The abstract account above referred to is given below.*

* ABSTRACT ACCOUNT of WAGES paid by HAY & CO.,

Lerwick, to Shetlandmen belonging to Ships engaged in the

Greenland and Davis' Straits Seal and Whale Fishery, during the

years 1869, 1870, and 1871:-

Name of Ship Men Amount of Supplies before Paid in

Wages and Sailing, and to Cash

Oil-Money family during

the Man's

Absence

1869 Labrador 20 £94 14 10 £4 3 9 £90 11 1

1869 Intrepid 28 355 0 21/2 71 19 51/2 283 0 9

1869 Alexander 21 272 19 8 31 14 11 241 4 9

Total 69 £722 14 81/2 £107 18 11/2 £614 16 7

1870 Labrador 21 £196 9 5 £7 18 0 £188 11 5

1870 Mazinthien16 226 18 0 49 7 1 177 10 11

1870 Eclipse 12 256 2 0 29 5 9 226 16 3

1870 Erik 30 562 0 6 66 17 41/2 495 3 11/2

Total 79 £1241 9 11 £153 8 21/2 £1088 1 1/2

1871 Labrador 25 £221 7 4 ...... £221 7 4

1871 Erik 26 138 2 5 £ 8 15 3 £129 7 2

1871 Eclipse#

1871 Mazinthein#

1871 Erik to

D. Straits# 51 £359 9 9 £8 15 3 £350 14 6

1869 69 £722 14 81/2 £107 18 11/2 £614 16 7

1870 79 £1241 9 11 £153 8 21/2 £1088 1 81/2

1871 51 £359 9 9 £ 8 15 3 £350 14 6

199 £2323 14 41/2 £270 1 7 £2053 12 9 1/2

Average per

man for the

three years £11 13 6 £1 7 2 £10 6 4

# Voyage not ended.

In conclusion, I have only to add, that Hay & Co. have given

notice to their friends, the shipowners in Peterhead and Dundee,

that they cannot continue any longer to act for them.

3624. You say in that statement that you manage four estates in the

country: what are these estates?-There are two for which we act

as factors-the estates of Lord Zetland, and Mr. Bruce of

Simbister; and there are two of which we are lessees-the Burra

islands, belonging to the Misses Scott of Scalloway, and the

Gossaburgh estate, in Yell and Northmavine.

3625. You say that the tenants on the estate of Mr. Bruce of

Simbister, with the exception of those on the island of Whalsay,

and Whalsay Skerries, are free to fish for whom they like: what

is the nature of the obligation under which the tenants in the island

of Whalsay lie?-There is only one fish-curing establishment

there, and the men could not conveniently fish out of the island.

We have a place rented from the proprietor as a curing

establishment, with booths and beaches, and all curing

preparations made for receiving their fish; and it is an understood

thing that the tenants are to deliver the fish to us at the current

price of the country.

3626. That is not an obligation that enters into any written

lease?-No; it is merely an understanding with the proprietor. We

have no lease of the island.

3627. Is it a condition of the verbal tacks of the [Page 87] tenants,

that they shall fish for you?-Yes; they are made to understand

that they are to deliver their fish to us at the current price.

3628. That applies to the home fishing?-To the home fishing

only. The Whalsay men are not engaged in any other fishing.

3629. They don't go to the Faroe fishing at all?-No.

3630. Is yours the only shop upon that island?-The only shop.

3631. Have you an establishment at the Out Skerries too?-Do you

mean at the Skerries lying to the eastward, where the boats deliver

their fish?

3632. Yes.-No, we have no establishment for supplying the

people with goods; but we have beach boys and curing materials at

the Skerries to the east of Whalsay.

3633. Is there not a firm who have an establishment there?-Yes,

at Skerries; but that is a different Skerries, which lies farther out

beyond where the lighthouse is. There is more than one curer

there, but the Whalsay men don't deliver any of their fish at that

place.

3634. It is at the Out Skerries where other firms have

establishments-both shops and curing places?-Yes; but we have

nothing there.

3635. Do the Whalsay people fish for these other firms at the Out

Skerries?-No.

3636. Where do their fishermen come from?-From Lunnasting,

Delting, Nesting, and other places.

3637. They are not inhabitants of the islands?-No.

3638. Then the establishment at Out Skerries is a temporary

one?-No. I think one curer has an establishment there all the

year round, and a factor; but the fishermen don't live there all the

year round. They live in huts during the fishing, and go home to

their families when the fishing is over.

3639. You say that some of the men fish to one curer and some to

another, as they find convenient: in that statement do you refer to

the Simbister estate, with the exception of Whalsay?-Yes, with

the exception of Whalsay. It includes Whalsay also, so far as the

cattle, ponies, hosiery, and other things are concerned. There is no

restriction on them selling these where they like; it is simply the

fish they take in the island that we expect to get.

3640. In Whalsay, are the fishermen expected to deal only in your

store for their fishing materials and the supplies for their

families?-That is quite optional. They can take their supplies

from our store; and suppose they take most of them there, because

it is more convenient for them than to go anywhere else.

3641. In point of fact they have no option, because there is no

other shop in Whalsay?-There is not, but they can go to Lerwick,

and they do go there sometimes. I think the note I have given in as

to Burra answers that question.

3642. Is there any restriction on the establishment of other shops in

Whalsay?-There is no means for any person opening a shop

there. There is no shop, and no building, and no right to build in

the island without the proprietor's liberty. There is only the one

shop there.

3643. What is the population of the island?-I don't think the

census of last year would show that, because it is mixed up with

other parts of the parish.

3644. Have you any idea how many fishermen are employed by

you in the island?-Yes, I can tell that. We have twenty-seven

fully-manned boats, each with six men and boys. These are the

fishermen; but there are tenants who are not fishermen, and

fishermen who are not tenants.

3645. That would give a total of 162 fishermen employed by you,

but some of them may be members of the same family?-Yes.

3646. Are there many tenants who are not fishermen?-Not very

many.

3647. Have there been any applications for liberty to establish a

new shop in the island of Whalsay?-No.

3648. You have never, in your capacity as factor for Mr. Bruce,

received an application for ground for that purpose?-Never.

3649. Would you have any objection to grant such permission if it

were asked?-Although I am acting as factor for Mr. Bruce, the

granting or refusal of such an application would depend entirely

upon the proprietor.

3650. I suppose you cannot tell whether he would refuse it or

not?-I cannot tell. In fact we have the only curing establishment

there. We have the beaches, and all the preparations for curing,

and there could be no other establishment in Whalsay.

3651. I am not speaking of an establishment for fish-curing; but

suppose a merchant wished to establish a shop there for the sale of

provisions and soft goods, do you think he would meet with a

refusal from Mr. Bruce?-I cannot answer that question.

3652. In Whalsay you are only factors for Mr. Bruce, not lessees

of the island?-We are not lessees. I act as Mr. Bruce's factor.

3653. Yet, notwithstanding that, the islanders are bound to fish

for any one to whom the proprietor lets the fish-curing

establishment?-Yes; on the understanding with the curer, that he

pays the same price as other curers in the country pay for the

produce of the fishing.

3654. You pay rent to Mr. Bruce for your booths and curing

establishment; and in consideration of that rent it is understood

that the tenants are bound to deliver their fish to you?-Yes.

3655. Have the fishermen refused, in any cases within your

experience, to fulfil that obligation? Have they smuggled their fish

away, or endeavoured to evade that stipulation?-I understand that

before we came to the island they smuggled a great part of their

fish away to other curers, but, so far as I can learn, I don't think

they smuggle any of them away now. I believe we have got the

whole procedure.

3656. How long is it since you got the island?-I think it is five or

six years ago.

3657. Who was the merchant before?-The proprietor received

their fish himself.

3658. Suppose a fisherman were to bring his fish to Lerwick, or

take them to Skerries or any other station, and sell them, would the

result be, that he would have to leave his farm?-I cannot say what

the result would be if he were to do so, because we have never

been aware of any single case where a fisherman went past us with

his fish.

3659. But if he did so, would you consider yourselves entitled to

remove him?-No, not to remove him; but we would consider

ourselves entitled to complain to Mr. Bruce.

3660. And he would remove him?-If he thought proper.

3661. You say that in 1870, after deducting advances, you paid the

men in that island £1222: would the number of men fishing for

you at that time be about the same that you have now?-I think

there were 155 in 1870.

3662. That sum of £1222 was the amount of cash balances due to

them and paid to them at the end of the year?-Yes; and which,

when paid, left them entirely clear in our books.

3663. Was their rent paid in account with you?-These were the

payments to the fishermen. The tenants would pay their rents to

me as factor separately out of that sum.

3664. But in what form are your accounts made up?-My factory

accounts are kept entirely free from our fishing accounts.

3665. The payment of rent there would be made at the same time

when you went to settle with your fishermen?-Yes.

3666. I presume you gave them a separate receipt for their rents,

and entered the payment in a separate factory book?-Yes.

3667. Is the form of accounting with the fishermen in Whalsay the

same as you use in your dealings with your other fishermen?-

Quite the same.

3668. Have they pass-books at the shop?-Some of them have

pass-books, and some have not.

[Page 88]

3669. I suppose that in the name of each fisherman, there is an

account in the books kept at the shop?-Every fisherman has a

page for himself.

