The testimony of Dean Adams Andrews, Jr., was taken on July 21, 1964,
at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans,
La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's
Commission.
Dean Andrews, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified
as follows:
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Andrews, as you know by now, I am an attorney on
the staff of the President's Commission. I have been authorized to
take your deposition pursuant to authority granted to the Commission
by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and joint
resolution of Congress, No. 137.
I understand that the Secret Service served a subpena on you last
week to be here today, so you have had the requisite notice for the
proceeding.
As you are a member of the bar--as you know, of course, you are
entitled to counsel, but you can probably forego that if you want to.
You also know that you have all the usual privileges not to answer
questions on the grounds of incrimination and whatever other privileges
you might have and want to exercise.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record, please.
Mr. ANDREWS. Dean, and the middle initial is A, A for Adams, Andrews,
Jr.
Mr. LIEBELER. I am correct, am I not, that you are a member of the Bar
of Louisiana?
Mr. ANDREWS. I am a member of the bar of the State of Louisiana.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you regularly practice law in the city of New Orleans?
Mr. ANDREWS. That's my office; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live?
Mr. ANDREWS. 207 Metairie Lawn Drive. That's in Metairie, La.
Mr. LIEBELER. Metairie Lawn Drive in Metairie?
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you maintain your offices?
Mr. ANDREWS. 627 Maison Blanche Building, New Orleans.
Mr. LIEBELER. I am advised by the FBI that you told them that Lee
Harvey Oswald came into your office some time during the summer of
1963. Would you tell us in your own words just what happened as far as
that is concerned?
Mr. ANDREWS. I don't recall the dates, but briefly, it is this:
Oswald came in the office accompanied by some gay kids. They were
Mexicanos. He wanted to find out what could be done in connection with
a discharge, a yellow paper discharge, so I explained to him he would
have to advance the funds to transcribe whatever records they had up in
the Adjutant General's office. When he brought the money, I would do
the work, and we saw him three or four times subsequent to that, not in
the company of the gay kids. He had this Mexicano with him. I assume he
is a Mex because the Latins do not wear a butch haircut.
Mr. LIEBELER. The first time he came in he was with these Mexicans, and
there were also some gay kids. By that, of course, you mean people that
appeared to you to be homosexuals?
Mr. ANDREWS. Well, they swish. What they are, I don't know. We call
them gay kids.
Mr. LIEBELER. Had you ever seen any of those kids before?
Mr. ANDREWS. None of them.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you seen any of them since?
Mr. ANDREWS. Since the first time they came in?
Mr. LIEBELER. Since the first time they came in?
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have?
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did they ever come back with Oswald?
Mr. ANDREWS. No; Mexicanos came back.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you see these gay kids after the first time?
Mr. ANDREWS. First district precinct. Police picked them up for wearing
clothes of the opposite sex.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many of them were there?
Mr. ANDREWS. About 50.
Mr. LIEBELER. They weren't all with Oswald, were they?
Mr. ANDREWS. No; Oswald--you see, they made what they call a scoop and
put them all in the pokey. I went down for the ones I represented. They
were in the holding pavilion. I paroled them and got them out.
Mr. LIEBELER. You do represent from time to time some of these gay
kids, is that correct?
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You say that some of the gay kids that you saw at the
time the police arrested this large group of them for wearing clothes
of the opposite sex were the ones that had been with Oswald?
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you able to identify them by name?
Mr. ANDREWS. No; you see, they just--we don't even open up files on
them. We don't open a file. We mark what we call a working file. We
make a few notes and put it in the general week's work. If you come
back and the office is retained, we make a permanent file and--but
these kids come and go like--you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. When were these people picked up by the police as you
have told us?
Mr. ANDREWS. Let me think. Some time in May. I went and checked the
records. I couldn't find nothing on it. I believe it's May of 1963.
Mr. LIEBELER. They were picked up in May of 1963?
Mr. ANDREWS. On Friday.
Mr. LIEBELER. That was after Oswald had been in your office?
Mr. ANDREWS. After Oswald's initial contact. I think he had come back
with this Mexicano one more time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Before these people were arrested?
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; then the second time he came back, we talked about
the yellow paper discharge, about his status as a citizen, and about
his wife's status.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now before we get into that, let me try and pin down how
long it was after the first time Oswald came in that these kids all
got arrested. All 50 of them for wearing these clothes?
Mr. ANDREWS. I don't know it was 50. That I can't remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was it a month? Two months? A week?
