fishing with us.
4291. But the obligation and the settlement for the price of the fish
that you have been speaking of applies to both the haaf fishing and
the fishing in the smaller boats near the shore?-It applies to all
the fishing.
4292. There is no Faroe fishing there?-Some of the men go to it.
4293. But Mr. Bruce does not fit out boats for the Faroe fishing?-
Not so far as I know.
4294. And you are under no obligation to him with regard to it?-
No.
4295. You say you don't know of any case of fines being imposed
for delivering fish to other merchants?-There is no case of that
kind that I remember of.
4296. Do you know of any increase of rent being imposed upon
that estate in consequence of liberty being given to fish for other
merchants?-No. There was liberty asked and granted at one
time, before most of those who are here were able to fish. That
was under old Mr. Bruce.
4297. How long ago was that?-I don't remember the time. It was
when I was a boy. Some of the other witnesses may know about it.
4298. Are you under any obligation to buy your goods from Mr.
Bruce's shop?-Not strictly speaking.
4299. What do you mean by 'not strictly speaking?'-In one sense
we are not bound, yet in another sense we are bound. There is no
rule issued out that we must purchase our goods from there; but as
we fish for Mr. Bruce, and have no ready money, we can hardly
expect to run accounts with those who have no profit from us.
That confines many of us to purchase our goods from his shop.
4300. Are there other stores in the neighbourhood from which you
could get your supplies as good and as cheap?-Yes. Messrs. Hay
& Co. have a store near us. Some things might not be equally
good, but there are other things there which are as good and as
cheap.
4301. What other stores are there in your neighbourhood?-There
is no store exactly near us until we come to Mr. Gavin
Henderson's.
4302. How far is his shop from your place?-It is above a mile.
4303. Is Messrs. Hay's within a mile?-Yes, it is less than that.
4304. Are there fishermen in the neighbourhood of Mr.
Henderson's shop, and living on Mr. Bruce's estate?-Mr.
Henderson's shop is not on Mr. Bruce's property.
4305. Has he no fishermen living beyond Henderson's shop?-
There are some nearly as far north on the east side, but not so far
north on the west side. Mr. Bruce's property extends a little
farther north on the east side than on the west side of the island,
and Mr. Henderson's place is on the west side.
4306. You live on the west side of Dunrossness?-Yes, rather; but
we are on the south point, so it does not much matter.
4307. But are fishermen who live nearer to Mr. Henderson's store
virtually bound, in the same way as you are to deal at Mr. Bruce's
store?-The whole of Mr. Bruce's tenants are on equal terms,-all
in equal bondage.
4308. But are there men for whom it would be more convenient to
deal at Henderson's store, as they live nearer to it?-Yes.
4309. Are they in the habit of dealing at Mr. Bruce's store for the
reasons you have stated?-So far as I know, they are.
4310. The same reason of a want of credit elsewhere, [Page 107]
would apply to them as to you, and compel them to go to Mr.
Bruce's store?-I don't say that they don't have credit; but we
cannot expect to run a heavy account with a man who has no profit
from us, when we are uncertain whether we will be able to clear
that account or not. Therefore, as a rule, we do not run heavy
accounts for such things as meal, for instance, when our crops are
a failure, with any man except Mr. Bruce.
4311. That would be just as true of a man who was two miles
nearer to Henderson's store than to Mr. Bruce's?-Yes.
4312. And for that reason he may find it necessary, and probably
does find it necessary, to go to Mr. Bruce's store, and pass
Henderson's, although it is much nearer?-Yes, he has that to do.
4313. Are you satisfied with the quality and the price of the
articles which are sold at Mr. Bruce's store?-With the qualities
we have no reason to grumble; with the prices we do.
4314. Is that a general feeling in the district?-It is over all, so far
as I know.
4315. Have you compared the prices of any particular articles at
that store with what you could get them for elsewhere?-I have
compared some of them,-not many. For instance, I have tried to
compare meal, to see what I lost by having it from Mr. Bruce's
shop instead of from other places.
4316. What conclusion did you come to with regard to that?-I
concluded in my own mind that the difference was not below 3s.
on the boll of meal. It might be more, but I don't think it was less,
in this way, that we have our meal weighed to us, not always, but
generally, as 112 lbs. to the quarter boll.
