more than that in the account. The very first thing is a balance on
worsted from a previous account, of 2s.; then on December 16,
1865, she gets 12 and 16 cuts at the same time, but at different
prices. The 16 cuts are charged at 3d. per cut, which is a kind of
worsted we very seldom sell. Then July 5, 1866, there are 12 cuts;
and in 1868 there are other sales of worsted to her.
2485. Is this a copy from your books of the account with Elizabeth
Robertson?-Yes; exactly.
2486. The crosses on the side show where worsted has been
given?-Yes.
2487. Do these entries refer to Shetland worsted?-I think mostly.
2488. But you say this is an exceptional case?-Yes; it was to
favour her that I did it.
2489. Was there any particular reason for favouring her in that
way?-It was done because I thought she was a needful person,
and she pleaded for it.
2490. Was it that sort of wool that she was in the way of
knitting?-It was that kind she wanted; and although I was not in
the habit of selling it, I gave it to oblige her.
2491. Do these entries appear in the ordinary account which you
kept with her as a knitter employed by you?-She was never
employed by me specially.
2492. Did she always knit with her own wool?-Always with
me. She did not knit specially to me, that I recollect of I have
no recollection of ever employing her. [Shown account in
work-book.] I see from this that she has knitted for me. She
knitted three shawls for me in 1867. The others are shawls she
knitted for herself, and sold in the shop. At 15, March 1870, she
was due me £4, 16s. 31/2d.
2493. I see that between March 29 and December 28 she has paid
off that balance with the exception about £1?-Yes. Then she said
in her evidence that she would not have taken out so much in
clothes, or half so much, if it had not been that she was compelled
to take goods for her work. Now I would ask how that statement is
consistent with the fact that for about twelve months she was due
me that sum, mostly for clothes, when she was not asked to take
them, but the reverse.
2494. She got them on credit?-Yes.
2495. Then this account of hers you happen to have, because she
was knitting at that time for you?-I would not assign that is a
reason for her getting the goods.
2496. But I am asking you the reason why you have this
account?-Because it is in my books.
2497. I rather understood that the only women who had accounts
entered in your books were those who were employed by you as
knitters: is not that so?-Of course, when the women get into my
debt, I must take note of what they bring to me with which to
pay off their debt; and that must pass through my books. I do not
take a note of all the transactions over the counter; it is only when
a woman runs into debt that anything appears in the books.
2498. Is this account taken from what you call the work-book?-
No; it is entered first in our ledgers, and now it has been
transferred to the work-book.
2499. Is the ledger a different book?-The work-book is a kind of
compound between the two. It was entered first in the one, and
then in the other.
2500. But it was because the woman was working for you that the
account happened to be put in that form?-Of course. I think that
was mostly the way in which the credit was got. She would just
creep in and then, and she was in the habit of getting things that
she asked for, and these were put into the book. That is the only
way in which I can account for her getting them. But I would
draw attention to the copy of her account, as showing that she got
goods she needed them and it was a mere subterfuge for her to say
that she got goods from the merchant although she did not knit for
him.
2501. Is there anything further you wish to say with regard to the
evidence of Elizabeth Robertson?-Nothing, except with regard to
these two items of it.
2502. When she was under examination she handed me this line
[showing line quoted in Elizabeth Robertson's evidence]; and I
have also got a line in these
'C. Y. 92.-Credit bearer value in goods for 18s.
'R. SINCLAIR & CO.
'J.J.B.
'22. 12. 71.'
Do you give out many of these lines in your business?-Yes, a
good many.
2503. How is that?-It is not our wish to give lines, if the women
would only take the value out at once; but when they have
bargained to take goods for their work or for their hosiery, and
they will not take them at the time, what are we to do?-We might
enter them in a book, but they prefer to have a line, and come with
it and get what they want marked on it later, whenever they want
the goods.
2504. What is the meaning of the initial letters at the
commencement of the line?-They are put there so that we may be
able to identify the lines at a glance and they correspond with the
same letters in the line-book, where a check is kept. The numbers
begin under each initial letter, and run to 100 consecutively until
that number is reached, and then we begin with another initial
letter. For instance, after C. W. we have C. X.
2505. There are two letters: how do you explain that?-Because,
when we get to the end of the alphabet we must distinguish; we
could not begin with again.
2506. In introducing this system of notation you began with?-
Yes, and went on to Z.
2507. You numbered these receipts or notes, or whatever they may
be called, A 1, A 2, and so on up to A 100, and then you went
through the alphabet with one letter until you came to Z 100?-
Yes.
2508. When you began to take A A 1, and so on?-I think it was A
B, until we came to the end of the alphabet again.
2509. Then you took BA, and so on to B Z, using the double letters
BA, 100 times, and the double letters BC 100 times?-Yes.
2510. How long is it since this system was introduced?-I have no
recollection how long it is since it began. It is not two years, I
think; but it may be more.
2511. Does that mean that you have issued some 6000 or 8000 of
these lines in two years?-I suppose so. It will just mean about
that.
2512. Can you give me any idea, or do your books give any idea,
within what time these lines are brought back to be liquidated?-
Sometimes in two hours, and sometimes longer. When we take
goods from the knitters, we generally, in order to prevent any
mistake, give them a receipt for them in that form; and having
other work to do when we are very busy, they take that in their
pocket and go away, and then they look in again when we have a
slack moment and get the value of it, sometimes on the very same
day. I don't know how often it is on the same day, but it is very
often.
2513. Are these lines only given to the people who sell you goods,
or are they given also to your work-people?-There are very few
of the work-people who got lines in that way. It is only when the
people selling goods that they may get such a line if they want it.
2514. Can you tell me any of your work-people who have got lines
in that way?-I cannot; but the work-book would show if such
lines had been given.
2515. In what way does the work-book show it?-By an entry to
the individual's debit. I think you will find very few of them.
2516. What do you call these things? Do you call them I O U's, or
receipts, or lines; or what are they?-They are just vouchers for
their value.
[Page 54]
2517. Is it a general practice in the trade in Lerwick to give these
lines?-It is only within the last few years that it has been
practised to any extent, and we would, much rather do away with
them if we could.
2518. How could they be done away with?-Just by giving the
people value for their goods when they bring them. That is the
only way I know.
2519. Do you mean the value in cash?-The value in cash or in
goods. If it cash tariff were introduced, which I suppose would be
better for the whole of us, it would save us all this bother.
2520. Do you think it would be better to have a cash system
introduced altogether?-It would be better for the trade, at any
rate.
2521. But the nominal price paid to the knitters would in that case
be less?-I think that, in some cases, not only the nominal but the
real price would be less.
2522. Do you mean that the knitter would really get less value for
her work?-I do mean that, as we have always endeavoured to
deal on that principle,-to sell on cash terms, and to take the very
least we could for the article in cash.
2523. You mean that you take the smallest profit you can on your
goods?-Yes. Suppose for instance, a woman comes in with a
shawl, the market value of which is 20s. that is the price I should
expect to get, and would get, for it.
2524. Do you mean that is the market value in Lerwick?-No; it is
the market value in the south. Suppose the value put upon it were
£1, I would only get 20s. for it in the south.
2525. Do you sell your goods to retail or wholesale dealers?-I
sell them wherever I can get them sold, but the greater part of
them are sold wholesale; that is, we sell them wholesale to retail
dealers.
2526. You sell them to retail dealers, so that you have only one
price, for your goods going south?-Yes.
2527. You heard Mr. Laurenson state that there was sometimes it
difference in the price which he charged, according as the sale was
one to dealer, or to a dealer who sold retail?-I understood Mr.
Laurenson to mean that he made a difference when he sold a shawl
to a private customer, and when he sold a dozen or two to a retail
dealer; and so do we.
2528. Is that the only difference you make in selling your
goods?-Yes; and we think that is only fair the trade.
2529. I interrupted you when you were putting the case of a shawl
worth 20s. What did you wish to say about that?-We fix our
lowest rate of profits, and we give the people goods the same as if
they had cash to lay down for them; and I can bring evidence to
that effect if you want it.
2530. Do you mean that you fix your lowest rate of profit upon the
hosiery goods you buy?-No; our lowest rate of profit on the
goods we sell. A third way of explaining it is, that we treat as cash
the goods which we buy. A shawl worth 20s. is reckoned by us as
a £1 note would be reckoned,-with this difference, that if a man
is laying down a £l note we would give him 5 per cent. discount
when he bought our goods. We consider that the trouble we have
with the shawls, and the time we lie out of our money, is worth 5
per cent.
2531. Then what you say comes to this: that upon your hosiery
goods you make no profit at all?-Not when they are once sold;
that is to say, when they are once bought, the profit lies in the
profit we have upon the goods. That is the only profit we have in
the matter.
2532. But upon the hosiery, looked at by itself, you do not make
any profit at all?-No; I say that I make none, and I swear to that
most emphatically.
2533. In other words, the profit you make upon your purchases of
hosiery is only the profit you make upon your sales of goods,
which are given in return for the hosiery?-Yes; in short, it is two
sales for one profit.
2534. That is to say, you are obliged to take the hosiery at the
market price in the south, in order to get payment for your drapery
and other goods?-With regard to that, I am not obliged to take
them, further than that is the only thing in the country that
reckoned as a kind of payment.
2535. It is the only thing which your purchasers have to give you
for your goods?-That is my meaning exactly.
2536. You were going to offer me some evidence of that?-I can
give evidence of it afterwards. My own employees can prove it,
also women who have been in my employment, and also people
who have been purchasing both for cash and goods.
2537. What can they prove?-They can prove that there is no
difference between the two prices, and that the price which I
charged is the lowest price I can fix.
2538. You are prepared to give evidence of this fact, that the price
you allow to the seller of hosiery in Shetland is the price you get
from the buyer in the south?-Yes, I can prove that. At least I can
prove that it is so on the whole, by comparison, the invoiced prices
of the goods sent south with the general prices of goods bought in
the country. Here is a list of them [producing trade list].