Mr. ANDREWS. No; it wasn't that. Ten days at the most.
Mr. LIEBELER. I suppose the New Orleans Police Department files would
reflect the dates these people were picked up?
Mr. ANDREWS. I checked the first district's blotter and the people are
there, but I just can't get their names. You see, they wear names just
like you and I wear clothes. Today their name is Candy; tomorrow it is
Butsie; next day it is Mary. You never know what they are. Names are
a very improbable method of identification. More sight. Like you see
a dog. He is black and white. That's your dog. You know them by sight
mostly.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what date it was that that large arrest
was made?
Mr. ANDREWS. No; every Friday is arrest day in New Orleans. They clean
them all up. The shotgun squad keeps the riots, the mugging, and all
the humbug out. They have been doing that very effectively. You can
pick just any Friday.
Mr. LIEBELER. This was on a Friday?
Mr. ANDREWS. It had to be a Friday or Saturday.
Mr. LIEBELER. In May of 1963?
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. After you saw these kids at this big pickup on Friday or
Saturday, did you ever see any of them again after that?
Mr. ANDREWS. No; still looking for them. They owe me a fee.
Mr. LIEBELER. They are always the hardest ones to find.
Mr. ANDREWS. They usually pay. They are screwed in.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did Oswald say to you about his own citizenship
status? You say that he mentioned that the second time he came back.
What did he talk to you about in that regard?
Mr. ANDREWS. They came in usually after hours, about 5, 5:15, and as
I recall, he had alleged that he had abandoned his citizenship. He
didn't say how; he didn't say where. I assumed that he was one of the
people who wanted to join The Free World and--I represented one or
two of them. They had belonged to The World Citizenship--I explained
to him there are certain steps he had to do, such as taking an oath
of loyalty to a foreign power, voting in a foreign country election,
or some method that is recognized defectively as loss of citizenship.
Then I told him, "Your presence in the United States is proof you are
a citizen. Otherwise, you would be an alien with an alien registration
with a green card, form 990."
Mr. LIEBELER. Had he told you he had been out of the country?
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you where he had gone?
Mr. ANDREWS. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Since he had been out of the country, the fact that he
was back and didn't have an alien card was proof he was a citizen?
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any other part of the conversation?
Mr. ANDREWS. When he asked the questions--I don't know which visit it
was--about citizenship of his wife, I asked the birthplace or origin
cited for citizenship purposes--that's what counts--and he said Russia,
so I just assumed he had met someone somewhere, some place, either in
Russia or in Europe, married them, and brought them over here as a GI,
a GI bride, and wanted to go through the routine of naturalization,
which is 3 years after lawful admission into the United States if you
are married, and five years if you are not, maintain the status here in
the States cumulatively for 5 years.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate that he wanted to institute citizenship
proceedings for his wife?
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; I told him to go to Immigration and get the forms.
Cost him $10. All he had to do was execute them. He didn't need a
lawyer. That was the end of that.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many times did he come into your office?
Mr. ANDREWS. Minimum of three, maximum of five, counting initial visit.
Mr. LIEBELER. And did you talk about different subjects at different
times? As I understand it, the first time he came there, he was
primarily concerned about his discharge, is that correct?
Mr. ANDREWS. Well, I may have the subject matter of the visits reversed
because with the company he kept and the conversation--he could talk
fairly well--I figured that this was another one of what we call in my
office free alley clients, so we didn't maintain the normalcy with the
file that--might have scratched a few notes on a piece of pad, and 2
days later threw the whole thing away. Didn't pay too much attention to
him. Only time I really paid attention to this boy, he was in the front
of the Maison Blanche Building giving out these kooky Castro things.
Mr. LIEBELER. When was this, approximately?
Mr. ANDREWS. I don't remember. I was coming from the NBC building, and
I walked past him. You know how you see somebody, recognize him. So I
turned around, came back, and asked him what he was doing giving that
junk out. He said it was a job. I reminded him of the $25 he owed the
office. He said he would come over there, but he never did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he was getting paid to hand out this
literature?
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how much?
Mr. ANDREWS. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember telling the FBI that he told you that he
was being paid $25 a day for handing out these leaflets?
Mr. ANDREWS. I could have told them that. I know I reminded him of the
$25. I may have it confused, the $25. What I do recall, he said it was
a job. I guess I asked him how much he was making. They were little
square chits a little bit smaller than the picture you have of him over
there [indicating].
Mr. LIEBELER. He was handing out these leaflets?