3670. In it all the goods furnished to him or to his family are

entered on the one side?-Yes.

3671. Is there a credit side to the account?-Yes. When we settle

with him, we give him credit for his share of the fishing.

3672. Is there a separate fishing-book?-There is a book kept by

the fish factor, in which he enters the fish as he receives them.

3673. He is a separate man from the shopman?-Yes; he keeps a

separate book, in which the green fish as they are received are

entered in name of the company or crew.

3674. Is a bargain made with the fishermen at the beginning of the

year?-Sometimes, but not often. Where there is no bargain made

with them, the general understanding is, that the men get what

supplies they require, and that they get also the current price of the

season for their fish.

3675. That is the current price at the end of the season?-Yes.

3676. Are they entitled to one-half of the take?-Not in this case.

They get the whole of their take. It is a different agreement

altogether from that which obtains in the case of the smacks that

prosecute the cod fishing at Faroe. In this case the boat and lines

belong to the men themselves, and the whole of their catch

belongs to them. At the end of the season their catch is added up

and divided, and, after any company expenses are taken off, the

rest is divided among the men.

3677. How are they valued?-The fish are weighed green and

measured, and the weight is entered in the factor's book. They

deliver to us twice or thrice a week, and at the end of the season

the whole is added up and converted into money.

3678. How do you estimate the money value then?-Just

according to the price of the fish for the year.

3679. But the price you pay is for cured fish?-No; the price of

cured fish is what we obtain for them when we sell them ready for

market.

3680. Then the price paid to the men is the price for green fish?-

Yes; a different thing altogether.

3681. Do you pay the men according to the price of green fish at

the end of the season?-Yes, a certain price per cwt.

3682. How much will a cwt. of green fish weigh when cured?-It

is reckoned that 21/4 cwt. of green fish will make 1 cwt. of dry fish.

3683. Then, in fixing the price of green fish at the end of the

season, the principal consideration is what the price of cured fish

may be?-Yes, the price which cured fish bring in the market.

3684. You ascertain the price of cured fish, and calculate from that

what price you are to allow to the fishermen for the green fish

throughout the season?-Yes.

3685. Is the sale of cured fish going on during the autumn and

winter, or are your sales generally later?-The sales are generally,

made in the months of September and October. The bulk of the

ling is sold in these months.

3686. Would it not be equally convenient to fix the price of the

green fish about the time when your sales are made?-It is about

that time that the price of the green fish is fixed, and we settle

immediately afterwards.

3687. I understood your settlement was not made until later?-It is

generally in November. In some cases we may settle in the

beginning or December.

3688. But with some merchants the settling time is later, is it

not?-They generally begin to settle about November, and I think

they mostly all settle about November or December.

3689. I think some statements have been made to the effect that

the settlement goes on as late in the year as February. I don't think

those statements were made with reference to your firm, but rather

had reference to others: do you know whether that is so?-I think

we have settled with most of our fishermen now.

3690. But don't you know the practice of other firms?-It is

sometimes not convenient to settle until further on in the season,

and I think Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh has not settled yet. But there

is a reason for that: he has been out of the country.

3691. In point of fact, is it not the usual practice that the

settlement does not take place until January or February?-The

settlements generally begin very soon after Martinmas, and

continue until perhaps about the end of the year. In some cases

they may as late as January or February.

3692. Is there any reason for that?-None; except that people

cannot get all their work done at one time. They must take one

district before another.

3693. Are your settlements later in some districts than they are at

Whalsay?-In some districts they are later.

3694. They may be protracted up to the New Year?-Yes,

frequently.

3695. Have you completed all your settlements now?-We have

completed all our settlements, with the exception of Burra. We

have not settled with the men there yet, but we shall commence to

settle with them immediately.

3696. Are the fishermen consulted with regard to the fixing of the

current price at the end of the season?-I think very seldom; but it

is quite an easy matter to know that the merchant can afford to

give after he has sold his fish, and every fish-curer is very anxious

to give the highest possible price he can afford to the fisherman,

for the sake of securing his services another year.

3697. But this rule cannot apply to Whalsay, because there the

fishermen are bound to fish?-Yes; but we are bound to pay the

fishermen there the same price as is paid by the other curers

through the country. The curers very often pay a higher current

price than they can afford, just from a desire to get the people's

services in the following year.

3698. The fish-curers markets, I suppose, are over all the world?-

Yes.

3699. Are they to a considerable extent in Spain?-Yes, for the

cod. A great deal of the cod is sold there. The ling is sold in

Leith, Glasgow, Ireland, and in London. There is not much of it

goes to Spain.

3700. Is there any understanding among the fish-merchants in

Shetland, after their sales have been made in September, as to

what the current price is to be held to be?-That is scarcely

necessary, because, when they have sold their dry fish, they know

exactly how far they can go with their fishermen.

3701. Do you mean that each curer knows from his own sales?-

Yes; each curer knows exactly. When we sold our fish this year at

£23, we knew what we could pay our fishermen without losing

money. We knew that we could not exceed 8s. per cwt.

3702. But, in point of fact, is there any communication between

the Shetland fish-merchants on that subject?-It is quite possible

that after the fish are sold, the fish-merchants may converse

together on the subject if they happen to meet.

3703. Is a meeting held for the purpose of fixing the current

price?-No.

3704. Has there ever been a practice of holding such meetings?-

Not that I ever heard of.

3705. Is there any correspondence entered into between the

fish-merchants for the purpose of ascertaining the average

price?-I don't know that there is any correspondence entered into

specially for that purpose; but it is quite possible that, when one

curer is writing to another, the subject may be mentioned.

3706. Am I to understand you to say that there is no practice of

meeting for the purpose of fixing the price, and that such a

meeting never has been held, to your knowledge?-I cannot say

what meetings have been held; but I am not aware of any meeting

having ever been held for such a purpose. I have not attended any

such meeting.

3707. Then is it quite correct to say, as you say [Page 89] here, that

the price paid to the fishermen for their fish is the current price of

the country?-Yes.

3708. Is it not rather the price which each fish-merchant estimates

that he can afford to give?-The price which each fish-merchant

pays makes the current price of the country; and, so far as I know,

the price that the fish-curers in Shetland have got this year for dry

fish has been £23 per. ton. They have all been sold at the same

price to south-country merchants.

3709. You believe there has been no difference?-I don't think

there has been any difference this year at all.

3710. But in one part of your statement you point out that the sum,

left as remuneration to the curer for the season's work is not very

large: does not that rather go to show that the fish-curer does not

take into consideration so much the current price as the price

which is actually paid to him for his fish?-It is the price that he

receives for his fish which enables him to say exactly what price

he can afford to pay to the fishermen. I think the curers this year

have all been paid the same price for ling, and I believe it was

considered a very high price.

3711. Is there generally much difference in the prices which

different curers get?-Very seldom; sometimes 10s. or sometimes

£1. If there is a great demand for fish, some merchants, by holding

on later than others, may obtain an advance of that amount, and in

that case they might give their fishermen a little more. Perhaps

they do so, and get more of them to fish for them another year.

3712. But the fishermen who are bound to fish for a particular

merchant don't get the benefit of such an increased price?-There

are not very many fishermen bound to fish, so far as I know; only a

few cases.

3713. To return to Whalsay: you say there are very few debts in the

books there, and that the people are considered to be in good

circumstances?-There are almost no debts due to Hay & Co.

there.

3714. Therefore, in settling, there is universally a balance in

favour of the fishermen?-Universally the balance is in favour of

the fishermen, and sometimes they are pretty large balances.

3715. Can you speak to the prices at which goods are sold in the

shop at Whalsay? Is it the market price in Lerwick?-We charge

the Lerwick prices at Whalsay, with a small addition to cover the

expenses of transit.

3716. What may be the percentage of that addition?-I cannot say;

it varies. Perhaps it would be 21/2 per cent. additional. The men

being free, we are desirous sell as low as possible, in order to

secure their custom, because they are very near Lerwick, and they

can perhaps supply themselves elsewhere.

3717. You say in your statement, 'The Shetland fishermen have

been represented as ignorant and uneducated. This is a great

mistake. They are as intelligent, shrewd, and capable of attending

to their own interest as any similar class of men in Scotland.' I

have no doubt that is quite true; but do you think they are equally

independent in character with other Scotchmen?-So far as I am

able to judge, they are.

3718. Don't you think they are a little shy about speaking out their

minds to their employers?-I cannot say what they do with others,

but they speak pretty freely to us.

3719. Do you think the Whalsay men would tell you if they desired

to be released from the condition in their tack obliging them to

fish for you, or that they would strike if they felt it to be an

obnoxious condition?-The Whalsay men have told me repeatedly

that they are far better off at present than they have ever been in

time past. They are not in debt to the fish-curer, and their rents are

well paid.

3720. I presume you would not allow them to get very deep into

your debt at the shop?-We have never had occasion to restrict

their advances very much. We could not allow them to get

very deep; but, as yet, we have not had occasion to restrict their

advances.

3721. Are the advances made to the fishermen during the course of

the season generally made by way of supplying them with goods at

the shop?-They can get any supplies they want at the shop, or

money either if they require it, during the course of the season.

3722. If they want money, to whom do they apply for it?-To the

fish factor there.

