Mr. PENA. If they came back, to please call them back.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who you talked to at the FBI?
Mr. PENA. I don't know exactly. See, I used to call De Brueys. You are
from Washington, huh?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mr. PENA. I am going to talk to you about De Brueys and the FBI agency
in New Orleans, in Louisiana.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think you talked to De Brueys at this time?
Mr. PENA. I don't know exactly. Sometimes you call there and they tell
you he is not in there and you talk to somebody else if you want to
give the message in the FBI, see, because De Brueys isn't there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, these two Mexicans that came into your bar and with
whom you had the discussion about the bongo drums, were they the same
men or the same man that was with Oswald when he was in the bar?
Mr. PENA. No; I don't believe so.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did they appear to you to have been entirely different
people?
Mr. PENA. Well, I know it was not Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was Oswald there at the time you had the argument with
the men about the bongo drums?
Mr. PENA. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not either of the men who argued
with you about the bongo drums had been with Oswald when he was in the
bar?
Mr. PENA. See, the man was over--I can't identify him. I can't. Oswald
I did because of the lemonade. I looked to him, that's all, but the
other guy I can't identify. He looked like a Cuban, but I can't say
that exactly. Maybe if I would see him again I would say, "Well, that's
the man."
Mr. LIEBELER. But you aren't able to say whether the two men who argued
with you about the bongo drums had any connection with Oswald or had
been with Oswald when he was in the bar?
Mr. PENA. I can't say that.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't recognize either of these two men that argued
with you about the bongo drums as the men that had been with Oswald
before?
Mr. PENA. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Had you ever seen these Mexicans before they argued with
you about the bongo drums?
Mr. PENA. I don't think they were Mexicans. They speak very, very
different, and they looked like Cubans. They spoke something like
Cubans.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see them again after that time?
Mr. PENA. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never saw them before that time, to the best of your
knowledge?
Mr. PENA. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is this the story that you told to the FBI after the
assassination, that you had seen Oswald in the bar and Rodriguez had
seen him in the bar?
Mr. PENA. More or less.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you talked to the FBI 2 weeks ago, did they ask you
about this again?
Mr. PENA. Yes; they asked me about this more than a dozen times.
Mr. LIEBELER. They asked you more than a dozen times about this?
Mr. PENA. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And did they come to your bar to ask you about this?
Mr. PENA. They come to my bar. They been calling me to come to the FBI
office. That's why sometimes--one time I went down and got a lawyer. I
don't need a lawyer about for this. I just tell you the truth. When I
finish with him--you are from Washington. I tell you, Bringuier hates
the United States as much as he hates Russia.
Mr. LIEBELER. Bringuier does?
Mr. PENA. The day Mr. Kennedy put a blockade in Cuba--you remember,
about a year and a half, more or less--Mr. Carlos Bringuier was telling
me--excuse me--(obscenity) in Spanish more than a dozen times, and I
couldn't stand that. I have never done anything against the United
States. I said, "No." Anyway, anything you want to ask me--and you can
ask Mr. Bringuier is that true or not, and let him and me take a lie
detector test to see who is right on it.
Mr. LIEBELER. You say that you have never done anything against the
interests of the United States?
Mr. PENA. No; I have not ever.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, I have no reason whatsoever not to believe that
statement, Mr. Pena.
Mr. PENA. Okay.
Mr. LIEBELER. Why do you say that Mr. Bringuier hates the United States
more than he does Russia?
Mr. PENA. Because he does as much.
Mr. LIEBELER. As much?
Mr. PENA. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Why does he dislike the United States? Has he ever told
you?
Mr. PENA. No; but the way he talks, that the United States didn't help
to overthrow Castro, and he can go over there and take over.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the basis for Mr. Bringuier's bad feeling towards
the United States, that we haven't done anything to overcome the Castro
regime?
Mr. PENA. Well, the way he talks to me, he hates the United States
as much as he hates Russia. That's what I told you, what he said,
more than a dozen times. And if that is not true, let him take a lie
detector test and find out whether that is true or not true.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell Mr. Bringuier about having seen Oswald in
the bar?
Mr. PENA. Yes; we was talking about that day. You see, I did like very,
very much Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. LIEBELER. You did or did not?
Mr. PENA. I did. Very, very much. So I was hurt when he got killed. So
when I saw the man there--I saw the man--so I went around and told most
of my customers that I saw Oswald came to my place.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you talked to the FBI on June 9, 1964, you told
them, did you not, that you had never told anybody that Oswald had been
in the bar?
Mr. PENA. That I never told anybody?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mr. PENA. That's not true.
Mr. LIEBELER. Didn't you tell that to the FBI?
