Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you had previously testified about this
and have told the Commission that you were not in the store at that
time. We want these two ladies to have an opportunity to see you and
have you see them, to see if your recollection can be refreshed or if
they were mistaken. Is that agreeable with you, Marina?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; I can remember--I'm sure, I never forget and the baby
is just 2 weeks. I would like to know under what circumstances these
two ladies saw me at that particular time?
Mr. McKENZIE. And furthermore, where the store is located?
Mr. LIEBELER. Let the record show that Mrs. Whitworth and Mrs. Hunter
have come into the room [reporter's note: 11:10 a.m.], and let the
record further show that they have both previously testified that
sometime in early November 1963, they saw Marina and the two children
and Lee Oswald in a furniture store located on East Irving Boulevard in
Irving, Tex.
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember the name of the street.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I will ask Mrs. Whitworth, who was the operator
of that store, the address of the store and to describe the store
generally for Marina and its name.
Mrs. WHITWORTH. The store was known as the Furniture Mart. The name
was clearly on it, and it was located at 149 East Irving Boulevard.
That's at the corner of Jefferson and Irving Boulevard on the north
side of the street and in the same block with the bank. In fact, the
back of it was up to the Bank & Trust there and it looked like at one
time it might have been a service station and we had changed it into a
furniture store, and they would have seen more used furniture in it,
because we had new and used furniture. This clear enough?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember the names of the streets--that wouldn't
be material to me. I wouldn't remember it.
Mr. LIEBELER. All right.
Mr. GREGORY. Would you like for me to give the complete answer of this
lady to her?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mrs. WHITWORTH. That would be the main thoroughfare in Irving.
Mr. GREGORY. That's the street across from the bank?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; it would be in the same block with the Irving Bank
& Trust.
Mrs. OSWALD. The only thing I am interested in is whether Mrs.
Whitworth actually knows me or not, whether this lady actually saw me
or knows me or not. That's what I am interested in.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let us ask Mrs. Whitworth to describe briefly the
circumstances under which you say these people came in the store.
Mr. McKENZIE. And the time of the day, establish the time of the day
and the complete circumstances.
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, it would be more from the middle of the day
until, you see, say 3 o'clock in the afternoon or maybe 4 o'clock in
the afternoon. When they came in, and drove up to the front, and Mr.
Oswald came in the store first.
He came in and asked, you know, about this part of the gun and then
he went back to the car, and after asking me about, you know, it--I
said I didn't have the part--I didn't have the gun part that he
wanted, he said, "You have furniture in here?" And I said, "Yes." He
said, "I am going to be needing some," and he went back to the car
and took whatever he had back to the car, and then he came back in
and she followed him and she had the baby in her arms. It was a tiny
baby--he told me it was 2 weeks old, and this little girl [indicating
June Oswald] was walking in front of Mrs. Oswald and she was whining
a little bit and Mrs. Oswald was, you know, carrying the baby and we
come back in and went to the extreme back of the store, and I showed
them some bedroom suites and had to pull these beds out and Mrs. Oswald
stood there and she never said anything, but Mr. Oswald and I talked,
you know, about the furniture, and then we talked about the babies,
but she turned and left before he did, you know, because I walked back
up to the front of the store with him, because she was already at the
front of the store by the time we turned and went up there, and it was
a cool day and it was cool enough that you would have on a little wrap
and this little girl, as well as I remember, had on some kind of a
short sweater or coat, and Mrs. Oswald had on a short coat too, and she
had her hair tied back.
She doesn't look like she does today, because her face was fuller then
and it might have been because she just had this baby then and still
hadn't gone back like she was. This baby was just a tiny thing. I
didn't see it, it was wrapped up in some kind of a blanket, but this
little girl--it definitely was her. It seemed like her hair was a
little darker but she did have on some kind of a cap.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you understand this?
*Mrs. OSWALD. I wonder if somebody was in car or not?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. That, I wouldn't testify that there was anybody in
the car with you, because I observed what happened in the store, you
know. I mean, you impressed me in the store and not out of the store.
I didn't notice, because too many people drove up. I thought your car
was a two-tone car, either a Ford or a Plymouth--now--I don't know. I
thought it was blue and white--I wouldn't, you know, swear to that. I
mean, too many cars drove up out in front like that, but it was what
happened on the inside of the store that I was more impressed with
and remembered, and your actions and his, because she acted like she
wasn't interested in what he said because she didn't exchange words or
anything, but I did talk to him, and I know it was him and I know she
was in there.