3723. What is about the extent of advances made to the fishermen

in the course of the year?-It varies very much. Some of them, I

suppose, have not 10s in the whole course of the year,-perhaps

they go and deal with some other person; while others may have

£5 or £6, or more.

3724. You say that some have not 10s. of advances: do you mean

money advances?-They get any money they want.

3725. But how much cash is advanced during the year by your fish

factor in Whalsay?-I have stated how much the produce came to,

and how much we paid in money at the end of the year. [Exhibits

statement.]

3726. That brings out the amount of cash advanced during the year

to be about £362?-Yes.

3727. So that the amount of advances in goods or on account

would come to about £920?-Yes; that was in 1870. I believe the

proportion of money is greater for the past year, because we paid

them a larger sum of money.

3728. Would the amount of goods taken this year be less or greater

than in the previous year?-I think the goods would be less this

year, because the men, having made a very good fishing in the

previous year, had less occasion to take supplies from the shop;

and therefore I think we would be giving them more money in the

course of this year than we did formerly.

3729. You think the result of the good fishing in the previous year

would be, that the men dealt less at your shop?-They had no

occasion to take so large supplies.

3730. How were they supplied with meal and other necessaries?-

They had better crops, and did not require them.

3731. I thought you said that was owing to the good fishing?-To

the good fishing and the good crops.

3732. You don't mean to say that they came oftener to Lerwick for

their provisions?-I cannot say how often they came to Lerwick.

They are quite at liberty to come here when they please.

3733. But the fact that there was a good fishing would lessen the

amount of dealing at the shop?-There was a good fishing and a

good crop; they had got a large sum of money in the previous year,

and many of them very likely had that money beside them, except

what they had lodged in bank; and they could buy for ready money

at the shop instead of entering it in the book

3734 Then one effect of a good fishing is, that the men buy at your

shop for ready money rather than by running up an account?-Yes,

frequently

3735. Do you know whether many of the fishermen in Whalsay

and elsewhere have large deposits in savings banks or other

banks?-I believe there are very large sums at their credit in the

Union Bank, which has been established longest here.

3736. Of course you have no personal knowledge of that?-No;

but if you had power to command a sight of the bank books, I

believe the sum would astonish you.

3737. There is no savings bank here except the post office savings

bank?-No.

3738. The Burra men are employed by you in the home fishing,

and those of them who choose in the Faroe fishing?-Yes.

3739. But in Burra, as in Whalsay, the men are bound to fish for

you in the home fishing?-The men are bound to deliver us their

home fish. That fishing, however, is carried on now only to a very

small extent. Most of the men in Burra are otherwise employed.

3740. How many boats have you engaged in the home fishing from

Burra?-They vary. There are a few boats that fish in spring, and

there are a few men [Page 90] who stop at home all summer, and

fish then; so that at one time there are a good number, and at

another time not half so many.

3741. Are these Burra men under an obligation which forms part

of their verbal tack?-The men who stop at home are under an

obligation, at least it is an understood thing that they are to deliver

their fish to us.

3742. Is there any written obligation to that effect?-No; but in

point of fact they could deliver them nowhere else, because we

have the stations on the islands.

3743. Could they not deliver them for salting and curing in

Scalloway?-Yes; but Scalloway is such great distance from the

curing stations, that they are much better off as they are.

3744. Are there no curing stations at Scalloway?-There are; but

Scalloway is such a great distance from Burra, that the men could

not go there every time they came from the fishing.

3745. Is the island of Trondra in your hands?-Yes; it belongs to

the Earl of Zetland.

3746. Have you a curing station there?-No.

3747. Do the Trondra people deliver their fish at Burra or

Scalloway?-I don't know if there are any Trondra people fishing

for us. They deliver at Scalloway any fish they get.

3748. There is no obligation upon them to fish for you?-No.

3749. And, in point of fact, you think they don't do it?-We get

none of their fish at Burra. It is possible they may deliver some to

our men at Scalloway.

3750. Was there an obligation signed by some of the Burra men

some years ago, binding them to fish for you?-Some years ago,

after a series of bad crops and bad fishings, the islands had got

largely in our debt, and in order to get the sons to help the fathers

to pay their rents, which we were bound to pay for them every

year, we got them to sign an obligation.

3751. Was that about eight years ago?-I think it would be about

that time. It was about the time when we were getting a renewal

of the lease. However, that obligation was found to be unworkable

and was laid aside, and has never been acted on.

3752. What were its terms?-I cannot recollect very well. The

fishers at home were to be bound to deliver their fish to us.

3753. Some of the men did sign it?-Some of them did sign it; but

some of them refused, and it was laid aside.

3754. Does the document exist?-Very likely it does. It is

probably somewhere in the office, if it has not been destroyed; but

immediately after it was signed it became quite a dead letter.

3755. Were not some of the men fined for delivering some of their

fish elsewhere?-I have made a statement about that; but it was

not for delivering their fish elsewhere.

3756. What men were so fined?-I think there were one or two of

them; but I don't remember their names.

3757. Was Peter Smith one of them?-Very possibly.

3758. Do you remember whether the money was returned to

him?-I think it was, so far as I remember. I think any fines that

were imposed were returned.

3759. You found that the exaction of this fine did not tend to make

the men more willing to deliver their fish to you?-The fines were

not imposed for not delivering their fish. The object of the fines

was to compel the sons to assist the fathers.

3760. But the fine was imposed upon the father?-Yes.

3761. Then the obligation we have been speaking of was an

obligation binding not only the tenant, but also the members of his

family?-Yes. So far as I know, none of the tenants delivered any

of their fish to us except what we get at present. Any of the

tenants who are fishing in small boats on the coast deliver all their

fish to us still.

3762. Are you aware of fish being smuggled to Scalloway, and

sold to dealers there?-I am not.

3763. If that were the case would you consider that you were

entitled to remove the men from their holdings in Burra?-There

are only a very few men who engage in the home fishing now.

The best of the fishermen are engaged fishing for other people at

Faroe.

3764. It is only when a man actually does engage in the home

fishing that he is obliged to deliver his fish to you?-Yes.

3765. If he chooses not to remain at home, or not to employ

himself in that fishing, there is no obligation upon him?-No. If

he chooses to remain at home, and employ himself fishing in small

boats on the coast, there is an obligation on him to deliver his fish

to us, but on all the other people there is no obligation, and most of

them fish to other people out of the island. I have mentioned in

my statement, that of the men engaged in the Faroe fishing, I think

only about one-fourth are employed by Hay & Co.

3766. There is no allegation that the men are bound to engage to

you in the Faroe fishing, and you say there is no obligation upon

them to sell their farm produce to you?-We never interfere with

the farm produce.

3767. Are you aware of cases in Shetland-I don't speak of your

own dealings alone, but of your own dealings and those of other

merchants-in which tenants are held bound in any way to sell

their farm produce, their cattle, or their ponies, to fish-curers who

are factors or tacksmen?-I am not aware of any such cases. It

may be the case, but not within my knowledge.

3768. Is there any system of a kind of mortgage of the cattle in

security for debts at the shops of fish-merchants?-It is quite

possible that if man wants an advance he may promise to sell the

merchant or the factor, or whoever he is, a cow or other animal

at a certain season of the year, in order to repay him that advance;

but I don't know of any other mortgage of that kind in the country.

3769. The mortgage may not be very much worth in law; but have

you known cases in which a fish-merchant, being the sole or

principal creditor of fisherman dealing at his store had so

mortgaged his cattle, and that it was marked as belonging to the

fish-merchant?-It is quite possible that may be done some cases,

but the landlord has a preference over such cattle, so that such a

mortgage would be of no value. A man may give a promise to sell

a cow two or three months hence, and on that promise get an

advance of a few pounds of money; but it depends entirely on the

man's promise whether the money is paid or not, because the

landlord can step in, if the tenant is in debt to him, and take his

animal.

3770. That is, if the tenant owes the landlord anything and has not

enough to pay the landlord's claim?-Yes.

3771. You don't know of any particular case of that sort?-I could

not mention any particular case.

3772. And you don't know of fish-merchants or tacksmen who

are in the habit, to a large extent, of squaring their debts in that

way?-No; we don't do it.

3773. The fishermen in Burra are supplied with goods at your shop

in Scalloway?-The statement I have given in contains an answer

to that question. They not confined to deal at our stores. They can

deal with any other curer or shopkeeper they choose.

3774. But, in point of fact, they generally deal at your shop in

Scalloway?-They generally deal there, and in Lerwick too, if they

want anything. If they want money, they generally come here.

3775. The Burra men deal at your shop on credit, and there is a

settlement with them once a year?-Yes; the same as with the

others.

3776. Is the book there kept in the same way as at Whalsay?-In

the same way.

3777. Is it kept in the same way as the books for your other

customers in Scalloway?-In the same way. Their supplies are

charged against them at the end of the year, and we bring the book

in here and settle with them.

3778. Is there a separate book for the Burra men at [Page 91] the

Scalloway shop?-We keep a separate book for the Burra men's

accounts in Lerwick.

3779. For their shop accounts?-For their shop accounts; and the

fish factor has a separate book, which he marks the fish he

receives from the men.

3780. What is the purpose of keeping a separate book for the Burra

men here?-There are a good many names, and it is to keep them

apart from others. At the end of the season we may be settling

with them when the other books are in use in the office.

