Mr. PENA. Yes; might be the day I came out of the Dominican Republic.
I don't know exactly. Might be the 8th because I spent 1 week--if that
date, August 22, is the date I left the Dominican Republic, might be
the 8th because I spent 2 weeks between the two places. Delta Airlines
can give you the date of the flight to Puerto Rico exactly.
Mr. LIEBELER. The only way that you and Mr. Tamberella were able to fix
the date was by looking at the stamp on the passport; is that correct?
Mr. PENA. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. If the visa stamp is the date that you left the Dominican
Republic----
Mr. PENA. It would be 14 days before that. I went 1 week in Puerto Rico
and 1 week in the Dominican Republic.
Mr. LIEBELER. If the date on the stamp was the day you went into the
Dominican Republic----
Mr. PENA. It would be 7 days before.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are absolutely clear in your mind, however, that you
were here in New Orleans on the day that Bringuier was arrested in
connection with the propaganda demonstration on the street because you
put up the bond to get him out. If I told you that that happened on
August 9, 1963, that would indicate that you were here in New Orleans
at that time and that you must have left some time subsequent to August
9, 1963?
Mr. PENA. I don't know. It might be another time, but the time I placed
the bond for him, I was here because I was the one went up to the first
precinct to give the money.
Mr. LIEBELER. That was the time Bringuier had gotten into a fight with
this man over distributing propaganda leaflets?
Mr. PENA. I didn't see the fight.
Mr. LIEBELER. But he told you about it?
Mr. PENA. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how this fight came about?
Mr. PENA. Some other Cuban, a friend of Bringuier's, one of the Cubans
I placed the bond for, came to Bringuier's store--that's what they told
me about it, what I hear--and told Bringuier, "Look, Bringuier, there
is a man there giving propaganda against the Cuban Society in favor
of Castro." So Bringuier came out, but the two men got away, and how
they--I don't know what happened, what was the argument, but they got
arrested by the policemen.
Mr. LIEBELER. That was the time when you put up the bond to get him out?
Mr. PENA. Yes; if that's the same time. I don't know if he got in some
other trouble like that a different time. I don't know. I put bond for
him one time. I don't know if it was--I don't remember exactly.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, the description of the incident that you have given
us about the propaganda sounds very much like the one that occurred on
August 9, and the man who was handing out the literature was Oswald,
and Bringuier was arrested along with two other men along with Oswald.
That would seem to place you here in the United States at that time.
We can always check what the procedure is on that visa stamp so we can
figure out when you left the United States.
Mr. PENA. You don't need a visa to go to Puerto Rico when you are an
American citizen, but the Delta Airlines, if they keep records, can
give you the exact date and the hour I left New Orleans to go to San
Juan, P.R., last summer. I know it was in August because in August is
my birthday.
Mr. LIEBELER. You went to Puerto Rico on your birthday?
Mr. PENA. Well, I stay there on my birthday.
Mr. LIEBELER. When is your birthday?
Mr. PENA. August 15.
Mr. LIEBELER. August 16?
Mr. PENA. Fifteen.
Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a photographic copy of a passport application
dated June 24, 1963, and ask you if that is a copy of the passport
application that you filled out on or about that day [handing document
to witness].
Mr. PENA. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. That is a copy of your passport application, is it?
Mr. PENA. I believe so.
Mr. LIEBELER. I would like to mark that as "Orest Pena Exhibit No. 1,"
and I will just write it on here if I may.
(Whereupon, the document offered by counsel was duly marked for
identification as "Orest Pena Exhibit No. 1.")
Mr. LIEBELER. I have marked this "Orest Pena Exhibit No. 1," New
Orleans, July 21, 1964, and I have placed my initials on it. Would you
initial it below my initials just so we know we are talking about the
same document.
Mr. PENA. Over here [indicating]?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; just put your initials on it.
(Witness complying.)
Mr. LIEBELER. Now this application also has a part 2, which is required
to be filled out by naturalized citizens. That is also a part of your
application; is it not? [Handing document to witness.] Is that a part
of your application, too, Mr. Pena?
Mr. PENA. I don't know. Might be. Something wrong here. How--went to
Mexico? I don't know exactly.
Mr. LIEBELER. What's the problem?
Mr. PENA. I don't know. Says here I was in Mexico. I don't know when
I went to Mexico. When I got my passport, I don't remember exactly. I
believe I got my passport--when I went to Mexico? How come it says here
I went to Mexico?
Mr. LIEBELER. You told us you went to Mexico in May of 1963, if I am
not mistaken. Is that right?
