The testimony of Aubrey Lee Lewis was taken at 11:30 a.m., on July 14,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr.,
assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Dean Robert G. Story,
special counsel to the attorney general of Texas and Sam Kelley,
assistant attorney general of Texas, were present.
Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Aubrey Lee Lewis. Mr. Lewis,
my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the
general counsel of the President's Commission. Under the provisions
of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the joint
resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by
the President's Commission in conformance with that Executive order
and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn
deposition from you. I state to you now that the general nature of
the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon
the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy and the
subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you,
Mr. Lewis, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts
you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you
may know about the general inquiry. Now I understand, Mr. Lewis, that
you appeared here today by virtue of a letter requesting you to do so,
addressed to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of
the President's Commission.
Mr. LEWIS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you receive that?
Mr. LEWIS. It was Friday.
Mr. HUBERT. Friday, the 10th, is that correct?
Mr. LEWIS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand, please, and take the oath? Do you solemnly
swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. LEWIS. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your name?
Mr. LEWIS. Aubrey Lee Lewis.
Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live?
Mr. LEWIS. 2321 Tolosa Drive.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?
Mr. LEWIS. I am an assistant branch manager.
Mr. HUBERT. Of what?
Mr. LEWIS. Western Union Telegraph Co.
Mr. HUBERT. Where?
Mr. LEWIS. 7620 Lemmon Avenue.
Mr. HUBERT. In what city?
Mr. LEWIS. Dallas, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so occupied?
Mr. LEWIS. Five years.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your occupation prior to that time?
Mr. LEWIS. U.S. Navy.
Mr. HUBERT. And prior to that?
Mr. LEWIS. High school.
Mr. HUBERT. How old are you?
Mr. LEWIS. Twenty-six.
Mr. HUBERT. So that all of your adult life you have been employed by
the Western Union?
Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you held the same position all that time?
Mr. LEWIS. No; I have held the same position about the last year and a
half.
Mr. HUBERT. What are your general duties in that capacity?
Mr. LEWIS. I am an operator to receive and send telegrams, and advise
the other personnel, instruct the new personnel about the daily routine
of the office.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that branch number known by a particular designation or
number?
Mr. LEWIS. It is B-2 branch office.
Mr. HUBERT. On Lemmon?
Mr. LEWIS. Yes; 7620 Lemmon Avenue.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Mr. C. A. Hamblen?
Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What is his first name?
Mr. LEWIS. Curtis.
Mr. HUBERT. Is he employed by the Western Union?
Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Where?
Mr. LEWIS. At 2034 Main, Dallas, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. That is the downtown office?
Mr. LEWIS. That is the main branch; yes, sir; main office.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you known him?
Mr. LEWIS. I have known him the better part of 5 years. About 4-1/2.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever worked with him?
Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. When?
Mr. LEWIS. You mean what years, or when?
Mr. HUBERT. I have specifically in mind sometime prior to November 26.
Mr. LEWIS. I worked under him nearly 3 years.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was that?
Mr. LEWIS. That was at the main office, 2034 Main. He is the early
night manager.
Mr. HUBERT. At the Main Street branch?
Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. So that you worked under him at the Main Street branch
until about 2 years ago?
Mr. LEWIS. About a year and a half ago.
Mr. HUBERT. Now were you working with him either at the Main Street
branch or at the other branch that you mentioned sometime during the
fall of 1963?
Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was that? Which one?
Mr. LEWIS. That was at the Main Street; 2034 Main.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you come to be working there?
Mr. LEWIS. I was pulled in from my job because they were short
downtown. People were on vacation.
Mr. HUBERT. How long a period did you work with Mr. Hamblen then at the
Main branch?
Mr. LEWIS. I was down 2 weeks altogether, and he was out the first
week. I relieved him the first week, and then I relieved this other
fellow the second week, and I worked under him the second week I was
there.
Mr. HUBERT. So that you worked under Mr. Hamblen at the Main branch
during the early night shift for 1 week?
Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Could you place that week?
Mr. LEWIS. It was in October, I believe. I am not for sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Would that be a matter of record on this part?
Mr. LEWIS. It is in the paper there. I don't know exactly what date it
was.
Mr. HUBERT. I now show you a photostatic copy of a document dated
Dallas, Tex., December 4, 1963, addressed to Mr. Wilcox, apparently
signed by Aubrey Lee Lewis, which has heretofore been identified as
follows: "Exhibit No. 3006 in the deposition of Laurance R. Wilcox at
Dallas, Tex., March 31, 1964, WJL." I have shown you this photostatic
copy of this document which I have just described, and I now ask you if
that is a photostat of your signature?