3781. You settle with the Burra men at Lerwick, and not at

Scalloway?-Yes.

3782. But the shopkeeper at Scalloway sends in his accounts here

before you settle with them?-Yes. The men call there and see

the state of their account when they like, and then we get in a list

of their debts to the shop. There is nothing entered to their credit

there, but a list of the advances they have got from the shopkeeper

at Scalloway is sent here.

3783. Their credits are all kept here?-Yes.

3784. Are your other fishermen in that quarter settled with here or

at Scalloway?-They are settled here, for the most part.

3785. In this statement you have not told us anything about the

amount of balances generally paid to the Burra men?-I have not,

because we have not settled with them this year yet. I daresay, by

looking over the books, I could tell you what we paid them last

year and the years before. At this moment we are due the Burra

people extremely little, because all the men who have been fishing

in the smacks during the summer have been settled with, and got

their money; and for the people who stopped at home and fished

here, after we deduct their rents, we have very little money to pay

them.

3786. You charge the rent in the account against them at Burra?-

Yes.

3787. You do so because you are the tacksmen yourselves?-Yes.

3788. Then, in general, does any money pass at all in settling with

the Burra men?-Yes; there are considerable sums in some cases.

3789. In settling with those of them who are Faroe fishers do you

deduct the rent in their accounts also?-When any of the tenants

are fishing in our smacks, we deduct the rent from what they have

to receive.

3790. Do those men who fish at Faroe get their supplies at the

Scalloway shop the same as the others?-They get their supplies

there or here, as they find convenient.

3791. Have they generally an account in both shops?-Generally

they have, except where we have occasion to restrict their

advances.

3792. But if a man has an account in both shops, might there not

be some difficulty in restricting his advance?-In that case we

close the account at Scalloway, and give the man what he requires

here; and then we can restrict his advances if we see it to be

necessary.

3793. Have you often found it necessary, after bad fishing seasons,

to make considerable advances to men in the way of provisions?-

Yes, we have found that necessary, because the men could get

supplies from nowhere else, and we were obliged to give them

meal and other things in order to keep their families alive.

3794. Are you speaking of Burra and Whalsay, or of all your

fishing stations?-Most of the shops that we have in the country

are obliged to give large advances in the case of bad seasons.

Three years ago the crops were very bad; the people had not seed

to sow their land with; and we brought in a pretty large quantity of

seed-corn and potatoes, which we supplied to the people in Yell.

3795. That was on the Gossaburgh estate, of which you are

tacksmen?-Yes; and they have since then paid it up in full.

3796. Do you act in the same way with fishermen are not bound to

fish for you?-If they were under any engagement-if they signed

an obligation to deliver their fish to us-then we would do so.

3797. Whether they were on an estate under your management or

not?-Yes.

3798. Have you sometimes made such engagements with them?-

Occasionally we have.

3799. Was that with individual men?-Yes, with individual men

when they wanted advances.

3800. That is to say, at the end of the fishing season, when you

found on settling up that there was a balance against a man, and

that he continued to want further supplies from your shop, you

would enter into an engagement with him to fish to you next

year?-Yes.

3801. Would that engagement be a verbal one?-Sometimes

written and sometimes verbal.

3802. In that case the advances would be in the form of goods

supplied at your shops?-Both money and goods. We would give

him money if he asked for it.

3803. But the bulk of the advances would be in goods?-No.

Money would frequently be given when they wanted a special

advance.

3804. In a case of that kind, are your shopkeepers instructed to

make the advance to the men in either way?-If a man wants an

advance of £1 or £2 we make it to him ourselves, and the people

when they want goods, go to the shop for them.

3805. At what time are these advances generally made?-During

the winter or the spring seasons, before the fishing begins again.

3806. And during the autumn, before the settlement for the years

fishing has come round?-Yes. They frequently get money during

the summer.

3807. I suppose the settlement with your men in Lerwick takes

place in the office and not in the shop?-Yes, in the office.

3808. When the men get their payments in money, are they at

liberty to go where they like to spend them?-Yes; they get the

money in their hands, and go away from us with it.

3809. Whether they are Burra men or Whalsay men or

strangers?-Yes. We settle with the Whalsay men at Whalsay;

but all the money that we give at the settlements here, the men

go away with it out of the office.

3810. Is the settlement with the Whalsay men made in the shop?-

No; they are settled with at the manor-house at Simbister.

3811. Where is the settlement made at Gossaburgh?-The

settlement with the Yell tenants is made at the house of West

Sandwick.

3812. Have you shops in Yell?-None.

3813. The fishermen there, however, are bound to deliver their fish

to you?-Some of the Yell fishermen deliver their fish in summer

at Fetlar, and others again deliver them at Northmavine.

3814. What is the extent of the Gossaburgh estate?-I suppose the

rental is about £400 or £500, and I think the number of tenants is

about 120.

3815. Are the whole of these men bound to fish to you alone?-

Not the men sailing out of the country. It is only the men

remaining at home and fishing there during the summer who are

bound to fish to us.

3816. Who is the proprietor of the Gossaburgh estate?-Mrs.

Henderson Robertson.

3817. In speaking of the rental, you refer to the rent paid by

Messrs. Hay & Co. as lessees, which is about £500 a year?-Yes; I

think it is between £400 and £500.

3818. What will the average rental of the holdings be?-Perhaps

from 30s. to £5 or £6. There is one party who pays £65 or £70, but

he is not a fisherman.

3819. What is the gross rental paid to you from the estate?-It will

be seen from the valuation roll. I could not tell the gross rental

off-hand, because it is a peculiar tack. We pay a certain fixed sum

for it, and then we pay all the burdens on the estate, and it varies

somewhat. It is more in one year than in another.

3820. Are the tacks under which you hold Burra and Gossaburgh

in writing?-Yes, they are both written tacks.

3821. Do these tacks contain any reference to your [Page 92]

rights with regard to fishing?-The tacks state that we are at

liberty to let the lands, remove the tenants, and take new tenants,

and that we are to pay certain sums for the ground. I don't

remember whether there is anything specially mentioned about the

fishings. I think in the Burra tack there is something about them it

gives us right to all the fishings in the island. I am not sure that

the original proprietor had not a Crown charter which gave him a

right to the whole fishings, including oyster fishings and others;

and I think we have the whole of these rights.

3822. Perhaps you will show me these two tacks, so that I may

make an excerpt of any clause relating to the fishings?-I will do

so. There is no clause in either lease relating to the obligation of

the tenants to deliver their fish to the tacksmen.

3823. You say in your statement 'We have other curing stations at

different parts of the islands, and employ a number of men and

boys from all quarters during the summer months:' that refers to

the home fishing?-To the home fishing solely.

3824. There are curing stations at places quite separate from any

of the four properties you have been speaking of?-Yes.

3825. Where are they?-We have a curing station at Dunrossness;

we have another station at Fetlar; and we cure to some extent at

Scalloway, and also at Lerwick.

3826. At all of these stations have you shops from which you

supply the men?-We have a shop at Scalloway, and another here.

We have a factor at Fetlar, who supplies the fishermen with what

they require; and we have a man at Dunrossness, who keeps

supplies there also.

3827. At Dunrossness have you ever come into conflict with Mr.

Bruce's people with regard to the sale of goods or the purchase of

fish?-I think not.

3828. Is it understood there that you are to purchase from people

who are not upon his lands?-We purchase from people who are

not upon his lands, that is, from the Simbister or any other tenants,

who are quite free.

3829. But not from the Sumburgh tenants?-They never offer us

any of their fish, and we never ask them. We never interfere with

Mr. Bruce's fishings.

3830. Do you ever purchase from the Quendale tenants?-No, I

think not.

3831. You say fishings of all kinds succeed best when the men are

paid by shares. When they are secured in monthly wages, there is

no inducement for exertion. That is with reference to the Faroe

fishing?-Yes.

3832. Do you form that opinion from your experience of both

systems?-Yes, because on some occasions we have had to pay

wages to the men; but that has been very seldom.

3833. I think in another part of your statement you say that, when

an agreement to pay monthly wages has been made, the men

sometimes, if the price has been high, have repudiated their

bargain, and asked to be paid according to the current price at the

end of the season?-Yes.

3834. Has that happened often?-No; very seldom. The men

generally prefer to go on shares. There have been one or two

occasions when we had to guarantee them monthly wages in order

to induce them to go out to the fishing, but at the same time, if

their share of the fish exceeded that monthly wage, they got it.

3835. Is it your opinion that it would be a wholesome change if the

men were paid by wages, or that it is better for both parties that

things should remain as they are?-I don't think it would be a

good change to pay them by wages.

3836. Would it not tend to form more provident and careful habits

among the fishermen if they knew exactly how much they were to

receive?-I think it would be very much against the fishings if

such a system were adopted. The men would not get nearly so

many fish, and they would not earn so much money, if they were

paid by wages, as they do at present. Some of the men who are

fishing at the haaf earn as much £15 or £20 as during the summer,

and they would not get any one to pay them wages of that amount.

3837. How much would that be per month?-Perhaps about £5 per

month. No one would engage them at that figure.

3838. In the home fishing the boats generally belong to the

men?-I think, for the most part, they do.

