The testimony of Edith Whitworth was taken at 5 p.m., on July 22, 1964,
in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan
and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant
counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you stand and take the oath, please?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney on the
staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of
President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the
Commission pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order No.
11130, dated November 29, 1963, and by joint resolution of Congress No.
137.
Under the Commission's rules relating to the taking of testimony by
the Commission, you are entitled to have an attorney present at this
or any other hearing at which you may appear before the Commission
and you are entitled to 3-days' notice of your appearance here. You
are also entitled to exercise the usual privileges with regard to
self incrimination and so forth as far as not answering questions is
concerned. I assume that since you are here without an attorney, that
you do not wish to have your attorney present at the session. In fact,
very few witnesses do have their attorneys present. Am I correct in
that understanding?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, I assume that--I don't see any use of me having
one.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your name for the record?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. My name is Edith Whitworth.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I live at 315 South Jefferson, Irving, Tex.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you are married; is that correct?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many children do you have?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I have two.
Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately how old are they?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. My daughter is 24 years old and my son 19 years old.
Mr. LIEBELER. When were they born?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. My daughter was born May 13, 1940, and my son was born
May 20, 1945.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your daughter is also married, is she not?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; she is.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is her married name?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Her married name--her husband's name is Bobby Gene
Hollaway, and her name is Joyce.
Mr. LIEBELER. It's spelled [spelling] H-o-l-l-a-w-a-y, is that correct?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do they have any children?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. They have two children.
Mr. LIEBELER. How old are they, and when were they born?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. The first one--Bryan will be 3 years old the 20th of
October, I think I'm right on that; and the other one was born the 10th
day of last October--he will be 1 year old.
Mr. LIEBELER. The youngest one was born when?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Wait--I said the 20th of October--I believe that oldest
one is the 28th of October--I am sorry.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is the name of the older child?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Bryan Douglas.
Mr. LIEBELER. You say he was born on what date?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I believe it was October 28.
Mr. LIEBELER. What year?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. And he will be 3 years old this October--he was 2 last
year--that will be 1961, wouldn't it?
Mr. LIEBELER. The other child's name is what?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Jeffery Lynn. He was born October 10, 1963. You got
me on those birthdays--I have forgotten them. I believe October 28 is
right--I'm not just real sure.
Mr. LIEBELER. It is my understanding that you formerly operated a used
furniture store in Irving, Tex.; is that right?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; I did until about the 25th day of January of this
year.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was the name of that store?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Furniture Mart.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where was it located?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. 149 East Irving Boulevard.
Mr. LIEBELER. Irving Boulevard runs east and west, does it not?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; it does.
Mr. LIEBELER. Which side of the street is the furniture store on?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. That would be on the right-hand side going west.
Mr. LIEBELER. Going away from Dallas or toward Dallas?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Going west.
Mr. LIEBELER. That would be the north side?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. The north side; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI has advised us that you have told them that
some time during 1963, you believe that Lee Harvey Oswald was in your
furniture store; is that right?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; it is.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell me all the circumstances surrounding that
event, to the best of your recollection?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, as far as the date, I couldn't, you know, say
that it was any day--any special day, but it was along the first of
November. We had, you know, a discussion about the babies--that's the
reason you have that there about my baby--my grandchildren, and their
children. They had the baby with them at that time. We had at one time
had a gun shop in there. We had a gunsmith sign out in front and I
presume he had came up and saw that sign there and he stopped and came
in. We have two doors in this place of business--one was on the west
side and the west end, and one on the east end. He had pulled up there
at the front as well as I remember and he walked around his car and
came into the west door.
Mr. LIEBELER. You saw him drive up in the car?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; because it was all glass in front and I was
sitting at the--well, it's the cash stand--we call it there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Which direction was he driving the car at that time?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. He was driving west on a one-way street--that's a one
way there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Running from east to west?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. East to west.
Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of a car did he have, Mrs. Whitworth?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, as far as I can remember--I wouldn't be--I
wouldn't say for sure. All I can say is that I believe, you know, not
paying a lot of attention to the car and the car not meaning anything
at that time, that it was a two-tone blue and white. It was either a
Ford or a Plymouth. Now, I wouldn't swear to that, but it was either
one--the car didn't mean anything to me at that time. Anyway, he came
in and he stood----
Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask you some questions about the car first--how
many people were in the car when you saw it drive up?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I didn't pay any attention to it--just really when it
drove up out there. When I did pay attention to it was when he got back
in it, you know, and it was faintly, you know. As to them getting back
in it, I wouldn't say that there was anyone else in it--I wouldn't say
that they were the only ones that was in it. They were the only ones
that come in the store.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you notice specifically that Oswald was driving?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I wouldn't say that he was, and I wouldn't say that
he drove off in the car. I wouldn't say that, because, like I say, it
didn't mean anything to me at that time, just faintly, I would say that
that car was blue and white, two-tone, and that it was either a Ford or
a Plymouth--now, I wouldn't swear to that.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, he drove up in front of the store and he got out of
the car and came in--which door--did he come in?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. He came in the west door.
