2030. Is your husband alive?-Yes, he is at Leith; but I have had
nothing from him for five years. I live by my own knitting; and
that is what has made me so anxious to come here.
2031 Have you any family?-I have only one son. He is sailing
out of Leith.
2032. Do you knit with your own wool?-Yes.
2033. Where do you buy it?-I buy it mostly from my friends-
some of it from my brother.
2034. Is your brother a farmer near where you live?-Yes.
2035. Do you pay him for the wool?-Yes.
2036. To whom do you sell your hosiery goods?-I always sold
them to Mr. Spence before he went away. I made fancy stockings
and knitted gloves, and things of that kind.
2037. You don't knit the fine hosiery; it is all stockings and gloves
and mittens you do?-Yes, and men's frocks. I made them for Mr.
Spence, but since he went away I have been very poorly off.
2038. He was a merchant in Lerwick?-Yes.
2039. Did he keep a shop here?-Yes.
2040. The same kind of shop as is kept by Mr. Sinclair and Mr.
Linklater?-No. He had not so much goods in his shop, as Mr.
Sinclair has, but he sometimes gave me money when I wanted it-
either money or goods.
2041. Does his sister carry on the business for him now?-Yes.
2042. Do you sell to her?-No; she is not buying anything.
2043. How were you paid for your goods?-Just middling.
2044. Were you paid in money or in goods?-Either in money or
goods.
2045. If you brought a lot of articles: and asked Mr. Spence to buy
them, he would fix a price; and if the price suited you, you gave
him the articles?-Yes.
2046. Did he pay you money across the counter?-Yes.
2047. Were you ever obliged to take goods from him?-Yes; many
a time.
[Page 40]
2048. Did he tell you he would not give you money?-No; he did
not say that.
2049. What did he say?-He just gave me anything I wanted-
sometimes money and sometimes goods.
2050. He never told you that he did not want to give you
money?-Sometimes he did so. Sometimes he was very unwilling
to give money, but he did give it.
2051. Was that pretty often?-No; not very often. My articles
were always good.
2052. Did you sometimes ask him to give you money when you
did not get it?-Yes.
2053. Is it long since he left the business?-I have never sold
anything to him since the month of July.
2054. Who do you sell to now?-I have sent what articles I have
made since to my son in the south, and he has sold them in Leith.
2055. Do you get as good a price for them there as you used to get
from Mr. Spence?-No.
2056. But your son sends you money for the goods you send to
him?-Yes; he always sends me money, and his shipmates buy
what I make.
2057. Do many women knit that sort of goods that you deal in-
stockings and gloves?-A great many.
2058. Is it mostly that kind of knitting that is carried on in your
part of the country at Girlsta?-Yes.
2059. They don't knit fine work there?-No.
2060. Who buys the sort of work they make?-Most of the
merchants do so.
2061. Do the people in your part of the country generally get
payment in goods?-Yes.
2062. Or in money?-No; they never ask for money.
2063. Why?-Because the country people are not needing it.
2064. Do they not need money?-Yes they need money; but when
they get the goods the same they always ask the goods.
2065. You think there would no use getting money for your
knitting, and just handing it back across the counter the next
minute for goods?-I suppose that is what they think; but they
would be better if they could get the money.
2066. Can they not get it?-Not very well.
2067. Why?-Because the merchants are not willing to give it.
2068. I thought you said the country people did not get money
because they did not want it?-Well, sometimes there is no use of
them getting it, and giving it back again to the merchant they are
dealing with; they might just as well have the goods, because they
have plenty of meal and other things to serve their ends, and they
are not like us, who have to buy everything. We would be glad of
the money sometimes to buy things that the merchant does not
have, or to pay our rent with; but the country people have plenty of
these things, and it is only goods they are wanting, and that is the
reason why they take them.
2069. Then you have no reason to complain of this system of
paying in goods?-We have to complain of it many a time.
2070. Why do you complain?-Because if we had money it could
answer for other things, and in other ways than when we get
goods; but we cannot get it.
2071. Is it a common subject of complaint in the country, that you
cannot get money?-It is every one's complaint; and when we
get articles, we are sorry to have to part with them for perhaps
half-price.
2072. Do you sometimes sell the articles which you get at the
shops?-Yes. I am in the habit of making very good things, and I
am very sorry sometimes that I have to give them away at so low a
price.
2073. But suppose you come into town and get goods in return for
your knitting, have you sometimes to sell these goods again?-No;
I have not done that.
2074. Is there anything more you wish to say?-No.
Lerwick, January 3, 1872, MARY ANN SINCLAIR, examined.
2075. You knit for Mr. Sinclair?-Yes.
2076. Do you knit with his wool?-Yes.
2077. Do you keep a pass-book?-No.
2078. You just settle for the work as you take it back each time?-
Yes.
2079. Are you generally paid in money or in goods?-Part in both.
2080. Do you knit shawls or veils?-Mostly veils.
2081. How many veils will you take to him in a week?-I could
not exactly say. There are four of us besides me.
2082. Do you all knit for Mr. Sinclair?-There is one who knits
besides me, and another dresses.
2083. Does she dress only your own knitting, or does she take in
other people's knitting to dress too?-She dresses what she gets to
do for other people.
2084. Does she do a good deal in that way for other people?-Yes.
2085. You cannot tell me how many veils you take: to Mr. Sinclair
in a week?-We might do three in week, each of us, if we were
able to work constantly at it.
2086. Do you work at anything else?-Nothing else-only veils;
but we are so often in trouble, that I could hardly tell you how
many we do in a week. There are three sisters and one brother of
us alive now: my father and mother are dead.
2087. Is your brother a fisherman?-No; he is in a shop.
2088. You are not a married woman?-No.
2089. How much will you get for your veils when you take a lot of
them to Mr. Sinclair? Are they sold at 1s. each?-It is generally
very fine veils that we knit, and we get 1s. 6d. each for them.
2090. How many do you take at a time to the shop?-Perhaps a
dozen, or perhaps two dozen.
2091. If you take a dozen, that would be 18s. worth?-Yes.
2092. How much of that will you get in money?-Our rent is paid
from the knitting. That, of course, is money.
2093. You have to get as much as will pay your rent?-Yes.
2094. How do you get your provisions?-We get money whenever
we ask it, besides what is taken for our rent.
2095. Are you tenants of Mr Sinclair?-Yes.
2096. You have a house from him, and he keeps your rent off what
you have to get for your knitting?-Yes; and we have sometimes
to get as high as 5s. a week from him, and we always get it.
2097. That is, for your living?-Yes.
2098. Do you get as much money in payment for your veils as you
require?-Yes; as much as we ask for.
2099. Will you manage to take a dozen veils to him in the course
of a fortnight?-Yes; or perhaps a dozen in three weeks.
2100. You are speaking both of your sisters and yourself?-Yes.
2101. How much of that 18s. as a general thing, will you get in
money?-I can hardly say. If we were to ask money weekly we
would get it: but since our brother's wages were raised, we have
not asked so often for money.
2102. That is to say, you have spent more of the produce of your
knitting in goods-in clothing?-Yes.
2103. Have you ever had to sell any of the goods that you got at
the shop?-No.
2104. Or tea?-No.
2105. You don't knit any for selling, and you never did?-No.
2106. Do you think you would be any better off if you got all the
price of your knitting in money?-I don't think it, because if I got
it in money I would just lay it down on the counter and get goods
for it.
2107. That is to say, you would get the same quantity of goods that
you get now?-Yes. Of course I would not take the money and go
to another shop with it.
[Page 41]
2108. Mr. Sinclair recommended you to come here today?-Yes;
he said he thought I should come.
2109. How much did you get for knitting your last shawl?-I think
we got £2, 10s. for our last shawl. [<Mr. Sinclair>, £2, 15s.] Yes,
it was £2, 15s.
2110. That was a remarkably large one, I suppose?-Yes it was
very fine.
2111. It was knitted by you and your sisters?-Yes.
2112. How long ago was that?-It was in the month of April or
May, I think.
2113. How much of that did you get in money?-It was just
marked in to our account, and we got the money as we asked for it.
2114. You did not tell me before that was the way in which you
dealt?-I thought I did. You asked me if I had a pass-book, and I
said it was just marked into the book.
2115. I rather understood that a settlement was made with you
each time you took in your work?-No, we have an account.
2116. And that £2, 15s. was marked into it?-Yes.
2117. You did not take any goods at that time?-I hardly think it;
but I really forget.
2118. Did you get any money at that time?-I don't think it.
2119. Did you ask for money?-No; and it was merely because I
did not ask for it that I did not get it.
<Adjourned>.
Lerwick: Thursday, January 4, 1872.
<Present>-Mr. Guthrie.
ARTHUR LAURENSON, examined.
2120. You are a partner of the firm of Laurenson & Co., Shetland
warehousemen and clothiers in Lerwick?-I am.
2121. That is the oldest house in that business in Shetland, is it
not?-I believe it is.
2122. The other partner of the house is your brother-in-law, Mr.
William Bruce Tulloch?-Yes.
2123. You succeeded your father in the business?-Yes. I was in
business with him for a good many years before his death.
2124. Besides carrying on that business, you also act as a trustee or
factor?-Yes; in bankruptcies. I am also treasurer for the Shetland
Widows' Fund under Anderson's Trust.
2125. And in that capacity you have the management of a
considerable income to be devoted to charitable purposes?-Yes; I
am a member of the local committee. There are three other
gentlemen on the committee. And I am also treasurer, and have
been so for a long time. I was appointed by Mr. Anderson in his
lifetime, and I have always been so since.
2126. In the Shetland hosiery business you get the goods from the
women knitters, who I believe are of two classes: those who knit
for you, and those who sell to you?-Yes. There are those who
bring the article and just exchange it over the counter. The greater
part of our business now consists in the exchanging of goods,
rather than in the employing of women to knit for us. Some years
ago we were more in that way than we are now. Our principal
business now just consists in buying their own productions, or
rather, I should say, in the exchanging of them.
2127. By using the word exchanging, what is it that you mean to
imply?-I mean to make a difference between that and buying for
actual cash. If I were using the word, buying, it might convey the
idea that we pay cash down. When I say exchanging, I mean that
they bring us the article, and we give them other articles in
exchange for it.
2128. By that you mean to imply that the transaction is understood
as a barter?-Precisely.
2129. What is the character of the stock that you keep?-Drapery
articles altogether, and general soft goods. The only grocery goods
we keep are tea and soap.