Mr. PENA. I know I went to Mexico last year.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, this passport application, the one that we have
already marked, is dated June 24, and the part, the supplement to it,
or what purports to be a supplement to it indicates that you went to
Mexico for 8 days in May of 1963. Now this part that we are looking at
is not signed by you at any point.
Mr. PENA. You mean that's when I applied for my passport?
Mr. LIEBELER. No; you applied for your passport on June 24, 1963. That
was after you came back from Mexico. You didn't need your passport to
go to Mexico. I don't think you did, anyway.
Mr. PENA. Yes; I believe so. I got my citizen papers; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. But the information that is set forth on this second part
of the application, to the extent that it indicates that you went to
Cuba in 1959 in May and April, is correct, is it not?
Mr. PENA. Well, I don't know the exact date, but it was around there,
somewhere around there.
Mr. LIEBELER. The information that you came to the United States in
October of 1946 is correct, is it not? That's correct approximately?
Mr. PENA. Yes; around.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you lived at 223 West 105th Street in New York City,
did you not, for a time?
Mr. PENA. Yes; I lived in that place.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now on the application, the original application that we
have marked as "Exhibit No. 1," which you signed, it indicates, does it
not, that you were going to go to Spain and that you planned to go to
Spain for a vacation trip of approximately 2 weeks.
Mr. PENA. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now in fact, you didn't go to Spain at that time; is that
right?
Mr. PENA. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You went to Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic?
Mr. PENA. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What made you change your mind about that?
Mr. PENA. I don't know; I just changed my mind. I postponed the trip to
Europe for this year.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall that you did plan to go to Spain on
vacation?
Mr. PENA. What?
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall that you did plan to go to Spain on
vacation?
Mr. PENA. Yes, sir. That's where I did take my passport. You also use a
passport.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you fill this application out?
Mr. PENA. Right here in New Orleans at 701 Loyola Street, if I am not
wrong, the new Federal building.
Mr. LIEBELER. At 701 Loyola Street, the new Federal building?
Mr. PENA. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Lee Harvey Oswald at the passport office on
the day you applied for this passport?
Mr. PENA. I don't believe he was there.
Mr. LIEBELER. He applied for a passport on the same day.
Mr. PENA. He applied for the passport on the same day?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mr. PENA. I don't remember seeing him there. I remember the day I
applied for my passport there were a lot of people from--I don't know
from where, India or Africa. You know, colored people. There were some
people there. They were seamen or something, and one American girl got
all of those colored people. She was helping all of them that day. A
bunch of people there, colored people.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have no recollection of seeing Oswald there at that
time?
Mr. PENA. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you know, you never saw Oswald at any time
other than that time you saw him in your bar?
Mr. PENA. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. He never had any conversation with you; is that correct?
Mr. PENA. Not that I recall.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have any other Federal agencies besides the FBI
interviewed you?
Mr. PENA. You see, before, they used to go there and say, "We are from
the Federal Bureau," and would just talk to them. I didn't know what
agency. I never took no one's name or anything until later my lawyer
told me, "Every time you talk to one of these men, get their name,
where they come from." That was very, very much later. Before, they
would just come around and tell me that they are asking me many things
about people that was for Castro. When you got a barroom, especially in
Spanish like I got--most of my customers are Spanish seamen, foreign
seamen--you hear the way they talk, and before, as I was against
Batista--most of the people here for Castro, really for Castro--they
was going to my place. So when I joined the organization against Castro
in New Orleans, one of the agents of the FBI, De Brueys, started going
to my place very, very often asking me about many different people,
Spanish people, what I knew, what I thought. I told him what I knew;
that some people was for Castro and some people was against. I told him
what I saw. I never did ask him what he found out about those people.
Mr. LIEBELER. Sometimes you would call the FBI and give them
information, too; is that correct?
Mr. PENA. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Information that you picked up from conversations that
took place at your bar and listening to those seamen?
Mr. PENA. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now I have been provided with what are supposed to be all
of the FBI reports about their conversations relating to the Oswald
case, and as far as I can tell, the only time the FBI has spoken to you
about that was back in December 1963, shortly after the assassination,
and then again in June 1964 just a short time ago; when they came to
question you again at my request after I had----
Mr. PENA. Just those two times?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; just twice.
Mr. PENA. I believe it's very many more times than that.
Mr. LIEBELER. You think it is more times than that?
Mr. PENA. Oh, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are sure these were FBI men?
Mr. PENA. I don't know because, as I told you before, I didn't used to
get the names until my lawyer told me, "Look! Every time you talk to
one of those people, you better get the name and write it down so you
know who you are talking about."
Mr. LIEBELER. You wanted to tell me something about the FBI in New
Orleans. Why don't you do that now.