3839. Is it a common practice for the fish-curer to advance the

money for a boat, or to supply the boat to the men and receive

payment from them by instalments?-It is generally the

understanding, that if a crew get a new boat, they pay up for it in

three years. In some cases they are able to pay up for it in one year

when there is a good fishing. I may mention one case in

Dunrossness, the year before last, where six mem came to us and

wanted a boat and lines. We gave them the advance, fitted them

out, and supplied their families during the season, and at the end of

the season they had earned with that boat and lines £200. The

agreement was, that they were to pay for the boat in one year if

they could; and if not, they were to get credit for three years. They

paid up for this boat and lines clear, and had money to get at the

end of the season.

3840. When an arrangement of that sort is entered into, is a certain

sum deducted from the men's earnings at the end of the year in

respect of the boat?-There is an account kept for the boat. If they

pay one-third share the first year, it is taken off as a whole, and not

taken off each individual.

3841. They are jointly and severally liable for the price of the

boat?-Yes; they have a company account. The boat is charged to

that account; and when they settle, there are two-thirds carried

down to the debit of each man, and the rest is paid up.

3842. Then, in every case of that kind, there is a boat account

separate from the accounts of the individual members of the

crew?-Yes.

3843. And if any of the men have gone away from the country, or

have got deep in debt before the boat is paid up, the other

members of the crew remain liable for the whole amount?-They

are liable in point of law, but it is very seldom they pay anything

beyond their own share.

3844. When that comes to be paid out of the share of a man who

has an individual account, is his share of what remains due on the

boat generally entered to his debit in his own account each year?-

No, not separately. We keep an account against the boat and the

crew, and we give them credit for the whole of their fish when we

come to settle with them. Then we take off one-third the price of

the boat, along with the cost of any other supplies they may have

had in company, and divide the balance and enter it to each

separate man's credit, leaving two-thirds of the price of the boat at

the debit of the boat account.

3845. The balance that remains in favour of the men after that

comes into their separate accounts?-Yes.

3846. So that the boat account has a priority in the settlement over

the individual accounts of the men?-Yes.

3847. Where such a boat account exists, is it the case that the

individual men are generally, or always, dealing at the shop of the

merchant who advances the boat?-I cannot say. The men are at

liberty to deal where they like. Getting an advance of a boat does

not compel them to take their supplies from the same merchant.

3848. But is there any understanding or practice according to

which the men do deal at the merchant's shop?-I cannot say.

The men that we deal with are at liberty to take their supplies

either from us or from any other shop in the country.

3849. Are your shopkeepers allowed to make any intimation to the

men that they are expected to deal at your shop?-They are never

told to do so, and they never do it, so far as I am aware.

3850. Would they be checked or reprimanded if they did it?-We

never had occasion to reprimand them, because we never said a

word about it ourselves. Our shopkeepers never did it by our

orders, and I don't think they ever did it of their own accord.

[Page 93]

3851. In agreeing to open a boat account with men in that way, is

any preference given to men who deal at your shops, or who

undertake to deal there? Would you more readily agree to open an

account with such men than with others who did not deal with

you?-That is never taken into consideration at all.

3852. But when a boat account is opened, are they always

expected to deliver their fish to you until it is paid off?-That is

always part of the understanding, that they shall fish to us as long

as they're due a balance on the boat.

3853. And when the balance is paid, then they are free?-Yes;

they are at liberty to renew the agreement with us, or to go

anywhere else they like.

3854. Do you find that, at the end of the period when the balance

is paid off, the men are generally ready to continue to fish for

you?-Sometimes they fish for us, and sometimes they shift and

go to another curer.

3855. There is no general rule about that?-No.

3856. You say in your statement, that the men are quite safe with

the arrangement to get the current price at the end of the season for

their fish: 'They know the competition between curers all over the

islands is so keen, that they are secured to get the highest possible,

price that the markets can afford. Any curer that can offer a little

advantage to the fishermen over the others is certain to get more

boats the following year; and this is carried so far, that men with

limited capital, in their endeavours to obtain a large share of the

trade by giving credit and gratuities, in one way and another leave

nothing to themselves, and the end come to grief:' is that a

common thing in the islands?-It is not common, but it does

happen occasionally.

3857. Has that any connection with a statement which was made

in the evidence given in Edinburgh, about the necessity which a

merchant was under, to have a large amount of bad debts in order

to succeed in business?-I daresay it has.

3858. I suppose that refers to the same sort of dealers men with

limited capital, who push their business by giving the fishermen an

advantage in that way, and who were said to come to grief from

having too few bad debts?-Yes.

3859. Do you suppose the gentleman who gave evidence to that

effect, and which you have criticised in another part of your

statement, was referring to the same cases that you are there

referring to?-I am not referring to any particular case in that

statement. It is only afterwards that I mention evidence. In this

case, I say that a man with small capital who gives too large

advances to the fishermen, which they cannot repay, is very likely

to be unable to pay his own creditors.

3860. When you speak of him giving too large advance, do you

mean in the shape of supplies of going out of his shop?-Yes; and

giving too many gratuities to the fishermen, so that they have all

the profit, and he has none.

3861. What do you mean by gratuities to fishermen?-Fees, and

other inducements to fish, besides the regular current price.

3862. Is that both in the home and Faroe fishing?-Not in the

Faroe fishing. I refer to the home fishing only.

3863. Then in the home fishing there is sometimes an arrangement

to give fees to the fishermen in addition to the current price?-

Yes. For instance, the skipper of a boat, being the most

experienced man of the crew, generally gets a small fee; and there

are other gratuities paid, which differ at different stations.

3864. These gratuities are given in order to secure the fish of a

large number of fishermen?-Yes.

3865. Have you cases in your mind at present, which these

gratuities, and the excessive advances in goods, have led to the

failure of people entering into the trade for the first time?-In

making this statement I had particular cases before my mind; but

such do happen occasionally through the islands.

3866. You don't think the existence of such cases inconsistent

with your denial of Mr. Walker's statement with regard to bad

debts?-I have referred to his statement on that subject, simply for

the purpose of pointing out the absurdity of it.

3867. Of course if you speak of the debts as being absolutely bad

debts, the statement is absurd, as you point out but suppose that a

man starting business in Shetland gets a number of fishermen into

his debt to a certain amount, has he not a hold, over these

fishermen, so as to compel them to deliver their fish to him in

future?-He has no hold over them whatever for that purpose. He

has just this hold over them that if he chooses, he can go into the

court with them and prosecute them; but after they have fished to

him for some time, and find that they can get no further supplies

from him, they are very likely to go away and offer their services

to some one else.

3868. But suppose that at the end of the season a merchant has 100

fishermen who are in debt to him to the extent of £2 or £3 or £4,

and whom he can prosecute at once for recovery of that money, do

you think the fishermen have no inducement to continue to deliver

their fish to him, rather than allow him to prosecute?-It may

induce some of them to do so, but some of them may be frightened

and leave him, in case he were to prosecute them. We generally

find that when a man gets into debt, to us, we never see him again.

3869. Do you mean in debt to that extent, or to larger extent?-

When he gets into our debt to the extent of £6 or £8, he very soon

leaves us, and we never see him again. In many cases they know

very well that the prosecutor might have to pay the law expenses

and would get no return.

3870. May that not arise from the fact that you deal more leniently

with your debtors than other merchants?-I don't think we do. I

think other merchants carry on their businesses on much the same

principles as ourselves.

3871. Does it not strike you that the statement you are

contradicting about the value of bad debts to a Shetland business,

although it might be exaggerated in the terms which it is put, has

nevertheless a certain amount of truth in it?-I know quite well,

that if a man with small capital lays out that capital in buying

goods to supply fishermen, and delivers these goods to the

fishermen, and then has to pay for the goods and has nothing to

pay them with, he must shut his shop and become bankrupt.

3872. But if he has sufficient money to carry on for a little,-or if

he gets his bills renewed for a certain time, and manages to get the

fishermen bound to him by the fact that they are in his debt, and by

the fear of being prosecuted for that debt,-may he not have a very

good season next year, and be able to get a large supply of fish,

which he can sell at a profit, and so gradually make his way?-

Fish are not like ready money. You may have a pretty large

number of men fishing to you, but you cannot convert their fish

into money until perhaps the end of twelve months. You only get

your fish sold once a year, and you won't get any person in the

south to give you goods on credit for twelve months. Besides, a

fish-curer must always have a certain amount of debts standing in

his books against fishermen, and stock which he cannot make

available.

3873. Do you mean shop goods?-Yes, he must have shop goods,

and he must have debts in his books to a pretty large amount

before he can carry on extensively.

3874. I am assuming always that the man, although his capital may

be limited, has a certain amount of capital which will carry him on

for a couple of years?-Well, then the end would be sure to come.

3875. But he may manage to make a good business, and to carry it

on successfully; if he gets a certain number of fishermen under an

obligation to fish for him; or if he can induce them by offering

premiums and gratuities to fish for him rather than for others,-

can he not?-But in the meantime he is giving them supplies; and

while they may have got into his debt to the extent of £5 or £6

each man this year, on the understanding [Page 94] that they are to

fish to him next year and pay off their debt, yet when he comes to

settle with him he may find that they have not only not paid up

their old debt, but that there is something more added to it, as he

has been giving them supplies all the time.