Mr. ANDREWS. They were black-and-white pamphlets extolling the virtues
of Castro, which around here doesn't do too good. They have a lot of
guys, Mexicanos and Cubanos, that will tear your head off if they see
you fooling with these things.
Mr. LIEBELER. What were they like?
Mr. ANDREWS. They were pamphlets, single-sheet pamphlets.
Mr. LIEBELER. Just one sheet? It wasn't a booklet?
Mr. ANDREWS. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. What color were the pamphlets? You say it was white paper?
Mr. ANDREWS. White paper offset with black.
Mr. LIEBELER. Could it have been yellow paper?
Mr. ANDREWS. I am totally colorblind. I wouldn't know. But I think it
is black and white.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are colorblind?
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes. Most of them wanted it around there. You give it to
them, the people look at it and they drop it, right now.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what day of the week this was that you
saw him handing this stuff out?
Mr. ANDREWS. It was in the middle of the week, around Tuesday or
Wednesday.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where is the Maison Blanche Building? What street is it
on?
Mr. ANDREWS. 921 Canal Street. It is on this side. It is bounded by
Dauphine and Burgundy.
Mr. LIEBELER. How far is it from the International Trade Mart?
Mr. ANDREWS. It depends on what route you take. If you come up Camp
Street, it would be two blocks to Canal and four blocks toward the
cemetery; so it would be about six blocks. It would be six blocks no
matter which way you went, but you would walk four blocks on Common
Street or Gravier, and then two blocks over the other way.
Mr. LIEBELER [handing picture to witness]. I show you a picture
that has been marked as "Garner Exhibit No. 1," and ask you if you
recognize the individual in that picture and the street scene, if you
are familiar with it.
Mr. ANDREWS. This is Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. That's the fellow who was in your office?
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any doubt about that in your mind?
Mr. ANDREWS. I don't believe; no. This is him. I just can't place it.
This isn't where I saw him. This is probably around the vicinity of the
International Trade Mart.
Mr. LIEBELER [handing picture to witness]. I show you another picture
that has been marked for identification as "Bringuier Exhibit No. 1,"
and ask you if you recognize anybody in that picture and the street
scene.
Mr. ANDREWS. Oswald is marked with an X, and a client of mine is over
here on the right-hand side.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that a a paying client or what?
Mr. ANDREWS. No; paying client [indicating]. And this dress belongs to
a girl friend.
Mr. LIEBELER. Which one is your client?
Mr. ANDREWS. It should be three. There's two sisters and this young
lady [indicating].
Mr. LIEBELER. What's her name?
Mr. ANDREWS. I don't remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are referring to the woman that appears on the far
right-hand side of the picture with a handbag on her arm?
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now you say Oswald is marked with an X, and you identify
that as the man that you saw in your office and the same man you saw
passing out pamphlets?
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. I call your attention specifically to the second man who
is standing behind Oswald to his right and facing toward the front
wearing a white, short-sleeved shirt and necktie, who also appears to
have some leaflets in his hand. Have you ever seen that man before?
Mr. ANDREWS. The Mexicano that I associate Oswald with is approximately
the same height, with the exception that he has a pronounced short
butch haircut. He is stocky, well built.
Mr. LIEBELER. The fellow that I have indicated to you on "Bringuier
Exhibit No. 1" is too slightly built to be associated with Oswald; is
that correct?
Mr. ANDREWS. He is stocky. Has what they call an athletic build.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was this other fellow taller than Oswald or shorter than
Oswald?
Mr. ANDREWS. Very close. Not taller. Probably same height; maybe a
little smaller.
Mr. LIEBELER. How much would you say the Mexican weighed, approximately?
Mr. ANDREWS. About 160, 165.
Mr. LIEBELER. You say he was of medium build or heavy build?
Mr. ANDREWS. Well, stocky. He could go to "Fist City" pretty good if he
had to.
Mr. LIEBELER. How old would you say he was?
Mr. ANDREWS. About 26. Hard to tell.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what he was wearing when he came into the
office with Oswald on these different occasions?
Mr. ANDREWS. Normally, different colored silk pongee shirts, which are
pretty rare, you know, for the heat, or what appeared to be pongee
material.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk to this other fellow?
Mr. ANDREWS. Well, he talked Spanish, and all I told him was poco poco.
That was it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you speak Spanish?
Mr. ANDREWS. I can understand a little. I can if you speak it. I can
read it. That's about all.
