Mrs. HUNTER. Do you remember anyone saying anything to you about a
Salvation Army woman?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Salvation Army woman? I don't know what the Salvation
Army is.
Mrs. HUNTER. This woman was dressed and I told her I would get her, I
would get her a contact. She dresses in these regular white uniforms
most of the time?
Mrs. OSWALD. At the time this lady claims that she saw me, I was not
interested in any help or I did not need any help for the baby from the
standpoint of social help, because we already made all the preparations
for the baby.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Hunter, when you say you saw these people at the
service station, you indicated that the other lady got out of the car,
and even though you didn't see her face, you did see her standing in
the area of the service station; is that right?
Mrs. HUNTER. You see, we had drove up where he had some used cars and
she was there by herself because----
Mr. LIEBELER. When you say "she" you have to say who.
Mrs. HUNTER. Mrs. Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Oswald?
Mrs. HUNTER. And I don't know whether she had got out to go into the
restroom or what, but that's where she seen me instead of in Richardson.
Mr. LIEBELER. My question is, did you see the other lady standing in
the area of the filling station?
Mrs. HUNTER. No; I didn't see the other woman--I really couldn't tell
you what she looked like. I just seen a woman go into the filling
station or into the restroom and I presumed it was who she was with,
because she said--she didn't ask for any help and I couldn't understand
her and she couldn't understand me, you see.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mrs. Hunter, I want to try and find out--you said
you saw this other woman walk into the restroom?
Mrs. HUNTER. I seen a woman--I don't know whether it was the one that
was driving the car she was in or not, because she was standing beside
the car.
Mr. LIEBELER. That's what I'm trying to get to--was this a skinny
woman, a fat woman, a tall or short woman--what did she look like as
you saw her walk into the restroom?
Mrs. HUNTER. The woman, I don't believe she was quite as heavy as I am
and a little bit taller.
Mr. LIEBELER. How tall are you?
Mrs. HUNTER. Five feet two.
Mr. LIEBELER. And she's just a little bit taller than you?
Mrs. HUNTER. I would say this woman was taller than I am.
Mr. LIEBELER. How much?
Mrs. HUNTER. About 5 feet 4.
Mr. LIEBELER. About 5 feet 4 or 5 feet 5--how much do you think she
weighed?
Mrs. HUNTER. I would say about 135.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you see anybody else around the automobile?
Mrs. HUNTER. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of car was it?
Mrs. HUNTER. When we got in our car and left she was still standing
beside the car.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Oswald was?
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of car was it?
Mrs. HUNTER. Well, now, I wouldn't say as to that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was it a convertible, was it a Volkswagen, was it a
station wagon, or was it an ordinary American-type car?
Mrs. HUNTER. It was just a car--but I wouldn't go back to it, because
it didn't dawn on me for sure.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was it a station wagon?
Mrs. HUNTER. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you saw Mrs. Oswald, or who you think was Mrs.
Oswald, in the station there that day before you saw her in the
Furniture Mart; is that right?
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, when you saw her in the Furniture Mart, did you
recognize her?
Mrs. HUNTER. No; it didn't dawn on me--I didn't think a thing in the
world about it.
*Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me, do you remember how I was dressed and was I
pregnant at that time?
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.
*Mrs. OSWALD. And what did I have on?
Mrs. HUNTER. All I know is you had on a jacket.
*Mrs. OSWALD. What color?
Mrs. HUNTER. It was pretty chilly--it was a rose or more of a--it
wasn't red.
*Mrs. OSWALD. Was it blue?
Mrs. HUNTER. It was more of a rose.
*Mrs. OSWALD. I had a rose short one.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you testified before you had seen Mrs. Oswald
several times.
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes; but I didn't know who she was.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about the other times you saw her.
Mrs. HUNTER. I have seen her in Minyards Grocery Store.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is that?
Mr. McKENZIE. [Spelling] M-i-n-y-a-r-d-s.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where is that?
Mrs. HUNTER. On Irving Boulevard.