2539. Is this list what you send to your purchasing customers?-
Yes; and if you compare these prices with the prices of similar
goods bought at the counter of my shop, you will find that there is
no difference. The question was put to me, whether there would
be a difference between the nominal value a customer would
receive under the present system and if a cash system were
introduced. I say there would be a real difference, but ultimately
the merchant would be no loser. The difference would lie in this:
that if I were compelled to buy goods for cash, that is, if I could
not barter them, I would have no profit by giving the same rate that
I now give. That, I think, is plain from what I have already stated.
Then I would require to buy them at a discount equivalent to the
profit I now have on my goods, or else I could not carry on my
trade; and that would be the same with whoever dealt in these
articles. The cash price we can afford to give for Shetland goods
here is just the value we pay for the goods that we give in
exchange for them; and if we were to give more than that price,
there would be an end of the trade.
2540. Do you not mean that it is the value you pay for the goods
you give in exchange, plus your profit upon these goods?-I say
the price we could afford to pay in cash is just the price we do pay
cash, which is paid not to the knitter, but to the party in the south
that we buy our goods from. Our goods cost us cash: that cash,
thousands of pounds every year, would go into the hands of the
knitters here; but in that case we would just give them that money,
less the profit we have on the goods. That is speaking of the thing
in a broad sense. There would be a real loss to the knitters in that
case where they were fairly dealt with, because they could not get
goods without a profit, and they in that case would have to put
their hands into their pockets and give a few shillings more. For
instance, suppose the case of a 20s. shawl: they get 20s. of real
good value for it under the present system. If I were obliged to pay
in cash, I suppose I could not give more than 16s. or 17s. for it;
and if the individual wanted the very same thing from me which
she can now get for the 20s., yet under the other system she would
require to go to some other shop and purchase it, paying 3s. or 4s.
more for it than she now does.
2541. Is this what it comes to: that if a cash system were
introduced, the knitter would be worse off, because the merchant
would require to take two profits instead of one?-He would only
have one profit to take.
2542. But if it were a cash system, would he have to take two
profits?-No, he would not take two profits.
2543. If there were a cash system, would not the [Page 55] buyer
of the hosiery from the knitter require to make a profit upon the
hosiery?-Decidedly.
2544. And further, would not the seller of the goods to her require
to have a profit upon these goods as well?-Certainly.
2545. Therefore there would be two profits?-Yes; there would be
two profits taken from the knitter, but not by me.
2546. But I am putting the case of the knitter, and in that case the
buyer of the hosiery might be a different person altogether?-That
is my meaning.
2547. The knitter would have to sell her hosiery at such a price
that the hosiery merchant would make a profit on his re-sale, while
she would have to buy the goods at such a price that the dealer
from whom she bought them would make something like the
present profit which you make upon them?-Yes. Suppose we
were to purchase for cash, and the cash system were introduced, in
all probability the drapers would be simply drapers, and not
hosiers at all; or they might withdraw their capital from the
drapery business and embark it in the hosiery business altogether.
2548. Then what you mean to make out is, that at present you are
making only one profit?-I do mean to make that out, for it is true;
and I am very thankful when I can get it.
2549. How do you prove that there is only one profit at present?-
By looking at the prices at which the goods are bought and sold.
2550. Let us take a single instance: you have put in a wholesale
trade list for 1870?-Yes; we have later ones, but that will be
sufficient for the purpose. There is no difference on them.
2551. Is that list issued at the beginning of the year?-I should like
that others proved that, and not me. You can get it from my
employees, or from my books, or from people who buy from me.
2552. In what way do you suggest that it should be shown? By this
wholesale trade list, and by taking a variety of instances from your
books in which prices have been paid for the articles that are
mentioned here?-Yes.
2553. How would that be shown in your books?-By entries to the
knitters whom we deal with.
2554. We could not find that by the entries in the work-book,
because they show it only in detail?-I am not speaking of the
work-book just now.
2555. It could only be shown by the sales?-Yes; and of course
that list has been prepared from the prices which we pay for the
goods.
2556. Do you mean the prices to dealers, or prices to people who
sell them over the counter to you?-I mean the prices that we pay
to the people for them, and which I pay over to them.
2557. But I think you said that when you buy the goods over the
counter, no record is kept of these prices?-No; but the people that
we buy them from would tell you the prices they get for them. In
some instances, where debts have been paid by means of these
goods, there may be entries in the books which will show the
prices.
2558. Is there any entry in your books at all of your purchases of
hosiery? I rather understood you to say that there was no such
entry?-I think I said that when goods were presented for sale,
there was note taken of what was given for them; but when goods
come from the north isles or from people who send them to us
from a distance, we enter them in the books.
2559. Are there dealers in the north isles who send goods to
you?-Either dealers or private individuals may send us falls or
various other things, and the entries with regard to them will show
the prices given for them.
2560. These transactions will appear in the day-book?-I think so.
2561.You think Mr. Sandison, your bookkeeper, would be better
able to point these out than you?-He would be better able to lay
his hand on them; but sometimes we buy from dealers and pay
cash for them, and same thing applies in that case which Mr.
Laurenson stated, that we charge a small percentage on these
goods, because we pay in cash for them.
2562. You put in the trade list, and you also put in a copy invoice,
which you have shown to me, containing the prices at which you
have sold the goods there mentioned?-Yes. It shows that there is
a certain discount allowed; but that discount does not come off the
profits charged on the hosiery, but off the sales of goods I give for
them.
2563. Do you calculate that there is a larger profit upon hosiery
goods which are made by your own knitters than on those which
you buy and sell in the way you have described?-That is it
question I have sometimes asked myself; and, taking the thing
altogether, I don't think there is much difference.
2564. Don't you allow a little for the extra trouble and risk you
have with your knitters?-There is a certain market price that we
cannot get beyond. We must take the price in the market. Unless
one merchant was able to monopolize the trade altogether, and
force up the prices, he would not get more than the market price of
the goods.
2565. You have said that the footing on which you settle with your
knitters and with those who sell to you is, that the bargain between
you is that they are to take goods?-That is the understanding. We
do not make any formal bargain.
2566. Is that bargain made with the knitters whom you employ at
the time when you give out the wool?-I have said already that we
make no formal bargain, but it is generally understood that we pay
them in kind. They know that, and consequently they very seldom
ask for anything else. But we don't stick entirely to that.
2567. You sometimes give them cash?-Yes.
2568. Is it regarded as a great favour to pay them a considerable
sum in cash?-I may give an instance. The general price paid for
knitting a fall of Shetland yarn is about 1s. That is about the
average price, although the coarser quality may be lower than that.
The yarn for that fall costs us from 6d. to 7d. That is paid in cash;
and the girl is paid part in cash and part in goods, or it may be all
in goods. That brings up the cost to 19d.; but if it is wanted black
we must pay freight south, in order to have it dyed, and freight
back to Shetland. We also pay for the dyeing of it; and these
things altogether come to about 11/2d. per fall-that is 1s. 81/2d.;
and then there is dressing, 1d.
2569. When do you send it south for dyeing?-When it is made.
2570. And do you bring it back here to be dressed?-Yes; that is
an additional expense upon it, which has never been pointed out.
2571. Could it not be dressed in the south?-No, it could not.
2572. It must come back here simply for the dressing?-Yes; we
could not value it unless we got it back and sorted it, and knew the
value of it.
2573. You don't know the value of it until it is dressed?-We do
not ask ourselves the value before then. We know the average
value of them pretty nearly; but we send them south, and get them
back dyed, and then we must dress them. There are a number of
them which may be damaged, either in the working or the dyeing,
and that detracts from their value, and that very fall I am now
referring to, when it comes to be sold, will not bring more than
perhaps 2s. In that way you can calculate where our profit lies.
There are cheaper falls that do not bring more than 18d., and
sometimes even lower.
2574. Then I understand you to say that in every bargain with a
knitter, and generally with a seller, of a shawl, the understanding is
that they are to take the price in goods?-Yes; that has been so
time out of mind: I remember a time about forty years ago, when it
was different and when there were two prices on goods which they
sold.
2575. There were two prices then-one for cash, and the other for
goods?-Yes; perhaps from 20 to per cent. of difference. I
remember hearing that question discussed at my father's fire when
I was a mere youth. I have been told, although I do know it
[Page 56] myself, because I was not in the trade then, a woman
may have bought a piece of goods for 16d., when a party paying
cash for it only paid 1s. The more intelligent of, the natives
thought that was an iniquitous thing; but then it was always known
and done avowedly, and the people yielded to it. They said it was
not possible for them to take barter, and sell their goods at the
same rate because there was so much risk and outlay. That reason
never appeared satisfactory to me; and it was not until I came
behind the scenes, as it were, that I saw the reason for it was, that
the value given for Shetland goods was far beyond what it really
was worth in the market. Its real value in the market was about
the same amount less than what was charged as an addition upon
the goods. What I mean is that, supposing a woman came in with
a pair of stockings, the real market price of which was 2s., but for
which she wished 2s. 6d., the merchant, in order to secure a sale
for his goods, would give her goods in exchange of the nominal
value of 2s. 6d., but he would put 3d. a yard on the price of the
goods which he gave in exchange. That explains how it is that a
person knowing the value of the articles, seeing the purchase
which the woman might have made, and hearing the price of it,
might have said that they were about 25 per cent. too high,
whereas in reality they were not so. She had merely been getting
value for her goods, although she did not know it; and it would not
have made any difference; although it had been as many pounds
higher, while the relative proportions were kept up between the
value of the two articles.
