3192. How much is that per cut?-I think about 7d. We have paid
7d. a cut for it, and on weighing it out I have found there were 12
cuts to the ounce. A cut is 100 threads, and a reel is about a yard
long, or scarcely so much.
3193. There will be a greater number of cuts in a pound of fine
worsted than in a pound of coarse worsted?-Yes.
3194. So that the proportion between the price per [Page 71] cut
and the price per pound will differ very much?-Yes
3195. In your trade is there any quantity of goods sold for cash?-
Yes.
3196. Are these marked and sold at the same price as those which
you give in return for hosiery?-Yes; they are marked at the same
price, and generally sold at the same price. On rare occasions
there is a slight discount given for ready cash.
3197. How much is that discount?-I should say about 1s. per £1.
3198. Why is that not allowed when the settlement with
hosiery?-Because we consider that in our transactions throughout
the year we do not realize for our hosiery goods the full price
which we pay.
3199. Have you two shops?-Yes.
3200. In one of these is hosiery kept and bought?-In one of them
hosiery is kept; it is only in bought that shop now on very rare
occasions. When Mr. Linklater or I happen to be there, we may
buy something, and send the customer to the other shop to settle
for it.
3201. Then the buying of hosiery is only conducted in the drapery
shop?-The settlement for hosiery is only conducted in the hosiery
shop.
3202. As a rule, a person selling a shawl or veil would go to the
drapery shop?-Yes; and if Mr. Linklater or I was not there, she
would go to the other shop to see if we were there.
3203. How do you settle with them if the purchase is made in the
hosiery shop?-Generally one of us goes across with them, and on
other occasions we give a line to the other shop such as this: '12s.
R. L.,'-just the sum and the initials, and they go to the other
shop, where it is settled at once.
3204. That is in cases of purchase, and has nothing to do with your
knitters?-Nothing; unless in the case of the dresser, who has to
bring all the dressed goods to the other shop. She sometimes gets
a similar line; at other times she just tells the amount. Of course
we put every confidence in her; and whether she has a line or not,
she is settled with all the same.
3205. Do you exchange a large quantity of tea for hosiery and
knitted work?-Not a large quantity; only a small quantity.
3206. Was it larger formerly than it is now?-I don't think it.
3207. The principal dealing is in goods?-Yes; in goods. Of
course when people ask for tea, they are never refused it; but we
don't sell much.
3208. Do you give them tea for goods at the ordinary market price
that it is got at in the other grocery shops in town?-I have no idea
what their tea costs them at other places. One merchant does not
know what another merchant's goods are sold for.
3209. At what prices do you sell your teas?-Generally at 9d. and
10d. per quarter.
3210. Have you only two qualities?-Yes.
3211. Is it always sold in quarter pounds?-No; it is sometimes
sold in half ounces.
3212. It is just put up as the people ask for it?-Yes.
Lerwick, January 6, 1872, ROBERT SINCLAIR, recalled.
3213. Have you anything further to add to the evidence you
previously gave?-I produce a list of names of parties who have
sold goods to me, and they can be examined as to the prices they
have got for their goods, that the range of prices may be
ascertained. [Produces list.]
3214. I believe you also wish to explain something about the
number of your knitters?-Yes; I made a mistake about that. I
find from the index in our workers' book that the number is
upwards of 300. I believe, however, that a great number of the
knitters who appear in our books will also appear in the books of
other merchants. They take work from two or perhaps three, at the
same time; and consequently the aggregate number of knitters is
not represented by the number that is found collectively in the
books of the employers.
3215. You wish also to speak about Catherine Borthwick's
evidence. She said she had never got any money from you; that
she had asked you about two years ago for 1s,, when there was
about 5s. 6d. due to her; that you refused it; and that she had never
asked you for any since?-I have no evidence either to corroborate
or to disprove that statement. I have not the least recollection of
it; but I don't believe that it happened
3216. Is there anything in your books to contradict it?-Nothing.
3217. Then there is nothing for it but her statement, and your
statement on the other side?-Quite so.
3218. In a large business like yours there might be a cash
transaction at a time, apart from your books, which was settled for
there and then?-Yes, it might have been; but it is a very unlikely
thing that she asked me for 1s. in cash and I refused it unless I had
very good grounds for doing so. She was generally behind in my
books.
3219. But what she deponed to might have happened when she
was behind?-Yes; I think it was very seldom, until I settled up
with her, that she was not behind.
3220. In the work-book, I notice that dressing is occasionally
charged against you on the credit side?-That is in the case where
the knitter also dresses, and she is paid for that as well as for the
knitting. We sometimes included both in the same payment, but
not very often. Now we always separate them.
3221. When you were examined previously with regard to the cost
of the wool in a shawl made of English wool, were you speaking
of the price which you paid for the wool, or of the price at which
you would retail it?-With regard to English or south-country
wool, I may just repeat what I said before; that we really do very
little in it, especially for fine shawls. I never charged 30s., or
anything like it, for a shawl made of Pyrenees wool, because I did
not consider that it was real Shetland goods.
3222. Then you deal in the real Shetland goods?-Yes, mostly.
Occasionally, if I have to send a shawl of another kind to the
south, I state that it is not handspun wool-that it is not the real
Shetland wool.
3223. So that the great majority of your goods consists of Shetland
wool; and in estimating the cost of production of a shawl, you
estimated it at the price you paid for the wool?-Just so.
3224. And not at the retail price to a customer?-No; it was the
cash price meant. There is one exception-that is, in the mohair
falls-similar to those Mr. Anderson has been referring to, where,
as rule, we pay a higher rate for knitting than that mentioned.
These mohair falls are the only thing we deal in that is not
Shetland.
3225. That is, the grey and black falls?-Yes. We never buy black
wool; we always dye the falls after they are knitted.
3226. Are falls and veils the same thing?-We don't buy the
mohair black; we think we get a more uniform shade of colour
when we buy them in the piece.
3227. I understand you have two shops?-Yes.
3228. One of them is a shop where you only deal in drapery
goods?-Yes; where we only deal for cash.
3229. There are no hosiery dealings carried on there?-No.
3230. Are the same prices charged for the drapery goods in the two
shops?-There is a very small shade of difference on some things.
Some things are exactly the same in both; on others there is a
small difference. I should say that there is such a difference on
calicoes. There are several things we sell in that shop, such as
fancy goods and sewed articles, which are not kept in our hosiery
shop at all; but winceys and stuff goods, such as camlets and
satteens, and other things for dresses, are charged alike in both
shops, so far as I remember.
[Page 72]
3231. Is there any difference made in the price of the tea?-We
don't sell tea in the drapery shop. While on this subject I would
call attention to one thing that was stated in Mr. Walker's
evidence. He said that the merchants gave mostly flowers and
ribands, and things of that description in exchange for the hosiery;
while the fact is that flowers and ribands are just the kind of goods
which I would avoid giving, if I could, because we do not realize a
profit on them. In our cash shop we never have flowers or ribands,
unless when we are obliged to have them for the accommodation
of our customers; and we would rather want them. I was four
years in the trade, so far as I recollect, before I had any flowers or
ribands in stock at all, because I knew from former experience
they were a thing which did not pay.
3232. What is the reason why these things do not pay?-They may
pay some people in the south, who charge a higher rate for them;
but we do not charge so high for them as in the south.
3233. How are you obliged to have them now?-Because the
people will have them, and they have got into the habit of buying
them at the ordinary rates. An ordinary retail profit put on any of
these things won't pay us, because so many of the flowers are lost,
crushed, or destroyed; and sometimes I have seen us have to throw
a box of them from the pier. Another thing is that ribands go out
of fashion. There are boxes of ribands standing in my shop, which
I would sell for one-fourth of the cash I paid for them.
3234. Do you not keep these, goods because you find it necessary
to have them in order to induce people to come to your shop with
their hosiery goods?-By no means. They come without any
inducement of that kind.
3235. But they want them when they are selling their hosiery?-
We could do without them, for that part of it. There are many
customers who come for them, as well as hosiery customers.
When we want a particular article of hosiery, and have an order for
it, we can arrange, and often do arrange, to buy it for cash; and the
people may go and buy their goods where they like. That is
frequently done when we have a standing order for an article; so
that we do not keep these things as baits for the public at all.
3236. You buy a good deal of wool from the north isles?-Yes.
3237. I think you said you did not send any of it south?-No; I
don't require to send it south.
3238. Are you aware of Shetland wool being bought and sent south
in considerable quantities?-I was told by a south-country dealer
that he had bought a considerable quantity of wool from Shetland;
but that is all. I know about it. I have no personal knowledge of
the thing being done.
3239. You don't understand that it is bought up by the proprietors
or factors or middle-men?-I never heard anything about that,
except from Mr. Walker's evidence; and it is a dream.