*Mrs. OSWALD. Grocery store?
Mrs. HUNTER. And this drive-in grocery that I was talking about, if you
remember there--I think I had seen her there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, aside from the gas station and the furniture shop
and the grocery store, did you ever see her any place else?
Mrs. HUNTER. Well, just them things, then at once it dawns on me about
her, but she had ribbons in here hair.
*Mrs. OSWALD. What did I have?
Mrs. HUNTER. She was wearing a pigtail or something--her hair was long,
and I remember one side the string was hanging down longer and that was
at the furniture store.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mean the pigtail?
Mrs. HUNTER. What I can remember about her was the sad expression in
her face--she had a very, very sad expression in her face.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was anybody else with Mrs. Oswald when you saw her in the
grocery store?
Mrs. HUNTER. Well, I didn't pay no attention to who she was with, or
who was with her or nothing about it. I just remember her.
Mr. LIEBELER. You just remember her?
*Mrs. OSWALD. I never wore any ribbons or bows in the hair. Maybe it
was somebody just like me?
Mr. LIEBELER. How is it you remember seeing Mrs. Oswald when you have
no recollection of who she was with or anything like that?
Mrs. HUNTER. Well, her eyes--I would know her on the street by her eyes
if I was to meet her.
*Mrs. OSWALD. Everybody knows my eyes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What about you, Mrs. Whitworth, do you recognize these
people as the people that were in your store that day?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, like I say, she has changed, but I am definitely
sure they were in there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, as you sit here and look at these children who have
been here this morning with Mrs. Oswald, do you recognize them?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. They have grown, and according to their ages and
all--they were there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any doubt about that?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I don't have a doubt in the world but that they were
there. I believe it might have been, if she could remember, probably
about her, of course, the first time after she had this new baby over
here, her husband told me--Lee Harvey Oswald told me that the baby was
2 weeks old and we discussed my grandchildren about the same age and
they were boys. She probably didn't understand our discussion but we
discussed these two children and my two grandchildren.
*Mrs. OSWALD. I remember Lee exchanging conversations with a woman, but
she was a younger woman and they were talking about the baby.
Mrs. WHITWORTH. That was me, probably, but my hair might not be as gray
as it is today and I probably have changed, too, but we discussed the
babies and trading babies, you know, we was just joking, in fact, in
fact I was, anyway, and he said he had hoped to have had a boy when he
had the two girls, and we were hoping for a little granddaughter. We
talked and she walked off. She never would--she never offered to show
us the baby or anything and that's what impressed me more than anything
else. Otherwise, I probably would have never paid any attention to them
being in the store or anything else, but it was that special talking
to him and I was to expedite just about like he was on television one
time. It was cool that day and you had to have on--it was probably the
4th, 5th, or 6th of November.
*Mrs. OSWALD. That sounds just about like Lee.
Mr. LIEBELER. And Marina made that answer when Mrs. Whitworth remarked
that Lee said that he hoped to have a boy and, isn't that right, Marina?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I don't hear this.
Mr. LIEBELER. Because he did want that?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mrs. Whitworth, did he do something unusual--did he
drive up at the store and park the car and get out?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I wouldn't say what he did do, but I saw the car come
up and I think it was his own car, and I think that it was his own car
and I know the door that he came in and I know he went back to the
car and she came in, but she didn't come in the same door as he did.
Whether he drove that car up there, I won't say he didn't and I won't
say he drove it off.
Mr. LIEBELER. You told the FBI that he got into the car and drove it
off going the wrong way down the street, as a matter of fact?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I think, really, that Mrs. Hunter and I had talked
about it, but I'm not going to say that she described the car at all,
but all I want to say is that they were in that store that day, you
know, they've got four of them and I didn't see anyone else in the car
and I didn't think you could do it, and if I did at that time, why it
was maybe because I had talked to Mrs. Hunter previously about that,
because the car did come up there to the gate and they would make a
=U=-turn and go back down the way--back down that one way, and Mrs.