3876. But, in a case of that sort the fish-merchant will probably try

to keep the supplies which he gives to his people down to as low a

point as possible; and if the season has been a good one for

agricultural produce, they may not require very extensive supplies

in the second season?-Perhaps so; but generally men who have

got into debt the first year, require supplies afterwards; and if you

stop the supplies at any time after the fishing has begun, the man

stops work, and when one man in a boat's crew stops work it

throws the whole idle.

3877. Therefore you think the fact of men getting into your debt

has no effect in securing their services as fishermen to you for the

future?-No. It is a certain way of throwing away money, and

getting rid of their services.

3878. Have you had any experience as to the mode of settling with

men who go to the herring fishing?-Yes.

3879. Is your firm engaged in that fishery?-It has been quite a

failure here for the last two or three years.

3880. What is the mode of dealing with the fishermen there? Is it

the same system that is pursued at Wick?-The herring fishing

here, for the most part, is carried on in the same small open boats

as are used at the haaf. At Wick they have large boats for the

purpose. Here each man has a certain number of nets of his own,

and they use their own boats and nets.

3881. When is the bargain made about the division of the produce;

or are the men engaged upon wages?-For the past few years the

herring fishing here has been so trifling, that scarcely any person

took the trouble to make a bargain with the men about it. If they

caught any herrings and delivered them, they generally made a

bargain for them about the time they commenced.

3882. Were they to get so much per cran?-Yes.

3883. Is that the same practice that is followed at Wick?-The

same practice, I think. At Uyea Sound I think there were as many

as sixty small boats that went to that fishing; but for the last two or

three years they have not cured a single cran of herrings, so that

the thing was not worth our attention.

3884. Are you aware what the general arrangement between the

fishermen and the curer in the herring fishing is-I don't speak of

Shetland alone, but at other places?-I understand the boats and

nets at Wick and other places belong to the fishermen; but the men

there are largely indebted to the fish-curers, who have to make

large advances to them before they can carry on the fishing.

3885. But the bargain made at the beginning of the season is for a

price per cran?-Yes.

3886. And that is due when?-It is not settled, believe, until the

end of the fishing.

3887. But the price is fixed at the beginning?-Yes.

3888. Would not that be a more advantageous arrangement for all

parties in the home fishing or in the Faroe fishing than that which

at present exists?-I don't think the fishermen here would agree to

it. We have on several occasions made an agreement with

individuals of both descriptions of crews, at the beginning of the

season, to give them a certain price for their fish; and if it

happened, as it frequently does, that the price rose towards the end

of the season, we had, when we came to settle with them, to pay

them at the increased price.

3889. You have already mentioned that; but, assuming that the

fishermen would agree to it,-and I have no doubt you could

compel them to agree to it if there was a bargain to that effect,-

would it not be a more reasonable and wholesome arrangement

altogether for both parties?-We would certainly be willing to

agree to it, and I think the other fish-curers would, and take their

chance.

3890. In that case you would take your chance of rise or fall in the

market?-Yes.

3891. And there would be none of the fishermen but what would

have some idea, as the season went on, of how much his earnings

would be?-So they would; but if our fishermen had made such an

arrangement, and they came to know that other men were getting

higher price from other curers at the end of the season, it would

make our men dissatisfied, and we would have to throw our

agreement aside. If we did not do that, our men would leave us,

and not fish for us another year.

3892. Do you mean that that arrangement could not be entered into

by any individual fish-curer unless there was a general

arrangement to do so among the curers in the islands?-Yes; the

whole of the curers would require to agree to it.

3893. But, would it not be more advantageous all parties, on the

whole? I think you say that in your opinion it would be?-We

would be very well pleased to have a fixed agreement at the

beginning of the season, and very well pleased also to pay the men

altogether in cash when we settled with them. In that way we

would keep clear of bad debts.

3894. Would not such an arrangement obviate the objection you

have to a change on the ground that the fisherman's exertions

would be less if he had no inducement to work,-because, if that

arrangement were carried out, the fisherman would be induced to

use all his exertions in order to get as large a take of fish as

possible?-He has the same inducement now.

3895. That is so; but at present he does not know until the end of

the season how much he is to get for his fishing during the year?-

They are generally satisfied that they will get the full value of the

article.

3896. But the policy of the Legislature in some other departments

seems to be, that the working man shall know week by week how

much his earnings are, and how much he is spending upon goods:

could not that be done here?-No; it is impossible here, because

one week, or one fortnight, or perhaps three weeks, may elapse in

the summer when a man does not earn one sixpence.

3897. But if there was some system of paying fixed price of so

much per cran or so much per cwt. for fish delivered, the

fisherman would be able to calculate more nearly what his income

was going to be during the year than he is now, and be able to

regulate his expenditure accordingly?-The price of fish has

varied very little for many years, and a fisherman can know pretty

nearly what he is earning. The following is a statement of the

prices that have been paid for the last six years; from which you

will see that the variation has been extremely small.

PRICES of Fresh Fish paid at Burra, compared with

the Rates paid at other Stations in Shetland, for

six years, 1865 to 1870 inclusive.

YEAR BURRA ISLANDS OTHER PLACES

Spring Summer Summer

Ling Cod Ling Cod Ling Cod

s. d. s. d. s. d. s. d. s. d. s. d.

1865 7 0 7 0 7 0 7 0 7 6 6 6

1866 8 0 7 6 8 0 7 6 8 6 7 6

1867 6 0 7 0 6 0 6 0 6 0 6 0

1868 6 0 6 6 6 6 5 0 6 6 5 0

1869 7 0 6 6 7 0 6 6 7 0 6 6

1870 7 0 6 6 7 3 6 0 7 3 6 0

3898. Then, upon the whole of that matter we have been speaking

of, you don't think the introduction of a system similar to that

which prevails in the Wick herring fishing would be beneficial

either to the one side or the other, although you would be willing

to adopt it?-We would be quite ready to adopt it.

[Page 95]

3899. But, as a matter of opinion, you don't think it would be

advantageous?-As far as my own opinion goes, I do not think it

would be in any way advantageous either to the fish-curers or to

the fishermen.

3900. You have a few sentences in your statement with regard to

the hosiery trade, in which you say you don't believe it would pay

the expenses and servants wages: is that your opinion?-Yes; if we

were to buy for ready money.

3901. What is your reason for forming that opinion?-The people

get so much higher prices for their articles when they take goods,

that we could not buy for ready money and compete with the

people in the trade.

3902. Do you deal in the same goods as those merchants who deal

in hosiery?-Yes, to a certain extent, but not to such a large extent

as them. They keep goods for the purpose of exchanging for

hosiery, while we only keep some for supplying the fishermen.

3903. Are you in a position to say whether your prices for tea and

soft goods are higher or lower than the prices of the persons who

purchase hosiery?-I think tea and groceries and other things, sell

for very much the same all over town.

3904. Is it the same thing with soft goods and cotton?-Yes, I

think they are very much the same.

3905. If hosiery were paid for in cash, do you not think the people

might come to your shop and buy goods to greater advantage than

they get them for at present?-I suppose they would go to any

place in town where they got the goods best and cheapest. I have

said in my statement, we would be quite ready to buy the hosiery

ourselves for cash; but I believe we would get a very small portion

of the trade, because, when the people were getting perhaps 1s. in

cotton or in other things for an article, we could not afford to give

them any more than 9d. or 10d. in cash, and therefore they would

not come to us.

3906. But suppose they were to get 9d. or 10d. in cash, would they

not be able to buy their cotton goods to greater advantage?-I

don't think it. They could not go to the hosiers' shops and buy

cotton goods marked at 1s. for anything less than that. They might

perhaps get a small discount, but it would be very little.

3907. Does it not appear to you that the practice of paying in kind

must raise the prices of the goods that are so given in exchange for

hosiery?-There are a great many people both here and throughout

the country engaged in the trade; and when the girls have articles

to sell, I suppose they find out the shops where they can make the

best bargain, and go there, so that there is competition amongst the

hosiery merchants as well as in other trades.

3908. Do you think it is the case that the profit charged upon

drapery goods in Lerwick is greater than it is in other places, in

consequence of the practice of purchasing hosiery with goods?-I

am unable to give an opinion upon that, because I cannot say what

are the profits upon goods elsewhere; but I believe the difference

between our prices and the prices charged by the hosiers for the

same class of goods would be found to be very little if it was

examined into.

3909. You are not aware that you sell cheaper, than the merchants

who purchase hosiery?-I don't think we sell very much cheaper

than they do.

3910. Do you think you sell any cheaper?-Not very much.

3911. Did the obligation which was entered into eight years ago by

the Burra men refer to the home fishing only, or was there any

obligation in it with regard to the Faroe fishing too?-I think it

referred to the home fishing chiefly.

3912. And not to the Faroe fishing?-It speaks for itself.

3913. Can you show it to me?-I think I can. I have not seen it for

several years, but it must be somewhere in the office. If I can get

it, I will be ready to show it.

3914. Is it not the case that the supply of men for the Faroe fishing

is now generally sufficient without any such obligation, and that

sometimes there is an excess in the supply of men who are willing

to go to that fishing?-No; on the contrary, the men are very

scarce and it is difficult to get the smacks manned up. I question

very much whether we shall be able to get them all manned up this

year.