3240. You don't buy it yourself for any purpose of that kind?-No;
there are none of the merchants who do that. There is one thing in
my previous evidence which I wish to correct: I thought of it after I
left here. In calculating the value of a 30s. shawl, I put down 14s.
as the value of the knitting; but in that case I did not make the
deduction I should have made for the percentage of the goods paid
for it, which would increase the real profit to the dealer. As,
however, in a great many instances, when we require a fine shawl
of that kind, a good deal of it is paid in cash, I think that, taking it
as a general thing, not more than 1s., 6d. would fall to be deducted
for that from the figure I gave. In some cases the price is paid
wholly in cash, especially for things of that kind. That sum of 1s.
6d. would therefore fall to be added to the profit if the article was
paid in goods; but if paid in cash, then my statement was quite
correct.
3241. Did you hear the evidence which has been given by Mr.
Anderson with regard to the cost of making shawls and veils?-I
did.
3242. It was mostly veils he spoke to, and the selling price of
them: do you think his calculations that on subject were generally
near the truth?-I believe they were perfectly correct, so far as my
own experience goes, but I may say that my experience in that
matter has been somewhat different from his, inasmuch, as for that
class of wool, and knitting. I often pay a higher rate to good
knitters. There is this; however, to be said in my case, that I do not
have so many job lots, which compensates to a great extent for the
difference; and another thing is that I do not charge such a high
price for them as he stated, when sending them south. If I am
selling to a private individual, I may but it is very seldom that I sell
to private individuals.
3243. That may be accounted for in this way: that you sell more to
wholesale customers, while I suppose Mr. Linklater's business in
Edinburgh is really a retail business?-Yes; he has a very
extensive establishment in Edinburgh.
3244. His own establishment there is a retail one; so that the prices
Mr. Anderson was speaking of were probably retail prices?-I
suppose so. I think if the one was balanced with the other, there
would be found to be very little difference between Mr. Linklater's
experience in the trade and my own. I wish it to be distinctly
understood, that when I said we got no profit, on the goods except
what we realized on the first purchase, I meant that we do not
realize indeed we often don't realize so much-as the price we
paid for them in goods. In particular cases, we may charge a shade
over what the thing has actually cost us; but there are a great many
articles for which we must charge less, and that much more than
balances the other. If our customers in the south were private
individuals or consumers, we could very easily pay the same rate
in cash that we now pay in goods, but as we have to sell to retail
dealers in a wholesale way, we cannot afford to do that, unless we
were to rob the retail dealer of his profit altogether.
Lerwick, January 6, 1872, ISABELLA SINCLAIR, examined.
3245. You are the daughter of Mr. Sinclair, who has just been
examined, and one of the assistants in shop?-Yes.
3246. Are you sometimes concerned in the purchase of hosiery
goods?-No; I never purchase hosiery.
3247. You only sell in the shop?-Yes.
3248. Is it the case that the lines which are given out in your
father's shop are generally brought back by the same parties to
whom they are issued? Do you know who the lines are given
to?-No; we keep no note of their names.
3249. But do you happen to know them?-I know several cases in
which the lines have been brought back by the same parties to
whom they were given out; and there have been other cases where
I know that they have been given by that party to another party,
just the same as sending them an errand.
3250. Do you know of any cases in which they have been brought
back by people with whom they have been exchanged for money
or for goods which could not be got in your father's shop?-No;
they would never mention such a thing to us.
3251. And no such case has come within your knowledge?-I have
heard vague reports of such things being done but nothing that I
could, state positively. I know that if they had come to the shop
and asked money for their lines, they would have got 10d., in the
shilling for them from my father.
3252. Have you ever been asked for that?-Very seldom. There
was one girl who came in a few nights ago and offered me a veil.
My father happened to be in the back shop, and I went to him with
it, and he said he would give her 1s. 4d. for the veil. I came back
to the girl, and she said, 'Would I give her 1s. 4d. in money?' I
said, 'Certainly not,' because the veil season was over; and also I
did think that money [Page 73] and goods were the same thing. I
said I would give here 1s. 1d. in money, and she asked if I would
give her 1s. 2d. I said, 'No;' I would only give her 1s. 1d. and she
took that and went away.
3253. Is that a usual sort of transaction?-No. I never heard them
asking for money before; at least not asking for it in that way. I
have heard them wanting to get the same price in money that they
got in goods.
3254. Is that a common thing for them to ask?-Well, it is.
3255. Do you know anything about the work-book?-Yes.
3256. Do you sometimes settle the accounts in that book with the
knitters?-Occasionally, when the clerk is out.
3257. Are the items in the account always read over to the
knitter?-Yes.
3258. Is there any receipt or acknowledgment given when an
account is settled?-Occasionally they take a line for the amount
if the balance is in their favour, because sometimes the shop is so
crowded that we don't have time to turn up the account.
3259. In that case the account is marked as settled in full?-Yes.
3260. In other cases the balance is carried to the next account
simply, without any line?-Yes.
3261. Is the work-book kept in the shop, or in the office at the
back?-We used to keep it in the shop, but they came and
bothered us at the time we were writing, and we thought it better
to keep it in the office. But we take the book into the front shop,
and read the items over to them when we settle.
3262. If a woman comes with work and gets it entered in the
work-book, and then wants a certain quantity of goods, do you
communicate with the clerk at the back before giving out the
goods, in order to see the state of her account?-Yes.
3263. Who enters the goods in the book?-The clerk, when he is
present; or if he is not present, then any of us who retail the goods
may enter them.
3264. Do you go into the back shop for the purpose of doing
that?-I take down a note of the goods they get on a slip of paper.
3265. And the contents of that slip are entered into the book?-
Yes, by the clerk.
3266. Then there may be a great number of these slips to enter in
the course of the day?-They are handed to the clerk at once. If
he is busy about anything else, any of us may take the book and
mark the goods in ourselves.
3267. Are these slips preserved?-No.
3268. They are just destroyed when entered?-Yes. I have
occasionally given them to the people themselves, if it was a case
where they were getting goods for another person. If they had
been sent an errand by any one, I have handed them their slip, in
order to show the person who sent them what they had got.
3269. Is there anything else you wish to say?-I wish to say that in
a very short time the Shetland wool will be entirely destroyed,
because the breed of sheep is wearing out. The Cheviot wool is
taking its place.
3270. You mean that the introduction of Cheviot sheep into
Shetland is entirely destroying the breed of native sheep?-Yes.
3271. Do you do a good deal in purchasing wool from the Shetland
people?-No; I don't purchase but I know the quality of it.
3272. Do you find from the qualities that pass through your hands,
that the Shetland wool is not so good as it used to be?-Yes; it is
deteriorating very much.
3273. You find it is becoming more like what you buy from the
south?-Yes; there is a great difference upon it. There is more
elasticity in the Shetland wool than in the Pyrenees wool.
3274. Do you buy the wool yourself?-No; it is spun and knitted
by people.
3275. Do they bring it to you, or have you people who gather it in
for you?-They bring it to us to the shop: and I have heard the
people very often making complaints that they could not get wool
at all from any source.
3276. How do you buy wool?-We do not buy wool at all.
3277. Do you buy Shetland worsted?-Yes.
3278. Do the spinners bring it to your shop and sell it?-Very
seldom. We buy it mostly from merchants in the country-in Unst
and Fetlar. When a spinner comes in with worsted, she generally
wants ready money for it.
3279. When a woman comes with it or sends it, how is she
paid?-She gets anything she asks for-either goods at wholesale
prices, or the cash.
3280. When you buy worsted and give goods for it, you give them
at the wholesale prices it is the same as cash?-Yes.
3281. Are there many merchants who deal in that kind of way?-I
suppose most of them do so in the places where it is made. It is
mostly in the north isles. Occasionally, I think, they do a little in
Dunrossness.
3282. Is it bought in by a shopkeeper at Dunrossness?-I don't
know how it is done. I simply know that there are some goods
made there.
3283. But where do you get your worsted from?-We don't get
worsted from any merchant in Dunrossness. I was merely stating
where the worsted was spun.
3284. Do you get Shetland worsted from merchants in the north of
the mainland as well as in the north isles?-Yes.
3285. Do you get any from Mossbank or Lunna?-No.
3286. Do you get any from Northmavine?-I think we get a little
worsted from a merchant there. The books will show where it is
got.
3287. Do you know about the prices paid for goods bought in the
shop? I don't mean goods knitted you, but goods bought?-Yes.
3288. What do you generally pay for a dozen of men's hose?-I
think about 20s.-sometimes more, but very seldom less. That is a
thing very seldom sold now, except knickerbocker stockings.
3289. I see in an account five white lace shawls sold each. What
would be the price of these if bought over the counter?-8s. in
goods.
3290. If paid in cash, what would the price be?-About is 9d., I
should say.
3291. Do you buy many of them for cash?-We sometimes buy
the larger things for cash. I have been in the shop when large
shawls were paid for in that way.
3292. In the same account I see twelve hap-shawls at 11s. 6d.:
what would these be bought for across the counter?-It is very
likely that 11s. 6d. would be paid for them in goods.
3293. In this account I see one hap-shawl entered at 14s., and
then at 13s.: what does that mean?-It means that 14s., was paid
for it, and it was sold for 13s. Perhaps it may have been slightly
ill-coloured.