Hunter would notice it, where I wouldn't pay too much attention about
what happened every day.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you don't recall whether he drove the car or not?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. It has been a long time and I don't recall.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell me yesterday or the day before yesterday
that you saw this car drive up in front and the man get out, and did it
appear to you that he was driving the car?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I saw him get out of the car and come to the west door;
absolutely.
Mr. LIEBELER. Which side of the car did he get out from; do you
remember?
Did you see anybody else in the car at all, besides this woman and the
two children?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I didn't pay any attention at that time that they were
in the car, you know, when they first drove up but I didn't know that
they come in the car and they had to get out of a car to come in there;
they wouldn't have walked up.
Mr. McKENZIE. Why do you say they wouldn't have walked up there, Mrs.
Whitworth?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, they would have had to have lived pretty close
and around there and I had never seen them come in there before.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know where they were living?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, not until after all this happened--the
assassination and everything--and they lived pretty close around there.
I had never seen Mrs. Paine walk by there before.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know where they were living?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, I asked them when all this happened and
everything. If they lived out where they did, it would have been too
far from my store to have walked up there.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were under the impression at that time that they were
living together; isn't that right?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, yes; he told me they were living in an apartment,
and I asked him.
*Mrs. OSWALD. Living in an apartment?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; I said, "You are living in an apartment," and
wanting to move out, you know, and he said, "Yes." So, I just assumed
when people come in wanting to buy furniture and they are going to need
some, that they are either in an apartment fixing to move out, or need
some--they are going to need some and they are fixing to move out, but
he wasn't quite ready then--he said.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you specifically ask him or did he specifically tell
you that they were living in an apartment together?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I asked him--yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. He told you that they were living in an apartment together?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have learned since that time that they weren't living
together; isn't that right?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; I believe so.
Mr. McKENZIE. Do you recall in talking to this lady if she had a tooth
missing in front? One or two teeth missing?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I don't recall that--all I noticed--she didn't even
utter a word--I didn't notice it.
Mr. McKENZIE. Do you remember if she had a tooth or two missing?
*Mrs. OSWALD. You know me; you know me?
Mr. McKENZIE. Mrs. Oswald has indicated to Mrs. Hunter that Mrs. Hunter
had said she remembered talking to Marina. Now, what about you, Mrs.
Hunter; do you remember whether she had any teeth missing?
Mrs. HUNTER. Well, I don't remember anything about her teeth because
she would have to almost move her lips, you know, if you didn't pay
close attention, now, that was just a very few seconds with her at
this station--very few. The only thing that I caught was right here
[indicating].
Mr. McKENZIE. Now, don't you think you would notice it if somebody had
a tooth out in front of their mouth?
Mrs. HUNTER. Not necessarily, because I don't pay no attention to
nobody--only their eyes and their feet.
Mr. McKENZIE. I don't have any more questions.
Mr. LIEBELER. Marina, did you at any time go with Lee and the children
when Lee had something with him wrapped in a brown sack that he took
into a store?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mrs. WHITWORTH. It would be about this long [indicating].
Mr. LIEBELER. Indicating about how long?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I would say about 15 or 18 inches.
Mrs. OSWALD. I would have noticed if he had had an object with him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mrs. Whitworth, you testified that when this man
came in the store he did have an object with him about 15 inches long
wrapped in brown paper; isn't that right?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you also testified that this man asked about a part
for a gun; isn't that right?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you know he had some part of the gun wrapped in this
package; didn't he?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you also testified that this man asked about a part
for a gun; isn't that right?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you thought that he had some part of the gun wrapped
in this package; isn't that right?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you understand that, Mrs. Oswald?
Mrs. OSWALD. Even if he did, I would not have understood what he was
saying because I simply did not know the language, but I don't recall
him having any object in his hands such as that referred to here.
Mr. LIEBELER. At any time; is that correct?
Mrs. OSWALD. No; at no time.
Mr. McKENZIE. She is saying he went back to the car and got this part?