2130. And the exchanges which you make with your customers for
their hosiery are of drapery goods, tea, and soap?-Yes.
2131. Are these purchases made chiefly from women who live in
Lerwick, or from women who come from the country?-Part of
both. We deal principally with women from the country. The
Lerwick women only make fine goods, such as shawls and veils, as
a rule, although some of them do make underclothing too.
2132. That practice of barter has, I understand, been of long
continuance in Shetland?-Long before my memory. I suppose, as
Mr. Walker humorously remarked in his evidence, it has probably
prevailed since the days of Adam.
2133. Is any proportion of the payment now made in cash?-
Sometimes it is; and that custom, I think, is a growing one. When
I first came into the business with my father, it was, I may say, an
unheard of thing to give any cash at all,-such a thing was not
thought of or expected by the women; but now for a good many
years-I should say for ten or twelve years-the custom has begun
to give a certain portion of the price in cash, and it seems to be
gradually increasing,-that is to say, each year we are paying more
in cash than we did in the previous year.
2134. Is that because more cash is asked?-Perhaps it may be, and
it may also be from a greater readiness on the part of the dealers to
give it. I don't mean to say, by any means, that it is the rule to
make cash payments; but I say that the custom of making
occasional cash payments, at any rate, is getting more common.
2135. Are you speaking from your experience your own business,
or do you speak generally?-I am speaking of my own experience,
but I presume that will be the experience of others in the trade as
well.
2136. Formerly people did not use to ask for money at all?-No.
When I went first into the business it was never thought of.
2137. At that time was the trade one of purchase, or was it one of
manufacturing for the merchant?-I think it was pure barter.
2138. It was barter in either case, but was the trade usually carried
on by purchases from people who knitted their own wool?-I
think in former times it was altogether that. It is only within the
last twenty or thirty years that the women have been employed, so
to speak, by the merchants. It was about 1840 or 1841 that the
making of shawls began to get very common here; and about 1845
or 1846 there was a very great demand for them. After that the
veil knitting commenced, about 1848 or 1849, and from 1852 to
1856 there was a very great trade done in veils. These are the
dates, so far as I recollect them.
2139. Shawls and veils are the staple articles of the Lerwick
women's manufacture?-Yes; and they also make country hosiery
of different sorts.
2140. That is the coarser hosiery?-Not necessarily coarser, but
stockings and fine underclothing for both ladies' and gentlemen's
wear.
2141. Under the description of shawls I suppose you include the
cloaks which are made?-Yes; opera-[Page 42] cloaks, mantles,
and squares. There is a great variety of them made, in different
styles.
2142. At present are you in the habit of giving cash whenever it is
asked?-I am.
2143. Do you remember, during the last few years, of having
refused to give money to any person who asked for it?-I have no
recollection of doing so for a good many years back.
2144. Have the people in your shop any instructions on that
point?-My assistants would not give cash without coming to me,
because such a transaction has to be entered in the cash-book. If
there was any cash to be paid, they would come to me for it, so
that I might enter it. It would not be paid out of the ordinary
shop-till, because we have to keep an account of it.
2145. But they would be at liberty to purchase hosiery and pay for
it in goods without consulting you?-Either my brother-in-law or
myself would fix the prices.
2146. Then none of your people have authority to purchase?-
No; they would not purchase without consulting me or my
brother-in-law.
2147. So that either of the partners must be in the shop, or must be
consulted in every case of purchase?-Yes.
2148. Do you give the same answer with regard to cases in which
parties employed by you are returning their work?-Perhaps any
small sums of money, such as 6d. or 1s., they might get in my
absence; but if it was anything larger that was desired, they would
be asked to wait until either I or my brother-in-law came in.
2149. But in that case, if they wanted to take out the whole value
of the article, they might get it in goods, in the absence of you and
your brother-in-law?-Yes, they might.
2150. Does it depend upon the state of their account, whether they
would get the whole value in goods or not?-No. Most of them
have been long known to us, and even if they were in debt (which
sometimes happens) to a small amount, it would not matter much,
if they wanted anything. I may mention, as an instance illustrating
that, that last night a girl called and asked me for some money to
pay the police assessment which had been charged upon her father.
She said her father was not able to pay it, and they had no money
in the house, and she asked for money to pay it with. Money is
often wanted in that way, and of course I gave it to her.
2151. Had she a pass-book with her?-No; she just came in with a
small article of fancy knitting which she wanted to sell, and she
sold it and got the cash for it.
2152. Did she get the full price in cash?-Yes. She told me what
she wanted the money for. Of course I did not ask her or insist to
know what the money was for, but she mentioned it incidentally.
2153. How much was the price of that article?-It was a small
thing, 8s.-a pair of lace sleeves for ladies' under-dresses.
2154. Would you say that that was a transaction of a very usual
kind?-No; I should not say it was very usual.
2155. But if that had been asked at any time during the last three
or four years, would the same result have followed? Would she
have got the money?-I think so, with me, if the request had come
from the same person, or from a person who had been long
employed by us.
2156. That case you have mentioned was one of sale?-Yes.
2157. It was an article made with her own material?-Yes; it was
her own material and her own article altogether. I have just
mentioned it, as the latest thing of the kind that has occurred.
2158. Do you know a Mrs. Williamson who lives at the
Asylum?-I think there are two Mrs. Williamsons in the Asylum:
there is a Mrs. Williamson who has been there since the Asylum
was opened, and there is another who has come there quite lately,
within the last twelve months. If the question you are to put has
anything to do with knitting, it will probably refer the last one.
The first Mrs, Williamson is in very good circumstances, and I
don't think she would be employing herself in that way.
2159. I speak of one who knits with her own wool, and knits fine
articles.-I am sure to know her if she is an inmate of the Asylum,
though I could not just identify her at present.
2160. Then you don't know whether she knits to you?-She does
not knit to me.
2161. Or sells goods to you?-She may come into the shop to sell
goods as any other woman does, but I have no recollection of
anything of the kind.
2162. Is there another Mr. Laurenson in Lerwick?-There is a firm
of R.B. Laurence & Co.
2163. Do they sell provisions?-I don't know.
2164. Do you sell bread?-I sell nothing except general drapery
stock, and the other articles I have mentioned. There is a Mr.
Laurence, a baker, and his sons are the firm of R. B. Laurence &
Co.
2165. Does Mr. Laurence buy hosiery?-Not so far as I am aware.
He was in business as a hosier some years ago but he is now only a
grocer and baker.
2166. Did you buy a shawl for 80s., about three months ago, from
a Mrs. Williamson who lives at the Asylum?-Not to my
recollection. If there is anything particular about the transaction,
that might enable me to remember it.
2167. You did not purchase such a shawl, and pay part of the price
in bread?-No; I could not have done that. I may mention that the
name of the firm of R. B. Laurence & Co. is generally pronounced
by the people here in the same way as my own, they speak of them
as Laurenson, although their names are Laurence.
2168. Have you sometimes paid large sums in cash for shawls?-
Very often, in separate transactions. I have frequently paid cash
down for particular shawls worth £2 or £2, 10s. I have given as
much as £5 in cash for a single shawl; but that, of course, was very
special article.
2169. Would you make any objection to paying so much in
cash?-No; but I would be pretty sure the article was worth it.
2170. In the case you have just now referred to, was it necessary
for the woman to make any particular representation as to her
wanting the cash before she could get it, or was she asked to take
the price in goods?-No; I did not ask her to do that. Probably
when she produced the article, she said she wished to sell it for
cash, and so the price was fixed.
2171. Does a demand of that kind for payment in cash affect the
price for the shawl?-Certainly. We could not give so much in
cash as we could give in goods; and if a cash tariff were adopted,
there would have to be a general deduction made all round-a
deduction equivalent to the ordinary retail profit in the drapery
trade.
2172. Do the sellers of these hosiery goods to you understand that
if they demand cash they must take a smaller price?-Yes, they
understand that; and they would be quite prepared to take it.
2173. Is it quite understood that there are two prices for these
articles-a cash price, and a price in goods?-Yes; I think that is
quite understood. Of course, if a woman comes in with a shawl
for which she is willing to take 20s. in goods, she would be equally
willing to take 16s. or 17s. in cash, because the difference between
the 16s. or 17s. in cash and the 20s. in goods represents the retail
draper's profit, which is supposed to run from 15 to 20 or 25 per
cent. on these articles. That is the case over all the kingdom.
2174. Would not the result to the woman be, that if she took the
17s. in cash she would only be able to buy 17s. worth of goods
with it?-Well, that is true; but she might be requiring grocery
goods or meal, or some kind of articles that we don't keep in our
drapery shops. Of course there would be an advantage to her,
because she might be requiring the cash in order to help her in
paying her rent, or anything of that kind.
2175. In that way, does it not come to be a disadvantage to the
women to take cash?-It cannot be a disadvantage if they require
it for these other purposes. [Page 43] It would not answer them at
all times to get drapery goods.
2176. Is it an advantage to you, as a dealer in hosiery, to pay the
price of the hosiery in goods?-Of course it is an advantage to us,
as retail drapers, to sell as much of these goods as possible.
2177. But is it any advantage to you, if by buying for cash you are
to get the same profit upon your hosiery goods on a re-sale of
them?-There is this to be considered: that if we were buying for
cash exclusively, then we would only buy such things as we were
actually requiring, either for orders which we had, or which we
thought were likely to sell; but according to the present system,
although I don't mean to defend it altogether, we might have a
pretty large stock, and have really no orders, and no immediate
prospect of selling them. At the same time, so long as it is a
system of barter or exchange, we can quite easily give goods of
one description over the counter in exchange for goods of another
description,-for this reason, that these goods of another
description, which are received in exchange, can be stored by us as
well as our drapery goods. At such times we would not be willing
to pay anything in cash.
2178. Then what you mean to say is, that the opportunity of selling
your drapery goods is an inducement to you to increase your stock
of hosiery although the market may be unfavourable?-Exactly;
because we have already invested our cash in these drapery goods,
and we may just as well have that cash lying in Shetland hosiery as
in drapery goods, in many cases.
2179. If you did not pay in goods, would the result be that you
might still purchase the hosiery, but at a much lower rate?-That
would be one result of it; and another result would be, that when
the Shetland hosiery trade was dead, as it very often is for many
months, we would have then to give up buying altogether. At the
same time, I don't say but what an entirely cash system would
ultimately be advantageous to both parties,-both to us as dealers,
and also to the women knitters.