3294. In the wholesale trade list which has been given in, I see
white, brown, and grey shawls, natural colours, charged 8s. 6d. to
18s.: do you know, from what you see in the shop, the prices at
which these are generally bought over the counter?-They are just
bought at the same prices at which they are invoiced, and which
are put down there.
3295. When a shawl is brought to the shop and paid for in goods,
is it ticketed for the south market?-Yes; the fine shawls are
ticketed.
3296. Wrap or winter shawls, 8s. 6d.: would these be ticketed?-
No.
3297. Why?-Because my father knows the prices so well; they
are sold by measure.
3298. The prices at which they are charged do not depend so much
on fancy?-No.
3299. Then the prices of these shawls are fixed afterwards?-Yes.
3300. How do you know that the prices which are charged for
these shawls are the same as have been paid for them over the
counter?-Because I have seen haps sold at the counter for 8s. 6d.;
and afterwards, [Page 74] when they were ready for the market,
they were charged at the same, or nearly the same, price.
3301. Don't you sometimes see them charged at a higher price?-I
cannot say exactly, because I do not always notice what the prices
are; but I know that I have sometimes seen the same prices
charged. I have noticed that particularly in haps.
3302. There are grey and brown long shawls, 20s. to 24s. are these
also haps?-Yes.
3303. Are they generally bought at from 20s. to 24s.?-Yes.
3304. And sold at the same prices?-Yes, I have noticed that.
3305. You have nothing to do with the pricing of them yourself?-
Nothing at all. I merely see the tickets, and recognise the article.
Perhaps there was something particular about it which led me to
recognise it.
3306. How often has that happened?-I could not say.
3307. Has it happened a dozen times?-It has surely happened
more than a dozen times. That is a very small number.
Lerwick, January 6, 1872, JOHN JAMES BRUCE, examined.
3308. Are you a shopman to Mr. Sinclair?-Yes.
3309. You are not the bookkeeper?-No.
3310. Do you know the prices at which hosiery goods are bought
across the counter?-Yes.
3311. Do you also know the prices at which these same goods are
invoiced to the southern market?-Yes.
3312. Is the price at which they are bought and the price at which
they are sold the same, or different, on the ordinary run of
goods?-They are charged to the wholesale or the retail dealer in
the south at the same price as we pay for them in goods at the
counter.
3313. Is that the invariable practice?-Yes.
3314. The goods, I understand, are not all ticketed when
bought?-Fine shawls are generally ticketed, but haps and other
goods are judged of afterwards, when being looked out in order to
be sent to the market in the south.
3315. In the case of fine shawls, is it within your own knowledge
that the ticket put upon them at the time of the purchase bears
generally the same price as has been paid for them in goods?-
Yes. Mr Sinclair puts up these goods himself for the market, and
the ticket is put on them at the time of the purchase, in order to
bring to his remembrance, when he is putting them up for the
market, the price he paid for them at the counter.
3316. In all these cases there is only one valuation of the shawl,
and it is made to the person who brings it to you for sale?-Yes.
3317. The ticket is put on them, and the invoice price is the same
as the price on the ticket?-Yes, the same.
3318. Do you make no allowance, in that case, for the loss upon
the dressing or the dyeing of the shawl?-When a girl comes with
an article that is ill-coloured, she may ask a certain price for it;
but we state that we cannot give her that price, owing to it being
ill-coloured, and that it requires to be dyed. In that case we deduct
the price of the dyeing from the price which is paid to her.
3319. Is that deduction made before the price is put on the
ticket?-We don't ticket it then. It has to be sent south to the
dyer, and to come back and to be dressed here.
3320. In that case you must make an estimate, because you cannot
identify the shawl afterwards?-No; we just leave it to our own
judgment afterwards.
3321. Then it appears that you don't invoice the goods at exactly
the same price that is paid in every case?-We don't invoice them
at the same price if we are selling them to private individuals; but
when we sell them to a retail dealer, we invoice them at the same
price.
3322. But you have said that very often you require to send them
to the dyer, in which case they are not ticketed at the time you
purchase them?-No; but the retail dealer must pay for the dyeing.
3323. But the goods are not always ticketed at the time they are
bought?-No; not always. I did not say they were.
3324. Are they ticketed, as a rule, when they are bought?-The
finest of the lace goods or shawls are ticketed.
3325. And veils?-No, not veils; but the fine lace shawls are
generally ticketed.
3326. How is the invoice price of the veils fixed, if they are not
ticketed when they are bought?-We can easily judge of the
quality of a veil by looking at it, and we can tell what we paid for
it. Of course, in fixing the price, we always refer to what we paid
for it, and we know that at a glance by the quality of the work and
the worsted.
3327. You cannot tell what you paid for a particular lot of veils,
because you cannot identify them?-No.
3328. But you know by the quality what they likely to have cost
you?-Yes.
3329. Is the price at which veils are sold generally the same as that
at which they are bought?-Yes. Veils which have been bought
across the counter are charged at the same price that we consider
we paid for them.
3330. Are many of the shawls dyed?-A good many. Some are
dyed on account of being ill-coloured. Perhaps we don't discover,
at the time when they are taken in over the counter, that they are
ill-coloured; we only find that out afterwards, and then we have to
dye them. Sometimes we dye shawls, not on account of them
being ill-coloured, but because we require them of a particular
colour.
3331. Is that done with fine shawls?-Both with fine and coarse.
3332. But not with haps?-Sometimes with haps too. We dye
haps scarlet and black.
3333. Therefore there is a considerable quantity of the shawl
goods which it is not possible to ticket at the time when they are
bought, because they have afterwards to be dyed-Yes, a
considerable quantity.
3334. And, in that case, the price is fixed afterwards, according to
your own notions of the quality?-Yes.
3335. Who fixes the invoice price of shawls when they are sent out
finally to the market?-Mr. Sinclair himself. He takes that
department.
3336. Do you know whether, in doing so, he takes into account the
market price in the south?-Although he makes up the articles,
they pass through my hands in packing, and I see the tickets. They
generally have a ticket on them, in order to guide the clerk in
checking them and entering them into the book.
3337. But you don't know the principle on which Mr. Sinclair
values these shawls when they are invoiced?-He just judges of
them in the same manner as he did at first when taking them in
over the counter.
3338. What proportion of the shawls may be revalued in that
way?-Will it be one-third or one-half of them?-They are all
re-valued in that way, unless those which are ticketed.
3339. But what proportion of them are not ticketed at first?-I
could not say.
3340. Is it not the case that very few of them are ticketed at
first?-There are only the finest lace shawls that are ticketed at
first.
3341. Therefore the bulk of the shawls are not ticketed then, but
valued afterwards?-Yes; they are valued in the same manner at
that time as they were when taken in at the counter.
3342. Are you in a position to state whether or not that valuation
which is made when they are sent out exceeds the valuation which
is put upon them when they are purchased for the market?-I have
reason to believe from Mr. Sinclair's long experience in the trade,
that he will know to a fraction what he paid for the [Page 75]
shawls; and I can swear that they are not charged by him at a
higher price than the price which was paid for them in goods at
the counter. Of course deductions are made afterwards by the
wholesale dealer, if he thinks the article is inferior.
3343. Do you issue the lines which are given out in the shop?-I
very often issue lines. I perhaps issue more of them than any one
else.
3344. Do you also serve customers who have lines?-Yes.
3345. Is it consistent with your knowledge, that the lines are
generally brought back by the parties to whom they were originally
given out?-They are generally brought back by the owner of the
hosiery.
3346. Is it the party herself to whom the line has been given that
usually brings it back?-Very often but sometimes they may send
a line in by another party as a messenger.
3347. How do you know that?-Sometimes a line may be brought
back an hour after it has been given out, by a different party, and
they will perhaps make remark in order to let me know that they
have been sent by the party to whom the line belonged.
3348. Are you aware that the lines are exchanged or sold by the
parties to whom they were first issued?-I have heard something
to that effect this very morning.
3349. But you have not known of that in your own experience?-
No. It has not come under my notice, unless from report.
3350. Does the party bringing one of these lines for goods ever tell
you that she had purchased it?-No. I don't remember an instance
of that kind.
3351. You don't remember any particular case in which there had
been a sale of the line for cash, or for other goods which you don't
supply?-I say there was an instance this morning which came
under my notice, in which a line had been exchanged, and in
which the party had got cash for the line.
3352. From whom had the cash been got?-I could give the name
of the party to whom the line belonged, but not of the other party.
3353. Was that an instance of a line being brought back by a
person to whom it had not been originally issued?-No; it was
merely a party in the shop who said that some time ago-she did
not state the time-she had a line which she had given to another
person, and had got cash for it. But at the same time she said that
she did not ask cash from Mr. Sinclair, or she might have got it.
She felt diffident in asking for cash, because she had brought her
hosiery to the shop on the understanding that she was to take
goods for it. The receipt she got had not been a cash transaction.
3354. Is that the only time, in your experience in the shop, that you
have heard of these lines being exchanged for cash, or for other
goods than those which Mr. Sinclair sells?-It is the only one I can
point to in particular.