Mr. LIEBELER. What were you saying, Mrs. Whitworth?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. He went back to the car and took whatever he had in his
hand--he must have put it in the car, because I never noticed any more;
she came in, you know, but he came back in the store before she did,
because she followed him in and in the store--I don't see why that she
couldn't remember it, it's different, you know, from other stores that
you would go in where you bought soft goods.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you say he brought this package into the store?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. McKenzie, do you wish to inquire as to this package?
Mr. McKENZIE. Mrs. Whitworth, when this man whom you have identified as
Lee Harvey Oswald, whom you know now was Lee Harvey Oswald, from his
pictures in the paper, came into your store, you stated that he had a
package in his hand about 15 to 18 inches long; is that correct?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I saw him.
Mr. McKENZIE. I say, you had seen that and stated that he had such a
package?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I saw him; yes.
Mr. McKENZIE. How was the package wrapped?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Loosely in brown paper and you know, it didn't have any
strings on it, as far as I remember--it was loosely tied.
Mr. McKENZIE. Well, was it a package in a bag?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; he held it with one hand.
Mr. McKENZIE. He held it with one hand?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.
Mr. McKENZIE. Did it look like a piece of pipe or did it look like a
gun stock, or did it look like a piece of wood or what did it look like
that was in the package?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I didn't see it.
Mr. McKENZIE. How big around was the package?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. It wasn't large--I'd say it might have been this big
[indicating].
Mr. McKENZIE. You are making a sign with your hands there, with both
hands----
Mrs. WHITWORTH. What is that--about 2 or 3 inches in diameter?
Mr. McKENZIE. All right.
Mrs. WHITWORTH. And then it was some 15 or 18 inches long.
Mr. McKENZIE. So, the package that he had was 2 or 3 inches in diameter
and approximately 18 inches long; is that right?
Mr. LIEBELER. Fifteen to 18 inches long.
Mrs. WHITWORTH. That's right.
Mr. McKENZIE. What did he say to you when he came into the store?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. He asked me if I had this particular part, some
particular part, but not knowing about guns, I didn't have it. I don't
remember it, you know, what he asked for.
Mr. McKENZIE. To the best of your recollection, if you will, state for
the purpose of the record here exactly what he said to you?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, he asked me if I had this part, whatever it was,
pertaining to a gun.
Mr. McKENZIE. And what part was it?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I don't know--because I don't know anything about guns.
Mr. McKENZIE. Can you state it in his words?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I cannot.
Mr. McKENZIE. You cannot tell us exactly what he said, but this is just
what your recollection is of what he said?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. That's right.
Mr. McKENZIE. And what did he say to you then--give us your best
recollection.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask a question, if I may. Mrs. Whitworth, isn't
it a fact that you told a newspaper reporter that came by your store
shortly after this happened what that part was that he was looking for;
a Miss Campbell or Mrs. Campbell?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I didn't. Mrs. Hunter and I discussed it
afterwards, and I think that she might know more about guns and she
said it was a plunger, but I'm not sure--I might have told them that I
thought it was a plunger, but I don't remember.
Mr. McKENZIE. And you did not tell the reporter what you thought it
was; is that right?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I didn't--I don't believe I ever made the statement
that I knew exactly what it was.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, you told the reporter that you thought it was a
plunger; isn't that a fact?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I believe Mrs. Hunter said that. She talked to the same
reporter--I don't know what it was, because I don't remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did the reporter make a tape recording of the
conversation?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. The reporter made a tape recording of my
conversation--part of it, I would say.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she ever give you a copy of that tape recording?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. No.
Mr. McKENZIE. Did he tell you what the part that he was looking for was
to be used with or for?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; because I didn't ask him.
Mr. McKENZIE. Did he tell you that he was looking for a part for a gun?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, it was for a gun, because he asked for it, you
know, that part. He came in because I had a gunsmith sign on the street
and there had been one there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; he didn't tell me that.
Mr. LIEBELER. How did you know that he came in because you had a
gunsmith sign on the door?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, I presume that because he asked for a gun part.