2180. In what way do you think that that?-I think it would
simplify the thing, and prevent a good many disagreeable
occurrences. In fact the present system is a complicated,
antiquated sort of thing; and I, for my own part, would be willing
if some plan could be adopted for introducing a cash system
altogether. It certainly would be simpler, and I have no doubt it
would ultimately come to be as convenient to us all; but you will
please to observe that the present system is just a continuance of
an old traditional system that we who are now in the trade found
existing when we came into it, and it is rather difficult to get it
changed.
2181. Do you think it is any advantage for the women to be able to
get 20s. in goods rather than 16s. of cash?-It think it would be
better for the women to be always paid in cash.
2182. For what reason?-Because they would then have the cash
at their own disposal, and they could do with it what they liked.
They might buy their goods from me or from any other body, just
as they pleased.
2183. Do you think they could manage their cash better?-I don't
know, but at any rate they would be more independent. If they did
not choose to deal with me, they could go to any other shop where
they thought they could lay it out to better advantage.
2184. Is it the fact that they cannot get the price of their goods in
cash just now?-I believe, as a general rule, that is quite true. I
have heard the evidence of two or three of the girls who have been
examined on previous days with regard to that.
2185. I am speaking now entirely of the purchase system. I will
ask you something afterwards with regard to the system of knitting
with the merchants' own wool; but you understand that you have
hitherto been speaking about the system of purchasing?-Yes;
hitherto I have been referring to the exchange of articles over the
counter.
2186. Your general observations have applied to both systems?-
Yes, to both.
2187. Speaking then, in the meantime, about the purchase system,
there is now in point of fact a difficulty in getting cash?-There is
no doubt of that, because it is the custom of the trade, and has all
along been, that these hosiery articles should be paid for in goods.
That is known and understood on both sides.
2188. Will you tell me exactly where the advantage to the woman
lies who sells her hosiery for 20s. in goods rather than for 16s. in
cash? Are these 20s. of goods worth more to her than 16s. in cash
would be-I mean, apart altogether from the question as to
whether she wants other goods than hosiery?-Is the money value
of the 20s. worth of goods greater than 16s. in cash?-The money
value of them cannot be greater, because the retail profit is
included in that.
2189. Yes, but the money value to you is one thing, and the money
value to the woman may be another?-I assume, as a general rule,
that all the goods which the women take they are actually
requiring.
2190. Is that the fact?-I heard some statements made here by
some witnesses yesterday, and I suppose they were quite correct,
since the women made them, but I was not aware of it before, that
they had to take goods and re-sell them afterwards.
2191. You were not previously aware of the existence of such a
practice?-No; I was not aware of it until I heard it deponed to
yesterday.
2192. You say there are periods of depression in the Shetland
trade?-Yes; for many months there is little or no demand for
Shetland goods, and at such times our stocks lie over and
accumulate.
2193. In such a period of depression I presume that your prices,
whether in money or in goods, are lower than at other times?-
They naturally tend downwards, as in all other trades, because in
many cases we really don't want the goods. Having quite
sufficient and more than sufficient of the article, we don't want
any more of them; but very often we take them, just as you may
say, to oblige the women, and give them tea for them, or things
which they may actually be requiring, although we may have no
prospect of selling these articles for a year or so.
2194. Is there not a difficulty in the trade also from the nature of
the articles which are made?-There is a very great difficulty in
that respect, owing to the want of uniformity in the articles, and
the great variety of them. You can never get two shawls alike; you
cannot even get a dozen pair of half-stockings alike. If you were
to get an order for twenty dozen socks of a particular colour, size,
and price, you would not be able to get that number of socks alike
in Shetland.
2195. The result of that is, that you cannot give a large order?-
We cannot undertake to execute it; and it is only such houses in
the south as are acquainted with the Shetland trade, and who know
that, when they give an order for a certain quantity of goods, they
must get them varied in colour and in quality, and who make up
their minds for that, and don't expect anything else it is such
houses who generally deal in Shetland goods.
2196. Does that fact, and the want of knowledge of that fact,
restrict the number of houses in the south with which you can
deal?-There is no doubt of it. Suppose an English house, who
had never done anything in Shetland goods before, were to send
down an order for a certain quantity of goods, they would expect
to get them as uniform as if they were sending that order to
Leicester, or any hosiery district in the south.
2197. In what way does that affect the system of paying in
goods?-There are limits to the demand. It affects the market.
We don't have such a large market.
2198. And it increases the inducement to merchants to make their
payments in the drapery goods which they sell, and upon which
they have another profit?-Exactly.
2199. I suppose the reason for paying in goods is really, that you
manage to make two profits: the profit upon the drapery, and then
the profit upon the re-sale of the hosiery?-For the most part, we
have to be content with one profit. No doubt, like all other men,
we would be glad to make two profits if we could; but I think it is
a rule in the Shetland hosiery trade, that [Page 44] the dealer is
quite content if he gets the price for the hosiery goods which he
would have paid for them in cash, even with a very good discount
off; that is to say, with £10 worth of Shetland hosiery, for which he
had paid that sum in goods, he would be willing to sell them for
£10 in cash, and 5 per cent. off for cash. He would not expect to
get a profit on the hosiery also.
2200. Do you mean to say that a lot of hosiery purchased for £10
you would sell to a merchant in the south for £10, and give him 5
per cent. discount besides?-Yes.
2201. Then you would make a loss?-No; because we have paid
the £10 in goods at retail prices, and we have the retail profit on
them, which is more that 5 per cent.
2202. You mean that you have a profit on the goods?-Yes; the
goods amounting to £10, for which we have got the hosiery.
Perhaps the profit on these goods is 15 per cent.; and if we sell the
hosiery afterwards for £10, and take off 5 per cent. for cash, we
still have 10 per cent. for our trouble.
2203. That comes to this: that, keeping it apart from your trade in
goods, you make no profit upon the hosiery at all, but you will pay
5 per cent. discount to a wholesale merchant in the south for
paying it promptly?-Yes; and I believe, in some cases where the
dealers in Shetland don't have good connections in the south and
good markets, they generally sell at a much lower price. I believe
it is quite common in the Edinburgh auction-rooms for parcels of
Shetland hosiery to be exposed for sale, and sold at a rate much
lower than they could be sold for in Shetland. That, I suppose, is
done by dealers who are pressed for cash; and they have to sell
their hosiery stocks at any sacrifice, at what they can get for them,
because they cannot get them sold in the regular market at a profit.
2204. Does it not seem to you that it would be a more reasonable
way, in such a state of matters, to reduce the price of your
hosiery?-It would be better to introduce a system of cash
payments.
2205. But, whether there was a system of cash payments or of
payment in goods, would it not look better in your books, and
would it not be the natural way of dealing, to purchase the hosiery
only at such figures as would enable you to make a profit upon
it?-Yes; that would be better, decidedly. It might practically
make very little difference to the dealer; it would just be taking it
out of the one pocket and putting it into the other, but it would be
more business-like, and a simpler plan.
2206. Is it not one result of that system, that as the merchant runs
two risks,-a risk upon the hosiery and a risk (not so great, but still
a risk) upon his goods,-he is obliged to make a larger profit upon
his goods than he otherwise would?-I believe that is so.
2207. So that the goods are really dearer to the retail purchaser
here than they would be if another system were adopted?-I think
2208. You say you are quite ready to adopt a system of cash
payments, and to carry it out if it were usual in the trade?-Quite
ready.
2209. Is there any difficulty in a single house proceeding to act
upon that system?-There has been no proposal made for it.
2210. Do you mean there has been no demand made for it by the
sellers of hosiery?-I mean there has been no proposal made
among the dealers in hosiery to adopt such a system; and it would
be difficult for one house to begin to attempt it unless there was
some plan agreed upon, and some tariff of prices. I think it would
be necessary, in the first place, to have some scale fixed.
2211. Would the market not fix the prices just as it does in other
trades?-By and by I have no doubt it would; but what I mean is,
that at the beginning of the new plan, in the transition between the
present state and a new system of cash payments there would
require to be some sort of agreement.
2212. With regard to those women whom you pay for working, do
you generally keep pass-books with them?-I don't think many of
them have them now. In fact, within the last seven years we have
not been very much in that branch of the Shetland hosiery trade.
We still have a few knitting to us in that way, and I think some of
them have pass-books.
2213. How many women do you employ in that way?-I could not
say precisely, because for several years our shop-woman has
attended to that altogether, and the books which I have brought
with me are kept by her. I can give her name, and she will be able
to give any information that may be wanted on that subject.
2214. What is her name?-Andrina Aitken.
2215. I suppose your books will show at once the number of
people you employ in that way?-Yes, these books will show, but
I cannot say from memory how many there are.
2216. Has not each woman whom you so employ a page in the
ledger?-I think, for the most part, they just settle for each article
as they bring it. If a girl or woman is knitting a shawl, she comes
in with it; there is a price put upon it, and she settles up there and
then for it. If there is a balance, whether for or against her, it is
noted up as at that date. We don't keep long accounts with them.
2217. How is it noted?-It is noted in the book at the place where
the work is marked as having been given out. The balance is
stated there [produces book].
2218. What is that book?-We call it a work-book.
2219. Is it kept as a day-book from day to day?-Yes.
2220. Is that the only book you keep?-It is the only book used for
that purpose.
2221. Therefore you keep accounts, because when a balance
stands against a woman you have to look back to where the
balance is?-Yes; and where work is given out again, the balance
is marked against her, that balance being agreed upon between the
shop-woman and her.
2222. Is there any index to the names of the women in that
book?-No; the girl knows them all.
2223. I see that the entries on two pages of it serve for a month?-
Yes; the entries from December 5 to January 2 are all on two
pages. These contain all our transactions with that sort of people,
and it shows that we have very few of them.
2224. I see here an entry: 'December 5-Barbara Hunter, 11/4 oz.
black mohair. D. 1s.-retd.' Will you explain that entry?-D.
means debtor. It means that the woman got supplies to the extent
of 1s. The 11/4 oz. black mohair was the worsted which she got at
that time to knit up. Then on the 21st she comes back and returns
it. At that time there is this entry: December 21-Barbara Hunter,
11/4 oz. black mohair. D. 1s. 4d., D. 6d.