Mr. LIEBELER. He came in the west door?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. West door; he came in and he stood right in front of
me there, and I arose up out of my chair and asked him, you know, if
I could help him and he asked for something for a gun, and he had
whatever this was wrapped up and it was about so long, as well as I
can remember, not paying too much attention to it at that time, but
we didn't have the gunshop in there then. It had gone out of business
and I told him, no, I didn't have anything there, and whatever he was
looking for--that I didn't have it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, when you say, "so long," you held your hands up and
how many inches was that--would you hold your hands up again?
Mrs. WHITWORTH [indicating]. I would say it was about like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many inches do you think that is?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, I would say about 15 inches.
Mr. LIEBELER. About 15 inches?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. That's what I would say. You know, just judging it.
It could have been longer and it could have been shorter, but it was
wrapped up, I know that.
Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't have occasion to open it up for you while he
was in the store?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did he ask you about a specific part for it?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; he did. But I don't know what it was because I
didn't pay any attention to it because it was something, you know, for
a gun and I couldn't help him, so I didn't pay any attention to it, you
know, because I never worked in a gunshop anyway and I know nothing
about guns whatever.
Mr. LIEBELER. How come he came into this used furniture shop looking
for a gun part?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, I had a sign--I mean, I had had a gun shop in
there, a man had leased part of my store and he had a gunshop in there,
one part of it, but he had been moved for quite a while, but the sign
hadn't been taken down.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, there was still a sign on the front of the building
saying that there was a gunshop there?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead and tell me what are the other circumstances?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. And when I told him that I didn't have anything--I
didn't have what he was looking for, but I probably told him where
he could go get it. I don't remember that I did, but I usually would
tell someone where they could go to get such a thing and he turned
around and he looked and he realized, I guess, that it was a furniture
store and he said, "You have furniture in here?" I said, "Yes, I do."
He says, "I'm going to need some in a couple of weeks or so," and I
said, "Well, I'll be glad to show you what I have." I had new and
used furniture and he wanted bedroom furniture, he told me that, and
he turned--he went back to the car and came back in and when he came
back in his wife followed him in with the young baby and the little
girl and we walked straight to the back of the building where I had
the bedroom suites and I showed him the bedroom suites and I told him
about the bedroom suites and I noticed that he would look over to her
and she would never--she never uttered a word and I thought she didn't
like what I had and was uninterested, because I didn't, you know, high
pressure them to sell them.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were they interested in new furniture or used furniture?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, I never did get that far along to find out, you
know, what they wanted, because she acted like she wasn't interested,
you know, and I couldn't talk to him and he was the only one saying
anything, and then we got talking about the babies.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was that conversation about?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, we was comparing the birthdays of the children
and my grandchildren had birthdays kind of similar to theirs, you
know, and so it went even so far as to--I said, "Well, we wanted a
little girl. We wanted one of ours to be a little girl." He said, he
wanted one of his to be a little boy and just jokingly, I said, "Well,
let's just swap then." And, he kind of smiled but she still didn't
say anything, didn't even offer to show us the baby. We didn't know
then, you know, that she couldn't even speak, or probably couldn't
understand what we said, so she walked clear away from us and we walked
back toward the front of the building there and she walked out ahead
of him--the little girl was right in front of her, you know, and this
was the older little girl, and they went on to the car and the little
girl was kind of whining and at one time I thought--well, I'll offer
her a piece of candy. I had candy in there, you know, but I never did,
I never did offer them any candy and they went on off, but it was them
just as sure as I'm sitting here--I'm sure it was him and her too.
Mr. LIEBELER. In this conversation about the babies, did they tell
you--did this man tell you when his little baby had been born?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; it was 2 weeks old.