Mr. LIEBELER. And what part did he ask for?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. How did you know it was a part for a gun?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, I just knew it was--whatever he asked for was,
you know, pertaining to a gun, but as far as what it was, I don't know.
I didn't pay that much attention to it because I had people coming in
every day asking for something for a gun.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you it was a part for a gun?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I knew that it was at that time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that it was?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. That it was?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; he didn't tell me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he mention guns?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. We didn't talk about it. We didn't talk about it--when
I told him I didn't have the gunsmith, that he had moved, that he was
no longer there and when I told him we no longer had a gunsmith we
didn't talk about what he wanted any more.
Mr. McKENZIE. To the best of your recollection, and that's based on
your conversation with Mrs. Hunter, the part that he asked for was a
plunger?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, to the best of my recollection it was, but I
wouldn't say definitely that he asked for a plunger.
Mr. McKENZIE. Do you recognize that a plunger is a part of a gun?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I wouldn't unless somebody told me that it was.
Mr. McKENZIE. Well, you say you recognized the part that he asked for
as being a part of a gun?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.
Mr. McKENZIE. He didn't mention to you a gun part at that time, did he,
or did he?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, he asked in such a way that I knew he was seeking
the gun shop and not the furniture store.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was the word "gun" ever used?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; it was, because I told him the gunsmith had moved.
Mr. McKENZIE. And what did he say then, please, ma'am?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. He turned around and he looked at me. He was standing
practically in the front or in the middle of the store and he turned
and I had furniture all around me--dinette suites over on this side and
there was living room furniture to this side, and in front of him there
was living room furniture and bedroom furniture and he said, "You have
furniture?" I said, "Yes."
He said, "I'm going to need some in about 2 weeks," and I said, "All
right, I'll be glad to show you some."
He turns and walks out the door that he came in and took whatever he
had in his hand back in the car and that's when Mrs. Oswald followed
him back in and he got back in the store before she did.
Mr. McKENZIE. Did you hear them talking together?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I never did hear her utter one word.
Mr. McKENZIE. Did he say anything to her?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. He never said anything to her other than he might have
glanced at her and I thought that they were exchanging glances, you
know. She didn't utter a word.
Mr. McKENZIE. And he didn't utter a word to her?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Not to her--but to me.
Mr. McKENZIE. Now, he said he was going to need some furniture in
approximately 2 weeks?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.
Mr. McKENZIE. At that time did you ask him where he was living?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I asked him if he was living at an apartment and he
said, "Yes."
Mr. McKENZIE. Did he tell you where?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. No.
Mr. McKENZIE. Did he tell you where he was moving to?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; he hadn't got that place yet.
Mr. McKENZIE. Did he ask you if you delivered?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; we didn't get that far along.
Mr. McKENZIE. I see. He didn't like the piece of furniture that you
showed to him, is that it?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I probably didn't have what he was looking for. We
talked about not having it.
Mr. McKENZIE. Well, in any event, he didn't seek to buy any of the
furniture that you showed him?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. No.
Mr. McKENZIE. Did he state what he was looking for, did he tell you
what he was looking for?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I asked him what kind of furniture that he was looking,
and I suggested furnitures to him if he bought new furniture. I said,
"Do you like Early American, or do you like Danish Modern?" And we
exchanged those words and he never uttered what he liked or anything.
He didn't say what he liked.
Mr. McKENZIE. Now, Mrs. Whitworth, there had been a gun shop in that
particular location before you moved in with your furniture store?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I leased one corner of my store to a gunsmith.
Mr. McKENZIE. And what was his name?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. His name was Warren Graves.
Mr. LIEBELER. Does he still operate a gun shop?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; he doesn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Does he still live in the Irving area?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. He still lives in Irving.
Mr. McKENZIE. Had you had any previous experience with guns?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Other than just seeing guns in that little corner of
the building, it seems like, and you know, hearing conversations on
guns, but I knew nothing about guns.
