Mr. LIEBELER. Is this fellow a homosexual, do you say?
Mr. ANDREWS. Bisexual. What they call a swinging cat.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you haven't seen him at any time since that day?
Mr. ANDREWS. I haven't seen him since.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now have you had your office searched for any records
relating to Clay Bertrand?
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you found anything?
Mr. ANDREWS. No; nothing.
Mr. LIEBELER. Has this fellow Bertrand sent you business in the past?
Mr. ANDREWS. Prior to--I guess the last time would be February of 1963.
Mr. LIEBELER. And mostly he refers, I think you said, these gay kids,
is that right?
Mr. ANDREWS. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. In discussing this matter with your private detective,
Mr. Davis, and Miss Springer, your secretary, have you asked them
whether or not they have any recollection of ever having seen Oswald in
the office?
Mr. ANDREWS. Davis does; Springer doesn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Davis does have a recollection?
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; he recalls. He usually stays with me until about
closing time. We review whatever he is doing, and he remembers them as
a group.
Mr. LIEBELER. So he was there then the first time they were there? The
only time that he was with a group is the first time, is that right?
Mr. ANDREWS. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed with Miss Springer and Mr. Davis the
whereabouts or any recollection they might have about Clay Bertrand?
Mr. ANDREWS. They weren't with me, I believe, at the time I knew
Bertrand.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed it with them?
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; but they weren't employed by me at the time I knew
him.
Mr. LIEBELER. So they have no recollection of Bertrand?
Mr. ANDREWS. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. When Oswald came into your office, of course, he told you
what his name was, didn't he?
Mr. ANDREWS. Lee Oswald. I don't know whether that's his name or not.
Mr. LIEBELER. But that's what he told you?
Mr. ANDREWS. That's what he told me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember discussing or mentioning his name to
Davis at any time prior to November 23, 1963?
Mr. ANDREWS. What the procedure is--I am in a different office now than
I was then, and it was a very small office, and they would come into
it--well, what I would call my office--and they just had the reception
room out in the front, and Davis would go out there, and on those
matters, it's not a matter that he would be discussing, but probably
some words passed as to the swishing and the characteristics that they
had, but other than that in the business, unless something is assigned
to him, he knows nothing in that office unless it is assigned to him.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you say you probably did not mention Oswald's name to
Davis?
Mr. ANDREWS. I probably did not, other than we commented on the group
in general, but none of the business that was involved or any names.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is it an extraordinary thing for a bunch of gay kids to
come into your office like that, or did they come from time to time?
Mr. ANDREWS. Well, let's see. Last week there were six of them in
there. Depends on how bad the police are rousing them. They shoo them
in. My best customers are the police. They shoo them into the office.
God bless the police.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever know a man by the name of Kerry Thornley as
one of these gay kids?
Mr. ANDREWS. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever heard of Thornley?
Mr. ANDREWS. No; I represent them and that's about all there is to it.
When they owe me money, I know where to go grab them, and that's about
as far as if goes. Is he supposed to be down here?
Mr. LIEBELER. Thornley?
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; I can find out if he ever made the scene here real
easy.
Mr. LIEBELER. No; he is not in New Orleans, I don't think, at the
moment. When Oswald told you about his discharge, did he tell you what
branch of the service he had been in?
Mr. ANDREWS. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you why he got discharged?
Mr. ANDREWS. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what kind of a discharge he had?
Mr. ANDREWS. He told me he was dishonorably discharged. That's what I
call a yellow sheet discharge. I told him I needed his serial number,
the service he was in, the approximate time he got discharged, and, I
think, $15 or $25, I forget which, and to take the service, his rate
or rank, the serial number, and to write to the Adjutant General for
the transcript of the proceedings that washed him out so that they
could be examined and see if there was any method of reopening or
reconsideration on the file.
Mr. LIEBELER. But he did not tell you any of those things?
Mr. ANDREWS. No; he said he would come back, and he came back, but I
still didn't get his serial number and I still didn't get the money.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember specifically that he stated he had a
dishonorable discharge as opposed to some other kind of discharge? Do
you have a specific recollection on that?
Mr. ANDREWS. We call them in the Navy, B.C.D.'s and I associated that.
He never mentioned the specific type discharge. It was one that was
other than honorable, as we would put it in the legal sense. I just
assumed it was a B.C.D. if he was in the Marines or Navy. If he was in
the Army, it's a yellow discharge.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you if he was working at that time or if he
had a job when he first came into your office?
Mr. ANDREWS. Never asked him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he associate his other than honorable discharge with
difficulty in obtaining employment?