Mr. LIEBELER. It was 2 weeks old at that time?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And he told you it was 2 weeks old?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you the date on which the baby was born?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. He probably did at that time, but I don't know--the
date on that kind of corresponded with the date of the birthday of my
oldest grandson there.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have no recollection as to whether or not he told
you the date or not; is that correct? Or you just don't remember the
date--do you remember whether he told you or not?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I'm sure that he told me. I just don't remember the
date.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you by saying, "Well, the baby is 2 weeks
old," or did he tell you specifically that the baby was born on such
and such a date; do you remember?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I wouldn't swear to it, but I'm pretty sure he
told me the date at that time but the baby was 2 weeks old and I judge
that he would have been in the store around the 4th, 5th, or 6th of
November, because we were fixing to go to a ball game, this lady and
I, and I have a son that plays football for Irving High School and we
were going on to the football game and that's how come this lady to be
in there. You know, we were planning to go together or get tickets to
the football game and it had to be along in there--the first week in
November.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, do you remember a specific football game that you
were going to see; is that how you fixed the date as early in November?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us what ball game that would have been?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. It probably was Richland Hills that we were going to.
Mr. LIEBELER. Richland Hills was going to play who?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Irving, and we were going to Richland Hills--that's a
Fort Worth team.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you made any efforts, since this question came up,
to find out the exact date on which the Richland Hills team played the
Irving team, did you go back and look it up?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I probably did at one time, but I couldn't tell you
what the date was now, except that it was a Friday night. It was going
to be on Friday and it was before that Friday. Now, Mrs. Hunter might
be able to tell you that. I didn't go back and try to review anything
before I come over here. At that time, you know, I knew what game it
was, but I haven't reviewed it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did I understand you to say correctly that there was a
friend of yours that was in the store at the time they were there?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. That was Mrs. Hunter?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; Mrs. Hunter.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did I also understand you to say correctly that Mrs.
Hunter was there for the purpose of getting tickets to go to the
football game?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. We were planning a trip, you know, to this football
game.
Mr. LIEBELER. Does Mrs. Hunter ordinarily come into the store?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; she did--I had just begun to know her, you know,
and it all come about through school doings and all, and I usually got
her tickets or she got my tickets when we were going to travel to a
game or so.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you fix a day of the week any more specifically than
you have as to when this might have occurred?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I couldn't--no; I couldn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mrs. Hunter come in usually on a particular day or
did she just come in from time to time?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, she said she did--for some reason why or other,
but to me, I couldn't fix any certain day, you know, working in the
public like I did and all that. I couldn't, you know, not meaning
anything at that time--I couldn't put a date on it, you know, what
day she come or anything. Usually, the tickets would go on sale on a
Tuesday or Wednesday, if they were going to travel to play, and I have
my tickets to the home games, you know, and she could say what day it
was, but I couldn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was this particular ball game going to be played at
Richland Hills; is that right?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; it was.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you were talking about getting the tickets and were
going on over to Richland Hills?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. To this game.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you said Lee Oswald--the Oswalds were in your store
on the weekend preceding the game?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. It wasn't the weekend.
Mr. LIEBELER. During the week?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. During the week.
Mr. LIEBELER. Right; during the week preceding the weekend on which
Richland Hills played Irving.
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember being interviewed by two agents of the
FBI about the middle of December on this whole question?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. On a Saturday; yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; Saturday, December 14, 1963.
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I do remember; it was a Saturday that they came out.
Mr. LIEBELER. And do you remember the names of the agents?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I don't. They were just two tall fellows and I
don't even know the names--I didn't take them down and I didn't think
it was that important.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember telling those two men specifically that
when this man's wife came in, when Oswald's wife came in, that Oswald
told you that his youngest child had been born on October 20, 1963?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Probably so--somewhere, you know, it was along that
time, but you know it has been so long now that I have forgotten the
dates.
Mr. LIEBELER. And do you remember telling the FBI agents specifically
the date October 20, 1963?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I believe so. Now, like I say, I wouldn't swear to that
but if I told them, that's what he had told me. I haven't reviewed
this, like I say, before I come over here, so I'm just telling you what
I think absolutely is true--the truth.
Mr. LIEBELER. Right; and I want to try and find the state of your
recollection as to just what this man told you about the date of birth
of this young child, and if you remember specifically that he told you
that the child was born October 20, 1963, I want you to tell me that,
and if you can't remember that, I want you just to say that and it is
very important that you give me the exact state of your recollection on
that.
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Now, I'm not going to say that I remember him telling
me that because it has been too long ago, you know, it has been too
long back to say it was October 20--like when I come over here and you
asked me my grandson's birthday that I had forgotten and there is too
much that goes through my mind in that length of time. We talked about
it and I'm sure he told me the birthdays of the babies, but it has been
too long now and I wouldn't say that he told me October 20, but the
baby was 2 weeks old when he was in the store and it was the first week
in November that he was in the store and I don't know what date that
would have been that he was in the store.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anybody else in the store besides you and Mrs.