Mr. LIEBELER [handing picture to witness]. I show you a picture which
has been marked "Frank Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C," and ask you if that
is the same man that was in your office and the same man you say was
passing out literature in the street.
Mr. ANDREWS. It appears to be.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you recognize this Mexican again if you saw him?
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember telling the FBI that you wouldn't be able
to recognize him again if you saw him?
Mr. ANDREWS. Probably did. Been a long time. There's three people I am
going to find: One of them is the real guy that killed the President;
the Mexican; and Clay Bertrand.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you mean to suggest by that statement that you have
considerable doubt in your mind that Oswald killed the President?
Mr. ANDREWS. I know good and well he did not. With that weapon, he
couldn't have been capable of making three controlled shots in that
short time.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are basing your opinion on reports that you have
received over news media as to how many shots were fired in what period
of time; is that correct?
Mr. ANDREWS. I am basing my opinion on five years as an ordnanceman
in the Navy. You can lean into those things, and with throwing the
bolts--if I couldn't do it myself, 8 hours a day, doing this for a
living, constantly on the range, I know this civilian couldn't do it.
He might have been a sharp marksman at one time, but if you don't lean
into that rifle and don't squeeze and control consistently, your brain
can tell you how to do it, but you don't have the capability.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have used a pronoun in this last series of
statements, the pronoun "it." You are making certain assumptions as to
what actually happened, or you have a certain notion in your mind as to
what happened based on material you read in the newspaper?
Mr. ANDREWS. It doesn't make any difference. What you have to do is
lean into a weapon, and, to fire three shots controlled with accuracy,
this boy couldn't do it. Forget the President.
Mr. LIEBELER. You base that judgment on the fact that, in your own
experience, it is difficult to do that sort of thing?
Mr. ANDREWS. You have to stay with it. You just don't pick up a rifle
or a pistol or whatever weapon you are using and stay proficient with
it. You have to know what you are doing. You have to be a conniver.
This boy could have connived the deal, but I think he is a patsy.
Somebody else pulled the trigger.
Mr. LIEBELER. However, as we have indicated, it is your opinion. You
don't have any evidence other than what you have already told us
about your surmise and opinions about the rifle on which to base that
statement; is that correct? If you do, I want to know what it is.
Mr. ANDREWS. If I did, I would give it to you. It's just taking the
5 years and thinking about it a bit. I have fired as much as 40,000
rounds of ammo a day for 7 days a week. You get pretty good with it as
long as you keep firing. Then I have gone back after 2 weeks. I used to
be able to take a shotgun, go on a skeet, and pop 100 out of 100. After
2 weeks, I could only pop 60 of them. I would have to start shooting
again, same way with the rifle and machineguns. Every other person I
knew, same thing happened to them. You just have to stay at it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you see Oswald at any time subsequent to that
time you saw him in the street handing out literature?
Mr. ANDREWS. I have never seen him since.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us what month that was, approximately?
Mr. ANDREWS. Summertime. Before July. I think the last time would be
around--the last could have been, I guess, around the 10th of July.
Mr. LIEBELER. Around the 10th of July?
Mr. ANDREWS. I don't believe it was after that. It could have been
before, but not after.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you mentioned this Mexican that accompanied Oswald
to your office. Have you seen him at any time subsequent to the last
time Oswald came into your office?
Mr. ANDREWS. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us approximately how long a period of time
elapsed from the last time Oswald came into your office to the last
time you saw him in the street handing out literature?
Mr. ANDREWS. I would say about 6 weeks, just guessing.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you have never seen the Mexican at any other time
since then?
Mr. ANDREWS. No. He just couldn't have disappeared because the Mexican
community here is pretty small. You can squeeze it pretty good, the
Latin community. He is not known around here.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you made an attempt to find him since the
assassination?
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you haven't had any success?
Mr. ANDREWS. No. Not too many places they can go not being noticed.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anybody else with Oswald that day you saw him
handing out literature?
Mr. ANDREWS. Oh, people standing there with him. Whether they were with
him or not, I wouldn't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did it appear that there was anybody else helping him
hand out literature?
Mr. ANDREWS. There was one person, but they had no literature. They
weren't giving anything out. Let me see that picture of that little
bitty guy, that weasel before.
Mr. LIEBELER. [handing picture to witness]. This is Bringuier Exhibit
No. 1.
Mr. ANDREWS. No; he resembled this boy, but it is not him. It is a pale
face instead of a Latin.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you talked to Oswald on the street that day, did he
give you any idea who was paying him to hand this stuff out?