3355. But do you swear that you don't know that lines have been
so exchanged?-No, I would not swear that. I said I have heard a
vague report that on several occasions they have been exchanged,
but I could not point to any other case than the one I have
mentioned.
3356. Is cash ever given in your shop upon lines?-Yes, often. It
is given on lines, even when the hosiery article has been taken in
over the counter with understanding that the party was to take all
goods for it.
3357. The lines bear that their value is to be given in goods but
notwithstanding that you know that cash had been given on
them?-Yes.
3358. How often?-I could not say how often, but I can point to
one woman in particular who has got cash in that way. She stated
that she was in need of it, and she got it even when the hosiery
article was taken with the understanding that only goods were to
be given for it.
3359. In that case, was any discount taken for cash?-No.
3360. Was the whole amount given in cash?-Yes, all cash. She
said she required it to buy meal with.
3361. What was the amount of that line?-It was the case with that
woman on several lines, not on one line in particular.
3362. Who was the woman?-I should prefer to give her name in
private.
3363. What proportion of her line was given in cash?-I could not
say what proportion, but she got the proportion she asked for. Of
course, when giving money in that way, we considered it was a
deduction from the profit on our goods.
3364. Then it was given as a sort of charity?-It might be
considered as a sort of favour, because it was a deduction from our
profit.
3365. Do you say that it was really a deduction from the profit?-
Yes.
3366. But you said before, and I have been informed by other
parties, that there is no profit at all upon the hosiery goods; so that
if you pay the lines in cash, you take away all the profit you make
upon a purchase of hosiery?-Yes; that is only if we charge the
wholesale dealer the same price.
3367. But you say that, practically, the wholesale dealer is charged
the same price?-Yes. Even should we pay the same price in cash
as we get from the wholesale dealer, if we were sure that this party
would come back to the shop with the money which we gave her
and take our goods, it would not be a loss; but if she did not come
back, then there would be a loss.
3368. In other words, the effect of the lines and of paying in goods
is, that these sellers of hosiery are bound to take their goods at
your shop, instead of another; and therein lies your profit?-Of
course. We just have our profit on the goods. We have two sales
for one profit.
3369. But you say that although you suspected, and had heard from
rumour, that these lines were commonly exchanged for money or
for other goods than you dealt in, you have known of no particular
case except the one you have mentioned?-No.
3370. Have you known of cases where goods which had been
delivered in return for hosiery had been exchanged by the women
for other goods or for cash?-I could not point out any case.
3371. Did you ever hear of any case?-I could not point out any
one.
3372. But did you ever hear of any such case?-I have heard that
rumour, the same as I heard of the other thing.
3373. Have the women told you that themselves?-Yes; just
speaking of it among the crowd in the shop.
3374. You don't remember the names of these women?-I do not.
3375. Have you any doubt at all that that is done?-No; I am led to
believe that it is done.
3376. How are you led to believe that?-Because I have heard the
vague report so often-not once, but several times.
3377. Does that report lead you to believe that it is done to any
great extent?-I could not say to what extent.
3378. How does report speak of it?-Just that it was not
uncommon. The report did not say that it was very common, but
only that it was common.
3379. Do you swear that you cannot remember the names of any
women who have done it?-I do.
3380. Or who have spoken to you about it?-None, except the one
who has said it to-day
3381. Or that you have heard speak of it?-No.
3382. In the journal, or work-book, I see that there is sometimes a
line entered. I do not mean merely that the balance is struck, but
sometimes there are entries, 'To lines.' Can you explain that?-
Sometimes the party that the account belongs to will have to pay
another party so much, and she gives us instructions to mark a line
for a certain amount in the book, and then give her that line to give
to the other party, who comes back with it and gets the amount in
goods.
3383. Then the line is granted to your knitters for the purpose of
paying their debt to another?-Yes.
3384. Is that frequently done?-Not very often. [Page 76] It has
happened occasionally. I have entered such lines myself in the
work-book; and sometimes, although not very often, when looking
over their account, instead of taking the balance that may be in
their favour, they will take a line for it. I may say, however, that
where hosiery has been taken from a person on the understanding
that they were to take all goods for it, I have never known a case
where cash was refused to them when they said they were in need
of it.
3385. That just amounts to this: that Mr. Sinclair, in a case of that
kind, throws away the whole of his profit?-Yes; it shows a
charitable spirit in Mr. Sinclair.
3386. In the case of Mary Ann Sinclair, there was an entry in the
journal of cash paid to William Smith for meal: can you explain
how that was done?-I heard Mr. Sinclair's examination about
that. His attention was directed to an entry of 'Cash, for meal,' he
was asked why that was not entered merely cash. I cannot say
whether the entry was in my writing or not, but I remember that
girl coming into the shop and asking for cash, and she made a
remark that it was for meal. I think that the entry is in my hand,
and that I just put it down as she said it.
3387. The giving of that cash was a deviation from your usual
practice?-Yes, these parties depend chiefly upon the knitting, and
they get a larger supply of cash than the general workers. There
are not many cases, I don't think we have a similar case in the
town, where the parties depend entirely on their knitting. Our
knitters belong chiefly to the country, and the knitting is with them
an extra piece of work.
3388. In the same witness's account there was another entry of
'Cash, for meal:' do you explain that in the same way?-Yes; but
of course they were at liberty to go to any shop for it they liked.
3389. Does the entry, 'To William Smith, for meal,' mean that you
paid the money directly to Smith?-Sometimes we did. His
account would show that the amount which he received from us
was just the same as had been marked to the women. In his
account he would state that he had given out so much meal to
them.
3390. Has Mr. Smith an account with R. Sinclair & Co.?-
Sometimes there was an account between them at that time.
3391. Was that account for supplies to work-people?-Sometimes
it would be for such supplies along with Mr. Sinclair's personal
account.
3392. Does Mr. Smith make frequent supplies to Mr. Sinclair's
work-people?-No; it has not been done very frequently.
3393. To what class of work-people are these supplies made?-
Chiefly to the party who has been already examined, Mary Ann
Sinclair, and that has not been done of late. These girls have not
been so dependent on their knitting lately, because they have got
help from another quarter.
3394. Then this payment for meal, and that payment to W. Smith
for meal, were really so much taken out of Mr. Sinclair's profit?-
I think so, because their knitting was estimated at the goods price,
not at the cash price.
3395. I see that in the same account there are other two entries of
purchases of meal?-Yes, that was merely put down because the
parties said they wanted meal, and for a considerable time they
had just a weekly allowance.
3396. The entries of these two purchases of meal are really
equivalent to entries of cash?-Yes; sometimes when it is said,
'Cash, for meal,' they got the cash into their own hands.
3397. And sometimes it was entered in the account with Mr.
Smith?-Yes.
3398. Was that account of Mr. Smith's a personal account of Mr.
Sinclair's?-I suppose it was just made out as an account of R.
Sinclair & Co.
3399. What was the nature of the dealings with Smith? Have you
seen his account?-I cannot remember. I saw the account when it
was handed in, but I cannot say what was in it.
3400. You don't know about it personally?-No.
3401. Is there anything you wish to state on the subject of this
inquiry?-I wish to state that, supposing a new system of cash
payments is adopted, there will be a change, which I don't think
will be altogether in favour of the worker. No doubt it would be to
some extent.
3402. What difference would there be?-I shall suppose that a
woman comes in with a shawl, say to-day, while the present
system exists, and gets 20s. in goods. She wants grey cotton, and
she will get forty yards of it for her 20s. To-morrow she comes in,
and the system is changed, and she must be paid in cash. Well,
she gets the cash, and she requires the same kind of goods, but she
thinks there is no need for going out of the shop, as the goods here
are as cheap as anywhere else. Then she will get for her cash the
usual discount of 5 per cent. That would be 16s. 91/2d., and she
would only have then about thirty-three yards of cotton instead of
forty yards.
3403. But in the case you have supposed, would not the cotton be
sold cheaper, because the merchant would not require to put all his
profit on the cotton, as you say he does now, but he would also put
a profit on the hosiery; and therefore he could afford to sell the
cotton at a smaller profit?-The merchant would not have two
profits on his hosiery.
3404. If he was buying for cash, he would?-No, it would merely
be embarking his capital a second time.
3405. If he were buying the shawl for 16s. in cash, would he not
sell it for 20s., as he does just now?-Yes; he would embark that
cash again.
3406. That allows a profit of 4s. upon the hosiery, perhaps under
deductions for certain contingencies; but it certainly allows a
profit which on your own statement, he does not have now.
According to your own statement, there is no profit on the hosiery
now, because it is bought for the same price in goods as it is sold
for; but if he were paying 16s. in cash for it, there would then be a
profit upon the hosiery of 3s. or 4s. Now, would not the fact that a
profit is taken upon the hosiery enable him to sell his cotton goods
with a somewhat less margin of profit than he does just now?-It
might.
3407. Besides, the case which you have put just now implies that
the woman wants something which Mr. Sinclair has in his shop?-
Yes.