2576. Is that done now?-Not that I know of.
2577. If a woman puts a higher price on her goods, is it not the
usual thing for a merchant to put a little additional on the price of
the goods which he is to give her in exchange?-I don't know
what other merchants do, but we never do it. Only the other day, a
woman carried out two shawls which I could have bought if I had
departed from our usual practice, but I thought they were priced
too high. I could have sold the shawls at 1s. or 2s. lower, but I
would not buy them these terms. We have one fixed price for cash
and goods. I am not aware whether the practice I have mentioned
exists now in the town; I don't think it does. When I commenced
business I made it a point fix my price in that way, and I have
always adhered that. I was told by some parties I would never do
business in that manner; but I had some faith in common sense,
and I hoped the people would come to see that they were as well
dealt with in taking the real cash value and getting the real cash
value; so that we never give a higher price than we consider the
thing is worth in the market, and we do not give lower.
2578. You say your understanding is, that goods are to be taken in
payment, but that cash is given to a small extent: do you not
consider that to be a departure from the understanding?-
Decidedly.
2579. You do that, as a favour to the knitter?-Yes; and I wish it
to be distinctly understood, that in every case when I give 1s. of
cash, I consider it is just 2d. out of my pocket.
2580. Would you not have that profit if the 1s. was spent in your
shop?-Yes.
2581. With regard to the lines or receipts which you issue, can you
say whether they are generally presented at your shop by the
parties to whom they were originally given out?-They are made
payable to the bearer, and they may not be presented by these
parties.
2582. But, in point of fact, are they generally presented by the
parties to whom they have been given out?-It is impossible to
know who they have been given out to, or who brings them back.
2583. Then what is the purpose of your keeping this register of
them?-It is a check upon the lines. If we had no check of that
kind, we would not know what lines were out.
2584. And you would not know what amount was lying out in that
way?-No; that is one reason for keeping it. Another thing is, that
if a line was lost, and its value paid to another person who had
found it, we could see by this book when it was paid.
2585. Could it show to whom it was paid?-No.
2586. I suppose the lines themselves are destroyed when they have
been settled for?-Yes.
2587. You have no means of telling from your books, whether they
have been presented by the original creditor in them, or by
another?-No.
2588. And you don't know about that from your own personal
knowledge?-As regards my own personal knowledge, I know
that, in the generality of cases, they are presented by the parties to
whom they have been given originally.
2589. Does that lead you to conclude that this system of lines is
not a new kind of currency that has been generally adopted in
Shetland?-I never heard of that.
2590. Does one of these lines pass from hand to hand, in payment
for what the creditor in it wants?-Not to my knowledge. It is
only now or lately that I have ever heard of such a thing being
done.
2591. You have not known of them being transferred to other
hands, and being presented by some one from whom the knitter
has obtained other goods or services?-There never was any such
thing stated to me.
2592. Of course you pay the value of the line to any one who
presents it?-Yes. There was a girl, Borthwick, examined here,
who said she had to sell her tea at half-price, in order to get other
things which she wanted. I spoke to her about it, and said I had
never heard of such a thing being done before, and that she must
be a great fool to do anything of the kind; for she had come to us
and said that she wanted the money, she would have got it upon
giving a small discount for it.
2593. Have you actually given money upon that discount when
requested?-I have.
2594. That is to say, one of these lines has been presented to you
and cash asked for it?-Yes; part cash. I have sometimes given
cash on these lines, although it was goods that was bargained for.
2595. The lines bear to be payable in goods?-Yes; but when I
saw that the person was really requiring the cash, and that it was
not just a 'try-on,' as it were, I took 2d. off the 1s. and paid in
cash.
2596. May that have occurred often?-No; very seldom.
2597. Has it been lately?-Yes. I was obliged to make that
deduction, because, if I had not done so, it would have opened a
door for a system which would have robbed us of every penny of
profit. If we were obliged to pay cash instead of goods, we would
have no profit at all.
2598. But that has occurred sometimes?-I think it has only
occurred twice in the whole of my transactions.
2599. When a discount is taken in that way, how is the entry made
in the line-book?-The lines are entered when they are finally paid
up. The way in which they are paid does not appear here at all.
2600. Then that discount will not appear in the book?-No; but I
may say that I often give small sums of cash on these lines without
taking a discount, where I think the person is really in need of it.
2601. I think you said these lines were very seldom given to
women whom you employ to knit for you?-Very seldom, I think.
2602. Can you name any of these women who have got them?-I
cannot; perhaps Mr. Sandison can. He is more in the way of
settling with these people than I am.
2603. Have you any dealings in stockings and the commoner kinds
of hosiery?-The price-list will show that.
2604. Is the system of dealing in these just the same as you have
already described?-The same principle applies to all the trade.
2605. That kind of goods is generally brought in from the country,
I understand?-Yes, generally.
2606. Is it the case that people coming in from the country take
goods more readily than the town?-There are very few of the
people from the country who ask for cash, but they are now
beginning [Page 57] to do it. They think the Truck Commission
will force us to give cash.
2607. What is their reason for wanting cash, if they are as well off
with goods?-I suppose it is just for same reason, that we all want
cash.
2608. But if they get goods, why should they not be content with
that?-I don't know. We have no objection to give them cash, if
they will only be content to take less of it, on the principle have
already explained.
2609. Have you ever stated to the knitters who were coming to sell
to you, that they had better take ready money and take less of it?-
I have. It would very great deal of bother if they would do so.
2610. What have they said to that proposal?-They have never
entered heartily into it. There was a case I may refer to, not of
women employed to knit for us but of women from whom we
bought shawls over the counter which corroborates what I have
already said on that subject. I cannot now recall the names the
parties, but I would know their faces at once.
2611. Were they women from Dunrossness?-Three girls came
into my shop, each of them having a shawl to sell worth £1. At
that time the noise had come up about cash payments, and I said to
them, 'Now, what would you take for these in money? I am not
saying that I will give you money, but what would you take for
them in money?' One of them said, 'Oh, I ken you will just be
going to give us money.' I said, 'Why? Don't you think the goods
you get cost us money?' She said, 'I ken that fine. I will give my
20s. shawl for 18s. 6d.' I said, I could not give her 18s. 6d. for it,
and asked her if she would take 17s. She said, 'No,' and that it
would be most unconscionable to take 3s. off the price of a shawl.
I said, 'I don't think it, because when I sell the shawl again, I can
only get 20s. for it, and then there is a discount of 5 per cent. taken
off.
2612. I suppose that bit of trading came to nothing: they did not
take money?-No; they did not money; but another one said, 'I
would not sell my shawl for 18s. 6d. or 19s. either, for I see a plaid
in your shop that I want for my shawl; and what good would it do
me to sell you the shawl for 17s., and then take 3s. out of my
pocket to pay you in addition, when you are willing to give me the
plaid in exchange for the shawl?' That was her answer to me.
2613. Was one of these women Catherine Leslie?-I think so.
Leslie was her surname, but her first name I cannot recollect.
2614. There were some payments made by you to Mary Ann
Sinclair for meal. Have you often paid accounts to tradesmen for
meal?-Not often for meal.
2615. Or for provisions?-Very seldom. We sometimes pay small
sums for such things when the people want them.
2616. But you are not able to say whether these goods are paid for
directly to the dealer or through the hands of the women?-We
sometimes pay for them to the dealer. For instance, if a woman
was due an account to a shoemaker or any other person, and told
us to pay a part of it for them, we would do it.
2617. Does the tradesman come to your shop and get the
payment?-No; we just settle with him. He may come to the
shop for it, or he may not; but it is very seldom that such things
happen-so seldom, as not to be worth mentioning. The case
of Mary Ann Sinclair to which you referred was just a cash
transaction.
2618. You remember that now?-I remember that it was a cash
transaction. She had to get cash from us to pay her meal with; but
the particulars of the transaction I cannot recollect.
2619. She wanted the meal?-Yes; she wanted it, and we did not
have it.
2620. But there were two transactions of that kind which she was
concerned; one in which she was paid 11s. 3d. for meal, and
another in which the entry is, 'Paid William Smith for meal.' Do
you recollect about these transactions?-She had to get her meal
from some one; but I really cannot say what took place
2621. I want to know what you think about the way in which these
women get their living. Have you anything to say about that?-If
Mary Ann Sinclair, or any one of her sisters, had come and said, 'I
want so much money for meal,' I would have gone to the counter
and given her out the money, and she would have gone to any one
she pleased for it; or she might have come when I was out, and she
could not get the money; or there might not have been money at
the counter at the time; and in that case I would say 'Go over to
William Smith and get half a boll of meal, and I will pay him
again.' I don't think there was any great breach of honesty in that.
2622. I do not say there was; I only want to know your opinion
about the way in which those women supply themselves with
provisions. Some of them I find are entirely dependent on the
proceeds of their knitting for getting supplies of food; is not that
so?-Yes.
2623. Now, if they take all the payment for their knitting, or the
greater part of it, in goods, I don't quite see as yet where the
money comes from with which they pay for their living. Have you
considered that point at all?-I have not. They have never
complained to me about it.
2624. Don't they say, when they come to you and beg you to give
them a little money rather than goods, that they must have
something to live upon?-I never heard that yet. It is very seldom
they ask for money.
2625. Many of them live with their parents, and are provided for
in that way; and when a woman is married, her husband provides
for her; but there are single women in Lerwick, are there not, who
depend upon their knitting mostly or entirely for their living, and
how do they manage if they are paid almost entirely in goods?-
These are the cases I have just been explaining to you. For
instance, there are the Sinclair girls.
2626. They come and beg for a little money from you in that
way?-Yes.
2627. Are there any others?-There are many others who get a
little money.
2628. Who are some of these others?-I really don't know that I
can go into the matter more fully than I have done. There are
several benevolent ladies in the town who buy knitting from these
women. They are not bound to work for us; and these ladies, I
suppose, pay them in cash. That is one of the ways in which it
may be accounted for.
2629. Do you know whether the women prefer to sell to these
ladies or to you?-They have never told me anything about that.