3915. What is the cause of their reluctance to go to that fishing?-

They made a bad fishing last year, and they are very unwilling to

go again.

3916. Did the liberty money or fines which were imposed in Burra

apply at all to tenants refusing to go to the Faroe fishing?-I think

not. These fines were imposed with the view of getting the sons to

assist their parents who were in debt, and to enable them to pay

their rents, by making their earnings come through our hands.

When the people went elsewhere, their earnings did not come

through our hands, and we had not that check upon them.

3917. Are you quite certain the fines had nothing to do with the

Faroe fishing at all?-It is many years since that I can scarcely say,

and the Faroe fishing has not been carried on for many years.

Perhaps that attempt was made by us about the time when the

Faroe fishing commenced; but it was with the view of keeping the

sons at home, and to enable their fathers to remain in the islands

and to pay their rents, because the sons usually went away in

summer, and remained a burden on their parents during the winter.

3918. Do you remember whether at any time there was a proposal

on the part of the Burra islanders to rent the island from the

landlord directly?-I heard there was such a proposal.

3919. In what form was the proposal made?-It never came

through my hands; but I understand the men wrote to Mr. Mack, in

Edinburgh, who acted for the proprietors, offering him a higher

rent than we had paid before.

3920. How long ago was that?-I could not condescend on the

number of years. It was about the time that our tack was out.

3921. That would be about the time when the obligation you spoke

of was suggested or entered into?-I think it was perhaps about the

same time.

3922. That offer was refused?-Yes. Mr. Mack knew very well,

that while some of the tenants would pay their rent punctually,

others, when left to themselves, would have nothing to pay it

with when the rent time came round, and of course he would

not treat with them. He thought it better to get a fixed sum,

payable half-yearly, which the tenants could not guarantee him.

The rent of Burra is paid by us half-yearly, one half at Whitsunday

and the other half at Martinmas; while the tenants, of course, if

they were left at liberty, would only pay once a year.

3923. Is it the usual practice in Shetland to pay rent only once a

year?-Yes; to pay it at Martinmas,

3924. That arises from the fact that the tenants generally depend

upon the produce of their fishing for the money with which to pay

their rent?-Yes; they realize their earnings about that time.

3925. Is it the case that the inducement to your firm to lease Burra

in the way you have explained, was mainly for securing to

yourselves the service of the fishermen?-We had had a lease of

Burra for a very long time, and had transactions with the people all

along, and they were due us a very considerable sum. They are not

due us so much now, but at that time they were due us a very

heavy sum; and if we had given up the tack, much of that money

would have been lost. That was one inducement to us to renew

our lease.

3926. But did you expect to recoup yourselves merely by the rent

payable by the fishermen, or by their being obliged to fish for

you?-By their being able to pay their debts through the fishing.

3927. In other words, they would not have been so likely to have

continued to fish for you if you had not remained the tacksmen?-

If we had not remained the tacksmen, the island would have been

let on tack to some one else, and they would have taken our place.

3928. Do you mean that a lease would probably have [Page 96]

been given to some other fish-merchant?-Yes; there is

no inducement to any one else to take a tack of Burra.

3929. Is that because it is the general practice in Shetland for the

landlord or the tacksman to be entitled to receive the fish?-No;

but the tack-duty of Burra is so near the gross rental, that there

would be no inducement to a person to take the island on tack, and

to collect the rents and pay them over to the proprietor.

3930. You say that very few people in Burra engage in the home

fishing now?-Yes; comparatively few.

3931. So that the Burra islands cannot be so profitable an

investment for your firm as formerly?-It is not.

3932. Does the gross rental from it exceed the tack-duty by any

considerable sum?-No; only by a very small sum.

3933. How much?-Unless I had the rental here, I could not speak

definitely; but I could show you the gross rental of Burra, and I can

tell you the tack-duty afterwards.

3934. Can you do the same with regard to Gossaburgh?-Yes.

3935. Is there any practice in the home fishing of selling the

smaller fish without passing them through the books; that is, the

small fish caught near the shore at Scalloway, or elsewhere on the

coast?-There are haddocks and small fish caught there; and

through the winter the men just take them into Scalloway every

day as they catch them, and sell them for goods or money as they

choose.

3936. These transactions don't pass through your books?-No; we

don't see what fish of that kind have been purchased, except from

the factor's book at the end of the year. We then see how much

fish he has purchased from all quarters.

3937. The factor purchases these fish, and pays for them in such

goods as the men may want at the time?-Yes; on the spot.

3938. These are separate transactions, and are settled at once?-

Yes.

3939. In that case, is the price for the fish higher or lower than in

any of your other dealings with the fishermen?-I think that,

within the last few years it has generally been less, where they

settled at once, than it came to be at the end of the season, when

we came to arrange the men's accounts.

3940. How does that happen?-Because generally at the end of the

season the price comes up, and people buying fish on chance are

not inclined to give the same price for them which they would give

at the end of the season, when they know what they are worth. If

we buy fish from the men just now, we cannot tell what they will

realize in summer, when they are dry and sent to market.

3941. Then, if the fish-merchant were to pay for all his fish as they

were delivered, would that have a tendency to make him more

cautious about giving a high price to his fishermen?-I think it

would.

3942. Do you think that men curing their own fish would be at a

great disadvantage as compared with large curers?-I think they

would, because they have no means for curing.

3943. You are aware, I suppose, that that is one of the statements

made by the fishermen, when they come forward with complaints

about the existing system: that they want to have liberty to cure

their own fish, and dispose of them in the market as they please?-

I have heard so. For some time, in Dunrossness, the men did cure

their own fish, but they never could make them in a marketable

state. They were always objectionable, and they never could bring

so high a price in the market as fish prepared by regular curers.

If each boat's crew were to cure their own fish, they would be

at a great disadvantage, because they have not the means of

curing them properly: they have no vats, no covers, no mats, and

no qualified curers for the purpose. They would likely employ

children for that purpose, and members of their own family.

3944. When the men cure their own fish, how is that generally

done?-I suppose they cure them in turns, and turn them out on

the beach until they are dried. They are often very insufficiently

salted, or over-salted; and when they are dry, they are not fit for

the market.

3945. In your operations you have a complete apparatus for the

purpose?-Yes; and we require qualified men-people who

understand the process of curing-to attend to them.

3946. Therefore, in your opinion, a fisherman curing his own fish

would realize a much less price for them than you could give

him?-Yes; and very often they would be altogether in an

unmerchantable state.

3947. You are still factor on the Simbister estate?-Yes.

3948. Part of that estate, in the neighbourhood of Channerwick,

was at one time let to Robert Mouat?-Yes.

3949. I believe he had right under his lease to receive delivery of

all the fish caught by the tenants?-No. The lease expressly states,

that if the fishermen deliver their fish to him, he is bound to pay

them the current price of the country. The expression is, 'If the

fishermen deliver them;' that is all that is said about it.

3950. Is the lease in your hands?-Yes.

3951. You will show it to me, in order that I may take an excerpt

of that clause?-Yes.

3952. Do you remember the case of a John Leask, a fisherman

at Channerwick, whom Mouat had threatened to turn out of his

farm, and who came to you some time about March 1870 in

consequence of that threat?-I don't remember that. I don't know

the man; but it is possible he may have come to me. There were

two or three of them who come to me complaining about their

treatment by Mouat. I showed them the clause in the tack, and

told them that if they fished to him he was bound to pay them the

current price of the country, but that I saw nothing in the tack to

compel them to deliver their fish to him.

3953. Were you aware that for many years previously the tenants

in that district had been under the idea that they were bound to

fish for the tacksman?-I had no concern with it before I got the

factorship, three years ago. It is only three years since I was

appointed factor.

3954. Who was your predecessor?-Mr. Bruce generally settled

with the tenants himself, or Mr. Spence.

3955. Is it consistent with your own knowledge that there was such

an understanding upon that part of the Simbister estate?-The men

told me that Mouat insisted on getting their fish; that is all I know

about it.

3956. You don't know of it yourself, except from these

applications which were made to you by the men?-No; I had

nothing to do with Mouat or his tack previously.

3957. Did you communicate with Mouat in consequence of the

statements the fishermen made to you?-I don't remember that I

communicated with him in writing, but I may have told him that

the men were complaining about being forced to fish to him.

3958. Did you also tell him that he was not entitled to require them

to fish to him?-It is quite possible I told him that, but I had very

few conversations with him on the subject.

3959. If there was such an understanding among the men, I

suppose it would be naturally enough accounted for by the fact

that in former times such obligations were usual or universal in

Shetland?-Perhaps it would be.

3960. I presume such obligations were universal formerly?-I

think that formerly more of the proprietors cured their own fish

than is the case now.

3961. But in the old times it was part of the tenant's duty to deliver

his fish to his landlord?-Yes.

3962. And I fancy, that although you say fishermen are generally

free, yet any complaints that are made about them being bound

arise from the remains of that old system still prevailing?-

Perhaps so.

3963. There is no doubt that there was such an understanding and

such an obligation formerly?-No.

3964. And in one or two cases there is such an obligation still?-

Yes; but I think there are very few of the proprietors now who

have any personal concern [Page 97] with their fishings. I think

there are only two or three of them.