3408. It does not allow at all for a case in which she wants
something different and in order to get which she might perhaps
have to part with the goods at a loss?-Viewing it in the light I
have stated would perhaps be a disadvantage to the knitter; but
there would certainly be an advantage to her, as she would have
cash with which to go and buy groceries or other things wherever
she wanted,
3409. Then that would be an advantage?-It would be an
advantage; but another disadvantage to her might be, that the
merchant would not take her goods at all unless he actually wanted
them and he had orders for them, and unless they were of good
quality. There would thus be only one advantage against two
disadvantages.
3410. But if one merchant did not take her goods, another would,
if they were worth buying at all?-Perhaps he might; but I was
only speaking about how the thing might act if such a system were
introduced. There might be a second advantage, in this way: that
more encouragement might be given to the trade in the south, as
the cash system might be a means of producing better articles.
The knitters might be induced to bestow more pains on the
manufacture of their goods and then there would not be periods
when the market was in a dead, dull kind of state, as it sometimes
is now.
3411. Is it ever in a dead, dull kind of state?-Yes, at certain
seasons it is.
3412. Is there ever a time when you refuse to take Shetland
goods?-Yes; at this very season we cannot buy veils at all,
because we have no market for them. The market is blocked up
entirely. But if the manufacture was improved, and the goods
were somewhat [Page 77] better than they are now, there might be
a regular flow of goods into the market.
Lerwick, January 6, 1872, ROBERT SINCLAIR, recalled.
3413. Is there anything further you wish to say?-With regard to
Mr. Bruce's evidence as to the account with Smith, I think he is
mistaken in saying that there is any entry of that meal in any of
Smith's accounts. I remember only one case where Miss Sinclair
got her meal from Smith, and I went myself, either that day or the
following day, to him with the money. That is the only case I
know of; and I am almost sure there is no such thing as meal
supplied to her entered in any contra account of Mr. Smith,
because we paid the meal in cash at once. I know of no other
person being supplied by Mr. Smith except her. Another thing is
with regard to the number of shawls that are dyed. Mr. Bruce does
not seem to recollect that the number of shawls dyed bears a very
small proportion to the number of shawls we sell. It is only a
fraction of them that are dyed. I don't think there is one out of
eighty which requires to be dyed for selling south. With regard to
the valuation of the shawls, the fact is, that although sometimes it
happens that we detect a fault in the goods when we are buying
them, and make a deduction for that from the price, yet in the
majority of cases the faults are only detected after the goods are
bought, and no deduction for that can be made from the price
which we pay to the knitters. In all such cases we have to dye
them for nothing.
3414. Do you mean that the fault is detected after the shawls are
bought from you?-Not after they are bought from us, but after we
have bought them; and consequently we have to dye them. Then
when they are dyed, they very often, indeed generally, do not bring
more than they would have brought if they had been white; but
that is such a trifling thing, that it is not worth speaking about.
Lerwick, January 6, 1872, Mrs. ANN EUNSON, examined.
3415. You live in Lerwick?-Yes.
3416. You have come forward voluntarily to make a statement?-
Yes.
3417. Nobody has sent you here?-No.
3418. Have you knitted for a long time to Mr. Linklater?-Yes, for
a long time; I don't remember how long.
3419. What have you made?-Little hap-shawls.
3420. How have you been paid for them?-I have been well paid
for them, according to what I sought.
3421. Did you get money or goods?-When I sought money I got
it; but when I required anything which he had, I thought it was my
duty to take it from him, and not from another. He always gave
me a little money when I asked it.
3422. How much would you get at a time?-I might not ask above
6d. at a time, but I would get it.
3423. How much would you make in a week by knitting?-It was
just as I had time to sit at it.
3424. Did you do a good deal at it?-Not a great deal I made a
good many haps for myself when I could. I am a widow. I had
seven children, who are all dead, and I have supported myself
entirely by my work.
3425. Have you supported yourself entirely by knitting?-Yes. I
had no other work, except that of going for peats, or anything else
I had to do.
3426. Were these your own peats?-Yes.
3427. Therefore you had no other means except by knitting?-No;
except that for some time back I have had 1s. a week from the
parochial board.
3428. Before you got that, did you support yourself entirely by
knitting?-Yes; only at times I have got some things from friends.
3429. Did you get your meal and provisions from the proceeds of
your knitting?-Yes.
3430. How did you manage that, when you were paid mostly in
goods?-Often, when I had a little time, I made small shawls for
myself; and when travelling merchants came to town, they would
take my shawls and sell them for me for a little money.
3431. Did you do that because it was not the custom to give money
for such things at the merchants' shops?-It was not the usual
thing always to give money at the merchants shops. If they had
given it, I might not have given my shawls to these travelling
merchants,
3432. If you had got money from the merchants shops, you would
have been as ready to sell your shawls to them as to these
strangers?-Yes; but I sold some haps to Mr. Linklater, and got
much the same from him as I got from them.
3433., Only you got it in goods?-Yes; but if had sought a little
money, I would have got it.
3434. What was the price of the hap-shawls which you made?-I
have got as high as 3s. and 4s. for them. I don't make the fine
knitting.
3435. Do you ever make hose or stockings?-Yes.
3436. What do you get for them?-I don't make many stockings; I
think I am better paid by making these little haps.
3437. Do you take any lodgers?-I don't take any now. I am in
the Widows' Asylum; but before I went there, I took one or two.
3438. Did these lodgers help you in your living?-Yes, a little.
3439. Then you would get money in that way with which to
purchase provisions?-Yes; but I could not get so much knitting
made when I had lodgers.
3440. But the money you got from them would help you to buy
meal and bread, and what you wanted to live upon?-No; I did not
have above 6d. a week from my lodgers, and sometimes it was 1s.;
but I got through with it, and now it is come to a conclusion.
3441. How old are you?-I think I am about seventy-two.
3442. You are still knitting a little?-Yes; my fingers are as clever
as can be yet.
3448. You don't get money for your knitting now?-I get money
from Mr. Linklater when I ask it.
3444. How often do you ask it?-I don't like to trouble him too
much, but I know that he would give me what I sought; and many
a time I have got it. He often supplied me when I required it, and
when I had nothing in his hands to get.
Lerwick, January 6, 1872, JOHN JAMES BRUCE, recalled.
3445. I understand you wish to make some correction on your
former evidence?-Yes; I find I made a mistake. On going back
to the shop after giving my evidence, I found the same girl there
whom I mentioned before, and I spoke to her about what I had said
here. She said it was not a line that she had exchanged. She has
an account in the book, and she had got a bonnet, and had given it
to the other party. Of course it was to the same effect as if she had
given a line. She had got goods from us, and had given them to
another person for cash.
3446. Was all the rest of your statement correct?-Yes.
3447. Have you anything to say with regard to the proportion of
goods which are re-dyed about which Mr. Sinclair made some
explanation?-What I meant to say was, that all the goods not
ticketed are re-valued, and that some of them are dyed,-these, of
course, not being re-valued until they come back from the dyer.
Only the finer qualities of goods are ticketed at the time they are
taken from the customer.
[Page 78]
3448. So that the larger proportion of goods are, in point of fact,
re-valued?-Yes. By being re-valued, I mean that they are judged
of again in the same way that they were judged of, on being taken
from the customer. I don't mean to say that a different price is put
upon the article; it may be the same price.
Lerwick, January 6, 1872, ROBERT SINCLAIR, recalled.
3449. Is there anything you wish to add?-I may make one remark
about that last point,-the valuation of the goods. Many years ago
I had a partner, from which the firm took its name of Sinclair &
Co. At that time we ticketed all the shawls that we bought, with
the exception of the lower-priced ones. We found it a little
inconvenient to be always doing that, and my partner and I, in
order to test our own judgment with regard to these articles,
entered the goods in a book at the ticketed value when we bought
them. When we put them out to the dressing, of course the tickets
were taken off; but when they came back, we re-valued them
according to our own judgment, without any reference to the
entries we had made in the book; and I can declare on my oath that
we never varied one per cent. on the things-we knew their value
so well. When I came to see that I could judge of the values so
well, I did not ticket the lower qualities of goods-only those of
the value of which there could be any doubt.
Lerwick, January 6, 1872, MARGARET CLUNAS, examined.
3450. You are a native of Unst, and you have lived there until
lately?-Yes.
3451. Are you in the habit of knitting?-Yes.
3452. For whom did you knit in Unst?-For Mr. Thomas
Jamieson.
3453. Is he a merchant and purchaser of hosiery?-Yes.
3454. Did you knit with wool supplied by him?-Yes; generally.
3455. You sometimes knitted with worsted of your own?-Yes.
3456. How were you paid for what you knitted with his
worsted?-The veils were 1s. when made with Scotch worsted,
and 10d. when made with Shetland worsted, and for shawls of
twenty-four scores we were paid 9s. for knitting.
3457. What do you mean by twenty-four scores?-That was the
size of the shawl.
3458. Did he pay you in money when you knitted for him in that
way?-No.
3459. Did you ever get any money from him?-No, I never got it,
because it was a thing he never gave, and we never asked for it.
3460. Were you content to take the value in goods?-Sometimes,
and sometimes not.