2225. What does 'retd.' mean in the first entry?-It means that the
work was returned on a certain day. The return would be made on
the 21st, when she got out the same quantity of additional stuff,
and then the balance is carried forward.
2226. Are there any entries in your books showing how the D. 1s.
or the D. 1s. 4d. was made up?-No; I could not even tell what it
was for.
2227. But it was a balance upon goods supplied to her?-Yes. It
may have been tea, or some small sums of cash, or anything. Our
shop-girl would go over it with her, and they would agree upon it
that this was the balance due at that time; and then, when she came
back with the work she had got out on the 21st, there would be
another balance.
2228. Here is another entry: 'December 15-Christina Sinclair, 2
oz. black mohair. D. 1s. 4d., D. 13s. 3d., D. 5s. 1d.-retd.' How
does it happen that, under the same entry and in the same line,
there are three separate sums?-The girl came on separate
occasions and got these supplies, and they have been, entered
separately. She has been back since then, because the work which
she got out at that time has been returned.
2229. Then follows the entry: 'December 26 [Page 45]-Christian
Sinclair, 2 oz. black mohair. D. 10d. (in pencil), D. 11s. 11d.'
The 11s. 11d. would be the balance on the previous three debtor
entries, and the 10d., I suppose, had been got subsequently?-I
presume it had been quarter it pound of tea for 10d. Christina
Sinclair lives in Hancliffe Lane.
2230. Does she support herself entirely by knitting?-She lives
with her father. She knits a good deal on her own account, and
comes and sells it to us. These had been some veils and other
things, which she makes for us occasionally when she happens not
to have worsted of her own.
2231. The 11s. 11d., I think you say, shows a balance upon goods
got by her?-Yes; I presume it is the balance, after deducting what
she got for that work.
2232. What would she probably get for the work bestowed by her
upon 2 oz. black mohair?-I suppose that would make four or five
veils. Perhaps she might get 5s. Then, besides these little things
which are entered there, she might have got some things when she
was personally present, and the last balance would be struck upon
the whole.
2233. I understand you to state quite distinctly that this book is the
only one in which entries are made of any transactions with
workers employed by you?-The only one. As I said before, we
do very little in that way now; and this represents the whole of it.
2234. Do your sales to these women not appear in your shop
day-book?-No; these are the whole entries. If they get anything
when they come with their work, there is no entry made of it at all.
2235. If a woman, either a knitter employed by you, or one who
sells to you, comes to your shop and has a large sum of money to
get, is it the practice that you do not pay her entirely in goods, but
give her an advance in cash; or is it sometimes your practice to
give her a line?-We don't give lines at all; but I may say that it is
very seldom any of them have very much to get.
2236. If a woman has something to get and does not want goods,
do you make an entry of any kind to her credit similar to those
debtor entries against her?-I see here an entry: 'December 26-
Ann Anderson, 2 oz. black mohair. D. 5d., Cr. 7s. 6d.' That 5d.
has been got afterwards.
2237. Then she could have come at any time and got that 7s.
6d.?-Yes; and more if she had wanted it.
2238. That sum is probably standing to her credit yet?-Yes; she
has that to get just now.
2239. If she had got it, in what way would it have been marked
out?-It would have been marked returned, and another entry
made of the new work which she had got.
2240. I show you an entry in another part of the same book: what
does that mean?-It is a memorandum of the goods given to
women to dress. These are the goods given to Mrs. John Gifford.
They are marked down when they are given out, and when they are
returned they are marked out. There are more dressers than one.
2241. Here is one entry: 'January 3-Mary Greig, Trondra, 9 oz.
black. D. 8d., Cr. 7s.' Was that a country girl?-Yes.
2242. Is it not usual for country girls to take away all the value of
their goods when they come in with them?-I think that is
generally what they do; but sometimes, as in that case, the girl
does not seem to have been requiring anything.
2243. You don't know whether that girl asked for money?-I
don't know; but the shop-girl would be able to tell.
2244. You have no doubt that if she had asked for it, she would
have got it?-If she had asked for it, she would have got it; but, as
I have said before, it had been so long the custom not to pay
money, that they did not ask it, not expecting to get it.
2245. Do you say that your profit upon your drapery goods is
calculated at about 15 per cent.?-I should say about 15 to 25 per
cent.; that is the ordinary retail profit over all.
2246. Supposing you were to make a profit upon your hosiery
goods, what profit would you expect to get from your drapery
goods?-I understand that in the south the profit in the drapery
trade is generally estimated at 15 per cent. on an average.
2247. And you make it vary here, according to the different goods,
at from 15 to 25 per cent.?-Yes.
2248. Is that in order to cover your risk upon the hosiery?-Yes; I
should say so. It would be much better for us to sell for cash
down, with a smaller price, than to sell at a higher nominal price,
and to lie out of the money for perhaps a couple of years, and
perhaps run the risk of making a bad debt with the hosiery. I may
add that we sometimes do make bad debts to a pretty large
amount. Some years ago I lost £150 by one customer.
2249. Was he a purchaser of hosiery?-Yes.
2250. Show me any entry in this book relating to a shawl made for
you?-There [showing] is 7 oz. black, which was given to a
woman for a shawl which she is at present making. Here is
another, Mary Greig, who made a black shawl, and returned it.
2251. Does the book show how much was the payment usually got
for the making of it?-She came back on 23d January, and she is
credited with the amount. She had 2s. to get when she got the
work to do.
2252. And she has now 7s.; but the difference between 2s. and 7s.
does not show the payment to her?-No; because she might have
got more goods at the time, and there would be nothing put down
in the book then except the actual balance.
2253. You don't know what goods she got?-No; but I have no
doubt the shop-girl will be able to tell.
2254. Can you tell me what payment would be made to a worker
of that kind for such a shawl?-I think perhaps 10s. It depends a
good deal on the size of thread and on the style of knitting. Of two
shawls of the same size, and having the same weight of wool in
them, one may be worth 2s. 6d. more for knitting than another, on
account of the pattern the girl might put into it, and the style in
which it was done.
2255. Then that shawl would be sent south, I presume?-We
might sell it here.
2256. What do you consider the value of the material for that
shawl, 9 oz.?-That black worsted would have cost us in England
about 8s. a pound.
2257. Then the worsted would come to about 4s. 6d. as the value
of the material?-Yes.
2258. And 10s. for the work: that would be 14s. 6d.?-Yes.
2259. And 6d. for dressing, or 15s. altogether?-Yes.
2260. At what price would that shawl be invoiced to a customer in
the south?-It would depend upon whether it was to a wholesale
house or to a retail customer. We have to sell these goods at a
lower price to wholesale houses in the south, who have again to
sell them, than we would sell them for to others.
2261. In that way there are two classes of customers?-Yes.
2262. Who are your principal correspondents in the south?-[The
witness shows the names in a book.] This is the day-book, which
we use exclusively for our transactions in hosiery with the south.
That book has just been finished. The last entry is 6th November
1871, and since then our entries as to hosiery sent south have gone
into our ordinary shop day-book: we have not provided a separate
book for them.
2263. You say that you have two classes of customers, wholesale
and retail?-Yes; we have wholesale customers, such as these
houses whose names I have pointed out to you. We also sell to
private persons, and of course we must make a difference. We
must sell to these wholesale houses at a much less figure, because
they have again to sell them perhaps to the very same retail
customers.
2264. At what price would that shawl of Mary Greig's be invoiced
to the south?-It is not away yet but I think I will be able to find
some of the same [Page 46] kind. It is very difficult to say what it
would be, because there is such a difference in the quality of the
worsted, and the price of the raw material differs a good deal. For
instance, here is black Pyrenees wool, costing about 8s. a pound,
and here is black mohair wool, 27s. a pound. It would cost us
roughly about 2s. an oz.; but that shawl, I should say, would be of
Pyrenees wool, costing about 8s. a pound. That [showing an entry
of a shawl invoiced to a house in London at 20s.] would be
something like it. I may mention that an account like that won't
be paid for eighteen months, and then it will be paid with a
discount of 5 per cent.
2265. Is that a fair specimen of the average sales of shawls?-Yes.
2266. And the average difference between the cost for materials
and workmanship?-Yes.
2267. Do you pay the freight?-The consignee pays the freight.
2268. Is this day-book a copy of your invoices which you send to
these houses?-Yes. In some cases we copy the invoices in a
letter-book, and then re-write them into this day-book. I can
produce the letter-book if you wish to see it.
2269. Does not that difference between the price marked in the
book and the price you have to pay for materials and workmanship
show something in the shape of profit?-Yes, undoubtedly.
2270. Then how do you reconcile that with your previous
statement, that there is really no profit upon your hosiery?-I don't
think I meant to say that there really was not a profit. What I
meant to say was, that, as a rule we would be very well pleased, on
an average of all our hosiery goods, just to get what we pay for
them. Of course, if you take out a special article here and there,
the rule might not hold good; but I think, on the whole, you will
find the result to be as I stated.
2271. Do you make any distinction, in your statement with regard
to profits, between those cases where an article has been made for
you and those in which it has been purchased by you?-I think, as
a rule, the articles which we purchase or exchange over the
counter are generally sold by us just for what we have paid for
them. The others we have a good deal more trouble about. The
raw material has to be ordered, and the money paid for it pretty
soon; and then it has to be given out, and these accounts kept, and
the articles have to be dressed. In fact we have three or four times
the trouble about articles of that description which we have with
regard to articles that we buy in exchange.
2272. Do you make that profit upon the goods made to your order,
by charging a higher price to your customer in the south, or by
paying a smaller rate to the women who knit for you?-The rate
we pay the work-women here depends on what the other dealers in
town are paying. I suppose we all pay much about the same rates.
2273. But I don't see how the same articles if made by one of your
own work-women, can be charged at a different price to your
customer in the south from what it would be if it were purchased
by you across the counter?-As I have said, we have much more
trouble with it.
2274. But the customer in the south fixes the price; and you cannot
give articles that are really the same in quality at a different price,
in consequence of the way in which they have come into your
hands?-No; but on some articles we must have less profit than on
others, and we must just make the one balance the other.
2275. But your customer would object to take two identical
articles at different prices?-No doubt he would; but such articles
as these black shawls we never buy over the counter. In fact I
don't think I ever did buy one in that way; they are always made to
order. We bring in the raw material, and the women knit it up.
The material of which these black shawls are made is not Shetland
wool. The women don't have it. Of course they could get it if
they chose to buy it in the shops: we would sell it to them just the
same as anything else.