They just sell their goods where they think they will get the best
bargain; but there is this to be said about it, that if they had not
some place like ours, they would not get rid of one half the goods
they make. The greater part of our knitters are in the country.
2630. And they knit with their own wool?-Yes.
2631. They are mostly the daughters of labourers, or farmers, or
fishermen?-Yes; and they spend their leisure hours in knitting.
2632. You have no knowledge of the fact that there is often a want
of food among these knitting women?-I never heard that they
were really in want.
2633. Have they not stated that as a reason for your giving them
money?-No; they have been very reticent on that point if it is a
fact. I should be very sorry to know that there were any poor
persons starving when I could help them.
2634. I suppose the character of the Shetland people is such that
they don't like to confess their poverty if they can help it?-That
may be so. They may be too prudent on that point, for all I know;
but I suppose there is a great variety of character here as
everywhere else.
2635. Has this been a fair season in the knitting trade?-The
season is getting over in some departments. It is generally in the
fall that we sell most.
2636. I don't mean for the sales, but for your purchases?-Well,
the busy season is getting over.
[Page 58]
2637. I see from your line-book that on December 13th you gave
out about 20 of these acknowledgments; on the 14th, about 20
also; 15th, 18; 16th, 17; 17th, 38; 18th, 10; 20th, 24; and on the
21st, 29. Would that be a busy season of the year?-Yes; very
busy.
2638. Perhaps during the rest of the year you were not giving out
quite so many each day?-Perhaps not.
2639. The dates of payment are all entered in the book, showing
how long the lines have been in currency?-Yes; these have not
been long in currency.
2640. I see that a great number of them have been paid up on the
very day they were issued?-Yes; it was a system which I adopted
in order to prevent any mistake or trusting to memory when I
purchase a parcel of hosiery from a woman. Instead of trusting to
memory, I give her a receipt for it, and she takes it with her. She
may go anywhere else she likes, and then she comes back and gets
the value of the line from me; it may be on the same day or two
days afterwards, or it may be weeks. The greater part of these
lines need not have appeared in the book at all, because they were
paid up immediately afterwards. We might have kept a
memorandum of them in the shop, and the people might have
come and got the value afterwards. I believe other merchants do
that, but I thought it was better to give the people an
acknowledgment for their goods at the moment they brought them
in.
2641. Do these lines go mostly to women in the country or in the
town?-Just to any person who brings in goods. There is no
distinction.
2642. You cannot say that the one class of women get them more
commonly than the other?-No; I cannot say that they do.
2643. Is there any other point you wish to speak to?-I wish to
refer to a statement made by one of the previous witnesses,
Catherine Borthwick. I was present when she said that she could
get no cash, and also that there was a time when there was 5s. 6d.
due to her, and she had asked me for 1s. which I did not give to
her. I had no recollection of the transaction at the time, and I have
none still; but on referring to her account, I cannot find any
occasion on which she had 5s. 6d. to get when she came to settle.
I now show her account, from which it appears that she did get
cash.
2644. Do you remember whether her statement referred to a sale
of goods or to money that was due to her for knitting?-I
understood she referred to transactions she had had in the shop
with regard to her knitting. At least that was my impression at the
time.
2645. But if it were a sale of goods that she spoke of, that would
not be entered in your books at all?-No, not if it were a sale of
goods.
2646. Is there any other point you wish to speakto?-I should wish
to make a remark or two about the value of a Shetland shawl. It
was stated before the last Commission that a Shetland shawl could
be made for very little money. I heard Mr. Laurenson's
evidence about that, and I was rather surprised to hear that a 30s.
shawl could be made for so little as he stated, or anything
approaching to it. It certainly has not been my experience. For a
30s. shawl the worsted would cost 10s.; and if Mr. Laurenson
meant a real Shetland shawl, I should say it would cost 12s. at any
rate. I consider that the prime cost of a Shetland shawl that would
bring 30s. would be this: thirty-six cuts at 4d., 12s.; knitting, 14s.;
dressing, 6d.-in all, 26s. 6d.
2647. The 30s. at which that shawl would sell in the south would
be the price charged by the retail dealer there?-No. I don't know
what the retail dealer's charge for it would be.
2648. Then the 30s. is your charge for it?-Yes.
2649. That is 3s. 6d. you would have on it?-Yes.
2650. Is not that a profit?-Well; it is not a very heavy one.
2651. But still there is a profit?-Did I ever say that we had no
profit?
2652. I thought you rather made out that the only profit you had
was on the goods you sold?-I am speaking here of the cash value
of the thing. We don't get our wool for barter; the wool costs us
cash
2653. You allow something for interest on the price of the
wool?-Yes. I say that is what I would have to pay for a shawl of
that value in cash if I were buying it, or if I were trying to get it
made.
2654. You would pay 26s. 6d., and you would sell it at 30s.?-
Yes.
2655. Do you not call the 3s. 6d. a profit?-I do; but then in that
case there is nothing else for a profit.
2656. You are supposing that you pay the 26s. 6d. in cash? If you
were paying for the shawl in goods, would you pay 26s. 6d., or
anything more?-If I were paying for it in goods, I would pay 30s.
There might 6d. less or 6d. more; but as far as my experience goes
of this kind of goods, and selling them at a wholesale price, I could
not expect to realize a higher price for them than I pay, taking
discounts and all together.
2657. What is the kind of evidence you are to give me to prove
that there is no profit on a 30s. shawl which you pay for in
goods?-I have no evidence to offer as to that.
2658. Except your trade list?-That would be taking a wide view
of the thing. It would embrace the whole trade. The case I have
given is a special one in contradiction of the statement made,
which was a false one that a Shetland shawl could be made at that
price.
2659. The list enables you to say what you sell the articles for, and
you leave me to find out the price you pay from particular
cases?-Yes; and if an examination of my books would help you
in that, they are open to you. I am also prepared to give you the
names of a number of women who would be able to tell you what
prices they get for their goods.
2660. Can you give me any particular kind of goods which you
think would be a fair test of that?-You may take the winter
shawls, white, brown, and grey, natural colours, and straight
borders.
2661. Do you think that would be a fair test?-I think it would.
2662. But there are no entries in your books which will show at
what price you bought these shawls?-There may be. If a woman
brings in a shawl, and gets so much goods at the time, then the
balance only might be marked down, and that would be no guide
to you; but at other times the whole price is marked.
2663. That is, where there are credit balances with people who
come to you with shawls?-Yes.
2664. Which book will show that?-The day-book or women's
ledger.
2665. Is there anything else you wish to say?-I don't think there
is anything else.
Lerwick, January 4, 1872, ROBERT LINKLATER, examined.
2666. You carry on business as a merchant in Lerwick?-Yes.
2667. You purchase hosiery, and you keep a stock of drapery
goods, and tea, and other articles?-Yes. Tea is the only thing in
the grocery line which I keep.
2668. Have you heard the evidence of the preceding witnesses?-
Only of the last witness.
2669. Is the manner of conducting business in your establishment
similar to that which has been described as being carried on in Mr.
Sinclair's?-Very similar; there are some differences.
2670. You deal with knitters of two kinds-women who knit with
your wool, and those who sell to you?-Yes.
2671. In both cases are the settlements usually made by means of
goods which they take from you?-Yes, principally.
2672. In what proportion is money paid to women who knit with
your wool?-I cannot say what the proportion may be.
[Page 59]
2673. But is there a much larger proportion of the prices taken in
goods?-Yes, very much larger.
2674. Is it the general rule that it is to be paid in goods?-Yes, it is
the understanding that goods are given out.
2675. And that any money that is paid is the exception?-Yes.
2676. Is the dealing with these women usually carried on by means
of pass-books?-The greater number of the knitters whom I
employ have pass-books.
2677. And these pass-books are transcripts of the accounts kept in
your ledger?-Yes.
2678. You ledger, I presume, is kept on the principle of having a
page for the account of each woman?-Yes; or sometimes a page
for two.
2679. On the one side there are the entries of goods got by the
woman, and on the other there are entered the payments due to her
for knitting?-There is double money column which shows both
the credit and debit on the same side.
2680. How many women do you generally employ to knit for
you?-I could not say exactly; but I think there might be over 300.
2681. Are these scattered all over the island?-Yes, all over the
country.
2682. Is it a subject of complaint with these women that they do
not get payment for their work in money?-No; I have not heard
much complaint about that.
2683. The understanding is, that the payment is to be in goods?-
Yes, it is the understanding that goods are to be taken when the
work is given out; but I give a good deal of money.
2681. Is it considered a matter of favour when a woman gets
payment in money when she asks for it?-No, I don't think it.
2685. If a woman asks for money rather than goods, is it given to
her as a matter of course?-As a matter of course.
2686. Is that done whenever she asks for money?-As far as my
recollection goes, it is. The greater number of the knitters whom I
employ live in the country, and they very seldom ask for money.
When they come in with their work, I generally ask them what
they want, and they select the goods which they require.
2687. Do you know Mrs. Jemima Brown or Tait?-Yes; her sister,
Harriet Brown, is the only one I have in my books.
2688. Have you ever told Mrs. Tait, or any of her sisters, that you
could not give them money, and that you never did it?-I don't
remember doing that. I don't remember any money being asked
by them.
2689. Is it likely you said that?-I don't think I said it. I don't
think I would say it, if I had goods of hers in my hand.
2690. Did she knit with your wool?-Yes. I have no recollection
of her asking for money and being refused.
2691. I suppose a knitter of that kind is not likely to ask for money
unless there is a balance coming to her upon her account?-It is
not likely, and I think there is rather a balance against her.
2692. Is it a probable thing that you may have refused to give her
money?- I don't think I did so.
2693. May your shopman, Mr. Anderson, have done so?-Not so
far as I know.
2694. Do you issue any kind of lines or acknowledgments for the
balances upon sales made to you?-I give no lines.