3965. Is Mr Bruce of Sumburgh one of the parties to whom you

refer?-Yes.

3966. Does he purchase fish from the tenants on his estate?-He

purchases fish over all. I suppose the free men can come to him

and offer their fish as well as his own tenants.

3967. Does any other proprietor in Shetland deal in fish in the

same way?-I think Mr. Grierson takes some part of his tenants'

fish, but only a part.

3968. Are there any others?-I think in Unst, although the

proprietors are not actually fish-curers, yet their tenants fish to

parties whom they appoint.,

3969. Do you refer to Major Cameron?-Yes; and Edmonstone

too. Spence & Co. are the principal fish-curers in Unst. They are

lessees of Major Cameron's property, and, I think they receive fish

from Mr. Edmonstone's tenants also.

. Is there anything further you wish to say with regard to the

fishings?-With reference to Burra, some years ago there was a

letter written to Mr. Mack, Edinburgh, who had the management

of the property for the Misses Scott, and a copy of it was sent to us

without a signature. It was a letter remarking, very strongly on the

management of Burra at the time; and as there may be something

said about it, I think it better to read it-

'COPY LETTER to Mr. Mack, dated the 5th April 1869.

'James S. Mack, Esq.

'MY DEAR SIR,-Having had occasion to visit Burra officially a

few days ago, it was suggested to me to bring under your notice

some of those grievances of which the people complain, so that on

any renewal of the lease of the Islands taking place, you might be

able stipulate more advantageously for the poor people.

'From the statements submitted to me, it would appear-

'1st, That every householder is bound to pay one pound sterling

annually for every son who, being a common fisherman, ships in

any Faroe-going fishing smack not belonging to the lessees or the

agent of the North Sea Company, otherwise he must remove from

the island or expel any such son from his home.

'2d, That every tenant is bound to uphold, at his own expense, his

house and offices, and whenever required to remove, to leave

them in a state of good repair without any indemnification.

'3d, That every fisherman is bound to deliver his fishings to the

lessees at such a price as they may be disposed to give. While

the price given is never <less> than one shilling per

hundredweight <below> the average paid for green fish in the

Islands; and in the case of herring, not less than five shillings

per cran below the market price is a common thing.

'4th, That all oysters dredged must be delivered to the lessees

at Scalloway, under the penalty of expulsion; from house and

land; while the price paid in <goods> is one shilling per hundred,

other merchants paying in money <two shillings and sixpence>

per hundred. To evade this obligation a regular system of

deception is practised most offensive to the moral sense, and, as a

consequence, few of the oysters go into the hands of the lessees.

'5th, And that every person on the Islands is bound not to sell any

article to a neighbour, under the penalty of instant expulsion

from the island. If, for example, you were living on the isle, any

fisherman who sold you a tusk or cod incurred the penalty of

expulsion. And as the system of barter is common in Shetland, if

any woman got in exchange for her hosiery tea or sugar or meal

from any merchant-as the lessees purchase no hosiery-she

exposes her family to the loss of house and land and expulsion

from the island if she is known to sell any of the goods she has

received in return for her handiwork to any neighbour, however

needful or anxious such neighbour may be to purchase for money

the article thus obtained.

'These, as represented to me, form some of the grounds of

complaint against the system adopted and enforced by the lessees,

and, as grievances, they are felt all the more keenly because of the

perfect contrast which is found to exist between the Burra people

and surrounding Islanders.

'In Trondra, under the hands of your lessees as factors, the people

can sell their labour and their goods to any buyer, so being

they pay the stipulated rent.

'In Hildesay, Luija, and Havera the tenants fish, cure, and sell

to the proprietor or others at the average price of the county,

paying their rents in money.

'The natural result of all this is the production of a feeling of

bondage most unfavourable in its influence towards the lessees

themselves, and most pernicious in its influence over the tenants

under them.

'Not only are the obligations under which the Burra people bend,

introducing discord into families, restraining the energies of the

fishermen, and tending to a deeply rooted aversion towards the

lessees and their service, but producing systems of chicanery and

deceit subversive of moral principle and destructive of all efforts

in the proper training of the young.

'Having had these matters forced upon my attention, I am

constrained to yield to the pressure, and submit them to your

consideration-notwithstanding my great personal respect for

the lessees-as requested, and that, in the hope that if you can

now or hereafter mitigate the evil under which the tenants groan,

in connection with the renewal of the lease, should such be

contemplated, you will cordially do so, and thus confer upon them

a lasting benefit.

'Before closing, I may add that a suggestion was made to submit

the case to the consideration of the Fishery Board; but, as the

constitution and functions of that board are unknown to me, I

have deferred until obtaining any suggestion you may be pleased

to make for the future guidance of the poor people who, through

me, now solicit your sympathy and aid.

'Having fulfilled my promise to write you, I have to express the

hope that this confidential communication may receive your

kind consideration, while any suggestion you may make for the

improvement of the circumstances of the people will be cordially

welcomed by.'

That letter was sent to us to report upon, and we made some notes

on it at the time, which I may read also-

'NOTES on a Letter of Complaint addressed to, Mr. Mack,

S.S.C.,

Edinburgh, dated 5th April 1869, as to the Management of the

Burra Islands under the present Tack.

'The writer of this letter, if he is stating honestly the reports that he

has heard on his visits to Burra, seems to have considered it quite

unnecessary to inquire whether they were true or false before

committing them to paper; and apparently from a desire to make

out a case of oppression, he has been ready to receive all that

could help to it without separating the chaff from the wheat.

'The first head is, that every tenant is bound to pay £1 per

annum for their sons who do not fish in vessels belonging to

the tacksmen, or those of the Fishery Company under their

management. In answer to this, it always been felt a great

hardship to pay rent year after year for old men who were deeply

indebted and earning little or nothing, but who had grown-up sons

living, at home in idleness all winter and going out of the Islands

to fish to strangers in summer. In order to get them to assist their

parents, intimation was given at the commencement of the tack

that such a charge would be made; but the result is, nothing has

been recovered from them, and several of the Lerwick fishing

vessels are manned up year after year with the best fishermen in

Burra, and their fathers remain hopelessly in debt. Perhaps Mr

Mack's correspondent would say, rather than impose such a

condition on the young men, we should roup up their fathers and

turn them out of the Islands as paupers, when the sons would be

compelled by law to assist them?

'The second charge is, that the tenants are bound to uphold their

houses at their own expense. This complaint, unlike the others, is

quite correct, but the obligation is not felt by the tenants to be very

oppressive. [Page 98] Had the proprietors to pay the expense the

case would be different, and this, added to the public burdens,

would pretty well exhaust the whole rents. Such things, however,

are never considered by would-be philanthropists; and if matters

are made easy for the tenants, landlords may starve. Burra is not

the only place in Shetland, or out of it, where tenants are bound to

uphold their own houses.

'Third, The tenants hold their farms on the express condition that

they shall deliver their fish to the factors; but it is quite untrue

that the price allowed 'is never <less> than one shilling per

hundredweight below the average price paid for green fish in the

Islands; and in the case of herring, not less than five shillings per

cran below the market price is a common thing.' It is so far from

the truth as scarcely to be worth denial; and if the author of this

statement had been desirous to get at facts, he could without

difficulty have discovered that his informant, was practising a

deception on him, and that the Burra people had not this evil to

groan under.

'The lessees have no hesitation in referring to the tenants,

themselves and to all other parties in the locality to whom the

circumstances are known. (See annexed note of the prices paid in

Burra and throughout Shetland for the last four years.) As to the

obligation on the tenants to deliver their fish to the factors-if they

were free to cure and sell as they chose, who would advance them,

with boats and fishing materials, and support their families during

the progress of the fishing? and would the proprietors get the rents

paid half-yearly as at present? or would they not rather find the

principal part of it standing as arrears in their books at the end of

the first year of freedom? And in the event of a short fishing or

bad crop (both frequent occurrences), without any one to assist

them till the return of better seasons, is it not evident, at least to

those who know about tenants in fishing districts, that the Burra

people would soon be little better than paupers?

'Take the last year as an instance, when the heavy debt due by

the tenants to the lessees was increased upwards of £200.

'Mr. Mack's correspondent should suggest a remedy for all these

evils, to be inserted in the next lease; or, as he seems to hint

that the Fishery Board may be induced to interfere and make

things straight now, it might be well to place the Islands under his

management for a year or two by way of trial. The lessees could

have no objections if the balances due to them were paid.

'The oyster fishing is the fourth grievance, and the statements in it

are as little in accordance with facts as the rest. A few years ago,

when oysters came to be asked after for export, the scaaps in

Burra being of limited extent, an attempt was made to preserve

them for old men and others in the quarter who were unable to

prosecute the spring fishings; but in the course of a year or two

people came from Scalloway and other places and carried them

away in boat-loads. Seeing this, the factors told the Burra folks as

far as possible to secure the oysters for themselves, and they have

since been selling them in large quantities here and there without

let or hindrance, and it is said the supply is now about exhausted.

The tack conveys right to the whole fishings of the islands; and

had the matter been of any importance, the lessees might have

interdicted strangers, and limited the fishing for the benefit of the

tenants as first intended; but this cause of offence seems to be set

at rest now for the remainder of the lease.