2276. Do you purchase stockings?-Yes.
2277. You don't have them made?-No; they are all bought over
the counter.
2278. Are they generally paid for in goods?-Yes; I may say
universally.
2279. Are they made by the people in the country rather than by
those in Lerwick?-There are very few made in Lerwick; all the
hosiery proper is made in the country districts. When I speak of
the hosiery proper, I mean stockings.
2280. What do you call the other kind?-Under-clothing. Articles
such as shawls, veils, neckties, and the like, we call fancy work.
Then there is under-clothing-men's under shirts, gentlemen's
drawers, ladies sleeve, ladies' under-dresses, ladies' drawers
ladies' spencers, which are worn under the clothing.
2281. I see in your day-book a charge for half dozen white veils,
12s., that is, 2s. each: is not 2s. a high price for veils?-It depends
very much on the quality.
2282. Would that be an average quality?-No; it is a good quality.
2283. Were these purchased or made to order?-I could not say as
to that particular lot. The best veils may be specially made or they
may be bought. We very often buy veils in the ordinary retail way
over the counter, and give 2s. 6d. for them; but these would be
particularly well knitted.
2284. Do you give so much as 2s. 6d. for veils?-Yes, for the
finest quality.
2285. Then these 2s. veils were sent to a retail house?-Yes; but
of course they are buying from us, and we are selling to them, and
they get 5 per cent. off that.
2286. What might be the price of these veils to you?-Perhaps
18d. or 20d.
2287. Is there anything else that you wish to state about the hosiery
trade?-Nothing that I recollect of, particularly; but I may perhaps
be allowed to refer to some of the answers given to questions by
the witnesses who were examined before the Commission in
Edinburgh. In question 44,156, Mr. George Smith is asked, 'Who
supplies them (the knitters) with the wool?'-and he replies, 'That
is a very difficult question. They get it chiefly from the small
farmers, and sometimes from the merchants?'-I don't see why
Mr. Smith should have said that that was a difficult question.
There was no difficulty in it whatever.
2288. Where do the knitters generally get their wool?-In the case
of the country girls, their families sometimes have sheep running
on the scattald, and the wool is their own property, and is spun by
some member of the family.
2289. Are there people in the country who collect wool from a
number of families and give it out to spin?-I believe, in some
districts of the country, there are dealers who buy up the wool and
sell it out again as wool. I was to say that the knitters can buy it
from them also, or from their neighbours. These are the three
ways in which they can get it.
2290. Is the greater part of the wool that is used in Shetland of
native production?-Yes; the greater part of it is, except the
Bradford and English manufactured wools, principally black
mohair and alpaca.
2291. Is much of that sold to women who knit on their own
account?-I do not know if there is much sold; but in my own
case, if they came to me wanting it, and I had it in stock, they
should have it, whether they paid for it in cash or got it put to their
account.
2292. If a woman came to you and sold a shawl, and wanted part
of the price of it in worsted, would she get it without any
demur?-Certainly.
2293. Do you know whether objections are made by any of the
merchants to that being done?-I have seen it stated in the
evidence that there are such objections.
2294. But, apart from the evidence before this Commission, do
you know from your own knowledge, or from the statements of
people in Shetland, whether there has been a difficulty in getting
worsted for knitting in that way?-Yes, I have heard that.
2295. Do you know from what that difficulty arises?[Page 47]-I
do not; unless it is because the dealer thinks that worsted is an
article on which he does not have so much profit as on other
goods, and is unwilling to give it.
2296. There has been no difficulty of that kind in your shop at any
time?-No, none.
2297. Is there any reason why, in dealing with knitters, worsted
should be called a money article or a ready-money article, which
was only sold to them for money?-The Shetland worsted, which
is generally spun in the north isles, in North Yell and Unst, is
almost always bought and paid for in cash. It has always been the
custom, at least for many years,-I should say for fifteen years,-
that when the women come down from the north isles with
worsted and sell it either to private persons or in the shops, they
are paid for it in cash at the rate of 3d. or 31/2d. or 4d. per cut of
nominally 100 threads, which in reality, when counted, runs to 80
or 90. I have seen a cut of worsted for which you paid 8d.
supposed to be 100 threads, which when counted was only found
to be 55; but that was an extreme case.
2298. But that wool is obtained by merchants or other persons who
want it, from Shetland women coming mostly from the north
isles?-Yes; where it is principally manufactured.
2299. Is the price of it always paid to them in cash?-As a rule, it
is. Perhaps there may be exceptions, but, as a rule, it is paid in
cash.
2300. Is that assigned in the trade as a reason why, when it is sold
out to other women, it should be paid for by them in cash?-I
should say that that was the reason, because there would be no
profit on it otherwise. For instance worsted for which a dealer
paid 31/2d. a cut would be sold by him at the same price; and if he
gave it in exchange for goods, he might be out of his money for
weeks or months.
2301. Does he not get more than 31/2d. for it when selling it?-I
don't think it. There is a sort of fixed price for the various
qualities of it.
2302. Does he not make a profit on retailing it?-No; I think not.
He would either refuse to sell it at all, or give it at the price at
which he bought it.
2303. Then his purchase of the worsted must have been made
primarily for the use of the knitters employed by him?-Yes, I
believe so.
2304. So that selling it to those women who knit on their own
account would be a little out of his ordinary way of business?-
Yes.
2305. He does not profess to get it for that purpose?-No. It is the
raw material brought in by him or bought by him for his own uses.
2306. Is it wool or worsted you are speaking of?-Worsted.
Before it is carded and spun we call it wool; after it is carded and
spun we call it worsted.
2307. It is brought in the shape of worsted?-Yes.
2308. So that all you have been speaking of is really worsted?-
Yes.
2309. Is much of that sent south from Shetland by the merchants in
the shape of worsted?-Not much, I should say. It is more
profitable, of course, for dealers and knitters to make it up, as all
the raw material would come to would be comparatively
trifling.
2310. Then you are not in the habit of sending it south in the shape
of worsted?-No. In fact it is difficult to get. Sometimes we get
an order for a small quantity for the south, for darning purposes.
When a customer orders a dozen or two dozen socks, he will ask
for some worsted along with them for that purpose; but it is not
easy sometimes to get that for him. I was to refer to one or two
other questions in the previous evidence. In question 44,289 Mr.
Walker is asked, 'These merchants have no hold over them as
being their tenants?'-and he replies, 'Not in the town, except in
very few instances; not as a rule.' Now I don't know what
instances he refers to. For my own part, I cannot imagine how any
of us Lerwick dealers can have any hold on the Lerwick knitters,
because they can come to us or any other body, just as they please.
2311. None of them are your tenants?-No; but even if they were,
I don't think it would matter.
2312. If their rent were in arrear, would the merchant not have a
hold over them?-He, as their landlord, would just have the same
redress as any other landlord would have. Then the next question
is, 'Is it considered a lucrative business?-Oh ! immensely so.'
2313. You have already made a statement with regard to that
answer; at least you have explained what the profit is?-Yes; but
he says, 'I know for a fact, that the worsted of a shawl which sells
at about 30s. is worth from 2s. to 3s.' Now that is quite incorrect,
because with the very lowest price of worsted the cheapest would
be at least 4s. 6d.; but for a shawl selling at 30s. the worsted of it
would certainly cost me 10s.
2314. Do you mean the worsted of any shawl that would sell for
that in the south market or to a south country merchant?-Yes, or
to any customer here. We sell a good many of these shawls to
ladies in Lerwick, or to any people who come in to buy them; and
any shawl that would sell for 30s. the worsted of it would cost 9s.
or 10s.
2315. How much would the workmanship of a 30s. shawl come
to?-Perhaps 12s., and sometimes more. Sometimes we give as
high as 15s. for it. We paid 17s. 6d. last week for making a fine
shawl. Then he says, A good deal of the worsted is now made in
England, and brought down to Shetland.
2316. Is there much worsted imported from England?-Yes. Mr.
Walker says further, 'The demand is so great for the Shetland
goods, that it (the worsted) is made in Yorkshire, and brought
down at 8s. a pound; and a quarter of a pound of that worsted will
make a large shawl.' That is a mistake, because nothing less than
half a pound of worsted of that quality could by any possibility
make a shawl.
2317. Is 8s. per pound a correct statement of the price?-For some
qualities it is. There is a great variety of qualities. The qualities of
Pyrenees and mohair and alpaca wools go by numbers, and
according to fineness the numbers rise.
2318. Can you mention the various prices at present?-7s. and 8s.
per pound for blacks and whites; 9s. and 10s. for scarlet and
ingrained colours.
2319. That is for Yorkshire wool?-Yes, of the finer descriptions;
and then mohair and alpaca will range from 20s. to 24s. and 30s.
2320. I thought you said 32s. before?-Yes; and I have no doubt
some of the numbers are even higher.
2321. I suppose there is not much variety in the size of shawls used
for opera-cloaks or dress purposes?-No, they are all made about a
size; but the value does not depend so much upon the size as upon
the style of the workmanship.
2322. It will also depend to some extent on the quality of the
wool?-Yes, to some extent.
2323. But principally on the workmanship?-Yes, it depends in
great measure on that; and that is the reason why there are constant
disputes with the knitters. Two knitters may come in with two
shawls made of the same material and the same size and yet the
one will be 25 per cent. better than the other, on account of the
work bestowed upon it, and the niceness of the pattern; but it is
very difficult to get these girls to understand that they should be
paid according to that.
2324. Can you show me any instance of a shawl made of
Yorkshire wool for which you paid 20s.? That would be rather a
fine quality, would it not?-Yes; that would be mohair or alpaca.
2325. But not the finest quality?-No, not the finest.
2326. We may take that as an average quality. You said it would
take about half a pound of material to make the shawl; but you
also said that the finer the wools are, the less thread it takes to
make them. How much would it take to make a shawl of that
kind?-Perhaps it would take 6 oz.
2327. That would be about 7s. 6d. for the material?-Yes; but a
great deal depends on the way in which [Page 48] it is knitted. It
is almost impossible to say, except with a very special article, what
the knitter would get for it, because this is not like a uniform trade
at all.
2328. Then you fix the price to the knitter according to the
judgment of your eye?-Yes, after the work is brought back.
Properly speaking, every shawl requires to be priced individually.
2329. Between what sums would you say that the price of the
workmanship of a shawl made of that sort of stuff would vary?-
That depends entirely on the workmanship itself. Some of the best
knitters we have in town put very high prices on their work.