Hunter and this man Oswald and the wife and the two little children
during this time?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I don't believe there was. There was someone out in
front of the store, you know, there always was. I remember something
about that, but I wouldn't swear that there was anyone out there in
front, any particular person out in front, but there usually was two
or three men that kind of hung around there because that was on the
corner and had been the bus station and, you know, people just walk in
and walk out there, you know, and they ask for information for first
one thing and another, you know, in my store and I was always real good
about giving them information and like I probably told him where he
could go get the gun part he was looking for.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether you directed him to another
gunshop or not?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Just to be sure about it, I don't know now, but I'm
just almost sure that I did if he asked me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember where you told him to go?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. If I directed him, it would have been east of me,
probably at the Irving Sports Shop or even down on the highway at some
pawnshop or something like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know the man who owns the Irving Sports Shop?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; Woodrow Greener.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you known him?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Oh, I have known Woodrow for about 20 years, I guess.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you a good friend of his or close to him at all?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I wouldn't say real close--I just knew him. He had
been in and out of business there for a number of years and I have
lived in Irving all of my life, so I wouldn't say I was a real close
friend to him--I just know him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a young man by the name of Dial Ryder?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I didn't know Dial Ryder.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Ryder now; have you met him since that time?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I haven't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever discussed this series of events with Mr.
Greener?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; I did discuss it with Mr. Greener over the
telephone and Woodrow Greener was out of town. He said at that time he
probably was, but he was gone deer hunting, you know, he hunts, and he
and his wife were out of town at that time because we talked about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you talk to Mr. Greener about this; do you
remember?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. When the FBI men came out there and talked to me on the
Saturday.
Mr. LIEBELER. On that same Saturday?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you never had any discussion with Mr. Greener at
any time about this at all prior to the time in November when the FBI
talked to you; is that right?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Not until the FBI talked to me, you know, I didn't talk
to him or anything, but I called Woodrow on the telephone and told him
and the FBI men were in his store at that time when I called him and
that was the only time he told me, but I don't think I was even in town
at that time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you read the newspaper, generally speaking?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Which newspapers do you read?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, I take them all--I read them all. I take the
Dallas Morning News and I take the Times Herald out of Dallas and then
I have the Irving papers too and I read them all.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that shortly after the assassination,
around Thanksgiving time, as a matter of fact, there was a story in the
Dallas Times Herald to the effect that Oswald had had some work done on
his rifle in the Irving Sports Shop?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; I read that and I also saw it on television.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you saw that, it was also reported on television; is
that right?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; it sure did. As well as I can remember it, it
showed this Ryder, or whatever his name was, working around there and
talking to the men.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who was the first person you ever discussed Oswald's
presence in your store with?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I never discussed it until I saw him on television and
also his wife. First, when I saw him on television I told my husband,
but my husband didn't work in the store, then, he worked at another
furniture store on down on the east end of the road, you know, and I
told him, I said, "Why, I have seen the fellow somewhere before," and
it didn't dawn on me at that minute where. He says, "Well, you have
probably seen him in the store." Just like that. I mean, anybody would
come through Irving and be looking for anything like that would more
than likely stop in my store quicker than they would any other place.
Mr. LIEBELER. Looking for furniture, you mean?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, if he was looking for a gun or anything like that
he would stop in there because this sign was a real good sign, you
know, it was and out there, and also it was a good furniture location.
So he said "You probably have," and we didn't discuss it any more until
we saw her on television, Mrs. Oswald, and she was leaving the jail or
something, with her mother-in-law and had these two babies. I said,
"Oh, yes, I remember them real well," and I discussed it again with him
and I told him about this and I said that those kids are about the age
of Bryan and Jeff and we discussed it again and then I knew definitely
he had been in there and I knew that he was the fellow that I talked
to, and I said, "Well, he seemed to be such a nice man." He even
thanked me for my time when he walked out--you know, he thanked me for
the time I had spent with him, more so than anyone else. I mean, very
few people will thank anyone for their time in a store like that, you
know, but he did. He thanked me for his time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Isn't it a fact that a newspaper reporter came into your
store one day and talked to you about this?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. A lady.
Mr. LIEBELER. When was that?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. She was before the FBI men came and talked to me and I
don't have her name, but one of the FBI men called me and asked me if I
remembered her name and I don't. The only thing, she came in a little
foreign car and another gentleman was driving the car for her and she
showed me her credentials, just who she was, and she told me she was a
White House correspondent.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you remember her name if I suggested it to you?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I don't know whether I would or not.
Mr. LIEBELER. How about Coleman, does that seem familiar to you?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Might have been.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember when she came by, was that after you had
seen Ryder on television telling about Oswald?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; that was before.
Mr. LIEBELER. It was before?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; it was before.