Mr. ANDREWS. I just don't remember. He had a reason why he wanted it
reopened. What, I don't recall. He had a reason. I don't recall. He
mentioned a reason, but I don't recall. I was trying to remember where
they were seated to see if that would help, but no.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell me approximately how tall Oswald was.
Mr. ANDREWS. Oh, about 5 feet 6 inches, 5 feet 7 inches, I guess.
Mr. LIEBELER. And about how much did he weigh?
Mr. ANDREWS. About 135, 140.
Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions. Do you have
anything else that you would like to add?
Mr. ANDREWS. I wish I could be more specific, that's all. This is my
impression, for whatever it is worth, of Clay Bertrand: His connections
with Oswald I don't know at all. I think he is a lawyer without a brief
case. That's my opinion. He sends the kids different places. Whether
this boy is associated with Lee Oswald or not, I don't know, but I
would say, when I met him about 6 weeks ago when I ran up on him and he
ran away from me, he could be running because he owes me money, or he
could be running because they have been squeezing the quarter pretty
good looking for him while I was in the hospital, and somebody might
have passed the word he was hot and I was looking for him, but I have
never been able to figure out the reason why he would call me, and
the only other part of this thing that I understand, but apparently I
haven't been able to communicate, is I called Monk Zelden on a Sunday
at the N.O.A.C. and asked Monk if he would go over--be interested in
a retainer and go over to Dallas and see about that boy. I thought
I called Monk once. Monk says we talked twice. I don't remember the
second. It's all one conversation with me. Only thing I do remember
about it, while I was talking with Monk, he said, Don't worry about
it. Your client just got shot. That was the end of the case. Even if
he was a bona fide client, I never did get to him; somebody else got
to him before I did. Other than that, that's the whole thing, but this
boy Bertrand has been bugging me ever since. I will find him sooner or
later.
Mr. LIEBELER. Does Bertrand owe you money?
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; I ain't looking for him for that. I want to find
out why he called me on behalf of this boy after the President was
assassinated.
Mr. LIEBELER. How come Bertrand owes you money?
Mr. ANDREWS. I have done him some legal work that he has failed to pay
the office for.
Mr. LIEBELER. When was that?
Mr. ANDREWS. That's in a period of years that I have--like you are
Bertrand. You call up and ask me to go down and get Mr. X out. If Mr. X
doesn't pay on those kinds of calls, Bertrand has a guarantee for the
payment of appearance. One or two of these kids had skipped. I had to
go pay the penalty, which was a lot of trouble.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were going to hold Bertrand for that?
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald appear to you to be gay?
Mr. ANDREWS. You can't tell. I couldn't say. He swang with the kids. He
didn't swish, but birds of a feather flock together. I don't know any
squares that run with them. They may go down to look.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you say he didn't swish, what do you mean by that?
Mr. ANDREWS. He is not effeminate; his voice isn't squeaky; he didn't
walk like or talk like a girl; he walks and talks like a man.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you notice anything about the way he walked? Was
there anything striking about the way he carried himself?
Mr. ANDREWS. I never paid attention. I never watched him walk other
than into and out of the office. There's nothing that would draw my
attention to anything out of the ordinary, but I just assumed that he
knew these people and was running with them. They had no reason to
come. The three gay kids he was with, they were ostentatious. They were
what we call swishers. You can just look at them. All they had to do
was open their mouth. That was it. Walk, they can swing better than
Sammy Kaye. They do real good. With those pronounced ones, you never
know what the relationship is with anyone else with them, but I have
no way of telling whether he is gay or not, other than he came in with
what they call here queens. That's about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have never seen any of these people since that first
day they came into your office with Oswald, that first day and when you
saw them down at the police station?
Mr. ANDREWS. The three queens? The three gay boys? No; I have never
seen them.
Mr. LIEBELER. There were just three of them?
Mr. ANDREWS. The Latin type. Mexicanos will crop their hair and a Latin
won't, so I assume he is a Mex.
Mr. LIEBELER. So altogether there were five of them that came into the
office?
Mr. ANDREWS. Five. The only other thing that shook me to my toes--you
have the other part--the Secret Service brought me some things. They
don't have the complete photograph. They have another photograph with
the two Realpey sisters. They are actually in the office, and that
shook me down to my toes pretty good.
Mr. LIEBELER [handing picture to witness]. The picture you refer to
might be Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B. Is that the one?
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes, this is it. Victoria Realpey-Plaza and her sister
Marguerite Realpey-Plaza, and I can't recall this young lady's name
here at all [indicating].