2695. If a party comes and sells a shawl to you, and does not wish
goods to the whole value of it, what is done?-I understand you to
refer to goods bought over the counter; in that case I mark the
balance down in a book. If they come with a shawl or any other
article, and sell it over the counter, and if they don't wish goods to
the whole value, I mark the balance down in any name that is
given to me.
2696. In what way is that entered?-It is entered on the back of the
day-book by itself.
2697. Is there a special place in the day-book for making entries of
that kind?-Yes.
2698. They are put under the particular date?-Yes.
2699. And are these balances generally settled up within a short
time afterwards?-Generally.
2700. The party comes back soon to you for goods?-Sometimes
soon, and sometimes she delays a good while.
2701. Is it usual for a party who has a balance of that kind to ask to
get it in cash?-No; that is not usual at all.
2702. When you buy a shawl in that way, do you consider it to be
part of your bargain that the payment is to be taken in goods?-
Yes; it is distinctly sold for goods in exchange, and paid for in that
way.
2703. Is that because there is a distinct understanding to that effect
prevailing among the people, or is it stated at the time when the
bargain is made?-It is not stated at the time, but there is a distinct
understanding that payment is to be taken in goods.
2704. Will you show me the way in which these balances are
entered?-[Produces day-book.]. The entry is merely the name of
the party and the amount left. I generally put the date upon the top
of the page but not the date for each entry.
2705. Then all these entries at the end of the book are entries of
balances due by you?-Yes.
2706. And when a party comes and gets the goods, the balance is
marked as 'settled'?-Yes.
2707. Where there is a sum like 3s. 4d. or 7s. 101/2d. due, there
must sometimes be a little difficulty in making it square exactly, is
there not?-No difficulty whatever.
2708. Is there not a difficulty in getting the exact quantity of goods
to answer to that balance?-No, I don't see any difficulty.
2709. The woman may want so many yards of cotton, or a pair of
gloves, or a packet of tea, and she may bring up the sum to 7s. 6d.
or 7s. 3d., there being 7s. 101/2d. due to her; in such a case, how do
you square off the balance?-She always takes the full value of it
when she comes to settle.
2710. If the goods she gets come to something more than the
balance due to her, does she pay the rest in money?-If it comes to
anything more, she either pays it in money, or she may have
another piece of goods to sell.
2711. Suppose 7s. 101/2d. is the sum at her credit, and she takes
various articles amounting to 7s. 7d., leaving 31/2d. over, might she
not have some difficulty in selecting an article to cover that?-No,
I don't find any difficulty in that at all.
2712. I suppose you or your shopman can suggest something very
easily?-Well, there is always something required.
2713. Have you often been importuned by these women to pay
them in money, because they could not supply themselves with the
means of living unless they were paid for their work partly in
cash?-No; there are many cases where cash is given.
2714. These are cases where the people were in circumstances to
require it?-Yes.
2715. And I suppose you are acquainted with these cases?-Yes; I
generally know the people who are actually requiring money when
they ask for it.
2716. Do people often ask for money in that way?-Not often.
2717. Then there are few of them who are in circumstances to
require money?-I should not say that. I think there are many of
them who require money.
2718. Do you mean that many of them are in need of money
payments for their knitting, in order to provide themselves with the
necessaries of life?-In the town there are a good many who at
particular seasons of the year have other ways of working outside
as well as knitting.
2719. For these, do they get money payments?-Yes.
2720. Or they have friends with whom they live?-Yes; and in the
country there are a great many who live with their parents.
2721. But there are some women who depend entirely upon their
knitting for a living?-I believe there are.
[Page 60]
2722. You don't know any of them yourself?-I could not mark
out any one.
2723. But when you do meet with a woman of that description,
and have dealings with her, cash payments must sometimes be
made?-Yes; it little cash.
2724. If she takes her goods from you and only little cash, how do
you suppose she supplements her means of living?-Just in the
way I have stated, by working outside at the proper season of the
year.
2725. Is that in the fish-curing business?-There is fish-curing, but
there is other work outside besides that.
2726. Do you agree with the preceding witness, that there are two
prices for hosiery goods bought-a cash price, and a price when
paid in goods?-I very seldom buy goods for cash.
2727. But if you were doing so, would you have two prices?-I
would not give the same price in cash as in goods.
2728. Do you also agree with his statement, that where you buy a
shawl or other Shetland hosiery for goods, you do not get any
profit except the profit which you have upon the goods?-I would
not say that.
2729. In pricing a shawl, do you allow a certain margin for your
own profit?-There must be that; because we get a very great deal
of bad stock, and a good many of the things lie on our hands for a
considerable time before we can realize what they cost us, and
therefore we must have a margin for profit.
2730. There has been a statement made, that a shawl which sells in
the south for 30s. can be made in Shetland for 26s. 6d.; do you
agree with that?-Yes; from about 25s. to 26s. 6d.
2731. You think that statement is about correct?-Yes.
2732. Is that the price you would give in cash for such a shawl?-I
am not prepared to say that. Until a cash tariff comes in, I could
not decidedly say what I would give for it.
2733. Is that because of the rarity of your dealings in cash?-It is
not exactly that; I should think that there would be an ordinary
profit.
2734. I am speaking of a shawl that would sell in the south for
30s.; would the price you give for that shawl in goods be 26s.
6d.?-No; would be nearer 30s. in goods, perhaps about 28s. 6d.
2735. And if you were to buy it for cash, the price would be from
25s. to 26s.?-Perhaps about 26s.
2736. Then, if a similar shawl were made by your own knitters,
how would you calculate the cost of production? would you supply
a certain amount of Shetland wool?-Yes.
2737. How much would it require?-I think it would require about
35 or 36 cuts at 4d.-12s.; 13s. for the knitting of the shawl, and
6d. for the dressing; making 25s. 6d. That is for a white shawl,
without speaking of dyeing at all.
2738. Do you deal in the commoner hosiery?-Yes.
2739. Is the system pursued in that business the same as you have
described?-Yes.
2740. There is no difference that you think worth referring to?-
No.
2741. Do you agree generally with Mr. Sinclair on all the other
points he has spoken to?-I do.
2742. You have pointed out some differences in answer to my
questions with regard to several of the points, but you don't
remember anything else on which you incline to differ from
him?-No; I think there is very little in which I would be inclined
to differ from him.
2743. Is there anything else you wish to state?-I should wish to
make one explanation with regard to the evidence given in
Edinburgh about the cost of the worsted for a 30s. shawl.
2744. That evidence has already been spoken to by Mr.
Laurenson?-I did not hear his evidence.
2745. He stated that the worsted for a 30s. shawl would come to at
least 10s.?-If it is Shetland wool, the worsted for a 30s. shawl
would cost me about 12s.
2746. If a 30s. shawl is made with any other kind of wool, is there
a difference in the cost of the wool?-There would be a difference
of about 3s.
2747. The English wool would be about 3s. cheaper?-Yes.
2748. And the shawl would sell for how much?-I suppose for
about that much less, or about 27s.
2749. A shawl exactly the same in other respects would be made
out of English wool for 3s. less?-Yes; for 2s. or 3s. less.
2750. And it would also sell in the market for 2s. or 3s. less?-
Yes.
2751. The knitting in that case would be paid at the same rate?-
Yes.
2752. Do you buy much wool in Shetland?-We buy all the fine
wool we can get. In fact, we cannot get supplied with as much
Shetland wool as we want.
2753. You don't buy it to resell?-No; I just buy it for my own
use.
2754. Is it the fact that some of your Shetland hosiery is sold
without any profit at all?- There is some of it sold below cost
price when it comes to be bad stock.
2755. Are gentlemen's drawers, for instance, sold without a
profit?-I think they are sold at no reduction.
2756. Do you make any profit upon them?-Yes, I make a profit.
2757. You sell them south at a higher rate than you pay to the
knitters for them?-Yes; at a shade higher, some of them.
2758. I have had evidence today from one gentleman that he
bought them and sold them at a lower price. Do you think that is
the case?-It is quite possible, and I have known instances of that
with myself.
2759. Does that happen with you in some kinds of goods?-Yes;
with certain kinds of goods which are produced in larger quantities
than are required.
2760. But that over-production does not continue over a long
period of time?-It does in the knitting trade with myself. I don't
pay off any of the knitters; I keep them on.
2761. Can they not turn their attention to some other kinds of work
when there is too much stock of a particular kind?-It is generally
lacework, veils or shawls, that I give out for knitting.
2762. But when there is an over-production of that kind of goods,
can the knitters not turn their hands to something else?-They do
so occasionally.
2763. So that you have not an increasing stock of goods which you
cannot sell at a profit?-Very often they cannot get the wool with
which to make the coarser sort of goods. It is not to be got, and
there is a very large proportion of the Shetland wool sent south,
and sold as raw material.
2764. Then the women are restricted to the articles for which they
have suitable wool?-Yes; both those who knit for themselves,
and those who knit with the wool which we give out.
2765. That is to say, you have not always the kind of wool that you
want?-No; we cannot get a sufficient quantity of fine Shetland
wool; but I don't give out any wool for making coarse goods, only
the lace goods. I don't give out wool for such things as men's
underclothing and stockings.
2766. Have you anything else to say?-No; there is nothing more
that occurs to me to say.
Lerwick, January 4, 1872, JAMES TULLOCH, examined.
2767. You are a merchant in Lerwick?-I am.
2768. You keep a drapery store?-Yes.
2769. Do you sell any other goods?-The only grocery goods I sell
are tea and soap.
2770. Do you purchase hosiery?-My chief business in it is
purchasing it. I have very few knitters employed.
2771. Do you pay them in money or goods?-It is the
understanding that they are to be paid in goods; but I often give a
few shillings when they ask for it, [Page 61] both when purchasing
and when I employ the women to knit. I have only one or two
persons knitting for me in Lerwick just now, and not more than
three or four that I remember of in the country. My business in
that way is mostly done by purchase.