3461. When were you not content to do that?-When I could not
fall in with the things I was wanting.
3462. Was that often?-Not very often; but sometimes he was out
of things I wanted.
3463. When you wanted anything which you could not fall in with
in his shop, what did you do?-Sometimes he sent for it to us, and
sometimes not; and we had then to take just what things were
there.
3464. Did you live with your father?-Yes.
3465. He kept you in food, so that you did not require to buy any
food for yourself?-Only sometimes in the summer time chiefly.
3466. Did you work out in the summer time?-Yes, for day's
wages.
3467. Then you did not require to knit for your living, but only for
your clothing?-Only for our clothing; but of course we could not
have got food for our knitting from that man, even if we had
required it. He would not have given it.
3468. How much would you make in the week in Unst by
knitting?-Perhaps 3s. or 4s., according to what we did.
3469. That was his value in goods?-Yes.
3470. Were you paid in the same way when you knitted with your
own worsted?-Yes, we were generally paid in the same way.
3471. What kind of goods did you get from Mr Jamieson?-
Cotton and winceys.
3472. Did you get tea?-He would sometimes refuse to give above
a quarter pound of tea on a 9s. shawl he did not like to give much
tea.
3473. Why?-He called it a money article, and he would not give
it.
3474. How long is it since you left Unst?-It is about two or three
months since I left it first, but I have been home again for some
time.
3475. Did you come to Lerwick to knit?-No, I came to be a
servant.
3476. Are you not knitting here now?-Yes, I am knitting at
present.
3477. Are you out of a place?-Yes.
3478. Do you deal in the same way here as you did in Unst, or is
there any difference?-There is a woman in Lerwick that I knit to,
and she gets money for our goods, and is thus able to pay us in
money.
3479. Who is that?-Miss Hutchison, Burn's Lane.
3480. Does she always pay you in money?-Yes; or if she has any
little thing, which she has got, we can get it.
3481. Are there other merchants in Unst besides Mr. Jamieson
who buy hosiery?-Yes.
3482. Who are they?-Mr. Alexander Sandison, at Uyea Sound.
3483. Where is Mr. Jamieson's place?-At Westing.
3484. How did you happen to have wool of your own to knit
with?-We generally bought it from people who had wool.
3485. You got it from the neighbours?-Yes.
3486. What did you pay for fine Shetland worsted?-We bought
the wool, and we spun it for ourselves.
3487. Did you ever sell the worsted that you spun?-Yes.
3488. What did you get for it?-3d. a cut.
3489. Was that from Mr. Jamieson?-Yes; or from Mr. Sandison,
or any of them.
3490. Was that paid to you in money?-No.
3491. Was it always paid in goods?-Yes, but we would have got
more money articles for the worsted than we could get for knitting.
3492. They would have given you tea for worsted?-Yes.
3493. Would they not have given cash for it?-We never asked it;
but I believe if we had asked it, we would have got it for worsted.
3494. Then you did not ask money for your worsted, simply
because you wanted the goods?-Yes
Lerwick, January 6, 1872, Mrs. ANDRINA ANDERSON or
NICHOLSON, examined.
3495. You live in Lerwick?-Yes, at the Docks, but we call it
Lerwick.
3496. Your husband is alive?-Yes.
3497. Do you sometimes knit?-I don't knit so much at present as
I was accustomed to do, on account of my husband being at home;
and I don't require to do it.
3498. Have you heard a good deal of the evidence which has been
given here?-Yes; I came here for that purpose, but not to speak. I
wished to hear the evidence which was given, because I had heard
so much said on both sides of the subject.
3499. In the evidence you have heard, is there much that you differ
from and wish to correct?-As I have [Page 79] had a good deal of
knowledge with regard to the hosiery business and about the
payment in goods, I should like to say what I know about that, and
what I think would be a better plan to take, so far as my experience
goes.
3500. You have heard a description given of the system as it
exists,-how hosiery is paid for in goods or in lines?-I have not
only heard it, but I have had experience of it for a long time. The
first shawl I knitted was in 1840, and since then almost all that I
have done has been in the hosiery line, either knitting or dressing.
3501. Has all your work been paid for by goods in an account?-
Almost the whole of it has been paid in that way, that is, what I
have done in Lerwick; but I have done something for Miss
Hutchison. I have also sent some goods south to Mr. John White,
and been paid for them in money.
3502. But all that you have done for the merchants in Lerwick has
been paid for to you in goods?-I think the whole of it.
3503. You are speaking now of all the shops in Lerwick?-I don't
have any particular statement to make about one more than
another, because I have dealt with three or four different shops.
3504. Are you speaking now of articles which you have knitted
with your own wool, or with the wool which was given out to you
by merchants?-I chiefly knitted an article and sold it; but I was in
the way of dressing for a good many years, and, I saw then how the
people complained about getting goods for their work. Their
complaints on that subject were very frequent, and in some cases I
thought they had great reason to complain.
3505. Why was that?-Because the goods were charged so much
more in some cases than what they could have been got for in
ready money. I may tell you what first opened my mind to that
point. I required a good deal of money at one time. I could not get
it in the way we were then doing, and I then adopted the plan of
trying to dress for some of the hosiers, and getting money for it.
3506. How long ago was that?-I think it will be about sixteen
years ago. Fourteen years past in July I went south and sold a
Shetland shawl to Mr. Mackenzie, a Shetland warehouseman, in
Princes Street, Edinburgh. He asked me what I wanted for the
shawl, and I said 10s. He said he would give me 8s. I told him I
could get 10s. in Lerwick for it, from the merchants there; and he
said, 'But when I give you 8s., that is just as good to you as 10s.
from them.' I had felt the truth of that, but I had never seen it
properly before.
3507. Did he explain to you how 8s. in cash from him was equal to
10s. from the merchants in Lerwick?-He told me the profit was
laid on the goods; and at that time, and before that time, I will
declare it was.
3508. You mean that the goods were dearer in Lerwick than you
could have bought them in the south?-Not only in the south, but
dearer than we could have bought them in another shop in the
town. We could have bought them cheaper in shops in Lerwick
when we were not dealing in the hosiery business.
3509. Are there drapery shops now in Lerwick that do not deal in
hosiery?-Yes.
3510. And is it the case that you can purchase the same goods at
those shops at a lower price than you can at shops where the
hosiery business is carried on?-Yes; I know that from experience,
because I have the money in my hand, and I can go and purchase
them cheaper elsewhere than I can do at some of these shops. I
don't say at them all, but I know there are some of the drapery
shops in Lerwick where they could be got cheaper. I will give a
case of that. Last summer I had to buy a woollen shirt, and I went
into a shop, and saw a piece that I thought would do. The
merchant brought it down and said it was 1s. 8d. a yard. Another
merchant had charged me 1s. 6d. for something of the same kind,
and I told this merchant that the thing was too dear. He said, ' I
will give it to you for 1s. 6d. a yard;' and I said, 'Well, I will give
you 4s. 6d. for 31/4 yards of it;' and he gave it me. A day or two
afterwards a woman came into my house and saw the goods, and
said, 'That is the same as I have bought; what did you pay for
that?'-I said I had paid money, because it is an understanding
that some shops can give it for less with money than with hosiery.
I told her I paid 4s. 6d. for 31/4 yards; and she then told me that she
had paid 2s. of hosiery for a yard of it-6s. for 3, or, 6s. 6d. for 31/4
yards-just the quantity required.
3511. Have you any objection to give me the name of the woman
and the names of the shops?-I could give the names, but I would
prefer to do so privately. The stuff I bought is still in existence,
and also what she bought, and they could be compared, to show
that they are of the same quality. I did not do that with any
intention of finding out the difference in prices; it just occurred
accidentally, and I only give it as an instance, to prove that if we
could get money for our hosiery goods it would be far better for us.
I know that many a poor creature in Lerwick, if she could get
money for her articles, even although she were to get less of it,
could make more of it than she does now, by getting the money in
her own hand, to be applied for any purpose she thought proper. I
heard you ask one of the witnesses whether people would give
them articles for less in money than in goods, and that was what
made me think over it.
3512. Do you think they would be willing to do so?-I think so. I
remember one time when Mr. Mackenzie-the same gentleman I
have already mentioned-came down to Lerwick and stayed here
for some time, and he gave money for the articles that were
brought to him, but scarcely so much as his own customers in
Lerwick will give you in goods; and that was the way he came to
know that if he gave me 8s., he would pay me as well as some of
those who paid me with 10s.
3513. Did you sell anything to him at that time?-I sold to him at
the time I was south. I did not sell to him at Lerwick. I could not
get in to see him there, because there were so many people who
came with their work for the sake of getting money for it, although
it was a less sum that he gave than the merchants here.
3514. How long ago was that?-It was when Mr. Harrison was
dealing in the business. I think it will be about twenty-five years
ago.
3515. Then the custom at that time was to deal in goods, as it is
now?-Yes; and indeed the goods are rather a better price now
than they were then. We could get scarcely any money articles at
that time at all. I think that the articles are more reasonably priced
now than they were at that time. I have seen us go into a shop
then, and they would ask us what sort of goods we wanted for our
knitting; and if they saw we wanted money article they would
perhaps not take the goods at all.