Mr. LIEBELER. And did you tell this lady reporter the same story you
told us--exactly?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; and she took it down at that time and this
gentleman that was with her, he had a tape recorder and he took down
everything that I said.
Mr. LIEBELER. They took it down on a tape recorder?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; he sure did, and she wrote it down in a little
notebook, you know, but she accidentally stopped in the store. I had
never told anyone, you know, had ever made the statement to anybody
that he was in there. Of course, it was discussed, I'm sure, to people
that I knew, you know, I said, "Well, I had seen him," but there are a
lot of people in Irving I'm sure that had seen him and his wife both.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did it occur to you after you became aware of the fact
that Oswald had been in your store asking for some repairs about a gun
that you should call the FBI or the Dallas Police Department and tell
them about this?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; it really didn't. I just figured I would wait and
see if anybody got to looking for him. I didn't contact anyone. I
waited until they contacted me. I didn't know where I could be any help
to them at all.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, the Oswalds walked out of the store?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And then you said Mrs. Oswald, I believe, and the
children went out first; is that right?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. They were ahead of him.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long was Oswald in the store--how long did he stay in
the store after they left?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, he followed them right on out, but they were in
line. She started out before he did, with the children, and the little
girl--the little 2-year-old, you know, was ahead of all of them and
I had a little stepoff there and the mother kind of waited until she
stepped off of that, but Oswald himself never did help her with the
children or anything like that while she was in the store, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. And during the time they were in the store she didn't say
one word?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. She never uttered one word that I knew about. I
caught him at one time looking at her and I kind of felt like they
were exchanging glances or something like that, you know, but she
never uttered one word, either whether she liked it or whether she
didn't like it, and I made the remark after they left, after we talked
about trading the children, you know, jokingly, and I said to Mrs.
Hunter, "Well, I don't think she liked what I said about trading those
children," and she didn't offer to show us the baby.
Mr. LIEBELER. You made quite a fuss over the children, I presume?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; I am a great hand to notice children. I just
really am, you know, and I always felt like it was one way to get in
touch with the customer--is to brag on the children, you know. The
closer you get to them the better off you are when you are trying to
sell them something, and really, I was, you know, interested in selling
him furniture when he told me he needed it.
Mr. LIEBELER. How about this little 3-year-old girl, did she seem to be
an ordinarily developed girl---she could walk around and everything?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; she was pretty.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she say anything at all?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. She mumbled--as she went out of the store she was about
halfway crying, not really crying, but mumbling something. I couldn't
understand her or anything, and that's the reason that at one time
I thought--well, I'll hand her a piece of candy, but then I didn't
because a lot of people don't like you to give their children candy and
the woman hadn't been friendly enough with me to make me really want
to, but I really would have liked to have given the little girl some
candy. She was a beautiful little child.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did the little girl say anything you could understand at
all?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; she just kind of whined like, you know, it might
have been that she was a little cowed or something--I don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, as they walked out of the store, did you see them
get in the car?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I probably did, but I didn't pay much attention to
them--to remember how they did--I didn't--it was just like anybody
else walking out of the store, you know, I didn't see them get in the
car. I'm sure they got in a car and I just faintly remember that maybe
that that car was a two-tone car and that they got in there and drove
off and like I say, I don't know how they got into the car, because I
didn't pay too much attention to them.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see where they went when they got in the car?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I didn't pay too much attention. Mrs. Hunter said they
went back the wrong way down the street.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't see that?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I probably saw it but I didn't--I wouldn't say that
they did because I don't know. So many people pull that stunt anyway
and it was just everyday, you know, people make mistakes on that street
all the time about going the wrong way and I had seen numbers of them
going the wrong way and if they did go, the wrong way, you know, I
don't remember it.
Mr. LIEBELER. It wasn't such an extraordinary thing to have that happen?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; but what was, you know, out of the ordinary
person--not talking. I'm friendly--I'm just a real friendly person and
going on over the babies--I would have liked to have looked at the
baby and all. That was what stuck with me more than anything else, you
know, the way she acted and him too. He was nothing out of the ordinary
except that he thanked me for his time, you know, that he had taken,
and I suggested furniture to him and tried to find out what kind they
were looking for and they weren't quite ready for it and it was going
to be a couple of weeks before they moved out and he told me that they
were living in an apartment.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did he tell you about that?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I asked him. So many people would come in the store,
you know, to buy furniture you know, and try to get it as cheap as they
could because they were living in a furnished apartment, so I usually
asked them if they were in apartments or something, and he told me they
were and I know they wanted bedroom furniture, because I took them back
there and showed them bedroom furniture. They also had to have living
room furniture and I asked him what type of furniture and I said,
"So many people are using Early American or Danish Modern." I mean,
young people were using a lot of that Danish Modern and I couldn't
get anything out of her even after suggesting that and I thought if I
suggested that that they would tell me what they were looking for, but
I never did find out.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say where they lived?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. But he said they were living in an apartment?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. They were living in an apartment--yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you hear subsequent to that time on television
that Oswald and his wife weren't living together?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I heard, yes; you know--after the assassination, I
mean, but even at that time I never asked him his name or anything
like that. If I had carried out what I usually do, I would have gotten
his name, because if they are looking for anything that I don't
have--didn't have in the store, I would suggest that they let me give
them a card, you know, to go to the wholesale house. Had I given them
a card to the wholesale house, he would have had to give me his name.