4317. Of which store are you now speaking?-The store at
Grutness, on Mr. Bruce's property. The meal is weighed at 32 lbs.
to the lispund or quarter boll. Mr. Irvine, the storekeeper, told me
there was a difference made when the lispunds and half-lispunds
and pecks were summed up. I asked him whether there was a
difference in the price between that and 35 lbs. to the quarter boll,
and he said there was a difference; but I never knew what it was.
4318. Are you speaking just now of a difference in weight?-
There is a difference in weight, besides the difference in price. He
said he made a difference in the price on account of the short
weight, but I never knew what that difference was.
4319. In what quantities do you buy your meal at Grutness
store?-Sometimes in a boll, and sometimes in half a boll. Many
of the men seldom get a boll, but take their meal in quarter bolls,
and sometimes in an eighth of a boll, that is a peck, or 8 lbs.
4320. Is the boll you are speaking of the same as the boll by which
you would buy in Lerwick, or at Hay's or at Henderson's shop?-
When we get a boll unseparated, as it comes home, it is just the
same, so far as I know; but when it is weighed out, 32 lbs. to
the quarter boll, we are always under the impression that we lose
on weight.
4321. How is that?-I cannot tell how it is.
4322. Why should there be a loss on weight if the meal is weighed
out to you?-It is 32 lbs. to the quarter boll there, while in other
places it is 35 lbs.
4323. Where is it 35 lbs?-In Lerwick, and, so far as I know, in
Messrs. Hay's, at Dunrossness.
4324. Is the statement you are making just now, that you
understand you get only 32 lbs. to the quarter boll at Grutness,
while at other places you would get 35 lbs. to the quarter boll?-
Yes, I make that statement; but I also say that Mr. Irvine said there
was a little difference made in the price for that. He said, that
when it was summed up, so many lispunds being put into the boll,
there was a difference made on the price to cover the difference
between 32 and 35 lbs. to the quarter boll; but I never knew what
that difference was.
4325. What is the price charged at Grutness for quarter boll of 32
lbs. of meal?-It is not always one price.
4326. What is it just now?-I don't know. I only had one boll last
year, and he could not tell me the price of it. I never knew the
price of his meal until a neighbour who settled with him before me
came back; and then I tried to enter the price of my meal
according to what that neighbour said he had paid for it at
settlement.
4327. Then, in point of fact, you don't know anything about the
price of meal there?-He tells us the price of it when we settle.
4328. But you have had no settlement this year yet?-No.
4329. Had you a settlement last year, in the course of which you
became acquainted with the price of meal?-Yes.
4330. Was it charged at the same rate throughout the year previous
to your last settlement?-Yes; one year's meal is always one price.
4331. Is there never a variation in the price of meal during the year
to which the settlement applies?-Not so far as I have known.
4332. Can you tell the price at which you settled for your meal at
last settlement?-I don't remember exactly, but there are men
present who can tell that.
4333. Have you got any account of your last settlement?-I have
an account, but, not knowing that it would be called for or
required, it slipped past me.
4334. Were you not cited to bring all accounts, receipts, and
pass-books?-Yes. I made a careful search for that account, but
I could not find it. I have some accounts here, but I could never
keep an exact account of how I stood with the shop, because I
did not know the prices of the goods until the time came for
settlement, or until I heard the prices from a neighbour who had
been settled with. I then tried to enter the value of my goods, and
to post up my account, before I appeared at the settlement; but
when an unlearned man like me posts up his account in that way,
he has but a poor chance.
4335. But don't you get an account of your dealings at the shop at
the time when you are settled with?-We don't get a copy of our
shop account.
4336. Do none of the men get a copy of their account at that
time?-I cannot speak for others.
4337. Have you never had a pass-book?-No.
4338. Have you never asked for one?-Not so far as I remember.
4339. Then you have perfect reliance on the honesty of those who
act for Mr. Bruce in his shop?-Not exactly. I mark down the
articles myself which I receive, and I have compared that account
with Mr. Bruce to see if the same articles were in his account
when we settled. I could not until then, or until I had heard from a
neighbour a day or two before what he had paid, enter the value of
my articles; but I have compared the articles themselves with him,
and found the accounts run pretty straight.
4340. You have some accounts relating to previous years with
you? Let me see one of them as a specimen?-[Produces small
note-book]
4341. Is this account made up by yourself?-It is account kept for
my own satisfaction, to let me know whether there has been
anything marked against me which I have not had.