Mr. LEWIS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Is this document addressed to Mr. Wilcox and identified as
I have stated a moment ago, a correct statement of facts, so far as you
know?
Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now I wish you would give us further details concerning the
incident to which reference is made in this Exhibit No. 3006, Wilcox'
deposition, with reference to Hamblen's difficulty with a man named
Oswald?
Mr. LEWIS. Well, as I said, I was working the early night money order
counter, and this party approached me and said he had a money order,
and I asked him for his identification, which he didn't have any at
that time. And I asked him could he obtain some, and he said he guessed
he could if he had to. He left and came back with some identification.
I believe it was a little Navy ID release card. And I paid him on that.
He gave me quite a bit of trouble.
Mr. HUBERT. Of what nature?
Mr. LEWIS. Oh, he was cursing and telling how lousy everything was.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Mr. Hamblen have any part in that matter?
Mr. LEWIS. I beg your pardon?
Mr. HUBERT. Did Mr. Hamblen have any part in this matter?
Mr. LEWIS. Well, yes. When we have difficulty with anybody, he comes up
and helps us.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he come up on this occasion?
Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he speak to this individual?
Mr. LEWIS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us what conversation or statements passed
between Mr. Hamblen and the individual?
Mr. LEWIS. It was just about the identification, about that you have to
have it before you can get your money.
Mr. HUBERT. Prior to the time when the man went off to get the
identification?
Mr. LEWIS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How long was Mr. Hamblen with this man?
Mr. LEWIS. I couldn't say for sure. I don't really know.
Mr. HUBERT. How long were you with him on the first occasion?
Mr. LEWIS. The first occasion I would say about 4 to 5 minutes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now how long after having left to get the identification
did he come back with his identification you referred to?
Mr. LEWIS. It wasn't long. I would say about 15 to 30 minutes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Mr. Hamblen see him then?
Mr. LEWIS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that?
Mr. LEWIS. Because he came back up to the counter.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Hamblen did?
Mr. LEWIS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Why did he do that? Did you ask him to?
Mr. LEWIS. He saw him come in, and he came back and helped me out with
him.
Mr. HUBERT. Was this person disagreeable on the second occasion?
Mr. LEWIS. He was somewhat disagreeable--still in a nasty mood--you
might say.
Mr. HUBERT. When you say nasty mood, could you give us an example of
what physically happened that you characterize as nasty?
Mr. LEWIS. Well, cursing and telling us how lousy we are, and that
he had been paid money orders before and never had to have any
identification. And just generally what everybody else tells us. It is
nothing new. We hear it quite often.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember this person's name?
Mr. LEWIS. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Mr. Hamblen tell you that he had had difficulty with
this man prior to this occasion?
Mr. LEWIS. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you that he had ever cashed any money orders
for this person prior to this occasion?
Mr. LEWIS. I don't believe so, no, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall any address to the payee?
Mr. LEWIS. The YMCA is the only address that he gave me.
Mr. HUBERT. Was the telegram money order addressed to the YMCA?
Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir; as far as I can remember, it was.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, as I understand it, it must have come in with
the telegram?
Mr. LEWIS. He came in with the check.
Mr. HUBERT. The check?
Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Your recollection is, the check was addressed to the YMCA,
to an individual at the Y?
Mr. LEWIS. We have a rubber stamp at each branch office which is
stamped at the top of their checks where it was issued, and as I
recall, it was issued at the Cotton Exchange office.
Mr. HUBERT. At the Cotton Exchange office?
Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Of Dallas, Tex.?
Mr. LEWIS. Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. So that there was someone in Dallas sending a money order
from the Cotton Exchange office?
Mr. LEWIS. No, sir. That is where it was addressed, to the Cotton
Exchange. That is where the money order was sent to. I have no idea
where it was sent from.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, what is this part then about, YMCA?
Mr. LEWIS. We have an "Office Issued" and there is a rubber stamp on
the check where it was issued at, but I have no idea or know where it
was coming from. That was where the check was written up at, at the
Cotton Exchange.
Mr. HUBERT. And it was addressed to the payee?
Mr. LEWIS. To the payee at the YMCA.
Mr. HUBERT. How are those checks handled? For instance, when it was
issued by the Cotton Exchange branch, would it have been mailed or
delivered?
Mr. LEWIS. Delivered by boy.
Mr. HUBERT. Delivered by boy?
Mr. LEWIS. To the clerk.