You see, I didn't get that far along on it. I mean, you know, and I
just didn't--I wished I had now, but she sure was with him, whether she
knew where she was going or what she was doing or anything, but she
certainly was with him. Even, you know, her dress and all--as far as
telling you what color she had on--I could tell you just about how she
was dressed. She looked clean but she looked like she was a person that
had gotten in the car to come up to town for something and she probably
come out of the house with just the dress she had on and a short coat,
and the little girl had on some kind of a short coat. It wasn't really
cold--it wasn't real cold then and he had on slacks. He didn't have on
what I call really work clothes--he wasn't dressed--but he had on a
pair of slacks.
Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of shirt did he have on?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. It was a sport coat, I think, with the collar turned
back and he had on a sweater, you know, deal. They weren't dressed,
you know, really dressed, but they were dressed good enough to go out,
you know, to kind of casual shop or something like that--that kind of
shopping.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you absolutely sure that they drove up at first in an
automobile and that they went back out and got into an automobile and
drove away?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; they did.
Mr. LIEBELER. The report that I have of the interview you had with the
FBI agents in December indicates that you told them that they went out
of the store and got into the car and made a =U=-turn and drove off
east down Irving Boulevard.
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember telling them that?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, where I got that--I wouldn't swear that they
really went down, you know, turned their car there--Mrs. Hunter told me
that they did, you know, and kind of reviewed me at that time, but so
many people did that anyway that they went back down the wrong way.
It has been so long now I have, you know, really forgotten whether they
did or not, but you know, the color of the car and the make of the car
stands out more to me than anything. There was only one correct way for
them to go and that was west.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't at any time see anybody else with them?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I wouldn't swear to it.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't see anybody?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I didn't see anyone--no. They didn't get out of the
car, let me put it that way.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see the car close enough at any time to see
whether there was anybody else sitting in the car?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I could have seen it, but I didn't pay any attention to
it. They could have had a driver--I don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are sure it wasn't a station wagon that was sitting
out there?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I'm not sure--I'm really not, but it does not seem like
it was. Had I known all this was coming up I would have took it all
down, but you know, people--when you are in business, you don't pay
a lot of attention to that, but there are incidents that happen that
will, you know, be clear in your mind.
Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a picture that has been marked Pizzo Exhibit
No. 453-A, and I ask you if you recognize anybody in that picture?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I don't--no; I don't.
Mr. LIEBELER. I show you another photograph that has been marked Pizzo
Exhibit No. 453-B, and ask you if you recognize anybody in that picture?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I don't know this one either.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't recognize anybody in there either?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; not as far as I see it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, what about Bringuier Exhibit No. 1, do you see
anybody in there that looks familiar?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I couldn't identify anyone in there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, what about Garner Exhibit No. 1, does that person
look familiar to you?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; he does.
Mr. LIEBELER. That one does?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And is that the same man that came in the store that day?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; he looked younger in the store than he does there.
Of course, there's the shadow that's on him there that causes him to
look that way, but he does.
Mr. LIEBELER. Does that look like the man that came in the store--do
you have any doubt about it?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I don't have a doubt in the world but what it wasn't
him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I will show you this one--Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C.
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Now, that looks more like him--he was more pleasant
looking in the store than he is in these pictures here.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I show you a picture that has been marked Commission
Exhibit No. 171, and ask you if you recognize anybody in that picture?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Huh.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who do you recognize there?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Mrs. Oswald is there, I mean, his wife.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you think that's the woman that was in the store that
day?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; but of course she's not dressed there like she
was, but that's her and that's the little girl and the little girl
wasn't dressed like that either.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I will show you a photograph marked Commission
Exhibit No. 177 and I ask you if you recognize anybody in there?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, that's his wife there, isn't it?
Mr. LIEBELER. Does that look like the woman that was in the store?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; she was attractive even then, I mean, she was a
pretty girl then, of course, when she came in the store she wore her
hair just right back and had it in a pony tail back that way.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she have short hair or long hair?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. She had long hair and had enough that she could tie it
back here.