4342. This is only a memorandum: was it taken at the time when
the goods were got, or was it written up from memory?-When I
came home from his shop to my own house, after I had received
the goods, I marked them down. I had not the book with me when
I received the goods from him; but I generally mark my account
after I come home, or a little time after I get to my own house. But
I do not receive any copy of an account from him of his own
handiwork.
4343. Then that memorandum is merely a private note of your
own, made as you got the articles?-Yes.
4344. It does not contain the prices?-No; I did not know the
prices when I made those entries. I put the prices against some of
them when I settled, and some of them by learning the prices from
neighbours when they settled, while for some articles they told me
the prices when I got them.
4345. Did you find that the quantities marked in [Page 108] your
private memorandum were the same as those charged against you
at the shop?-Pretty nearly. There was no difference worth
mentioning.
4346. What opportunity had you of comparing them? Was the
account at the shop read over to you, or did you read it yourself?-
I read over what I had marked down, and he saw if it was the same
as what he had. When I come in to settle, Mr. Irvine asks me,
'Have you an account, William?'-I say, 'Yes,' and he says, 'Will
you read it over?'-I have asked him to read the account which
was in his book, but he told me to read mine. When I read my
account, he says, 'Yes, yes, yes,' checking off the articles as I
mention them. The last time I read over my account in this way,
there was one peck of meal entered against me which was not in
my own. I said I would not swear I was right, and he said he
would not swear he was right.
4347. In what way are you dissatisfied with the meal which you
get at Grutness?-It is 3s. a boll dearer than we can get it
elsewhere, because I have compared one year's account, which I
have in this memorandum-book, with the market price in Lerwick,
and I find that I am inside the limits of difference when I say that it
is 3s. a boll dearer at least.
4348. I see that this memorandum-book of yours contains an
account for several years back?-Yes.
4349. You get the prices for the goods at the time of settlement,
and mark them in your memorandum-book at the time?-Yes; or
from a neighbour who had settled before me, and who knew the
price of his meal.
4350. Were the whole of these entries in your memorandum-book
made about the time of settlement when the thing was fresh in
your memory?-Yes, I could not have made them before because I
did not know the prices until then.
4351. But it was done at the time or shortly thereafter, when you
remembered the prices which were charged against you at
settlement?-Yes.
4352. For what year is this account [showing]?-I think for 1869.
4353. The goods were supplied in 1868 and settled for in 1869?-
Yes; about February or March 1869. I cannot say to a month.
4354. And you have compared the note of prices there with the
prices in the books of a merchant in Lerwick for the same time?-
Yes; at least he said his books were for the same time. I looked at
my book and he looked in his, and he told me what the difference
was. The merchant was Mr. John Leslie, Lerwick.
4355. Was it only meal that you compared in that way?-Nothing
else. I am not sure of the barley meal; but I compared the oatmeal
with him.
4356. I see from the book that during that year you got 61/2 lispunds
of oatmeal which are all charged at 7s. a lispund?-Yes.
4357. When did you make your comparison with Mr. Leslie?-
Last night.
4358. Is there any other article you get at the store which you think
could be got cheaper elsewhere?-Yes; but I could not prove these
things so distinctly, as I have not compared them.
4359. What articles are there that you have that belief about?-
Mostly everything.
4360. In the obligation which you understand you are under to
deliver your fish to Mr. Bruce, are your sons and the other
members of your family included?-If they fish while living on his
property, they must fish to him.
4361. Have you known any cases of tenants being challenged
because their sons sold their fish to other parties than Mr.
Bruce?-There are no cases of that kind which I can distinctly
bring before you.
4362. Is there anything else you wish to state with regard to the
way in which matters are conducted in the fishing trade?-No; but
if I have liberty here to say anything in regard to Mr. Bruce
himself, I should like to be allowed to say a word. Mr. Bruce has
dealt with me and many other fishermen in a most honourable and
gentlemanly way. He has helped us when could not help
ourselves: whether he was in the knowledge that he would profit
by it or not, is not for me to say; but he has often helped us when
we required it.
4363. Do you think that under the present system of dealing you
have the advantage in a bad season?-I believe we have in a very
bad season.
4364. If you were not obliged to deliver your fish to the landlord, I
suppose he in turn would not be so ready to advance you supplies
from his store when you require them and are not able to pay for
them?-We believe so.
4365. Is it common for fishermen in that district to be considerably
in debt at the store after a bad season?-Yes, after a bad season.