She may not remember it, but if I was to see her today and seeing her
that day and I was to meet her on the street, it would be hard for me
to identify her. You know, she still has the features, but her face was
round and she had her hair pulled back [indicating].
Mr. GREGORY. You mean in a pony tail?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. In a pony tail.
*Mrs. OSWALD. No; it wasn't that.
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, there was something tied around it--you had
something tied around it, I mean, slicked back from her face.
*Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't wear this.
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I called it a pony tail, but it was kind of pulled back
to the back.
*Mrs. OSWALD. I had two pigtails.
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, she might have--it was tied back and whipped back
from her face. Her face was round then and she was pretty then--I'd say
she was pretty.
*Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you.
Mrs. WHITWORTH. The little girl--I tried to talk to her and attract her
attention, but she was whining all the time she was in there and she
was trying to attend to this little girl and had this baby in her arms
and the little girl walked out in front of her, you know, when they
left the store.
*Mrs. OSWALD. Just one time I was in the store? I do not remember that
I was ever in a furniture store. That does not make a difference for
me. I recall the time when I was in a store with Mrs. Ruth Paine.
Mr. GREGORY. Which store was it?
Mrs. OSWALD. In that store they were selling baby things and towels and
I was looking for something for a child.
Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I didn't sell anything like that--mine was all
furniture.
*Mrs. OSWALD. There was just one store like that.
Mrs. WHITWORTH. But we went to the extreme back of the store and, as
well as I remember, I had a used reddish maple bookcase headboard bed,
you know, I was showing you.
Mrs. OSWALD. I was never in any furniture store.
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, she didn't act like she was, even that day, you
know, she walked off.
*Mrs. OSWALD. You know, not because I want to say you are wrong, but
I can't remember I was in a furniture store, especially when I talked
with somebody.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Marina, you said you do remember one time that you
were in a store with Mrs. Paine and with Lee and with the children. Do
you remember how long you were in the store that time?
*Mrs. OSWALD. About 30 minutes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And how long, Mrs. Whitworth, was she in the store this
time that you are talking about?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I would say from 30 to 40 minutes.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't remember Marina seeing any furniture in the
store at that time?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No; this was a cafe on that side--on the left side and
baby clothes on the right side, and a radio and that's all.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what you went to that store for?
*Mrs. OSWALD. To buy Junie pants--rubber pants.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you buy some clothes for June; do you remember ever
seeing these ladies before, Marina?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Just this one [indicating Mrs. Hunter]. Perhaps, now, I
saw her, because there is a woman of that particular type, a lady like
this out in Richardson--I may have seen a lady like this in Richardson.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you do remember seeing a woman that looked something
like Mrs. Hunter, here, Mrs. Hunter being the woman in the blue dress?
*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't think that I saw her, but I saw a woman or women
like her--not one, but many of that type.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mrs. Hunter, as you sit here and you look at these
children and you look at Marina, are you sure in your own mind that
these were the people who were in the store that day?
Mrs. HUNTER. I have seen Marina several times before the baby
came--several times. She said she saw me--do you remember talking to a
lady about getting help for you before your baby came?
Mrs. OSWALD. For housework?
Mrs. HUNTER. No; she was talking about the welfare of clothes for the
baby before the baby came, but I don't know who she was.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, wait just a minute, Mrs. Hunter, you say you talked
to Marina about this?
Mrs. HUNTER. She was with another woman and this other woman didn't
come around, and I couldn't understand too much of what she said, and
she couldn't understand too much of what I said, and I says, "If you
need help with this baby, we can get you help at Parkland Hospital." Do
you remember that?
Mr. LIEBELER. Just a minute, would you describe the other woman?
Mrs. HUNTER. Now, the other woman don't mean a thing to me. All I
know, she was with this other woman, but I live on Second Street and
it was down below me, four or five different streets and this woman,
I believe, was going to see someone about fixing a tire or changing a
tire. Now, I couldn't tell you what the other woman had on because it
was just curiosity to me why--that her couldn't speak like we could and
was in this condition and I kept asking her where her husband was and
I never did make her understand me and I finally asked her if they had
separated [indicating hand signals]--and I did that way--with her, and
she made me understand he was staying over in town, but then, I didn't
know who she was or nothing about her.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where did all this happen?