Mr. LIEBELER. What about that man sitting in the middle there of
Commission Exhibit No. 177, does he look familiar to you?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, yes; he kind of resembles him--yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Does that look something like the man that was in the
store?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; the one sitting there with her?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; here is another picture that has been marked as
Commission Exhibit No. 172, and I ask you if you recognize any of the
people in that picture?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. That's Mrs. Oswald there.
Mr. LIEBELER. What about the man? Does that man look like the man that
was there in the store?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, it resembles him. Of course, if I could see
him right in the face, you know, like I looked at him--the features
are---like him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; and in Exhibit No. 177, of course, he does present a
full face.
Mrs. WHITWORTH. That looks more like him there, you know, it really
does.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mrs. Whitworth, the testimony that you have given to
us about this event is of considerable importance to the Commission for
many reasons that are not, I'm sure, even clear to you at the moment.
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you be willing to come back again on Friday morning
and meet with Marina Oswald and the children to see if those really
were the people that were in your store?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. This Friday morning?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I like you to put it up early enough--I go to work at
12 on Friday and if you would make it real early, and I have another
appointment real early Friday morning that I could put off, I guess, or
maybe do it in the morning. I have an appointment to get my hair fixed
on Friday and I have that every Friday morning and I go to work at 12
and I would like for this not to interfere any more than is possible,
you know, with my job. I work for J. C. Penney's there in Plymouth Park
and they are real nice. They have given me time off because they had
to, you know, but I would rather it not interfere with that.
Mr. LIEBELER. What time would be convenient for you on Friday
morning--about 9 o'clock?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I would like to meet with her--that would be all right.
Really, I would like to meet with her one time, you know, to--of
course, I have only seen her on television and I saw her there at the
store and I would like for her to tell me that she went into that
store. I believe she would if she's telling what she did--she might not
recognize me now, you know, out of the store, but I believe that woman
would tell you that she went in that store if she saw that store. I
believe she would--that little girl, the oldest one, isn't she a dark
headed girl, and at that time she wore--she had her bangs cut.
Mr. LIEBELER. I don't know; I have never seen the little girl.
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, she was real attractive and I am attracted to
little girls, you know, I just love them. Of course, I love little
boys, too, you understand, because I've got one of them, but little
girls--mine--I used to sew for them and I have always wanted another
little girl and I always made over little girls more so than I did
little boys, that that little girl, as well as I remember, she had
straight hair and she had little bangs in the front and she was just a
real cute child, but I would really like to meet with them again and I
would like for her to tell me that she went in that store. She would
remember it; I'm sure that she would remember it. There isn't any doubt
in my mind but that she wasn't in there and him too.
Mr. LIEBELER. Then, we will meet with you again at 9 o'clock on Friday
morning.
Mrs. WHITWORTH. All right.
Mr. LIEBELER. By the way, how long would you say that the husband and
wife were in the store from the time that they came back in the second
time?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, 30 or 40 minutes--maybe.
Mr. LIEBELER. That was during the time that they were looking at
furniture?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; she didn't come in, now, until he went back to the
car.
Mr. LIEBELER. My question is: From the time that he went back out and
she came in, how long were the two of them in the store together?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I'd say 30 or 40 minutes, which is a long time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; and did she seem interested in any of the
furniture--what did she do during this 30 or 40 minute period?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, she walked back where we were and I had moved
some beds to show her, pulling them around and showing them to her, and
as well as I remember, I had a little red maple suite back there and
I had some dark walnut suites and I was showing them used furniture
because they looked like people that would buy used furniture and she
stood there and looked and, like I say, the little girl was whining
around and I would see him exchange glances at her, you know, kind of
look up and down but I never did see her--I never did catch her but I
thought they were exchanging glances at one another and she was not
interested and she walked back up and around in the other part of the
store and I stayed back there and I talked to him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have the feeling that there was any hostility
between these two people that they weren't getting along too well?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, she just didn't say anything. She wasn't
interested in what he was looking at, didn't look to be, you know,
and if they were--well--I just don't know, or I would say that there
was any misunderstanding--there wasn't any smiles and there wasn't any
jokes and neither one of them exchanged smiles. It wouldn't be like if
I was going out shopping and my husband was going to buy something for
me. I believe I would be more pleasant, but you know, I guess she just
didn't know what he was talking about, but we were looking at furniture
and I believe he went back to the car and told her to get out.
Mr. LIEBELER. She just didn't seem to be very interested in that
furniture?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; she didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever had any other occasion in the entire time
you have been running a furniture store, when a man and a wife came in
and spent 30 or 40 minutes looking at furniture in a store and they
never exchanged one single word between each other?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; not one single word.