2772. Do your knitters have pass-books?-No; the account with
them is just kept in the day-book and ledger.
2773. You have an account in the ledger with each knitter?-Yes.
2774. Does it show what proportion of the payment to the knitter
is made in cash?-No. In some cases the price is marked in and
sometimes not.
2775. Then how do you know what you have paid if it is not
marked?-The transaction is very often carried through without
reference to the book at all, particularly in the case of a purchase.
2776. But I am speaking only of those knitters whom you employ.
I am quite aware that in sales it generally a transaction that is
finished at the time; but in the case of your knitters, how do you
know how much is paid to them in cash?-I had many more
knitters at one time than I have now, but I have given them up.
With regard to the one who is knitting for me just now, I don't
remember whether she ever asked me for any cash upon her
knitting or not.
2777. Have you only one woman knitting for you just now?-I
have only two, and one of them has had no knitting for some time.
I don't remember of either of these two having ever asked me for
money.
2778. They have an account in your books, and they take goods,
and their account is balanced now and again?-Yes.
2779. Do you sell worsted?-No. For the last few months I have
had a little of the Pyrenees wool to sell, and I have sold it.
2780. Is that extensively purchased by people who wish to knit?-
There seems to be a good deal of it wrought into small articles at
present. I have never wrought up any of it.
2781. Is it an article that is sold for cash?-Yes; but sometimes we
give it out upon the work that is brought in.
2782. There is no difficulty made about giving it out upon a
transaction of that sort?-No; not that kind of it. I never object to
give Scotch wool.
2783. But you do object to give the Shetland wool that is
purchased for cash?-Yes; we have a profit on the Pyrenees wool.
2784. Why is it called Pyrenees wool?-I don't know. It is
sometimes called Scotch wool too.
2785. Is it the practice in your shop to give workers lines for a
balance that is due upon goods sold?-Yes.
2786. What is the form of these lines?-I have one or two of them
here. (Produces lines.) It is in this form:
'I O U 1s. 3d. in goods.
JAMES TULLOCH
3. 1. 72.'
There is a private mark in the corner which is only known to
myself, showing the amount; and there is also a private stamp on
the corner, as a guarantee for the genuineness of the line.
2787. The other one which you produce is a blank form?-Yes. I
keep some of them on hand, ready for filling up.
2788. Can your clerk issue them in your absence?-Yes; he knows
the private mark too, and he puts it there.
2789. Do you keep a register of these notes?-No; they are just
given out as they are required, and goods are given for them when
they are brought in. Sometimes I have given goods for a note
which the people said they had lost or torn; but it is only as a
matter of convenience for them that they are given at all.
2790. You would rather give the goods to them at once?-Yes.
Sometimes lines are given to them when we do not have a
particular thing they want; and we also give them out sometimes
when we are in a hurry.
2791. Have you ever been asked to give money in return for these
lines instead of goods?-I cannot charge my memory just now
with any case of that kind, but sometimes it may happen. The
lines are only given out for goods purchased, and not for knitting;
and several times I have given 5s., and 4s., and 3s., and 2s., and so
on, in cash; but if they ask for much money on a shawl, the
understanding then is that I shall get it at a little less.
2792. That is arranged at the time of the sale?-Yes.
2793. But suppose the sale is concluded, and one of these lines is
given for the balance, do you then understand that the whole sum
due is to be taken in goods?-Yes. The reason why I expect to get
the shawl for a little less if large part of the price is wanted in
money, is because I never consider that I realize above what I pay
in goods for my hosiery, and very often there is a heavy discount
off. I have heard some of the other evidence which seems to clash
a little with that, but I can easily explain it.
2794. What can you explain?-The apparent discrepancy between
the value received in goods, and what the articles realize in the
market. The hosiery market is a very uneven thing.
2795. If there is anything you can explain on which Mr. Laurenson
and Mr. Sinclair have differed, I shall be glad to hear it?-Of
course it is not my business to try to reconcile their evidence, but
I was about to say that the hosiery market in the south is very
irregular. It is done to some extent by a kind of, I can hardly call it
favouritism, but there are houses in England that if they begin to
buy from one party, they will not afterwards buy from another. If
they get a very long credit, they will give a higher price, and I
know of persons they are constantly dealing with to whom they
will give 9s. or 10s., for an article, while they would only offer 6s.
or 7s. for it to another.
2796. Are you now referring to people in the south?-Yes,
wholesale dealers. And just as we may happen to get into the good
graces of a good customer, so prices vary.
2797. But every article has a different price of its own, I fancy?
You cannot price a Shetland shawl without seeing it and judging
of it both as to the material and the workmanship?-No; that is
quite true.
2798. You cannot get twenty shawls of a certain size at the same
price?-No; but we can perhaps select them out of a greater
quantity.
2799. But you cannot get twenty shawls made to order exactly of
the same value?-No.
2800. What is your reason for carrying on that system of paying
in goods?-It has been of old date. It was the practice when I
commenced to the trade; but my own impression is that if a money
system were adopted, only a very few of the producers would
accept of it, because they would, as a consequence and as a
general rule, have to take 20 or 25 per cent. less in money than
they would get in goods. We buy with the understanding that we
are to realize what we pay in goods. As I have said, sometimes for
a certain article, or in a good market, a good deal more may be
realized; but then we have the risk of loss, and we have a heavy
discount; and therefore we have to live by the profit on the goods
we sell. If we were to pay in cash, then of course we must buy at
a lower rate, so as to give us some profit on the shawl, and
consequently if a woman were to come in with a shawl, and to
agree that the price was to be 20s. worth of goods, it is not likely
that, unless she was very hard up for money, she would take 15s.
or 16s.
2801. Can you give me any instance in which you have paid a cash
price for a shawl which was lower than what you were willing to
give in goods?-I don't recollect any case of that kind just now,
except one.
2802. How long ago was that?-Not very long; perhaps a few
months.
2803. What were the circumstances of that transaction?-It was
one of these fine shawls. I don't know what I would have offered
for it, but the person said she would give it to me for £2 in money,
and it was agreed that that was to be the bargain. When [Page 62]
I saw the shawl, it did not turn out to be quite so good as I had
expected. The woman had got £1 of money at the time when the
bargain was made, and after that she had taken up some goods out
of the shop, and the balance of the price was taken out in goods.
2804. The bargain was made in that case, before the shawl was
knitted?-No, the shawl was knitted.
2805. I thought you said, it did not turn out to be quite so good as
you expected?-No, it was not quite so good when I came to see it
as I expected from hearing of it.
2806. Had you looked at the shawl before you made the
bargain?-I had seen her knitting it. I may remark, that very often
these goods turn out better than they look when they are in an
undressed state, and sometimes much worse.
2807. Have you any objection to adopt a cash system the people
are willing to agree to it?-Of course I would have no particular
objection; but my own impression is, that a cash system, if
adopted, would give a very great check to the sale of goods.
2808. Don't you think it would be better for the merchant?-I
don't know. I think a merchant would never risk so much if he
had to pay in cash, or push so hard as he does now.
2809. Would the merchant in that case not make sure of getting
two profits instead of one?-No, he would not do that.
2810. He would have a profit on his hosiery, because he would buy
it at a cash price, and sell it at a price which would pay him for his
risk, would he not?-There much competition in the trade already
that the price kept up to its utmost point. Indeed, it is kept above
what the goods actually realize.
2811. But if a man was depending upon the profit he was to get on
his hosiery, he would not pay more for it than he could afford?-
Of course he would not; but just as in other businesses, opposition
here is sometimes the life of trade, and sometimes it is the death of
trade.
2812. How do you apply that principle here?-There is sometimes
such a keen competition that people cut up one another.
2813. Do you think the competition, would be so keen that the
cash prices for the hosiery would be forced up to the level of the
goods prices that are paid now?-That would depend. Those who
had the best markets would be able to give the best, price, and no
doubt they might by that means be able to drive others
comparatively out of the trade.
2814. Is it the case, that you generally send your shawls south at
such a figure as leaves you no profit upon them?-Taking it all in
all, I never have any profit on certain articles. When I have an
opportunity of selling to a private person, or when I get private
orders, I generally realize a profit, but when I sell to wholesale
merchants taking the thing as a whole, I consider that I have never
realized the full price of my goods from the hosiery which I have
sold.
2815. Is that one of the reasons which lead you to continue the
system of paying in goods?-Of course, the system is quite
general.
2816. No doubt; but supposing it were not general, would that be a
reason for continuing it in order that you might make a profit out
of the goods you give for the hosiery?-Of course I cannot say
exactly what it might be, further than that, as I have already stated,
we had to pay in cash, we would have to buy at considerably lower
rates, and I am not aware that there is such a demand in the south
as to enable us to do that.
2817. But you say that at present you do not make a profit upon
the goods sent south?-Yes; I say that there is no profit upon the
goods sent south, taking it as a general thing. The profit I have is
upon the goods which I sell in exchange for the hosiery which I
buy.
2818. You say you generally buy shawls: you do not get them
knitted for you?-No, I have very few knitted for me.
2819. Suppose you pay 25s. for a shawl, at what price will you
invoice that to your southern customer?-Generally, I would just
invoice it at about the same price. Sometimes I am obliged to put
it lower, but when an article after dressing turns out to be better
than I expected, then I may put a shilling or so upon it.
2820. Do you keep an invoice-book?-I keep no invoice-book, but
only a day-book and ledger.
2821. The day-book shows the number of shawls you send south,
and the prices at which they are invoiced?-Yes.
Lerwick, January 4, 1872, WILLIAM JOHNSTONE, examined.
2822. You are a merchant in Lerwick in the same line of business
that is carried on by Mr. Robert Sinclair?-Yes, something similar
2823. You deal in the same articles, and purchase hosiery in the
same way?-Yes.