Mrs. HUNTER. Let me see, it was in a filling station--how come me at
the station--I don't know whether that's the day that we looked at a
car that this man had for sale at the station or not.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you think this happened, Mrs. Hunter?
Mrs. HUNTER. It was on the corner of Sixth and Hastings Street--I
know where the station was--I couldn't even tell you the name of the
station, because we were looking at a car there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, what were the circumstances under which you were in
this station, Mrs. Hunter?
Mrs. HUNTER. Now, I have never been there but about twice, but at this
particular time, last July until right after Christmas, we were looking
just for a used pickup or a used car for my husband to haul his tools
in. We have a used car at this time there was a car for sale there.
*Mrs. OSWALD. After Christmas?
Mrs. HUNTER. What?
*Mrs. OSWALD. After Christmas?
Mrs. HUNTER. No; I said we were looking for used cars, so that's bound
to have been my purpose there because we do not trade with that man.
Do you know a driveway and a filling station and a washateria on Sixth
Street?
Mrs. OSWALD. No; I don't remember Irving.
Mrs. HUNTER. This was before--I would say it was in September or
October. It was before--just a little while, I know, before your baby
came, because I won't tell you the remark I made, but anyhow, I know it
was pretty close--almost due time--you could tell from the way you were
carrying the baby, it was almost time for the baby.
*Mrs. OSWALD. I can't remember her [indicating Mrs. Whitworth].
Mr. LIEBELER. Didn't you see this other woman at all, Mrs. Hunter?
Mrs. HUNTER. No; she got out and had her back to me and if I'm not
badly mistaken the woman had on a dark dress, but what the woman looked
like, it wasn't even dawning on me, because I wasn't even interested.
The only thing I seen that she was very uncomfortable and what I
thought she was saying was that she was going to have to have help when
the baby comes.
Mr. McKENZIE. Excuse me, but I would like to ask her a question; may I?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mrs. Hunter, what is your full name, please?
Mrs. HUNTER. Gertrude Hunter.
Mr. McKENZIE. What is your husband's name?
Mrs. HUNTER. John T. Hunter.
Mr. McKENZIE. Do you work with Mrs. Whitworth there in the store?
Mrs. HUNTER. No; just visiting her.
Mr. McKENZIE. You were not in the store on this particular occasion
that Mrs. Whitworth has described; is that correct?
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes; I was there.
Mr. McKENZIE. You were there?
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.
Mr. McKENZIE. And what were you doing in the store that morning or that
day?
Mrs. HUNTER. We go to football games together and we were down
discussing whether we was going to have, what do you call it, caravan
cars or charter a bus, and it was after 2 o'clock in the afternoon,
because I never did leave the house only after 2. My daughter works at
Commercial Title and she calls me before she goes back off of her lunch
hour at 2 o'clock.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, this was after 2 o'clock and prior to the football
weekend; is that correct?
Mrs. HUNTER. On Wednesday or Thursday--I won't say just which day.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, on that occasion when you were in the store with
Mrs. Whitworth at the Furniture Mart, did Mrs. Oswald or her husband
buy any clothes or anything of the sort?
Mrs. HUNTER. Well, she went to talking about the cafe. It used to be
a bus station and it has the counter and the chairs for the cafe. The
only thing she had there was the candy, and there was some used clothes
and a church or welfare or something had had them there, they had their
used clothes there, and there were some shoes there. Now, she might
have thought she was in a cafe or a drygoods store.
*Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. McKENZIE. At that time I'm asking you about, did either Mrs. Oswald
or her husband buy any clothes; do you recall?
Mrs. HUNTER. No; they didn't buy anything.
Mr. LIEBELER. You had seen Mrs. Oswald before; is that correct?
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes; but I didn't know who she was until now--I do now--I
would know her eyes.
Mr. McKENZIE. Of course, you have seen many pictures of her since then.
Mrs. HUNTER. No; I'll be honest with you, I have only seen her once
on television and that was in Washington, and day before yesterday I
wanted to be sure that this woman had the long hair, and the way it
looked there. Now, I'm honest with him about that. I didn't watch the
run of it on television.