Mr. PENA. You see, I started--like I told you, when that organization
moved in New Orleans----
Mr. LIEBELER. This is the anti-Castro organization?
Mr. PENA. Yes. So I went down there and joined the organization. In
1959 when I went to Cuba, my mother told me how everything was going;
so she says, "He is even worse than Batista." So when I came back, I
joined the organization a little bit after that, the organization here
in New Orleans. So I went and joined them and started working for the
organization collecting money at my place of business and giving my
own money for many things to the organization, you know, a dollar, two
dollars. Then De Brueys came to the organization. Maybe--I don't know
if sent by the Government or how, but he went to the organization.
Mr. LIEBELER. He joined it?
Mr. PENA. No; he didn't join it, but he was sticking with the
organization very, very close.
Mr. LIEBELER. They knew he was an FBI agent?
Mr. PENA. Yes; we knew he was an FBI agent. So from time to time he
called me at my place. He went to my place and was asking me about this
guy and that guy, different people here in New Orleans. So I told him
what I thought about the men. I tell you that and then you find out if
I am right or if I am wrong. I never did ask if I was right or wrong.
I told him about people that I am for sure they are for Castro here
in New Orleans. So one way or the other, he was interfering with me
somehow, Mr. De Brueys, so----
Mr. LIEBELER. De Brueys was interfering with you?
Mr. PENA. Yes. Somehow. So one day I went to the FBI. They called me to
the FBI. I don't remember exactly for what they called me. So I told
De Brueys'--I told De Brueys' or somebody else that I talked to--De
Brueys' boss--I didn't ask them who it was. They was FBI. They was in
the FBI office--I told the agency there I don't talk to De Brueys. I
don't trust him as an American.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell them any reasons why you didn't?
Mr. PENA. Because he was interfering very close with the organization
against Castro. So since that day--we got in a little bit of argument
there. We was talking about somebody. The FBI asked me about a man that
had been in the group before, about somebody--if I knew somebody--if I
knew his way for signing. So I asked De Brueys, "Did I told you about
this man?" He said, "No." I got mad. I said, "If you said I didn't
told you about that man, I don't trust you as an American, to be for
an American." So 2 days later he went to my place of business. He said
to me at the table, "I want to talk to you." I said, "Okay, let's go."
He said not to talk about him any more because what he could do is get
me in big trouble. He said, "I am an FBI man. I can get you in big
trouble." But he made a mistake. I had a girl that was with me that was
here when he was discussing me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Somebody else was there and heard it?
Mr. PENA. Yes. He was discussing me not to talk about it. He was an
FBI man and he could get me in big trouble. So I talked to my girl
friend and said, "Look, I better pull out of this thing. What the FBI
wants me is to pull away from that organization and just keep away from
those things, politics," so I pull away, and I never did heard from the
FBI any more until Mr. Kennedy got assassinated. They left me alone
completely. They never asked me after I pulled out of the organization.
After that, I never listened to anybody talking about politics in the
place. I tried to keep out of it the most I could. They never did call
me any more until Oswald got--and then they started coming here talking
to me because we was talking about the incident.
Mr. LIEBELER. So your complaints about the FBI here in New Orleans
relate basically to the anti-Castro proposition and not to the
investigation of the assassination; is that correct?
Mr. PENA. No, no. That was way before.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't have any criticism of the FBI as far as the
investigation of the Kennedy assassination was concerned except that
you just don't like to talk to the FBI any more; is that right?
Mr. PENA. You mean after the assassination?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mr. PENA. After the assassination, they came and asked me so many times
about the same thing, lemonade, it just looked silly to me. They came
over so many times, I said, I better do something about it. I called
my lawyer and said, "Look! I don't know anything else about this. I
want you to go with me there and put it clear that that's what I know
about it and I don't want no more part of that." The thing--I got in an
argument with one of the men there, the same thing I told you about the
printing and the propaganda. I told him how I feel about that. I don't
know whether I was right or wrong. He told me that the United States is
a big country and it was hard to find. I told him, "I don't agree with
you." I told him that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who?
Mr. PENA. I talked to the agency about if that propaganda, where they
was printing that propaganda, and I said, "Why can't you find that
place?" He said, "Because the United States is a big country." I said,
"It doesn't matter. Each printing has their own type or letter that can
be found somehow."
Mr. LIEBELER. So you told this FBI agent that they should find where
the propaganda literature had been printed?
Mr. PENA. The propaganda that Oswald was giving away. They put that on
television about 4 or 5 days after the assassination--Oswald giving
that propaganda. They knew that Oswald was giving that propaganda away
before Mr. Kennedy was killed. They got all of that propaganda and all
of that film taken of Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. You think they should find where those leaflets were
printed? This is what you told them?