2330. I am assuming that it varies; but there must be a limit to it.
Can you not give what would be about the average?-I will give
an instance. About a fortnight ago I bought a shawl from a girl for
35s., made of common Yorkshire wool. It was her own material,
and she just came in with it, and sold it over the counter. The
material of that shawl, for which I gave her 35s., had not cost her
4s. It was a half-square shawl. It is still lying in the shop, and I
can produce it if it is desired. The whole value of that article
depended on the workmanship contained in it.
2331. Is it a black or white shawl?-White. It is not even fine
Shetland worsted, which is the most valuable sort of thing.
2332. Is fine Shetland worsted more valuable than the other
worsted at 32s?-Yes, we can always get a better price; and
indeed the article is much more valuable when made of fine white
Shetland wool than of fine white English wool, because there is a
hardness and coarseness in the English wool that is not in the
Shetland.
2333. But you don't pay so much as 32s. per pound for Shetland
wool in any case?-No, I doubt think we pay so much as that for
it, but the Shetland wool is more rare. The supply of it is limited.
You can get any quantity of mohair or alpaca, but you cannot get
any quantity of fine Shetland wool.
2334. Do you purchase that quality of fine Shetland wool to any
extent?-I buy some of it. I have paid as high as 6d. a cut of
nominally 100 threads for it; but that was a rare article. 4d. per cut
is the usual thing.
2335. How much is that per pound?-We don't reckon the
Shetland worsted by the pound.
2336. But as you do so little business in giving out work, I suppose
you don't purchase great quantities of the Shetland wool for your
own use?-No.
2337. Is there any other part of the evidence you wish to refer
to?-There is another question, 44,301, where Mr. Walker is
asked, 'Is it all done through the middle-man?'-referring to the
buying of woollen goods: he says, 'Through the merchants. Then,
in considering the hosiery matter, when you leave the town, you
come to the middle-men, merchants, or merchant factors, or
merchant proprietors; in which case the knitters are their tenants.
All worsted goods taken and sold in town are virtually taken
surreptitiously or on the sly.' I wish to remark with regard to that,
that I never heard of such a thing until I saw it here.
2338. Are there hosiery merchants and worsted merchants in the
country?-Yes, here and there.
2339. Do they possess any hold over the knitters?-I suppose in
some cases they will be factors for the proprietors, and these
knitters will be living in family with the tenants who have the
holdings.
2340. Do you know any instance of such hosiery merchants being
proprietors in the country?-I don't know about them being
proprietors.
2341. Or factors for proprietors?-I suppose Spence & Co., in
Unst, are in that position.
2342. Are they hosiery merchants?-They deal extensively in
hosiery; and I understand they are factors or lessees or the greater
part of the island.
2343. But the other fish-curers generally are not hosiery
merchants?-I think not, as a rule.
2344. Then you deny that, as a general rule, knitters are bound in
any way to sell to dealers in the country?-I never heard of such a
thing before especially this statement, that all worsted goods taken
and sold in town are virtually taken surreptitiously. That may be
true, but I never heard it till I read it in this evidence; and I don't
believe it is true.
2345. Do you often send orders to the country?-Yes; we send
orders to the merchants in the country for hosiery just the same as
we order goods from the south, and the merchants in the country
make them up.
2346. Do they have their profit on the hosiery in the first
instance?-I suppose so. We pay them in cash.
2347. And you have a commission or a profit in your turn?-Yes,
we must have that otherwise it would be no object for us to buy the
articles.
2348. Is there any other point in the previous evidence which you
wish to mention?-I don't think there is anything else.
2349. Is there any other correction you wish make upon that
evidence, or upon the evidence which has been taken here, so far
as you have heard it?-No. I heard the evidence of several of
these knitting women, and I have no reason to doubt its general
correctness.
2350. Is it the case that the knitters are more commonly in debt to
the merchant than the other way,-that they are generally rather
behind in their accounts with him?-In my own case, I don't think
that is so, at least not to any extent.
2351. In a bad season do they not fall behind, and require credit to
some extent from the merchant?-I don't think that obtains very
much with the knitters. It would obtain more with the fishermen
and heads of houses.
2352. But if a woman is depending entirely on knitting for her
livelihood, and the prices of provisions are high, while at the same
time the prices for knitted goods may happen to be low, is it usual
for a merchant to make advances to her in goods or, in cash?-
There being no system of cash payments, I would not say that I
would make advances of cash to her.
2353. But would the merchant, in such a case, make advances to
her in goods?-He probably would. We know most of these
knitting girls, and we would not see them at a loss for anything
they actually required. I believe most of the dealers would be
ready to help them in that way.
2354. Does that come to be any inducement to the knitting women
to sell their goods to particular merchants afterwards, or to submit
to take their payments in goods when, in other circumstances, they
would prefer to have them in cash?-I think, in many cases, if they
were in debt to me, they would not scruple very much at walking
off and dealing with some other body afterwards, and leaving my
debt to take its chance; for they know there would be no legal
proceedings taken-no summoning, or anything of that kind. I
never heard of any case in Lerwick where a knitter was summoned
for any balance which she was due.
2355. Perhaps the balances generally are so small, that it is not
worth the merchants' while to summon the women for them?-I
daresay that is the case. I have been told that one of the witnesses
yesterday, Mrs. Arcus, referred to the state of the trade in my late
fathers time and said it was better then, because the women who
made these goods were in the habit of getting meal and groceries
from my father for them.
2356. Was that actually the case?-It was. For a great many years
my father kept meal, barley, rice, sugar, soap, tea, and all sorts of
provisions; but the consequence was, that when newer dealers
came into the trade, and went more extensively into the drapery
goods, then the knitters and people selling for drapery came more
upon my father for groceries, on which there was a much smaller
profit; and of course that put us to a great disadvantage. The
consequence was, that we gradually gave up the grocery part of the
trade. I believe that is the explanation of the statement, which I
daresay was quite correct.
2357. Of course there are some women who live entirely by
knitting? Can you explain how they supply themselves with food
if they are paid entirely or almost entirely with goods? Have you
turned your [Page 49] attention to that point at all?-No, I must
say I was rather astonished to hear some of the evidence which has
been given here, although, I have no doubt it was quite correct. It
had not occurred to me that some of these women were under such
conditions as it appears they are.
2358. However, you have not turned your attention to that
point?-No, but I have no doubt that what they said was quite
correct; and perhaps there is a grievance there which ought to be
remedied. I show you an entry in my invoice-book of a dozen
gentleman's drawers sold for 48s., which is exactly the price paid
for them in goods. My customer does not pay for eighteen months,
so that I lose the interest for that time; and there is also 5 per cent.
off at the end of the eighteen months. The two next items are in
precisely the same position. They are charged at the nominal
prices which we have paid for them in goods.
2359. The long credit which you give, in that case, arises from the
state of the market in London?-Yes; these London houses are
generally long in paying.
2360. But cannot you get your customers here, from whom you
buy the goods, to take less for them?-No, we don't require to do
that. I believe that when a woman makes a pair of drawers, or
anything else that kind, she cannot be paid for them with less than
4s.
2361. Is that an article in which you deal extensively?-Yes; we
buy a good many of them, but it is an article on which we have no
profit.
2362. A statement has been made in this inquiry, that the success
of a merchant in Shetland consists in being able to accumulate
such an amount of bad debts about him as thirls the whole families
in a neighbourhood to him, and then he gets on: do you concur in
that statement?-I think that statement must have been intended as
a burlesque. I cannot understand how any man could thrive by
accumulating a large amount of bad debts. I read the statement at
the time, but I could not understand it.
2363. It can only mean this: that the man has a number of debts
which his debtors have difficulty in paying, but that they are in the
course of earning money year after year and that they are
compelled to spend entire earnings in is shop: do you think that is
the case?-I can only say that in my own business I make a point
of making as few debts as possible, and never any bad ones. To
make bad debts I should consider a misfortune rather than a piece
of good luck.
2364. But they may not be bad debts, although payment of them
may be delayed for a long time. It is perhaps a misnomer, to call
them bad debts?-Yes I should say so.
2365. I understand you were engaged at one time in the whaling
agency business?-Yes, for some years. My brother-in-law and
partner managed that part of the business; and he purposes to
come forward and give some evidence, and produce books which
he kept at that time. We went out of that trade last spring.
Lerwick, January 4, 1872, ROBERT SINCLAIR, examined.
2366. You are the principal partner of the firm of Robert Sinclair
& Co., merchants in Lerwick?-I am the sole partner of that firm.
2367. Your stock, I understand, consists of drapery goods and
tea?-Drapery, millinery, boots and shoes, tea, and various other
articles. I also keep various kinds of groceries-not many; but
there are tea, soap, soda, and blue.
2368. You do not keep provisions?-Not provisions.
2369. Do you keep sugar?-No; I do not sell sugar now.
2370. Besides that trade, you are employed in the purchase and
sale of hosiery?-I am.
2371. Your hosiery is obtained in two ways: either women that
knit upon your employment or from parties who come with their
own goods and sell them to you?-They are principally the latter.
2372. How many women can you state, have been employed on an
average during the last three years in knitting for you with worsted
supplied by you?-I never was at the pains to reckon exactly the
number of knitters I had. I should suppose there would be on an
average from 80 to 100-sometimes more and sometimes fewer;
but that is only a guess. I have books here which will show it
exactly.
2373. Are those women who knit for you paid generally in money,
or in goods; or is there an account between you?-There is always
an account kept with the knitters, and they are paid in cash or in
goods-principally in goods; but there is no objection to pay them
in cash when they want it.
2374. Are your people instructed to pay in cash when cash is asked
for?-I never gave any direct instructions to that effect; but
occasionally they may pay in cash when they know a customer
well. If it is advances that are wanted, they would require to know
the character of the customer to whom the advances are made.
2375. Do you mean to say that the question whether a request for
an advance is to be granted or not, depends upon the state of the
customer's account at that time?-Exactly, or mostly that.
2376. Then, if a knitter has a considerable amount at her credit,
and wants money, is it the rule in your shop that she will get an
advance?-She will get an advance in money when she has it to
get; but we don't call that an advance,-it is a debt; and it has
been generally understood, as has been often stated, that it is goods
which they are to get for their work. That rule, however, has often
been departed from-more particularly lately.