4366. Do you generally get a balance in cash at settlement time, or
is it often the case that by that time you have got the whole value
of your fish paid to you in goods?-Some men have usually a good
bit of money to take, while others have not much, just as they have
had accounts at the shop, or have had money of their own with
which they could purchase goods elsewhere. Some of them may
have almost the whole value of their fishing to take in cash at
settlement, while others who have families to provide for, and
little land, and lean crops, have often very little to get, and are very
often in the landlord's debt. However, in an ordinary year, they
are not back much. At the present time, so far as I know, the bulk
of the men are clear, and most of them, I believe, would have
money to get.
4367. Are your boys obliged to act as beach boys to Mr. Bruce's
curers?-Yes.
4368. Is that part of the obligation under which you hold your
land?-I did not know that by experience until last year.
4369. How did you know it then?-My boy had the offer of a
certain sum to work to another man; and when I told Mr. Irvine
and Mr. Bruce, they were very angry that I should have done such
a thing. Therefore, for fear I should be turned off, I did not allow
my boy to take the wages which he had been offered, but kept him
at home, and told Mr. Irvine and Mr. Bruce that I would keep him.
I said I know I must be obedient, and my boy will work for you if
you want him.
4370. Where did that conversation take place between you and Mr.
Bruce and Mr. Irvine?-In Mr. Bruce's office,-the month or the
day of the month I cannot state.
4371. Were you sent for, or were you there to settle?-It was
before we settled,-perhaps in January.
4372. Were you sent for about it?-No; I wished to know if my
boy should take the wages that he had been offered.
4373. Why did you wish to know that?-Because I did not expect
they would give me the same amount of wages if he acted as a
beach boy. At the same time, they do not pay the boys ill; they pay
them tolerably well.
4374. But why did you go to see them? Had you been told before
that your boy ought not to engage except to them?-I had known
that.
4375. How did you know it?-It is publicly known that the
proprietor will want the boys of the tenantry to work for him.
4376. Had your boy been engaged before then?-He had wrought
as a beach boy the previous year.
4377. By whom had he been offered a higher wage in that month
of January?-By Messrs. Hay's man at Dunrossness.
4378. What was he to work at?-He was to work among the fish at
the livers or oil, as a beach boy to Messrs. Hay.
4379. What wages was he offered for that?-10s. for the season.
4380. When you got that offer, did you go to Mr. Bruce's office to
see about it?-Not immediately; it was a while after.
4381. Had you any communication from Mr. Bruce or Mr. Irvine
which led you to go to them about it?-No; but I knew that I was
not safe to let him go to Messrs. Hay without telling them about it.
The reason why I knew that was, because there had been a boy
agreed by a man I was fishing with to go to the [Page 109] fishing,
but the boy was kept back from the fishing, and the man had to
look out for another boy. We had two boys and two of ourselves
to make up our boat's crew; and the boy that my fellow-fisherman
told me he had agreed with was kept back, and he had to go and
search the parish for another to fill his place.
4382. Are cases of that kind common in the district?-Not very
common, but they do happen sometimes.
4383. When you went to Mr. Bruce about that matter, did you tell
him your boy had received an offer from Messrs. Hay & Co?-
Yes.
4384. What was said to you?-I am scarcely prepared to state in
public what was said to me.
4385. You are bound to state the truth.-I don't mind stating the
truth; and if I have to go for the truth, let me go. Mr. Bruce said he
did not believe that my boy had got that offer, and he was
somewhat angry. I dreaded the consequences, because I might
have no shelter if I went contradictory to his will, and I did not
know where to go if I should be turned off.
4386. But Mr. Bruce only said he did not believe you: that was all
he said?-Yes.
4387. How did he show his anger?-I saw it in his face, and I
knew it by his voice and tone.
4388. Did he say anything to you about the boy?-He just said in
an angry tone what I have stated. He said he did not believe he
had got any such offer, and that it was all a fiction to pull money
out of him.
4389. Did he say that you should not allow your boy to go?-No,
he did not say that.
4390. What else did he say?-I remember nothing more that I
could state.
4391. What was the end of it?-I told him I would not allow my
boy to work to another man, but that while I was a tenant I had to
be obedient, and I was determined to be obedient. There was no
use for being troublesome and disobedient if I wished to remain a
tenant, and I did not allow my boy to go until I settled. I then
asked them calmly if they wanted my boy. Mr. Irvine said 'Have
you not agreed your boy to another party?' I said, 'No; I have kept
my word that he should not work for any other man if you required
him, seeing I am a tenant.' They then agreed my boy, and he
worked for Mr. Bruce that year.