2824. Do you also employ knitters?-Yes.
2825. How many of them do you employ?-I can hardly tell. I
have very few just now. I have sometimes had as many as from 30
to 50, but I have not nearly so many at present. I don't think I
have a dozen altogether just now.
2826. Do they mostly live in Lerwick?-Yes.
2827. Are these knitters so employed by you paid for their work by
taking goods, or do you, sometimes pay them in cash?-They are
generally paid by taking goods. If they ask for a little cash at any
time, I will give it.
2828. Are their names entered in your books?-Yes.
2829. Has each of them an account in your ledger?-Yes; a small
book which I keep for the purpose. [Produces book.] We generally
settle for an article when they bring it in, but sometimes there may
be a balance on one side or the other.
2830. Does this book show the amount of cash that is paid for the
shawls brought in to you?-No. There are many transactions that
are never entered here at all.
2831. But does the book show the amount of cash that is paid for
shawls which are knitted to order with your own wool?-No;
when I give out wool for the knitting of a shawl, no note of it
appears in the book at all.
2832. What note do you take of it?-I merely take a memorandum
on a piece of paper.
2833. Then you may have a lot of slips of that kind lying beside
you?-No. I very likely burn them whenever the shawls are
returned, and if I know the woman sufficiently well, I may give the
wool to her without keeping any note of it of any kind.
2834. Do you trust to your memory for that?-Yes. I weigh the
wool before it goes out.
2835. What proportion of the wages of these workers is paid by
you in money?-I cannot say.
2836. Will there be a shilling in the pound paid money?-I cannot
say, but I think there will be more than that.
2837. May there be 2s.?-I cannot say exactly. Perhaps if they
come with a shawl for which they are to get 8s. or 10s., they may
get 1s. or 2s. upon it, but if they did not ask it, they would not get
it.
2838. The understanding is that you pay them goods?-Yes.
2839. Are you often asked to give some money?-Very seldom;
but whenever they ask for money, they get it, or any other thing I
have in the shop.
2840. Can you explain how women who knit for you support
themselves if they only get soft goods and tea for their knitting?-
There are very few of them who do not do other work. There may
be a few who do nothing but knit, but the greater part of the girls
and women who employ themselves at knitting have other work to
do besides. Some of them sew slop shirts for the agents shops, and
various other things.
2841. These are required for the men who go to the
whale-fishing?-Yes. [Produces day-book.] The [Page 63]
details of the goods sent south are all there. It is only the amount
that is posted into the ledger.
2842. What would be the cost of producing this one dozen socks
[showing]?-They were bought with barter for exactly the same
value of goods as is charged for them there. I have also to be at
the expense of dressing them and packing them, and then perhaps
lying out of my money for twelve months.
2843. Then you dress them for nothing?-I must dress them for
nothing.
2844. Is not that a loss to you?-Yes.
2845. And you must pay yourself for that out of the profit on the
goods which you give for them?-Yes.
2846. Is that a common thing in your trade?-I believe it is. Of
course there are some of the articles on which there is a profit.
2847. I see here 'One brown half hap shawl, 3s. 9d.:' would there
be a profit upon that?-There would not be much; perhaps there
would be 8d. on it.
2848. 'One large hap, 18s.:' would you have a profit on that?-
Yes; I might have about 2s. That article was made specially to
order.
2849. Was it made with, your own wool?-Yes.
2850. 'One white hap, 9s. 6d.?'-There might be about 1s. on that
hap.
2851. Was it bought over the counter for goods?-I think that one
was made upon an order; but it was paid for by me in goods.
2852. There is another one at 9s. 6d.?-That is one of the same
size and of the same colour.
2853. Suppose that 9s. 6d. hap had not been made to order, but had
been bought over the counter and had been settled for with goods,
what profit do you suppose would have been upon it apart from the
goods?-I cannot say.
2854. Was 9s. 6d. the price which you paid to the party selling, or
was it somewhat less?-It was 8s. 6d., and I would have a profit of
a shilling on it.
2855. That was when it was knitted for you?-Yes.
2856. But I am speaking of articles which were bought by you:
what profit would you have upon such an article then?-I could
not tell unless I knew the kind of goods they were to take for it.
2857. But apart from the goods altogether, what would you give
for a shawl that you would sell for 9s. 6d., if it was offered to you
for sale?-Perhaps I might give 9s. 6d. worth or goods.
2858. Would that be the usual way of dealing?-Sometimes it is.
It depends very much upon the quality of the article. Sometimes
we pay a dear price for them, and at other times we get them pretty
cheap.
2859. Do you say that you generally buy an article of that kind at
the price payable in goods for which you sell it to the merchant in
the south?-Very often we do.
2860. Therefore you take no profit off your hosiery at all?-In
some cases we do not. We cannot get it; we are glad to get what
we pay in goods for them.
2861. So that the fact that you get your goods disposed of, is the
inducement which you have in buying an article over the
counter?-Yes.
2862. Is that one of the reasons why this system of dealing in
goods continues?-I believe that is the very reason of it, and the
scarcity of money.
2863. Do you approve of the system, or would you rather have
cash payments?-I would rather have cash payments.
2864. In that case would you not have two profits instead of one?
You would make, sure of a profit on the hosiery, as you would be
able to pay for it in cash?-Yes.
2865. And would you not have the same profit that you now have
on the goods that you give for the hosiery?-I think we might.
2866. Would you not have a smaller profit upon them?-Of
course, if we were selling for cash over the counter, we would try
to cut the goods as low as we could.
2867. If you were selling your goods for cash over the counter
instead of for hosiery, would you reduce your prices?-We could
do that quite easily; because often we buy hosiery articles which
lie on our hands for years and the moths get into them, and we get
nothing for them at all.
2868. Therefore, in consequence of being paid in hosiery you must
put a higher price upon the drapery goods and tea that you sell?-I
do not put a higher price on them in consequence of that, because I
generally charge the same price to those from whom I get hosiery
as to those who pay me in cash.
2869. But if there was no such thing as paying hosiery with goods,
you could sell your goods a little cheaper, because you must
calculate upon a little loss on the hosiery?-Yes.
2870. So that both the customers who pay in hosiery, and those
who pay in cash, are made to pay for a possible loss upon the
hosiery?-Yes.
2871. In that way they are made to pay rather higher for their
goods?-Yes.
2872. Does not that rather show that the system is a source of loss
to the whole community?-There is not the slightest doubt about
it, but what can we do until things are put upon a better footing.
2873. You would be glad to pay in cash if you could get your
goods disposed of?-I would be very glad. For one thing, it would
save us a little trouble.
2874. There is a complicated system of bookkeeping entailed by
the present system?-There is.
2875. Have you had any balances to settle on lines or
acknowledgments or vouchers?-No; I do not give any lines. I
have always been against it.
2876. Did you give any formerly?-I gave them very rarely, unless
when I could not help it.
2877. That is to say when a person came to sell hosiery to you and
she did not want to take the whole price out in goods, you gave her
a line?-Yes; if there was a balance then they would want a line
for it.
2878. Would they not have preferred money?-They never asked
for money; at least very seldom.
2879. How long, is it since you ceased to give these lines?-I have
not given any lines for the last two years, or nearly that time, and I
just gave them occasionally.
2880. What was your reason for laying down that rule?-Because
there was such a great deal of bother about it. At a time when you
were busy they would come in and pop down their lines and that is
another secret in the line business. Some of the people like to sell
shawls and get a line for them and then they go away and give that
line to some other person, and that person comes in and orders
goods of different kinds and prices them at the lowest rate we can
give them for. Then, when they have screwed us down to the
lowest price, they throw their line down upon the counter the same
as if it were a bank-note.
2881. They do so, after having bargained and bothered with you to
get you to reduce your prices, on the footing that they were to pay
you in cash?-Yes; and of course you cannot refuse the line when
it is offered to you. You must just take it and say nothing.
2882. Was that one of the reasons why you gave up giving lines?-
It was not exactly for that I gave it up, but it was one of the
reasons, because it was a great annoyance and bother. They would
come in with the lines perhaps on mail-day, and bother us then.
2883. But a person might come in with a shawl on mail-day, and
wish to take the value of it in goods. What would you do then?-I
might tell them to come back again, and they would do it.
2884. Would they not do that if they had a line?-They would take
care of that. They would get the goods they wanted, and then they
would pop the line in.
2885. Then you think you are under an obligation to serve the
people whenever they choose, if they have a line of yours?-Yes.
2886. But if the people have bargained with you, and you had
offered them goods at a somewhat lower price for cash, and if a
line was then offered to you in the way you have mentioned,
would you not refuse to take the line in exchange for the goods?-
No, I would not. It would not be right to do it.
[Page 64]
2887. Would you not say,-If you are to pay with a line, you must
take the goods at the ordinary price?-I never thought of doing
that, and I don't think anybody would do it.
2888. You would not like to have the appearance of drawing back
from your bargain?-No; it would not look very well.
2889. Have you heard any of the evidence that has been given
to-day?-I was present when Mr. Laurenson was examined, and
also during the first part of Mr. Sinclair's examination.
2890. Do you concur generally with the statements which Mr.
Laurenson made with regard to the trade in Lerwick?-Yes; I
think he gave a very just statement.
2891. You think what he said was generally correct?-I think so.
2892. Do you know how the women who live alone, and entirely
by knitting, get their provisions?-I used to keep meal, but I don't
do it now. I cannot do it, because it destroyed my place with
moths.
2893. Do you know how these women supply themselves with
meal now?-I cannot say.
2894. Most of them are likely employed at other work as well as at
nitting?-Yes.
2895. But some of them will do nothing else?-There are very few
who do nothing else, except those who are in bad health, and who
are not able to work outside.
2896. Have you known any of these women taking goods from you
and selling them again, in order to get money?-No; I never heard
of any one doing that, so far as I know.