Mr. LIEBELER. That just almost defies ordinary human experience;
doesn't it?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Wouldn't you say that--usually?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I never had anything like that. They usually agree
or disagree and they usually exchange a few words.
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; they usually exchange a few words.
Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I never had an occasion like that--that's the
reason it stood out to me like that more than anything else. I have
waited on a lot of people in 10 years and I have had an awful lot of
people come in my store. Some of them I would recognize and some of
them I wouldn't, but that incident just stood out and after all of
this--you just knew it was them.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would it refresh your recollection if I suggested that
Oswald, or this man that came into the store, was looking for a
plunger--did he tell you what he was looking for, that he was looking
for a plunger?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. It might have been a plunger. Like I say, I don't know
a thing in the world about guns. It could have been a plunger. We have
discussed that since then and I have never said what it was that he
was looking for--whatever he had--he had in his hands. I mean, he had
something in his hand.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you standing in the store when he walked out
and they got in the car?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I believe I walked back up to where my cash--in my
cash stand and it hit me about right here and I could lean on it and
my candy stand--I would have had to walk around another bar to have
gotten to the candy because I couldn't reach over and get it and I was
standing right like this and I was looking down on them and this bar
hit me about right here [indicating].
Mr. LIEBELER. About waist high?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. And I couldn't have went inside unless I had turned and
walked back around and that's as far as I got--was the cash register.
Mr. LIEBELER. Could you see the car from where you were standing?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I could have.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you actually see it drive east down Irving Boulevard
against the traffic?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I wouldn't say that I did see it drive east--I don't
believe--we talked about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who did?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, I might have made a statement one time about
that, but right now, I wouldn't say he did. There's too many cars that
drove up there that did go the wrong way, but I would say it was a blue
and white car and I have always said that it was a Ford or Plymouth--it
was something with fins on it.
Mr. LIEBELER. You say we discussed it--what do you mean by that--who is
"we"?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Mrs. Hunter and I, you know, now as far as going back
down the wrong way on that street--I wouldn't swear that the man did
and I don't think that I ever made the statement that he drove off,
because I don't know that he did.
Mr. LIEBELER. I quote the FBI report of your interview on December 14,
1963: "On leaving the Furniture Mart (second hand furniture store) the
Oswalds made a =U=-turn and left driving against traffic on East Irving
Boulevard in the direction of a gun repair shop in either a 1956 or
1957 two-tone blue and white Ford or Plymouth." Do you remember telling
the agents that?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I probably did and it might be fresher in my mind at
that time that they did go, but right now--I have talked with Mrs.
Hunter so much, that she was the one actually that said that they went
on the one way street the wrong way. Now, I might have said it at that
time, but right now, you know, it has been a good while since that
happened and not ever thinking anything would come of it--that I could
be more specific on what happened on the inside of the store than what
happened on the outside, because things like that happen every day, you
know, I mean on the outside, but no two people ever come in there and
acted like that for that length of time, you know, that I'm not going
to swear that he went the wrong way and I'm not going to say that he
drove that car off from there. Like I say, it wasn't that important to
me to know that at that time because I didn't know I was going to have
to--if I had--I would have been more specific about it, but I was in
a position where I could have seen it, but we remarked after he left
about what I had said and I got no comment about it from her, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. All right, thank you very much and we will see you Friday
morning.
Mrs. WHITWORTH. All right.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD, EDITH WHITWORTH, AND GERTRUDE
HUNTER
The testimony of Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald, Edith Whitworth, and Gertrude
Hunter was taken at 11 a.m., on July 24, 1964, in the office of the
U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets,
Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the
President's Commission. Present were June Oswald and Rachel Oswald,
children of Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald; William A. McKenzie and Henry Baer,
counsel for Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald; Peter Paul Gregory, interpreter;
and Forrest Sorrels and John Joe Howlett, special agents of the U.S.
Secret Service.
[Note.--The asterisk represents a response by Marina Oswald without
assistance of the interpreter. All other responses shown for Marina
Oswald were through the interpreter.]
Mr. LIEBELER. May the record show, Marina, that you have previously
been sworn as a witness when you appeared before the Commission in
Washington?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you will regard the testimony that you are going to
give here this morning as a continuation of the testimony you gave to
the Commission, and I assume you will regard yourself as being under
oath as you did before the Commission?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding that Marina has indicated
she will regard herself as being under a continuing oath?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. The basic purpose for your presence here this morning
relates to testimony that has been given by two ladies, Mrs. Whitworth
and Mrs. Hunter, who are outside, that you were in a furniture store
in Irving, Tex., in early November with your two children and with Lee
Harvey Oswald.