Mr. PENA. I don't think that's so. That I never told anybody?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mr. PENA. I didn't told anybody before?
Mr. LIEBELER. I have a report before me, Mr. Pena, of an interview of
you in the presence of your attorney, Mr. Tamberella, which was made
by Mr. De Brueys and Mr. Wall. That was in the FBI office on June 9,
and on page 2 of this particular report, which is page 14 of the larger
report, it says, and I quote: "Orest Pena specifically stated he had
never told anyone, including Carlos Bringuier, that Oswald had been in
the Habana Bar with a Mexican prior to the assassination of President
Kennedy. He also said he never heard his brother, Ruperto Pena, say
that Oswald had been in the bar with a Mexican. He also stated that he
had no information that the FBI was ever looking for a Mexican who had
ever patronized his bar." Did you tell the FBI that?
Mr. PENA. I don't think so.
Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, you did tell Bringuier that you had seen Oswald
in the bar?
Mr. PENA. When we were talking after the assassination, we were talking
about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI agents back in December that Oswald
had been in the bar and that you had seen him?
Mr. PENA. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that Rodriguez had seen him there, too?
Mr. PENA. Yes; that's the first time they interviewed me about Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. On December 5, as far as I can tell. I have only two
reports.
Mr. PENA. Last year, you mean?
Mr. LIEBELER. In 1963. I have a report dated December 5, 1963, of an
interview with you in which you told the FBI that you had seen Oswald
in the bar and then I have a report of the interview on June 9, 1964,
a month ago, which says that you told them that you never told anybody
that Oswald had been in the bar and, of course, that's one of the
reasons why we called you in and wanted to talk to you because there is
an apparent conflict between the two FBI reports that we have on that
question. Now let me ask you this: You have a good deal of hostility
toward the FBI, do you not?
Mr. PENA. We got to talk about something else before I tell about the
FBI in New Orleans, so you let me know so I tell about the FBI, what I
think about it, if I can express myself well enough to put my point of
view about some of the agents of the FBI in New Orleans. Anyway, I will
tell you. See if you can understand my view.
Mr. LIEBELER. Very well. Let's get to that later. Regardless of what it
says in this FBI report, the fact is, you did see Oswald in the bar and
you did tell Bringuier, didn't you?
Mr. PENA. We was talking about--I know we was talking about it with
so many people around there, I can't tell you exactly. I know he knew
because we was talking about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Right. Did you actually see the man who ordered the
lemonade in the bar?
Mr. PENA. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me approximately when it was that you saw
Oswald in the bar? Now in this connection, let me help your thinking
about it by reminding you that you went to Puerto Rico on about August
13 or 14, 1963. Was it before that or after that that you saw Oswald?
Mr. PENA. I don't remember exactly.
Mr. LIEBELER. You can't remember?
Mr. PENA. No; it wasn't easy then. There was nothing in the incident.
He had money to pay for it and we just forgot about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. You can't remember whether it was before you went to
Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic or afterward?
Mr. PENA. No; I can't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did your brother, Ruperto, ever tell you that the two men
who had given you a hard time about the bongo drums had come back to
the bar?
Mr. PENA. He told me something about that he saw the men passing by in
a car and he called Bringuier and so Bringuier called the FBI, so they
said that they called the FBI.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was Ruperto in the bar when you had the argument with the
fellow about the bongo drums?
Mr. PENA. I don't know exactly.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you say that Ruperto saw these two men later on
driving past the bar; is that correct?
Mr. PENA. I wasn't there that date. I wasn't around there that date. He
saw the two men and the FBI told me if I see them coming to my place,
to call them. He saw the two men sitting in a car and--I don't know
exactly. He went to Bringuier and told Bringuier, so Bringuier called
the FBI. That's what they said. I don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have no personal knowledge of any of that?
Mr. PENA. No. I believe my brother told me he saw the men or something,
but I didn't pay no attention about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. There's no connection between these two men that your
brother, Ruperto, saw and the man who was in the bar with Oswald as far
as you know?
Mr. PENA. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether Ruperto was in the bar when
Oswald was there?
Mr. PENA. I don't believe he was there. I don't believe so.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was Evaristo Rodriguez there?
Mr. PENA. When Oswald was there?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mr. PENA. He was the one who was serving Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER [handing picture to witness]. I show you a picture that
has previously been marked as "Bringuier Exhibit No. 1," and I ask you
if you recognize anybody in that picture.
Mr. PENA. Yes, Oswald; I recognize him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Which one is Oswald?
Mr. PENA. Oswald is marked in some way.
Mr. LIEBELER. He has an "X" on him, is that correct?
Mr. PENA. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize the place where this picture was taken?
Mr. PENA. I know about it now because I seen in the FBI. They have a
place. Put it on the television. That's the International Trade Mart, I
believe so.
Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI put this picture on television?
Mr. PENA. I don't know exactly if that picture or another picture, but
they got Oswald and a group--I don't know if this group--handing out
propaganda to other people. I got in an argument with the FBI about
that, too. I told them if they had that propaganda paper, why don't
they find out the printing, where they printing that propaganda, and
that would be easy to find the other people. See, I----
Mr. LIEBELER. Why, because if they found the place where the propaganda
was printed, they would----
Mr. PENA. Yes. Those people might know Oswald and many other people in
connection with Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would it surprise you if I told you we do know who
printed the handbills?
Mr. PENA. Well--you say you do know?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mr. PENA. Okay. I took two courses in investigation work, one from the
International Detective School, and one from the Applied Sciences of
Chicago. The big man there is an ex-FBI man, Mr. Dickerson Cook. So I
took that course, too. After I finished, he sent me a letter. I like
investigation very much.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let me point out to you a young man in this picture. He
is the second man to Oswald's right and behind. He is standing there
with some leaflets in his hand. He has a white, short-sleeved shirt on
and a tie, and he appears to be handing out leaflets. Did you ever see
that man before?
Mr. PENA. I don't believe so.
Mr. LIEBELER. Could he have been the man who was with Oswald in the bar?
Mr. PENA. I couldn't say.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't recognize anybody else in that picture except
Oswald, is that correct?
Mr. PENA. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER [handing picture to witness]. I show you a picture which
has been previously identified as "Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-A," and ask
you if you recognize anybody in that picture.
Mr. PENA. I recognize Oswald there [indicating].
Mr. LIEBELER. He has a green "X" line over his head?
Mr. PENA. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize anyone else in the picture?
Mr. PENA. No.
Mr. LIEBELER [handing picture to witness]. I ask you the same question
with respect to "Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B."
Mr. PENA. I recognize him [indicating].
Mr. LIEBELER. With the green marking over his head?
Mr. PENA. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And no one else?
Mr. PENA. No.
Mr. LIEBELER [handing picture to witness]. I show you a picture which
has been previously identified as "Garner Exhibit No. 1," and ask you
if you recognize that man.
Mr. PENA. Yes; that's Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize him as the same man who was in the bar?
Mr. PENA. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER [handing picture to witness]. I show you a picture that
has been marked "Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C," and ask you if you can
identify that man.
Mr. PENA. Yes; that's Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. That's the same man who was in your bar?
Mr. PENA. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any doubt in your mind that it was Oswald who
was in your bar?
Mr. PENA. He was there.
Mr. LIEBELER. He was there?
Mr. PENA. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in my understanding of your previous
testimony that after you saw the picture of Oswald on television after
the assassination, you, yourself, recognized that as the man that had
been in the bar, even before Rodriguez mentioned it to you?
Mr. PENA. Well, I seen it and I came down. I was talking about it, and
I recognized him right away.
Mr. LIEBELER. Even before Rodriguez spoke to you about it, or was it
after Rodriguez spoke to you about it?
Mr. PENA. I was talking about it, and the man was in my place, you
know. Then Rodriguez came over and said, "You remember that man who was
drinking that lemonade?" Then my mind got clear. He just run from his
house to my house to tell me about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. You had seen Oswald on television before Rodriguez told
you about it and you thought you recognized him as having been in the
place?
Mr. PENA. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Then Rodriguez reminded you of the lemonade and then it
became clear in your mind that Oswald was the man who had ordered the
lemonade and had been in your place?
Mr. PENA. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Rodriguez told the FBI that shortly after Oswald had been
in the bar, after the lemonade incident, that he went to a doctor's
office with you and this was just before you went to Puerto Rico and
the Dominican Republic. Do you have any recollection of that?
Mr. PENA. We went to a doctor's office?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. To be more specific, Rodriguez said that while he
was riding back in the car with you, he saw Bringuier in the street
with some policemen. Do you know anything about that?
Mr. PENA. Oh, yes. They got some kind of trouble. I went out. Yes. And
they got some group, or two or three people was giving propaganda away,
and Bringuier and one or two more guys went and started an argument
with the guy who was giving the propaganda away in Canal Street. Then
the police came down and they arrested him. Bringuier, and one or
two more Cubans, and one more guy. I don't know the guy. I have seen
him, but I don't know the guy. And they put them in jail in the first
district, and they was calling Bringuier's brother-in-law. His name
is--it is----
Mr. LIEBELER. Hernandez? Is that Celso Hernandez?
Mr. PENA. No. They called me up there. I say, "Well--" so I went over
there and put a bond, $20, so they can come out.
Mr. LIEBELER. You actually went to the police station and put up bond
for Bringuier?