2897. But at the time when you gave I O U's they often exchanged
them for money?-Yes; or gave them to some other body to come
to my shop with them. These are the only cases where I knew of
them being exchanged. I heard yesterday, when I was present, that
yarn had been refused upon these lines, but I always gave them
yarn when they asked it from me.
2898. Did you give them Shetland yarn?-I seldom had it for my
own use, but I have often given them Pyrenees wool.
2899. I suppose the reason why the idea has arisen among the
knitters that they cannot get wool in exchange for their work, is
because Shetland wool is very difficult to get?-I suppose so.
2900. The merchants don't keep it for sale?-No; they cannot get
enough of it. I may say that I supply the women with sugar and
tea, and with paraffin oil when have it.
2901. I think you are the only soft goods merchant in Lerwick who
keeps sugar?-I don't know. Perhaps there are more; but I keep
sugar, tea, coffee, rice, and brimstone, which they need for
dressing their shawls.
2902. Is it the case that your purchases of hosiery are more
commonly paid in tea and sugar than in drapery goods?-The
knitters who work to me generally take what tea and sugar they
require. They also take drapery goods when they need them.
When we buy hosiery over the counter, it is generally drapery
goods that are paid for them; but they get tea also if they ask for it.
2903. The tea is made up in quarter-pound parcels?-Yes.
2904. Do you know of any case where it has been exchanged after
being purchased from you?-No.
Lerwick, January 4, 1872, HUGH LINKLATER, examined.
2905. You are a merchant in Lerwick?-Yes.
2906. Is the business which you carry on similar to that of Mr.
Laurenson?-No. I don't give out wool for people to knit. I only
purchase a little over the counter, and I do very little of any kind in
the fancy line.
2907. You do more in the coarser hosiery?-Yes.
2908. Do you deal largely in that business?-No, I don't do much
in hosiery at all.
2909. What is your business?-Selling drapery goods.
2910. Do you sell them in the ordinary way for cash?-Yes, and I
take a little hosiery when it is offered in exchange.
2911. But the bulk of your transactions are in cash?-Yes.
2912. Are you engaged in any other business?-No.
2913. Do you concur generally in the evidence which Mr.
Laurenson gave, so far as the hosiery business is concerned?-I
do. I think he gave a very fair statement of it.
2914. You do not wish to add anything to it?-No, for it is not
much that I do in that line. I may say that I don't do any in fancy
goods at all, I am not much acquainted with them.
2915. But you have a considerable trade in drapery goods and tea
for cash?-Yes, or in exchange for goods. It is principally with
country people that I deal.
2916. With small farmers and such like?-Yes.
2917. Do you find that they are generally ready and able to pay
you in cash for the goods you sell?-There are some cases where I
hate to lie out of it for a good while.
2918. But your general mode of dealing is in cash?-Yes; but if
they come forward with an article which is suitable for my hosiery
trade, I may take it and give them goods for it, the same as if they
were to pay me in cash.
2919. Money payments are the rule in your shop, and hosiery the
exception?-Yes.
2920. But when you are offered hosiery, is there a different price
charged by you for your I make no difference. I buy their hosiery,
such of it as I accept, the same as cash, and I expect to get a cash
price for it.
2921. In selling hosiery, do you put a profit upon it?-By no
means.
2922. You sell it at the price which you put upon it to the person
who brought it?-Yes, so that I can get the price of my goods.
2923. You regard it merely as a currency in which you are paid for
your proper drapery goods?-Yes.
Lerwick, January 4, 1872, JOHN MANSON, examined.
2924. You were at one time a fisherman at Dunrossness?-Yes.
2925. You are now employed on weekly wages by Mr. Harrison,
fish merchant, Lerwick?-Yes.
2926. You cure his fish when they are landed in Bressay?-Yes.
2927. You are his superintendent there and have charge of all his
men?-Yes.
2928. How many men are employed under you?-It is generally
women and lads who are employed under me.
2929. Is Mr. Harrison a large trader in the home fishing?-Not in
the home fishing; principally in the Faroe fishing.
2930. Are his fish from that fishery landed in Bressay?-Yes.
2931. How many people are generally employed there?-The
numbers vary according to the demand for work. They may range
from 80 to 60 hands daily for five months in the year, during the
fish-curing season.
2932. Mr. Harrison has a store in Lerwick, where he sells all kinds
of provisions and dry goods?-Yes, he has a provision shop and a
clothier's shop; they are different shops.
2933. Do you and the other persons employed in his fish-curing
establishment deal at these shops? Do you get your supplies for
your families there?-Not generally, unless we choose to do so.
2934. But in point of fact, do you get many of your [Page 65]
supplies there?-I buy the greater part of my groceries from that
shop.
2935. Is there any obligation upon you to do so?-No.
2936. You have never been told that you ought to do that?-No.
2937. Do you deal at the shop for ready money?-Yes.
2938. You pay for the articles as you get them?-Yes.
2939. How are your wages paid to you?-In cash.
2940. Are you paid at the end of each week?-Yes; unless when
the weather prevents us from getting across the Sound, which does
not very often occur.
2941. When you or any of your family come over to make your
market in Lerwick, and go to Mr. Harrison's shop, do you bring
with you the money which has been paid to you in Bressay?-We
are paid at Lerwick in Mr. Harrison's office, for our work; and if
we choose to go into either of his shops we can do so. We get the
cash at the office; and if we go to the shop, we pay that cash for
the soft goods or groceries which we get, but we can take the
money to any other shop we please.
2942. Is the office near the shop?-The office and the clothier's
shop are connected they are both on the same premises.
2943. Do many of the people employed under you deal at these
shops?-Not so far as I am aware. They do deal there in a certain
way, but not in a compulsory way.
2944. Is there any system of pass-books carried on there?-Not so
far as I am aware.
2945. You don't think any of them have pass books at the shop?-
I don't think it. I may mention in passing, that very often when we
get our wages, instead of being urged to buy from them, are
cautioned to use our wages in the most economical way possible,
and to go elsewhere if we think we can be better
2946. Who cautioned you in that way?-Mr. Harrison himself. I
don't mention that as giving you an idea that there is any grievance
in the way of our not getting as good remuneration for our money
in these shops as we do elsewhere, but to show the independence
of the service. We are in no way bound.
2947. I know that you have not come here because you have any
complaint at all?-No; I have no complaint to make in that way.
2948. Do you find the supplies which you get in these shops to be
quite satisfactory?-Quite satisfactory.
2949. Do you know anything with regard to the dealings at that
store of men employed, in the Faroe fishing?-Yes, a little.
2950. Is that from your own personal knowledge, or merely from
hearsay?-A little from my own personal knowledge. I know the
way in which the men deal with regard to getting their outfit when
the fishing commences.
2951. You know that they go to the store for their outfit and that is
put down in a ledger account against each man?-Yes, each man
has generally a private account for himself.
2952. The contract for the Faroe fishing is that the fisherman
makes certain supplies for the ship, and he is to get one half of the
take?-Yes.
2953. Is the price for the fish fixed at the beginning of the season
or at the end?-At the end.
2954. And no fisherman knows the price he is to get until the
settlement time comes round?-Not so far as the Faroe fishing is
concerned.
2955. During the absence of the fisherman at the fishing, are his
family generally supplied with goods from the employer's store?-
Generally; if the family are in circumstances to require supplies.
Plenty of them do not require them, but those who do are supplied
in that way.
2956. Do you mean that they are supplied with goods?-They are
supplied with goods and cash.
2957. How does it happen that some of them do not require
supplies?-A few of them live in the country, and have little
patches of land, and they do not require so much goods during the
season as others.
2958. Do you know the way in which the business is conducted as
between these fishermen and the store?-So far as I know, they
get what they ask.
2959. Do they get what money they ask?-They get money or
goods, whatever they ask.
2960. And an account runs, which is settled at the end of the
year?-Yes.
2961. Is there any obligation on these Faroe fishermen to deal at
the store?-Not so far as I am aware.
2962. Are they not obliged to deal there for their outfit?-It is
generally understood that they will take their outfit there, because
it is more like giving them an advance of money than anything
else.
2963. What is the name of Mr. Harrison's store-keeper in
Lerwick?-There is no special storekeeper; he has several
shopkeepers.
2964. But who attends to the shop?-James Mouat is in the
clothier's shop.
2965. Who gives out the stores to the fishermen for their outfit?-
Mouat generally gives them anything in the way of soft goods, and
Gilbert Harrison, junr. supplies them with what they require in the
provision shop.
2966. However you have not much experience of that part of the
business?-Not much.
2967. I suppose you don't know much about Dunrossness at
present?-Not much just now; it is ten years since I was a regular
resident there.
2968. Have you been there lately?-It is about twelve months
since I was there last.
2969. Have you relations living there still?-Yes. I have brothers
there.
2970. What was the reason for your leaving Dunrossness?-
Because I thought I could better myself elsewhere.
2971. Had you a farm there?-Yes.
2972. Have you one here?-No.
2973. When you were at Dunrossness, were you bound to fish to
any particular person?-No; I happened not to be bound at that
time, but I was singular in that respect because there were not
many who were not bound.
2974. Is it a common thing in Shetland for a fisherman not to be
able to fish for any one he likes?-It is quite common where the
landlord is also a fishcurer.
2975. Can you tell me any men who are so bound in any part of
the islands?-I think that generally the tenants on the estates of Mr
Grierson and Mr. Bruce are bound to fish for their landlords.
2976. You don't know any other case within your own knowledge
where a fisherman has been checked for fishing to another than his
landlord or tacksman?-No, not within my own knowledge.
2977. Nor for taking goods from a store other than that of his
landlord, or employer?-No; I understand that is the case in other
parts of Shetland, but only from report. I don't know it from
personal knowledge.
<Adjourned>.
[Page 66]
Lerwick: Saturday, January 6, 1872.
<Present>-Mr. Guthrie.