3516. You say that you know many girls who would be much
better off by being paid in money?-Yes, if what they tell me is
true. They say that there are many purposes to which they would
require to put money if they had it, but they cannot get it without
doing something for it in some other way, as has been already
explained. I have heard you put a question to some of them about
their being compelled to sell their lines. I don't know any case of
that kind, but I know that they have done that, or equivalent to it,
by taking a piece of cotton out of the shops and selling it in order
to serve the purpose they required the money for.
3517. I suppose some of them manage to live by taking in lodgers
occasionally?-That is done only on very small scale in Lerwick.
3518. Do not people in the country sometimes come in and stay
with them for a night or two?-Yes but it could scarcely be called
a lodging-house as that is understood in the south.
3519. But people do come from the country for a night or two, and
perhaps bring their own provisions with them?-There is very
little of that can be done in Lerwick at present, because there have
been so [Page 80] many people warned out of their farms in the
country.
3520. Have you known many cases, within your own knowledge,
of girls being in straits in consequence of that system of
dealing?-Yes, I have had to supply them many a time with things.
I bought some little things from a girl within the last week or two
at a reduced price, which she took from me because I could give
her the money. I did not require the article. I only bought it from
her as a charity, and I would not have mentioned it unless you had
asked me.
3521. Have you ever known of girls falling into evil courses in
consequence of the want of money?-Perhaps if they had the
inclination, they would have fallen into them any way. I think, on
the whole, that if they had money, they would be able to save a
good deal out of the expense for dress which they sometimes wear.
They would then have their money, to do what they chose with it.
Perhaps they might apply some of it for a religious purpose, or put
it into a missionary box; or if they did not think of doing that, they
might have an opportunity to put it into the savings bank, which
Lerwick knitters have never yet had the pleasure doing.
3522. Is there no savings bank here?-There is a post-office
savings bank; but I don't think there are many of the knitters who
can get the blessing of putting cash into it for a rainy day, either to
pay the doctor or anything else.
3523. You seem to think that the effect of the system is to lead
them to spend more of their earnings on dress than they would
otherwise do?-When I was young myself and unmarried, and
when I was getting dresses instead of getting money articles for my
work, I would not have thought much of putting a very expensive
dress on; but when I got money I did not like to spend so much
upon dress, because I prized the money so much more. I only
judge others as I would judge myself; but I know that when I was
paid only in goods for my knitting, I would be more ready to take
an expensive dress than if I were to get money.
3524. I asked you a question just now which you did not answer
quite distinctly: whether you had known of girls who were knitters
falling into evil courses?-I cannot say about that.
3525. Do you think girls are led to fall into a bad way of living
from the system which prevails here, and from being led by it to
indulge more in dress than they ought to do, or from being in
straits from want of food?-I cannot answer that question. I don't
see why they should do that in consequence of the system; but
what I mean is, that if they could get money for their goods, that
would perhaps prevent them from spending all their earnings in
dress, and expensive articles of that kind, and they would have
something for other purposes which are as necessary, or more so.
3526. You said the prices differed at certain shops in town: would
you give me an instance of that besides what you have mentioned?
Suppose, for instance, that cotton is charged at 6d. a yard, is not
that the common price for cotton that is given for hosiery?-Yes.
3527. Do you know whether that could be got cheaper at any other
shop?-That particular thing does not vary so much just now as it
used to do; but with regard to the dress pieces, and things of that
kind, I know there are some shops that have a higher price marked
on the articles than the other shops have on an article of the same
appearance and, I think, of the same value.
3528. You know that from examining them in the shops?-I know
it by going from shop to shop and purchasing the articles with
money for myself.
3529. What is your husband's business?-He is a cooper.
3530. Have you bought Shetland worsted yourself?-I have.
3531. From merchants or from people?-Generally from country
people.
3532. Do you always pay money for it?-Yes.
3533. Have you bought it from merchants too?-Yes.
3534. Do you always pay them money for it?-I have seen Mr.
Sinclair sometimes supply me with some of it on work, although it
was a money article and I felt obliged to him for it, because I
sometimes could not get it from the country as well as he could.
3535. That was given you to work into things for yourself?-Yes.
3536. But the price was the same, in both cases?-Yes; of the
Shetland worsted.
3537. And when you got it from the shop in that way, it was as a
favour that you got it?-Yes.
3538. What would be the value of the Shetland worsted in a shawl
that was worth 20s.?-I generally deal with Mr. John White in
shawls that are worth more than that. I do not send many to him
now.
3539. Do you get a high price for them from him?-No; I can get
as much for them in Lerwick.
3540. What price do you get for these shawls?-From 28s. to 30s.;
and I can go in with the same shawl to any of the shops in Lerwick
and get the same price, only in goods. I don't say that Mr. White
will give us any more for our shawls than the merchants here will
give us in goods.
3541. Only you think that, if you get 30s. in cash from Mr. White,
you could possibly buy what you want cheaper than you would get
it from the merchants here in exchange for your hosiery?-Yes,
that is what I mean to say.
3542. With regard to a shawl worth 30s., how much would you pay
for the Shetland worsted that it is made of?-Perhaps about 9s. or
9s. 6d., or perhaps 8s. 6d. if I could buy it economically.
3543. About what quantity of worsted would there be in it?-
About thirty-three cuts to that size of shawl.
3544. Would it be worth more than 8d. a cut?-No. Some people
might charge more, but I generally get it for that.
3545. Then thirty-three cuts at 3d. a cut would be 8s. 3d. for the
worsted?-Yes.
3546. How long would it take you to knit such a shawl?-It would
take me a long time just now.
3547. Perhaps it is hardly possible to calculate how long it would
take?-No.
3548. The worsted is the only expense you would have in making
such a shawl?-Yes; I could dress it for myself.
3549. But if you did not, what would be the charge for dressing?-
6d.
3550. So that the payment for your labour on a shawl of that kind
would be about 21s.?-Yes; but of course, if I was getting it
knitted, I might get it done for about 12s. A knitter would make it
for me for that sum if I were giving her the worsted.
3551. Have you ever dealt in that way giving out worsted to
knitters, and getting shawls knitted for yourself?-Only on a very
small scale. I knitted more to others when I was young.
3552. But you have given out some knitting to others?-Yes,
perhaps part of a shawl; so that I calculate the whole cost would be
about that.
3553. Therefore, if you were giving out a shawl to knit, it would
cost you 8s. 9d. for the material and the dressing, and you would
pay 12s. for the knitting-in all, 20s. 9d.; and you could sell it to
Mr. White in cash for 9s. 3d. of profit?-I would not call it all
profit, because sometimes I have a good deal to do before I can get
the worsted wrought as good as I would like to put it into Mr.
White's shawls, and then I have to lie out of my money until I can
get a party to take it in. Besides, if I were putting it out to knitter, I
would have to stand the risk of getting it done properly to my
mind. There might be some faults in the shawl; and if there was
anything of that kind, there must be an allowance made for that. I
am not saying that I ever did that, I am only speaking of how it
could be done.
3554. You are speaking of what you could do, and of what you
know can be done, from your experience in giving out part of your
own work?-Yes.
3555. Do you know anything about the stocking [Page 81]
business-the cheaper and coarser kind of Shetland goods?-No; I
have not much acquaintance with that. I may say, that while I
think in Lerwick it would be far better for the people if they could
get money for their work, yet the country people are not requiring
the money quite so much, as they need the goods at any rate; but
if, as a rule, a money system were once established, and the people
were all to get money for the work, I think those who purchase the
work would find the profit of it as well as those who have to sell it.
3556. Have you ever considered why this system of paying in
goods is kept up?-Yes.
3557. What do you suppose to be the reason for it?-If I had had
it in my power, I would perhaps have done the very same as the
merchants have done, because they have got the good of it.
3558. How have they got the good of it?-Because I think they
must have had a profit on it.
3559. On the hosiery?-Not so much on the hosiery as on the
goods. Reason teaches me that there must be a profit somewhere,
or else it would not have been carried on to such an extent.
3560. I suppose the present system of payment induces the people
who sell hosiery to the merchants, to buy their goods from them
rather than from another?-Certainly it does; because, when I go
in with a shawl to a merchant, I consider that I have to take the
whole value of that shawl out in goods.
3561. It makes the merchants sure of their customers?-Yes.
3562. Is there anything else you wish to say?-I may mention, that
I think the system of paying half in money and half in goods would
not do. One party was asked whether she would be pleased to take
one half in money, and the rest of the payment in goods. That may
be a good enough plan if it were established and carried on
throughout the year; but I remember that at one time one-half the
value of a shawl was given in groceries, and that plan died away.
The merchants kept groceries at that time, for the sake of getting
hosiery with which to supply their orders. The merchants who did
so were Mr. Harrison and Mr. Laurenson. As the season of the
year came round when they did not have orders for their shawls,
then, if they bought shawls, they had to lay them past until the
market opened again; and there were very few groceries given out,
because I understood they had more profit on their drapery goods.