Mr. PENA. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. That was so that Bringuier could get out?
Mr. PENA. Yes. One or two more guys.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember seeing the incident in the street as you
drove by?
Mr. PENA. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Rodriguez tell you about it later on? He told you
that he had seen it?
Mr. PENA. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that when he was with you at that time?
Did he mention it after the doctor's appointment where you had been
together?
Mr. PENA. What you mean?
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Rodriguez tell you that he had seen Bringuier in the
street on the way back from the doctor's appointment when he was with
you?
Mr. PENA. I don't remember that.
Mr. LIEBELER. In any event, you, yourself, did not see Bringuier in the
street with the policemen at that time, and later on, after Bringuier
had been arrested, you went over to the police station and put the bond
up for Bringuier?
Mr. PENA. His brother-in-law in the store told me about it. He say, "I
can't leave the store by myself." I said, "How much would the bond be?"
Then I said, "Okay, I put the bond. Then you give it back to me."
Mr. LIEBELER. Now that was shortly before you went to Puerto Rico; is
that correct?
Mr. PENA. I don't know exactly.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether the incident with regard to the
bond was about the time that Oswald was in the bar and ordered the
lemonade, or was it not about at that time? Do you remember?
Mr. PENA. I don't remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember one time about in May or so of 1962 that
you got into a fight in your bar with some man who was standing there
listening to you talk to some of your friends?
Mr. PENA. I got so many fights in my place I don't know which one it is.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a man by the name of Garcia?
Mr. PENA. I don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Hector José Garcia?
Mr. PENA. Hector José Garcia?
Mr. LIEBELER. We have a report that there was a man in your bar who
heard you talking to two merchant seamen, and you are reported to
have said: "Castro should have been notified about that as soon as
possible." Do you remember saying anything about that?
Mr. PENA. That Castro should be notified about it?
Mr. LIEBELER. That Castro should have been notified about that as soon
as possible.
Mr. PENA. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever had anything to do with Castro?
Mr. PENA. No; not ever.
Mr. LIEBELER. You say that Rodriguez had worked as a merchant seaman
prior to the time he went to work as a bartender, is that correct?
Mr. PENA. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. About what time did he start working as a bartender?
Mr. PENA. When he came. His ship sunk and--somewhere in Costa Rica--and
they was transferred to New Orleans, and the company--agency that
he worked for bring him to New Orleans, bring a whole bunch to New
Orleans. They know I got room up in the house on the third floor. They
ask me if I got rooms, so I rent rooms to those guys, so--Evaristo,
too--so in that time, I put Evaristo to work for me.
Mr. LIEBELER. About how long ago was that?
Mr. PENA. I don't know exactly. I know it's over a year.
Mr. LIEBELER. Over a year?
Mr. PENA. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You do have a lot of fights and difficulties in your bar,
is that correct?
Mr. PENA. Yes. Arguments. You know, a barroom.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was the anti-Castro organization that you worked with
called the Cuban Revolutionary Council?
Mr. PENA. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. That was the name of it?
Mr. PENA. And the delegate here was Serrgio Arcacha. He was the boss of
the organization.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember having your picture in the paper at one
time----
Mr. PENA. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. In connection with this, on the front page?
Mr. PENA. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been some time in late December of 1960
approximately?
Mr. PENA. I don't know exactly.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that when you talked to the FBI just last
month, they asked you when you went to Puerto Rico and the Dominican
Republic in August of 1963, and they asked you the days?
Mr. PENA. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And did you subsequently discuss that with your attorney,
Mr. Tamberella?
Mr. PENA. Yes. Well, see, why, the reason I took Tamberella with me
was because from my point of view, the FBI of New Orleans ask me about
the same things so many times that somehow I was mad, so I said--about
10, 15 times they ask me the same thing over and over and over, and
Tamberella is my lawyer, so I went to Tamberella and said, "Look! They
look silly to me." They say the same thing so much, so I want to see if
I can't stop this. If they come around asking me something else, that's
okay, but for the same thing, I can't tell no more about that. He said,
"Okay, I go with you."
Mr. LIEBELER. Now my reports indicate that Mr. Tamberella called the
FBI office back after your interview and told the FBI that you had left
for Puerto Rico on August 8, 1963.
Mr. PENA. August 8?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. That you were not able to tell them the exact date
at the time of the interview, but later, Mr. Tamberella told them that.
That does not appear to be correct, does it?
Mr. PENA. I don't know exactly. It wasn't in the passport, the date?
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, the date was August 22 in the passport.
Mr. PENA. The date in the passport was the date I came out of the
Dominican Republic, the 22d. I came back on my way back to New Orleans
the 22d of August.