Mr. McKENZIE. By "him" you are referring to Mr. Liebeler here?
Mrs. HUNTER. Well, I don't know what his name is.
Mr. LIEBELER. That's right.
Mr. McKENZIE. Now, on this occasion when she was in the store with the
two children and her husband, that Mrs. Whitworth has described, did
you notice the automobile that they came in?
Mrs. HUNTER. I sure did.
Mr. McKENZIE. And was it in the same automobile you had seen her in
before at the filling station?
Mrs. HUNTER. No.
*Mrs. OSWALD. Not the same? Not the same?
Mr. McKENZIE. Did you go outside and see the automobile?
Mrs. HUNTER. I was standing in the side door looking up and down the
street while she had went with them to the back. Now, I didn't hear her
say nothing and I don't know whether she said something to the little
girl, or what she said, but she did go "shhh." She could have said
"shhh" or something, but I remember her making some kind of a remark to
the little girl.
Mr. McKENZIE. To quiet the little girl?
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.
Mr. McKENZIE. Now, at that time did you notice the automobile in front?
Mrs. HUNTER. Can I tell him what I told you?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mrs. HUNTER. Well, what I meant--I didn't want to do something that I
shouldn't. I was looking for some friends of mine from Houston that
drove a two-tone blue and white Ford--a 1957--I think it was, and when
this car drove up, I left a note on my mailbox when I left the house
and I told them if they come while I was gone to come down to this
place, because I would be there, or left her telephone number on the
note too, and when they drove up----
Mr. LIEBELER. Who is "they" now?
Mrs. HUNTER. Mr. and Mrs. Dominik from Houston, and when this car drove
up, I thought it was them and I just said, "Well, my company has come,"
and that was it and when I seen he was getting out of the car I just
seen then that it wasn't, and I just sat back down in the platform
rocker there where I was sitting. It was a partition in the front part
of the store and I was sitting right here in platform rocker and there
was some tables and chairs over here and I had opened this side door.
She had it shut and I had opened it.
Mr. McKENZIE. Did your friends from Houston come while they were there?
Mrs. HUNTER. No; they never did come up until later on, and he come up
in a truck--several weeks later.
Mr. McKENZIE. Was there anybody else in the automobile that drove up
that they got out of?
Mrs. HUNTER. No; just her and him and the two children. Now, I wasn't
up close to the car. I was standing in the door and the car was parked
over here something like this, and somebody could have been down in the
floorboard of the car--I wouldn't say they wasn't.
Mr. McKENZIE. Did you see who was driving the automobile?
Mrs. HUNTER. He got under the steering wheel.
*Mrs. OSWALD. Lee?
Mr. LIEBELER. And you saw him drive the car?
Mrs. HUNTER. I seen him at the steering wheel, under the steering
wheel, and if there was someone else, now, in there, you couldn't see
them.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, in any event, Mr. Oswald got behind the steering
wheel of the car and he drove the car out of the parking lot in front
of the building somewhere; isn't that right?
*Mrs. OSWALD. I have never seen Lee drive the car in my lifetime. Lee
never drove a car with me or the children in it. The only time I saw
him behind the wheel was when Ruth Paine taught him to drive the car,
he was practicing parking the car when Ruth Paine was teaching him to
drive.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that was all in front of Mr. Paine's house; wasn't it?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I'm sure this lady is trying to tell the truth, but
the only possible person who could have driven the car when we were in
that store could have been Mrs. Ruth Paine. She knows all the stores
where we went because we never went there without her.
Mrs. HUNTER. Well, you've got your privileges--you've got your
privileges.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mrs. Hunter, back in September or October when you were
in the Shell filling station and Mrs. Oswald and the little girl here,
June, and another lady happened to be there--that was the occasion when
your husband was looking for the pickup truck--did either Mrs. Oswald
get out of the car or did the other lady get out of the automobile?
Mrs. HUNTER. She was standing beside the car, now, I don't even
remember the baby being there--being in the car.
Mr. LIEBELER. But Mrs. Oswald was standing beside the car?
Mrs. HUNTER. Standing beside the car.
Mr. McKENZIE. And where was the other lady standing?
Mrs. HUNTER. Well, she went either to the restroom or into the filling
station. She wasn't out there--I never did say anything to this woman.