Mr. McKENZIE. Well, did you know anything about the various
nomenclature or the various parts of a gun?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I didn't.
Mr. McKENZIE. But you did recognize that a plunger was a part of a gun
when this man came in?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, in the way that he asked for it, I knew that it
was a gun part that he wanted because I didn't have it.
Mr. McKENZIE. In what way did he ask for it, explain what you mean by
that?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. As well as I can remember, I told him we didn't have a
gunsmith and he asked for this part and I don't remember really just
what he asked for, but whatever it was, it led me to know that he
wanted a gunsmith, which we didn't have.
Mr. McKENZIE. Were you in the front of the store when he came in?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; I was in the cash stand.
Mr. McKENZIE. Was Mrs. Hunter still sitting there on the platform chair?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. She was sitting there in the front.
Mr. McKENZIE. And how far away was she from you when he came in?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I was behind the stand, which I guess that was probably
4 or 5 feet in squares and I would have had to have gotten out of the
stand and walked clear around and Mrs. Hunter, I imagine, was probably
8 feet from me.
Mr. McKENZIE. Was she as close to you as I am now--just directly
across, I mean?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.
Mr. McKENZIE. About the same distance that we are apart now?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. There was a counter between us.
Mr. McKENZIE. And we are about 8 feet apart now, aren't we?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.
Mr. McKENZIE. When the man came in, was there anyone else in the store
other than Mrs. Hunter and yourself?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I don't believe there was anyone in the store but Mrs.
Hunter and myself. Now, there was probably someone on the outside.
Mr. McKENZIE. Now, if I may direct this question to Mrs. Hunter; Mrs.
Hunter, do you recall any of the conversation that you heard Mrs.
Whitworth testify about this morning?
Mrs. HUNTER. Well, when he drove up in the car and I thought it was my
friends from Houston and when I seen it wasn't, I sat back down in the
chair and he went down to the door on that end of the building and went
in and he asked her, he says, "Where is your gunsmith?"
I remember that and he had something--I won't say just what it was,
because I wasn't particularly interested. I wasn't in her being down
there at the time. She told him that the gunsmith was moved--that he
wasn't there, and she showed him down the street where to go to.
Mr. McKENZIE. Where did she tell him to go?
Mrs. HUNTER. Well, now, I don't know, but it was back down east on
Irving Boulevard.
Mrs. WHITWORTH. There was a gunsmith or a sports shop or something back
down there.
Mrs. HUNTER. There was a sport shop down there where she showed him to
go. I remember that much of it.
Mr. McKENZIE. You said this man got out of the car and came to the
other door, the door back to the back?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. He came to the west door.
Mrs. HUNTER. I believe if I could draw a picture of it I could explain
it better that way.
[The witness proceeded to draw while testifying.] There's a partition
right here and there are table and chairs right back in here, and over
here is where her telephone is and where her table and there's a little
counter right back in here, right back down this way, and right back
here was the gunsmith where he had that leased, and all of this back
here was furniture and this partition over here--these little tables
and chairs over here--that looked kinda like a cafe where you would
sit, at the tables and all. Over here, all there was was used clothes
and things.
Mr. McKENZIE. Where is the door?
Mrs. HUNTER. Now, this is a door where I was sitting in the chair right
here looking out and he come in by this door right over here and come
up to where her counter was. I was sitting right here in the chair and
she comes back out here and looks down this way and showed him which
way to go to where this gunsmith was and when he goes back to the
car and put what he had in his hand--he went back to the car for the
purpose of that, and when he come back in, he come back in this way.
When she got out with the children, she come in this door right here
that I had got up and opened after I sat down there.
Mr. McKENZIE. That would be the east door?
Mrs. HUNTER. Well, yes; I guess so, and she walked on around and I just
sat back down and I didn't pay her any attention or anything and they
had gone back into the back here and she walked on along right along in
here and the little girl was pulling, hanging on to her dress tail and
she either told her to be quiet or said "shhh" or something like that,
and that is the only thing that I heard the woman say.