2377. You say there is an understanding they are to be paid in
goods, but that that understanding has been departed from?-Yes,
often. But the last question put to me was a double one. With
regard to the other part of it,-as to them having a large amount at
their credit,-the fact is, that they seldom have anything at their
credit, but when the goods come in, they have to be entered to
their credit, to make up for advances which they received when
they were knitting. That is the rule, but there are several
exceptions to it.
2378. As a general rule, has a knitter got more goods from you
than the value of her work?-Yes; she generally has got quite
equal to the value of it, and frequently more.
2379. You say that she has either got more goods than the value of
the hosiery which she brings, or she has got at least up to the value
of the work returned?-Yes; generally.
2380. Have you formed any idea as to whether the kind of goods
which you supply to your knitters consists to a greater extent of
articles of ordinary dress, such as cotton, and dress stuffs, and
boots and shoes, or of millinery, and the finer articles which you
deal in?-They consist principally of strong usable wearing
apparel, boots and shoes, and other things that are generally
required for domestic purposes or for their own wear.
2381. You say that you have about 80 or 100 women engaged
knitting to you?-I only guessed that. I think there must be more.
2382. Is the system of dealing with the whole of these, that an
account is kept?-Yes.
2383. Is that account kept in a pass-book with the knitter?-Not
always. When they want a pass-book, they get it. You can see
from that book [producing work-book], who have pass-books and
who have not.
2384. Has every knitter a separate page in your work-ledger?-
Yes; the book speaks for itself.
2385. It may be convenient for both of us if you take the case of
Jemima Sandison just now, whose passbook I have got here. Is
that pass-book an exact copy of the page in her name in your
ledger?-Yes; the entries in both are made, at the same time. She
brings the pass-book when she wants any article and the entry is
made in the work-book at the same time as in the [Page 50]
pass-book. Unless there is any error in summation or date, the
one should be an exact transcript of the other.
2386. Is it generally known by you or your shopkeeper whether
there is a sum at the credit of the worker, or whether the account
stands the other way?-After they have gone on for a while, and
when they come in with any work, of course we square up the
books and examine them.
2387. In adding up Jemima Sandison's book, I find from
November 11, 1870, to December 28, 1871, the amount of goods
and cash supplied to her was £3, 5s. 3d.?-Yes; but there is
something I may explain with regard to this particular case. All
the work she has done does not appear here. If she wants to get
wool or any other article, she can get it out of the shop on bringing
goods for it, and that does not appear in the book. She sells the
goods to us when she has made them, and gets either cash or goods
for them according she wishes. That book does not show all our
transactions with her.
2388. Some of them may be ready-money transactions?-Not
ready-money, but private transactions, that do not appear in the
books at all, because the book only contains the goods she gets
from us, and for which she returns knitted work. She is paid for
the knitting of these goods, and not for the whole value.
2389. How do you distinguish, in that case, between the goods that
go into the pass-book and those which she gets, but which do not
enter the pass-book?-There is no occasion to distinguish between
them at all, because they are separate transactions.
2390. When she comes with a separate article to sell, how do you
do?-Suppose a time when trade is dull, as Mr. Laurenson has
explained, and we are not making falls (which is the principal
thing this woman makes for us), we try to keep her in work by
giving her out material, and she makes anything else with it that
she likes. We do not enter that in the book at all. She makes it for
herself. We may buy it from her, or she may go and sell it to
another if she likes; or she, may have a private order for it, and sell
it in that way. These transactions do not appear in the book.
2391. But when she comes to you, and you do happen to buy an
article in that way from her, is she paid for it to a certain extent in
goods?-Yes, if she wants them.
2392. These goods are not entered in the day-book?-Of course
not.
2393. You just deliver there to her across the counter, in the same
way as you would deliver them to any party who came in to make
a ready-money transaction?-Yes.
2394. If she does not want exactly the value of goods which will
pay for her shawl, or for any other article which she may have
brought to you, do you enter the balance in any book?-No; we do
not enter it in the book, except in the line-book. We give her a
receipt for the balance, and we give her the balance in cash or in
goods at any other time.
2395. If she wishes money for the balance, is it usual thing in your
trade to pay it in money?-The fact is that we never refused her
money when she asked it. She stated that in her evidence.
2396. That may have been the case with this particular woman, but
is it the fact that any knitter who wants a balance of that kind in
money is able to get it?-If she has bargained to take goods, and if
the price we put on the article be such that we cannot give money
on it without making a loss by it, then we don't give the money:
we stick to the bargain. If the bargain has been such that it would
allow us any little profit on it, then we give it all in money, if they
want it in that way.
2397. The question whether she is to get money or goods for the
balance, depends on the bargain which the woman has made?-
Yes; decidedly.
2398. Can you tell me any case in which you have paid the whole
price for hosiery goods in money?-I could tell you many cases of
that kind, For instance, I could mention the case of Miss Gifford.
2399. What was the transaction you had with her?-My last
transaction with her-indeed I have only had one for a long
time-was for a shawl which bought from her; and paid all cash
for it.
2400. When was that?-About three months ago.
2401. What was the price?-The price of the shawl was £4, and I
gave her four £1 notes for it.
2402. Was not that a very valuable shawl?-Yes but I would rather
have taken it and paid money for it, than I would have given barter
for a thing that might lie on my hands until the moths eat it.
2403. The quality of the thing was so good, that you wanted to
have it at any price?-Yes, and I could charge a small profit on it;
but I cannot do that on the great bulk of the things I get.
2404. Did you pay for that in cash because it was an exceptional
article?-I paid for it in cash because I wanted it. I would do the
same for anything I wanted; but when goods are forced upon us,
and goods asked for them, we cannot be expected to put our hands
into the till and pay out cash for them.
2405. Are goods forced upon you?-Yes.
2406. Have you no option but to buy them?-No. That is not the
meaning of my words. I do not mean that we are forced to buy
them, in that sense. I mean, that people come in importuning us to
buy goods which we do not want.
2407. You do buy them, however?-Sometimes, and sometimes
not.
2408. Is it in consequence of the importunity of your customers
that you buy them?-Sometimes, and sometimes not.
2409. But you say that sometimes you are forced by the
importunity of your customers to buy their goods?-Yes; we may
be induced to do it by an importunate woman.
2410. And when the importunity is so great that you are
constrained to buy them, are these the cases in which you pay in
goods?-No; the people often don't want the cash. They don't ask
for it. They come to us with the general understanding that the,
trade is done in goods-I mean in barter.
2411. Do you say the general understanding is that the payment is
to be in goods, and also that you have sometimes to buy goods
because you are importuned to do so?-Decidedly. I say I do buy
them sometimes, because I cannot get rid of the customer
otherwise, but these are exceptional cases.
2412. Is it because of the importunity, or because it is the general
custom, that the payment is in goods?-That has been a tradition
from time immemorial.
2413. But you have assigned the fact of paying in goods to both of
these causes, and I wish to know which of them it is that you really
refer it to?-It is sometimes the one and sometimes the other.
2414. But you are not obliged to buy hosiery and pay with goods
unless you like?-Not at all; nor for money either. What I stated
was, that I would rather pay in cash for a good article which I can
sell again, than purchase a thing on barter that I have a great risk in
selling. That is the whole import and purpose of what I said.
2415. You instanced one transaction,-that which you had with
Elizabeth Gifford?-Yes; and there is another girl, Catherine
Brown, who is in Leith just now, from whom I bought a great
number of shawls, and paid her cash down for them.
2416. Was that long ago?-It has gone over a number of years.
2417. Was your reason for paying the cash the same in that case:
because the articles which you got from her were good?-Yes;
they were prime articles.
2418. Is there any one else you wish to mention?-There are many
cases in which I paid cash for hosiery articles, although I could not
name the persons just now. They were people whose faces I knew,
but I cannot recollect their names.
2419. Were these cases in which you paid the whole value in
cash?-Yes.
2420. Did these transactions enter your books?-No; the cash was
just paid for them at the time.
2421. Do you take no notice of the cash paid out in [Page 51] that
way?-Not generally. I don't that there is any special entry in the
cash-book showing what it had been paid for.
2422. Don't you take a receipt from such persons?-No, I never
did.
2423. Then how do you know the price at which to sell these
shawls?-Because I put the prices on the shawls myself.
2424. Do you mark them all at the time?-Yes.
2425. And you swear that no entry of such a payment enters into
any of your books?-I swear that, to my knowledge, there is no
memorandum taken of a cash transaction carried through in that
way. With regard Elizabeth Gifford, I may explain that I gave her
a receipt for a shawl to be paid for in cash, and she came to my
shop some time afterwards and got the cash.
2426. Then that cash entered your book?-Yes. Here is the entry
[produces line-book]: 'C. M. 95. 1. 11.71. Paid in cash, 80s. £4.'
2427. How do you know that is the transaction?-Because it is the
only transaction of the kind that is in the book, it is the only
transaction in which £4 was paid in cash.
2428. Was that entry all made at one time?-The first part of it
was made when she brought the shawl. The date when she got the
line is not here.
2429. Then it was on 1st November 1871 that she got the
money?-Yes.
2430. The entry made at first was 'C.M. 95. 80s. £4?'-Yes.
2431. And the figures '1. 11. 71,' and the words 'paid in cash,'
were inserted when the money was given?-Yes
2432. There is no entry of the date of the issuing of the line at
first?-No; the book was not being dated then.
2433. When did the book begin to be dated?-We have the date on
the line itself, and therefore it is quite sufficient to enter the
numbers of the lines in the book.
2434. But when did the book begin to be dated?-On 30th
October.
2435. Then it must have been a few days before 30th October
when the line was first given out?-Yes.
2436. To come back to Jemima Sandison's book the total amount
supplied to her was £3, 5s. 31/2d. in period of thirteen months, and
there was a balance of 16s. to begin with. The amount that
appears to have been paid in cash during that time is 3s. 6d. on all
these transaction: is that so?-It may be; but I have ready
explained that the entries in the book do not represent all the cash
which she got from me.
2437. She also appears to have got tea on thirty-seven different
occasions, in quantities of 8d., 9d., and 10d. worth at the time?-
Yes; that would be a quarter of a pound.