By and by the system of giving groceries died out altogether.
3563. Was that because they had a less profit on them than on the
drapery?-I understood so. I remember Mrs. Harrison, the party
with whom Mr. Mackenzie lodged, telling me that as soon as the
country people began to knit, we, the town's people, would suffer
very much. I could not understand very well what she meant at
that time, but afterwards, when the country people supplied the
merchants with the goods which they required, then they saw that
these people from the country only required drapery, and they
could get their orders supplied from the country. That led the
merchants to pay for the hosiery only in drapery goods, and the
Lerwick people had to comply with the same rule. It was when the
country people came in to do the knitting that the supply of
groceries died away, because the merchants could get their orders
so much cheaper from the country people. They did not require
the groceries like the town's people, because knitting was not the
only thing which they had for their living.
3564. Do you think the ready-money system would be better for
the merchants than the present?-It would be better for those who
have very little profit on the goods they sell, but it would not be so
good for those merchants who take a great deal of profit.
3565. Are there any of the merchants who take very little profit on
their goods?-There are some who have less than others.
3566. And you think they would profit by a cash system?-I think,
on the whole, they would.
3567. They would have no bad debts?-No; and they would not
issue so many lines or have so many clerks; and there are a great
many ways in which I think it would be better for them.
Lerwick, January 6, 1872, THOMAS NICHOLSON, examined.
3568. You are a draper and dealer in hosiery in Lerwick?-Yes,
principally a draper. I don't do much in hosiery.
3569. You were formerly in the service of Robert Sinclair &
Co.?-Yes.
3570. You have heard some of the evidence that has been given
here?-Yes, some of it. I think Mrs. Nicholson and Mr. Johnstone
are the only persons whose evidence I have heard throughout.
3571. Do you concur generally with what Mr. Johnstone said about
the system of business here?-Yes. I also heard a good part of Mr.
Laurenson's evidence, and I thought it gave a fair statement of the
matter.
3572. Is there anything you wish to add with regard to the system
of paying in goods?-I have nothing to add to what I believe has
already been stated.
3573. Do you give lines?-Only a very few, when they are asked.
3574. Do you give them to people from whom you buy hosiery, or
to those who knit for you?-Only to those from whom I buy
hosiery. I don't give out any hosiery to knit at all.
3575. Is it understood in your trade, as well as in that of the other
gentlemen who have been examined, that all purchases of hosiery
are to be settled for in goods?-Yes, that is generally understood.
It has always been the habit, and we have never got it altered yet.
3576. Do you think it would be expedient to have a change in that
respect?-I believe it would, if it could only be got to work.
3577. What is the difficulty in the way of having another
system?-We could not give so much in cash for the goods we
buy.
3578. Do you think the people generally would not take cash?-
Yes, I believe they would want goods. So far as I am concerned,
they always take goods from me, and I have never heard them ask
for cash. I deal both with country people and with people from
Lerwick, and none of them ever asked me for it.
3579. Is it long since you left Mr. Sinclair's employment?-About
two and a half years ago.
3580. There has been no important change made in the system of
carrying on business either in your shop or in his during that
time?-No.
3581. Do you do much in the coarser kinds of hosiery?-A little
not a great deal. The stockings are generally done by the country
people, and the finer work by the town's people.
3582. You buy the stockings from the country people?-Yes, I just
exchange the one article for the other.
3583. You fix a nominal price at which you are to buy the
stockings?-Yes; the price. I expect to get for them, as near as I
can fix it.
3584. You don't expect to make a profit on them?-No; I would
often be very thankful to get what I have paid for them.
3585. Then your profit is on the goods which you give in
exchange?-Yes.
3586. Do you think you take a higher profit on your goods in
consequence of accepting payment for them in hosiery rather than
in cash?-No; the goods are all marked in plain figures. When I
get cash I generally give off 21/2 or 33/4 cent.
3587. But don't you take a higher profit from all your customers
because so much of your goods are paid for in hosiery?-No; if I
did so, I would run the risk of losing my business; and in fact I
would rather give up the hosiery altogether, because I don't think
it [Page 82] pays very well, so much of it gets damaged, and the
moths get into it.
3588. How long were you in Mr. Sinclair's shop?-For thirteen
years.
3589. Were you acquainted both with the prices paid for hosiery
goods and the prices obtained for them in the south?-Yes.
3590. Was more asked for them from the merchants in the south
than was paid for them to the knitters in Lerwick?-No; we were
always very thankful to get what we had given in goods for them.
3591. But if a cash price was paid for an article, was a higher price
put upon it when it was sold south?-Yes; if we paid cash, we
required a little more than we had paid. We could not have carried
on the business without having a little profit on it.
3592. You do not give out any knitting at all?-Scarcely any. I
think I have only two girls knitting for me at present.
3593. Do they get any part of their payment in cash?-Yes,
whenever they ask it.
3594. But is it not the understanding that they shall be paid in
goods?-Yes; it is generally understood that they shall get
anything they want.
3595. How much are they in use to ask for in cash?-Probably a
shilling now and then.
3596. Do they live by their knitting, or have they other means of
support?-There is one party that does something for me who
lives exclusively, or almost exclusively, by knitting; but almost all
the girls have something else to do besides that.
3597. What is the name of the girl who lives almost exclusively by
knitting?-I think one of them is Catherine Borthwick.
3598. Tea is one of the most common articles you give in
exchange for the knitting?-Yes.
3599. Have you ever known of the goods you gave being
exchanged for necessaries after you gave them?-No.
3600. Or of your lines being exchanged for necessaries or for
cash?-I never knew of a case where that was done.
3601. Have you heard of such a thing being done?-I have heard
of it; but I never knew of any of my lines, or any of the goods
bought, from me, being exchanged.
3602. Are your lines generally brought back by the same parties to
whom they were given out?-I think so; but I am not quite sure,
because we just put on them 'Credit the bearer' so much.
3603. Have you a register of your lines?-Yes; I enter the number
of the lines in a book.
3604. Was that a system which you adopted from Mr. Sinclair?-It
was partly a system of my own. When I commenced on my own
account, I adopted the system of keeping a check, the same as a
bank chequebook.
3605. How many of these lines do you suppose you issue?-I don't
do a great deal in that way. It is only for the accommodation of
the parties that I give any at all. I would be quite prepared to settle
with them at once if they liked.
3606. I suppose these lines are generally given for the balance
upon a shawl, or anything that you buy?-Yes, for any little thing
they are selling.
3607. Part of the price is taken in goods, and they take the balance
in a line if they don't want the whole of it?-Yes; or perhaps a line
may be taken for the whole of it, and they come and get tea and
other articles as they want them.
3608. Is it generally long before they come back with these
lines?-Some of them may be returned perhaps in a few days, and
some of them in a few months. A country girl may keep a line
beside her for perhaps a month or twelve months. I have known
them keep them for three years, when I was in Mr. Sinclair's
employment.
3609. Then the system of lines existed when you were with Mr.
Sinclair?-Yes.
3610. But he had not a register of them at that time?-Not for all
the lines: he had a check for them, but they were not all registered
then.
3611. Are you aware of the fact that the knitters in Shetland are
anxious to sell their goods to others than merchants, in order to get
ready money for them?-I believe some of them are; but I never
met with many who were anxious to sell their goods for cash.
Lerwick, January 6, 1872, ISABELLA SINCLAIR, recalled.
3612. Do you wish to add anything to your previous evidence?-I
wish merely to say, that I have known cases where people have
gone out with hosiery and sold it for money, and then come into
our shop and bought what goods they required.
3613. Was that hosiery which had been offered to you before and
was refused?-Yes.
3614. You had refused to buy it at the price they wanted?-Yes; at
any price. I remember one case of that kind with regard to some
half-stockings.
3615. When you refused to take them, the woman went and sold
them elsewhere, and then came back to you with the money?-
Yes.
3616. Was that long ago?-Yes, a good while ago. Of course
there may have been other cases of that kind which I don't know
about, but in that particular case the woman told me she had done
it, I don't remember her name.
Lerwick, January 6, 1872, ROBERT SINCLAIR, recalled.
3617. Do you wish to add anything?-I should like to state
something which struck me just now about a case where I saw
lines given for money. It occurred in my own shop, and I believe
it occurs oftener than we think; but there was one time when I
detected it. A customer came into my shop and made some
purchases, and at the same time another customer came in who I
knew had got lines from the shop. The first person who was
making the purchase was carrying through a cash transaction with
me, and I expected to have been paid in money for it; but the other
customer who had the lines took the other person aside and handed
over the lines to her, and I was paid with them. I did not object to
take the lines for their value, because the goods were charged at a
fixed value for cash or line, but it certainly deprived me of the
cash at that time.
3618. And it deprived you also of the profit which you would have
had upon the goods that ought to have been given for the line?-
Yes. I merely mention that as an instance in which cash was given
for lines.
<Adjourned>.
[Page 83]
Lerwick: Monday, January 8, 1872.
<Present>-Mr. Guthrie.