Mr. PENA. The little bit I know about the investigation, they even--let
me see how to say it. Let me see--they even keep Oswald from killing
Mr. Kennedy. From my point of view as an investigator, if they went all
the way from that propaganda, from where it was printed, maybe they can
put Oswald in jail. Maybe the President not be killed. That was before
Mr. Kennedy was killed.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask you this: Do you have any evidence or do
you know of any evidence that would link Oswald to anybody else in a
conspiracy to assassinate the President?
Mr. PENA. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any information or knowledge that Oswald was
involved with pro-Castro people in connection with the assassination?
Mr. PENA. No; I can't tell you that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any information that this was a pro-Castro or
a Castro plot to assassinate President Kennedy?
Mr. PENA. No; I can't say that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether anybody else in New Orleans has any
information like that?
Mr. PENA. No; I can't say that.
Mr. LIEBELER. What about Bringuier?
Mr. PENA. What I think about Bringuier? He is just trying to get big
name, collecting big name to make himself big when he come back to
Cuba. Be one of the bosses. That's my point of view. I told you he
don't like the United States and what I told you about; you can bring
him here and tell him that Orest Pena told you that. I will stand a
lie-detector test and invite him to take one, and I invite De Brueys,
too, to ask De Brueys if that's true or not true he went to my place
and tried to intimidate me. If he say no, I take a lie-detector test
and he take a lie-detector test and maybe you will find one Communist
in the FBI.
Mr. LIEBELER. You think that Bringuier is using his association with
Oswald to give himself a big name in connection with that?
Mr. PENA. That's what it is.
Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you know, Bringuier doesn't have any evidence
that there was a pro-Castro plot to assassinate the President.
Mr. PENA. No; I don't know. See, Bringuier know Oswald very well. He
told me one time--I don't know if that is true or not--he said that
Oswald brought him some kind of manual or a book. I believe he still
have the book. And Bringuier has his own organization here. They call
it----
Mr. LIEBELER. DRE?
Mr. PENA. Cuban something.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the DRE?
Mr. PENA. Yes; something.
Mr. LIEBELER. Cuban Students Directory?
Mr. PENA. He said Oswald came to infiltrate in his organization.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that Oswald came to his store?
Mr. PENA. Yes. That's what he told me. Before, I used to talk to him,
go there or he came to my place.
Mr. LIEBELER. You and Mr. Bringuier are not too good friends any more;
is that right?
Mr. PENA. We was quite close until--when they started the blockade in
Cuba, the way he spoke about President Kennedy. And I pulled a little
bit out. I even used to give him sometimes more than $2. I don't know.
He collected to send to Miami, if he don't send it somewhere else.
That's what he said.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have anything else that you want to tell us at
this time, Mr. Pena, that I haven't asked you about that you think we
should know about?
Mr. PENA. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You can't think of anything?
Mr. PENA. I tell you, Bringuier don't do many things that he will tell
you. He don't like America. Time will tell. He is one of the guys
that--do you remember when they were saying, "Yankee, go home," in
Cuba? He was in Cuba at that time. He was calling, "Yankee, go home."
Mr. LIEBELER. Has he ever favored Castro that you know of?
Mr. PENA. Oh, of course.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who, Bringuier?
Mr. PENA. Yes. He said not?
Mr. LIEBELER. I am asking you did he ever favor Castro.
Mr. PENA. I was in Cuba. I left Cuba very long time ago. I never was
involved in any kind of politics. I didn't like Batista, but I wasn't
in any organization.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't know of any.
Mr. PENA. What I know about people, what I hear in my place, or what I
hear other people talking, and what I hear about Bringuier was, when
Castro started with his revolution of Cuba, he was one of the Cubans in
the revolution calling, "Yankee, go home."
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't think that Bringuier is in favor of Castro at
this time?
Mr. PENA. He? No, no. He hate Castro and he hate Russia, but he hates
America as much, too. He just want to go back to Cuba and be one of the
bosses.
Mr. LIEBELER. Be a big man?
Mr. PENA. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. All right, Mr. Pena. I want to thank you very much for
coming in.
Mr. PENA. I want you to know something: I love the United States more
than many people that are born in this country and I got a place of
business and I hear--they don't talk much now. They are very scared,
but before, when Castro was started, I learn many people, how much they
was against this country, people that was born in this country. I love
this country, believe me. Maybe you don't believe me or have a bad
report about me, but nobody make me a Communist. Believe that. Believe
it or not.
Mr. LIEBELER. All right. Thank you very much.