2438. The amount of tea altogether comes to 5d. or more than
one-half of the total quantity of all that she got from you. If we
assume that she got a amount of tea as part of the previous balance
of 16s, there is thus only 8s. 6d. paid in cash, 30s. or more paid in
tea, and the rest paid in goods. Can you give me any idea whether
the amount of cash paid to this woman on the separate transactions
you have been speaking of would be greater or less than the
amount appearing in this book?-I could not swear as to what it
was, because we are transacting business of that kind with her very
frequently, and it is impossible to remember what amount of goods
or of cash she got on these particular transactions. I should say
that what the book gives about a fair average of what it might be
upon the other sales as well, or it might be that it would rather
exceed it; but I should wish to remark that she never was refused
the cash that was asked for by her.
2439. Do you think the case of this woman Sandison may be taken
as a fair specimen of the accounts which you keep with the other
women employed by you?-No, there are exceptions; there are
some who got a good deal more cash than she did.
2440. Was there any reason, in these other cases, for their getting
more cash?-Of course they asked for more and perhaps they
needed it. There are some who are equally dependent with her,
and who have perhaps less chances of getting money otherwise.
As I said, she sometimes makes to order, and gets cash from that
source. If you will take the case of Mary Ann Sinclair and her
sisters as it appears in the book, you will see that they got more
cash than Sandison did.
2441. I see in Mary Ann Sinclair's account on 'September 30,
1868, cash 5s.; October 13, cash for meal 11s. 3d.; November 18,
cash 1s.; November 23, to paid William Smith for meal 5s. 4d.;
November. 27, cash 1s.' Do you give that as an average specimen
of the amount of cash that was paid?-There may be exceptional
cases; but I daresay, taking the whole thing, Sandison's pass-book
may be regarded as a fair specimen of the way in which the thing
has gone on.
2442. In that account of Mary Ann Sinclair's which you have just
showed me there is an entry of 5s. 4d. paid to William Smith for
meal: who is William Smith?-He is a grocer in town.
2443. Was that paid to him directly, or did the money pass through
the hands of the woman Sinclair?-I generally gave her the
money, and told her to go anywhere she liked with it; but in some
cases, if it happened that I did not have the cash on the counter, or
handy, she went to the same person that she used to deal with, or
to any one she wanted to go to, and got what she required, and I
paid the cash for it perhaps on the same day.
2444. In what way was that transaction carried out? Did you give
her a line to go to Smith for the meal?-I don't think it. I have no
recollection of doing it.
2445. Is that a common kind of entry in your book?-No.
2446. There is another entry of 11s. 3d, for meal: would that be
paid to Smith or to the woman Sinclair?-I think it was paid to
herself.
2447. Then why is it entered in your book as being for meal?-
Very often we did that in order to distinguish the things she
wanted the cash for, and to keep a check on them. For instance,
they might come in and ask cash from me and they would receive
it.
2448. But why should you wish to keep a check on them in a case
like that?-I don't know.
2449. Had you any interest in the way in which the woman was to
spend her money?-No; but if we paid cash to a person for one of
these women, we marked it down as having been paid.
2450. Then when you put down this sum of 11s. 3d. for meal, did
that mean that you had paid the money to Smith or to some other
meal-dealer, or that you had paid the money to Mary Ann Sinclair
herself?-I cannot recollect.
2451. I only want you to explain, if possible, or to suggest an
explanation if you don't remember, about how it happened that
that entry was made for meal. If the woman got it in cash, would
it not be simply marked down as cash?-I don't remember about
that. She might have got the meal from Smith, and paid him the
money at any time. She may have told us that she had to pay
Smith an account, and asked us to pay it for her. That is the only
explanation I can give of it. Sometimes she would ask to get a
little meal; and as we did not have meal, we would tell her to go to
anyone she liked and get it, and we would pay the party for it. I
may say, at the same time, that I did not have a fraction upon that.
There was no compact about in between me and the man who
supplied her with the meal. We just paid her account to him in
cash.
2452. You don't remember either of these payments?-No; I
cannot remember them.
2453 Do you know whether such entries are frequent in your
books?-They are not; there is no occasion for them being
frequent.
2454. Does a woman often come and say to you, 'I want some
money to pay for meal or some groceries, and I wish you would
give me so much?'-No; I have no recollection of any other case
than the one which [Page 52] has been referred to. There may
have been cases in which, when selling an article, they may have
asked for a few shillings for themselves, and where they may have
mentioned what they wanted it for; but with regard to Mary Ann
Sinclair's case, to the best of my recollection, this was just an
account which I paid for her to a meal-dealer that she was owing it
to.
2455. You say that some of your knitters don't have pass-books at
all?-The majority of them have.
2456. In that case, the only account kept with them is the one
entered in your work-book?-Yes; but whenever we settle, we
carefully read over all the items to them and if they take any
objection to them, of course they get some explanation.
2457. The work-book you have produced is the current one?-
Yes.
2458. Is there any entry in it showing where a pass-book has been
given?-Yes; it is generally marked in red pencil where there is a
pass-book. There are not many pass-books; I don't think we have
a dozen altogether; but the women are never refused a pass-book if
they want it. It entails a great deal more trouble on us to keep
them.
2459. When you come to settle one of these accounts where
there is no pass-book, how do you proceed?-For instance, here
is Elizabeth Hunter, from Trondra: she comes into town on
September 2, and you find then a balance for articles brought in,
which she takes in goods?-She takes more than she has to get.
2460. Are all these items read over to her at that time?-Every
item is read over to every person when we settle with them. We
always make a point of reading over the account in detail, and
satisfying them about it. Sometimes it happens that they cannot
remember about a particular thing, and some explanation is given
to them, generally by one of the people the shop; and that satisfies
them.
2461. Does it sometimes happen that the balance such a case is in
favour of the knitter?-Yes; sometimes.
2462. Is it, then, the practice simply to carry the balance on to the
new account, or does the woman receive any acknowledgment for
the balance?-The balance generally the other way. I may say that
we never take goods in advance. They generally go ahead, and we
must keep a tight rein on some of them otherwise they would go
deep enough. For instance here is a copy of the account of
Elizabeth Robertson, who was examined before you on Monday.
[Produces copy account.]
2463. Before going into that, I believe you think that in some parts
of the previous evidence an erroneous impression has been
produced to the effect that no worsted can be got in exchange for
the knitted goods?-Yes; I can state that I myself with my own
hands have given Elizabeth Robertson worsted in payment for
shawls more than once. I have given her the greater part of the
value of her shawls, or of the goods she had to sell, in worsted,
although that does not appear in her account.
2464. That has occurred when she has brought articles to you for
sale or exchange?-Yes.
2465. Do you say you have often given her the greater part of her
work in worsted?-I have not often given her the greater part, but I
have often given her part, and sometimes the greater part, in
worsted. Those in my shop can bear testimony to the same effect,
that they have given her worsted too. In fact we never refused to
give Pyrenees wool for the knitted goods when we had it, except
on rare occasions, when we had very little of it, and had to give it
out ourselves for work that we required.
2466. I suppose you know that if you give them that worsted in
return for their hosiery, they will bring it back to you?-They may,
or they may not.
2467. Do they not bring it to somebody?-They may to somebody,
but perhaps not to me. They may have an order for it from a lady
in the south, or dispose of it in other ways. We do not ask them
what they do with it, unless we give it out to them to make a
special article with. The fact is, with regard to that kind of
worsted we do scarcely anything in it, but we sell it to any knitter
in order to accommodate them.
2468. Then you say you have given Pyrenees worsted to Elizabeth
Robertson?-Yes.
2469. Have you ever given her the other kinds of worsted that
come from Yorkshire?-That is the same thing.
2470. Is the Pyrenees and the Yorkshire worsted all the same?-
No, the Pyrenees is one class. There is mohair worsted. I don't
recollect whether I ever gave any of it. It is used, for knitting falls.
'The Pyrenees is generally made into shawls.
2471. Does Robertson generally make shawls-Yes, generally; but
she makes falls too. I don't recollect giving her mohair; but I have
given her Pyrenees often. She would get any kind when she asked
for it; but mohair is a thing we never do sell, because we only
bring it in for our own use
2472. Is it the highest priced of all?-Yes.
2473. Is it higher than the Shetland wool?-We don't sell the
Shetland wool, except in rare, exceptional cases. The fine wool
we never sell, because we have great difficulty in getting it. We
never send it south; nor do we sell it in the shop as an article of
sale, except on occasions when a person is very much in want of it
for any particular purpose.
2474. For darning, for instance?-No, that kind of wool is not fit
for darning; it is only the coarser kind that is used in that way.
2475. Then you don't regard the Shetland wool as an article of
commerce?-No, it is a material we use for ourselves and we have
very great difficulty in getting as much of it as we require. We pay
cash for it; and if we were to sell it would put a stop to our trade.
2476. You heard the evidence of Mr. Laurenson about Shetland
wool?-Yes; it is something different from my experience. If a
lady or a retail dealer in the south orders a Shetland shawl, we
don't send a shawl made of Shetland wool unless we know that
they want that particular kind, but if we send one of Pyrenees
wool, we tell them what it is made of and that if will not do, they
can return it.
2477. With regard to the worsted, does the idea that knitters
cannot purchase worsted from merchants in Lerwick arise from the
fact that the merchants do not regard Shetland wool as an article of
commerce?-That is my impression. They not only do not so
regard it; but the fact is, if they made it an article of commerce, it
would put a stop to their business.
2478. How so?-Because they cannot get sufficient material for
their own use and also for sale.
2479. Do you mean that if you sold Shetland wool to any one who
asked it, you would not have a sufficient supply for your own
trade?-That is one reason; but there is another reason: because it
would be like changing a shilling, for the people know the value of
these things, and they would just pay me for the wool what I paid
for it in cash.
2480. They can get the wool from the same dealers from whom
you buy?-Yes, and of course the price of it is as well known to
them as to me. Another thing is, that if I take a parcel of worsted
of perhaps 600 or 700 cuts, a knitter who wants some of it won't
be pleased unless she gets the very pick of it; and for the very pick
of it she won't give me any more than I had to pay for the whole of
it overhead.
2481. That is substantially what Mr. Laurenson said with regard to
the reason for not selling Shetland wool. He does not sell it
either?-None of the principal dealers sell it. Sometimes some of
the wool is sold to grocers in town who don't deal in shawls, and
the knitters buy it from them.
2482. But if the knitters ask for Shetland wool, and offer cash for
it, is it usual to sell it?-No, except in very exceptional cases; and
you will see that an exception has been made in the case of that
girl Robertson.
[Page 53]
2483. You want to point that out?-Yes; I consider that we dealt
with her in rather an exceptional way.