Well, he goes back and goes back and gets in the car and she followed
him out--she put the little girl in the car, then she got in the car,
and he didn't offer to help her no way putting the babies in the car
and he was talking to her and looking back down this way and he turned
and when he pointed, I said, "You can't go back down that way, it's a
one way street. You will have to go up here to the red light and turn
to your left and come back around."
Mr. McKENZIE. When you told him that, where were you standing?
Mrs. HUNTER. I was standing right in this door here.
Mr. McKENZIE. Right at the curb?
Mrs. HUNTER. No; the car was--let's say it was about like this, because
there is a porch or a thing with a top over it, you know, and he
catercornered down this way and I was right over here [indicating].
Mr. McKENZIE. Now, at that time when you were standing in the doorway
and he had gotten in the car and you told him he could not go that way,
where was Mrs. Oswald sitting?
Mrs. HUNTER. She was in the car by him and the little girl was standing
up in the seat between them and she had the tiny baby in her hands.
Mr. McKENZIE. And was it a two-door automobile or a four-door
automobile?
Mrs. HUNTER. Well, I wouldn't say as to that, but I believe it was a
two-door, but I wouldn't swear to it.
Mr. McKENZIE. And he was behind the wheel?
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.
Mr. McKENZIE. And she was sitting next to him?
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.
Mr. McKENZIE. With the child between them?
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.
Mr. McKENZIE. And there was no one else in the car other than the baby?
Mrs. HUNTER. If it was, they was down in the floorboard of the car and
when he started out, he pulled out back that way, and I said, "Don't
go back that way, it's a one-way street." I said, "Go down to the red
light."
Mr. McKENZIE. What did he say then?
Mrs. HUNTER. He didn't say anything; he didn't thank me nor nothing.
Mr. LIEBELER. But from where you were standing you could see him drive
the automobile out into Irving Boulevard, going down to the next red
light where he made a turn and drove out of sight; isn't that right?
Mrs. HUNTER. Well, he went down Irving Boulevard--I told him to go to
the red light, but she wasn't interested in what he was going to buy at
all.
Mr. LIEBELER. In any event, you saw them drive out of the area?
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes; I sure did.
Mr. LIEBELER. And they were driving west?
Mrs. HUNTER. I'll stake my life on that, that's how positive I am to it.
Mr. LIEBELER. He was driving the right way down the street?
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Could this car have been an Oldsmobile?
Mrs. HUNTER. No, sir; it was a Ford--it was just like the one that my
friends had in Houston.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are sure it wasn't a foreign car of any kind?
Mrs. HUNTER. Oh, no; no.
Mr. LIEBELER. It was a Ford?
Mrs. HUNTER. It was a 1957--I think it was a 1957 Ford instead of a
1958.
Mr. McKENZIE. Blue and white?
Mrs. HUNTER. Blue and white--yes, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. Blue on the bottom and white on the top?
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes, sir; I think I've got a picture of the car that my
friends--the one that I was waiting for. Could I ask her a question?
[Addressing Marina Oswald.] Don't you have a rinse on your hair now?
*Mrs. OSWALD. A rinse--yes. My hair is dark--not too dark.
Mrs. HUNTER. A dirty blonde.
*Mrs. OSWALD. Well, thank you.
Mrs. HUNTER. Like his [indicating Mr. Liebeler].
Mr. McKENZIE. I don't have any more questions. Mrs. Whitworth, we
certainly do thank you and Mrs. Hunter, we certainly do thank you very
much.
Mrs. HUNTER. How soon are you going to be through with us--the reason
I want to know--I am going to be out of town next week. [Addressing
Marina Oswald.] It's nice I met you in person now and your babies are
very sweet.
(At this point Mrs. Whitworth and Mrs. Hunter left the hearing room.)
Mr. McKENZIE. Marina, do you remember a blue and white car?
*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know--what kind of car did Mrs. Paine have?
Mr. McKENZIE. Do you know what kind of car Mr. Paine had?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I don't.