Mr. HUBERT. To the addressee?
Mr. LEWIS. To the clerk at the YMCA. The clerk signs for it and keeps
them there in a little box they have there.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of your own knowledge whether this was done in
this case? That is to say, that the clerk receipted for it at the YMCA?
Mr. LEWIS. So far as I know, that is how it was handled.
Mr. HUBERT. I mean if you know that absolutely, or are you just
assuming that is the way?
Mr. LEWIS. I am just assuming that is the way it was handled.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't have any particular knowledge on this occasion?
Mr. LEWIS. No; I don't.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you give us a description of this individual?
Mr. LEWIS. The only thing I could remember was that he was of a
feminine, very slender build fellow.
Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean?
Mr. LEWIS. Well, he talked funny and peculiar.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have an accent?
Mr. LEWIS. No accent. Just the way a person acts.
Mr. HUBERT. What was his mannerism?
Mr. LEWIS. Mannerism was feminine.
Mr. HUBERT. In what way?
Mr. LEWIS. Well, I don't know how to describe it.
Mr. HUBERT. Just an overall impression?
Mr. LEWIS. Just an overall impression, of the person. As far as
remembering his weight and height and everything like that, I wouldn't.
I have no idea.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he dark complexioned?
Mr. LEWIS. Dark complexioned.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the color of his eyes?
Mr. LEWIS. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Had dark hair?
Mr. LEWIS. That is the only thing I remember.
Mr. HUBERT. How was he dressed?
Mr. LEWIS. I don't recall that either.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he alone?
Mr. LEWIS. No, sir. There was a companion with him.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you know that the person with him was with him? In
fact was a companion?
Mr. LEWIS. They were talking. They came together and left together both
times.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand you to say that the companion of the payee
that we have been talking about was of a Latin American or Spanish type?
Mr. LEWIS. Yes; that I do recall.
Mr. HUBERT. By that, you mean what?
Mr. LEWIS. Dark complexioned, and just looked of Spanish descent.
Mr. HUBERT. Latin American?
Mr. LEWIS. Latin American descent.
Mr. HUBERT. They were speaking English?
Mr. LEWIS. Normal speech in English.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice any Spanish accent?
Mr. LEWIS. The fellow had a Spanish accent.
Mr. HUBERT. He was accompanied by the boy with a Spanish accent?
Mr. LEWIS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall anything else that happened?
Mr. LEWIS. No, sir; I wasn't paying much attention to him.
Mr. HUBERT. I don't mean the exact conversation, but just the general
situation.
Mr. LEWIS. No; I wouldn't know.
Mr. HUBERT. How would you describe the person of Spanish accent insofar
as build and size and weight?
Mr. LEWIS. He was of short and slender build.
Mr. HUBERT. Shorter than the payee?
Mr. LEWIS. About the same.
Mr. HUBERT. About the same weight?
Mr. LEWIS. Approximately, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember how he was dressed?
Mr. LEWIS. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall how much the money order was for?
Mr. LEWIS. No; it was for a small amount. I don't recall the exact
amount.
Mr. HUBERT. You had never had any other business with this payee before?
Mr. LEWIS. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't have any afterward?
Mr. LEWIS. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And Hamblen did not mention to you that he had had any
before?
Mr. LEWIS. No, sir. The first time I knew about that was when we went
into our district manager's office.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I show you a picture which I have marked for
identification on the back thereof on the lower right-hand corner the
following words: "Dallas, Tex., July 14, 1964, Exhibit No. 1 of Aubrey
L. Lewis." I ask you if this picture resembles the person that you have
been testifying about as the payee on the occasion you have mentioned?
Mr. LEWIS. I couldn't say if it resembled him.
Mr. HUBERT. You have no recollection whether it looks like him at all?
Mr. LEWIS. I sure don't.
Mr. HUBERT. You said he had dark hair?
Mr. LEWIS. That is true. He had dark hair, but as far as any features,
I don't remember the eyes or nose or anything. I don't recall them.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't recall, as I understand from your statement, that
the man's name was Oswald?
Mr. LEWIS. No, sir; I do not recall that.
Mr. HUBERT. You are familiar with the fact that Mr. Hamblen says he was
Oswald?
Mr. LEWIS. Yes; I am familiar with that.
Mr. HUBERT. But you don't remember?
Mr. LEWIS. I don't remember.
Mr. HUBERT. You cannot tell us now whether or not the picture shown in
Exhibit No. 1, which in fact is a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald, was the
man you have been testifying about as the payee of that money order?