4392. What wages did he get?-He has not been settled with yet. I
said it was perhaps better for them to state a certain wage for him;
and Mr. Bruce said that he would not have less than £3, but he did
not say how much more.
4393. When a boy acts as a beach boy in that way, how are his
wages paid?-Generally the boy's wages are fixed before he
begins to work, but Mr. Bruce does not fix their wages until they
have wrought for a season. Then the factor sees how they have
wrought, and what he thinks they are worth. That, I know, has
been done.
4394. But how are they paid? Is it in goods or in money?-If they
don't take goods from the shop, they are paid in money at
settlement.
4395. They can either take goods in their own names at the shop,
or they can be paid in money at the settling time?-Yes.
4396. Is it usually the case that a separate account is opened in
name of a beach boy?-Yes.
4397. What is the usual age of a beach boy?-From 12 to 14 or 15,
and so on.
4398. Do you know whether, at the time of settlement, a boy has
usually any balance to receive in cash?-I should think that in
general they have something.4399. But is it not the practice that an
account is run, and the greater part of the wages is really settled
for in goods?-I could not state that exactly; because my own boy
wrought to them, and he had next to nothing from them. He
received his wages in money at the settlement without a grumble
and without a gloom.
4400. Had he no account at all?-I think he had a pocket knife.
4401. Are the wages of a beach boy generally handed over to his
parents?-So far as I know, that depends partly on the boy.
Generally his wages do very little more than purchase clothes for
him, and anything else he may require.
4402. Then generally the balance against him will amount to
nearly the whole amount of his wages, and there will be little to
get out?-I should think so; but I cannot speak positively on that
point.
4403. You do not know that from your own experience?-No.
4404. Is it usual for beach boys to have got more goods supplied
to them during the season than the amount of their wages at
settlement?-I can say nothing about that.
4405. Have you had anything to do with taking whales on the
coast?-Yes, with driving whales ashore.
4406. Have the fishermen in your quarter anything to complain of
about that?-When we get the whales flinched, and the blubber
brought up above high water mark, it is sold, and the third part of
the money is taken by the proprietor.
4407. Do you think the fishermen are entitled to get the whole?-
We think so.
4408. Who sells the oil?-There is a note sent up to Lerwick to
publish the sale. An auctioneer comes down and it is generally
sold on the spot, and the third part of the money is deducted.
4409. Who receives the money in the first instance? Is it the
auctioneer?-I don't know; but I should say it is the landlord.
4410. He accounts to the fishermen who are interested for their
share of the proceeds?-Yes.
4411. Is there any obligation to spend the money you get on these
occasions in the landlord's store?-No.
4412. You can do as you like with it?-Yes.
4413. Is there anything else you have got to say?-We all believe,
so far as I am aware, that liberty alone will never remedy our case.
Even suppose we had liberty, yet if we have no lease of our land,
the landlord can do with the land as he pleases, and render our
case worse than before.
4414. Then it is a lease that you want?-Yes, a lease of a proper
kind; but if the land rent can be raised to any figure the landlord
thinks proper, what can a lease do for us, or what can liberty do for
us. It cannot remedy our case.
4415. Then what you want is, that the landlord may be prevented
from raising his rent, and from turning you out of your farms?-
From raising it above measure, or above its real value. Another
thing is, that I can be turned out of my land at forty days warning,
after I have prepared it for winter.
4416. If you make a bargain for a lease for a certain number of
years, as they do in Scotland, then you could not be turned out
until that lease expired?-That is what we need, and the land let at
a reasonable figure.
4417. But that must depend upon the terms of your own
contract?-That may be; but the landlord sees plainly that he may
not have the power of the fishing; and if he has full power to rent
the land as he pleases, and can lay on the land what should come
from the fishing, then that would render our case more desperate
still.
4418. Do you mean that you have to pay part of your land rent
from the fishing?-Our rents depend solely on the fishing. Some
men may have a cow or a horse to sell, to help them to pay their
rent; while there may be ten who would have nothing of the kind
to sell, except their fish. On Mr. Bruce's property, so far as I am
aware, the bulk of the tenants have to pay their rents from their
fishing.