Mr. McKENZIE. What kind of car did Mrs. Paine have?
*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know that either, but all the time Mrs. Paine,
she take me to the store.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Gregory, what do you do in Fort Worth?
Mr. GREGORY. I am a petroleum engineer.
Mr. McKENZIE. And are you on your own over there?
Mr. GREGORY. Well, half of my time is my own and the other half of my
time is with a company on salary, and I am chairman of an engineering
committee.
Mr. LIEBELER. I believe you have previously testified, Marina, that
the only time Lee came up to the Paine's, except on the weekends, in
Irving, was on Thursday night, November 21, 1963?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; he was all the time there on weekends for the 5th or
the 3d of November or September?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; I was trying to figure out what day in the week
that he was there when you all were supposed to have been in this
store--it would be Wednesday or Thursday, but Lee was never in Irving
on Wednesday or Thursday at any time; is that right.
Mrs. OSWALD. Just one time when he came to see me the night before the
assassination.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are absolutely sure about that?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, sure, if you don't believe me, ask Mrs. Paine. You
know, if he has a job--maybe--he don't have a job then?
Mr. McKENZIE. At the time when he didn't have a job, did he come?
*Mrs. OSWALD. November he had a job.
Mr. McKENZIE. But when he didn't have a job, did he come out there
during the week other than weekends.
*Mrs. OSWALD. He spent 2 days on one occasion during the week when he
had no job.
*Mrs. OSWALD. He had job at that time in November.
Mr. McKENZIE. Now, before Rachel was born, did he come during the week?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; I remember that only once he came--only once before
Rachel was born during the week.
Mr. McKENZIE. After Rachel was born at Parkland Hospital, did he come
during the week up until the time he got a job?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't come to Irving during the week at any time
after Rachel was born, as a matter of fact, except on Thursday night?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Rachel was born either Saturday night or Sunday.
Mr. LIEBELER. October the 20th?
*Mrs. OSWALD. When Rachel was born?
Mr. GREGORY. She wants to say what day of the week--it was either the
19th or 20th of October, but she wants to know the day of the week.
Mr. LIEBELER. Sunday.
*Mrs. OSWALD. He was at home the weekend before Rachel was born. He
sent me to the hospital Sunday night at 9 o'clock.
*Mrs. OSWALD. Well, he go working the next morning and he come to see
Ruth Paine and she take him to the hospital to see me and baby and he
spent the night in her house.
Mr. LIEBELER. What day did Lee come to see you in the hospital, do you
remember?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Monday.
Mr. LIEBELER. And on Monday night he stayed at Ruth Paine's house; is
that right?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And then you went home the next morning?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; to Ruth Paine's. Lee was at work and Ruth Paine take
me from the hospital.
Mr. McKENZIE. You were in the hospital Sunday, Monday, and left Tuesday?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I was just Sunday night--I was one and a half
days--34 hours or 36 hours or something like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, that on Monday, October 21, Lee came to Irving after
work?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And came to the hospital to see you with Mrs. Paine?
*Mrs. OSWALD. With Mrs. Paine.
Mr. LIEBELER. And stayed at Mrs. Paine's house that night and went back
to work on Tuesday morning?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And he did not come to the hospital at any other time or
to take you home; is that right?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. After Rachel was born and after Lee had been there on
Monday to see you, did he come back to Irving at any time during the
week except the night before the assassination?
Mrs. OSWALD. No; he came to Irving only the weekends--only on weekends.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, before the time that Rachel was born, you said that
he came to Irving during the week and spent 2 days before he got his
job; was that just after he came back from Mexico?
Mrs. OSWALD. He spent 1 day in Irving after he came back from Mexico,
and the following day he went to look for work and he was looking for
work all week long and returned to Irving on Saturday.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he come to work during the week at any time after he
got his job and up until Rachel was born, except on weekends?
Mrs. OSWALD. As I remember--not.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let's take a short recess for lunch, and we will resume
at 1:30 p.m.
(Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m., the proceeding was recessed.)