Mr. LEWIS. I couldn't say for sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you say for sure either way that it was or it was not?
Mr. LEWIS. No; I can't be sure.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it could be and it could not be?
Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir; it could be and it couldn't be. I have no way of
knowing.
Mr. HUBERT. You will not say it was not that man?
Mr. LEWIS. I wouldn't say it wasn't, but I wouldn't say it was, because
it could be. I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall making any comments to Mr. Hamblen on the
occasion that you have been testifying about, and after this payee
had left, that you would like to punch the heads of people of this
character?
Mr. LEWIS. Yes; I made that statement.
Mr. HUBERT. You made that statement to Mr. Hamblen?
Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Why was that?
Mr. LEWIS. Well, he is just a person that kind of gives you a bad time.
You can do without that kind. You don't have time to fool with them.
Mr. HUBERT. Now when did it first come to your attention that it
was possible that the man that had dealings with you, as you have
testified, might be Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. LEWIS. Mr. Hamblen, after I had gone back on my job quite sometime,
called me at home one night and asked me did I recall when I had paid
that party, and I told him I recalled it.
And he asked me did I recognize him as being Oswald, and I said, "No,
I have never put it together." I just never did. And I still can't
picture the two. I had forgotten all about it.
Mr. HUBERT. When was it that Hamblen approached you, as you say he did,
and asked you about this?
Mr. LEWIS. I don't recall the date, but it was a couple of weeks after
the assassination, after he was killed.
Mr. HUBERT. You say then it was about the first week in December?
Mr. LEWIS. I would say somewhere along in there. I am not for sure, but
it was a short time span.
Mr. HUBERT. Would it thus have been about 2 months after you had had
this episode, that this episode occurred between you and this man?
Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Then your memory did not associate the payee with Lee
Harvey Oswald?
Mr. LEWIS. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. At that time had you been shown or looked at pictures of
Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. LEWIS. I had seen him on TV.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you at any time prior to today been shown a picture of
Lee Harvey Oswald as I have shown it to you?
Mr. LEWIS. I don't recall if Mr. Wilcox had one or not. I am not sure.
But I saw it in the newspapers and on TV, and I don't recall seeing one
that day. I could have. He possibly had one.
Mr. HUBERT. What I am talking about is the day that inquiry was focused
upon the possibility of this payee as Lee Harvey Oswald. Were you then
shown a picture and asked if it was that man as I have done today?
Mr. LEWIS. I believe I was. I am not for sure, but I believe Mr. Wilcox
had one at the time.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you have described the identification card which
this payee ultimately produced and which you ultimately recognized?
Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I believe you said it was a Navy ID card?
Mr. LEWIS. It was a little release card you get when you get out of the
service.
Mr. HUBERT. Did it have a picture on it?
Mr. LEWIS. No, sir. It just had his name and some of them have serial
numbers and some of them don't.
Mr. HUBERT. So the identification established then was that the person
who held the telegram also held a card addressed to the payee of the
telegram?
Mr. LEWIS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a library card as well?
Mr. LEWIS. I believe it was a library card also.
Mr. HUBERT. That didn't have any picture?
Mr. LEWIS. That didn't have a picture; no. This ID that he had wasn't
very good at all, as far as we considered identification to pay money
orders.
Mr. HUBERT. Why not?
Mr. LEWIS. We like to have pictures on identification and some legal
papers, you might say; insurance and driver's license.
Mr. HUBERT. Driver's license?
Mr. LEWIS. Driver's license; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask for that?
Mr. LEWIS. I asked for it, and he didn't have any.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say he didn't drive?
Mr. LEWIS. He didn't make comment. He said he didn't have any license.
Mr. HUBERT. You think it was about a half hour after the first episode
that he returned with the other identification?
Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Was the Latin American looking person with him on both
occasions?
Mr. LEWIS. Both occasions; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, have you anything to add?
Mr. LEWIS. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you made reference to the fact that the check from
the Western Union, which was the subject of this whole episode, had
been purchased by someone and payable to the payee involved at the
Cotton Exchange branch?
Mr. LEWIS. Cotton Exchange branch.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that in Dallas?
Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir; it is in the Cotton Exchange Building. I think it
is on North Ervay.[F]
Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, I ask you whether you concur with me that
since I have met you today, which was the first time we ever met, there
has been no conversation between us other than that which has been
covered in the deposition in one way or another, is that correct?
Mr. LEWIS. That's correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much, sir.
Mr. LEWIS. Thank you, sir.
[F] 608 North St. Paul, one block from Ervay and YMCA.